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Bragi
21-12-14, 03:19
Drugs may seem like a side aspect of NC, but as many of you are aware, they currently have a sizable impact on end-game PvP.
Drugs are very different compared to NC1/2 and with everything else, they need to be looked at from an outside perspective.

Currently drugs are generally entirely beneficial aside from the flash effects. In a similar vein as the Tier 3 v Rare.MC5 implant thread, here's some options:


Drugs stay as they are.

Drugs remain a significant bonus over a lack of drugs.

Drugs have equal or near-equal negatives to their bonuses.

(Personal preference) Drugs modify a character/setup in a given direction, but overall benefit is minimal/zero aside from the inconvenience of flash effects (which is of course subjective/a matter of discussion). Similar to NC1 drug effects. Eg. Redflash increases Dexterity and Agility, but reduces Body Health.

Drugs stay as they are, but duration is significantly reduced.

Ignoring the removal of flash after death, drugs provide a significant bonus, but last for much less time (1 min tops).

Drugs do something else.

necrocon
21-12-14, 09:57
I would not like them to be a major increase, that or perhaps at least not stack, as I think.. they do. I haven't used them since I was back. I just believe implants should be the bigger, more badass increase. I am probably mostly alone here. These other stoner pricks, probably want all of the drugs to be +1 billion, and a dolphin. lol

Ascension
21-12-14, 14:22
I believe drugs should offer a minor bonus for a limited time, you shouldn't have to rely on them for a finished setup. I also believe that if running the kill self command the drug flash should remain, however if you're killed by a 3rd party and resurrected then the flash should be gone.

I See Blue
21-12-14, 16:00
I also believe that if running the kill self command the drug flash should remain, however if you're killed by a 3rd party and resurrected then the flash should be gone.

That would be punishment for survival and skill in my view. Why should surviving the fight carry a penalty? And on a sidenote, it doesn´t make any sense that one type of death should clear a problem and another type of death should not. If you are to have persistent through death-penalties for use, the boost they give should be pretty significant.

I think the drugs aren´t too far off how they should be at the moment, they offer a bonus (thought he positives are a little too good considering you can stack them), yet it is completely viable to play without them. I could understand limiting the number of drugs you are able to take at one time, or even making it harmful taking above a certain number of drugs (call it overdose or something) so that the negative effects increase with the number of drugs you take over a certain number.

necrocon
21-12-14, 17:34
I believe drugs should offer a minor bonus for a limited time, you shouldn't have to rely on them for a finished setup. I also believe that if running the kill self command the drug flash should remain, however if you're killed by a 3rd party and resurrected then the flash should be gone.

So having a PPU friend would be all it takes to avoid drug flash? Have friend kill me quick, and then res me.. and BAM! That seems pretty easy to avoid.

Drachenpaladin
21-12-14, 18:01
I'd like to see that meta game with set_killself gone. That should not be part of the regular gameplay for setups with drugs. Its shouldn't be a necessity for any gameplay...

Dropout
22-12-14, 00:30
If drugs were to be nerfed (by a lot as in: •Drugs have equal or near-equal negatives to their bonuses.), drugflashes would have to be removed tbh.

Anyways, I vote for •Drugs stay as they are.
Well or maybe not exactly as they are. But a rather big boost in stats.

I know that a drugflash can be removed quite easily with kill_self - Sometimes you just really do not want to die...
Like in opfights that takes a while. Or when you are the last non-PPU alive.. It REALLY isnt possible to get a rez in that scenario - and it has happened to me more than a few times..



EDIT: A limit for how many drugs you can take would probably be a good idea.. Kinda like with nanites.

Torg
22-12-14, 13:54
Drugs have equal or near-equal negatives to their bonuses.

(Personal preference) Drugs modify a character/setup in a given direction, but overall benefit is minimal/zero aside from the inconvenience of flash effects (which is of course subjective/a matter of discussion). Similar to NC1 drug effects. Eg. Redflash increases Dexterity and Agility, but reduces Body Health.

atm drugs are needed for some setups, esp. on PE. but there is nearly no downside of using them, apart from the drugflash - where there is a workaround ready at hand.

we need to bring in a malus to drug use, like in Bragi's personal pref point. i support this version.

Drachenpaladin
22-12-14, 15:48
we need to bring in a malus to drug use, like in Bragi's personal pref point. i support this version.

With or without that workaround still part of the formula?

Torg
22-12-14, 16:55
With or without that workaround still part of the formula?the "workaround" (Kill_self or get killed and rezzed after to continue playing/fighting without drugflash effects) should be removed or altered by adding synaptic impairment to a rezzed player, just like after using a Genrep, since the drugflash is gone after death and GR-use, too.

Tino
23-12-14, 18:55
Lower the time duration of drugs...if you take one drug it should last 10 mins...if you take 2 drugs the effects should have a shorter time period...in my experience if you take more than one drug you get fucked up faster =) Just like in life there should be negative and positive consequences for taking performance enhancing drugs....specially more than 1

Drachenpaladin
23-12-14, 19:11
Lower the time duration of drugs...if you take one drug it should last 10 mins...if you take 2 drugs the effects should have a shorter time period...in my experience if you take more than one drug you get fucked up faster =) Just like in life there should be negative and positive consequences for taking performance enhancing drugs....specially more than 1

I think this could work.

Divide
24-12-14, 17:38
I'd like to see that meta game with set_killself gone. That should not be part of the regular gameplay for setups with drugs. Its shouldn't be a necessity for any gameplay...

Doth my eyes deceive me?


Drugs in NC1 were there for the shameless and those who just didn't understand player setup and needed help... Or perhaps a fightnight you just couldn't stand to lose.
NC1 players didn't drug because it wasn't necessary.

2.2 is a retardo drug fest. Players don't consider their char fight-ready unless they have 249 stacks of drugs in the gogo. It's a crutch that many people can't even comprehend operating without.

I'd say of all of the changes that took place while I was on hiatus, drugs are by far the worst. I wouldn't bat an eye if they all disappeared, but somehow I don't think the players who believe drugs=good gameplay will agree.
Or the people who have one, two, three, four accounts full of characters who all have setups based upon drugs. I love players who have to take drugs to even use their primary weapon. Great setup guys.

Dropout
25-12-14, 21:36
Or the people who have one, two, three, four accounts full of characters who all have setups based upon drugs. I love players who have to take drugs to even use their primary weapon. Great setup guys.

Hehe at one point (before the speedcap was introduced) I had a Dev setup that needed Xbeast for STR to use Dev and Redflash to activate an implant.. :p

I did cap Dev aim with it, and could outrun everyone but tanks (that didnt have a weapon in their hands) WITH my Dev out..

necrocon
26-12-14, 05:16
Doth my eyes deceive me?


Drugs in NC1 were there for the shameless and those who just didn't understand player setup and needed help... Or perhaps a fightnight you just couldn't stand to lose.
NC1 players didn't drug because it wasn't necessary.

2.2 is a retardo drug fest. Players don't consider their char fight-ready unless they have 249 stacks of drugs in the gogo. It's a crutch that many people can't even comprehend operating without.

I'd say of all of the changes that took place while I was on hiatus, drugs are by far the worst. I wouldn't bat an eye if they all disappeared, but somehow I don't think the players who believe drugs=good gameplay will agree.
Or the people who have one, two, three, four accounts full of characters who all have setups based upon drugs. I love players who have to take drugs to even use their primary weapon. Great setup guys.

Pretty much everything he said seems spot on.

´Clayton
30-12-14, 18:01
If drugs were to be nerfed (by a lot as in: •Drugs have equal or near-equal negatives to their bonuses.), drugflashes would have to be removed tbh.

Anyways, I vote for •Drugs stay as they are.
Well or maybe not exactly as they are. But a rather big boost in stats.

I know that a drugflash can be removed quite easily with kill_self - Sometimes you just really do not want to die...
Like in opfights that takes a while. Or when you are the last non-PPU alive.. It REALLY isnt possible to get a rez in that scenario - and it has happened to me more than a few times..



EDIT: A limit for how many drugs you can take would probably be a good idea.. Kinda like with nanites.

I agreewith dropout!
In my opinion drugs are fine the way they are now. The only issue I have is said workaround to avoid the negatives consequences of using drugs. Almost everyone has a PPU in a nearby safezone (e.g. PP1) for buffs and rezz to circumvent the drugflash. This is extremly lame and a problem in itself.

I dont want drugs to become obsolete, because they are one of neocrons very few cashsinks!
Additionaly BD would suffer from this.

So I vote for •Drugs stay as they are.

Provided the issue of circumventing the drugflash is fixed and maybe this idea "EDIT: A limit for how many drugs you can take would probably be a good idea.. Kinda like with nanites." is implemented.

In my mind this seems like a good and simple solution!

5150
01-01-15, 12:25
I suspect I'm in a minority here but I'll throw this out anyway on the subject of Drugs.

Any chances LOMs could go back to the way they used to be? (no XP loss), if this is too unpopular perhaps the behaviour could be liked to rank (like implanting an LE) or the presence of the LE chip

r3yka
17-01-15, 04:20
drugs offer more variety to set ups so I vote for keep them as they are or similar.

Obviously it's possible to make a setup that's totally drug free, but that inevitably means that set ups will be more similar. Some of the craziest set ups I've seen wouldn't be possible without drugs, like the PE setup Mace showed me. it also makes for some interesting turns in battles when certain teams start drug flashing before others etc, just adds another element to the game really nothing wrong with that in my eyes.

drug flash is a pretty annoying penalty, even though you can die and get rezzed, that does take time too. must be so nice to play your setups you're used to and not have to worry about that, sheez if you could get your whole clan to not take drugs? and not have to put up with the drug rezzes after winning a fight? that team would be so efficient... Would already be taking layer one at the next OP before the losing team could even get poked so.. pros to taking drugs, pros to not taking drugs.

I guess it's fairly easy to conclude then, that I myself am a shameless drug whore

‡ Stormlord ‡
17-01-15, 15:03
I would suggest to even remove the drugs the medicare NPC is selling and make them Black Dragon FSM only. This faction is supposed to be a drugs, weapons, s*x´n rock´n roll faction and its faction members would have a greater meaning to deal drugs with others... But since the medicare dude has light drugs too there is no drug dealing at all...

"sshhh.... you look weak... want some drugs? ... "
"... no thanks.. and if I will take some I get it from the medicare guy, so thanks.."

godamnit....

Divide
17-01-15, 18:40
Drugs don't support spec variety, they create a vacuum where your setup doesn't use drugs but 99% of other PVPers do. That's not variety, that is a new requirement to compete.

Bottom line is I can right-click->use 8 drugs right now and run faster, jump higher, carry more, aim better, shoot harder, penis larger.
Other than 'because it's not the playstyle I appreciate' what else is there for people who don't drug?

They are the new baseline, and that is exactly the opposite of variety. If they don't change, they will continue to be the new baseline and I will continue to have to hear from every serious competitor out there:

"You need to drug to compete."


What is this, Major League Baseball?


@Gonzo
How many more skillpoints would the the drugged out team have over the drug free? Is that a realistic fight given equal skill?

StevenJ
18-01-15, 03:19
They are the new baseline
I see it this way too. As they stand, drugs create a new baseline, one which adds little to the metagame of NC, other than downtime and pissing around with inventory bollocks.

Bruder Malmsdoo
18-01-15, 13:18
The Drugflash ist annoying. Penalty should be SI and drugs could also be more expensive and harder to recycle

Tino
18-01-15, 17:07
Lower the time duration of drugs...if you take one drug it should last 10 mins...if you take 2 drugs the effects should have a shorter time period...in my experience if you take more than one drug you get fucked up faster =) Just like in life there should be negative and positive consequences for taking performance enhancing drugs....specially more than 1

OFT
20-01-15, 05:09
Drugs have equal or near-equal negatives to their bonuses.

Tobson
13-02-15, 18:55
using drugs= xp lost.
you have to do some cave runs or anything time by time.

Ivan Eres
16-02-15, 11:05
Drugs don't support spec variety, they create a vacuum where your setup doesn't use drugs but 99% of other PVPers do. That's not variety, that is a new requirement to compete.

