PP1- Club Veronique

[bobhoskins]

A couple of months ago PP1 Club Veronique was turned into a non safe zone following requests... Since the implementation the pvp has stopped in that area... PVP has now switched to PP3 where there is a safe zone the players can use lol.... So it's clear runners want that safe zone still.... it caters for the casual pvper.

I addressed this with the Runners that originally wanted the club to be a hostile zone.... They have stated their isn't enough benefit to hack the club etc so kinda feel like it's a waste having it this way.

[JoshCooper]

I agree on this.

Lots of runners want a safe zone, this is evident from most "city" pvp moving to P3 and more recently PP3 with the bum asylum. If people have to fight next to a safe zone I'd rather that be PP1 where no pesky copbots can get in the way.

On a related note: nerf copbots :D

[Odimara Orca]

IMO I don't understand why NPC's were placed there.

Is it PvP or PvE?

[Jodo]

IMO I don't understand why NPC's were placed there.

Is it PvP or PvE?


Primarily it's meant to be RPG. Certain things are necessary to the story and atmosphere. Continuing to remove key elements in favour of appeasing a specific gaming preference and it is farther and farther from the Neocron everyone fell in love with.

[bmurph101]

I mean, any time there is a safe zone where you cannot physically attack another player, people will exploit it. And to be honest, pp1 pvp was pretty cancerous. People would just park their PPUs in corners, buff themselves, and walk back out.

I've advocated for the removal of all safe zones pretty much since I've come to NC. I'm not saying it would 100% work in NC, but it'd be a really neat experiment for a day or two. Like, nobody in this game has stuff that cannot be replaced. Hardly anyone hacks belts on top of that. If you're that afraid to die, idk, maybe go find a PvE WoW server.

The general consensus that you longtime NC vets have is that without Safezones, NC would go up in flames and there would be nonstop pking around every corner. Maybe that is indeed what would happen. Maybe it'd be like that for a day or two. Or maybe it wouldn't be like that at all.

Only one way to find out. :D

[Mal]

I'm kinda on the fence about this one.

Bob's point on Discord was that people enjoyed being able to duck into the club and get fully buffed and healed by a dual logged PPU - this feels cheap. I understand that it's popular with 'casual' PVPers like Bob, but why are we encouring a single-player to multi-box like this? Community - if they want to fight with PPU support, make friends with a PPU.

On the other hand, the club itself offers no actual advantage to the people who control it (even the guard NPCs are just a minor annoyance rather than an asset), so keeping it like this is pretty pointless.

[bobhoskins]

Lol mal you like making up stuff. My point was for the casual pvper... being able to sit in the club and pop back in 30minutes of being AFK to see if anyone across the zone line to fight with. Also for RED SL characters its beneficial. And the main point is that PVP in pp1 has dried up since club changes were made

[Mal]

And the main point is that PVP in pp1 has dried up since club changes were made

It's moved 2 zones away into PP3. And IIRC the main issue raised with this was that you have to run slightly further. Not the most compelling argument in the world.

[bobhoskins]

Lol so you have just referenced the fact that players still want the safe zone for fighting next to due to moving into PP3 for the Bum Asylum safety. Thank you for supporting the argument

[Mal]

As I said, I'm on the fence about it and don't feel strongly either way.

I feel it's a shame that the club doesn't offer a better benefit for ownership, and it's a missed opportunity to do something really worth while - rather than it just being a place for people to idle or stow away a dual-logged PPU...

And if people are using PP3 and the Bum Asylum, then that supports the argument that reverting the club won't make much of a difference to casual PVP - as it's still going on, albeit in a different area.

[William Antrim]

When NC2 was launched we had no safezones at all for a while. Even Plaza 1 wasnt safe. There was rampant E-peen fighting everywhere. On Jupiter in NC1 they even had belt drops in Op zones! :)

It was great.

The community at the time whined like fuck though that they didnt have the opportunity to reimplant their LEs or have anywhere that was safe that they could go to to hide from the evil pkers.

Back then "anti" city also werent allowed in the city at all (copbots would one shot them) so all of the trading and interaction moved to Tech haven as it was neutral. This fragmented the community and took the vets away from the newbs (akin to the effect of Dalaran in WOW) and stopped everyone seeing other players.

