View Full Version : Law Enforcer vs. Clan Join
Hello.
I like to invite new players to our clan but you have to take out the LE first to join. Why?
Every Day all our newbies be killed in Leveling Areas, often from neutral or friendly factions.
We are only a few so cannot look all the time.
Some leave the game.
So a Clan is useless for new players?
Everybody can play like they want. If a bored guy like to kos everyone he can.
But why not LE in and join a Clan?
Downside to this game is LE must come out to join a clan. People don't take them out because people can be dicks. People keep them in and get bored and quit. People bit the bullet remove them join a clan get killed and quit. Only people who seem to keep winning is veteran pkers and they want it this way. As long there is fresh young blood to keep killing for their own perversions I highly doubt will see a change in the future.
It is the age old NC problem.
It was it 14 years ago and it is it still today.
Lets make a hardcore hardcore open world PvP MMO.
Yes, you can do that but this will keep the game always a niche game.
I remember the days where all of Via Rosso and Plaza were safe zones, gone.
I remember removed LE malus, gone.
I even remember a failed all anarchy server that some forum guys wanted so badly, but in the end that seems to be too hardcore for even the hardcore crowd.
KK listend only to the vocal PvP forum minority, and people like me saying this where called carebears.
Now the NST put back in LE malus for some reasons, maybe to "incentive" players to join the "PvP" crowd.
But forcing or penalise people will make them quit.
But they are all simply too weak for NC, aren't they?
If that is their vision, so be it.
I simply don't care anymore. Sadly.
bobhoskins
22-11-16, 10:26
Yeah unfortunately there is a small minority that take pride in killing another runner that is un equipped for PVP. Ok best solution is to annouce runner name on help and location you were killed. I'm sure there are plenty of players who would happily take revenge on these noob killers.
I added this https://forum.neocron-game.com/showthread.php?156800-LE-penalties and took the liberty of adding a reference to here.
It is the age old NC problem.
It was it 14 years ago and it is it still today.
Lets make a hardcore hardcore open world PvP MMO.
Yes, you can do that but this will keep the game always a niche game.
I remember the days where all of Via Rosso and Plaza were safe zones, gone.
I remember removed LE malus, gone.
I even remember a failed all anarchy server that some forum guys wanted so badly, but in the end that seems to be too hardcore for even the hardcore crowd.
KK listend only to the vocal PvP forum minority, and people like me saying this where called carebears.
Now the NST put back in LE malus for some reasons, maybe to "incentive" players to join the "PvP" crowd.
But forcing or penalise people will make them quit.
But they are all simply too weak for NC, aren't they?
If that is their vision, so be it.
I simply don't care anymore. Sadly.
So true so true indeed.
Neocron was amazing back in the day because it was Hardcore in a sense but less hardcore for people who did not want to be part of it. Was there not a time we could put LE's in even at higher levels? I never saw an issue with this ever. Make it so it's a complex or hard proccess or something you can't do often. One the things I remember people making the mistake of taking it out or giving things a try but not ready yet.
Hell even maxed out I'm going be scared with it out as I'm not in neocron for PvP but PvE sadly. I love PvP and might consider even making a PvP character but I enjoy PvE much more first.
Either way I personally will end up drifting away and I love the game a lot and I understand the hardcore players but they need to know that if we made it easier on people in that sense no game design wise more blood would be here and more people without LE's would exist as well.
To answer your question why KK listen to them was because they were organized and whined like crazy. I remember being in the clans where they post threads and organize people to reply to their threads and demolish it. This sort of organization screw the future of Neocron.
Bruder Malmsdoo
22-11-16, 12:09
I am in the same position as you: I cannot fight PVP because my computer ist too slow for decent framerates and and I lack the training. But I like the system like it is because neocron was always about feeling the danger when you go outside. I take the LE out immediately when a char is born.
There are strategies to prevent becoming killed:
1. Choose underpopulated leveling areas. Indeed there are A LOT of them. The only downside: Sometimes you have to drive to them or they lack a gogu.
2. Take buddies with you. You can defend yourself a lot better, especially since the nonrare weapons got a boost. For instance 3 nailgun low-level-runner can be a nightmare for every attacker. A good system bolsters the relations between humans and in the old times neocron forced that cooperation.
3. Ask Clans or the City-Mercs for protection. But they wont do it for only 2 runnners for sure.
4. Spy/PE: You can use a stealth-tool.
Feel free to add more tactics!
Dont get me wrong, I know all this. I did my share of OP fights and "other" PvP activities.
What I want to point out, there was afaik never a server with a PvE mindset and agreeable PvP.
Like: No LE at all, no one can attack each other except only clans who own OPs can be temporarily wardeced (new mechanic) and Neofrag for duells.
One could really scratch the head about the person who invented the Neofrag. Why did he do that?
And the resistance against LE-clans is simply mind-boggling.
Bruder Malmsdoo
22-11-16, 20:01
Hmm ... perhaps because NC always was a quite bad PVE-Game and the Com is very tiny.
There used to be three servers running.
But you are right, today it is a different story.
hudsonbeck
23-11-16, 02:05
Sophie & Kane I completely agree! I hope the NST quickly quickly quickly looks at this...
For me the solution is quite simple.
Allow an LE runner to join a clan, but limit where the LE chip works, I.E warzones, end game leveling area's, MC5 etc.
That way there is an element of risk vs reward, but it keeps places like MB, outzone sectors, cellars safe from gankers.
And it allows clanned LE runners to take part in high level area's with their clan mates, with the support and resources of the clan at their disposal.