/signed

r3yka
18-02-15, 20:35
I hear your point divide, but then can we say that mc5's and rare weapons are a baseline, get rid of them, just have pure stats? I think the way they are being used right now sure they are a baseline but I don't think that warrants getting rid of them.. altering them slightly maybe. I think drugs should be harder to access, yes and to follow on from this


using drugs= xp lost.
you have to do some cave runs or anything time by time.

maybe even have specific mob drops that you use to craft/recycle them from, or have certain clan quests or tie it in more with the BD faction but ultimately make it something you work for, and maybe even pretty hard at that, as a clan. If you want to PVP harder than the next clan then you better get out into the wastelands and work for it. im starting to sound like a broken record here with the constant 'create more grind/team activities' but when is it that you find yourself gaming the most ferciously in NC? in my exp its pvp or leveling/optimizing ur char, and pvp you cannot do all the time, PVE however. there needs to be a wider variety of things to do. even if its just things like having drug material drops, imp drops or weap drops ,maybe even some in the same light as the filter heart 2 of old, such that the persistent mob grinder/tech hunter stands the chance of receiving an ultra rare item, therefore giving incentive to those who do so. If the filter heart 2 were a big rarity drop. how many tanks you think you'd see trying to get out and farm one? more than there are farming techs now at least. I think we need some ultra rare hard to access items, e.g custom PA's,drugs.special imps,bones whatever u can think of..maybe even gun mods..blue lazer pointers etc bla bla Gonzo mind spill again

Divide
21-02-15, 21:15
Drugs are cheap and fleeting. They have no requirement for use. They do not degrade over time or require significant effort to obtain. They are not core items. They are fluff. Fluff should be optional. Fluff should not require 10 minutes of drug rezzing after an opfight.

I wonder if drugs could have risks? Get some bad shit or mix the wrong cocktail or OD and... Who knows how long until your heart explodes or your lungs collapse? If there was a random damning factor (instadeath?/stam reduction/hp reduction/healing reduction/stat reduction) in addition to the already known and predictable duration and drug flash management requirement, that could do some interesting things. Some of the effects could be instant or a very quick onset after taking a bad combo or whatever. Other effects could be tied to avoidable events such as stamina reaching 0 or taking damage or running for too long.

Maybe there should be a tranquilizer dart mod for the nailgun that defeats drug effects but doesn't trigger drugflash?

Snake EYE
05-05-15, 09:52
Drugs in NC1 were there for the shameless and those who just didn't understand player setup and needed help... Or perhaps a fightnight you just couldn't stand to lose.
NC1 players didn't drug because it wasn't necessary.

2.2 is a retardo drug fest. Players don't consider their char fight-ready unless they have 249 stacks of drugs in the gogo. It's a crutch that many people can't even comprehend operating without.

I'd say of all of the changes that took place while I was on hiatus, drugs are by far the worst. I wouldn't bat an eye if they all disappeared, but somehow I don't think the players who believe drugs=good gameplay will agree.
Or the people who have one, two, three, four accounts full of characters who all have setups based upon drugs. I love players who have to take drugs to even use their primary weapon. Great setup guys.




Drugs don't support spec variety, they create a vacuum where your setup doesn't use drugs but 99% of other PVPers do. That's not variety, that is a new requirement to compete.

Bottom line is I can right-click->use 8 drugs right now and run faster, jump higher, carry more, aim better, shoot harder, penis larger.
Other than 'because it's not the playstyle I appreciate' what else is there for people who don't drug?

/signed

Zoltan
05-05-15, 14:54
TL;DR - This means I'll read the rest next time.

A short question from my side - Do you want to keep the current "drug hell" or do you want the NC1 version? I personally prefer a drugfree gameplay ;p Drugs shouldn't be a need to play a character it should act like a powerup with malusses ofc. imho

ulx
05-05-15, 16:20
As someone who didnt see the need to use Drugs back in NC1 i say go back to that...

DomeOfTerror
15-05-15, 02:03
Having to drug for certain situations, like equipping an armor that then provides enough
stats to stay equipped, is fine.

But I don't like the idea of having to drug in order to be competitive and if it is a
requirement to be competitive then the penalties for using those necessary drugs are too
high.

If drugs remain necessary make it so you can stay drugged for much longer and suffer the
flash after you've had time for a full Op fight or two.

Hackebeil
15-05-15, 11:35
Drugs are fine!

I consider my self as a drug user since the very beginning.
Drugs are one of the coolest things in Neocron ever.
If you didnt get this by now, you probably never have seen yellow pa tanks and purple pa ppus fighting...
I can remember when i was leveling as a noob back in NC1, that i was using drugs to use higher tl weapons to boost the cr etc.
Drugs are not gamebreaking. Sure they give you a light benefit for pvp but.. they cost alot if you consider to use them constantly.
Ofc this is depending on how often you fight.
However, what i consider to be most important is that drugs giving more dynamics to the game itself. You can build extreme setups depending on drugs.

Just to give you and brief idea why drugs are awesome:
There was a time in NC1 - beginning NC2 where nearly no spies attended to OP-fights.
At this time not many people considered to use drugs for their normal fighting setups.
I did. I had so much fun doing opfights as a spy where everyone said: "A spy? Not useful.. etc."
Even my own Teammates where sceptical...
However, i am an supporter of variety and drugs are important for exotic builds and variety.
For people that are complaining: that they have to use drugs in fights, because if they dont, they have an disadvantage..
thats not the full story!
You dont win fights because you use drugs... or lose because you didnt.
All people who talk this nonesense, 13 years and you still dont "know how" to OP-fight? :angel:
There are many fights where i dont use drugs, because i dont need them.

In my opinion it would be great to keep drugs ingame.

On the other side i can see that it might be a good step into competative gameplay (balancing everyone/everything). Making everyone even.. thats not Neocron...
I dont want a mirror match. I dont want people to have a similar setup.

Jack Slater
21-05-15, 14:41
Personally I don't like drug-setups but pills like Paratemol X-Forte give you the feeling that you have a disadvantage if you don't use them. I don't care if PEs take pills to use a certain weapon though.
In my opinion pvp-stats like ATL, AGI, WPL and HLT should be "implant-only".


maybe even have specific mob drops that you use to craft/recycle them from, or have certain clan quests or tie it in more with the BD faction but ultimately make it something you work for, and maybe even pretty hard at that, as a clan. If you want to PVP harder than the next clan then you better get out into the wastelands and work for it. im starting to sound like a broken record here with the constant 'create more grind/team activities' but when is it that you find yourself gaming the most ferciously in NC? in my exp its pvp or leveling/optimizing ur char, and pvp you cannot do all the time, PVE however.

This! Graves + Swamp Caves are a nice spot for this. I like grinding but rare parts is too boring and I don't really need them.

Hackebeil
21-05-15, 22:37
Personally I don't like drug-setups but pills like Paratemol X-Forte give you the feeling that you have a disadvantage if you don't use them. I don't care if PEs take pills to use a certain weapon though.
In my opinion pvp-stats like ATL, AGI, WPL and HLT should be "implant-only".



This! Graves + Swamp Caves are a nice spot for this. I like grinding but rare parts is too boring and I don't really need them.

Please ! NO !
Don´t mix PVP and PVE.... I don´t want to farm stuff for PVP... especially not in Neocron..
I just want to log in and have fun pvping. I still have to farm credits for the drugs...
And this is far more than you expect.
The whole Clan Infected spent over 50 millions on drugs, medpacks and stamina boosters so far.
Just to give you an idea that there is something you have to do...

Make ATL, AGL, WPL and HLT implant only ?
Hell no! There are moments when i need to boost this kind of attributes...
And if those stats are implants only the character setup will suffer from it.
Those are the strongest pvp attributes and ofc everyone will max them... That means everyone will take the same implants... max atl,agl,wpl,htl...

I dont want to change implants during a fight because i cant follow up a pistol-spy using a devorer.
No i simply want the option to take drugs and take off my pa...

What will be the next step? Remove buffs because it is unfair in terms of pvp that ppl use alt ppus to buff their main char?

Bragi
22-05-15, 00:24
OK, so do you guys want a system where you don't need drugs, or one where you do?

OLD No.7 BrAnD
22-05-15, 01:13
OK, so do you guys want a system where you don't need drugs, or one where you do?

I highly prefer a system with drugs, it extends the possibilities of different setups. Even now you don't have to use them to be competitive, although if you wanna maximize your character/output you'll take them. It brings another aspect to the game and the required micro-management seperates good players from....not so good ones.

I dont see the negative aspects of drugs beside the fact that some people are just too lazy to manage them in fights.

StevenJ
22-05-15, 03:07
Key here is in the word "need" - temporal, expensive, downtime inducing items. In answer to the above binary question - no. Temporal and downtime inducing items aren't fun. Fuck reality, etc! :p

OLD No.7 BrAnD
22-05-15, 11:34
Key here is in the word "need"...

As i mentioned above, there is no need to take them. It's up to you if you do or don't. In OP-fights you are perfectly fine to play without, it's just an extra boost or you take them to maximize a setup to it's full potential.

My exprience so far is that there are people who wanna maximize things and people who don't like the extra stress in fights. They dont like the fact to use their weapons on buffs/drugs only and therefore they dont play with them. Not to mention infight drug-rezzes or extra drugs to delay the flash. But if you really feel a disadvantage over the guys who use drugs, it's totally up to you to change your style of playing. Crying for fixes/nerfs etc. is weak and the easiest way possible to avoid having to cope with things you dont like/feel wrong.

Generally spoken, drugs are a proven thing in NC, both views have their right to exist and it's not a problem to play either style.

And one more thing looking a bit further into the future of NC: When freezes are a thing again, you'll have to take anti-freeze-drugs from time to time (hopefully not the same amount like back in the days:eek:), so it will get a lot harder for drug addicts to consistently play on a max-drugged setup (anti-freeze-drugs-drugflash-inc)!

Snake EYE
22-05-15, 21:20
TL;DR - This means I'll read the rest next time.

A short question from my side - Do you want to keep the current "drug hell" or do you want the NC1 version? I personally prefer a drugfree gameplay ;p Drugs shouldn't be a need to play a character it should act like a powerup with malusses ofc. imho

I'd say go back to the old NC1 system. I use drugs just now and I don't mind them at all. As others have said, they're fairly easy to manage. I just think it was much better in NC1 when you didn't _need_ them. Yes, you can play without them, but if you put two fairly equally skilled players up against each other now - one with drugs and one without - the one that's drugging will certainly win. That's too much of an advantage in my eyes.
Plus it gives people another reason to run their 5 alts on 5 different accounts to the OP they're about to attack: so when they get drug flash they just hop onto another toon.

Drachenpaladin
22-05-15, 21:42
Uhm, theoretical question:

If you put a drugless setup against a drug-user setup, with equal skilled players - wouldn't the drugless setup gain a further edge over the drugster when using drugs for himself anyway? Simply from the skill-overkill, e.g. the abundance of performance enhancing factors applied to the already working setup?
Are there any ceilings like diminishing returns or anything working on those levels?

BlueRobot
23-05-15, 02:16
Uhm, theoretical question:

If you put a drugless setup against a drug-user setup, with equal skilled players - wouldn't the drugless setup gain a further edge over the drugster when using drugs for himself anyway? Simply from the skill-overkill, e.g. the abundance of performance enhancing factors applied to the already working setup?
Are there any ceilings like diminishing returns or anything working on those levels?

Not sure if thats what you mean, but by making your satup with drugs (and PPU buffs) in mind you can optimize far better for stuff like opfights. The character will be a lot better in opfights than one that can work without drugs.


My opinion: Due to the above explanation a drugsetup is also more fun in opfights, so I wouldn't want them to be irrelevant there, but there has do be a downside. Maybe some visible mark that tells you how long it takes for someones drugs to run out could work. This would give you strategic options/advantages when fighting against drug users.

Divide
23-05-15, 18:00
There are antibuffs which remove buffs. Why can't there be antibodies which remove drugs? Could make a nanite build useful outside of solo play (which itself has been broken for quite some time now).

StevenJ
24-05-15, 01:55
there is no need to take them. It's up to you if you do or don't. In OP-fights you are perfectly fine to play without, it's just an extra boost or you take them to maximize a setup to it's full potential.In a competitive game, people want/need to maximise their effectiveness to win. While there's no need to use the best weapons, there's a very, very strong case for doing so - and that will always, always be the case.