P1 was made back into a safezone in short order (before the dust could settle really) and then we had fights in P2 - where everyone would run from the safezone fully ppu buffed and fight till half health and then run back to the safezone and go again.

Changing the safezone just moves the fight from zoneline to another.

In NC1 we used to fight in Pepper Park 1 with the P3 zone line. Oddly we didnt use ppu buffs back then, maybe cos most of us didnt dual log or we didnt have the capped chars or whatever i dont know. It seemed better because you saw all different kinds of fighters there, PEs tanks and spies alike. It was still zoneline hugging pvp but it felt nicer due to the variety.

Personally I love the idea of not having any safezones at all. I would welcome it in a heartbeat. But the problem is there are a whole bunch of other things that also would need to change in this game in order to make it viable. Tradeskillers would need to change massivley and a whole bunch of things about item drop, soullight rules, missions, copbots the works.

It wouldnt be as simple as press the button and see what happens because this has been done countless times down the years to pander to the community and as always there has been a downside which wasnt foreseen but had a huge negative impact on the community. Hindsight is a great teacher and experience is its bedfellow.

I dont think it matters where you put the safe zone - as soon as there is one people will use it to fight on because death in this game is a ball ache and nobody wants to die. That is the fundamental reason why you get such poor quality "casual" pvp now.

[bobhoskins]

Good points will, i agree with most and would love to see safe zone's abandoned entirely for certain period. I'm just trying to focus my points on what is possible to change right now without too much effort.

[Mal]

Good points will, i agree with most and would love to see safe zone's abandoned entirely for certain period. I'm just trying to focus my points on what is possible to change right now without too much effort.

I'm not sure I understand. A moment ago you were saying that the club was a bad thing as it killed casual PVP. Wouldn't removing safe zones from the game do more harm for casual PVP?

[bobhoskins]

Lol damn these Bad dragon members like clutching at straws- "Good points will, i agree with most and would love to see safe zone's abandoned entirely for certain period" - Key point in statement being Certain period.

[Chazz]

Whats so bad about PP3 ? you can park your ppu as a casual in the safe Zone and there is no Plaza nearby where you can dance around copbots . PP1 or PP3 i dont really care but for most parts pp3 is better fighting zone because there are not so much possibilities to sync away you even have 2 safe zones ...

[bobhoskins]

Lol won't even bother responding to that nonsense post that supports the original point at Chazz. Thank you

[AlvaroT]

Maybe its time to reduce SI and chance to implant pop out after death? Returning to fight is taking too long. Also person that sync out to safe zone damaged by other player, should have some lingering debuff that allow to be damaged by others without retaliation from copbots.

[Odimara Orca]

I was in favour of the removal of the safe Zone but as people pointed out it pretty much backfired.

I changed my opinion on it.

The punishment for dying and the time it takes to get back in the fight are just to long.

If you'd cut SI to zero and remove the possibility to lose implants while fighting in certain Areas you'd see more activity.

Is there a possibility to implement something like this?

Like am open world neofrag?

Would be fun to have different areas designated a war zone depending on what the devs feel like. A change of location every week or so.

Other than that there is no way around zone whoring.

The time lost from dying -> SI -> reimplant is just to great.

[JoshCooper]

The punishment for dying and the time it takes to get back in the fight are just to long.

If you'd cut SI to zero and remove the possibility to lose implants while fighting in certain Areas you'd see more activity.

Is there a possibility to implement something like this?

Like am open world neofrag?

Would be fun to have different areas designated a war zone depending on what the devs feel like. A change of location every week or so.

Other than that there is no way around zone whoring.

The time lost from dying -> SI -> reimplant is just to great.

I don't think the idea of turning the world into neofrag would sit well with many people.

If after killing someone they could return immediately it'd negate the feeling of accomplishment after killing someone. This downtime also gives the killer the time to hack the belt. Without downtime we might as well do away with belts dropping too as you could be back there before they even have chance to finish hacking.

It'd be impossible to attack an OP as a dead defender would be back literally within seconds, whereas an attacker would be out for minutes.

It would completely change this game into something like COD / CS.

Edit Addition:
I could see the benefit of reducing the SI somewhat, maybe to 30% or 20%? Not remove it though, it'd be faster to killself then gr around.

