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View Full Version : Your input on: Tier 3 implants vs Rare and MC5 implants



Bragi
11-12-14, 03:42
Part of the implant rework involves making a decision about the relative potency of the rare and MC5 implants over the top level 'normal' implants.

On one hand, we want as many players to be able to engage in PvP at high level. Not everyone at that point has/can obtain the 'Tier 4' rares such as the Marine or Special Forces or the 'Tier 5' MC5s. As a result they should not offer significant bonuses above the Tier 3 implants.

On the other hand, these are the top level implants in the game, are considerably harder to obtain and should therefore afford higher benefits.

Here's some options to mull over; they are by no means the only avenues open, I just want to outline the main possibilities as I see them. Feel free to offer alternatives.



Rare and MC5 implants should only offer a token bonus, unrelated to the main benefits of their Tier 3 originator.

Eg. If the Co-Ord 3 gives +5 Dex, the Special Forces and the CCP might give +5 Dex and +10/20 respective bonus to transport, hacking or vehicle use. The availability of a 'second' or 'third' implant of the same type in itself increases setup variation and is a bonus of a kind.

Rare and MC5 implants should do what the Tier 3 implants do, but just a bit better.

Eg. The Special Forces might give +6 Dex or +5 Dex and +10 PC/RC.


Rare and MC5 implants should afford bonuses significantly above those of the Tier 3 implants.

Eg. The Special Forces might give +6 Dex and +15 PC/RC and the CCP +7 Dex and +15 PC/RC.


The Rares and MC5s do something different.

Ie. They offer something that the different Tier 3 implants do not.
Of course how much more potent they are over the Tier 3 implants is still an issue.

My personal preference (let that be clear), is for the first option. In a similar vein that that WoC weapons should not be inherently better, I feel the Rare and MC5 implants should be a little 'extra' at high level. Otherwise it makes the Rare and MC5 implants too much of a necessity for endgame viability.
I am fully aware however, of the time and effort that goes into obtaining them. Is +20 HCK over something that cost 50k from BTFSM worth it?

I'd like to have as much variation in viable implant types as possible. Unless we expand both rares and MC5s to cover the entire range that the Tier 3 implants do, making them significantly more powerful decreases the number of viable implant/setup choices. If we do expand the range, the we close off the capped/near-capped but unequipped players from endgame.


Floor is open.

//Edit: Someone with access please move this to the vedeena discussion section.

necrocon
11-12-14, 06:50
Ok, only taking a look at one chain of chips here. In this case for HC. It runs as follows. (unless I screwed up)

16 Synapse Soldier MOD S-11 STR:16*** STR:+1.00 H‑C:+7.30 INT:-1.50 ATL:-1.50
41 Synapse Soldier MOD S-12 STR:41*** STR:+1.71 H‑C:+13.70 M‑C:-2.82 ATL:-2.82
66 Synapse Soldier MOD S-13 STR:66*** STR:+2.51 H‑C:+20.10 M‑C:-4.14 ATL:-4.14
115 Area MC5 Balistic CPU STR:100*** STR:+5.23 H‑C:+10.46 TRA:+10.46 HLT:+10.46 END:+10.46

Though I would certainly like to enjoy that +5 str increase, it is pretty damned powerful. I could see reducing it, aligning it more with the progression that currently exists for a STR increase.

I also would ask... that Power Armor stats be considered, if such changes were to go through. (Especially for the few and proud HC Private Eyes).

Ascension
11-12-14, 10:44
My personal preference (let that be clear), is for the first option. In a similar vein that that WoC weapons should not be inherently better.

Sorry to go off topic, but I'm still awaiting WoC weapons for APU, oh, and a rare poison beam?

Back on topic.

I think realistically, its all intrinsically linked with server population, if more are people playing its easier to get hold of the 'rare' chips.

I know this impossible to predict and fluctuates, arguably I'd vote for:

* Rare and MC5 implants should afford bonuses significantly above those of the Tier 3 implants.

But while population is low, they should be:

* Rare and MC5 implants should do what the Tier 3 implants do, but just a bit better.

As people feel they can manage without them, without feeling they're at a major disadvantage.

Dasore
11-12-14, 12:12
Rare and MC5 implants should only offer a token bonus, unrelated to the main benefits of their Tier 3 originator.

Eg. If the Co-Ord 3 gives +5 Dex, the Special Forces and the CCP might give +5 Dex and +10/20 respective bonus to transport, hacking or vehicle use. The availability of a 'second' or 'third' implant of the same type in itself increases setup variation and is a bonus of a kind.

In my opinion thats total bullshit. So investing hours of playtime in the game gives you a bonus you dont really need, a few points transport or hacking are the only thing that would be even worth thinking of it. But still, therefor i wouldnt get rareparts or even thinking of going mc5. Like you said, hours of farming or 30k Bt-fsm. The Private Eye is the class that is in need of those implants then if they want to use higher weapons like they have to do already now.


Rare and MC5 implants should do what the Tier 3 implants do, but just a bit better.

Eg. The Special Forces might give +6 Dex or +5 Dex and +10 PC/RC.

Tier1: Coordination Advancement V0.1 // +2 dex
Tier2: Coordination Advancement V0.2 // +3 dex
Tier3: Coordination Advancement V0.3 // +4 dex
Tier4: Special Forces // +4 dex +2 subskill bonus ( +10rc +5tc/wpl)
Tier5: MC5 DIP // +5 dex +2 subskill bonus ( +15rc +10tc/wpl)

That way you chould still play without the mc5s.... SF is just a bit better and mc5 is still worth farming.



The Rares and MC5s do something different.

Ie. They offer something that the different Tier 3 implants do not.
Of course how much more potent they are over the Tier 3 implants is still an issue.

Level 3 Rifle Implants give +dex (coordination) +rc +tc +wpl (long distance), what else should the rare or mc5 boost? That would be a total waste of the implants. They are made to boost a certain skill you prefer to use in PvP and PvE, except trader implants. I m the mighty woced Rifle Spy with MC5 and rare implant invested hours of farming those things and now i can use heavy weapons and repair cause of those? lol :)


Setup variation was something neocron lost when going nc2, but also then every tank used moveon/ppr/marine. The problem atm is that every class has to use at least 1 resistor chip to not get overrun in pvp. Hc tanks use the Melee Mc5 Chips cause the stats are better. So for hc you got 1 or 2 free brain implants you can choose, not hard to choose the right onces as marine/moveon are worthless. The rest of the implants is nothing you can really even think bout changing anything.

Same with RC/PC. 2 Resistors or 1 and long/close distance, DIP/CCP, SF/Swat.

About Monks and there implants atm and in the future i could write hours of text, dont want someone to fall asleep so probably later when you guys got the point when we see what you exatly plan to do. (Mc5 DS, +5 psi, +15 apu/ppu, change of the hybrid malus)

necrocon
11-12-14, 16:48
Whoa easy there pilgrim. Lol breath. I'm at work, and your getting to excited when I can't participate.

Drachenpaladin
11-12-14, 18:08
In my opinion thats total bullshit. So investing hours of playtime in the game gives you a bonus you dont really need, a few points transport or hacking are the only thing that would be even worth thinking of it. But still, therefor i wouldnt get rareparts or even thinking of going mc5. Like you said, hours of farming or 30k Bt-fsm. [..]

But isn't that whats makes this the best option of all?
Think about it, its what people want after all. Making T4 and T5 implants a convenience/nice-to-have item instead of a necessity lowers the entry level for PVP and it also lowers the costs/downtime in case of loss. Just like nobody really needs a WoC3 PA but everybody wants it - because swag!
Also this could lead to the resurrection of more varied skill setups, since people are not required to go all balls out weapon+resist for PVP, like you pointed out; it allows spare points for stuff like recycle, vhc or other hybrid setups. Melee/Pistol Tank anyone?

Dropout
11-12-14, 19:35
Also this could lead to the resurrection of more varied skill setups, since people are not required to go all balls out weapon+resist for PVP, like you pointed out; it allows spare points for stuff like recycle, vhc or other hybrid setups. Melee/Pistol Tank anyone?
As long as there is no weapon caps, that will never happen.
People will always try to get the most out of their setups (for PvP).

Drachenpaladin
11-12-14, 22:49
As long as there is no weapon caps, that will never happen.
People will always try to get the most out of their setups (for PvP).

Hence everything about the rares tier of weapons should be flattened stats-wise so it doesn't matter. Making rares a choice of personal preference rather then stats.

Torg
12-12-14, 00:34
the highest TL weapons ingame are 115 for dex and str, 110 for psi (there is no psi backbone tho). it's quite easy to boost your mainskill to 120 and above, using mc5 + rare + tier3 + backbone + PA + drugs (+ dex glove) and still care for your resists and speed.

past generations of rebalancing have created this mess. it needs to be fixed.

*imho reaching out to the highest TL weapon should be possible, but only by sacrificng either resist chips, runspeed, or armour. lets remove mainskill boni from (power) armour and gloves, so you can chose to either go for more mainskill and a higher TL weapon, or use a lower TL one and have subskills and/or resists boosted.

this will lead to a vast variety of setups, and to using all kinds of weapons in PvP and PvE.

slith
12-12-14, 11:47
As long as there is no weapon caps, that will never happen.
People will always try to get the most out of their setups (for PvP).

Falk has 55 Vehicle Use (Gliders!), 26 Pistol Combat (Mendicant SMG & Nailguns!), below 230 HC fully drugged and buffed and can use the A&W Scout Drone SR-1 and Crahn Energy Bolt.

My Exe-PE can also use Revenges and throw hand grenades.

My HC-PE can use Resurrection.

My Pain Easer PE can use Crahn Energy Beam. (Quote clanmate: "WTF is wrong with you?")

Heck, even my PPU can use the KK-100 and the F12 Flamer.

Drachenpaladin
12-12-14, 14:16
Falk has a huge shlong.

[..]

Not to forget your leet jump hx!!!1111oneoneoen :angel:

necrocon
12-12-14, 18:44
Torg that sounds just plain kinda, sorta terrible... a bit...