William Antrim
24-05-15, 17:22
All good points raised on all sides.

Drugs are a good cash sink also though, they should have a place in the world of Neocron but they should not be NEEDED. They should be simple, easy to use and part of the life as cyberpunk without drugs in some form or another is just not cyberpunk enough. There will always be dropouts, down and outs, hobos, bums whatever you want to call them but they have a place in this society. The Black Dragon clan exists to serve this aspect of society and from a "lore/rp/theme" setting there is a need for them.

However they should give a minimal edge and be an option to give extra edge to a player but not be a crutch to be used in combat.

If anything I would like to see their effects lessened and their use prolonged. They should/could perhaps be given to players levelling up and enjoying the game rather than the be all and end all of pvp as was 2.2.

Morekai
25-05-15, 10:49
All good points raised on all sides.

Drugs are a good cash sink also though, they should have a place in the world of Neocron but they should not be NEEDED. They should be simple, easy to use and part of the life as cyberpunk without drugs in some form or another is just not cyberpunk enough. There will always be dropouts, down and outs, hobos, bums whatever you want to call them but they have a place in this society. The Black Dragon clan exists to serve this aspect of society and from a "lore/rp/theme" setting there is a need for them.

However they should give a minimal edge and be an option to give extra edge to a player but not be a crutch to be used in combat.

If anything I would like to see their effects lessened and their use prolonged. They should/could perhaps be given to players levelling up and enjoying the game rather than the be all and end all of pvp as was 2.2.

as we are talking about cyberpunk and drugs here i would like to add another idea, although i am not sure if it can be put in the game with the current mechanics: Addiction. Right now we do get a drugflash from using drugs. but we all know that there is also a much more dire effect to drugs - called addiction. My idea would be this: If a drug with good bonuses (and I am thinking of BD FSM stuff here) is used, you risk getting addicted. The effect would be a permanent light drugflash which is only cured if another dose of the same drug is used (so no drugrezz). Once that runs out the perma-flash returns.
This way people would have to think twice if they want the hefty bonus or not. the less severe drugs would keep the current effect though. This is meant for the good stuff ^^


What do you guys think?

DomeOfTerror
25-05-15, 23:21
The effect would be a permanent light drugflash which is only cured if another dose of the same drug is used (so no drugrezz). Once that runs out the perma-flash returns.


Sounds cool, but the perma-flash can only last a couple days real time
if no drugs are used because the addiction would then be gone.

I think the ability to continue using the drugs with no flash but a semi
permanent flash (couple days, as above) if you stop using is a good idea.

Continuous drug use could cause implant damage, like the physical damage
real drugs cause and, or, a temporary health reduction to go with the
perma-flash.

Morekai
26-05-15, 08:54
Sounds cool, but the perma-flash can only last a couple days real time
if no drugs are used because the addiction would then be gone.

Agreed - however, the counter shouldn't continue while the character is logged out. After all the idea is to make the player think about the adverse effects of drugs. So the character would have to spend quite a while in Neocron to get clean again.


I think the ability to continue using the drugs with no flash but a semi
permanent flash (couple days, as above) if you stop using is a good idea.

Continuous drug use could cause implant damage, like the physical damage
real drugs cause and, or, a temporary health reduction to go with the
perma-flash.
Good idea. perhaps a passive Body Health debuff

William Antrim
26-05-15, 13:01
Drug flash should go the way of parashock in my eyes. Anything involving loss of control of character in an fps is alien to me.

Having nerfed stats I can cope with, loss of movement control is just horse shit.

OLD No.7 BrAnD
26-05-15, 13:53
Before any changes hit the test- or retailserver the freeze weapons and spells have to work as intended. As Zoltan mentioned in one of his posts (http://forum.neocron-game.com/showthread.php?156188-R-198-Changing-Gear-Soft-Patches-to-the-Rescue), they have plans to revive them. I don't know how many of you played back in the days when the Parashock-Halo was as strong as the Holy-Para, but simply had nearly no mana cost and casting time. As a Tank for example you had to eat anti-freeze-drugs like mad. Over this quite long period, you became drugflashes just by using the anti-freeze-drugs. You simply couldn't afford to use any other drugs in order to stay relevant long enough in fights.

Now Zoltan also mentioned that it won't be as horrible as back in the days, but if there is the need of using anti-freeze-drugs again, the whole drug thing will change automatically again without no need of introducing a whole new mechanic at all. Simply because you can't start with e.g.: 4 drugs at all. When the anti-freeze-flash hits you, you'll have to throw in even more "normal" drugs to delay the flash again, and your enemy, if still alive, won't stop casting freezes on you, so you'll also have to keep using anti-freeze-drugs. It's kind of a loop you're stuck in.

I hope you all get what i'm trying to tell you. Just let us all wait for the exact new freeze-mechanism and then, after we know what's the deal and some testing let's see if any changes to drugs are still needed. Since both drugs and freezes are strongly linked that would be the best way to encounter the whole thing without the chance of creating new problems by implementing new things.

The other way to think of all this is of course if you simply don't want drugs in the game, no matter what. But to be fair you should be able list some good arguments why you don't want them. Because (in my opinion) the fact that others use them and you don't want to is simply you not willing to adapt to the situation. Drugs are not broken and crying for fixes/nerfs is always easier then adapting to it.

Kalonji Faya
27-05-15, 10:48
WTF ??! Neocron will no longer be Cyberpunk ???! Are you kidding ?! Some folks want Drugs to be Removed ???! Hey guys you won't ask for Elves too no ?! Neocron is Cyberpunk, Neocron is Post-Apo, Neocron needs drugs !!!

If you remove drugs, why not remove Pepper park whores, mutants, etc ...

Don't remove drugs, add some kind of drugs, remove useless ones, add more variety !! Like I always say, Neocron doesn't need content to be removed, only content to be added !!

Kalonji Faya

Drachenpaladin
27-05-15, 14:30
WTF ??! Neocron will no longer be Cyberpunk ???! Are you kidding ?! Some folks want Drugs to be Removed ???! Hey guys you won't ask for Elves too no ?! Neocron is Cyberpunk, Neocron is Post-Apo, Neocron needs drugs !!!

If you remove drugs, why not remove Pepper park whores, mutants, etc ...

Don't remove drugs, add some kind of drugs, remove useless ones, add more variety !! Like I always say, Neocron doesn't need content to be removed, only content to be added !!

Kalonji Faya

Hyperbole much? O_o

bmurph101
27-05-15, 20:18
I've never once used drugs irl.

I don't want to be forced to use them in a video game to be viable.

/thread

DomeOfTerror
27-05-15, 23:05
I've never once used drugs irl.

I don't want to be forced to use them in a video game to be viable.

/thread

Post Apocalyptic world, cyberpunk.
Brain and body implants, drugs, strip clubs, dead hookers in the subway...
Hookers in Dome used to offer their "services".

This is a pain-filled future world where life is hard...

Please don't make ridiculous comparisons to real life.

bmurph101
27-05-15, 23:24
Post Apocalyptic world, cyberpunk.
Brain and body implants, drugs, strip clubs, dead hookers in the subway...
Hookers in Dome used to offer their "services".

This is a pain-filled future world where life is hard...

Please don't make ridiculous comparisons to real life.

Yeah, ok. So then there shouldn't be in this hard filled world:

-An implant that prevents other people from attacking you
-Areas where you can't draw your weapon and kill other players
-A way to keep your items on you even after death

See? I can play this game too. I guarantee you nobody in game other than myself would advocate for unrestricted, full loot PvP, but that doesn't mean I'm going to cry about it.

I'm not saying they shouldn't be in game; I'm saying I shouldn't be forced to use drugs to be viable.

Drachenpaladin
27-05-15, 23:28
Yeah, ok. So then there shouldn't be in this hard filled world:

-An implant that prevents other people from attacking you
-Areas where you can't draw your weapon and kill other players
-A way to keep your items on you even after death

See? I can play this game too. I guarantee you nobody in game other than myself would advocate for unrestricted, full loot PvP, but that doesn't mean I'm going to cry about it.

I'm not saying they shouldn't be in game; I'm saying I shouldn't be forced to use drugs to be viable.

Nope, actually a lot of players apparently would welcome the remove of that carebear stuff like Law Enforcer etc.

BlueRobot
27-05-15, 23:45
Nope, actually a lot of players apparently would welcome the remove of that carebear stuff like Law Enforcer etc.

For good reasons.

DomeOfTerror
28-05-15, 00:04
The LE argument is moot, it's there so people with different playstyles can enjoy NC too.

Anyone that is of a mind to PVP can remove the LE, and anyone that wants LE removed
for all players just wants to gank people that are weaker than them.

If you need kill stats Planetside is that way --------->

So can we just drop the LE crap and get back to drugs and possible changes to make them
better ?

Drachenpaladin
28-05-15, 00:13
Also i'd argue that a mind control chip to steer the aggressions of citizens is PERFECTLY in line with a cyberpunk, post-apoc dystopia.

Bragi
28-05-15, 00:15
It may be unprofessional, but...

+1 previous two posts.

bmurph101
28-05-15, 00:32
The LE argument is moot, it's there so people with different playstyles can enjoy NC too.

Anyone that is of a mind to PVP can remove the LE, and anyone that wants LE removed
for all players just wants to gank people that are weaker than them.

If you need kill stats Planetside is that way --------->

So can we just drop the LE crap and get back to drugs and possible changes to make them
better ?

No one's looking for K/D stats. Lmao.

Open world PvP is different from every other game, because it's terrifying. You're never safe. That's the whole appeal of it. That's perfectly in line with your whole "dark, cyberpunk setting".

And oh, so someone who doesn't want to PvP is welcome to enjoy THEIR style of play, but someone who doesn't want to use drugs isn't welcome to play Neocron?

I can do this all day. You're making it easy.


Also i'd argue that a mind control chip to steer the aggressions of citizens is PERFECTLY in line with a cyberpunk, post-apoc dystopia.

Sure, maybe something to steer THEIR aggression away from attacking another individual.

But that doesn't go in line with other players not being able to attack them.

OLD No.7 BrAnD
28-05-15, 00:34
I'm not saying they shouldn't be in game; I'm saying I shouldn't be forced to use drugs to be viable.

None forces you to take them. No doubt there are advantages and disadvantages by taking drugs. Not having to care for timers, flashes and drug-rezzes provides a clear focus on the combat only, so this is an advantage. If you feel like somebody is as skilled as you are, or even better and you want to increase your chances of surviving/winning, you can take them. But to say you're not viable without is simply not true. There are lots of fights who are done in a few minutes and others which can last up to 45 minutes and in those fights it's a huge disadvantage to take drugs. Of course you can always argue that the advantages of better stats outweigh the negative aspects and since we play on a 4slot server, you can always log an alt when you get a flash, but basically if all comes down to personal playstyles.

And as i mentioned in another post, right now we all don't know if the negative aspects of drug-using will increase automatically by the revamp of the freeze-mechanics (increased drug intake of anti-freeze-drugs). So it's all pure speculation, also from my side. Just imagine all drugs are gone (also anti-freeze ones) and the game gets slower again just because you can't do nothing about freezes. PPU's will again be the most important thing to have (anti-freeze spells) and since they are already few and far between that doesn't sound to good to me tbh.

I do know a lot of (skilled) players who don't prefer to play with drugs, but i simply can't agree with you that they aren't viable at all.

bmurph101
28-05-15, 00:43
None forces you to take them. No doubt there are advantages and disadvantages by taking drugs. Not having to care for timers, flashes and drug-rezzes provides a clear focus on the combat only, so this is an advantage. If you feel like somebody is as skilled as you are, or even better and you want to increase your chances of surviving/winning, you can take them. But to say you're not viable without is simply not true. There are lots of fights who are done in a few minutes and others which can last up to 45 minutes and in those fights it's a huge disadvantage to take drugs. Of course you can always argue that the advantages of better stats outweigh the negative aspects and since we play on a 4slot server, you can always log an alt when you get a flash, but basically if all comes down to personal playstyles.