William Antrim
24-11-16, 15:02
In NC1 we just used to shout up when we got pked and the community dealt with it. Maybe the community went a little soft or selfish in this new version?
Some of you guys should get together and patrol the sewers to keep the noobs safe.
Bruder Malmsdoo
25-11-16, 14:32
Thumbs up william! Where is the CA?
William Antrim
25-11-16, 14:34
Changing the mechanics of the LE just because you got ganked makes me think the problem is with the victim, not the mechanic.
Its a pvp game, that means pvp at all levels not just capped players in duels. Just like in life there are assholes everywhere in nc.
If you cant look after your noobs then your clan has failed tbh. There is no issue with the LE. Why cant the noobs just "join" your clan on TS and chat to one another and get to know each other and take part in your activities without wearing your tag? What purpose or physical benefit is there to joining your clan? do you let them in the clan appt for example?
I fail to see why the LE mechanic should be changed just because you want to recruit people who dont like to be killed at low level? If players leave the game when they have been pked does the game want/need them anyway? This game is harsh on its players in one respect but thats the nature of the game - if players are gonna quit after getting killed once then they arent the kind of people the community wants and needs. I dont want this to sound unfairly harsh but this game (played without an LE in) is a cold cyberpunk world. It is not pink and fluffy. The thrill of getting the kill for one person ALWAYS has the consequence of being killed for someone else.
To remove the LE means that you "consent", for lack of a better way of putting it, to getting GR camped, having your corpse sexed and potentially losing weapons/items/boots in a quick belt at WHATEVER level you choose to remove it at. That is the game.
Please don't change it just because some noobs got killed.
Changing the mechanics of the LE just because you got ganked makes me think the problem is with the victim, not the mechanic.
Its a pvp game, that means pvp at all levels not just capped players in duels. Just like in life there are assholes everywhere in nc.
If you cant look after your noobs then your clan has failed tbh. There is no issue with the LE. Why cant the noobs just "join" your clan on TS and chat to one another and get to know each other and take part in your activities without wearing your tag? What purpose or physical benefit is there to joining your clan? do you let them in the clan appt for example?
I fail to see why the LE mechanic should be changed just because you want to recruit people who dont like to be killed at low level? If players leave the game when they have been pked does the game want/need them anyway? This game is harsh on its players in one respect but thats the nature of the game - if players are gonna quit after getting killed once then they arent the kind of people the community wants and needs. I dont want this to sound unfairly harsh but this game (played without an LE in) is a cold cyberpunk world. It is not pink and fluffy. The thrill of getting the kill for one person ALWAYS has the consequence of being killed for someone else.
To remove the LE means that you "consent", for lack of a better way of putting it, to getting GR camped, having your corpse sexed and potentially losing weapons/items/boots in a quick belt at WHATEVER level you choose to remove it at. That is the game.
Please don't change it just because some noobs got killed.
Unless you are saying that you take in all noobs that want to join you clan and grant them protection, stating "if you cannot look after your noobs" is a bit misleading.
We are not talking about clans being lazy here, we are talking about random noob friends coming together and forming a clan from the beginning. You can't expect new players to be able to protect themselves against nc griefers and if none of the established clans protects them, then they obviously quit after repetitive grieving.
However, being able to form clans to at least have that social component in place would help to keep people in the game.
You can add further restrictions, for example if you have one LEd person in the clan you cannot own an outpost. Or take it even further and say that you either need all with LE or all without. The latter would take care of the "clans being lazy" argument.
Actually LEd only clans would be an idea, it can fit from a role playing perspective as well.
Some LEed players are allready on TS and doing their thing together.
Giving them LE-Clans adds to their fun.
To solve this LE issue there needs to be two separate ruleset servers as I suggested above.
1. Non-consensual PvP-Server for the hardcore PvP people
- there is no LE at all, all runners start without LE
- rest, same as the current Titan
2. Consensual PvP-Server for the softcore PvP people
- there is no LE at all, all runners start without LE
- other players can't be attacked
- Exception to the rule: Clans who own OPs can be temporarily declared war on, they can kill each other on sight during war.
- Duels in Neofrag
Now the fun part:
This should have been done 14 years ago.
Give people choice!
scientit/Bamboo
25-11-16, 17:14
Changing the mechanics of the LE just because you got ganked makes me think the problem is with the victim, not the mechanic.
Its a pvp game, that means pvp at all levels not just capped players in duels. Just like in life there are assholes everywhere in nc.
If you cant look after your noobs then your clan has failed tbh. There is no issue with the LE. Why cant the noobs just "join" your clan on TS and chat to one another and get to know each other and take part in your activities without wearing your tag? What purpose or physical benefit is there to joining your clan? do you let them in the clan appt for example?
I fail to see why the LE mechanic should be changed just because you want to recruit people who dont like to be killed at low level? If players leave the game when they have been pked does the game want/need them anyway? This game is harsh on its players in one respect but thats the nature of the game - if players are gonna quit after getting killed once then they arent the kind of people the community wants and needs. I dont want this to sound unfairly harsh but this game (played without an LE in) is a cold cyberpunk world. It is not pink and fluffy. The thrill of getting the kill for one person ALWAYS has the consequence of being killed for someone else.
To remove the LE means that you "consent", for lack of a better way of putting it, to getting GR camped, having your corpse sexed and potentially losing weapons/items/boots in a quick belt at WHATEVER level you choose to remove it at. That is the game.
Please don't change it just because some noobs got killed.
Thumbs up for this one! Although I also agree that LE-only clans with heavy (!) restrictions may be interesting for new players.