Torg
12-12-14, 20:21
Torg that sounds just plain kinda, sorta terrible... a bit...just meeting expectations. (*cough) but wont tell us your different view of our future armoury?

ZenTex
15-12-14, 19:07
Do make the rares worth the effort. Anyone can afford these items, either farming them, or farming money to purchase them from other players. Gives people something to do, something to look forward to.
When leveling my chars I'm always a bit sad when I get the best of the non rare implants, as if I'm done. No way am i going to farm for an implant that only offers the slightest advantage over the FSM implants.

As it stands, skill will beat gear anytime in NC, gear gives a slight advantage at most. What new players need to be viable in PvP is practice, not the best items. This isn't WoW after all.

Dropout
15-12-14, 21:09
The most important thing...
No more implants using rare parts.. Do.not.add.more.rare.implants!





Rare and MC5 implants should only offer a token bonus, unrelated to the main benefits of their Tier 3 originator.

Eg. If the Co-Ord 3 gives +5 Dex, the Special Forces and the CCP might give +5 Dex and +10/20 respective bonus to transport, hacking or vehicle use. The availability of a 'second' or 'third' implant of the same type in itself increases setup variation and is a bonus of a kind.
Really bad idea IMO. This would hurt PE's the most, and it would hurt them a lot.



Rare and MC5 implants should do what the Tier 3 implants do, but just a bit better.

Eg. The Special Forces might give +6 Dex or +5 Dex and +10 PC/RC.

Better..




Rare and MC5 implants should afford bonuses significantly above those of the Tier 3 implants.

Eg. The Special Forces might give +6 Dex and +15 PC/RC and the CCP +7 Dex and +15 PC/RC.

Much better! More DEX, mooooore DEX! (yes I need more dex for them noPA PE's! :p




The Rares and MC5s do something different.

Ie. They offer something that the different Tier 3 implants do not.
Of course how much more potent they are over the Tier 3 implants is still an issue.

+lots of DEX and change your appearance to a stripper!
Otherwise, just no.



My personal preference (let that be clear), is for the first option. In a similar vein that that WoC weapons should not be inherently better, I feel the Rare and MC5 implants should be a little 'extra' at high level. Otherwise it makes the Rare and MC5 implants too much of a necessity for endgame viability.
I am fully aware however, of the time and effort that goes into obtaining them. Is +20 HCK over something that cost 50k from BTFSM worth it?

WoC weapons should not be better, I definitely agree on that. WoC = iWin is just bad.
However rare implants NEEDS to be slightly better than all other implants.
Lets take MC5 Balistic CPU vs. Soldier3..
If the Balistic only gave +5(or 6) STR and +15 HC and the Soldier3 gave +2 STR but +20 HC, I would personally take the Soldier3 over the Balistic. A tank simply do not need the STR.
Of course its a different matter with DEX based implants, but it was just an example.



On a sidenote: I vote that MC5's requirements are lowered to 90 DEX/STR/PSI!
Yeah, again for the love of noPA PE's ;)

Tino
16-12-14, 17:44
Lets spend a lot of time making a tl curve for the implants...it will fix everything just like the weapons =)

Ivan Eres
17-12-14, 00:54
Good stuff Bragi. Nice listing and good thoughts there. Your effort is appreciated, as always.


I am fully aware however, of the time and effort that goes into obtaining them. Is +20 HCK over something that cost 50k from BTFSM worth it?

Yeah, it can be. If it'd give even HCK +30/+40/+50 and more it would rock! Because then people could do more things with their char if they obtain it. In this example they could start exploring the Hacknet, they could hack the hackterm in a opfight, they could open the boxes lying around... That's fun! That's cool! These things are what a game needs.

That's why I'd go for the first option too.

The advantages are that more diverse setups are possible, that skill matters more than equipment, that lower level chars can do PvP better, and that you have more options for your char.

It could mean that it makes even more sense to swap imps more often.

Which means more work for pokers/doctors in return.

For that I'd lower the time that these imps need for putting them in drastically, tho :)

I See Blue
17-12-14, 13:29
To me, a rare implant should be a good deal better than the ones you can just buy for 50k, otherwise what would be the use in getting it? I don´t see much reason for people to go to MC5 or farm L parts unless it actually makes a noticable improvement on their character. I´m not talking crazy advantage, but a few % damage and aim extra would suit me fine. Of course you should be able to make setups without them. Luckily we play a FPS game here, so no matter how much you boost your dude, aim still conquers all (with some exceptions).

By the way, I saw Zoltan wants to make rares more rare than they are. Combining that with making rare implants worse sounds like a truly horrible idea.

A few points extra in hacking doesn´t mean your char gets better by any noticable degree, it just frees up a few points for weapon lore.

necrocon
17-12-14, 15:17
I'd like to see more crafting implants, with perhaps better bonuses. I believe it might encourage more people to make combat worthy crafters, instead of playing multiple accounts.

William Antrim
17-12-14, 16:08
But isn't that whats makes this the best option of all?
Think about it, its what people want after all. Making T4 and T5 implants a convenience/nice-to-have item instead of a necessity lowers the entry level for PVP and it also lowers the costs/downtime in case of loss. Just like nobody really needs a WoC3 PA but everybody wants it - because swag!
Also this could lead to the resurrection of more varied skill setups, since people are not required to go all balls out weapon+resist for PVP, like you pointed out; it allows spare points for stuff like recycle, vhc or other hybrid setups. Melee/Pistol Tank anyone?

This. :)

Faid
17-12-14, 18:21
G
Yeah, it can be. If it'd give even HCK +30/+40/+50 and more it would rock! Because then people could do more things with their char if they obtain it. In this example they could start exploring the Hacknet,

Except that implants are null in hacknet and don't work there.

necrocon
17-12-14, 18:25
Except that implants are null in hacknet and don't work there.

True. Maybe that could make the list of changes...

Torg
17-12-14, 22:04
Except that implants are null in hacknet and don't work there.hacknet is great as it is. no imps needed.

Bragi
20-12-14, 20:27
Right, sorry for the late reply, had to sort out some posting right issues.


Level 3 Rifle Implants give +dex (coordination) +rc +tc +wpl (long distance), what else should the rare or mc5 boost? That would be a total waste of the implants. They are made to boost a certain skill you prefer to use in PvP and PvE, except trader implants. I m the mighty woced Rifle Spy with MC5 and rare implant invested hours of farming those things and now i can use heavy weapons and repair cause of those? lol :)
I meant like they could act like Tier 4 versions of different imps, like the balance advancer line for example. Or some could be defensive in nature.


Much better! More DEX, mooooore DEX! (yes I need more dex for them noPA PE's! :p

....

On a sidenote: I vote that MC5's requirements are lowered to 90 DEX/STR/PSI!
Yeah, again for the love of noPA PE's ;)
Requirements are being looked at, as are those of the PAs. The nature of PAs is also being addressed so that they aren't such a no-brainer. Non-PA PA slot items are having an overhaul.

Divide
24-12-14, 18:11
By the way, I saw Zoltan wants to make rares more rare than they are. Combining that with making rare implants worse sounds like a truly horrible idea.

This. Making rares harder to get and then making them less desirable sounds uhh counter-intuitive.

Can't we just go into the old NC1 part of Techhaven.org and copy/paste those values back? The implant system from that point had a proper scaling mechanism, didn't unfairly punish PE's, and Rare/MC5 chips were sought after just as they should be. You can PVP with a tangent plasma cannon and a few soldier chips in your head if you want. Otherwise, get your ass to MC5 or trading and get what you need. End-game is end-game- It's where EVERYONE goes eventually... Making end-game less satisfying by nerfing it so mid-game is more satisfying is a bad approach.

Drachenpaladin
24-12-14, 18:30
This. Making rares harder to get and then making them less desirable sounds uhh counter-intuitive.

But think about swagger!
No easier way to make PvE a bit more worthwhile again! Two birds with one plasma shot! ;)

Divide
24-12-14, 19:01
But think about swagger!
No easier way to make PvE a bit more worthwhile again! Two birds with one plasma shot! ;)

Making things that are not valuable harder to get undermines effort in general and therefor sabotages PVE.

Drachenpaladin
24-12-14, 21:22
Making things that are not valuable harder to get undermines effort in general and therefor sabotages PVE.

PvE has always been about obtaining status symbols. "Looks at me how hard I can grind! What it does? The fuck do I care BUT I GOT IT AND YOU NOT!!!"
PVE in a nutshell for you. :)

Think about it. If you make the items a requirement for PVP you got the lamenting of the PK crowd. If you make the PVE items a requirement for PVE then... nobrainer. If you need endgame PVE items to acquire said endgame PVE items in the first place you have a deadlock with players being locked out of this cycle. And if not then they are pointless anyway since you can PVE without them after all. Or you expect people to cramp a 24 player raid into Gaia boss room in hopes for one Regant PA part... yeah, fun with a lot of friendly fire and no feasible loot-distro.
Also you'd have to go the route of the other MMOs and pile new dungeons on new dungeons every few months the maintain a reward cycle that ultimately is just inflationary for your content.