And as i mentioned in another post, right now we all don't know if the negative aspects of drug-using will increase automatically by the revamp of the freeze-mechanics (increased drug intake of anti-freeze-drugs). So it's all pure speculation, also from my side. Just imagine all drugs are gone (also anti-freeze ones) and the game gets slower again just because you can't do nothing about freezes. PPU's will again be the most important thing to have (anti-freeze spells) and since they are already few and far between that doesn't sound to good to me tbh.

I do know a lot of (skilled) players who don't prefer to play with drugs, but i simply can't agree with you that they aren't viable at all.

Oh no I'm not saying that you aren't viable without them.

I was under the impression this thread was concerning upcoming drug changes. I'm fine with them the way they are now.

I just would rather them not make drugs a necessity in the next patch. All I'm saying.

OLD No.7 BrAnD
28-05-15, 00:48
Oh no I'm not saying that you aren't viable without them.

I was under the impression this thread was concerning upcoming drug changes. I'm fine with them the way they are now.

I just would rather them not make drugs a necessity in the next patch. All I'm saying.

Seems like i misunderstood you ;). I just don't like the idea that drugs are gone since this is still neocron and not a cyberpunk-counterstrike where the only character customisation is due to skins.

bmurph101
28-05-15, 00:52
Seems like i misunderstood you ;). I just don't like the idea that drugs are gone since this is still neocron and not a cyberpunk-counterstrike where the only character customisation is due to skins.

Yeah no sweat. I love the cyberpunk setting; it's awesome. Truly unique. And I understand that deviance is kind of the norm in a cyberpunk world.

Drachenpaladin
28-05-15, 01:07
But that doesn't go in line with other players not being able to attack them.

Oh please. A wizard did it. There, I said it, satisfied? :rolleyes:

Srsly, its just as "in line" or not as you want it to be, even in Sci-Fi where everything is grounded in reality, ahem, its still fiction...

Force fields, Nanite Shields, Perception-bending MacGuffins... really, whatever floats your boat. You can make up ANY explanation if you need. But ultimately the Bellisario's maxime rings true.

DomeOfTerror
28-05-15, 02:36
Oh no I'm not saying that you aren't viable without them.

That one sentence invalidates every argument you've put forth.
If playing is viable without drugs then you have nothing to complain about.

Good day.

Tino
28-05-15, 04:51
Lower the time duration of drugs...if you take one drug it should last 10 mins...if you take 2 drugs the effects should have a shorter time period...in my experience if you take more than one drug you get fucked up faster...you should not be able to take more drugs and get more time before the drug flash...that makes no sense.

bmurph101
28-05-15, 06:03
That one sentence invalidates every argument you've put forth.
If playing is viable without drugs then you have nothing to complain about.

Good day.
No, it doesn't.

Currently, drugs are fine as is. This thread is discussing the future of drugs.

I'm saying for the future, I don't want to be forced to take drugs to be viable.

DomeOfTerror
28-05-15, 06:11
Lower the time duration of drugs...if you take one drug it should last 10 mins...if you take 2 drugs the effects should have a shorter time period...in my experience if you take more than one drug you get fucked up faster...you should not be able to take more drugs and get more time before the drug flash...that makes no sense.

Getting intoxicated faster does not imply shorter duration.

Duration of drugs is extended by taking extra doses, which can often multiply side effects,
cause addiction, or have other detrimental effects.

Taking more drugs should last longer, but the detrimental effects should multiply as well.

I like the addiction idea, take drugs as much as you want but pay the price with some implant
damage during addiction (maybe death or a need to visit Medi if you remain addicted too long)
plus temporary stat reduction and a painful flash when you go clean.

BlueRobot
28-05-15, 16:20
The LE argument is moot, it's there so people with different playstyles can enjoy NC too.

Anyone that is of a mind to PVP can remove the LE, and anyone that wants LE removed
for all players just wants to gank people that are weaker than them.

If you need kill stats Planetside is that way --------->

So can we just drop the LE crap and get back to drugs and possible changes to make them
better ?

Can't let you get away with this.

Sure it would be optimal if everyone could play their own playstyle without interfering with someone else's but as long as the server isn't split into one for PvE and one for PvP this won't be possible. At the moment the benefits of LE when farming contested mobs/areas are exorbitantly higher than those of drugs in PvP (and much more annoying for the non-LE side).

Hackebeil
28-05-15, 17:02
[Edited - please make your point as a normal post]

DomeOfTerror
28-05-15, 20:14
Can't let you get away with this.

Sure it would be optimal if everyone could play their own playstyle without interfering with someone else's but as long as the server isn't split into one for PvE and one for PvP this won't be possible. At the moment the benefits of LE when farming contested mobs/areas are exorbitantly higher than those of drugs in PvP (and much more annoying for the non-LE side).

Sounds like you are mad you can't gank people who are busy killing mobs, aww gee,
what a shame.

Here's a clue: the mobs are for everyone and you can out DPS other players and get
the loot LE or no LE and if you can't out DPS those LE'd players then you need to up
your game.

On the topic of drugs I would like to see Blue Fairy last at least 10 minutes, 5 minutes
is not long enough when you are ressing/constructing a large batch.

Drachenpaladin
28-05-15, 21:10
Sure it would be optimal if everyone could play their own playstyle without interfering with someone else's but as long as the server isn't split into one for PvE and one for PvP this won't be possible. At the moment the benefits of LE when farming contested mobs/areas are exorbitantly higher than those of drugs in PvP (and much more annoying for the non-LE side).

If ignoring players is an interference for you and your playstyle... good night, sweet prince.

Tino
28-05-15, 21:35
Getting intoxicated faster does not imply shorter duration.
Duration of drugs is extended by taking extra doses, which can often multiply side effects,
cause addiction, or have other detrimental effects.

So your saying if you take 2 pills you should have normal vision longer than if you took 1 pill? How does this make sense...if you take 2 pills your gonna feel the effects quicker because you have more drugs in your system...not longer...learn 2 drug please

Drachenpaladin
28-05-15, 21:44
So your saying if you take 2 pills you should have normal vision longer than if you took 1 pill? How does this make sense...if you take 2 pills your gonna feel the effects quicker because you have more drugs in your system...not longer...learn 2 drug please

That would matter if drugs had a spin-up time, but they don't, they work instant.
Also, the more active components are in your system the longer it takes to deplete and convert them, so effects CAN last longer with a higher dose... and potentially more deadly.

BlueRobot
28-05-15, 23:14
Sounds like you are mad you can't gank people who are busy killing mobs, aww gee,
what a shame.

Here's a clue: the mobs are for everyone and you can out DPS other players and get
the loot LE or no LE and if you can't out DPS those LE'd players then you need to up
your game.

Might be hard for you to apprehend but this scenario is NOT about ganking people but rather the options someone has when an LEd player decides he wants your loot/mobs.

Your "solution" forces me to play your PvE playstyle (where I am at a disadvantage because I can get killed by runners) and "compete" with your stupid PvE DPS or whatever. There's a shitton of people like me who think this is so much fun they'd rather log out and play another game.



If ignoring players is an interference for you and your playstyle... good night, sweet prince.


Like the other guy mentioned before, ignoring is not an option. The two options are: Quarrel with some LEd PvE guy about the loot or leave/play another game.

Drachenpaladin
28-05-15, 23:52
Like the other guy mentioned before, ignoring is not an option. The two options are: Quarrel with some LEd PvE guy about the loot or leave/play another game.

I pity you fool(s).

DomeOfTerror
28-05-15, 23:55
Might be hard for you to apprehend but this scenario is NOT about ganking people but rather the options someone has when an LEd player decides he wants your loot/mobs.

Your "solution" forces me to play your PvE playstyle (where I am at a disadvantage because I can get killed by runners) and "compete" with your stupid PvE DPS or whatever. There's a shitton of people like me who think this is so much fun they'd rather log out and play another game.




Like the other guy mentioned before, ignoring is not an option. The two options are: Quarrel with some LEd PvE guy about the loot or leave/play another game.

Make an LE thread, if you think it necessary, but I am not going to respond to any more
of this off topic crap because it is taking away from the purpose of the thread: DRUGS.

DomeOfTerror
29-05-15, 02:42
So your saying if you take 2 pills you should have normal vision longer than if you took 1 pill? How does this make sense...if you take 2 pills your gonna feel the effects quicker because you have more drugs in your system...not longer...learn 2 drug please

Once again:

Faster intoxication does not imply shorter duration.

If anyone needs to "learn"...

´Clayton
11-06-15, 19:59
I just have one request, please do not reduce the usefulness of drugs to the point where they become obsolete!
Drugs are a great way to enhance both your setup and gameplay in general. I understand the ideas behind the changes you have in mind (not only concerning drugs), but do not make Neocron too casual or simple.
Besides drugs are probably the best cashsink in the game and one of very few to begin with.
You could simply limit the number of drugs you can take or make it so you lose HP if the concentration in your body reaches a certain threshold, kinda like nanites.

dWintermut3
29-06-15, 09:17
Just had a brainstorm!

I like the fact that there are massive bonus/massive penalty drugs because, for instance, it lets you self-poke TL100+ implants without having to sink a painful amount of skill points into your implant skill, thanks to the +40 available from stacking rare drugs. The difficulty in obtaining the drugs for the convenience balances out for me, because the alternative is just to level an alt and have them sit around your apartment. In that context you can have massive penalties and tradeoff drugs that strongly tilt your build (IE heavy +weapon skill, heavy -HLT or -ATL).

On the other hand, I think there should be a low bonus/low penalty option that CAN be incorporated into a daily build, especially to get PEs into being able to use better weaponry because they get shafted too often. For that, we could use...

FOOD!

Food items are in-game but are basically "loot and eat to save on medkits" or "loot and salvage for chems" or "loot and throw on ground to despawn corpses faster", no one really cares about food. And that's a shame because I think every item needs a use, however marginal. Right now food is just a poor man's first aid kit, it duplicates existing function. I've never seen or known a runner to go into a garriot's diner except by mistake or to RP.

Food items with buffs are a common MMO trope, and it makes sense, look at how much effort runners and weightlifters put into their daily meal plans-- if you want to perform at your absolute peak (which is what a capped character is) you have to pay attention to the input side of the equation.

Food items could have a minor positive-only medium-duration buff, nothing massive but slotting into that "slight boost that can be relied on for your build without too much risk" category. The fact it's one more link in the logistics chain is the downside, a modest +1 to +3 stat boost with a minor amount of subskills is the benefit.

gstyle40
18-07-15, 16:17
one thing i want to make sure we dont lose site of is the pe and drugs and lore of the game. as the game was made originally the pe is a "jack of all trades, master of none" the lore states that pe's have to drug to compete with the pure classes.

with the drug changes on vedeena now i would not use any drugs at all. the negatives are to great for the positives u get from the drugs, and if u take multiple drugs in most cases the positives and negatives cancel each other out and u end up taking 2 drugs and getting nothing but the int and dex or str ect. if u were only using drugs for the +5 int ect then fine, but again pe's are meant to drug to use higher end equipment.

i looked at the dragon drugs, and alot of people claim not to use them, but i know more people use them than will admit, and its safe to say that with the changes made to dragon drugs, nobody will use them ever again lol. i know its not the finished product, but as the changes to drugs are as of right now, i would not use any of them.....and this comes from someone who uses drugs on titan in all pvp setups except on ppu's.

the added negatives to drugs just takes it over the top. drugflash is the negative, and in my opinion it was fine. just my 2 pennies.

Bragi
18-07-15, 23:59
The intention is to make PEs viable without drugs; after all, if the PE is balanced with drugs, what happens if the other classes use them?

I'd also disagree with the idea that the PE is a JoaT. They may draw their potency from more areas than the other classes, but that means they require a higher degree of specialisation.
If there is a JoaT in NC, it's the Spy. They have enough skill points available that speccing recycle, vehicle use and/or hacking (and other skills) does not impact their viability as much as if a PE were to do the same.

I probably did go a bit far with the dragon drugs though.

gstyle40
19-07-15, 00:21
The intention is to make PEs viable without drugs; after all, if the PE is balanced with drugs, what happens if the other classes use them?

I'd also disagree with the idea that the PE is a JoaT. They may draw their potency from more areas than the other classes, but that means they require a higher degree of specialisation.
If there is a JoaT in NC, it's the Spy. They have enough skill points available that speccing recycle, vehicle use and/or hacking (and other skills) does not impact their viability as much as if a PE were to do the same.

