View Full Version : PVP fixes
greensoldier
12-04-17, 22:19
1. PvP not moving lag (yes, this is being worked on)
2. Stealth: a few options to make spies killable when versing 5-6 players in an open field: pick or choose, many people might have better ideas, but here’s my go at it:
a. Stealth tool gives drug flash after 3-5 times of use. More usage makes drug flash get worse and worse. (from Bug)
b. Stealth tool does not give 100 percent stealth coverage (i.e. 5 sec cool down after every use)
JoshCooper
12-04-17, 22:27
I agree that there should be atleast a cool down on stealthing (TS debuff that lasts x seconds applied when a stealth ends?). Also after multiple stealth uses there should be a drug flash hit
1 is under active development.
2 changes to Stealth Tools may be required - however, this is a complicated process, as it affects the balance of both the Spy and PE classes, and requires careful consideration. If any changes are made, I doubt it would be a quick process.
Truesight Sanctum gives a Debuff that doesnt let you enter stealth for x seconds (dont know a number but would say less than 10 seconds)
I'd more prefer the ability to still attack stealthed players when you track them.
Nothing more lame than stickybacking somebody to one/two hits and watching them stealth away, and you WATCHING that stealth cloud walk around for a brief moment :mad:
just mark the stealth with a fire winding argument.. spies have much lower resist compared to tanks, and is the primary reason they are able to be able to stand up against one. I don't think OP fights should go back to just Tanks and PPUs, also like chazz said, tss is a thing..
and no, I don't play spy.. I am almost always a PPU or a dev tank. I just don't think destroying their survivability option is a good idea, I like variety.
just mark the stealth with a fire winding argument.. spies have much lower resist compared to tanks, and is the primary reason they are able to be able to stand up against one. I don't think OP fights should go back to just Tanks and PPUs, also like chazz said, tss is a thing..
and no, I don't play spy.. I am almost always a PPU or a dev tank. I just don't think destroying their survivability option is a good idea, I like variety.
TSS being a thing doesn't mean anything, because almost no one has the ability to cast that ability. Saying "one playstyle can counter them" isn't, by any stretch of the words, a viable solution.
No one is asking for their invisibility to be removed. It's their survivability. I don't think anyone disputes that.
People are just tired of spies essentially being immortal due to being invisible and and invulnerable. You can't have both of those options on the table for one class.
Just because you're cloaked, doesn't mean you should be invulnerable.
Editing, It's not even worth trying to explain how outplaying, tactics, and thought process works (from any class standpoint), when it just goes over peoples heads.
you aren't while invis.. even when using, if the player had reticle on the target, they will get off that last attack, you can use AoE ie Winding Argument like I suggested (at least used to, idk with aoe nerf) used to destroy stealthed spies, as well as marking them for when they come out. Also cursed soul (at least last time I played) hits through stealth, you don't need a reticle for CS, the plasma just hits whatever is infront of it, instead of registering damage to it's actual target.
There are ways around it, you just need to think outside of the box. Stealth is the only thing making spies viable, and changing pretty much any aspect of that will destroy them.
We used aoe and it got nerfed 4-5x to the point of being completely worthless. The CS does pathetic damage to stealthers and isn't viable against them. TSS rarely works unless they stand next to you. We run around with TL 3 grenade launchers armed with napalm to reveal stealth and it just isn't enough, the dots only last like 5 seconds.
Did you know spies got energy resist on their PA? Or that Psi and Str imps are better than ever for shields and better armors?... or nanites are as good or better than pe shields? or that the reqs on INQ (fire) armor that PEs use was lowered and spies can use it now?
Get yourself a first love and learn how to move cause spies are not underpowered. Stealth is OP as fuck and nerfing it will only hurt the bad spies.
nevermind, not worth the time..
Editing, It's not even worth trying to explain how outplaying, tactics, and thought process works (from any class standpoint), when it just goes over peoples heads.
Have a friend go cloaked in front of you.
You cannot target them with your crosshair. At least not with melee weapons.
If you can't see why that is fundamentally flawed, then I don't know what to tell you.
TSS being a thing doesn't mean anything, because almost no one has the ability to cast that ability. Saying "one playstyle can counter them" isn't, by any stretch of the words, a viable solution.
No one is asking for their invisibility to be removed. It's their survivability. I don't think anyone disputes that.
People are just tired of spies essentially being immortal due to being invisible and and invulnerable. You can't have both of those options on the table for one class.