But hell... do not open a second server!!! This will only lead to another split of the community and imbalance regarding LE'd and Non-LE'd, noobs and experienced players or fighters and traders. Worst idea ever...
Thumbs up for this one! Although I also agree that LE-only clans with heavy (!) restrictions may be interesting for new players.
But hell... do not open a second server!!! This will only lead to another split of the community and imbalance regarding LE'd and Non-LE'd, noobs and experienced players or fighters and traders. Worst idea ever...
Did you read what I have written?
Yes, now the split is problematic due to small community.
But you can wait forever and the problem persists, or do something about it.
Therefore as an interim solution, I would suggest to remove all XP/Credit restricitons from LE and make LE-Clans available.
It is still unacceptable that LE-people have to sacrifice a brain slot, but they have to live with that currently.
It is still unacceptable that LE-people have to sacrifice a brain slot, but they have to live with that currently.
Playing devils advocate for a moment...
Why do you believe it to be unacceptable? The Law Enforcer theoretically gives the strongest buff in the game...
In my NC world there is no need for a LE.
See my vision about the two ruleset servers.
https://forum.neocron-game.com/showthread.php?156799-Law-Enforcer-vs-Clan-Join&p=2236932&viewfull=1#post2236932
Therefore the LE is a penalty and not a buff.
I suggested an "interim" solution, because there are currently no alternatives available.
No choice.
2 Server? No, thanks.
Option a) play with LE, nobody can kill/gank you- you're happy as a trader or RPler
Option b) play without, there is a chance someone will kill or gank you.
I do agree that LE Player have restrictions, like a Clan-join, but the brainslot? Really?
I would suggest to let them join a clan, but not hold an outpost.
In my NC world there is no need for a LE.
See my vision about the two ruleset servers.
https://forum.neocron-game.com/showthread.php?156799-Law-Enforcer-vs-Clan-Join&p=2236932&viewfull=1#post2236932
Therefore the LE is a penalty and not a buff.
I suggested an "interim" solution, because there are currently no alternatives available.
No choice.
I'd love to see LEs disabled on Titan and a new non-PVP server added. They could even ninja each others OPs and form clans, just never attack each other. I love it. Hell, let them transfer characters there from Titan. Get the LE players away from me.
I hate LEs and think they ruin the game for the players that use them. I want to play on a server where all players, including noobs, must work together to survive, watch their backs, level in unconventional spots, etc.
To solve this LE issue there needs to be two separate ruleset servers as I suggested above.
1. Non-consensual PvP-Server for the hardcore PvP people
2. Consensual PvP-Server for the softcore PvP people
I don't feel that this is the solution at all and I couldn't disagree more.
As a player who enjoys PVP, I don't have a problem with allowing LE's to join a clan, but if this was available in game there should be heavy restrictions in place for those runners, this is a PVP game, we want to encourage players to remove the LE after all.
Managing how the LE's work would then still keep them safe at low level, noobie bashing could easily be managed within known levelling area's, but the further they move into the wastelands, the bigger risk the runner should take.
Why should the LE work in wasteland zones or war zones? Why do players have to put up with LE runners camping levelling area's and MC5, if a non LE clan or group was in an area you wanted access to, you would either kill them or force them out with threats, you can't do that to LE players.
I know I sound un-sportsman like, but this is Neocron, it's a hard life, there are factions and clans with their own interests and agenda's, people get murdered for the limited resources available, its human nature and this really shows in the wastelands.
Add area's of interest such as MB, certain zones near or around Neocron and dotted around the waste land that could be considered Neocron monitored zones, shove some storm bots in place and a wireless antenna, hey presto the LE works and it all fits within game cannon.
So this fixes, new players not able to join a clan and low level players being ganked in leveling area's that want to be part of a clan.
LE players are not safe in area's they have IMO no business being in, added risk vs reward incentive etc.
I challange the asumption this is a PvP game.
I say it is PvE game with a PvP component.
Your demands hampers my PvE experience.
Now, who is right?
My suggestions don't exclude people who like the crule harsh world, see server option "1".
I repeat myself: Punishment is no encuragement!
hudsonbeck
26-11-16, 02:36
It doesn't have to be extreme either side. True PvPer or your a Carebear. I can tell you I hate the xp malice, it's already a painful grind! Especially when you need multiple classes and specialities. Wiith the state of the majority of leveling place makes it even worse... not to mention drones. It was painstaking before; now nearly intolerable. Just getting setup to level takes time. Maybe it's just me but I can't play NC for 6+hrs a day anymore. Call me a Carebear but when I'm leveling and some dbag comes in and pk's me when I'm half their level and I'm already engaged with a mob and I have to start all over getting ready to level, pokes, gr, etc. it's not what I call enjoyable and makes me turn the game off. If I am a minority and you feel expendable fine. I guess my profile is an acceptable loss. But look up my game accounts and see my first register date and my previous play patterns. There are few that have been here longer, at least US players. Keep it 'hardcore' as you define it and you will once again have 5 people online.
I don't care about joining a clan, although it would be nice, but either take away the degree of xp malice or fix the capped dbags ganking newbs of friendly factions... just my opinion.
And yes I remember how it use to be... bounties and all. It's different when you have hundreds on the server and multiple servers. We just got a surge up to about 140 at peak and it's already dwindling... keep doing the same things and expect different results... see where it gets you. And I'm not directing this mainly to the devs.. you players need to re-evaluate as well.
There are few who care about NC more than me. I only want the best for its longevity. And I appreciate all the nst does, thank you sincerely for keeping it around.