I probably did go a bit far with the dragon drugs though.

im really just taking it back to the lore of nc. the purpose of the pe originally was to be the "JoaT". not meant to use the high end weapons like the other classes, but could do all things well enough. thats not my idea of the pe, thats what it says in nc1 is their roll.

while i understand what u are trying to do, drugs in nc 2.3 ect are a lot different than what they were way back when. With the implementation of the xforte's, those drugs really pushed what drugs could ultimately do coupled with caps being taken away was a recipe for disaster.

good luck reigning all that in......and yea, dragon drugs are too harsh :D

OLD No.7 BrAnD
19-07-15, 00:49
Don't like the new drugs at all tbh. Now you get a double/(triple) restriction by drugflash and minus stats (and rezz/downtime). Most of them do not represent a special value, very few can be of use with certain setups, but nothing great at all (costs are exponentially higher than benefits). Maybe you should rethink the way you approach the whole thing, or at least which stats they reduce, because right now you could have taken them out of the game and it will have pretty much the same effect...none uses them. But i think i pointed out my opinion in several posts before.

Bragi
19-07-15, 01:46
im really just taking it back to the lore of nc. the purpose of the pe originally was to be the "JoaT". not meant to use the high end weapons like the other classes, but could do all things well enough. thats not my idea of the pe, thats what it says in nc1 is their roll.

I think we have a different idea of what a JoaT is (which has been a long running debate over NC's history).


right now you could have taken them out of the game and it will have pretty much the same effect

Drugs = Better?
vs.
Drugs = Different option?

Is increasing you DEX by +5 and AGL by +20 not worth -15 HLT?

Edit:
The actual numbers involved can be changed. The question is about what role drugs play; An all-encompassing necessity for PvP, a mechanism for alternative setups outside the implant/PA system or something inbetween.

OLD No.7 BrAnD
19-07-15, 12:28
Is increasing you DEX by +5 and AGL by +20 not worth -15 HLT?


as i said


Most of them do not represent a special value, very few can be of use with certain setups, but nothing great at all (costs are exponentially higher than benefits).

Most of the other drugs though are useless now, fact! Why would i use a drug if the cost-benefit ratio is not given?

They never have been mandatory in op-fights at all (except for the anti-freeze drugs at a certain time). Im pretty sure we lost more fights due to drug-rezzes and people who couldn't delay the flash any longer than we won because of drug using/the boost they give. There are a lot of people who don't use/don't want to use drugs and thats completely fine. As we mentioned before, the only real thing is when 2 equally skilled players duel eachy other, than the drugs do influence the outcome. In an actual op-fight it's not mandatory, maybe due to certain setups "needed", but for sure not because you'll lose the fight if you don't take them.

gstyle40
19-07-15, 17:17
I think we have a different idea of what a JoaT is (which has been a long running debate over NC's history).


really? ive never had this debate with anyone because anyone who actually pllays all aspects of the game would understand what number one what jack of all trades, master of none actually means. Your argument is that a spy can do all these things int/dex based in the game because of the amount of points they have available. But in actuality they are indeed the "Masters" of technology, so that in itself eliminates them from being a candidate of JOAT. You are totally disregarding the psi skill, and the str skill. joAC....dont forget about ALL TRADES. a spy can bring nothing to the table strength wise or psi wise, where as a pe can definitely do things. PSI pe can rez and cast low level buffs(very usefull skill to have) have u ever heard of a heavy spy? how bout melee spy? neither have i. in nc1 those were very viable setups for pe's paw of tiger pe was the tits, as was tpc pe. a pe used to be able to gun a rhino as well as drive most other vehicles. the hightest a spy could gun was a scorpian trike. anyone who plays nc knows that the pe is the most versatile class in this game period.

now back on topic....

yea bragi, as old no 7 said, and i think i said it also. the negatives completely out weigh the positives at this point and nobody in their right mind would bother with them.

William Antrim
20-07-15, 13:34
Have you considered doing away with negatives of drugs all together?

What about having different negatives dependent on your class/constitution.

If the drugs could weaken a specific area that the class could afford to lose out on perhaps then maybe it might be easier to balance. Drugs affect different people in different ways in the real world so why not in NC.

Why not do away with half the drugs you have currently and have a handful only, balance them and then introduce tiers of them to people the way you have now.

(I havent read more than the last 2-3 pages of this discussion recently so apologies if this already came up).

P.s

the PE IS the jack of all trades - that should never be questioned. As Mace already said - It is in the book from the original boxed set of NC1. I still have mine at home somewhere and it is widely known by everyone with a working knowledge of NC.

Slightly off topic: There was a really good thread made by Vetterox in the archives about PEs and the old Synaptic Accelerators and how OP they were at the end of NC1 - Vett had 2 of them (apparently) and other people whined about it and how it wasnt fair due to the broken MC5 mechanics of the day (no glass wall any more to AOE through). But anyway the points made in that thread were about how to balance the PE against everyone else as you increase and decrease their abilities too - this is the discussion that has raged on down the years rather than the PE not being the JOAT. :)

LeoPump
20-07-15, 22:04
Don't like the new drugs at all tbh. Now you get a double/(triple) restriction by drugflash and minus stats (and rezz/downtime). Most of them do not represent a special value, very few can be of use with certain setups, but nothing great at all (costs are exponentially higher than benefits). Maybe you should rethink the way you approach the whole thing, or at least which stats they reduce, because right now you could have taken them out of the game and it will have pretty much the same effect...none uses them. But i think i pointed out my opinion in several posts before.

This!
Don't destroy drugs!

kkthxbye

Hackebeil
21-07-15, 14:06
Don't like the new drugs at all tbh. Now you get a double/(triple) restriction by drugflash and minus stats (and rezz/downtime). Most of them do not represent a special value, very few can be of use with certain setups, but nothing great at all (costs are exponentially higher than benefits). Maybe you should rethink the way you approach the whole thing, or at least which stats they reduce, because right now you could have taken them out of the game and it will have pretty much the same effect...none uses them. But i think i pointed out my opinion in several posts before.

Yepp.. Dont waste time on drugs if you destroy the purpose of using drugs...
if ppl are to stupid to play on/without drugs and you listen to 2-3 QQ´s than
simply remove them...
BUT PLS DONT WASTE TIME ON THIS FEATURE if you fuck it up anyway...

#QQDRUGSDESTROYINGPVP

Ivan Eres
24-07-15, 15:57
Yeah, good idea, Hacki.

And very rational.

Cool!

Bragi
24-07-15, 18:43
First thing:
Please don't PM me about balancing stuff. I will probably read it but I won't reply. I want to keep everything as public as possible regarding these discussions.
If you have a particular issue, say it here or start a thread.


really? ive never had this debate with anyone because anyone who actually pllays all aspects of the game would understand what number one what jack of all trades, master of none actually means.
I meant it in the wider sense that a JoaT is mildly capable of numerous different things at the same time without it affecting their other abilities.
A PE uses all their abilities for a single task, be it HC, driving, rifles, etc. but they can't do all of them at the same time. More options yes, but they have to specialise more than the other classes. Spies have more freedom to spec secondary skills as it doesn't affect their primary abilities as much as it would a PE.

Also, the NC1 manual said Spies have easily developed psi abilities; do you want them to have 60 psi? ;)

I'd like to mention that (for example) the 'new' Redflash bonuses/negatives are pretty much identical to those in NC1.


now back on topic....
Indeed :).


yea bragi, as old no 7 said, and i think i said it also. the negatives completely out weigh the positives at this point and nobody in their right mind would bother with them.

What about drugs in general is the worst part? Stat negatives, duration, flash, ability to remove flash, etc.?

If for example, drugs went back to the system where retaking a drug removed flash, regardless of how many times you had done it, would the stat negatives be an issue?
Are you happy to deal with the current flash system (which seems to only frustrate and break up game play in my opinion) if the stats were different?

OLD No.7 BrAnD
24-07-15, 20:33
What about drugs in general is the worst part?

Nothing was wrong with them!-Tbh i begin to think you don't like them, therefore they have to disappear.
But, i'll try it one more time:

1.Fact: None is forced to use drugs!
2.Fact: You won't win an OP-Fight by using drugs!
3.Fact: Drugs already restricted the Runner by a flash, ultimately the runner stands/has to die to regain control over the character.
4.Fact: The time drugs boost you already was restricted.-Although a flash could be delayed, the outcome still is 3.Fact!
4.Fact: If there are 2 equally skilled runners in a duel, drugs have an influence on the outcome.
5.Fact: If you have an "extreme" setup, which is depending on drug using, you probably have great(er) weaknesses without them.(e.g. not able to use your stuff etc.)
-------------------------------------
Now you come up with the great idea of adding negative stats to drugs. Also you completeley change the bonus stats they provide, unfortionately not only by amount (which would be understandable due to balancing-purposes), but also by the stats itself. So it was already a double fuck-up, and you added another one for a triple fuck-up! (flash/stand or rezz/decreased stats)- Achievement unlocked!
As i mentioned before that will result in...

6.Fact: None uses drugs!-Why should anyone be willing to use drugs which do not benefit something useful at all?
Your only good example was the one drug that gives you AGL and substracts HLT.-What about the others? Most of the stats make zero sense. Can't even compare them to the old ones...

7.Fact: Paratemol Forte does not decrease any stat! (logic?)
8.Fact: 3-minute-drugs don't decrease any stat! (logic?)
9.Fact: Since almost all drugs are shit, you can't delay the flash any longer with another useful drug.
10.Fact: If you delay the flash you fuck up your character even more. (see 9.Fact)
11.Fact: Since none uses drugs any longer, there is even less variety in NC.
-------------------------------------
Just think about all this one moment. I just don't get it. Why you even made those changes? If you don't want drugs ingame, remove them. Neocron was good with them, drugs did not fuck up things, people did! At some point of the game they were more essential than anything!-Freeze-Halo-time, hoooray, that was fun...not!

If you want to to extinguish the last bit of variety NC has to offer, please rename the game to Countercron or Neostrike!-But even CS gives you the possibility to use skins. Right now we are restricted to use ugly-coloured PA's which give even more insight about a chars setup. (working outfitter pls)

I don't want to offend anyone, i'm glad to see what the NST has achieved so far, but those drug changes are just bad. You don't have to justify why you do things like you did, but i would hope you'll explain why you were aiming towards that direction, so maybe me and others can understand.

LeoPump
24-07-15, 20:50
First of all: Drugs on Retail are fine.
You don't have to use them, but you can - you can optimize/boost your character (like more HLT, AGL, HC, CST etc.).

As OLD said: Drugs != Plan to Win ;)

Deacon
25-07-15, 10:06
It's a game, so I consider drugs to be kind of RP. That being said, I think most of the time for me it's kind of a bad trip? 'Hey, let's take a bunch of morphine in the middle of a firefight, what's the worst that can happen?'

Drugs need serious downsides - not just during the drawback time.

Odimara Orca
29-10-15, 00:22
Hey Bragi

Thank you very much for all the hard work!

The feedback in this thread was quite hard sometimes.

So let me kick you while you're on the ground :>

(jokes!!! not the Banhammer, please daddy no!)

-------------------

I think the idea you pursue with implants is really great.

Decide between

Boost of primary stat (example: Strength) but malus on secondary stat (example: H-C) -> Use high TL Weapons with (RELATIVE!) lower damage output and generally lower health/resists

Boost of secondary stat (example: H-C) but malus on primary stat (example: Strength) -> Use low TL Weapons with (RELATIVE!) higher damage output and generally higher health/resists

How about using the same idea for Drugs?

-------------------

But before that a suggestion of streamlining:

If you boost a primary stat, only set a malus on a secondary stat of that specific tree (for example don't boost intelligence (primary stat) while giving a malus on remote control (a dexterity tree secondary stat).

-------------------

Problems this creates (IMO) with intelligence and the proposed solution:

Problems: High advantages for classes who are independent of intelligence in their armour choice.

Spies get punished in belt choice if they boost weapon lore (malus on primary stat intelligence plays a role for armour choice)

Tanks don't get punished at all if they boost weapon lore (malus on primary stat intelligence plays no role for anything: imagine a Tank with 5 intelligence and 240 weapon lore :>!)