Swag is love, swag is life! :angel:

necrocon
26-12-14, 05:24
Having "required" pvp gear is a bit of a double edged sword in a game where you can lose your shit. If losing one item makes you little timmy, that is a bit harsh. I forget, but as I recall the only item you can't lose (based upon your soul light) Is your first slot item, generally your "best" weapon. So the implant/s that drop COULD end up in your bag, as well as your armor, or secondary items. So to could your ammo, recyclable loot, or even your butt plug lol! Word is MC-5 and Rares might become even more difficult to get, and the overall pools are so massive. I guess lifes a bitch no matter what happens. Never mind, I don't have a great response, but I will leave this here anyway, Merry Christmas!

r3yka
16-01-15, 21:16
Making end-game less satisfying by nerfing it so mid-game is more satisfying is a bad approach.

exactly this, I think whatever changes you make should make it more challenging to achieve the optimal set ups, and the FINAL tier chips at least should reward the effort you put in. The chips below should be such that it is possible to PVP, as I See Blue said, aim counts for a lot more anyway. Final tier should provide a nice little edge.

more difficult group oriented quests? maybe even make it that, upon quest completion, the rewards are randomized within a certain range. So basically you could be going in as a clan/team and doing them, not knowing who or which class will benefit from the run, requiring consistent group effort to gear up. having more things to do beside PVP will probably have a positive impact on population. The 'quests' don't necessarily have to be combat based too, not sure how you interpret that but there's room for some hard non combat things, hacknet is an example you've implemented in the past. Im not sure what direction this can be taken in as I literally have no idea about coding games and how easy things are to implement but yeh, there's room, there's room... more clan/group based activities will require people to gather their comrades, and if they don't have comrades, form groups and hopefully more clans etc. I guess population could be a factor with team effort but yup im thinking aloud again.

at the end of the day I quite liked that zoltan made the mobs more difficult, and that mc5 is a lot harder. think should continue in that vein. making everything easy is just boring. make it harder I say, and let those who can stand up to the tasks benefit. This is what true gaming is about no? otherwise just counterstrike?

Gridcore
19-01-15, 12:18
MC5 Rare Implant should still be stronger than T3/t4 implants. But like other ppl said before, with this low server pop it is very hard to get one of theese. Maybe it should be a little easier to get them.

Offtopic: I think WOC Weapons need to be much stronger than normal/Rare Weapons.

OFT
20-01-15, 04:53
It sounds like so far the server population is counting as a significant factor in people's opinions of how these implants should function.

Bragi's first option to give mc5 implants a token (non-primary-stat-changing) would certainly achieve the goal to lower the entry level to PVP. His question: "Is something that gives +20 hack really worth obtaining compared a $50k BT FSM item?" It would make for some varied setups, but would they be varied enough to really help each class do something else worthwhile? This seems like a lot of work to sort all the token bonuses.

I really like Bragi's second option... perhaps because it seems like the path of least resistance: make rare/MC5 implants follow the curve with the rest of the implants. They offer a slightly better bonus than the prior level implant, they make enough difference to be desirable to the people who want them, but not enough to ::significantly:: affect PVPers who don't have them. This also answers Bragi's "is it worth it" question.

BUT OFT, why the hell would I go after an MC5 implant that only offers a slight benefit compared to the previous implant?

Because you can't stop yourself. Will you really be able to sleep at night knowing that a couple of your clan members spent the time to get them and you don't have them? What do you think members of the rival clan are packing in their heads? I think this is a healthy vacuum to have because it promotes endgame PVE without hurting endgame PVP, lowers the entry to PVP, and does not significantly affect people who don't have the T5 implants.


And make the MC5 implants hard to get. Make them expensive to purchase if you want to skimp out and buy them from someone else. And if you never actually get one because you don't play much or can't find the server population to help you, then at least you'll know that you are only at a slight disadvantage compared to those other players who have the time/luck/population/motivation to get them. And you can still PVP.

´Clayton
20-01-15, 13:59
In my opinion the rare and MC5 implants are fine the way they are now. So I vote for one of these 2 options:

- Rare and MC5 implants should do what the Tier 3 implants do, but just a bit better.
- Rare and MC5 implants should afford bonuses significantly above those of the Tier 3 implants.

I like the recent changes to the basecommander, making MC5s harder to get. But making MC5s harder to get and then nerf them to being optional doesnt make any sense!

At least now you have a goal, something to work towards to, in a team. Neocron is still easy enough to cap and equip your character in a matter of a few weeks even if you dont have much time to play. If you know your way around NC you can cap and equip your character much much faster!

People and society at large have become lazy and are used to instant satisfaction and entertainment! So dont make this game too casual because of this.

Malabolgia
23-01-15, 14:03
Without going through too many comments, just my two cents in here:

NST wanted the MC5 become harder for certain reasons, wich is a good idea to let rare chips become rare.
The question is: why should a player farm for those, if there is a possible well working setup without the real need of a MC5? If it becomes just some sort of gimmick, why go farm them at all?
Over a decade one thing was clearly visible quite often: the unawarenessnes of what happens if you just turn one screw in the system.
Neocron in my personal opinion faces an upcoming problem in the future: with flatlining and bringing things closer together the speciality of certain things is significiantly reduced even more. Thus resulting in a game without real specialities. May it concern Implants, weapons, armor, or whatever. Keeping up variety of specialities makes things interesting and worth obtaining! As we start to reduce this its time to warn about this bad trend...
Seen this now due to balancing project a little. To me most weapons only differ in damage comparable in TL and thus maybe in a set frequency i cannot influence anymore, lenght of salve wich I cannot change (but other games offer that), and how it "looks like". The only real difference are clearly seen in indirect fire modes like the Winding Argument, the slow moving rocket of a rocket weapon, .... but these are nerfed so hard, that rarely ever someone uses it except maybe for leveling. I hope you get the point if I remember the freezer cannon, with wich you could really freeze your target. Correctly balanced in terms of carry weight, ammo useage, and reload time or aiming it still could be a strategic weapon. But for a long time now these weapons are just a statistic in the list of TH.org.
Do you want this to happen with MC5s now as well ??? I dont hope so :(

"Never change a running system" ... you know these "wise" words.
I would go vote for more variety , difficulty, content and speciality together with both points you offered:
- Rare and MC5 implants should afford bonuses significantly above those of the Tier 3 implants.
- The Rares and MC5s do something different. (BUT PLESE ADDITIONALLY)

Model192
04-02-15, 04:04
Change the core of the game first, then change all the variables to the game.

This will just further dick PEs over.

Morekai
12-02-15, 12:45
Alright - I've read quite a number of varying opinions on this so far. Guess I could just as well throw in mine.
I can see the reason in each of Bragi's options up there,but I'd like to offer a fifth.

My idea would be to entirely disconnect stats and skills on brain implants - meaning that in the end you'd have implants that either boost your stats (like coordination advancement etc) up to I'd say rare level (+2 for Tier 1, +4 for Tier 2, +6 for Tier 3 and +8-10 for Tier 4 (rares)). And the majority of implants would then offer skill bonuses along the lines of what long Distance CPUs or Melee Memory chips already do. These bonuses can then be scaled according to the tier of the implant: +7 for tier 1, +14 for tier 2, +21 for Tier 3, +30 for rares and say +45 for MC5 or whatever. I'm just throwing in some numbers here. But with such a modification you archive two things. First of all you get a nice and hefty bonus on the rare implants which should be enough to make them desirable - but at the same time you also make people think about what they want - either great skill to make best use of their guns, or rather the stats to wear the last sets of power armor.

Also important:
Get rid of all those commas and half-skill-point bonuses on implants and make the bonuses as simple as they used to be. No more +3.45 to something - make it either 3 or 4.
Also to avoid flooding the game with new rares I would like to bring back an idea of the past - make the Tier 4 attribute boosters of my suggestion hacknet items just like SF, SSC etc. used to be so long ago.

Oh and while I am at it I'd like to add some more suggestions regarding implants in general.
1st: Psi backbones
I guess it is common knowledge, that monks are at loss when it comes to implants. All they got is their eye, a set of brain chips and their glove - but they are still lacking one important item-type which other classes do have: Backbones. If implants are to be overhauled I'd suggest to also look into this. I guess there would be a lot of grateful monks if they were to get a psi-backbone.
The idea i have is that of a backbone with psi-resonating crystals or alloys which turn it into some sort of conduit for psychic energy. In practical terms: A small psi boost and a more substantial bonus to psi power and psi use - maybe complemented by a minor focusing boost on higher level backbones.

2nd: Trader implants
From what i see in the streets many players seem to regard traders such as myself as the odd people of Neocron - but at the same time they forget that it is the traders who supply them with the really good equipment they need. Traders are a necessity - it's that simple. Yet implant-wise we are still pretty much stuck in stone age. The only trader class who got a decent set of implants this far is the conster. Others such as researcher, poker or barter barely have anything useful. Let's take a closer look:
CST: cst-chips 1-3, TH-CPU, SSC, Hawking, Adv. Nerves, glove
RES: TH-CPU, SSC, Hawking, Adv. Nerves, glove
Poker: Glove
Barter: Jones-implant
That is it. You may now argue that it doesn't take much to be a good poker - yes, you are correct, but imagine this: Currently implanting is a secondary job for characters who set aside int-points for it. But what if the monk (cliche, i know, but a great many of pokers happen to be monks) could use their int for more psi use instead and get their IMP-bonus from a Tier 3 surgical memory chip?
Also barters are in dire need of some support as is they currently cap out around 180 skill - which is barely even a joke when compared to a fully equipped conster who caps at like 252 or so. Granted, most people would deny needing a barter, but in truth many of them profit from a barter's service, because traders usually use the discount granted by a barter to cut their own costs and be able to offer stuff more cheaply. Stuff which then is bought by the average player. I'd love to see the trading professions on par with one another. Meaning at least the selection of brain chips for all of them. ( Tier 1-3 and perhaps overhauling the TH-CPU and SSC so that all four professions profit from it. Or adding another set of chips to take the place of TH-CPU and SSC for pokers and barters).

Overall I have come to the impression that the presence of traders has become taken for granted, but traders are not some NPCs. They are players just like the shooting ones. So why have the traders been overlooked for so many years? This question goes both to other players AND to the devs. When was the last time you just hung out with your favorite conster or resser, just for the same type of idle chat you are enjoying with your battle brothers? Most people stick strictly to business but don't really interact with the traders they are buying stuff from. That's a shame. Anyway.. I'll leave it at this before I start ranting ^^

I would, however, like to get some feedback to this - particularly from staff.

Morekai
02-04-15, 00:58
After a discussion with Bragi I sat down and wrote a list of how I would overhaul the implants.

I followed my previously outlined course of action and disconnected stats and skills on brain implants.
Implant penalties are selected according to what seems reasonable given the implant's function. The linear progression from Tier 1 to Tier 3 is inspired by Cyberware qualities from Shadowrun (Standard Cyberware, Alphaware, Betaware, etc.).