[Odimara Orca]

I don't think the idea of turning the world into neofrag would sit well with many people.

If after killing someone they could return immediately it'd negate the feeling of accomplishment after killing someone. This downtime also gives the killer the time to hack the belt. Without downtime we might as well do away with belts dropping too as you could be back there before they even have chance to finish hacking.

It'd be impossible to attack an OP as a dead defender would be back literally within seconds, whereas an attacker would be out for minutes.

It would completely change this game into something like COD / CS.

Edit Addition:
I could see the benefit of reducing the SI somewhat, maybe to 30% or 20%? Not remove it though, it'd be faster to killself then gr around.

One Zone not the whole game.

[bmurph101]

Always a fan of Will's posts. Liked what I saw in there.

Definitely not advocating for altering SI/Imps at all. There needs to be a penalty for dying. Removing it would make living or dying in a fight pointless.

Honestly PP3 has a more enjoyable layout for PvP in my opinion. I've almost never seen people PvP there. The only consistent PvP I've seen in the past 2-3 months has been in P3 dancing around Copbots.

[William Antrim]

I dont want to throw your topic off course here, I just want to add my 2ps worth.

I dont think the issue you guys feel is a problem is the safezones but at heart it is the lack of pvp.

I think we can all agree that wherever there is a safezone you will see people fight along the edge of it. The reason for this is highly likely (in my opinion) due to the death penalties. I have campaigned against the stiff penalties for death in this game for sometime. I am an advocate of making the game as casual friendly as absolutely possible because in my mind it is the only way to encourage a higher population and stimulate growth.

However I think this is the issue massively, a proposed tweaking of the death rules may stimulate the growth you guys require but at the same time it could easily be a symptom of the lower populations you are experiencing. Pvp is fun, levelling is... a different kind of fun. When you go to pvp you are giving up the time earning progress in your char for a different kind of fun. The limited time you are spending waiting for a fight could have been spent elsewhere on a woc-grind or pking in your bomber or whatever. This is in my mind, a direct result of a lack of population and a lack of casual pvp where you can go and fight and not risk anything.

I think honestly the "only" answer to this is not as extreme as removing safezones but as Bob said in his has last post or two - find a place where consensual pvp can take place which has limited negatives and only the positives.

If only there was a place where runners could go for "virtual fights" or be able to "hovercab their skills with other runners......"

:)

[Odimara Orca]

I am an advocate of making the game as casual friendly as absolutely possible because in my mind it is the only way to encourage a higher population and stimulate growth.

Nice to finally see your Agenda.

[bobhoskins]

Still waiting on this....

[Mal]

Still waiting on this....

It took 6 weeks from suggestion to implementation. You've got 5 more to wait ;)

[Celt]

I think we can all agree that wherever there is a safezone you will see people fight along the edge of it. The reason for this is highly likely (in my opinion) due to the death penalties.
It's because people dislike dying and feeling like they've lost. Even if you have to zonewhore, as long as you don't die you can tell yourself that you didn't lose and make up various reasons as to why you actually "won".


I have campaigned against the stiff penalties for death in this game for sometime.
Meaningless death is a terrible idea and will destroy whatever PVP happens to be left. If killing someone creates no tangible loss for them (whether time or items or money), then you will quickly grow tired of killing them. NC isn't a perfectly balanced e-sport where you have the thrill of beating someone with all parties know that you could only have beaten them because you are the better player.


I am an advocate of making the game as casual friendly as absolutely possible because in my mind it is the only way to encourage a higher population and stimulate growth.
Removing death penalties isn't casual friendly, increasing the amount of safe zones and increasing penalties for killing runners who are significantly lower level than you in non-warzones is casual friendly.


However I think this is the issue massively, a proposed tweaking of the death rules may stimulate the growth you guys require but at the same time it could easily be a symptom of the lower populations you are experiencing.
Nothing is going to stimulate growth, therefore the aim should be to improve on what needs improving and if that isn't enough to draw players, nothing will.

Chasing what you hope intangible players want is a fools errand. Figure out where the product needs improving, and work accordingly. Which is mostly what the devs have been doing.



