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Pikachoad
14-01-03, 15:09
Okay, tired of speculation and promises of information, Alexandros and I set out to prove this with a simple test.

Me: Monk, Int 100, Dex 40, Constr 110
Him: Spy, Int 100, Dex 100, Constr 110

We lom'd and removed implants until we had identical stats, as shown above, except for Dex.

Alexandos built:
Parashock Beam (TL 84): 87%
Tangent Plasma Cannon (TL 84): 87%
PB20 Drone (TL 102): 83%

Strych9 built:
Parashock Beam (TL 84): 77%
Tangent Plasma Cannon (TL 84): 77%
PB20 Drone (TL 102): 73%

Observations:

1. Dex DOES MATTER for quality. Now once you hit your quality cap it doesnt matter- everything is built as good as possible. The difference is that Dex is involved with deciding where that cap is. Alexandros capped all three items in quality at TL 110. I was obviously way off at TL 110.

2. This disproves that odd theory that Str influences Str weapons, Psi influences Psi, etc. as I had 100 Psi, and he had 20, and he still built the spell to a much better quality, and it was consistent with the differences observed on the other two builds. I knew that theory was false... but here is concrete proof.

So Granite- we know that Dex is involved with build quality. We know that once you hit your cap, everyone builds at the same quality- it just will take monks much longer to reach their cap. If you do contact the dev like you indicated you would, please let them know we are aware of this, and that all we want to know now is what factors deal with slot chances.

Toolie
14-01-03, 15:13
Thanks for taking the time to do the test. It'll help us all.

-Toolie

BarneyL
14-01-03, 15:30
Nice work, can I ask one thing, what if anything were the two characters dexterity sub skills, I've heard varying rumours that Dex subskills may effect the construction process also for things like willpower..
Obviously the perfect test would be the two characters with no other skill points spent other than the points in construction.

Barney

Pikachoad
14-01-03, 15:44
Well, those that started those rumors have since come to me and said that it was a red herring, and repair and such have nothing to do with it.

My Dex is capped at 35, had +5 from SS CPU, and 100% of my points where in repair. Alexandros can comment on his dex when he hits this thread.

My repair is 101. All other dex and int subskills are zero.

deac
14-01-03, 15:47
good work with the test

juvestar15
14-01-03, 15:50
It confuses me that when you construct you get dex and str points. Where as researching doesn't get either.

So maybe Construction needs str aswell?
Use all 3 str drugs and tell me what happens with quality.

I know it sounds stupid but so DID the dex factor before it was tested.

jernau
14-01-03, 15:53
Nice one - great test and vital info.

2 questions though :

1)
Originally posted by Pikachoad
Alexandros capped all three items in quality at TL 110. I was obviously way off at TL 110.
Are you sure he had capped? - The Drone is lower QL than the cannon and spell.

2) What were your xx/yy levels when the tests were run? Someone suggested the yy part may have an effect. Can you also rule this out now?

Pikachoad
14-01-03, 15:55
I would find it odd that Str would matter considering the weakest two characters in the game are the ones capable of high end constructing, and most Int implants that boost Int and/or Dex also decrease Str. And that the SS CPU boosts Dex and Int. Wouldnt make sense.

But I will gladly test when I get back in game.

Pikachoad
14-01-03, 15:57
Originally posted by jernau
1) Are you sure he had capped? - The Drone is lower QL than the cannon and spell.Drone is also TL 102, while cannon and spell are TL 84. Yes, all are capped.
2) What were your xx/yy levels when the tests were run? Someone suggested the yy part may have an effect. Can you also rule this out now? You mean the construction levels?? Both of us where 110/150, and the TL 150 tools where Cryton quality.

If you dont mean that , then please explain what you do mean.

Extirpator
14-01-03, 16:03
when you construct you get dex and str points.
TRUE
(STR, DEX, INT exp)

Where as researching doesn't get either.
TRUE
(INT exp only)

So maybe Construction needs str aswell?
FALSE

jernau
14-01-03, 16:07
Originally posted by Pikachoad
Drone is also TL 102, while cannon and spell are TL 84. Yes, all are capped.You mean the construction levels?? Both of us where 110/150, and the TL 150 tools where Cryton quality.

If you dont mean that , then please explain what you do mean.

1) So can that drone never exceed 84%?

2) Sorry, it wasn't very clear. I mean the two level numbers over your toon's head - the combat/skill levels. The combat one is variable so can be disregarded but the Skill level may have an effect.

Feanar
14-01-03, 16:12
Strych i think he means your overall skills rank (yy) and xx is your equip rank which is irrelevant :confused:

Anyway keep up the good work, if the devs aren't going to tell us the answers im glad someone is at least endeavouring to find them for us all and sharing them once they are found. :)

BTW, did u get ne slots on the weapons, if so what, im just interested coz slots AREN'T random :mad:

Lexxuk
14-01-03, 16:17
Pika, DM me ingame, and I'll help u run some more tests. I'm using a PE with capped Str, and almost capped Dex. My int is capped, so I should be able to get 110 construct, then we can compare based on the JOAT. Thats if ur upto it dude?

Then we would be able to see if str (60) and int (60) and dex (76 I think, cant remember) plays a difference in quality.

Pikachoad
14-01-03, 16:21
Originally posted by jernau
1) So can that drone never exceed 84%?