The general idea is to make the player think closely about what they want to focus on: unlocking the highest tier of armor through stats vs. optimizing damage by maxing out offensive skills, resistances vs. speed and agility etc. The idea is to emphasize diversity. This way there is no longer only one proper setup for say a H-C Tank, a Rifle-Spy etc.

Here we go. Due to limitation of characters per post I will, however, have to make two posts out of this. I also uploaded the file to my dropbox: https://www.dropbox.com/s/5pl7105ot4hdmmh/NC%20IMP%20rework.ods?dl=0


WARNING! WALL OF TEXT AHEAD!


Brain Chips:

INT based:
TL Name Requirements Modifiers Comment:
10 Neural Advancement V0.1 INT:10 INT +2
19 Accounting Memory V 1.0 INT:19 BRT +10; WEP -5 NEW!
19 Surgical Memory V 1.0 INT:19 IMP +10; WEP -5 NEW!
19 Research Database Link V 1.0 INT:19 RES +10; WEP -5 NEW!
19 Construction Coordinator V1.0 INT:19 CST +10; WEP -5
20 Neural Advancement V0.2 INT:20 INT +4
23 Hacking Accelerator V1.1 INT:23 HCK +10; FCS -5
28 Neural Advancement V0.3 INT:28 INT +6
28 Accounting Memory V 2.0 INT:46 BRT +20; WEP -10 NEW!
28 Surgical Memory V 2.0 INT:46 IMP +20; WEP -10 NEW!
28 Research Database Link V 2.0 INT:46 RES +20; WEP -10 NEW!
28 Construction Coordinator V2.0 INT:46 CST +20; WEP -10
50 Hacking Accelerator V1.2 INT:50 HCK +20; FCS -10
74 Accounting Memory V 3.0 INT:74 BRT +30; WEP -15 NEW!
74 Surgical Memory V 3.0 INT:74 IMP +30; WEP -15 NEW!
74 Research Database Link V 3.0 INT:74 RES +30; WEP -15 NEW!
74 Construction Coordinator V3.0 INT:74 CST +30; WEP -15
78 Hacking Accelerator V1.3 INT:78 HCK +30; FCS -15
81 Tech Haven CPU INT:35 CST +15; RES +15; REC +15; REP +15; T-C -20; WEP -20
84 Special Science CPU INT:84 RES +35; CST +35; T-C -20; WEP -30 General Note: Rendering traders using these implants unable to hit the broad side of a barn is intentional. Traders can't fight back without sacrificing their efficiency.
85 Cerebral Processing Core INT:85 INT +12; STR -6 NEW! (Tier 4 attribute booster, HN Item)
115 Area MC5 Hawking Chip INT:95 HCK +45; CST +40; RES +40; WEP -40 Requirements for ALL MC5 chips set to a related attribute of 95.

STR based:
TL Name Requirements Modifiers Comment:
5 Experience Melee Memory V0.01 Beta STR:5 ------ [REMOVED!] (Due to redundancy with Berserk chip)
13 Enhanced Physics CPU V0.1 STR:13 STR +2
13 Synapse Soldier MOD S-11 STR:13 H-C +10; P-C -5; R-C -5
18 Synapse Berserk MOD X-11 STR:18 M-C +10; H-C -5 Requirements changed to equal soldier chip
24 Enhanced Physics CPU V0.2 STR:24 STR +4
30 Experience Melee Memory V.0.02 Beta STR:30 ------ [REMOVED!] (Due to redundancy with Berserk chip)
32 Enhanced Physics CPU V0.3 STR:32 STR +6
41 Synapse Soldier MOD S-12 STR:41 H-C +20; P-C -10; R-C -10
41 Synapse Berserk MOD X-12 STR:41 M-C +20; H-C -10 Requirements changed to equal soldier chip
55 Experience Melee Memory V.0.03 Beta STR:55 ------ [REMOVED!] (Due to redundancy with Berserk chip)
66 Synapse Soldier MOD S-13 STR:66 H-C +30; P-C -15; R-C -15
66 Synapse Berserk MOD X-13 STR:66 M-C +30; H-C -15 Requirements changed to equal soldier chip
81 Marines CPU STR:81 TRA +20; WEP +25; T-C +15; AGL -15
85 Steroid Injector STR:85 STR +12; INT -6 NEW! (Tier 4 attribute booster, HN Item)
115 Area MC5 Hercules CPU STR:95 M-C +45; ATL +15; END +10; H-C -20 Requirements for ALL MC5 chips set to a related attribute of 95.
115 Area MC5 Balistic CPU STR:95 H-C +45; WPL +15; TRA +10; P-C -20; R-C -20 Requirements for ALL MC5 chips set to a related attribute of 95.

CON based:
TL Name Requirements Modifiers Comment:
10 Persistence Advancement CPU V0.1 CON:10 CON +2
14 Blood Filtration Controller V 1.1 CON 14 XRR +15; ENR +15; POR +15; END -5 NEW! General note: I have taken away resistance bonuses from other brain implants and instead created dedicated resistance implants.
20 Dermal Armor Maintenance CPU V 1.0 CON:20 FOR +15; PCR +15; FIR +15; AGL -5 NEW!
21 Advanced Movement Controler V1.1 CON:21 ATL +10; END +10; AGL -5
21 Persistence Advancement CPU V0.2 CON:21 CON +4
28 Blood Filtration Controller V 1.2 CON:28 XRR +25; ENR +25; POR +25; END -10 NEW!
29 Persistence Advancement CPU V0.3 CON:29 CON +6
35 Dermal Armor Maintenance CPU V 2.0 CON:35 FOR +25; PCR +25; FIR +25; AGL -10 NEW!
47 Advanced Movement Controler V1.2 CON:47 ATL +20; END +20; AGL -10
65 Blood Filtration Controller V 1.3 CON:65 XRR +40; ENR +40; POR +40; END -15 NEW!
70 Advanced Movement Controller V.1.3 CON:70 ATL +30; END +30; AGL -15
75 Dermal Armor Maintenance CPU V 3.0 CON:75 FOR +40; PCR +40; FIR +40; AGL -15 NEW!
81 Advanced Tactical Mercenary CPU CON:35 HLT +15; H-C +10; AGL -5
81 NCPD Special Unit CPU CON:35 HLT +15; R-C +10; AGL -5
81 Freedom Fighter CPU CON:35 HLT +15; P-C +10; AGL -5
81 BioTech M.O.V.E.O.N. CPU CON:35 FOR +20; PCR +20; END +20; AGL -10 The significant Agility-penalties on CON-implants are basically trading agility for survivability. You'll survive, but you will be slower.
81 ProtoPharm Resistor Chip CON:35 XRR +20; ENR +20; POR +20; AGL -10
85 Trauma Control CPU CON:85 CON +12; DEX -6 NEW! (Tier 4 attribute booster, HN Item)

DEX based:
TL Name Requirements Modifiers Comment:
6 Targetingcomputer V0.01 DEX:6 WEP +10; FCS -5
7 Close Combat CPU V.1.0 DEX:7 P-C +10; R-C -5; H-C -5
10 Drone Distance Interface V1.1 DEX:10 WPW +10; WEP -5
10 Long Distance CPU V.0.1 DEX:10 R-C +10; P-C -5; H-C -5
11 Coordination Advancement V0.1 DEX:11 DEX +2
19 Balance Advancer V1.01 DEX:19 AGL +10; END -5
22 Coordination Advancement V0.2 DEX:20 DEX +4
23 Vehicle Interface V1.1 DEX:23 VHC +10; ATL -5 It would be nice if VHC would do more than just unlocking vehicles for use. For example increasing turning speed for vehicles the higher your skill is above the vehicle's requirements (up to a certain limit)
23 Mindcontrol CPU V1.1 DEX:23 RCL +10; END -5
25 Experimental Mindcontrol CPU V2.1 DEX:25 WPW +5; RCL +5; WEP -5
30 Coordination Advancement V0.3 DEX:29 DEX +6
31 Experimental Ballistic Chip V2.1 DEX:31 T-C +10; RCL -5
32 Balance Advancer V.1.02 DEX:32 AGL +20; END -10
33 Targetingcomputer V0.02 DEX:33 WEP +20; FCS -10
34 Close Combat CPU V.1.1 DEX:34 P-C +20; R-C -10; H-C -10
37 Drone Distance Interface V1.2 DEX:37 WPW + 20; WEP -10
37 Long Distance CPU V.0.2 DEX:37 R-C +20; P-C -10; H-C -10
49 Vehicle Interface V1.2 DEX:49 VHC +15; REP +5; ATL -10 A good rigger/driver knows not only how to operate the vehicle, but also how to fix it.
50 Mindcontrol CPU V1.2 DEX:50 RCL +20; END -10
54 Experimental-Mindcontrol CPU V.2.2 DEX:54 WPW +10; RCL +10; WEP -10
58 Balance Advancer V.1.03 DEX:58 AGL +30; END -15
61 Experimental Balistic Chip V2.2 DEX:61 T-C +20; RCL -10
61 Close Combat CPU V.1.2 DEX:61 P-C +30; R-C -15; H-C -15
61 Targetingcomputer V0.03 DEX:61 WEP +30; FCS -15
62 Vehicle Interface V1.3 DEX:62 VHC +20; REP +10
65 Long Distance CPU V.0.3 DEX:65 R-C +30; P-C -15; H-C -15
65 Drone Distance Interface V1.3 DEX:65 WPW +30; WEP -15
76 Experimental-Mindcontrol CPU V.2.3 DEX:76 WPW +15; RCL +15; WEP -15
78 Mindcontrol CPU V.1.3 DEX:78 RCL +30; END -15
79 Experimental Balistic Chip V.2.3 DEX:79 T-C +30; RCL -15
83 Special SWAT Processor DEX:83 P-C +35; WEP +20; REC + 15; R-C – 20; H-C -20
83 Special Forces CPU DEX:83 R-C +35; WEP +20; REC + 15; P-C – 20; H-C -20
85 Synapse Booster DEX:85 DEX +12; CON -6 NEW! (Tier 4 attribute booster, HN Item)
88 Special Rigger Interface DEX:88 WPW +35; RCL +30; VHC +30; REP +20; WEP – 40; FCS – 25 Drones are not the only things that can be rigged.
115 Area MC5 Close Combat Projector DEX:95 P-C +45; WEP +25; T-C +25; R-C – 25; H-C -25 Requirements for ALL MC5 chips set to a related attribute of 95.
115 Area MC5 Distance Projector DEX:95 R-C +45; WEP +25; T-C + 25; P-C – 25; H-C -25 Requirements for ALL MC5 chips set to a related attribute of 95.
115 Area MC5 Riggers Dream DEX:95 WPW +45; RCL +40; VHC +30; REP +30; WEP – 50; FCS – 30 Requirements for ALL MC5 chips set to a related attribute of 95.