I think honestly the "only" answer to this is not as extreme as removing safezones but as Bob said in his has last post or two - find a place where consensual pvp can take place which has limited negatives and only the positives.

If only there was a place where runners could go for "virtual fights" or be able to "hovercab their skills with other runners......"

:)
Even when I was playing on Uranus with 400+ runners no-one used Neofrag. Giving Neofrag rules to an external zone isn't going to change that.

People zonewhore because they don't want to die. People PVP because they want to feel positive from 'beating' someone else in the game, not because they want a fair contest. Killing someone who suffers zero consequences from that death is not going to feel like beating anyone.

Duels were different, because duels were one v one with no exploits, no gaming the rules, and no running away. They were public and people suffered a reputational gain/loss.

How can people have played the game for so long and still understand so little about it?

[Odimara Orca]

I don't care about dying and losing.

I do care about getting Group Ganked, losing my PA and needing 10 Minutes to get fight ready again.

If it's 1o1 i don't even care about losing PA or getting fight ready that much.

But imo the PPU thing is kind of cancerish.

If we could at least get rid of SI and popping out Implants for certain zones. Would allow you to go on rolling in succession.

I had some really fun wars in neofrag.

The problem is that it mist be organized and neofrag are hard to reach.

If i could just zone somewhere it would be different.

How about a warzone with a few hackable boxes in the middle which spawn a Rarepart each every 8 hours or so? Maybe a low chance of a MC5 part? Or a low chance of a special PA / Weapon?

It would allow the Devs to give the players the incentive to fight for something.

But it would be camped 24/7 by big clangroups though.

[William Antrim]

Celt

Always a pleasure to chew the fat with you. I think your take on Uranus populations and activities is vastly different to my memory here but thats life. I never had the pleasure of joining the Ronins because I didnt start playing till Dec 02 and they had more or less self destructed by then. I remember using NF loads for duels, all of the major english speaking clans did. We used it for testing setups, duels and all kinds of things. The reason, I believe, that it wasnt used for actual deathmatch is due to the bugs that were inherent in it that werent replicated in the "real" world.

As for your points on death penalties. Well there we just have to differ. Its not a case of not knowing anything about the game really, its just a difference of opinion. Nothing in your post states any facts, they are just opinions. I have my opinions too and they can quite happily contradict yours and others. It is the world according to my perception, so of course it is going to be personal to me. Criticising me for making assumptions of what I think people want and then doing the same thing yourself a moment or two later just makes me wonder if you are trying to troll me or you haven't realised you've done it. Either way it only serves to detract from the discussion.

Zoneline pvp has never been fun for me. Im not a fan, never have been. As technology has moved on so have the cheap tactics because people simply don't want to die. I think the penalties are a direct contributing component of that. For me that's why they zone out at half health. Thats what my experience has led me to believe. However the thrill of killing someone whether they lose something or not actually doesnt feel any different I think in all honesty. The big difference is you are more likely to be able to if they have less incentive to zone out.

I have seen plenty of other games where death penalties are limited absolutely thrive in the pvp scenario. I could cite plenty. I dont because there is no point. One of the biggest turn offs in gaming, for me, is getting killed and having a massive ball ache to replace what you lost. I came to NC from an arena shooter background so perhaps my years of playing UT and Quake coloured my perception in that direction somewhat.

Saying nothing is going to stimulate growth and then saying on the next line figure out what needs improving... eh? If nothing is going to stimulate growth then whats the point in anything? Whats the point in even posting at all? At the end of the day NC has a chance to survive if the people running it and the people playing it are passionate about it. What needs to be improved again is completely wide open to interpretation by the individual, we all have different priorities.

I would like to see NC core mechanics stay as they are for the most part with some minor improvement to the PVP element to encourage people to fight more. I dont see any other way forward for the game. It isnt getting a graphic overhaul any time soon. It isnt getting an engine port, it may get a steam release when it is balanced but with solid core mechanics, a fairly comprehensive tutorial system and some decent shooter mechanics. If this happens and it can take the best parts of modern games and replicate them in its own way I think it has as good a chance as any.

Odi... I have never had an agenda its carries such a negative stigma I tend not to use it. I prefer to think of it as wanting the best for the game how I see it. If others have an axe to grind because I get on their nerves thats their problem, not mine.