My suggestions don't exclude people who like the crule harsh world, see server option "1".
I repeat myself: Punishment is no encuragement!
Separating an already small community is not going to make things any better, it's not about being a PVP'er or carebear at this stage, it's about finding the right balance to make hardcore players keep coming back and allow non PVP players to enjoy the game as they decide to play it. LE runners already have a big advantage over non LE players, yes there is a degree of malice, but LE runners don't drop belts, nor do they have to keep looking over their shoulders when leveling in known ganking areas.
You get a group of LE's and you can run MC5 all day without worry, big deal you lose a head implant, seeing as you won't worry about PVP then don't worry about a PPR or whichever alternative PVP chip you would use.
You can camp anywhere you like, go AFK in pepper park, you are in god mode providing there are no mobs about to kill you.
Yes you can't join a clan, does it matter ? It's not like fixing up your apartment storage is an issue from all the credits you can potentially make from selling techs without worry of being ganked while farming them.
PVE has never been one of Neocron's strong points, but in PVP we have so many different ways to kill each other, territory to fight over and belts to hack from your foes. Yes you can use the same weapons to kill mobs, but its just not the same...
More PVE content would be nice, and as I've mentioned so many times missions to give XP and rewards or leveling players would be really good, why stop at an epic run? There should be a plethora of missions with branching story lines.. but understandably with the limited resources the Dev team have this sort of thing will take time to evolve.
Of course you can go trophy hunting in the wastes if you like collecting crap, but there are much more interesting PVE games out there with much bigger rewards.
It's a 14 year old game that keeps me coming back, it's full of people I like and people I hate, it's the one game when someone kills you, you take it personally and you demand retribution in blood, no other MMO or game has made me so angry or laugh so much.
Again I repeat, separating the community is not the way forward, giving positive idea's to the Dev team is however something we should all be doing, I hope they read threads like these and take on board what we all say and make the game evolve into something it could never do under KK.
Peace out,
i would happily trade the LE game mechanic for other means to prevent unconsented kills.
what about a serious SL and fac symp drop for killing an allied or neutral (i.e. -200 SL and FS for killing a lower level ally and - 100 for a neutral)? so severe a drop it would take you weeks to work your way back into not getting shot at by copbots, faction guards and shop personnel alike, more or less all NPCs but the dedicated criminal ones at the OZ jail? at least battles zone (there are plenty of) will give no penalties for killing, right? of course, this would end all happy plaza 2 or pepper park fighting outside the lines of faction relations. but also remove the need for an LE quite a lot.
what about putting up 2 servers: both without LE, each one with and without PvP killing? What do you think: Will the servers be populated equally, or will the PVP server be deserted without all the people wanting to 'just play the game'? (we've already tried that in the past, to known results)
playing as a team or group while LE'd is not so difficult. you don't need the clan chat as you have a buddy list, and you could as well meet up in a runner apartment. so i'd vote against LE clans, but stricter penalty rules, like described above.
i would happily trade the LE game mechanic for other means to prevent unconsented kills.
what about a serious SL and fac symp drop for killing an allied or neutral (i.e. -200 SL and FS for killing a lower level ally and - 100 for a neutral)? so severe a drop it would take you weeks to work your way back into not getting shot at by copbots, faction guards and shop personnel alike, more or less all NPCs but the dedicated criminal ones at the OZ jail? at least battles zone (there are plenty of) will give no penalties for killing, right? of course, this would end all happy plaza 2 or pepper park fighting outside the lines of faction relations. but also remove the need for an LE quite a lot.
The only problem with this sort of thing is that it leaves things open to griefing, imagine you are fighting an enemy player and a 0/2 green runs in between you and dies, you are going to take a serious penalty through no fault of your own.
Or you fire an AOE weapon to try and kill a stealther but accidently kill a friendly runner in the crossfire.
Remember when you could kill Yo's NPC's in an outpost? You'd lose a shed load of SL and faction symp, so what seems like a good idea could easily turn into something that could ruin the game.
I have regular skirmishes in Pepper Park or in the wastes, sometimes against allied of neutral runners, it happens and I am aware of the risks involved, sometimes I will try and avoid the fight and get away, sometimes you just have to deal with it and kill a player, as the game is so open ended it's very difficult to police this sort of thing and unfair to be punished for self defence.
I do agree DIS, that currently a separation would be risky. (and a missing game mechanic)
Thats why I suggested the "interim" solution.
All PvE activities, you describe, LE runners allready do will not change with my suggestion.
LE-Clans can't occupy Outposts, thats an advantage only for non-LE players, no Money from OP, not max RES, CST, aso. bonus.
LE runners missing one brain slot, again still an advantage for non-LE players.
LE runners can't hack belts and take the loot, again an advantage for non-LE players.
PvE is one of Neocron strong points, leveling, part hunting, MC5, Doy-Tunnels and doing trade skills.
A lot of people seem to enjoy this.
non-LE players choose deliberately - more or less - to get enjoyment out of killing and being killed.
It is part of their fun, it is no punishment or drawback.
So why can't we remove the XP/credit malus and give LE-players clans adding to the fun of LE-Players?
hudsonbeck
26-11-16, 14:35
Can someone please tell me the current state of teaming (xp)with regards to le and non le players? Can a non le ppu buff and resurect an le?
I have no issue with LE clans, it's actually not a bad idea.
Though I must say I think it would be unfair that LE's get unrestricted access to high level / end game area's without running the risk of being killed.