2) Sorry, it wasn't very clear. I mean the two level numbers over your toon's head - the combat/skill levels. The combat one is variable so can be disregarded but the Skill level may have an effect. 1. Correct. 83% actually. No PB20 Drone in all of Neocron will ever be higher than 83%. That is the hard limit of the drone itself. The key is that Alexandros, due to his Dex, hit that limit at 110 Constr, while I, with lower Dex, was nowhere near at at 110 Constr.

2. Skill level is merely an average of your skills. So of course the higher it is, the better your skills. Both he and I are 60+. So while it does not directly affect quality, you could say it indirectly affects quality, because the higher your Int and Dex, the higher the quality.... and the higher your Int and Dex, the higher your second number above your head.

But that number doesnt matter if you dont have enough points into construction... those numbers dont speak of how subskills are allocated.

Pikachoad
14-01-03, 16:24
Originally posted by Lexxuk
Pika, DM me ingame, and I'll help u run some more tests. I'm using a PE with capped Str, and almost capped Dex. My int is capped, so I should be able to get 110 construct, then we can compare based on the JOAT. Thats if ur upto it dude?

Then we would be able to see if str (60) and int (60) and dex (76 I think, cant remember) plays a difference in quality. Lexxuk- anyone can do this. Raise Constr to 110. Your Int is 60, and remove or add imps to get your dex to either 70 or 80... just to have it a round number. 80 would be ideal, because 80 is half way between my 40 and the 100 of Alexandros.

Again, I am quite sure Str has nothing to do with it. But it would be nice to see a lower Int than me combined with a higher Dex than me, and what level you would build those three items at.

I have easy access to those BPs if you dont. I will find you.

Commanda
14-01-03, 16:26
Originally posted by jernau


1) So can that drone never exceed 84%?

2) Sorry, it wasn't very clear. I mean the two level numbers over your toon's head - the combat/skill levels. The combat one is variable so can be disregarded but the Skill level may have an effect.

1) The higher the TL the lower the quality. With a max const-lvl of 150 (140 base + 10 Special Science) and all other influencing skills (DEX and INT, cap at 80) and sub-skills (REP, cap at 50) at cap you can't exceed 84%

2) The combatrank (first number) has an influence on the weapons quality, so you should draw your best weapon before you start constructing.

jernau
14-01-03, 16:27
Thanks for the clarification.

The reason I wondered about the effect of Skill Level is :

If I were a dev who wanted to discourage mule-chars on multi-char servers I would include it in the equation. It would prevent people power-levelling one skill up to max in a day on a spare char just so they can use him for RES or CST.

Just an idea.

Pikachoad
14-01-03, 16:30
Originally posted by Commanda


1) The higher the TL the lower the quality. With a max const-lvl of 150 (140 base + 10 Special Science) and all other influencing skills (DEX and INT, cap at 80) and sub-skills (REP, cap at 50) at cap you can't exceed 84%

2) The combatrank (first number) has an influence on the weapons quality, so you should draw your best weapon before you start constructing. 1. Where are you getting 140 base + 10 SS???? Alexandros capped at 110. I dont understand what you are saying here.

2. HUH??? Combat rank influences quality? HARDLY. You gotta provide a LOT of proof on this one. LOT of proof.

Halbarad
14-01-03, 16:33
BarneyL: I have 90 natural dex, +10 from Special Science CPU and Special Forces CPU. I've got a piddling amount of most dex skills thanks to those two chips; the ones I have large numbers of points in are VHC (62), T-C (79), and R-C (everything else, somewhere in the 120 range before implants). No repair other than the 5 I get from the SS CPU.

For those that are interested, the other chips I had in for the test were Construct 2 and 3.

jernau: I know the items were capped because I compared them with items of the same type that I've built for clanmates. I've made several PB-20's for our droner, and according to his checks the one I made at 110 was identical to an older 175; same for an older TPC I was shown by a tank clanmate.

Higher TL weapons cap their quality in the 80% range, depending on TL. Lower TL weapons cap at 94%, regardless of TL. I'd be interested to try and figure out what determines the cap level of high TL items, but that's a test for another day.

As for my rank, I'm a 44/62 most of the time.

Feanar: The TPC was the only thing it was possible to slot, and yes I did get one slot on it. :p

FBI
14-01-03, 16:40
Well.. believe it or not but I had 135 construction on my
pluto tank, 109 strength, 35 int, 70dex, 15 psi.

Mushroom for int and psi.

I couldn't make a unlabled nail gun with more than 3
slots out of the 50 that i made in a factory.

BUT Here is the strange part, when i made a TL 84
plasma cannon (regular) it was only 4% off from being
capped in quality. That sounds kinda odd.

EDIT: Anyway, perfect way to test this is with a PE.

Commanda
14-01-03, 16:47
Originally posted by Pikachoad
1. Where are you getting 140 base + 10 SS???? Alexandros capped at 110. I dont understand what you are saying here.

2. HUH??? Combat rank influences quality? HARDLY. You gotta provide a LOT of proof on this one. LOT of proof.

Well Pikachoad, I'm not KK and so I can give no "final" proof of this. But what I posted above is the result of a Constructor Meeting on Jupiter. The caps where found by using LoM-Pills, Implants and Factorys with low-, mid- and high-lvl constructors with a wide range of Skill Ranks. And one result was that the const-skill is capped at 140 and the only way to impove it is to use the Special Science CPU which finally rises your skill to 150. Any improvement above this only affected rare weapons.
If you care try it, rise your skill to 140 and post the result here.

