Understanding skills performance

[drenergetico]

(Sorry mod, may you move it to Guides & Questions category ?, though that I was there when posting.)

Hi all.

Im a returning player, since the time of the box retail... still have it.

It's really nice to play NC again, but, Im very confused with some skills perfomance, have searched here and googled about but still not sure, so would like to double check.

Here is the question, I have a rifle spy, so I rely on weapon lore and rifle skills. But... how many points should I put to max it, I know in the past there was caps, but can you confirm if there is any cap now ?.

On the other side, more points on weapon lore will mean even better and better aim ?, and, more points on rifle would mean more damage ?.

Thank you in advance.

[Noldus]

It's been stated that the damage calculation is simplified and changed such that for rifles only DEX mainskill and R-C subskill are factors in the calculation. No cap, but diminishing returns from additional skill points above a certain level. So basically you can just keep adding as many R-C points as possible.

Frequency is supposedly a static value in the current state, and not influenced by any skills at all.

All other calculations are supposedly unchanged, so I assume the old skill influence table is still valid for them.

Old skill influence:

Lowtech Rifle Combat

(Damage (100): Base 10 %, R-C 70 %, WEP 20 %) --Now based on DEX and R-C
Aim Speed (100): Base 20 %, R-C 40 %, WEP 40 %
Aim Precision (100): Base 20 %, R-C 40 %, WEP 40 %
(Frequency (100): Base 10 %, R-C 40 %, WEP 50 %) --Now a fixed value, not influenced by skills
Range (100): Base 10 %, R-C 20 %, WEP 70 %
Handling (100): Base 10 %, R-C 30 %, WEP 35 %, AGL 25 %

Hightech Rifle Combat

(Damage (100): Base 10 %, R-C 70 %, WEP 20 %) --Now based on DEX and R-C
Aim Speed (110): Base 30 %, R-C 40 %, T-C 20 %, WEP 20 %
Aim Precision (110): Base 30 %, R-C 40 %, T-C 20 %, WEP 20 %
(Frequency (100): Base 20 %, R-C 30 %, T-C 30 %, WEP 20 %) --Now a fixed value, not influenced by skills
Range (100): Base 20 %, R-C 20 %, T-C 30 %, WEP 30 %
Handling (110): Base 20 %, R-C 30 %, T-C 20 %, WEP 20 %, AGL 20 %

If this info is incorrect, please correct me.

[Odimara Orca]

It's been stated that the damage calculation is simplified and changed such that for rifles only DEX mainskill and R-C subskill are factors in the calculation. No cap, but diminishing returns from additional skill points above a certain level. So basically you can just keep adding as many R-C points as possible.

Frequency is supposedly a static value in the current state, and not influenced by any skills at all.

All other calculations are supposedly unchanged, so I assume the old skill influence table is still valid for them.

Old skill influence:

Lowtech Rifle Combat

(Damage (100): Base 10 %, R-C 70 %, WEP 20 %) --Now based on DEX and R-C
Aim Speed (100): Base 20 %, R-C 40 %, WEP 40 %
Aim Precision (100): Base 20 %, R-C 40 %, WEP 40 %
(Frequency (100): Base 10 %, R-C 40 %, WEP 50 %) --Now a fixed value, not influenced by skills
Range (100): Base 10 %, R-C 20 %, WEP 70 %
Handling (100): Base 10 %, R-C 30 %, WEP 35 %, AGL 25 %

Hightech Rifle Combat

(Damage (100): Base 10 %, R-C 70 %, WEP 20 %) --Now based on DEX and R-C
Aim Speed (110): Base 30 %, R-C 40 %, T-C 20 %, WEP 20 %
Aim Precision (110): Base 30 %, R-C 40 %, T-C 20 %, WEP 20 %
(Frequency (100): Base 20 %, R-C 30 %, T-C 30 %, WEP 20 %) --Now a fixed value, not influenced by skills
Range (100): Base 20 %, R-C 20 %, T-C 30 %, WEP 30 %
Handling (110): Base 20 %, R-C 30 %, T-C 20 %, WEP 20 %, AGL 20 %

If this info is incorrect, please correct me.