And my only reason for this is stated in one of my previous posts - there is only one area MC5 to farm techs from, it's not right for LE players to camp these area's with no threat of removal or no risk of being attacked.
If the game had instances then it would not be an issue, but it's not something I can see coming any time soon.
Us old time players have a responsibility I feel not to grief low level players for the sake of it, a bit of RP grief can actually have a positive effect if it's done properly, nothing like a mugging for a reasonable sum of protection money to make a player feel that this is a ruthless cyberpunk mmo and I have done this to several players recently who found it all very entertaining.
It also makes players think twice about running into area's that are not safe without being prepared as there is a real risk if being ganked by a pk'er.
But getting back on track, I agree something needs to be adjusted to help new players out to keep them in game.
Can someone please tell me the current state of teaming (xp)with regards to le and non le players? Can a non le ppu buff and resurect an le?
A non LE ppu can buff an LE runner and res them if they die.
I have no issue with LE clans, it's actually not a bad idea.
Though I must say I think it would be unfair that LE's get unrestricted access to high level / end game area's without running the risk of being killed.
And my only reason for this is stated in one of my previous posts - there is only one area MC5 to farm techs from, it's not right for LE players to camp these area's with no threat of removal or no risk of being attacked.
If the game had instances then it would not be an issue, but it's not something I can see coming any time soon.
Us old time players have a responsibility I feel not to grief low level players for the sake of it, a bit of RP grief can actually have a positive effect if it's done properly, nothing like a mugging for a reasonable sum of protection money to make a player feel that this is a ruthless cyberpunk mmo and I have done this to several players recently who found it all very entertaining.
It also makes players think twice about running into area's that are not safe without being prepared as there is a real risk if being ganked by a pk'er.
But getting back on track, I agree something needs to be adjusted to help new players out to keep them in game.
Good point with the areas and MC5, it's quite hard to find a good balance.
Also, even if it sounds corny, I would be up for a "neighborhood grief watch" if you'd call it that.
For the sake of helping noobs and our beloved game I could even see the groups being mixed reds/non reds (since we aren't that many to be honest) and keep a NAP running while in the watch group (leveling groups can have an unspoken NAP going, so for the sake of the goal we're trying to accomplish it shouldn't be that much of a stretch on the nerves).
EDIT: Obviously it should not go so far that everyone thinks they can run around as if they were LEd with their personal body guards, but just keep it to certain areas.
In NC1 we just used to shout up when we got pked and the community dealt with it. Maybe the community went a little soft or selfish in this new version?
Some of you guys should get together and patrol the sewers to keep the noobs safe.
Seriously man, no doubt. Neocron is a harsh universe. Should be this way. Carebears are funny
This thread is funny. 125 players at peak and crying about Law enforcer. How about growing some balls and removing it? This is at core an open pvp game. I remove it at around 30 rank and dont cry when getting ganked. Get poked and level elsewhere. Neocron is huge.
https://youtu.be/CGc99BYy83Q
This 2 hour 17 minutes stream was captured using a rank 35-40 non le'd tank. In pepper park in an event.
The law enforcer argument is a dead horse. You don't experience the real Neocron until you remove it.
My clan is leveling 4 non-LE runners in OZ7 right now. Come kill us!! We've announced it on Help and no one has showed up. How hard is it to get ganked???
My clan is leveling 4 non-LE runners in OZ7 right now. Come kill us!! We've announced it on Help and no one has showed up. How hard is it to get ganked???
spread out and don't have others waiting there... Unless you are a newbie and don't like 1 v 1 with capped character vs a leveling one.
So tired of these threads. Nothing constructive comes from them and LE voices are never heard. No compromises are made, LE players are just told to deal with it and move on. They even introduced the ability to target and destroy an LE players vehicle citing fairness when farming. I see the argument but it just add's to the imbalance instead of making things fair.
How anyone can state this is a PvP game is bizarre. All those shiny weapons and armour you love, come from PvE. CS:GO is PvP. Battlefield is PvP. NC is not, but you still can.
I've tried PvP, I don't enjoy and don't see the point of it. I tried it in NC1 when it was rampant, but it just doesn't do it for me. The rest of the game, of which there is a great deal, I do enjoy. But just because I don't enjoy it doesn't mean I want to nerf the experience for others by forcing a damn LE into their heads.
Give us clans, maybe even our own zone to farm techs for some passive items (trade skill etc), give us encouragement to play the game.
I know this'll all fall on deaf ears, it always does. After so very many of these threads and many, many more posts, I no longer have any faith or belief that it will change. We'll just be looked down upon and ridiculed as always. Consider this a final, shot in the dark, plea for change.
We just leveled during peak hours 4-5 of us without LEs at OZ7. I announced our location on here, on help 3x, and on Discord. No one showed up to kill us! We're around rank /30 now and still haven't died a single time. What a joke.
LEs aren't even slightly necessary. Take them out and play the real game. We're trying to make a point here.
Come kill us? Please!?? Where are the gankers!?
Edit: taking a break now for dinner, killed myself with a barrel
We just leveled during peak hours 4-5 of us without LEs at OZ7. I announced our location on here, on help 3x, and on Discord. No one showed up to kill us! We're around rank /30 now and still haven't died a single time. What a joke.
LEs aren't even slightly necessary. Take them out and play the real game. We're trying to make a point here.
Come kill us? Please!?? Where are the gankers!?
Edit: taking a break now for dinner, killed myself with a barrel
Before we went there, I took out my LE in pepper park and stood in-front of non le's while doing it at 0/2 ... didn't get ganked.