PSI based:
TL Name Requirements Modifiers Comment:
4 Crahn PSI Controller V.0.1 PSI:4 PSU +10; WEP -5
8 Crahn Defence Field V0.1 PSI:8 ---- [REMOVED!] (unnecessary redundancy with psi Resistor)
11 Crahn PSI Experience Memory Alpha 1 PSI:11 PSI +2
12 Crahn PSI Resistor V0.1 PSI:12 PSR +10; PSU -5
16 Crahn PSI Aggressor CPU V1.1 PSI:16 APU +10, PSU +5; PPU -5; PSR -5
16 Crahn PSI Defender CPU V1.1 PSI:16 PPU +10; PSU +5; APU -5; PSR -5
23 Crahn PSI Experience Memory Alpha 2 PSI:22 PSI +4
25 Experimental Crahn PSI Controller V1.01 PSI:25 PSU +5; FCS +5; T-C -5
29 Crahn PSI Controller V.0.2 PSI:29 PSU +20; WEP -10
33 Crahn Defence Field V0.2 PSI:33 ------ [REMOVED!] (unnecessary redundancy with psi Resistor)
34 Crahn PSI Experience Memory Alpha 3 PSI:34 PSI +6
37 Crahn PSI Resistor V0.2 PSI:37 PSR +20; PSU -10
41 Crahn PSI Aggressor CPU V1.2 PSI:41 APU +20; PSU +10; PPU -10; PSR -10
41 Crahn PSI Defender CPU V1.2 PSI:41 PPU +20; PSU +10; APU -10; PSR -10
50 Experimental Crahn PSI Controller V1.02 PSI:50 PSU +10; FCS +10; T-C -10
54 Crahn PSI Controller V.0.3 PSI:54 PSU +30; WEP -15
58 Crahn PSI Defence Field V0.3 PSI:58 ----- [REMOVED!] (unnecessary redundancy with psi Resistor)
62 Crahn PSI Resistor V0.3 PSI:62 PSR +30; PSU -15
66 Crahn PSI Aggressor CPU V1.3 PSI:66 APU +30; PSU +15; PPU -15; PSR -15
66 Crahn PSI Defender CPU V1.3 PSI:66 PPU +30; PSU +15; APU -15; PSR -15
75 Experimental Crahn PSI Controller V1.03 PSI:75 PSU +15; FCS +15; T-C -15
82 Crahn Combat Core CPU PSI:82 APU +40; PSU +20; PPU -20; PSR -20
82 Crahn Support Core CPU PSI:82 PPU +40; PSU +20; APU -20; PSR -20
85 Tacholytium Psi Matrix PSI:85 PSI +12; INT -3; STR -3 NEW! (Tier 4 attribute booster, HN Item)
115 Area MC5 Dimension Splitter PSI:95 PPW +50; PSU +40; FCS +30; WEP -30; T-C -30 Requirements for ALL MC5 chips set to a related attribute of 95.

Other:
TL Name Requirements Modifiers Comment:
5 Experience Memory Barter CPU V0.01 BRT:15 BRT: +5
Law Enforcer Important change suggestion:
Option 1: allow LE-characters to join clans, but disable the option to take over outposts for these clans. (very useful for trader clans)
Option 2: Remove the limitation of being unable to put the LE back in beyond a certain level (allowing players to freely choose whether they want to participate in PvP or not – without punishing them for having surpassed a certain level).
Option 3: Combination of Option 1 and 2.
I for one prefer Option 1 (although Option 3 would be better for existing traders)


Eye Implants

INT based:
TL Name Requirements Modifiers Comment:
14 Smart Cyber GPU V1.01 INT:14 WEP +10; RCL -5 redesigned to make them useful
40 Smart Cyber GPU V1.02 INT:40 WEP +20; RCL -10 redesigned to make them useful
44 Cyber GPU V0.1 INT:44 P‑C:+11 R‑C:+11; H-C -5 redesigned.
60 Smart Cyber GPU V1.03 INT:60 WEP +30; RCL -15 redesigned to make them useful
72 Smart Cyber GPU V1.04 INT:72 WEP +50; RCL -25 redesigned to make them useful (Choice between P-C/R-C/H-C eye for weapon skill and this for pure WEP)
88 Cyber GPU V0.2 INT:88 P‑C:+22 R‑C:+22; H-C -10 redesigned to make these useful for traders to be capable of at least using a Tl 9 pumpgun or low-tech pistol (because there are no useful eyes for traders other than rep/rec)

STR based:
TL Name Requirements Modifiers Comment:
5 Melee Coordinator V0.1 STR:5 WEP:+5 M‑C:+5 T‑C:+5 H-C:-5
5 Heavy Targeting Matrix V0.1 STR:5 WEP:+5 H‑C:+5 T‑C:+5 M-C-5
35 Melee Coordinator V0.2 STR:35 WEP:+10 M‑C:+10 T‑C:+10 H-C:-10
35 Heavy Targeting Matrix V0.2 STR:35 WEP:+10 H‑C:+10 T‑C:+10 M-C:-10
60 Melee Coordinator V0.3 STR:60 WEP:+15 M‑C:+15 T‑C:+15 H-C:-15
60 Heavy Targeting Matrix V0.3 STR:60 WEP:+15 H‑C:+15 T‑C:+15 M-C.-15

DEX based:
TL Name Requirements Modifiers Comment:
5 Pistol Targeting Matrix V0.1 DEX:5 WEP:+5 P‑C:+5 T‑C:+5 R-C:-5
5 Rifle Targeting Matrix V0.1 DEX:5 WEP:+5 R‑C:+5 T‑C:+5 P-C:-5
5 Drone Targetting Matrix V0.1 DEX:5 WPW:+5 T‑C:+5 RCL:+5 H-C:-5
35 Pistol Targeting Matrix V0.2 DEX:35 WEP:+10 P‑C:+10 T‑C:+10 R-C:-10
35 Rifle Targeting Matrix V0.2 DEX:35 WEP:+10 R‑C:+10 T‑C:+10 P-C:-10
35 Drone Targetting Matrix V0.2 DEX:35 WPW:+10 T‑C:+10 RCL:+10 H-C:-10
46 DoY Repair Coordinator DEX:46 REP:+20 WEP:-10
50 DoY Material Analyzer DEX:50 REC:+20 WEP:-10
52 DoY Vehicle Coordination Linkage DEX:52 VHC:+20 WEP:-10
60 Pistol Targeting Matrix V0.3 DEX:60 WEP:+15 P‑C:+15 T‑C:+15 R-C:-15
60 Rifle Targeting Matrix V0.3 DEX:60 WEP:+15 R‑C:+15 T‑C:+15 P-C:-15
60 Drone Targeting Matrix V0.3 DEX:60 WPW:+15 T‑C:+15 RCL:+15 H-C:-15

PSI based:
TL Name Requirements Modifiers Comment:
5 Crahn Psychic Power Mask V0.1 PSI:5 FCS:+5 PPW:+5 WEP:-5
35 Crahn Psychic Power Mask V0.2 PSI:35 FCS:+10 PPW:+10 WEP:-10
60 Crahn Psychic Power Mask V0.3 PSI:69 FCS:+15 PPW:+15 WEP:-15

To be continued in second post..

Morekai
02-04-15, 01:09
Backbones:

INT based:
TL Name Requirements Modifiers Comment:
25 Advanced Nerves V1.0 INT:25 INT:+1 HCK:+5 CST:+5 RES:+5 AGL:-5
52 Advanced Nerves V2.0 INT:52 INT:+2 HCK:+10 CST:+10 RES:+10 AGL:-10
80 Advanced Nerves V3.0 INT:80 INT:+3 HCK:+15 CST:+15 RES:+15 AGL:-15

STR based:
TL Name Requirements Modifiers Comment:
14 Strength Booster V1.0 STR:14 STR:+1 TRA:+15 AGL:-5
22 Hardenbackbone V1.0 STR:22 STR:+1 H‑C:+10 TRA:+5 AGL:-5
34 Strength Booster V2.0 STR:34 STR:+2 TRA:+30 AGL:-10
47 Hardenbackbone V2.0 STR:47 STR:+2 H‑C:+20 TRA:+10 AGL:-10
63 Strength Booster V3.0 STR:63 STR:+3 TRA:+45 AGL:-15
72 Hardenbackbone V3.0 STR:72 STR:+3 H‑C:+25 TRA:+20 AGL:-15

DEX based:
TL Name Requirements Modifiers Comment:
15 Dexterity Booster V1.0 DEX:15 DEX:+1 AGL:+15 TRA:-5 Explanation: In trade for the increase in agility which other backbones do not have the dex-backbones are more fragile, resulting in a reduced load limit.
20 Reflexbooster V0.1 DEX:20 DEX:+1 ATL:+10 AGL:+5 TRA:-5 Explanation: In trade for the increase in agility which other backbones do not have the dex-backbones are more fragile, resulting in a reduced load limit.
35 Dexterity Booster V2.0 DEX:35 DEX:+2 AGL:+30 TRA:-10 Explanation: In trade for the increase in agility which other backbones do not have the dex-backbones are more fragile, resulting in a reduced load limit.
40 Reflexbooster V0.2 DEX:40 DEX:+2 ATL:+15 AGL:+15 TRA:-10 Explanation: In trade for the increase in agility which other backbones do not have the dex-backbones are more fragile, resulting in a reduced load limit.
55 Reflexbooster V0.3 DEX:55 DEX:+2 ATL:+20 AGL:+20 TRA:-15 Explanation: In trade for the increase in agility which other backbones do not have the dex-backbones are more fragile, resulting in a reduced load limit.
64 Dexterity Booster V3.0 DEX:64 DEX:+3 AGL:+20 TRA:-15 Explanation: In trade for the increase in agility which other backbones do not have the dex-backbones are more fragile, resulting in a reduced load limit.
70 Experimental Reflex booster V2.3 DEX:70 DEX:+3 END:+25 AGL:+20 TRA:-15 Explanation: In trade for the increase in agility which other backbones do not have the dex-backbones are more fragile, resulting in a reduced load limit.
77 Reflexbooster V0.4 DEX:65 DEX:+3 ATL:+30 AGL:+20 TRA:-20 Explanation: In trade for the increase in agility which other backbones do not have the dex-backbones are more fragile, resulting in a reduced load limit.
78 Experimental Reflex booster V2.4 DEX:78 DEX:+3 END:+35 AGL:+30 TRA:-20 Explanation: In trade for the increase in agility which other backbones do not have the dex-backbones are more fragile, resulting in a reduced load limit.