Edit: The combat-rank has an influence but it's marginal

Pikachoad
14-01-03, 17:00
Originally posted by Commanda
Well Pikachoad, I'm not KK and so I can give no "final" proof of this. But what I posted above is the result of a Constructor Meeting on Jupiter. The caps where found by using LoM-Pills, Implants and Factorys with low-, mid- and high-lvl constructors with a wide range of Skill Ranks. And one result was that the const-skill is capped at 140 and the only way to impove it is to use the Special Science CPU which finally rises your skill to 150. Any improvement above this only affected rare weapons.
If you care try it, rise your skill to 140 and post the result here.
Uh. I dont know what to say.

You say you did tests and found that quality caps at 140.

I post specific results showing that for Alexandros, quality caps at 110 (maybe lower, we didnt go lower than 110).

I know my result to be true. I saw it. I was there. Alexandros capped with a 110.

So whatever you tested, it must not have been accurate. Or they were old tests, before a patch or something. For Alexandros alone invalidates your claim. He caps at 110. End of story.

If you think you can explain how that happens when the cap should be 140, please do so.

Lexxuk
14-01-03, 18:15
Ok, I did it, and now I'm almost broke from parts/LoM's *sniffle*

Items, Beggar Nail gun (tl 1) PB20 (tl 102) Reeza's Gaze (tl 88) and parashock beam (tl 84)

Test 1 - 110 Construct 150 tool

Beggar = 94% & 2 slots (w00t :D)
PB 20 = 76% - 6 Fails, 1 Destroyed Cube
Reeza's = 80%
Para = 80%

So, even though there is 4 t/l difference between the reeza and the para, the quality is the same, and a 4% difference between the reeza and the PB20 even though, only a 4 t/l difference.

Test 2 = 110 Construct & 50 Willpower 150 tool

Beggar = 94% & 5 slots (omg, 5 slots, i r teh ub3r :D :D :D)
PB 20 = 76% - 1 Destroyed Cube
Reeza's = 80%

I didnt do the parashock, cause I didnt feel I needed to as the results from the first 3 were the same.

Then I did some more tests to make sure the 50 Willpower did/didnt affect slots.

I made first, 5 more nail guns. results were (slots) 1/1/1/3/0/5 (not in that order)

Then a Reeza's gaze (again, 5) 0/0/0/0/1

So, it looks like willpower has no effect on how many slots you have, but I have a lovely 5 slot beggar nail gun, that I cant use coz I dont use Pistols *g*. Oh, and there was a lot of fails on the reezas during the 5 test, so willpower doesnt do anything there either. Now to try to get fom 17k back upto 300k, or enough to get the LoM's so I can use my rifles again, arghhhh.

/edit - my stats = Int 60, Str 60, Dex 74, Psi 35.

/edit 2 - from original, in some kinda order, hopefully

Alexandos built:
Parashock Beam (TL 84): 87%
Tangent Plasma Cannon (TL 84): 87%
PB20 Drone (TL 102): 83%

Strych9 built:
Parashock Beam (TL 84): 77%
Tangent Plasma Cannon (TL 84): 77%
PB20 Drone (TL 102): 73%

I Built:
Parashock Beam (TL 84): 80%
PB20 Drone (TL 102): 76%

Halbarad
14-01-03, 18:17
I've got a method for testing slots, but it's rather time consuming. Maybe we can work on that next, if they don't patch by the time I get home tonight. Yet another thing I'd want to do before LoM impairment hits.

Pikachoad
14-01-03, 18:22
Lexxuk, find me in game after 4pm Central, I will reimburse you for your testing.

Okay... you did better than me in quality. You have Int of 60, dex 76.

So I had 66% more Int than you, and you had 90% more Dex than me... and you constructed better than I did.

I would say not only is Dex part of the equation, it has more weight than Int.

Lexxuk
14-01-03, 18:50
Originally posted by Pikachoad
Lexxuk, find me in game after 4pm Central, I will reimburse you for your testing.

Okay... you did better than me in quality. You have Int of 60, dex 76.

So I had 66% more Int than you, and you had 90% more Dex than me... and you constructed better than I did.

I would say not only is Dex part of the equation, it has more weight than Int.

What we really need, is a GM to go onto a server, and make a PE/Monk/Spy, leave every single other stat except for construction empty, get 110 construct for all 3, and post the results.

At the moment, we have no clear clarification on which of the other subskills is effecting quality. It could be the Dex, like you say, as Alex has higher, you have lower, and I have the middle range.

Ok, lets work on some math though

Your dex 40, mine 76, Alex 100. That means, I am 36 dex higher than you, 26 lower than Alex.

Using the PB20 as the base, yours is 73, mine 76, Alex 83. So, a 3% between you and I, a 7% between Alex and I. Tell you what, I'll go stick all my implants in, my dex will be 90 odd, and I'll remake the PB20, n post the results :)

Pikachoad
14-01-03, 18:55
Originally posted by Lexxuk
Ok, lets work on some math though

Your dex 40, mine 76, Alex 100. That means, I am 36 dex higher than you, 26 lower than Alex.