At level 12 I chased a level 40 around the zone with a shitty flame thrower, didn't get ganked.
Ran around pepper park during Jones missions, used OZ ind A and those area's, ran through PP1 passed red players... not getting ganked.
Went AFK in OZ 6 to type this post, got ganked :)
So motto is, don't do stupid stuff and you are less likely to die.
What happened if LE would be patched out? And no SI, no Belt drop, and Imp drop out till */30 ?
And -33 SL if you kill a friendly faction?
And -11 if you kill a neutral (its like no attack pact) faction?
And +22 if you kill an enemy faction?
****To focus more on the factions than on runners?*****
At the moment factions are not that important, only for epic rewards. Most dont care about the faction and history if they like to kos all in noob areas they will do. Like in a ego shooter. I suggest more -SL for friendly and some -SL for neutral kills.
Or what happened if there is no neutral faction? Only friendly and enemy? Neutral is like free kill.
Green and Red Color only would be nice.
Factions makes no sense. Who cares? I dont like :/
What happened if LE would be patched out? And no SI, no Belt drop, and Imp drop out till */30 ?
And -33 SL if you kill a friendly faction?
And -11 if you kill a neutral (its like no attack pact) faction?
And +22 if you kill an enemy faction?
****To focus more on the factions than on runners?*****
At the moment factions are not that important, only for epic rewards. Most dont care about the faction and history if they like to kos all in noob areas they will do. Like in a ego shooter. I suggest more -SL for friendly and some -SL for neutral kills.
Or what happened if there is no neutral faction? Only friendly and enemy? Neutral is like free kill.
Green and Red Color only would be nice.
Factions makes no sense. Who cares? I dont like :/
SL and symp loss for killing friendly is already very high.
Also, what if an ally faction attacks you? Self defense can mean losing a lot of SL/symp currently and it would be even worse with what you just suggested.
hudsonbeck
28-11-16, 03:43
I hear ya Jodo. I also agree with you.
I have thought about it more and see Triv's point about it being a bonus and can accept the xp malice equaling out. I guess I am more ok with getting less xp on my LE runner. Can anyone tell me the % out of curiosity?
Jodo don't get discouraged, there are many in agreement. It's just a shame the 'hardcore' 'bad asses' are and have always been the loudest voice. There is always room for compromise. People play NC for many reasons.
hudsonbeck
28-11-16, 03:57
SL and symp loss for killing friendly is already very high.
Also, what if an ally faction attacks you? Self defense can mean losing a lot of SL/symp currently and it would be even worse with what you just suggested.
Maybe I'll take a lesson from REVKaH and post over and over in the span of a few minutes.
To my point Drake6k, what happened before? All the 'hardcore' badasses' (nonCarebares) went around killing every nonLE and ended up with way negative SL and FS and quit. Then everyone complained it was too hard to regain SL (wait, isn't that carebearish... it's a harsh world remember - deal with the consequences right?) so they couldn't or wouldn't come back. What happened? SL regain and missions were changed to help these 'hardcore' 'badasses'. Now the can come back and do a few missions and AFK in their apt to regain SL. 'Hardcore' 'badasses' are so funny.
All the LE people are asking for is a little compromise. Who knows how complicated it is to allow joining clans... or just LE clans... whatever. Is there any intellectual argument against? That's a serious question.
I'm sure there are other things that would be nice but just an open, non combative, intelligent dialogue would be a great start.
William Antrim
28-11-16, 14:54
Nobody has answered my question yet though, you have a million different programs (voip/skype/discord) to keep a clan/community together outside the game but for some reason the thread starter thinks LE players need to be in a clan. Why is that? What benefit is there that clans give that the LE guy needs it?
The rest of you guys have launched into a huge discussion surrounding the pvp angle and I agree with points on both sides but the problem you have is this - the LE abusers down the years have ruined many people's views on the LE chip. Using it in ways it was never intended (dungeon blocking, corpse camping in a vehicle, MC5 blocking etc etc) gives people a sour taste when you see those two initials.
LE players already get complete invulnerability to go about the game, this game needs people fighting just as it needs people tradeskilling. It needs combat at its core to be Neocron. If you guys turn it into a big mIRC cyberpunk chatroom with 5 slot "weapons" that nobody uses then it will stagnate and die. The fact that it is OWPVP (which is a niche market) and the fact that it is NOW easy to cap a char and use ANY gun in the game to pvp with has I think perhaps escaped some of you.
The balancing team did not put 3+ years of their lives into this game to balance the PVP just so that you bunch of carebears could stand around plaza 1 telling each other how wonderful you are and how that Twilight Guardian inquisition suit really matches your eye liner. They balanced the guns so you could pull out a TS assault rifle and blow that fuckers head off while you take his outpost, destroy his clan's credibility and sex his fucking corpse.
Jesus christ guys, stop being so fucking carebear and pick up a weapon and fight back if you get pked :). When i started playing if we got pked we levelled up like a bastard to fight that guy back. We used to write names on a notepad for fucks sake so we had a hitlist to get em back one day.
Reputations were made and lost on the streets of Pepper Park, now it seems like reputations are washed away from a flood of tears.
This game has pvp at its heart. If you dont like that and its not your thing then fair play, you have a working system that does what you need it to do and comes with consequences, it is up to you whether or not you choose to accept those consequences but please dont turn the game into a chat room with 100 LE players stroking each others egos. You will ruin NC with that.
I dont like LE too. But i like the idea to take out this after dead penalty "SI+drop out imps" for low lvl noobs, instead LE.