Damage = Mainskill + Subskill
Frequency Fixed

Those statements are right.

For everything else you can trash the old values, the damage is calculated completely different now.

For the specifics we'd need an answer from NST.

[Drake6k]

https://wiki.techhaven.org/Weapon_Skill_Influence_Guide

[drenergetico]

Thanks for your help guys, as always, really nice community.

I was quite confused with changes and was not sure what info was correct/updated. You helped me a lot but, let me focus into Noldus answer:

"No cap, but diminishing returns from additional skill points above a certain level. So basically you can just keep adding as many R-C points as possible."

Would be of use to know what point are recommended to max every skill just at the point where diminishing returns appear... mmm... devs ? ;)
Maybe any rifle spy may tell us a recommended RC and WL levels.

Again, thanks for your help and for answering.

[Odimara Orca]

Thanks for your help guys, as always, really nice community.

I was quite confused with changes and was not sure what info was correct/updated. You helped me a lot but, let me focus into Noldus answer:

"No cap, but diminishing returns from additional skill points above a certain level. So basically you can just keep adding as many R-C points as possible."

Would be of use to know what point are recommended to max every skill just at the point where diminishing returns appear... mmm... devs ? ;)
Maybe any rifle spy may tell us a recommended RC and WL levels.

Again, thanks for your help and for answering.

Depends on TL of weapon, i think to reach 100% on a tl 115 you need something like 119 mainskill 275 subskill?

You'll have to find it out yourself with testing.

[NeosoliD]

Does melee need any weapon lore?

[nikkon]

what about hacknet with all the skills changing can we get a link to show what all is needed for each type of combat?

[Sidhardha]

Hacknet seems just to need Hacking and Tech Lore.

[hudsonbeck]

https://wiki.techhaven.org/Weapon_Skill_Influence_Guide
I am trying to understand this more as a returning player. I see the link Drake6k posted to the THN wiki... is this still correct?

I was told on the Help channel today that droners WPW is just a req and has no influence, but on the wiki it shows WPW is in the calculations more than just a req:
Drone Combat (RCL)
## Damage (100): Base 10 %, RCL 70 %, T-C 10 %, WPW 10 %
## Aim Speed (100): Base 20 %, RCL 40 %, T-C 20 %, WPW 20 %
## Aim Precision (100): Base 20 %, RCL 40 %, T-C 20 %, WPW 20 %
## Frequency (100): Base 10 %, RCL 30 %, T-C 40 %, WPW 20 %
## Range (100): Base 10 %, RCL 20 %, T-C 40 %, WPW 30 %
## Handling (100): Base 10 %, RCL 30 %, T-C 30 %, WPW 30 %


So, what is right? I don't care if the numbers are absolute or not, but it would be nice to know if something was a req or contributed to the weapon.

Thanks!

[Odimara Orca]

I am trying to understand this more as a returning player. I see the link Drake6k posted to the THN wiki... is this still correct?

I was told on the Help channel today that droners WPW is just a req and has no influence, but on the wiki it shows WPW is in the calculations more than just a req:
Drone Combat (RCL)
## Damage (100): Base 10 %, RCL 70 %, T-C 10 %, WPW 10 %
## Aim Speed (100): Base 20 %, RCL 40 %, T-C 20 %, WPW 20 %
## Aim Precision (100): Base 20 %, RCL 40 %, T-C 20 %, WPW 20 %
## Frequency (100): Base 10 %, RCL 30 %, T-C 40 %, WPW 20 %
## Range (100): Base 10 %, RCL 20 %, T-C 40 %, WPW 30 %
## Handling (100): Base 10 %, RCL 30 %, T-C 30 %, WPW 30 %


So, what is right? I don't care if the numbers are absolute or not, but it would be nice to know if something was a req or contributed to the weapon.

Thanks!

TH is pre patch and meani gless.