Using the PB20 as the base, yours is 73, mine 76, Alex 83. So, a 3% between you and I, a 7% between Alex and I. Tell you what, I'll go stick all my implants in, my dex will be 90 odd, and I'll remake the PB20, n post the results :) The difference is Int, which everyone agrees on. Your Int is lower. But my increased Int (40 pts more Int) is NOT as important as your increased Dex (36 more Dex).

Thus, in the hidden equation- Dex has more weight than Int.

Halbarad
14-01-03, 19:08
Someone correct my math here if I'm wrong, but here's what I've worked out from Pika's and my own test results.

40 * dex factor = Pika's quality
100 * dex factor = my quality, which is Pika's +10

Working this out with simple algebra, it would seem that dex has a 16.6% weight in determining the construct quality of a given item-IF my cap is at exactly 110 construct. What I really need to do is lom down to 84 construct and build a TPC, since everything I built was capped. It MAY actually be larger than a 10% difference, since I couldn't go any higher than I did.

Lexxuk
14-01-03, 19:15
Test 76745.1 *g*

I stuck in all my implants, so my new stats are 63 Int/97 Dex. The rest were unchanged.

Building the PB20, my quality was...82%
Building the Reeza's gaze, my quality was 85%.

Difference is, 76 Dex PB = 76. 97 Dex PB = 82, a difference of 6%. The Reeza went from 80 to 85%, a difference of 5%. So the higher TL item saw a higher increase in quality compared to the lower based (88) Reeza. But yep, there was a definate increase in quality. I really should have tested again with more int, but, well, you both have 100 int, so it does look like the more dex, the higher the quality.

/edit - forget what I just wrote, I'd forgot I'd risen my Const above the 110 to test the willpower/slots ratio.. off to LoM again *g*

Red Knight
14-01-03, 19:18
Thanks everyone who is running tests on this type of thing it is good to know what works and does not :)


Boy, it sure would be nice to have an official *ACCURATE* list from KK concerning skills and subskills. Are they even working on one?:mad:

borderp
14-01-03, 19:45
YES! A big thank you to all of you testing! KK should reimburse you for figuring you thier game for them...;)

Pikachoad
14-01-03, 19:48
Hal- I am saying three things go into Construction... Constr TL, Int, and Dex.

We know those three.

We dont know the actual numbers, but in terms of weight, it must be

Constr TL > Dex > Int

Cause we know Constr TL is the biggest factor. Out of Dex and Int, we know Dex is more important than Int due to what Lexxuk has shown.

EDIT: and based on what we have seen... depending on the weight of Constr, Dex, and Int... it would be more helpful to drug up Dex than Int when building (if you had to pick only one. Otherwise, drug up both).

And everyone remember... we are talking about general construction quality here... not slots.

Lexxuk
14-01-03, 19:50
Ok, after much swearing @ KK for lovely bugs, several relogs, and a quick panic @ my TL 150 tool turning into Gel, I got my construct back to tl 110, my dex @ 97.

Results, The PB 20 was 80%, the Reeza's Gaze was 83%. To make sure it isnt Int, I stuck in a Cyber Eye 4, and remade the PB 20, results were, 80%, even at 67 Int. So yes, dex plays the biggest part in the game. One way to be 100% sure, when the next next patch comes out, get a GM to slap up to 100 Dex, and LoM every level. The points will still be there, BUT, dex will be at like, 1.

Pikachoad
14-01-03, 19:53
Originally posted by Lexxuk
So yes, dex plays the biggest part in the game. One way to be 100% sure, when the next next patch comes out, get a GM to slap up to 100 Dex, and LoM every level. The points will still be there, BUT, dex will be at like, 1. To clarify, Dex is more important than Int, but Construction level is still the most important. :)

Lexxuk
14-01-03, 20:07
Originally posted by Pikachoad
To clarify, Dex is more important than Int, but Construction level is still the most important. :)

Ya, Dex is more important in build quality, but you need the high int for the construct subskill hehehe. But, I'm thinking, I have 60 Int, so, in theory, I can, as a PE, be just as good a constructor as a Spy/PSI Monk, due to the fact, I'll reach my cap at 125, jup? That cant be right though, because that means a JOAT, which isnt supposed to be able to specialise, and be as good as/better than the other classes in any given area, I can be as good as/better than a monk/spy. Its spooky :D

Pikachoad
14-01-03, 20:22
Originally posted by Lexxuk
Ya, Dex is more important in build quality, but you need the high int for the construct subskill hehehe. But, I'm thinking, I have 60 Int, so, in theory, I can, as a PE, be just as good a constructor as a Spy/PSI Monk, due to the fact, I'll reach my cap at 125, jup? That cant be right though, because that means a JOAT, which isnt supposed to be able to specialise, and be as good as/better than the other classes in any given area, I can be as good as/better than a monk/spy. Its spooky :D It means that a Monk, Spy, and PE (someone needs to LOM a tank!!!) can all cap weapon quality.

But that doesnt mean you will be as good of a constructor, because there is also

1. Build success. Still believed to be double the item tech level.
2. Slots. No one really knows for sure.

So as a PE, you can have max 124 Constr. Add in a Hacking 2, Con 2, SF CPU, and you can drug into a Con 3. That will leave you at 74 Int, Dex 80, and 139 Constr. Toss in a boost from a PPU monk, and you are at 159, top.