Just because you're cloaked, doesn't mean you should be invulnerable.
Ok Arzon is a little right but so is Murph
PPU can counter it with TSS but its dont know buggy atleast a little or the range is too small i have to stand very close to the one i want to destealth and they just use stealth again and again.
it needs some kind of debuff so you cant spam it and escape everytime and come back with full health and do the same again if you have skill you can escape with 1 stealth.
you should not be able to use stealth get kicked out of it cause your movement sucks and stealth again to reach ,in the wastelands, a sync and stealth again ...
ChrisTehClue
13-04-17, 12:19
I would like to say that even if other people cant "Target" you, they can still aim, shoot and kill you.
I would say if anything stealth tool users aren't invisble enough.
I dont even bother using one in the middle of a fight because at most, it's a slight inconvenience for your attacker.
Still useful for PvE though.
chris, stealth is used a lot in PvP, since spies can't take the hits like PEs, PPUs, and Tanks can. It is part of their playstyle.. which is what I was trying to explain, and explain there are ways to counter it..
The people complaining about it are all from the same clan, probably trying to get it nerfed because they don't know how to play against it, and trying to make it look like the community as a whole wants it changed
ChrisTehClue
13-04-17, 12:57
If you are saying that stealth tools aren't even an inconvenience to the attacker, wtf is the point in using it?
I missread your post, I thought you said it was an inconvenience to use.. just waking up, that threw me off lol.
PaIn_EaSeR1337
13-04-17, 14:14
chris, stealth is used a lot in PvP, since spies can't take the hits like PEs, PPUs, and Tanks can. It is part of their playstyle.. which is what I was trying to explain, and explain there are ways to counter it..
As long as the counter attacks worked, there would not be an issue.
I can hit the stealth with a whole clip from a Winding Argument and do no more than 5% - 10% of his HP as the weapon (which is a RARE) hits for 3 or 4 damage a hit + DOT
Log into the game, and actually play it properly.. You sound like you haven't logged in game for the past few months.
it has already been mentioned in this post, and in another that AoE needs to be fixed, read more than 1 message next time. Also that was just 1 example of what to do, and was more so for the marking of the spy.
PaIn_EaSeR1337
13-04-17, 14:49
it has already been mentioned in this post, and in another that AoE needs to be fixed, read more than 1 message next time. Also that was just 1 example of what to do, and was more so for the marking of the spy.
Its been mentioned for a long time, well before these posts were made on the forum.... you probably wouldn't of been aware of that tho, as you are a forum warrior.
chris, stealth is used a lot in PvP, since spies can't take the hits like PEs, PPUs, and Tanks can. It is part of their playstyle.. which is what I was trying to explain, and explain there are ways to counter it..
The people complaining about it are all from the same clan, probably trying to get it nerfed because they don't know how to play against it, and trying to make it look like the community as a whole wants it changed
Murph is not in the same clan, im not in the same clan but we all complain about it because its slightly overpowered and not so good countered as you think
Murph is a Solo PvPler as far as ive seen , ok he mixes himself into big fights ,but he knows the melee sight of things , he cant do anything about a stealther except run behind them until the next sync where the syncing times come into play -> you lose your target
Im a PPU and can tell you TSS is not working properly and if i kick someone out of stealth with it they just restealth and you lose them at one point
PaIn_EaSeR1337
13-04-17, 16:59
Murph is not in the same clan, im not in the same clan but we all complain about it because its slightly overpowered and not so good countered as you think
Murph is a Solo PvPler as far as ive seen , ok he mixes himself into big fights ,but he knows the melee sight of things , he cant do anything about a stealther except run behind them until the next sync where the syncing times come into play -> you lose your target
Im a PPU and can tell you TSS is not working properly and if i kick someone out of stealth with it they just restealth and you lose them at one point
This guy knows what he's talking about..... take note Arzon
Murph is not in the same clan, im not in the same clan but we all complain about it because its slightly overpowered and not so good countered as you think
Murph is a Solo PvPler as far as ive seen , ok he mixes himself into big fights ,but he knows the melee sight of things , he cant do anything about a stealther except run behind them until the next sync where the syncing times come into play -> you lose your target
Im a PPU and can tell you TSS is not working properly and if i kick someone out of stealth with it they just restealth and you lose them at one point
This pretty much sums up the thread.
The 2 heavily active clans both agree that stealth is broken. I don't happen to be a member of either clan, but that doesn't mean I can't objectively see the broken side of things.