No penalty to rank */30 after dead. And all are happy
@William
My question was why it issnt possible?
Everybody play NC like they want, true?
Play NC like a Shooter, ignore Faction standings? No problem
Play NC with mates together in a clan, do PVE together. but he/she dont like be ganked and dont like/cannot teamspeak, this is a problem?
Change all the time chat channel, write a message double? Most time i cannot use teamspeak too when it get late...
We just leveled during peak hours 4-5 of us without LEs at OZ7. I announced our location on here, on help 3x, and on Discord. No one showed up to kill us! We're around rank /30 now and still haven't died a single time. What a joke.
LEs aren't even slightly necessary. Take them out and play the real game. We're trying to make a point here.
Come kill us? Please!?? Where are the gankers!?
Edit: taking a break now for dinner, killed myself with a barrel
The current community is a little soft if I knew how to get to oz7 I'd come along to grief some noobs. Got bored of looking for it
Jodo don't get discouraged, there are many in agreement. It's just a shame the 'hardcore' 'bad asses' are and have always been the loudest voice. There is always room for compromise. People play NC for many reasons.
Couple of replies later and we're getting called carebears again. No compromise, no respect.
Why do people have a problem with an LE clan? It wouldn't even affect other players. All sorts of creative arguments to make life difficult and less enjoyable for LE players from people who flat out hate the LE and don't want to use it. We want to use it and we'd love to have a clan also. Why? A greater sense of belonging, an act of unity and a statement of intent. Also, it'd make the game more fun for us.
Odimara Orca
28-11-16, 18:44
I think the XP punishment can be removed.
But i suggest a 50% malus on earned credits, there should be a trade off somewhere.
William Antrim
28-11-16, 19:20
If you guys can all find a way to stop the le being abused I'm war zones - like disabling it - and stop the other ways it can be abused then I'd say OK have le'd clans.
My reason for posting this is not to flame those who wear the le but to discourage that behaviour.
If you guys can all find a way to stop the le being abused I'm war zones - like disabling it - and stop the other ways it can be abused then I'd say OK have le'd clans.
My reason for posting this is not to flame those who wear the le but to discourage that behaviour.
This is the problem, LE players will abuse their advantage, I don't blame them... but us players who enjoy to play the game as it was intended suffer in the long run.
Another option to reduce the chance of being ganked by allies is to make having high Faction Symp and Soul Light a big advantage.
High Soul Light players could enjoy free GenReps within Neocron and the Outzones, while high faction sympathy could offer heavy discounts within faction HQ shops and even free GR's to faction controlled outposts.
There are all sorts of benefits that could be added to game that would encourage allied players to stick together.
Yes there will always be a allied player who ganks or attacks you, but that's something you learn to accept.
This does all not work, as you can have mulitple chars and accounts to support the "evil" chars.
Your char name is known? All too bad SL?
No problem get the equipment and level a new one.
The punishmet system means nothing.
Are victims of ganking not making a mountain out of a mole hill here?
I mean how often do you honestly get ganked while levelling a low level character? And if out hunting warbies or fire mobs, if you choose your zones well then its unlikely you will see another runner for hours on end.
There will always be gankers at MB as there will always be new players leveing there, they go there because people tell them to, the same with El Faraid, but there are plenty of other area's with good spawns that gankers are unlikely to venture to, they go to MB because it is easy to do so.
Yes there other places that are less accessible than MB, but one should consider the amount of times he/she is ganked vs a slower spawn rate/lack of city com terminal and the community should give new players places to go other than MB, let them know MB is dangerous, but these other places are not as good for XP but are considered safer.
Perhaps the dev team can place citycom terminals throughout the outzone sectors and the wastes where there are launcher or equivalent mutant spawns.
Certainly increasing the spawn rates in these "other" areas where required would also encourage players to venture there.
hudsonbeck
29-11-16, 03:09
I think there are a couple discussions going on here Dis. One side, me included keep in the le in because when I'm low level I don't want to be ganked by a guy twice my level while I'm leveling and engaged with a mob. I don't have the time to spend getting pokes and traveling back to leveling areas. My play time is limited more than it was 15 years ago. I originally questioned the malice to xp saying it wasn't just. I changed my mind because there were good points and I see the reasoning now. I'm sure there are others with this opinion but I'm only speaking for myself.
There are others that want to be able to have the clan aspect with having an LE in... I have yet to see an intelligent reason why people oppose this ability.
I'm sure the technical/code aspect would be huge but that's not what we're are discussing.
I suppose the mind-set for LE removal was to get players more involved in PVP, if you are in a clan and you are levelling, then its likely you will fight an opposing clan or faction member to break up the monotony of levelling. That's how it always was in NC1 for me, but I enjoy that sort of thing.
Things have changed dramatically since early NC1, there are not the same volumes of players competing with each other and higher level players who are bored will pick on non LE's, I know that's always been the case, but there were larger clans policing area's for their own clan mates and they tended to leave lower level non LE's alone, even of enemy factions. Or the clans tended to know other spots that were seldom visited by ganking squads.
As I mentioned in a previous post, I have no issue with an LE clan, or for LE players to join non LE clans... however there should be restrictions on access to end game hunting spots, I.E the ability to be attacked and killed. I think those restrictions are just and would keep things balanced and fair for all players.
NST need to make the game accessible to everyone, I do feel that the PVP crowd should ease their stance some-what, LE's deserve to be in a clan if they choose, XP and money malice are in place so removing the chip has a positive effect as well as giving an extra brain slot.