For damage Cap Mainskill + Subskill. Frequency is fixed.

Might be that WPW helps with handling. But i would go for 89 and maybe throw the rest into Barter. More pointd are not worth it imo.

[Bossk]

Through testing on my Tank, there is no difference in damage at 116 STR and 250 H-C than there is with 121 STR and 250 H-C.

[drenergetico]

I was reading and reading about, doing some tests with chips and this is what I realized:

If you open a weapon, you will see all the stats, have tried to remove chips and imp others, to increase skill points and this is what I get with a TL98 Ray of Good... keep in mind that Im DEX113, with 163 rifle combat, 109 high tech, 150 weapon lore.

12707

Ive marked the damage stat, 74% and it does no goes up, at least, at this point, no matter what I increase (rifle, high tech, weapon lore).

So, there is any way to max the damage output ?.

[Odimara Orca]

I was reading and reading about, doing some tests with chips and this is what I realized:

If you open a weapon, you will see all the stats, have tried to remove chips and imp others, to increase skill points and this is what I get with a TL98 Ray of Good... keep in mind that Im DEX113, with 163 rifle combat, 109 high tech, 150 weapon lore.

12707

Ive marked the damage stat, 74% and it does no goes up, at least, at this point, no matter what I increase (rifle, high tech, weapon lore).

So, there is any way to max the damage output ?.

T-C and weapon lore don't matter.

Go for 200 R-C then reopen info (it doesn't refresh) you should see a substantial change.

[drenergetico]

Oh no !!!... it didnt work :(

Here are the differences increasing RC upon 3 weapons.

Silent Hunter:
Rifle Combat - Damage stat - Real amount
176 --- 69% --- 498 + 124
183 --- 72% --- 523 + 130
192 --- 76% --- 548 + 137
198 --- 76% --- 548 + 137
200 --- 76% --- 548 + 137

Ray of God:
Rifle Combat - Damage stat - Real amount
176 --- 78% --- 154 + 44 + 22
183 --- 82% --- 162 + 46 + 23
192 --- 86% --- 169 + 48 + 24
198 --- 86% --- 169 + 48 + 24
200 --- 86% --- 169 + 48 + 24

Redeemer
Rifle Combat - Damage stat - Real amount
176 --- 73% --- 131 + 32
183 --- 76% --- 138 + 34
192 --- 80% --- 145 + 36
198 --- 80% --- 145 + 36
200 --- 80% --- 145 + 36

So, at 192 RC, stats and damage does not increase and of course, stats nor damage are capped... barely 80%. The only improvement is that aiming and range increased too per every RC point, as example, SH moved from 193 to 211 at aiming and 1447 to 1481 range, not much for that amount of points.

Feel that loomed some stats to raise RC for nothing and now, have allocated points in RC that are not of use, so should loom again, any idea ???.

[Odimara Orca]

Oh no !!!... it didnt work :(

Here are the differences increasing RC upon 3 weapons.

Silent Hunter:
Rifle Combat - Damage stat - Real amount
176 --- 69% --- 498 + 124
183 --- 72% --- 523 + 130
192 --- 76% --- 548 + 137
198 --- 76% --- 548 + 137
200 --- 76% --- 548 + 137

Ray of God:
Rifle Combat - Damage stat - Real amount
176 --- 78% --- 154 + 44 + 22
183 --- 82% --- 162 + 46 + 23
192 --- 86% --- 169 + 48 + 24
198 --- 86% --- 169 + 48 + 24
200 --- 86% --- 169 + 48 + 24

Redeemer
Rifle Combat - Damage stat - Real amount
176 --- 73% --- 131 + 32
183 --- 76% --- 138 + 34
192 --- 80% --- 145 + 36
198 --- 80% --- 145 + 36
200 --- 80% --- 145 + 36

So, at 192 RC, stats and damage does not increase and of course, stats nor damage are capped... barely 80%. The only improvement is that aiming and range increased too per every RC point, as example, SH moved from 193 to 211 at aiming and 1447 to 1481 range, not much for that amount of points.

