View Full Version : GM and player parley

08-09-17, 00:30
I would really like a parley with as many GMs as possible next week, with as many NC players (retired or current). I want everyone to have a voice. I particularly want everyone that is upset about one thing or another to come and at least listen. And I want GMs to listen to us, we have some things to say, that are better said in person, face to face as it were. We love Neocron and we just want to talk a few things over with the GMs that normally is not discussed.

Suggested Times:
Start time between 5 pm eastern to 10 pm Eastern Monday through Thursday OR anytime Friday/Saturday

Duration: 30 to 60 mins

William Antrim
08-09-17, 11:03
5pm eastern is 10pm in the UK and 11pm in Europe. Im gonna stick my neck out here and say I think that you wont find too many people online at that time of night. I would also question what you think you will achieve by saying things "in person" because its not actually in person, its a game.

I would suggest making a constructive thread that people can dip into (in their own time) instead of asking everyone to be at a certain place during the small hours of the morning just to air some things out.

I can see what you are trying to do, I just think it is the wrong way to go about it.

08-09-17, 15:12
By in person, I meant voice communication. Sometimes text alienates people, particularly on contentious issues. All day Friday or all day Saturday should alleviate the time issue... I hope.

Even if I could just privately chat with GMs I would be happy... But it would be better if other people were there too.

08-09-17, 17:30
Even if I could just privately chat with GMs I would be happy... But it would be better if other people were there too.
What about? If you need to report bugs, exploits or behaviour violating the terms of service, you can do this through the usual email channels.

08-09-17, 20:41
About none of the above actually. I have not put the specifics intentionally, one topic is probably best left off of a forum post... But if my only recourse is to post it here, I can... It will certainly get bad feedback from some GMs... The general discussion though will be about the vision for retaining players long term. It won't be about any specific exploit, any specific game play, or any specific player problems. So it don't fit any of the aforementioned activities you posted.

08-09-17, 20:43
I am hoping to have a discussion on voice with at least one GM. If this is not possible then I will do a public forum post instead.

09-09-17, 10:08
I am hoping to have a discussion on voice with at least one GM. If this is not possible then I will do a public forum post instead.

You'd be better off with a voice conversation, otherwise the post will get jumped on by person X, Y and Z with their own agenda and you will lose any points you were trying to raise.

09-09-17, 20:00
Ok I'm leaving one part of this out... Intentionally... I won't say more for now.

Topic: player retention

Hi Everyone (GMs and players),

I think it would be behoove us all to consider the long term consequences of actions by ALL parties so that we are doing our best to bring in new players, bring back retired players, and keep the current players.

This is NOT a GM bashing post, NOR a player bashing post. This is not an angry post either. If I stray from facts, point it out and I can remove/reword this post.

We, the current active player base, can do more for player retention. So can GMs ... I'm not saying GMs aren't busy already... There is always so much to do in the NC world on the GM side. Nonetheless, here are some points:

1. Tutorials for new players
a. The new player tutorial should be removed, probably immediately, unless some change is made. If you could find, make, keep some items in the tutorial, that would be a reason why current players would want to actually do the tutorial.
b. MC5: new players don't know what to do, and some over the past 9 months have quit within minutes of installing. Ok, so we could blame the new players, but that feels like a copout to me. Players are always ready to help... Myself included! I could write a list of all the players that are helpful to brand new players, but honestly it would be at nearly 100%. So why did those new players quit, with so many helpful people around? The largest reason: they didn't know help was available. I suppose for some rare cases people want to do everything on their own, but couldn't figure it out. Two things might help, suggested by multiple people over the past months...
i. I as a now 'veteran' player will be happy to make some YouTube videos for every class. This could backfire though and highlight issues already pointed out to GMs numerous times but for whatever reason we're not addressed. I can't help that! If a GM were to fix something I would be happy to replace the video with the updates. The videos would have to encompass ALL classes and ALL professions. And ideally this video link would show up as a popup at character creation.
ii. Unfortunately some issues will be glaringly obvious in the videos above. All I can do or any other player can do is show how things actually work.

c. Leveling after MC5: more videos! I'm going to avoid El Farid, at least I want to do that...

Recently I helped a brand new player (within the last month). When I met him he was */20... I handed him some power leveling tips and suddenly he was */50. He told me it almost made him want to quit. So I have realized any tutorial ought to involve 'fun' ways to level. Normally it would involve on foot hunting of good loot mobs, but that is unrealistic until mob damage is brought back to a reasonable scale. When I first played in December and January (I was new then) I hunted on foot for a long time, until I discovered revelers. Then I hunted in revelers for at least a month. And then I discovered next FSM scorpion trikes! Pricey but awesome! Then after a month I discovered rhinos... Somewhere in that timeline some PvP changes were implemented which nearly ruined fire mob foot hunting. Rhino hunting is really the only safe single player way to hunt firemobs... Effectively putting firemob hunting out of the realm of possibility for brand new players that prefer to level up alone, on their own schedule.
Summary: My 'after mc5' leveling videos will show that the reality of NC as it is currently... Again, I can update the videos if changes are made.