No one is asking for Stealth to be removed, simply to be reworked. Currently, it's OP due to the fact that there is no counter to it. Every Spy instantly controls the rules of engagement in the fight, simply because they're a Spy. There needs to be some sort of deeper meta to Open PvP other than "Uh oh, he has a stealth tool, I won't be able to kill him unless he's an idiot"
As far as me personally, Chazz is correct. I deliberately went TS because they are hostile to both CA and BD, meaning if one side is outnumbered I can instantly show up and help the other side out. It also means I can kill both sides with impunity.
The only reason I fought with BD at some recent Ops was because Jack messaged me saying, "Hey we're doing Op Wars now; BG has about 11-12 and we only have 4-5. Wanna come?" Had Chazz been in the same position, I would have showed up on their side.
hmm also thought that a little cooldown might work on stealthtools since it s sometimes rly annyoing to chase sniper spys in wastelands when they use their 30 sec stealth but 5 sec cooldown is too much. like arzon said stealth is part of the spys playstyle and aoe needs to useful again like it was before they did their balancing on that. aoe was kinda cool before with being very dangerous to spys but you still had to be careful not to kill your team or to kill yourself cause selfinflicted dmg was higher.
was thinking maybe having a little cooldown before you can put a stealthtool into your hand again depending on the stealthtool you use. maybe like a 0.5 sec cd on stealth I , 1 sec on stealth II and always increase with 0,5 sec per toollvl or something like that.
Yes, theres is a thing like stealth in NC, and you can't easily kill a stealthed runner. Since a stealthed char can't kill anyone either, why can't we all be friends and get over this? Like in "play both a tank and a spy and enjoy different play styles"?
William Antrim
25-04-17, 13:38
Only you would be blind enough to post about being friends in a PVP thread Torg. That is a whole new level of special right there. The irony is brilliant.
I dont play this game any more I admit but I know the history behind stealth tools and their use and abuse. Havent logged in in some time so this "AOE being useless" aspect is news to me.
I thought that with the balancing there might be some new items to counter this sort of thing? To me it seems pretty obvious that the TSS needs to be removed from the rare pool and recreated as a storebought weapon. It should then have its PSI requirement lowered to 30 and it should be able to be used by anyone with the right level of skill. It would give PEs another skill to complement their "utility" builds and remove one more headache for the PPU.
It should also cancel out ANY stealth effect on the caster too. This would do 2 things for balance A) remove the stealth of the opponent as intended but also B) remove it from the caster so that he cant abuse the right to wield it either by stealthing himself whilst his opponent cannot.
It would work like a rock paper scissors type scenario I would imagine. The only drawback I could see would be your average hybrid possibly just wrecking spies before they had the chance to fight back. But that said I dont actually know if hybrids are viable in the current end game.
Id have to leave that sort of argument to you guys.
Only you would be blind enough to post about being friends in a PVP thread Torg. That is a whole new level of special right there. The irony is brilliant.
I dont play this game any more I admit but I know the history behind stealth tools and their use and abuse. Havent logged in in some time so this "AOE being useless" aspect is news to me.
I thought that with the balancing there might be some new items to counter this sort of thing? To me it seems pretty obvious that the TSS needs to be removed from the rare pool and recreated as a storebought weapon. It should then have its PSI requirement lowered to 30 and it should be able to be used by anyone with the right level of skill. It would give PEs another skill to complement their "utility" builds and remove one more headache for the PPU.
It should also cancel out ANY stealth effect on the caster too. This would do 2 things for balance A) remove the stealth of the opponent as intended but also B) remove it from the caster so that he cant abuse the right to wield it either by stealthing himself whilst his opponent cannot.
It would work like a rock paper scissors type scenario I would imagine. The only drawback I could see would be your average hybrid possibly just wrecking spies before they had the chance to fight back. But that said I dont actually know if hybrids are viable in the current end game.
Id have to leave that sort of argument to you guys.
I kind of like where you're headed.
As far as hybrids go, they're currently the strongest class in game. Very few people play them because they're honestly not that fun; they can take more damage than a Tank, (self) heal on par with a PPU, and their sustained damage output via the poison spell is substantial. I'd say the only thing they lack is tremendous burst damage (like say, Devo or Ion pistols).