But, LE players need to understand that if they choose to enter an end game levelling area/warzone they should be just as vulnerable to attack as everyone else, that way it keeps zones free from LE clans who would abuse their status and the PVP players don't feel backed into a corner.
For me personally, I like the game how it is... but if change is what is needed to keep the game populated then so be it.
William Antrim
29-11-16, 14:54
You cant put people into categories, sides or pigeon holes here at all. You are talking about a game mechanic which is working as intended but is subject to some horrific abuse at times. It is a divisive issue, make no mistake about that, but trying to coral people into a specific group is not the way to foster good discussion.
To be honest, I have never been a huge fan of how the LE chip is implemented and works. But I still keep it on most of my characters.
Why?
My main reason is that I'm more into the PvE and exploration aspects of the game and less into the faction wars and hardcore PvP.
Although it probably would be fun learning to PvP now and then for a change, I enjoy being able to hunt and explore in peace and quiet without having to look out for, or even being driven away by some hardcore PvP asshat who has no self control towards players who are not experienced and/or high level enough to hold their own ground. I'm not calling everyone asshats, but it only takes ONE to ruin the game for a non-PvP'er, and not even allies or neutrals will be spared at times because the consequence is really a joke. At the same time consequences for the victim are almost ridiculously harsh - credit loss to GR back to life, huge SI time sink, item lost in belt drop, implants popped, wearing on them and requiring pokes.
What I would wish for is easing of the death penalties when killed by allied or neutral runner. No credit loss for GR back to life, no belt drop, no implants popped if killed by allied or neutral. These things should only happen when killed by hostile runner. Perhaps even fine runners killing allies or neutrals in credits?
In addition, I would like to have a faction not hostile to any of the others, perhaps Diamond Real Estate. I think that without being unfaithful to the Neocron lore, DRE could be profit seeking real estate brokers who does not care who they deal with, as long as they make profits. Or, perhaps even better, the possibility to actually be factionless and neutral to everyone.
As for the LE chip, starter chars could still have one. But the City Administration does not want their LE chipped runners to become too intelligent nor skilled fighters. It could have no malus/penalty until */30 or whatever appropriate rank, but kick in a 100% xp penalty after that. And it would be cool if the Jones questline eventually lead to the runner finding out about the LE chip and given a "Matrix-style" choice to remove it or leave it in, facing the malus and consequences.
In my opinion, all of this could be a cool compromise and would turn the LE chip into a starter help and part of the storyline instead of half the population still keeping it at high levels.
@Noldus :)
This would be a nice concept with the LE !
I hope they will notice it......
And with the SL they could do like this:
Within NC City Area, except Outzone, if you kill someone u loose massive SL and Copbots will shot (NCPD have Eye on you)...
Outside city if you kill neutral u loose some Soullight too. Both factions are not in war. But everything red is a free kill.
No need of LE after /30 any more. Tradeskillers, PVE and RPG players can visit Pepperpark/Viarosso too and enjoy. If someone get killed in this area he got satisfaction, the other one will get punishment from -SL and Copbots.
PP fights would be high risk, but instead no LE after /30.
Pepper Park should never be safe, it's run by Tsunami and Black Dragon, players know the risk of coming here. Copbots dare not venture there.
Certain districts are supposed to be dangerous, this is one of them. Protect players in major leveling areas fine, but don't spoil this aspect of the game.
Most fights are in pepperpark. Those who dont like pvp would never come to Pepperpark, Viarosso and Plaza 2-4, enjoy, drink a beer, go afk little, without LE
And i dont like LE and savezones! There was a time without Savezones
But maybe it is all good like it is...
hudsonbeck
08-12-16, 18:03
Does anyone know the actual percent decrease in XP gain and credits reduction when a runner has a LE in?
Thanks!
It raises the higher your rank is. Last time i checked on 45 rank character it was -20% xp and money both, so scales higher on higher rank. Not sure of the cap.
I was thinking, why not change the Soullight system into something of a bounty-system instead?
What if, a bounty was placed on your head for every unlawful kill, ie your SL goes down. This bounty is paid to whoever lands the killing blow on you and you are sent to prison to serve your sentence, which can be reduced or even lifted if you pay a fine (of at least the same amount as the reward to avoid exploiting). Time to serve could be calculated from your level so that it would amount to roughly the time spent earning the same amount of money by legal means. And serving could continue while offline so as not to punish other characters. Just a thought. :)
Yea not sure on a jail term kinda thing, player killing has always been a threat, the concept of having bad guy/good guy scenarios has always been a case, unfortunately Neocron is kinda like a Premier League you have a top 5 or 6 teams, if your not in those 5 or 6 teams it's very hard to reach any decen goal, the only real chance anybody has is finding or creating clans of players that will stick it out no matter what until they join the elite, and rinse and repeat. Unfortunately with an overall small player base that's unlikely.
Vash th3 Flash
02-01-17, 22:28
It's pretty steep as you level up. At about */45 it's 25% for xp and 22% for nc.
I used to poke in p1 and did informal polls. Even at the heyday of NC1, most people that needed pokes were killed by warbots or other high level mobs. They really don't advertise it as much as players that got ganked.
The big problem with gankers is how they always seem to pop up at the worst possible time and in the most popular zones. I still know a bunch of good leveling areas that are usually pretty quiet and never saw pk'ers. The biggest issue I ran into was running into one on the way to those zones. Back in the day, you would see high level clan players guarding or avenging ganked players. There are not enough players now for that kind of protection.
I really think that the malus needs to be removed. It was removed before due to excessive pk'ing, and I don't see any reason to keep it right now.
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