If/when I max my Int, I will be at 212 Constr, 124 Int, and 40 Dex. Unless slot chances are pure Dex based, I will be better than you. And if slot chances ARE pure Dex, a Spy will be better than you. :)

Syncro
14-01-03, 23:01
This is some DAMN FINE research here. I thank you all for your time and effort.

EDIT:

That didn't sound right... I really need to stress THANK YOU for your effort and time to help constructors everywhere. This is probably the best research that has ever gone into determining how construct works, and all of the little naughty secrets that go along with it. Someday maybe it will be determined what affects slot chances, but for right now, I'm extremely happy, and quite impressed with what has been accomplished.

Now, what we need to do is to lobby for KK to allow for auto-population of the processor window when it comes to constructing... You know, only put your construct tool in there, along with the blueprint, and when you push start, it automatically pulls the parts from your inv (provided you have them) and begins construction, same as it already does with grease. Anything to reduce the amount of repetition involved with construction, since I'm sure that all of us build in large batches (no?). I'm starting to develop wrist problems from constructing! o_O

Now to go put my DEX points into P-C, so I can go hike my skill up a couple dozen levels.

Maybe I should use that 5-slot Street Model Uziel I made. :D

Granite
14-01-03, 23:03
Well I haven't forgotten guys. ;) I hope to talk directly to one of the other dev's soon about this.

winterblink
14-01-03, 23:06
You know, it's going to be a real pity when more serious LOM effects get put into the game. There's going to be a lot less great experimentation like this done in-game I bet.

Syncro
14-01-03, 23:10
Originally posted by winterblink
You know, it's going to be a real pity when more serious LOM effects get put into the game. There's going to be a lot less great experimentation like this done in-game I bet.

Yes. I know I won't be throwing around creds to research the effects of subskills after they change everything.

However, I do agree that the change, exactly as is planned, is what should be done...

Halbarad
14-01-03, 23:11
Not to go too off-topic, winterblink, but I'd agree. I'm firing up a char on the test server tonight, I think; I just hope they leave LoMs alone there in the long term (no synaptic, cheap as hell). It's supposed to be there for testing, after all, and LoMs are absolutely necessary if you really want to test thoroughly.

Pikachoad
14-01-03, 23:15
This is all I think we can realistically test. There clearly is no randomness involved, so we can pinpoint relationships between skills.

Quality depends on Construct skill first, then Dex, then Int. We dont know the relation beyond that. Nor do I think we should. I dont want to know the exact math.

Slots- this is what I want to know. Again- dont need specifics... just want to know if it is Int and Construct and Dex, or just Int and Construct, or just Construct, whatever.

I think that SIMPLE bit of info would appease most players.

We have NO way to test slots AT ALL realistically. ANY deviation can be attributed to the random factor.

Granite, please just ask what skills/subskills are considered for SLOTS only. Dont need ratios or numbers... just skills and subskills.

WedgeIkari
14-01-03, 23:25
I totally agree with Pika, devs please just give us a list of candidate slot influencing skills and subskills.... and leave the rest up to us. ;)

Kayahk
14-01-03, 23:27
Great work guys :)

winterblink
14-01-03, 23:31
Originally posted by Halbarad
Not to go too off-topic, winterblink, but I'd agree. I'm firing up a char on the test server tonight, I think; I just hope they leave LoMs alone there in the long term (no synaptic, cheap as hell). It's supposed to be there for testing, after all, and LoMs are absolutely necessary if you really want to test thoroughly.

Yeh, sorry for the offtopicness of this. :) But to be honest, I agree with you completely -- it's definitely a required change. It just makes it that much harder to get good empirical evidence of how the various skills affect the different gameplay aspects. But hey, THAT shouldn't be easy either. :)

Vince Kyzar
14-01-03, 23:40
you guys should do a constructor meeting to exchange knowledge as it was done on jupiter.

we have a guy called "Papst" who prolly knows most about constructing of all normal players since he did a shitload of testing, and i do mean shitload :D

if any of you is able to speak german you can get a log from a thread in the german forum, could be helpful to improve your results :)

Nullifidian
14-01-03, 23:52
Has anyone checked to see if agility affects it at all? It might, seeing as how no one has figured out exactly what agility is for. Stranger things have happened. Heck, for a long time, remote control affected running speed and willpower affected aiming speed.

Lexxuk
15-01-03, 01:05
Has anyone tested the exp gain from construction, in int/str towards a PSI and a Spy? For instance, if a Spy and a PSI, both new, both are given the same thing to construct (tl 9 item say), what is the exp given to either char, is it equal, or, is it easier for a Spy to level up using construction, or a PSI?

Best place to test would be a multi server where u can make a char just for the test :p

Syncro
15-01-03, 01:08
neocron.ems.ru

Check under "Some useful info for character creation."

Pikachoad
15-01-03, 03:13
Originally posted by Vince Kyzar
you guys should do a constructor meeting to exchange knowledge as it was done on jupiter.I dunno. In game chat isnt too well suited for listing results. And is that the same meeting on Jupiter that Commanda is talking about... the one that 'determined' that quality caps at 140??? o_O

This is fine. We need to eliminate variable, so only 1 thing is different at one time.