Solution: There are only trader drugs for the intelligence primary stat, no malus besides drugflash.

-------------------

Problems this creates (IMO) with constitution and the solution:

Problems: High advantages for constitution heavy classes to boost their secondary stats while still using the best resist implants in the game.

Solution: Constitution drugs don't give a malus to the primary stat but to other secondary stats in the same tree instead.


-------------------

Intelligence Drugs:

TL4:

Destrosol
INT:+4

TL16

Thiosofanol
Not needed, scrap it.

Demerisol
Not needed, scrap it.

TL64:

Dolinskin
HCK:+10
IMP:+10

Blue Fairy
CST:+10
RES:+10

Destrosol Forte
Not needed, scrap it.

TL96:

Destrosol X-forte
HCK:+15
IMP:+15

Nightspider:
CST:+15
RES:+15

Constitution Drugs:

TL4

Paratemol
CON:+4
ATL:-10
END:-10

TL16

Terisamol
HLT:+10
ATL:-5

Etharudol:
ATL:+10
HLT:-5

Hemoserol:
HLT:+10
END:-5

Gemilirimol
END:+10
HLT: -5

TL64

Paratemol Forte
ATL:+15
HLT:+15
END:-15

Resist Potions
+30 Resist
-20 Health

Dragon Drugs (Because FSM: Make them Stronk!)
+60 Resist
-20 Health

TL96

Paratemol X-Forte
ATL:+30
HLT:+30
END:-30

Strength Drugs:

TL4

Thyronol
STR:+4
H-C:-10
M-C:-10

TL16

Terisamol:
TRA:+20
STR:-1

Epantenarol
ATL:+20
STR:-1

Ferinerol:
H-C:+10
STR:-1

Trisolin
M-C:+10
STR-1

TL64

X-Strong
TRA:+20
FOR:+10
PCR:+10
STR:-3

Kri'nakh Nightshade (Make it a Drop only, no recycling)
H-C:+20
M-C:+20
ATL:+10
STR:-3

TL96:

X-Beast
H-C:+30
M-C:+30
FOR:+15
PCR:+15
STR:-5

Dexterity Drugs:

TL4

Serumderibat
DEX:+4
P-C:-10
R-C:-10
RCL:-10

TL16

Pentaserin
T-C:+20
DEX:-1

Etharudol:
AGL:+20
DEX:-1

New Drug 1
R-C:+10
DEX:-1

New Drug 2
P-C:+10
DEX:-1

TL64

Whiteflash
T-C:+20
AGL:+20
DEX:-3

New Drug 3 (Make it a Drop only, no recycling)
P-C:+20
R-C:+20
RCL:+20
DEX:-3

TL96

Redflash
R-C:+30
P-C:+30
RCL:+30
T-C:+15
AGL:+15
DEX:-5

PSI Drugs:

TL4

Havenin
PSI:+4

TL16

New Drug 4
PPU:+10
PSI:-1

New Drug 5
APU:+10
PSI:-1

New Drug 6
FCS:+10
PSI:-1

New Drug 7
PWR:+10
PSI:-1

TL64

Havenin Forte:
PSU:+20
FCS:+20
PSI:-3

Kri'nakh Mushroom (Make it a Drop only, no recycling)
PPU:+20
APU:+20
PSI:-3

TL96

Havenin X-Forte
PPU:+30
APU:+30
FCS:+15
PWR:+15
PSI:-5

-------------------

Amount of drugs for each TL an Skill:

TL4

INT 1
CON 1
STR 1
DEX 1
PSI 1

TL16

INT 0
CON 4
STR 4
DEX 4
PSI 4

TL64

INT 2
CON 13
STR 2 (1 the one for damage secondary stat is drop only)
DEX 2 (1 the one for damage secondary stat is drop only)
PSI 2 (1 the one for damage secondary stat is drop only)

TL96

INT 2
CON 1
STR 1
DEX 1
PSI 1

-------------------

changes/effects/problems i see with my proposed changes:

- Lvling with Drugs is limited by +4 on primary stat through drugs

- Setup which depend on drugs are limited by +4 on primary stat through drugs

- Through this proposal PE's could be gimped hard.
- Either make lower TL weapons very viable
- Or give them special +DEX on their PA's so they can still reach a reasonable TL of weapons

- Possible imbalanced situations:

- A Tank can take the best drugs to boost his dexterity secondary stats without any drawbacks on weapon choice or armour choice
- A Spy can take the best drugs to boost his strength Secondary stats without any drawbacks on weapon choice
- A PE can take the best drugs to boost his strength Secondary stats without any drawbacks on weapon choice
- A Psi Monk can take the best drugs to boost his strength or dexterity secondary stats without any drawbacks on weapon choice

- Ithink i read that Drone and PSI Damage is calculated differently from the rest. Either adjust damage calculation for those mechanics to the rest, or edit the values accordingly on the drugs (an even damage bonus for everybody from taking the same TL drugs would be nice)

Any feedback would be appreciated!

But if you're mean i'll come and hunt you ingame ;-)

Odimara Orca
29-10-15, 14:28
I made some changes to equalice the values on all the drugs.

Because i'm to dumb to find the edit button here the updated list (Changes indicated through Update).

Inconsistencies with my self given streamlining rules have been fixed as well.

------------------------------

Intelligence Drugs:

TL4:

Destrosol
INT:+4

TL16

Thiosofanol
Not needed, scrap it.

Demerisol
Not needed, scrap it.

TL64:

Dolinskin
HCK:+10
IMP:+10

Blue Fairy
CST:+10
RES:+10

Destrosol Forte
Not needed, scrap it.

TL96:

Destrosol X-forte
HCK:+15
IMP:+15

Nightspider:
CST:+15
RES:+15

Constitution Drugs:

TL4

Paratemol (Update)
CON:+4
ATL:-10
HLT:-10

TL16

Terisamol (Update)
HLT:+20
ATL:-10

Etharudol (Update)
ATL:+20
HLT:-10

Hemoserol
HLT:+10
END:-5

Gemilirimol (Update)
END:+20
HLT: -5
AGL:-5

TL64

Paratemol Forte
ATL:+15
HLT:+15
END:-15

Resist Potions
+30 Resist
-20 Health

Dragon Drugs (Because FSM: Make them Stronk!)
+60 Resist
-20 Health

TL96

Paratemol X-Forte (Update)
ATL:+30
HLT:+30
END:-45

Strength Drugs:

TL4

Thyronol
STR:+4
H-C:-10
M-C:-10

TL16

Terisamol
TRA:+20
STR:-1

Epantenarol (Update)
PRC:+5
FOR:+5
STR:-1

Ferinerol
H-C:+10
STR:-1

Trisolin
M-C:+10
STR:-1

TL64

X-Strong
TRA:+20
FOR:+10
PCR:+10
STR:-3

Kri'nakh Nightshade (Make it a Drop only, no recycling) (Update)
H-C:+20
M-C:+20
TRA:+10
STR:-3

TL96:

X-Beast
H-C:+30
M-C:+30
FOR:+15
PCR:+15
STR:-5

Dexterity Drugs:

TL4

Serumderibat
DEX:+4
P-C:-10
R-C:-10
RCL:-10

TL16

Pentaserin
T-C:+20
DEX:-1

Etharudol
AGL:+20
DEX:-1

New Drug 1
R-C:+10
DEX:-1

New Drug 2
P-C:+10
DEX:-1

TL64

Whiteflash
T-C:+20
AGL:+20
DEX:-3

New Drug 3 (Make it a Drop only, no recycling) (Update)
P-C:+20
R-C:+20
RCL:+20
AGL:+10
DEX:-3

TL96

Redflash
R-C:+30
P-C:+30
RCL:+30
T-C:+15
AGL:+15
DEX:-5

PSI Drugs

TL4

Havenin
PSI:+4

TL16

New Drug 4
PPU:+10
PSI:-1

New Drug 5
APU:+10
PSI:-1

New Drug 6 (Update)
FCS:+20
PSI:-1

New Drug 7 (Update)
PWR:+20
PSI:-1

TL64

Havenin Forte (Update)
PWR:+25
FCS:+25
PSI:-3

Kri'nakh Mushroom (Make it a Drop only, no recycling) (Update)
PPU:+25
APU:+25
PSI:-3

TL96

Havenin X-Forte
PPU:+30
APU:+30
FCS:+15
PWR:+15
PSI:-5

Teal`c
31-10-15, 10:48
One of the most annoing features is the drugflash , resulting in a 10 minute forced break or getting a rezz after selfkill command.
I just went on testserver for the adjusted items and drugs and after 1 minute i decided that i wouldnt use them if they come to life server in that state. Not because of their negative effects , simply because of the drugflash. Didnt looked deep into all the numbers either. Its just against the nature , the brain wants to be drugged all day long.Period.

So i would change druguse in general this way :

•using the same drug in a short time period after the duration of the drug before has ended will remove the drugflash and if possible will reduce the effectiveness because the body getting used to it .For example : 1. HLT + 15 ; 2. HLT +13 ; 3. HLT +11
•Drugflash only after u quit drug use or taking a different one
•Drugflash can also be removed by using ?Painkillers? , who are very expensive. There has to be a money drop
•cheaper high end drugs because new players ( are they even exist ? ) havent that much money

Using only one drug will give u no negative effects but they will come alive if youre drugged by different ones :
1. HLT +15
2. ATHL +10
= HLT + 15 ; ATHL +10 ; END -20

numbers doesnt matter in this case because i dont know all the changes of implants/armor .... .
Reason behind this are runners who are insanely drugged and also full ppu buffed.

12566

Odimara Orca
01-11-15, 13:56
One of the most annoing features is the drugflash

I disagree. If you remove drugflash you remove the most important downside they currently have -> drugs would instantly become a mandatory bonus you absolutely need.

I'd rather have them in game as a mechanic which allows you differentor optimized setups (psi hybrid or additional resists for example) but with serious downsides (drugflash, malusses on tl of usable weapon)


Please do NOT remove drugflash. After all inconviniences make a game challenging.

If you dislike drugflashes don't use them.

Hackebeil
03-11-15, 16:54
For Tank:

Thyronol
STR:+4
H-C:-10
M-C:-10

X-Beast
H-C:+30
M-C:+30
FOR:+15
PCR:+15
STR:-5

Terisamol (Update)
HLT:+20
ATL:-10

Etharudol (Update)
ATL:+20
HLT:-10

Paratemol Forte
ATL:+15
HLT:+15
END:-15

Paratemol X-Forte (Update)
ATL:+30
HLT:+30
END:-45

Pentaserin
T-C:+20
DEX:-1

Etharudol
AGL:+20
DEX:-1

Whiteflash
T-C:+20
AGL:+20
DEX:-3

Redflash
R-C:+30
P-C:+30
RCL:+30
T-C:+15
AGL:+15
DEX:-5

Result:
- 1 STR
-10 DEX
-60 END

+20 HC
+20 MC
+15 FOR
+15 PCR
+55 ALT
+55 HLT
+55 TC
+55 AGL


I would take every Single Drug from that list and become HULK.
10 Drugs Setup.. But HOLY SHIT..

Odimara Orca
03-11-15, 18:25
Result:
- 1 STR
-10 DEX
-60 END

+20 HC
+20 MC
+15 FOR
+15 PCR
+55 ALT
+55 HLT
+55 TC
+55 AGL


I would take every Single Drug from that list and become HULK.
10 Drugs Setup.. But HOLY SHIT..


Don't forget the short duration of the tl4 Drug.

It would be quite the unpractical nightmare to stay drugged like that.

Are the Dex Drugs still too strong for a Tank?

Quite what I feared would happen.

Solution 1: Including a 4 to 5 Drug Cap, 6th Drug induces Drugflash, with the 7th it gets worse, etc.

Solution 2: Assign cross tree malusses

minus on APU, PPU, H-C, M-C on Dexterity Drugs
minus on H-C, M-C, P-C, R-C, RCL on Psi Drugs
minus on APU, PPU, P-C, R-C, RCL on Strength Drugs

Question @Bragi: Nobody specs into Endurance anyways.

Is it technically possible for minus values on Endurance to affect boosters (You have a drug with a malus on Endurance -> your stamina boosters will be less effective)?

or exchange the endurance malus through a movement speed malus (was thinking 0.5 to 1.5 to 3 percent (TL16 / TL64 / TL96))

Thanks for feedback.