PSI based:
TL Name Requirements Modifiers Comment:
14 Mercurium Backbone V1.0 PSI:14 PSI +1; PSU +10; PPW +5 AGL:-5 NEW!
35 Mercurium Backbone V2.0 PSI:35 PSI +2; PSU +20; PPW +10 AGL:-10 NEW!
60 Mercurium Backbone V3.0 PSI:60 PSI +3; PSU +30; PPW +15 AGL:-15 NEW!



Hearts:
TL Name Requirements Modifiers Comment:
7 Cyber Heart v0.1 CON:7 CON:+1 END:+5 penalty removed because of minor bonus
11 Strengthen Heart v0.1 CON:11 CON:+1 HLT:+5 penalty removed because of minor bonus
12 Advanced Heart v0.1 CON:12 CON:+1.00 ATL:+5 penalty removed because of minor bonus
16 Filter Heart v0.1 CON:16 CON:+1 XRR:+5 POR:+5 penalty removed because of minor bonus
26 Experimental Heart v0.1 CON:26 CON:+1 HLT:+5 END:+5 penalty removed because of minor bonus
35 Cyber Heart v0.2 CON:35 CON:+2 END:+10 penalty removed because of minor bonus
39 Strengthen Heart v0.2 CON:39 CON:+2 HLT:+10 penalty removed because of minor bonus
40 Advanced Heart v0.2 CON:40 CON:+2 ATL:+10 penalty removed because of minor bonus
43 Filter Heart v0.2 CON:43 CON:+2 XRR:+10 POR:+10 penalty removed because of minor bonus
53 Experimental Heart v0.2 CON:53 CON:+2 HLT:+10 END:+10 penalty removed because of minor bonus



Bones
Head
10 Headbone STR:10 FOR:+5 PSR:+5
28 Biotech Antigamma Headbone STR:28 XRR:+10 PSR:+5
30 Advanced Headbone STR:30 FOR:+10 PSR:+5
50 BioTech Experimental Headbone STR:50 FOR:+15 PSR:+10

Chest
15 Chest Enforcement STR:15 FOR:+5 END:+5
33 BioTech Antigamma Chest STR:33 END:+10 XRR:+10
35 Biotech Advanced Chest Enforcement STR:35 FOR:+10 END:+10
55 BioTech Experimental Chest STR:55 FOR:+10 END:+15
80 Bat Queen Chest Enforcement STR:80 FOR:+20 END:+15

Arm
6 Arm Enforcement STR:6 M‑C:+5 FOR:+5
25 BioTech Anti-gamma Arm enforcement STR:25 M‑C:+5 XRR:+10
26 Advanced Arm Enforcement STR:26 M‑C:+5 FOR:+10
46 BioTech Experimental Arm Enforcement STR:46 M‑C:+10 FOR:+10
76 Bat Queen Arm Enforcement STR:76 M‑C:+15 FOR:+20

Leg
12 Leg Enforcement STR:12 TRA:+5 FOR:+5
32 BioTech Antigamma Leg Enforcement STR:32 TRA:+5 XRR:+10
32 BioTech Advanced Leg Enforcement STR:32 TRA:+5 FOR:+10
52 BioTech Experimental Legenforcement STR:52 TRA:+10 FOR:+15

Foot
4 Foot Enforcement STR:4 FOR:+5 AGL:+5
23 BioTech Antigamma Foot Enforcement STR:23 XRR:+5 AGL:+5
24 BioTech Advanced Foot Enforcement STR:24 FOR:+10 AGL:+5
44 BioTech Experimental Foot Enforcement STR:44 FOR:+10 AGL:+10



Gloves
Psi based:
0 Crahn Novice Gauntlet PSI:1 PSI:+1 PSU:+5 PSI Abilities:+1
30 Crahn Amplifier Gauntlet CAG 1 PSI:30 PSI:+1 PSU:+10 FCS:+10 PSI Abilities:+1 PSR:-5
48 Crahn Amplifier Gauntlet CAG 2 PSI:48 PSI:+2 PSU:+15 FCS:+15 PSI Abilities:+1 PSR:-10
56 Gaya Tacholytium Glove PSI:56 PSI:+3 PSU:+40 PSI Abilities:+1
65 Crahn Amplifier Gauntlet CAG 3 PSI:64 PSI:+3 PSU:+15 FCS:+20 PSI Abilities:+1 PSR:-15

Tradeskills
60 Machina Construction Glove INT:60 INT:+2 CST:+15 TRA:+5 T-C:-5
60 Machina Research Glove INT:60 INT:+2 RES:+15 TRA:+5 T-C:-5
60 Machina Implant Glove INT:60 INT:+2 IMP:+15 TRA:+5 T-C:-5
60 Machina Repair Glove DEX:60 DEX:+2 TRA:+5 REP:+15 T-C:-5
60 Machina Recycle Glove DEX:60 DEX:+2 TRA:+5 REC:+15 T-C:-5



This is it.

Divide
02-04-15, 03:14
Before I start, the revamp had to take some time so thank you for diving into it and making it forum readable and all of that.

I'm initially reeling reading this and kind of altogether balking at the idea presented, but I think bottom line is I need some time to really comprehend and experiment with what this might lead to. It would be interesting if someone were to be so ultra-awesome as to put these proposed changes into nskill to see what kind of builds you could do.

Your comment about diversity is a great start, but it would be helpful if you were to present a collection of setups for one class and point out their high and low points. One thing that will completely destroy this sliding scale of skillpoints vs statpoints is that there are skillcaps for items. You can only get so good at aiming something or can only do so much damage with X weapon. If these caps were removed (or re-negotiated), that would open opportunity for players to buckle down on skillpoints for a build.



My dumb thoughts, in no particular order:
Is it really necessary to have implants put a damper on the opposite skill? If I'm slapping a rifle chip in my head, do I really need some -pc to balance that? Seems over-thought and under-applicable. In what scenario does a rifle/pistol spy pose any more threat than a pure pistol or pure rifle spy? Why do we bother putting enough thought into the negatives of implants that we end up putting -HC on a +RC or PC chip?


Aren't the tier4 stat boosters a little high on requirements?


Can we please just get rid of +endurance on implants? Seems like a total waste of points in most/all cases.
For example - in what scenario would anyone want to choose the proposed Exp. Reflex booster over the plain ol' Reflex booster? Options alone don't create diversity. Good options create diversity. Changing out +END for +WPL or +TC could make the Exp. Reflex booster a contender.


Isn't it time some attack gloves are introduced other than the Psi gloves? Don't we shoot our guns of swing our (stupid) melee with our hands? We added in a whole lot of implants for traders, why don't we just finish the marathon?
60 Machina Heavy Glove Str:60 Str:+2 HC:+15 T-C:+5
60 Machina Melee Dummy Who Needs to Go Play Some Other MMO Glove Str:60 Str:+2 TRA:+5 MC:+15
60 Machina Rifle Glove Dex:60 Dex:+2 RC:+15 T-C:+5
60 Machina Pistol Glove Dex:60 Dex:+2 PC:+15 T-C:+5
60 Machina Droner Butthole Glove Dex:60 Dex:+2 TRA:+5 RCL:+15


No dex backbone could be paired with a holovest unless you wanted to walk around with only a pack of tictacs in your quickbelt. There is no reason to run a holovest setup with any other backbone other than +dex... because there is currently no reason for any spy to rock a +Str backbone. Couple that with the fact that rifles are significantly heavier than pistols and you are basically building a backbone series that will only ever be able to be used by pistol spies.


Part of the blind area here is that armor has its own revamp going and everything is so synergistic, it is difficult to make a decision without knowing what the next step in the process will actually look like.

/edit:
Weren't backbones in NC1 +1/3/5 primary stat? Would love to see that scaling back for many reasons, but that depends on the armor system update that is potentially on the horizon. Back in NC1 putting a Str booster 2 into your spy meant you could rock some Inquisition armor which was freaking game changing. There is no incentive with the current armor system (or backbone system for that matter) to attempt to reach for higher levels of Str as a spy, or a PE.

/edit2:
Dismayed a bit at the complete lack of hybrid monk chips. No one wants the return of the hybrid nuker/healer/tanker, but many people out there want to see room for some hyb monks again.

Ressorator
02-04-15, 09:11
I agree with Morekai about the list. I hope some of these things will be implemented in the game. The time will tell...

Morekai
02-04-15, 12:40
Before I start, the revamp had to take some time so thank you for diving into it and making it forum readable and all of that.
You're welcome. I thought if we want a proper change we need to show those who can make those chances what we want them to look like. so i did.