I think we know all we need to know about quality. It is based on Construction, Dex, and Int, in that order. It caps... caps at a lower construction level the higher your Dex and Int is.

But once you hit the cap, all things build the same.

End of the quality story.

What we need now is slot info... that is the last puzzle.

Pikachoad
15-01-03, 03:15
Originally posted by Lexxuk
Has anyone tested the exp gain from construction, in int/str towards a PSI and a Spy? For instance, if a Spy and a PSI, both new, both are given the same thing to construct (tl 9 item say), what is the exp given to either char, is it equal, or, is it easier for a Spy to level up using construction, or a PSI?

Best place to test would be a multi server where u can make a char just for the test :p Definitely easier for a Spy. We know the gain rate for Spy int is 3 times faster than for Monk Int. I dont have time to test, but would be suprised if a monk got equal or more exp. I am pretty sure the Spy would.

Vince Kyzar
15-01-03, 08:07
Originally posted by Pikachoad
I dunno. In game chat isnt too well suited for listing results. And is that the same meeting on Jupiter that Commanda is talking about... the one that 'determined' that quality caps at 140??? o_O


It actually IS at 140, believe me ;)
And ingame chat is okay since neocron saves a log of it, may not be perfect but for everyone who was at the meeting it was really useful.

papst also had lots of information on slots because as i said when the loms were avaiable he made many many series of weapon and found some stuff out ;)

repair raises slotchance etc.

Syncro
15-01-03, 08:19
Originally posted by Vince Kyzar


It actually IS at 140, believe me ;)
And ingame chat is okay since neocron saves a log of it, may not be perfect but for everyone who was at the meeting it was really useful.

papst also had lots of information on slots because as i said when the loms were avaiable he made many many series of weapon and found some stuff out ;)

repair raises slotchance etc.

I'm sure I'm not the only one thinking this, but here we go...

In order for this to be believed, we need proof, along the same lines as was provided by pika and the rest. Vague statements don't count as proof, and references to an event don't count either. We need the actual data from which you pull these opinions, which also has to include contextual information, such as all stats involved, as well as all subskills dealt with...

It's not that I don't want to believe you, but concrete evidence has been provided showing your claims to be in error.

Syncro
15-01-03, 08:29
Okay, this just dawned on me...

For those of us who've created 4-5 slot weapons...

What was your repair skill at that time?

Now, I had 98 in repair at the time I made my first 5-slot weapon. It was a TL20 Uzi.

I'm going to run a few batches of weapons tonight, to see how many slots I get on both low, and high TL weapons. I don't expect anything to be different, but I'll let you know. Only reason I'm bothering with this, is because I LoMed my repair skill away, and stuck it all into P-C (TL20 Uzi against a Cyc gets mad XP for DEX and INT).

I will not use my findings to be concrete proof, since slots tend to vary quite a bit... One person *cannot* determine the true relationship between skills and slots, unless that one person is a dev, or happens to talk to a dev. ;) However, if I can't make even one 3-slot weapon withing 20 builds, I'll let you all know.

My slot averages with 98 repair:

1 = 1:2.5
2 = 1:2
3 = 1:6
4 = 1:20
5 = 1:1.2486159613459068405 x 10^300 ;)

On to see what I can find...

Feel free to compare your numbers to mine.

Syncro
15-01-03, 10:37
Okay, you've got my attention.

With 0 repair (down from 98), I didn't see any change in the rate of slotted weapons.

However, I did see a significant drop in the *number* of slots each weapon had.

One in three weapons had one slot, one in three had two, and the rest had none.

This is on a weapon that I normally see at *least* one 3-slotted weapon out of every five built... But there were none.

This is *not* incontrovertible proof that repair has *any effect at all* on slots in construction, but it has made me wary.

I can't afford any more time or creds on this research, but it has spooked me enough that I'm putting all of my points back into repair, except for those 50 I'm keeping in T-C... Gotta be able to use that Unlabelled Gatlin Cannon, ya know. ;)

Opiate
15-01-03, 10:58
Great work guys, this is really valuable information ;)

Two remarks though:
-Lexxuk, when are you gonna pay me back the 100k for LoM-ing? :D
-What on Neocron am I gonna do with all those slotted beggar nailguns that fill up our clan apt cabs now?

JK, will be more than happy to contribute to further testing :angel:

Pikachoad
15-01-03, 12:56
Vince Kyzar, please stop with the 'cap is 140' stuff. In THIS thread, it has been shown that caps depend on dex and int, so it is different for everyone. Alexandros caps at 110... SO STOP ALREADY unless you or Commanda plan to show how me and Alexandros are lying, and how you know the truth. Oh yeah... I also like how Commanda says it is 140, or 150 with SS CPU- when in reality the SS CPU wouldnt HURT your slotting level cause it raises Int and Dex.

Second- repair. No reason to believe this is true, and no evidence. I am not impressed with someone saying "oh yeah, and repair affects slots." The only way to do any sort of valid slot testing is to literally build hundreds of guns. And even then, results are suspect. Due to the randomness factor we can actually tell very little about slots.

I have had 105 repair ever since I maxed my Dex. Some days I slot well, other days I dont. Big deal.

Proof people. If the guys supporting the mysterious meeting on Jupiter want to be taken seriously, better start coughing up info.