Bragi
16-11-15, 01:10
Please stop sending me PMs. As I have stated several times before, I want all discussion kept public.

Info is being taken on board, though drugs are on a semi-hold at the moment.
As several people have mentioned, the underlying problem is not so much the values the drugs give (which we can argue about all day), but the whole flash implementation as it stands. It breaks the flow of the game and a loophole has to be used to get around it.
Alas, unlike the values which we can change easily, altering anything to do with flash is a hardcode issue.



Question @Bragi: Nobody specs into Endurance anyways.

Which is a shame. It's a wasted subskill. Giving it meaning would be good. I've been mulling over the effects of sub-skills on both hp and sta for a bit.

Torg
16-11-15, 20:33
As several people have mentioned, the underlying problem is not so much the values the drugs give (which we can argue about all day), but the whole flash implementation as it stands. It breaks the flow of the game and a loophole has to be used to get around it.
yes, annoying. but if the drugflash was removed, drugs would be a requirement instead of an option. right now you can chose between a skill boost for a limited time while being stopped by the side-effects sooner or later OR playing without a boost and uninterrupted. what's wrong with having a choice? you just can't have a cursed soul, holy heal and stealth in one char either.

i'd even vote for removing the killself command to stop the loophole use.

on endurance: what about making it a skill to lower the chance of getting a drugflash by a certain percentage? not down to zero but to a soft cap bottom line. this way we could distribute CON points for runspeed, resists, health and easier drug-use. is that viable within neocron's code?

LeoPump
16-11-15, 21:10
Without selfkill command: "friendly fire" to die.

Bragi
17-11-15, 13:23
yes, annoying. but if the drugflash was removed, drugs would be a requirement instead of an option.

I wasn't talking about removing it. Was thinking more of a return to NC1/2 style were flash is always completely removed by redrugging.

Torg
17-11-15, 15:48
I wasn't talking about removing it. Was thinking more of a return to NC1/2 style were flash is always completely removed by redrugging.redrugging doesn't work anymore, not even a few times? i need to test it....
but what about an intoxication bar, not unlike the nanite toxication bar we already have, so players could avoid over-drugging and thus keep the probability of a drup flash low? of course in this model all drugs and pharms, including stamina/psi boosters, medi-packs, stealth breakers, damage blockers (but not food) should contribute to a small extent.

Bragi
18-11-15, 01:24
redrugging doesn't work anymore, not even a few times?

Yes and no.

Redrugging removes the majority of flash (and nearly if not all of it the first time). But each time a drug runs out and you redrug, the residual flash gets more and more, until play becomes unbearable. At which point you selfkill-rez.

At an OP fight of more than 20-30mins, this really puts a spanner in the works in terms of game continuity.

Torg
18-11-15, 17:27
Redrugging removes the majority of flash (and nearly if not all of it the first time). But each time a drug runs out and you redrug, the residual flash gets more and more, until play becomes unbearable. At which point you selfkill-rez.

At an OP fight of more than 20-30mins, this really puts a spanner in the works in terms of game continuity.

Ah... yes. That's why i stopped using drugs in OP fights years ago, while drugging up for higher weapons or missions is quite helpful imho.

I totally agree it's a pain to get stopped by drugflash - but that's the trade-off, isn't it? and making drug-use easier would remove this trade-off, at least to some extent. even if the flash could be delayed indefinitely by eating more and more drugs, so you could fight for hours and have your toon cool off afterwards in the appartment or faction HQ while you're getting a beer - this would also remove the downside, and everybody would have to use drugs in PvP, all the time. Do we want this change?

Bragi
19-11-15, 00:19
I totally agree it's a pain to get stopped by drugflash - but that's the trade-off, isn't it? and making drug-use easier would remove this trade-off, at least to some extent. even if the flash could be delayed indefinitely by eating more and more drugs, so you could fight for hours and have your toon cool off afterwards in the appartment or faction HQ while you're getting a beer - this would also remove the downside, and everybody would have to use drugs in PvP, all the time. Do we want this change?

Indeed. Which is why the drugs proposed on Vedeena have negatives and bonuses as a means to alter the setup, rather than the Titan system, which is purely beneficial (stats-wise).

gstyle40
19-11-15, 07:36
Indeed. Which is why the drugs proposed on Vedeena have negatives and bonuses as a means to alter the setup, rather than the Titan system, which is purely beneficial (stats-wise).

now i get....NOW I GET IT!!! Anyone paying any attention should be able to see, You Bragi are a PVE"r. The changes made to drugs on Vedeena and getting rid of drugflash would be a perfect world for.....LEVELING. Allows u to use that next up weapon and never have to worry about drugflash. Currently on Vedeena the drugs make the skill levels higher, and give negatives to things like body health and runspeed(these arent important for pve) and totally screw pvp. If the changes made to drugs on Vedeena go thru and u make drugflash less of a pain, the pvp community will stop using them all together. The drugs are fine how they are on retail now. So either leave them be, rework the plus v malice equations, or get rid of them entirely. IMO those are the options

OLD No.7 BrAnD
19-11-15, 11:53
So either leave them be, rework the plus v malice equations, or get rid of them entirely. IMO those are the options Agreed, posted my point of view already. I still keep my fingers crossed that the current state of drugs on the ptr will never hit "retail".....

Odimara Orca
20-11-15, 13:18
Agreed, posted my point of view already. I still keep my fingers crossed that the current state of drugs on the ptr will never hit "retail".....

Just Please, Please

Streamline the drugs.

The values are all over the place and often don't really make sense.

My proposition:

1) Drugflash mechanic stays the same
2) Remove coma Values
3) Remove unneeded Drugs
4) Add drugs where necessary so the Options are equalized

Look at the drugs in the attached Excel Sheet, would they be acceptable if they hit live?

12567

Bragi
20-11-15, 22:25
now i get....NOW I GET IT!!! Anyone paying any attention should be able to see, You Bragi are a PVE"r.

Actually, I was coming at it as a PvPer. Maybe not the kind of PvPer you are, bit still.

Here's a question:
Do you think a drugged PvPer should be more viable than a PvPer that doesn't drug?


The drugs are fine how they are on retail now.

The reasons being?


rework the plus v malice equations

Very much in the offering.

gstyle40
21-11-15, 05:13
Actually, I was coming at it as a PvPer. Maybe not the kind of PvPer you are, bit still.

Here's a question:
Do you think a drugged PvPer should be more viable than a PvPer that doesn't drug?
.

currently u dont HAVE to drug to be viable, some of the best pvp'rs dont drug for op fights. I myself only drug up about half the time. if i feel im being hit more than i should, then ill take para and redflash to see if it makes a diffrence. those drugs make me harder to hit, but it also makes it more difficult for me to lock the reticle. An un-oportune drugflash on the wrong char is a death sentence, but thats the price u pay for drugging. Setups are not cookie cutter, everyone doesnt have their skills applied the same, so drug effects are different on most players setups. If u are going to change drugs thats fine, but the current application on vedeena is not the ticket. Im not alone on this.

player skill > drug effects everyday of the week

gstyle40
21-11-15, 05:23
well, u have to drug for melee.....but thats a different problem all together

OLD No.7 BrAnD
21-11-15, 13:53
The reasons being?

TBH i'm losing my faith in you and your work if not even you do read the entire thread. Why are we posting anything at all?
I'll try to sum it up once again...

atm retail:
+ they can in fact enhance/boost your performance for a certain amount of time
+ but you're still not "forced" to use them (already explained this in previous posts)
+ they provide different setup options and possibilities for your characters = more variety in the game

- longer fights can get "complicated" (correct redrugging)
- you get a flash, which is a big but acceptable downside
- they do cost money (so nothing entirely free)
- you need fsm access in order to get them all (except for the raredrugs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

atm ptr:
+ there are no comma values (e.g.: 2,16)
+ you're not forced to use them because they don't provide anything of good use

- almost all drugs are freakin useless compaired to "retail" (cmon, they are shit)
- the variety in character setups gets limited du to this fact
- longer fights still can get "complicated" (correct redrugging)
- you still get a flash, which now is an even bigger downside
- they still do cost money (so nothing entirely free)
- you still need fsm access in order to get them all (except for the raredrugs)
- with the comeback of the freeze-machanic it could be a necessity to take anti-freeze drugs from time to time (even harder to manage)


Of yourse you can argue that they are not entirely useless. Here's a short example:
Entire bonus-malus of a common 4 drug setup (Paratemol X-Forte, Redflash, X-Beast, Destrosol X-Forte):

retail: +2,16 CON, +2,16 DEX, +2,16 STR, +2,16 INT, +21,66 ATL, +21,66 AGL, +21,66 HC, +21,66 WPL, +17,33 HLT, +17,33 TC, +17,33 WPL, +8,33 FRC, +8,33 PRC

ptr: +5 CON, +5 DEX, +5 INT, +5 STR, +15 HC, +15 MC, +20 Remote Control, -30 AGL, - 15 TC

And now pls tell me, why should i consider taking them again? Don't we lose a certain amount of character variety due to this? Aren't they pretty much useless if you consider all cons? Wouldn't it be better to take them completely out of the game before making them like this? (I'm not rooting for this!)

Or maybe would the best option of all be:


Streamline the drugs.

1) Drugflash mechanic stays the same
2) Remove coma Values
3) Remove unneeded Drugs
4) Add drugs where necessary so the Options are equalized

But you tell me please...

bobhoskins
21-11-15, 20:17
Actually, I was coming at it as a PvPer. Maybe not the kind of PvPer you are, bit still.

Here's a question:
Do you think a drugged PvPer should be more viable than a PvPer that doesn't drug?



The reasons being?



Very much in the offering.




Just like to add a quote from Braggi while testing weapons with him on test server.... "Apologies for my aim, i'm just into PVE"..

Odimara Orca
23-11-15, 11:30
But you tell me please...

Huh?

Bragi
23-11-15, 23:28
edit//
whoops, hit post instead of preview, still writing up replies to last few quotes.


- longer fights can get "complicated" (correct redrugging)
- you get a flash, which is a big but acceptable downside

I think this is the key to our disagreement.

I am coming from the NC1 era, where the drugs were more like they are on Vedeena and flash was much less of an issue (or barely an issue at all).
The downside to drugs was the negative stats - an internal downside, rather than flash, cost or availability - an external downside.

My proposition is to move back to something like the old system.

But aside from pure nostalgia, my reasons lie with the break in gameplay that comes from dealing with flash. And even if you do manage it well, you still have a given amount of time before you have to 'reset' your char.
I also will admit I prefer to focus the majority of negatives on the immediate and internal type, at least when dealing with the core of a fast paced FPS.



- they do cost money (so nothing entirely free)
- you need fsm access in order to get them all (except for the raredrugs)

Without wanting to sound too snarky, am I the only one who collects W/R8-10s while on my PvE char to give to my tradeskiller?
I haven't paid for a drug in years and have stacks in my apt.



- almost all drugs are freakin useless compaired to "retail" (cmon, they are shit)
- the variety in character setups gets limited du to this fact

On the first point.... you're right, but I have been trying where possible to forget what is on retail and to think of a different system. That said, the main-skill effects are much higher.
Are the negatives too high? Quite possibly, but the aim was where the bonuses only outweighed them by enough to offset the intended external downsides (and not the ones on retail).

On the second point I would disagree. Having both negative and positive effects on the same drug means a given implant/armour setup can use a higher TL weapon, use better armour, etc. but with a penalty (less speed, hp, etc.).



- you still get a flash, which now is an even bigger downside

Well we still only have half of the idea on Vedeena. And frankly, Z has his hands full with more pressing concerns.



- with the comeback of the freeze-machanic it could be a necessity to take anti-freeze drugs from time to time (even harder to manage)

I... am not a fan of the freeze effect.



Entire bonus-malus of a common 4 drug setup (Paratemol X-Forte, Redflash, X-Beast, Destrosol X-Forte):

Well again, forget what's on retail. Have you tried new combinations, especially those that don't directly oppose each other?