I'm initially reeling reading this and kind of altogether balking at the idea presented, but I think bottom line is I need some time to really comprehend and experiment with what this might lead to. It would be interesting if someone were to be so ultra-awesome as to put these proposed changes into nskill to see what kind of builds you could do.

Your comment about diversity is a great start, but it would be helpful if you were to present a collection of setups for one class and point out their high and low points. One thing that will completely destroy this sliding scale of skillpoints vs statpoints is that there are skillcaps for items. You can only get so good at aiming something or can only do so much damage with X weapon. If these caps were removed (or re-negotiated), that would open opportunity for players to buckle down on skillpoints for a build.
I'm sure I could come up with a few setups - at least outlining them. For now, however, I had intended to present you all with the results of my thoughts.






My dumb thoughts, in no particular order:
Is it really necessary to have implants put a damper on the opposite skill? If I'm slapping a rifle chip in my head, do I really need some -pc to balance that? Seems over-thought and under-applicable. In what scenario does a rifle/pistol spy pose any more threat than a pure pistol or pure rifle spy? Why do we bother putting enough thought into the negatives of implants that we end up putting -HC on a +RC or PC chip?
I agree to your point here. As far as I am concerned I wouldn't have put any negatives there at all as cyberware is an improvement over mortal flesh. Thing is, however, that some implants need penalties to maintain some sort of balancing - in example to prevent the hybrid monks you are mentioning later on. So I largely kept the penalties on these types of implants so that all combat implants have some sort of drawbacks.


Aren't the tier4 stat boosters a little high on requirements?
no. They were designed with the idea of providing a hefty bonus so that say a tank could use it to unlock his last PA. Other classes won't really need it. (what would a monk want with +12 STR?) This is negotiable though.



Can we please just get rid of +endurance on implants? Seems like a total waste of points in most/all cases.
For example - in what scenario would anyone want to choose the proposed Exp. Reflex booster over the plain ol' Reflex booster? Options alone don't create diversity. Good options create diversity. Changing out +END for +WPL or +TC could make the Exp. Reflex booster a contender.WEP is a good point. I hadn't thought of that. acquisition of a target could be considered being linked to reflexes, so it is reasonable. T-C, however, is not.



Isn't it time some attack gloves are introduced other than the Psi gloves? Don't we shoot our guns of swing our (stupid) melee with our hands? We added in a whole lot of implants for traders, why don't we just finish the marathon?
60 Machina Heavy Glove Str:60 Str:+2 HC:+15 T-C:+5
60 Machina Melee Dummy Who Needs to Go Play Some Other MMO Glove Str:60 Str:+2 TRA:+5 MC:+15
60 Machina Rifle Glove Dex:60 Dex:+2 RC:+15 T-C:+5
60 Machina Pistol Glove Dex:60 Dex:+2 PC:+15 T-C:+5
60 Machina Droner Butthole Glove Dex:60 Dex:+2 TRA:+5 RCL:+15
Nice idea and reasonable bonuses. I would, however, select a different name for the melee glove.


No dex backbone could be paired with a holovest unless you wanted to walk around with only a pack of tictacs in your quickbelt. There is no reason to run a holovest setup with any other backbone other than +dex... because there is currently no reason for any spy to rock a +Str backbone. Couple that with the fact that rifles are significantly heavier than pistols and you are basically building a backbone series that will only ever be able to be used by pistol spies.I've never used a holovest to begin with. Yet as far as the dex-backbones are concerned, the idea is to use them to get more agility and speed - as counterpart to the CON-implants, which slow you down but increase your survivability. I deliberately designed this so that those who would want TRA would have to use strength backbones - because that is their purpose after all.

I am well aware that this is a rather fundamental change, but I hope you see my point. You can get the dex you want elsewhere - from the Tier 4 dex chip for example.



Part of the blind area here is that armor has its own revamp going and everything is so synergistic, it is difficult to make a decision without knowing what the next step in the process will actually look like.

/edit:
Weren't backbones in NC1 +1/3/5 primary stat? Would love to see that scaling back for many reasons, but that depends on the armor system update that is potentially on the horizon. Back in NC1 putting a Str booster 2 into your spy meant you could rock some Inquisition armor which was freaking game changing. There is no incentive with the current armor system (or backbone system for that matter) to attempt to reach for higher levels of Str as a spy, or a PE.The incentive you speak of is precisely what I was aiming for with the dex-backbones. To make the player think "What do I want? and how do I get it?"


/edit2:
Dismayed a bit at the complete lack of hybrid monk chips. No one wants the return of the hybrid nuker/healer/tanker, but many people out there want to see room for some hyb monks again. I am currently working my monk towards hybrid, too. and with the bonuses I put there it should be possible to at least use both types of modules - depending on the armor revamp you mentioned. Neither would be extremely powerful over the other, but both should be able to be used. if my math is off we would have to lower some penalties there.

Bragi
08-05-15, 20:30
OK, I just want to make something clear:

I want feed-back and community discussion. However, I am not going to enter into direct, personal (and especially not private) discussion. It has marred community relations in the past, with accusations of nepotism and undue influence directed at members of both sides.

Also, specifics are something of a moot point. Generalisations are a better starting point, which we can then tweak in light of testing.

Morekai
09-05-15, 10:46
OK, I just want to make something clear:

I want feed-back and community discussion. However, I am not going to enter into direct, personal (and especially not private) discussion. It has marred community relations in the past, with accusations of nepotism and undue influence directed at members of both sides.

Also, specifics are something of a moot point. Generalisations are a better starting point, which we can then tweak in light of testing.

I too would like a discussion - because it would mean that more people are putting some thought into this. And I have at no point asked for a private discussion with you. I have asked for your opinion on this matter - through IRC and PMs - yes, but I never said you shouldn't post your opinion here, did I? The reason is that there was precious little feedback coming from the community at that time.

As for specifics versus generalizations: I think my suggestion although detailed is fairly generalized as the steps of increasing attributes and stats are largely the same across the implants, so the pattern is fairly easy to see.

I do hope though, that more of the community will join us here and start a discussion about what they think of the proposed ideas.

Dasore
09-05-15, 11:29
i already said what i think should be done, i think the values of implants can only be set ingame while testing what are possible setups...
about the idea of the dex backbones... i can only say; no no no... probably for pve, but not for pvp, a spy is the most fragilst shit atm, and then you want to decrease transport even more? -trans = more points in trans = even lower piercing ;)

also some implants are pretty broken... rd for exampe... probably it should also give implant... ;) /ironie off

Dasore
09-05-15, 11:44
Bragi can we get a list of the values and implants that are now on the testserver?

Aerocytes
06-08-15, 07:26
Now I'm not going to go into as much depth as I've seen certain people go into, what with the giant lists and what not, but I'll go ahead and give my input on the implants and what not.

Overall, the changes to implants isn't so bad, with one exception. It seems as though you guys completely forgot about Private Eye's(Or perhaps you just hate them). There is no way to reach a good setup with higher end TL weapons without ripping your con setup to shreds and reducing your overall str/transport(due to new items just to have armor, 1 gun, 2 medkits, healtool and 2 clips of ammo you need 30-35 base transport so you don't get encumbered) so your armor choices are weaker which ends up making you squishier than a spy. The worst part is, you still don't do nearly as much damage as a frikkin spy! The +6 dex PA isn't nearly enough to compensate for how horrible the negatives are on the required implants to use most of the decent guns, and I'm sorry but the Pain Easer and Wyatt Earp just aren't up to par with the others, not to mention why should PE players be stuck to shit tier low TL items? We're already locked out of the upper echelon of weapons and now we're being pushed even further down...


The balance you're aiming for isn't balance at all, I can't think of anything less balanced than making a class completely under par than every other class. I know I've given the NST a lot of flack but there's no reason to punish all PE's just because I main them...


EDIT: To sum it all up, PE's suck with the new patch, we lose too much str/con stats to use a proper armor/con setup(squishier than spy), damage output is awful especially with lower bonuses due to required +dex imps. Why do you hate me?


EDIT 2: There is a reason why rare implants give better bonuses btw. It's because if you take the time to farm them you fucking deserve the better bonus. Don't try to turn this into Communist Neocron. If you feel they shouldn't give better bonuses, then remove them from the rare pool. Put the SF back into CA FSM and the swat to another fsm and the other rare imps to other fsm's because there is absolutely no point in having yet more worthless rares. Already half of the rare pool is complete rubbish ffs. Might I add this horrid attempt at balance won't fix that, it will just make the game even less balanced. Not to be insulting but do you even do any testing once you start altering these numbers or do you just blindly change and hope for the best?

Morekai
06-08-15, 09:42
Now I'm not going to go into as much depth as I've seen certain people go into, what with the giant lists and what not, but I'll go ahead and give my input on the implants and what not.

Overall, the changes to implants isn't so bad, with one exception. It seems as though you guys completely forgot about Private Eye's(Or perhaps you just hate them). There is no way to reach a good setup with higher end TL weapons without ripping your con setup to shreds and reducing your overall str/transport(due to new items just to have armor, 1 gun, 2 medkits, healtool and 2 clips of ammo you need 30-35 base transport so you don't get encumbered) so your armor choices are weaker which ends up making you squishier than a spy. The worst part is, you still don't do nearly as much damage as a frikkin spy! The +6 dex PA isn't nearly enough to compensate for how horrible the negatives are on the required implants to use most of the decent guns, and I'm sorry but the Pain Easer and Wyatt Earp just aren't up to par with the others, not to mention why should PE players be stuck to shit tier low TL items? We're already locked out of the upper echelon of weapons and now we're being pushed even further down...


The balance you're aiming for isn't balance at all, I can't think of anything less balanced than making a class completely under par than every other class. I know I've given the NST a lot of flack but there's no reason to punish all PE's just because I main them...


EDIT: To sum it all up, PE's suck with the new patch, we lose too much str/con stats to use a proper armor/con setup(squishier than spy), damage output is awful especially with lower bonuses due to required +dex imps. Why do you hate me?