Lexxuk
15-01-03, 14:07
Ohh, in repair, I have 60 odd I think, and with the Reeza's gaze, only 1 was slotted, so I think slots might just really be a random figure, like pulling a number out of a hat. There could be 50 numbers, 30 with 0, 10 with 1, 5 with 2, 3 with 3, and 1 each of 4/5. You randomly pull a number out of the hat, and thats your slots which get reset every time you pull a number.

I think the test here has shown, if you have higher dex, your quality at lower construction rates is higher. Therefore, a Spy will reach the quality cap a lot quicker than a PSI, and, a Spy will gain more exp from construction.

Personally, I dont think this is at all fair, each action should give the same exp, no matter what the class (3000 con exp for a blast with a RGC @ a tank, compared to 300 to a PE for instance). Now that we know though, that it is Dex that plays the part, what do the Dev's need to do, make it pure Int?

Harch
15-01-03, 14:26
Nice work. I was wondering whether it had an effect too.

Pikachoad
15-01-03, 14:58
Originally posted by Lexxuk
Personally, I dont think this is at all fair, each action should give the same exp, no matter what the class (3000 con exp for a blast with a RGC @ a tank, compared to 300 to a PE for instance). Now that we know though, that it is Dex that plays the part, what do the Dev's need to do, make it pure Int? Well, to me, the real problem is that the Spy int has a levelling rate 3 times faster than monk Int. And that is because of the effects that Psi Use has most likely. I am gonna make a post in brainport to cap spell quality to match gun quality. That would fix the monk rank problem and allow them to make monk Int level at a proper speed.:(

Schattensohn
15-01-03, 16:06
What Subskill Dex need i for a good/better construction?

:angel:

Pikachoad
15-01-03, 16:14
Originally posted by Schattensohn
What Subskill Dex need i for a good/better construction?

:angel: No subskills. Just the higher your Dex, the lower your quality cap will be.

But if you plan on constructing, it doesnt matter much once you hit the high construction levels... it only comes into play when you are in the middle ranks.

Thanatos
15-01-03, 18:05
For construction the influences are 60% Construction subskill, 25% DEX and 15% INT. Nothing else matters.

The only thing influencing the number of slots on an item is its quality. The higher the quality, the higher the chance to get slots. What is considered is the final quality of the item, not the pre-cap quality.

Want me to spoil the fun on repair? ;)

Pikachoad
15-01-03, 18:08
Thanatos = teh winar

Thanks a bunch. Made my day/year.

Once you can cap, you dont need any more points in Construct unless you wanna guarantee success.

Amen. Can I get a witness?

Opiate
15-01-03, 18:10
Originally posted by Pikachoad
Amen. Can I get a witness?
Took a screenie, if he denies it later, contact me and I'll mail it :p

Halbarad
15-01-03, 18:12
Of course you KNOW this means they'll just change the formula in the next patch. ^_~

Thanatos
15-01-03, 18:12
I forgot to mention that this is subject to change, like everything :angel:

Lexxuk
15-01-03, 18:16
Originally posted by Thanatos
I forgot to mention that this is subject to change, like everything :angel:

You aint met my socks recently then have you :lol: :lol: :lol:

Pikachoad
15-01-03, 18:16
It is all subject to change. :)

Started a new thread for this. Happy day (until it changes o_O )

Thanks again Thanatos.

Papst
15-01-03, 19:04
dear gm,

Why are u only reading and answering in the engl forumand not in the german?? we germans also are woried about construcktion and a counstrucktor meeting was also some days ago.

ps.:
some of us german construcktors are now a little bit pissed off

thx for reading ;)

Syncro
15-01-03, 21:47
Originally posted by Thanatos
For construction the influences are 60% Construction subskill, 25% DEX and 15% INT. Nothing else matters.

The only thing influencing the number of slots on an item is its quality. The higher the quality, the higher the chance to get slots. What is considered is the final quality of the item, not the pre-cap quality.

Want me to spoil the fun on repair? ;)

Thank you thank you thank you thank you!!!!!!!!!!!!

WHEEEE!!!!!

I WUB J0000!!!

fuzzy
04-05-03, 04:39
Originally posted by Pikachoad
1. Correct. 83% actually. No PB20 Drone in all of Neocron will ever be higher than 83%. That is the hard limit of the drone itself. The key is that Alexandros, due to his Dex, hit that limit at 110 Constr, while I, with lower Dex, was nowhere near at at 110 Constr.


Actually there IS an Artifact 120/120 PB-20 on Jupiter, but that was a special price for the Droner's Tourney and may not be used :-).

Oh, and it was obviously GM spawned.

bibliotequa
04-05-03, 05:30
Thanatos, thanks for the info, and you Pika, Lex, and all the others, though Thanatos, like someone said, there have been errors with skills before, are you sure say.... str wont affect it? Why not get a gm to alter points to 110 cst, 100 int 100 dex 100 str and then try, who knows, maybe you'll stumble on something bigger than nc its self :eek: or maybe itll be a complete waste of the gm's time:angel:

StryfeX
04-05-03, 07:36
Erm...don't resurrect a thread that is 4 months old, sheesh.