Feel that loomed some stats to raise RC for nothing and now, have allocated points in RC that are not of use, so should loom again, any idea ???.

As far as I see the number does move up.

200 R-C is at the low end of achievable values.

Also the higher you go the harder it gets. It's not linear.

Why don't you try something like 250? Then it should cap soon.

[drenergetico]

Thanks for your answers, but... now you recommend... 250 ?.

If your previous 200 goal sound a big number, 250 is quite away as have used almost all points, but HT (for HT rifles), 15 vehicle and 50 at agility.

To reach 250, even with a special forces (+15) and distance projector (+20), I think there are a lot of points left that would be moved from HT, agility or vehicle... unless you get extra points in any other way, dont remember.

Well, at this point I think that the thread "understanding skill performance" would be more clearly to all newbies or returning vets. As we can see, at the previous numbers, the number is 192 (or any other close to as I was not testing each step).

A skill close to 192 (rifle in this case) seems the point where increments become non significant. Its the law of diminishing returns.

So, I... we... all should make up our mind to decide if we want to put almost every point on a skill and cap it or achieve a decent level and keep some points for other useful skills.

Hope this test help other runners.

[Odimara Orca]

Thanks for your answers, but... now you recommend... 250 ?.

If your previous 200 goal sound a big number, 250 is quite away as have used almost all points, but HT (for HT rifles), 15 vehicle and 50 at agility.

To reach 250, even with a special forces (+15) and distance projector (+20), I think there are a lot of points left that would be moved from HT, agility or vehicle... unless you get extra points in any other way, dont remember.

Well, at this point I think that the thread "understanding skill performance" would be more clearly to all newbies or returning vets. As we can see, at the previous numbers, the number is 192 (or any other close to as I was not testing each step).

A skill close to 192 (rifle in this case) seems the point where increments become non significant. Its the law of diminishing returns.

So, I... we... all should make up our mind to decide if we want to put almost every point on a skill and cap it or achieve a decent level and keep some points for other useful skills.

Hope this test help other runners.


I feel you but I just want to clarify that imo your tests show that the system is not broken, but working as intended.

From 200 to 250 you'd see another 10 to 15 percent. But as you said, capping everything is not possible. Mit droner has 15 Vehicle rest into RCL, and he reaches about 80% on TL115 drones. But this is working as intended, you don't cap it, but the base damage is higher so in the end you are still profiting from a higher TL.

I'm actually quite fond of the new system. The only pain point is that it's an indirect buff for MC5 chips and WOC PA's.

[drenergetico]

Oh no... Im not thinking that it does not work as intended, but is confusing as you usually think that, in any way, you can get max performance for weapons or tools, but is (almost) impossible. When you realize how does it works, everything makes sense. Im glad opened this thread, know I understand... thanks :)

As said, there are two paths, trying to get the higher without side skills or just very good but with side skills.

Let me ask, you say that your droner does not have agility ?, isnt it too slow ?.

[drenergetico]

Loomed back to test and double check the rifle:

Silent Hunter:
From 200 to 193 you get 76% damage, 211% aim, 1481m range with a real damage of 548 + 137 (modded).
At 192, 72% damage, 205% aim, 1469m range, with a real damage of 523 + 130

Ray of God:
From 200 to 193, 86% damage, 238% aim, 640m range, with a real damage of 169+48+29 (modded too).
At 192, 82% damage, 231% aim, 636m range, real damage of 162+46+23.

So, the number is 193, if you reach that level, you better have many points left to allocate.

Really hope this helps. ;)

[Kalonji Faya]

damn that topic should be actualised with actual stats...

What are the calculation now ? Freq still fixed ?

I'd love NST to give us a way to make our own setups like we did with NSKill or Neoskiller in NC1 !!!

I still have nskiller source code, maybe if I have the formulas and nskiller maker authorisation I could update nskill 2 to a version 3 for NC 2.3 :) X or Z please answer :)

Kalon