+2,16 CON, +2,16 DEX, +2,16 STR, +2,16 INT, +21,66 ATL, +21,66 AGL, +21,66 HC, +21,66 WPL, +17,33 HLT, +17,33 TC, +17,33 WPL, +8,33 FRC, +8,33 PRC

So you don't see a problem with an immediate total bonus of over +8 main-skill and over one hundred and fifty sub-skill?



1) Drugflash mechanic stays the same

As mentioned, my biggest disagreement here. The flash mechanic as it is is frustrating and disruptive.


2) Remove coma Values

Done.


3) Remove unneeded Drugs

Where possible we aim to not remove a piece of content.


4) Add drugs where necessary so the Options are equalized

*Looks at point 3*
Wait, what?
Why not simply re-purpose existing drugs that we can't find a use for?



currently u dont HAVE to drug to be viable, some of the best pvp'rs dont drug for op fights.

Never said they do. But I still hold the position that the current effects are too high overall. It's more than an edge and that will add a pressure to drug out of necessity rather than isolated choice.



player skill > drug effects everyday of the week

Well obviously. I'm concerned that the difference between people who do and don't drug is too high and the former aren't having as much fun.

For me NC's PvP was the enormous 'ohshitohshitohshit' of adrenaline, tunnel vision, ragged-breath and flow (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flow_%28psychology%29)-born endorphin-rush. Having to deal with the retail version of drug flash only hampers that.



Just like to add a quote from Braggi while testing weapons with him on test server.... "Apologies for my aim, i'm just into PVE"..

Really?

Because I don't have a char called Braggi..... nor did I test weapons with you. So either you're deliberately trying to falsely defame me or someone is impersonating me to do likewise.

OLD No.7 BrAnD
24-11-15, 02:43
I am coming from the NC1 era...
My proposition is to move back to something like the old system.

Well, i guess i am coming from the beta era, and not everything was better back in the days ;).




Without wanting to sound too snarky, am I the only one who collects W/R8-10s while on my PvE char to give to my tradeskiller?
I haven't paid for a drug in years and have stacks in my apt.

You got a point there, but that doesn't change the fact that there are costs involved in the process and i assume you and i don't have the same amount of fights.




On the second point I would disagree. Having both negative and positive effects on the same drug means a given implant/armour setup can use a higher TL weapon, use better armour, etc. but with a penalty (less speed, hp, etc.)

I have to disagree too, the only thing that got buffed are the mainskills, which is nice for leveling, but the big malus sucks for pvp. Just too much negative effects overall as i already mentioned. Try different chars/setups with drugs on your own and you'll see that it's not worth the effort of using drugs at all.




I... am not a fan of the freeze effect.

Neither am i, i hated it, but that doesn't change anything either...




Well again, forget what's on retail. Have you tried new combinations, especially those that don't directly oppose each other?

Well i did, and if you are willing to play a competitive char with drugs the malus-stats suck point-blank in addition to all the other nagative effetcs i already listed.




So you don't see a problem with an immediate total bonus of over +8 main-skill and over one hundred and fifty sub-skill?

No? It would be if only a few chosen one's would be eager to use them, but it's the same for everyone! Plus it's almost completely turned around on the ptr (nerfhammer critically hit for 1337). Not everyone uses drugs and none is force to do so. I mean come on, how often does any of us has to point out that drugs are no necessaty in pvp?! But it's nice to have the opportunity to boost your char if wanted or needed. On the ptr it feels more like i circumcise my char by using them.




As mentioned, my biggest disagreement here. The flash mechanic as it is is frustrating and disruptive.

It is an acceptable downside compaired to the new drugs. But yeah, thats my subjective opinion. I use them to enhance my stats and in return i have to manage my flash.


Anyways, thanks for the discussion Bragi! I don't wanna be the spoilsport, but according to the drug changes on the ptr so far, it simply doesn't feel to make NC a better game and i guess that should be our aim.

Drachenpaladin
24-11-15, 15:15
Was there already an official Freeze/Para Discussion or did I miss it?

Odimara Orca
04-03-16, 17:24
As mentioned, my biggest disagreement here. The flash mechanic as it is is frustrating and disruptive.

You should’ve told us your perspective from the start.

You can’t get rid of the flash mechanic without making drugs

A) Usesless
or
B) Mandatory

Think about those 4 categories:

- Techlevel
- Resists/Health
- Damage
- Movementspeed

Think about it. Even if you balance the - and + values for all the Drugs, the net worth of using them will still be 0 so NOBODY uses them. If the net worth is >0 EVERYBODY uses them.

Because all of those values are almost equally important for PvP.

You can’t balance drugs within themselves. They need another, external, mechanic for this.

But what you can do is replace the Fuzzscreen:

- Synaptic Impairment
- Freeze Effect
- Stamina Drain
- Malus on resists
- etc.

It should not be possible to opt out of these negative sides by simply redrugging.

Preferably also not with self killing.

Make it a severe punishment which makes it easier for other people to kill you. But it shouldn’t last as long as the current Drugflash.

(20 to 25 Seconds rootet in Place, no Stamina for 40 to 50 Seconds etc.)

Maybe you could give stamina some purpose this way at the same time.


Or if you want individual Playstile:

Remove Drug Flash

Make multiple Drugs which allow you to use higher Tech Levels. (at Strenght 10 you can use a +3 Drug, at Strength 20 a +5 etc. (so lvling can still be boosted properly).

Make one +30 Drug (or +50, heck or +75) for each subskill in the game and limit people to only using one at a time.

There. Everybody can choose the one Drug which benefits him or his setup the most.

And maybe even Hybrids are viable again.


Or make something completely different:

Short duration Drugs!

Inject Tool with 30 Second reload time (only one inject tool for everybody)!

Different Ammo:

Athletic Drug (300% Speed Boost for 10 Seconds)
Toughness Drug (+50 to all Resists for 10 Seconds)
Enrage Drug (150% Meele Damage for 15 Seconds)
Psi Drug
Health Regeneration Drug
Construction Drug

Drake6k
10-03-16, 03:07
I'll be honest, I've read 5 pages of this thread before replying.

I keep reading the argument "drugs increase build/setup variety" and I'm going to have to disagree. I'd love more variety with implants/armor/weapons, but not with drugs. Drugs are an obligation, an inconvenience that you must endure to compete with those willing to deal with said inconvenience.

Drugs are cool when a PE can use a cursed soul for 3 minutes, but then you're fucked. Drugs are cool when they help you put on your power armor or an implant that then sustains itself. Drugs are cool when you can poke 115 for a few minutes.

I'd love some drugs with longer duration (1 hour maybe) that increase transport or endurance, things that are more about convince and do not affect combat; the same goes for drugs that affect cst, res, hack, imp, recycle, repair, etc.

If I want to be competitive right now I need to use drugs. Being only able to use your gun temporarily isn't fun. Having to take 2 drugs so you can run as fast as everyone else isn't fun.

I suggest:
If you want more build variety, add more weapons, implants, and armor, so that new and interesting builds are possible. Lower the duration of drugs that affect combat, enough that they are used infrequently in OP wars, and add more longer lasting drugs that affect non-combat.

Odimara Orca
10-03-16, 09:12
The only reason we have such a hard time with Drugs is the PE's stupid Design. If low TL weapons were viable for PE's we could actually repurpose Drugs without to many problems. But as it stands I'd suggest leaving them as they are until after we see the effects of the armour / implant revamp.

OLD No.7 BrAnD
10-03-16, 11:13
I'll be honest, I've read 5 pages of this thread before replying.

I keep reading the argument "drugs increase build/setup variety" and I'm going to have to disagree. I'd love more variety with implants/armor/weapons, but not with drugs. Drugs are an obligation, an inconvenience that you must endure to compete with those willing to deal with said inconvenience.

Hey, i'm not sure if you really read the whole thread...
Drugs are no obligation as some of us mentioned several times before, and just because you love more variety with implants/armor/weapons does not make the fact invalid, that drugs also do increase the variety of setups.

I mean it's pretty obvious that more content (implants etc.) would increase variety/possibilities, but since this thread is about drugs it stands as it is.

P.S.: Don't get me wrong, new stuff would be nice, but since the development/player count is close to non existent we can't count on new items to be made.

Odimara Orca
10-03-16, 12:32
P.S.: Don't get me wrong, new stuff would be nice, but since the development/player count is close to non existent we can't count on new items to be made.

Just repurpose existing ones.

Also with some advertisments and a call out from the Devs to start recruitment, an increase would be possible.

But they once stated they first have to fix some major issues before doing that i think.

Trivaldi
11-03-16, 15:15
...from the Devs to start recruitment, an increase would be possible.
Like this? (http://forum.neocron-game.com/showthread.php?156433-Volunteers-Required)

Odimara Orca
11-03-16, 15:29
Like this? (http://forum.neocron-game.com/showthread.php?156433-Volunteers-Required)

I was thinking about the playerbase :>! But let me have a look...

Bragi
13-03-16, 01:50
Incidentally, the next version of drugs is going to be more 'Titanesque'.

The effects are integer and unlike what is on Vedeena currently; they might not be as potent as they are on retail, but more like tweaked versions and/or have a singular purpose.

The current drug flash system is hard-coded, making experimenting with it difficult.
In some ways, drug changes were brought in too early, in part because it's easy to alter them - unlike for example, shields.

I also misjudged the perceived downside for drug use; I am from the NC1 old school, where the flash was not the issue, but the negative skill effects. The current retail incarnation of drugs irks me immensely in that respect; it offers nothing but positives, so I approached it entirely from the perspective of the item stats.


I still want to look at drugs from a wide view though.
The whole concept of drug-rezzing seems daft; it breaks game-play, especially in long-form OP fights. PvP away from large team events is also restricted as there is only a certain amount of time you can spend before you cannot fight anymore. I would rather people be able to fight as long as they like. Hence the focus on the difference between positive and negative drug stats (but ignoring the current flash mechanic).


The whole system is horribly complex; we need to build up each layer, but it is probable that drugs were looked at too soon.
Of course, how you view the effects of each layer affects and is affected by how you view another layer.

Altering a layer so that it is 'neutral' with respects to layers past and to come is near impossible. Your view of how each layer works will always be affected be what surrounds it - altered or not.
I think we will put the whole drug discussion on hold for a bit until we have more important stuff out of the way and we can truly focus on the entirety of how drugs operate.

Odimara Orca
14-03-16, 07:51
Hey Bragi

Great to hear, I absoluty agree after doing some brainstorming myself. So might we see the armor and implant changes hit titan, with drugs essentially staying the same?

Any chance we get an Sql Dump with the next update to veedeena?

carnaged
04-08-16, 12:53
I actually think that the alcohols within neocron should have an effect on stamina. My suggestion is to let them just make the stamina obsolete for a period of time until the screen goes fuzzy, then let the usual effect take its course. If you did the same with the food/candy, only for psi power, you could make the fuzzy effect if more than the maximum amount of psi power is used.

William Antrim
04-08-16, 13:45
What about removing drug flash all together but having a DOT (damage over time) on the players health which gradually ticks down at the point when the drugs run out.

The dot can be removed by perhaps another substance (beers maybe?) or wear out by itself. The DOT could also be healed up.

So drugging in op fights would probably not be too adversely affected, drugging in solo fights SHOULD not lead to too much downtime and if your drugs go in the middle of the fight then maybe the fight just ends a tiny bit quicker?

If medkits can combat the drug damage effect the player can "plan" for it and safely get away to heal up and negate the issue but it also confers an advantage to the opponent when the drugs ARENT on. Hopefully this will go some way towards appeasing the "anti-drug" crowd. If the medkit keeps the damage lost due to the drug come down then the player doesnt gain any healing from the medkit you see, rather he is popping them to stay alive for a few minutes more but this is the risk he takes by having the advantage of the drugs in the first place.

The risk and the reward are balanced. If the drug "high" lasts 10 minutes then maybe the comedown can last about 2 minutes?

Doc Holliday
04-08-16, 14:25
What about removing drug flash all together but having a DOT (damage over time) on the players health which gradually ticks down at the point when the drugs run out.




Had the same idea a few nights ago. I was thinking get rid of flash and make a hard penalty on overall health after a certain threshold is achieved. Have it increase as more drugs are taken but then let the end duration fizzle out again after a short period of "downtime" as the runners metabolism (or what ever you want to call it. heart etc) sorts itself out and purges the drug and the negative effects. that would be awesome.