If you went that route with TSS, I'd say you have to put the PSI requirement to zero. The core issue isn't in group PvP; in groups, you can focus any class down and kill them quick enough with coordination. Sure the stealth abuse buys them time sometimes, but realistically if a spy gets focused at an OP fight they're dead in about 5 seconds.
The issue is that OP fighting isn't the #1 source of PvP these days. The majority of PvP is small scale 1 vs 1 vs 1, 1 vs 2, 2 vs 3, etc. In these cases, the stealth abuse is glaring, because in small scale almost no one will be rolling as a PPU (I think Chazz is the literally the only guy who mains a PPU, correct me if I'm wrong). Most people aren't looking for something that will render a Spy useless in small scale, they just want SOMETHING that they can use to counter his stealth tool.
Like, for example, myself as a Melee Tank has zero ability to counter a stealth tool. Not a consumable item. Not a spell. Not an AoE weapon. Like John Wick will show up to fight me, and unless he goes full derp, I can't kill him. I can wreck him all the way to 5% and still be 95%, but I'll never actually be able to kill him so long as he abuses stealth.
I only use Melee Tank because that's a personal example for me that I know well, but I know there are plenty of other classes/setups that also have zero way to counter stealth. There shouldn't be any class/setup that's put in a situation where they have zero chance to win. It's unhealthy for any game's health.
Well if you take my TSS away and give it to everyone PPU loses another point for being existant atm.
PPUs lack the strong shields they once had and the Heal isnt as strong at it used to be.
I know a PPU can be nearly unkillable even now but a hybrid can be just as bad if you lom it right.
There needs to be a serious though but into Balancing from a PvP point of View.
Apus - Clearly need love they dont do the High Burst Damage anymore that gave them their right as a Glass Cannon , just the Class remains
PPUs - Only use now is being a sligthly better buffer and Shields then Hybrids or selfbuffs and TSS most rare spells are Shit atm
Spys - Apart from annoying People with Stealth they do less DMG then they used to but still useful for Small Fights , Opfights it gets tricky sometimes to keep them alive
Tanks
HC-Tanks - are good as they are now
Melee-Tanks - are dmg wise ok but they need somekind of AoE against stealthers or some weapon that gives a Anti stealth Debuff
PE - Most Useful and Allround Class , with some weapon Setups they are extrem Hard to Beat and do good Dmg
Hybrids (Monk) - Currently Hardest to beat Class and makes Pure Monks nearly obsolet because they do good DMG close to Apu and have a very High Survivalability + Good Team Buffs
-> Someone should take a look at the Rare Monk spells and make them better again , we dont talk EXTREM better here but useful again
-> Give Melee Tanks a little AoE Weapon or add an AoE effect to some weapon thats currently Shit , hell maybe change the Grenades to Melee Weapons and make them better ( Melee Grenades , you need to throw them XD)
I try to take every Class into Account so dont go on with Chazz you play PPU so you want them Buffed and Unbeatable , no i dont want that , there are Modules and even Tools you can use to deshield a PPU but nobody needs to use them and then Focus a PPU anymore because Tanks Devos do enough DMG through the Shields to kill them.
Most dont even understand why someone should play a Class that only can support others and cant hurt a Fly
->Maybe even add the Freeze again , dont talk about that slow now but a freeze like it was NC2.1 again
How about adding willpower reguirment for stealth activators, like 75 willpower for stealth 1 etc...So only droners could use them and leave the jones stealth tool for pvp.
William Antrim
27-04-17, 16:46
How about adding willpower reguirment for stealth activators, like 75 willpower for stealth 1 etc...So only droners could use them and leave the jones stealth tool for pvp.
I like this idea a lot. Chazz I think youre going way off topic with your suggestions and are contradicting things a little with your opening line. Removing TSS from the ppu solely is hardly a bad idea. If anything it allows more people to wield it. There is no reason why ONLY a ppu should have it. If anyone with the required PSI had it (perhaps put a negative APU on it to remove it from the hands of hybrids) then it means that PPU AND OTHER classes can have it also. It means it removes the requirement from one character and diversifies it across the rest of the pvp spectrum.
Id go so far as to say give it to some spies as well tbh. Stealth ruins pvp. If you havent got the balls to die, you shouldnt have the balls to fight.
Too many "zoneline warriors" in this games history have slowly drained the game into the low population it currently has. The quality of pvp's attraction is the satisfaction when someone dies. Stealth just leaves one person frustrated and the other a coward. If that is the experience people want then please leave it in the game. However if you go back to the glory days we fought without it.
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