--Stryfe

hose187
04-05-03, 10:37
Actually, Stryfe, I was thinking the same thing. Then I remembered that most people still have no concept of how construction quality works. I'm sure you still here people asking all the time for a TL 200 constructor (150 with factory).

Tia
04-05-03, 21:58
How old is this thread? Sheesh

FeeNiX
04-05-03, 22:46
considering Alexandros, a friend of mine in game has not played for about 4 months now....pretty damn old

\\Fényx//
04-05-03, 22:54
Originally posted by Thanatos
Want me to spoil the fun on repair? ;)


i KNOW that this is an old thread, BUT DO IT ! :p

as far as im concerned its probably something like 75% repair skill and 25% DEX

Extirpator
04-05-03, 23:05
Originally posted by \\Fényx//
as far as im concerned its probably something like 75% repair skill and 25% DEX
70% repair, 20% DEX, 10% INT

\\Fényx//
04-05-03, 23:10
ta, always thought it was something like that cause my tank had like 85(170) repair with 70 DEX and 20 INT, and there was a spy with like 75(150) repair and probably around 80/80 on INT/DEX and he always got 1% less loss than me, which annoyed me and made me wonder :p but thats no biggy

Sorin
04-05-03, 23:12
Originally posted by Thanatos
Want me to spoil the fun on repair? ;)

Yes, please do so. I think it might have been ninja nerfed in a recent patch, or maybe just a fluke.

Example.

My tank has a repair skill of 90. With a supporter booster 3 it goes up to 110. This means that I can repairs items up to a theoretical TL 220.

About 3 weeks to a month ago I repaired my Devil's Grace, which is TL 103, from x/120% to 116/116%. Strength was something like 103 or 104 or something. Dexterity was capped, but with a negative 7 modifier from implants, dropping it to 63.

Now, a few days ago I repaired a clanmates Pain Easer, which is TL 93. Again, Supporter Booster 3 put me up to skill 110, TL 220. Strength was 108 and Dexterity was the same as before. This time, the item was repaired from 1/120% to 97/117%.

I also repaired several pieces of high level armor to similar quality as the Devil's Grace at the time I repaired that sword. I also repaired several pieces of high level armor at the same time as the Pain Easer which came out to similar quality as the Pain Easer.

This leads me to wonder if repair was changed in a recent patch. I see no other viable explanation for this. I guess there is no reason to have told players, as it's not like it's something people generally know anyways, but I'm still wondering.

So yes, Thanatos, please! I'm curious! Do tell. :)

jernau
05-05-03, 01:13
I believe the condition of the item when the repair is done has an effect. ie. less damage is done if you repair at 30/120 than at 0/120.

I've not tested it myself but have heard it from several people now so I always get repairs done at 30/x.

If this is true then presumably there is a sweet spot that you should get your repairs done at (I am guessing 30 but could be wrong).

Sorin
05-05-03, 01:30
Oh, and if at all possible, I would like to hear an official word of whether or not using drugs and psi boost affects the chances of slots. Many people believe this. Personally, I don't.

Yes, I know Thanatos clearly stated in an earlier post that the only thing affecting slot chances is item quality. This automatically excludes drugs and psi boosts, but I just want to be sure. I just built 5 Long Laserblade II for a clanmate with my spy. I was at our factory, which put me at 166 construct skill. With drugs, my Dex was 77 and my Int was 67. No psi boost. They came out to 92%, three had no slots, one had one slot, and one had 3 slots (with my name on it and everything :)).

Also, without drugs, I constructed 5 Blessed Shelter modules the other day and one had no slots, one had one slot, one had two slots, one had three slots, and one had four slots.

Are slots also random? I can't remember off-hand, but I do think the TL of the Blessed Shelter is higher than the TL of the Long Laserblade II. The quality of the Blessed Shelters was 1% lower than the Long Laserblade II I think, but they got slotted all to hell.

Glyc
05-05-03, 17:38
ok - we take thantos word as law for the moment. but what about rares? sometimes i construct doombeamers with avg of 118 stats and sometimes i construct a PE with avg of 105 stats. none of my skills have changed for a LONG time. im above the cst cap for non-rares, and sometimes fail. but i was just wondering what affects quality of rares being built. drugs?

thoughts?

eric-the-ded
05-05-03, 18:03
alex and pika need to come back and solve the riddle of slots for us.
the only non-rare items i've seen get more than 2 slots are mellee weapons.

i miss alex.. that snooty lil bitch of a badass constructor.
i made that schnazzy sig of his btw.

Nuski
05-05-03, 19:01
My constructor char on Saturn recently made some rares, slots are completely random in my eyes BUT i have found the use of a factory does not aid in your construction of a rare, personaly i think it hinders it. I do use drugs to raise various areas and made the following stood in my appt.

Cursed Soul 4 slot & 3 slot
DoomBeamer 3 slot
Malediction 4 slot
Redeemer 5 slot
Liberator 5 slot
Pain Easer 2 slot

plus a couple of 1 and no slotters also.
Glyc the stats are completely random but i do feel drugs aid slots as you can see from the stuff i made :/

Anyway theres my thoughts on construction for you.

meta-x
17-12-03, 18:57
Edited :/ mistell.

Strych9
17-12-03, 19:13
If this info DOES need to be rehashed for some reason, just say so.

Nidhogg
17-12-03, 19:47
Closed for being older than me.

N