2. Players that volunteer to help GMs
Perhaps GMs don't know this, perhaps they do... I have no clue honestly. Sometimes players help on the test server for hours and hours... Days or weeks even... And then they finish. And then they get zero feedback/thanks, public or private, and I have heard of worse... Ridicule that was perhaps meant to be funny but wasn't funny because it was their sole form of feedback. In my personal case, which may you could say be ongoing, I have helped a for about 20 hours to date... But I'm not sure if my testing is (a) of use (b) will even be considered for use (c) is already thrown out

In my case I was testing drones, but even after I finished I realize I could do even more... It is hard to be self motivated to continue, although I might at some point anyway, with zero feedback.

Players don't need a full essay response. And don't give a standard auto-reply... It only takes one or two sentences to respond to a ton of hours of work. That would be sufficient. If another GM wants to handle the replies, that is NST business. But some reply would go a long way to undoing the alienation and disconnect between players and GMs.

This is MY personal take, from my perspective.

3. NST rules of conduct

What does this have to do with player retention? Quite a lot, actually. I am disappointed that zone pushing is still a crime, for example. And no, I don't zone pushing, not will I ever.

The rules of conduct ought to be rewritten... If you disagree, you also disagree with most players currently active. Some rules could stay, some slightly rewritten, some removed.

Let me point to one rule: you should not harass, bully, hurt the feelings of ... another player. Forgive the paraphrasing.

Let me please explain why this rule should not be here, as it stands.

Every time a player gets GR killed... Harassed, hurt feelings
Every time a player loses because their gear, setup is not as good, player skill not as good (hurt feelings, harassed - if repeatedly killed -)

Now maybe the original writer did not intend for that to be interpreted that way... But it certainly seems silly the way I put it. Ok, and let's say I stalk a player due to a personal reason, that is definitely harassment... But it's part of the game (feel free to correct me if I am wrong?).

That was just an example, I am leaving off more contentious issues for now.

4. LE violence
Right now LE runners can be a part of the violence... Contrary to everything you read on the forums. New players are forced into this every time they hop in a vehicle. Vehicle vs vehicle violence is not dependent on LE removal. If this is intentional, LE players should be informed at character creation or shortly afterward.

5. There is some damage, a rift if you will, or gap, between GMs and players. Weekly or monthly or quarterly GM and player sessions (voice or no voice) would potentially help alleviate this gap.

These are MY personal experiences and MY views, not any clan I'm apart of...

I think most of the players can at least mostly agree with the above. But NC should not be a democratically run server... Mob rule after all can be pure democracy, but terrible. But nonetheless please consider the above, thank you for your time.

09-09-17, 20:36
A good solid post, it raises a lot of valid points.

Some of my thoughts;

Early game has always been a massive issue - The fact players are quitting before they leave MC5 tells you something - it needs addressing. Furthermore, the lack of direction for new players after the completion (if you are lucky) of still buggy Jones missions does not help matters. Not to mention new characters being given stats on the character creation screen which are completely useless.
The new player experience needs an over-haul, in 2002 it may have been reasonable to expect players to hunt rats for hours, in 2017 that's certainly not the case.

PTS - Myself and clan mates have been on PTS from time to time, but NST do not seem to want to organise proper PTS events to encourage players to help - before 2.3 there was a big push for damage testing and lots of fights split between teams the GM's had chosen, since then this type of event has become few and far between. I've personally not been ridiculed but I cannot speak for other runners experiences.

I certainly agree that GM's should consider hosting GM and player sessions, it would give them the opportunity for them to explain their thoughts and goals - plus you could have Q&A between players and GM's.

11-09-17, 21:19
Greensoldier If I were NST my response would be: we have several avenues available to make these kinds of suggestions via helpdesk, etc and a voice chat is not needed given we provide clear instructions on how to report these kinds of issues and suggestions.

Problem is that (as example by this thread) we don't get replies.....we are told to communicate via writing through channels A B and C, but their is no feedback provided. We have no idea if the hours we spend testing will turn into anything...we have no idea if we are wasting time making suggestions about MC5....we have no idea if our help tickets are getting read, or our bug reports are being reviewed, and this is evidence by the fact that no NST have responded to this thread.

we all understand NST have real lives but we repeatedly ask for 2 way communication and don't get any...a monthly scheduled voice session, where even one member of NST pops into voice for 30 mins or an hour would go a long way towards answering all of our questions, providing feedback, status updats, making grievances, and repairing the relationship between players and NST. Why is this not an option and why haven't any NST responded? Both sides are guilty here I am not bashing NST, but there has to be communication otherwise NST is going to make the players miserable and the players are going to make NST miserable! No one wants to be miserable!

Just my 2 cents

11-09-17, 21:22
A good solid post, it raises a lot of valid points.

I certainly agree that GM's should consider hosting GM and player sessions, it would give them the opportunity for them to explain their thoughts and goals - plus you could have Q&A between players and GM's.

This would do SO MUCH good for the NST/player relationship and is a fantastic idea. Everyone will stop hating eachother....NST can be left to work in peace....its a win/win...sure its a sacrifice of time, but it will save so much time and hassle down the road...schedule it monthly at a specific time, signed, sealed, delivered