EDIT 2: There is a reason why rare implants give better bonuses btw. It's because if you take the time to farm them you fucking deserve the better bonus. Don't try to turn this into Communist Neocron. If you feel they shouldn't give better bonuses, then remove them from the rare pool. Put the SF back into CA FSM and the swat to another fsm and the other rare imps to other fsm's because there is absolutely no point in having yet more worthless rares. Already half of the rare pool is complete rubbish ffs. Might I add this horrid attempt at balance won't fix that, it will just make the game even less balanced. Not to be insulting but do you even do any testing once you start altering these numbers or do you just blindly change and hope for the best?

Excuse me, but I don't think anyone is hating PEs. From what i can tell we have three specialized classes - each in their own fields: Tanks= STR/CON, Spies= INT/DEX and Monks INT/PSI. The Private Eye was deliberately designed as a jack-of all trades. He can do everything to a degree, but will never be quite as good as one of the specialized classes. You are being told so as well during character creation. So it is not much of a surprise that a PE can't use a Doom Beamer, Disruptor or other high-end weapons. From what I can tell they are meant to stick to non-rare weaponry - which based on the planned changes are supposed to become more useful because no longer is the highest-TL gun supposed to be the best. This also means that PEs can theoretically squeeze better performance out of lower-TL guns. I don't know about armor, but considering the armor-overhaul in progress I am sure there will be some tweaking to account for the problem you are mentioning.
I do, however, have difficulties believing PEs to be squishier than spies because spies have even less CON than PEs

Aerocytes
06-08-15, 13:48
Excuse me, but I don't think anyone is hating PEs. From what i can tell we have three specialized classes - each in their own fields: Tanks= STR/CON, Spies= INT/DEX and Monks INT/PSI. The Private Eye was deliberately designed as a jack-of all trades. He can do everything to a degree, but will never be quite as good as one of the specialized classes. You are being told so as well during character creation. So it is not much of a surprise that a PE can't use a Doom Beamer, Disruptor or other high-end weapons. From what I can tell they are meant to stick to non-rare weaponry - which based on the planned changes are supposed to become more useful because no longer is the highest-TL gun supposed to be the best. This also means that PEs can theoretically squeeze better performance out of lower-TL guns. I don't know about armor, but considering the armor-overhaul in progress I am sure there will be some tweaking to account for the problem you are mentioning.
I do, however, have difficulties believing PEs to be squishier than spies because spies have even less CON than PEs



Clearly you either don't have much experience with this game or never played a PE much, let me go into a bit of an explanation for you.


Currently, and for longer than I care to remember at this point, PE's have required stacking multiple mc5 implants to get the dex required for any sort of decent gun. Despite the fact that in some cases you can indeed use, say a TL82 plasma rifle, it will NEVER come anywhere close to the damage that a tl100+ rare will dish out. Certainly you can kill people with it, but only if your aim and dance skills outclass theirs massively.

Now on to the jack of all trades things. PE's have to squeeze shit implant builds and sometimes drugs just to use something like say the TL108AK. That's as far as we can go without a completely shit build. Dex is our main stat and thus it should be that we can use the low and mid range rares for said field, not the top obviously, but I'm not sitting here saying I want to use a dissi or FL. We take a sizeable drop in damage compared to spies in exchange for a decent bump in tank, that's how it's been for a while and it's been fine.


The way it is now with the implants on the test server, to reach the proper dex to get a proper weapon you have to stack implants that have some pretty serious detriments to them. They reduce your total str, they reduce your transport(loss in pierce/force resist here because you need more transport just to carry your gear set and a few clips of ammo) and you also end up losing a big chunk of agi and athletics, which is very painful considering the huge minuses you've already incurred in dex(pc/rc), con(you end up with 30-40 MINUS body health WHICH IS HUGE) and you drop str making it so you're stuck using pretty much the exact same armor a spy can.

So as a summary, your str drops which requires you to use the same armor spies do. Your con drops causing you to lose so much body health that if you want to use a heal tool your resists are just in tatters, and depending on the imp setup you go it tears apart your ability to use proper psi setup, and to top it off our dmg is even dropped MASSIVEly from this. Currently on live, by sacrificing agi etc I have 190 p-c and 180 something r-c respectively on my pistol and rifle PE's. On the test server due to implant requirements I'm down to 150pc and 120rc.


Essentially it comes down to this choice. Do you want to do the maximum dmg with a low end weapon, dealing about half the dmg output a spy has, while having a tiny bit more tank than they do, or do you want to try to use a proper weapon, deal a bit more dmg than before but have your stats tore up so bad that your tank is now comparable to a spy and you have much less dmg than they do still.



Also, stick to nonrare weapons? Again, only a TINY bit more tank than a spy and for that we have to swap in over half of our dmg output, which even now is less than a fucking spy? [Edited]





EDIT: monks are fucked too, but I don't really care about that so w/e have fun.

PVPJunkie
06-08-15, 15:12
[Edited]

None the less on this occasion I have to agree with you.

I was going to write a similar post myself, but feel you've already covered off the relevant aspects.

I really hope the Support team take on board the negative but constructive criticism from the community, and rethink this whole "Re-Balance".

It's great to see the time invested from a support/development perspective, but it may be time to take a step back .... look at the time spent on this thus far and the current outcomes.....

Things are being massively overcomplicated...
There are now less viable setups available on the test server which is the opposite of what you are trying to achieve.

There are a lot more pressing issues in the game which are not being addressed please take a serious think about this.


Please, please, please do not kill off the best PVP experience available in an ORPG!!!


Clearly you either don't have much experience with this game or never played a PE much, let me go into a bit of an explanation for you.


Currently, and for longer than I care to remember at this point, PE's have required stacking multiple mc5 implants to get the dex required for any sort of decent gun. Despite the fact that in some cases you can indeed use, say a TL82 plasma rifle, it will NEVER come anywhere close to the damage that a tl100+ rare will dish out. Certainly you can kill people with it, but only if your aim and dance skills outclass theirs massively.

Now on to the jack of all trades things. PE's have to squeeze shit implant builds and sometimes drugs just to use something like say the TL108AK. That's as far as we can go without a completely shit build. Dex is our main stat and thus it should be that we can use the low and mid range rares for said field, not the top obviously, but I'm not sitting here saying I want to use a dissi or FL. We take a sizeable drop in damage compared to spies in exchange for a decent bump in tank, that's how it's been for a while and it's been fine.


The way it is now with the implants on the test server, to reach the proper dex to get a proper weapon you have to stack implants that have some pretty serious detriments to them. They reduce your total str, they reduce your transport(loss in pierce/force resist here because you need more transport just to carry your gear set and a few clips of ammo) and you also end up losing a big chunk of agi and athletics, which is very painful considering the huge minuses you've already incurred in dex(pc/rc), con(you end up with 30-40 MINUS body health WHICH IS HUGE) and you drop str making it so you're stuck using pretty much the exact same armor a spy can.

So as a summary, your str drops which requires you to use the same armor spies do. Your con drops causing you to lose so much body health that if you want to use a heal tool your resists are just in tatters, and depending on the imp setup you go it tears apart your ability to use proper psi setup, and to top it off our dmg is even dropped MASSIVEly from this. Currently on live, by sacrificing agi etc I have 190 p-c and 180 something r-c respectively on my pistol and rifle PE's. On the test server due to implant requirements I'm down to 150pc and 120rc.


Essentially it comes down to this choice. Do you want to do the maximum dmg with a low end weapon, dealing about half the dmg output a spy has, while having a tiny bit more tank than they do, or do you want to try to use a proper weapon, deal a bit more dmg than before but have your stats tore up so bad that your tank is now comparable to a spy and you have much less dmg than they do still.



Also, stick to nonrare weapons? Again, only a TINY bit more tank than a spy and for that we have to swap in over half of our dmg output, which even now is less than a fucking spy? [Edited]






EDIT: monks are fucked too, but I don't really care about that so w/e have fun.

Aerocytes
06-08-15, 16:35
[Edited]

Drachenpaladin
06-08-15, 19:56
[Edited]

Fremen
07-08-15, 08:20
[Edited]

Aerocytes
07-08-15, 14:46
[Edited]

Drachenpaladin
07-08-15, 14:58
[Edited]

Bifrost
07-08-15, 15:21
Right, time to cool down your heads here.

I don't want to see any more flaming here - this is my only warning. Anyone who has posted in this thread, I want you to read the forum rules again (http://www.neocron-game.com/forum-rules).

If you don't agree with any points in this thread, that's fine. Just post a constructive feedback post. Just leave the flames and personal attacks/insults out.

Back to the topic.

Torg
07-08-15, 18:38
i dont really get what you guys are upset about at all. the devs put up a test server, changed the game rules, let us test and comment, while the "real" server remained untouched. i think some of the new game rules & item values are great, while others could use a little tuning. i dont see that anyone destroyed anything, or broke neocron. its just a test server, guys. calm down. maybe we all should say things like "i have the opinion that the new imp values put the PE to disadvantage", or "it appears to me that we should bring the hybrid monk back at least". or whatever.

Fremen
07-08-15, 19:26
At this stage of the re-balance on implant, what can we possibly help polish ?
Is there a post that sum-up the changes that has been done to implants so far ?

Because from what I see the ideas are that:
-MC5 are not "that" much stronger than rare implants
-all commas are removed
-more build variations allowing hybrids apu/ppu
-random negatives effect which are unrelated to the core idea of the implants are removed
-high TL doesn't mean more damage, allowing PE to be more competitive
-high TL doesn't mean more damage, allowing more choices of weaponry for everyone among the rares instead of AK47/BHG9/DISSY being the top weapons

All those ideas are good and I think you already working on this ?

Aerocytes
07-08-15, 20:09
At this stage of the re-balance on implant, what can we possibly help polish ?
Is there a post that sum-up the changes that has been done to implants so far ?

Because from what I see the ideas are that:
-MC5 are not "that" much stronger than rare implants
-all commas are removed
-more build variations allowing hybrids apu/ppu
-random negatives effect which are unrelated to the core idea of the implants are removed
-high TL doesn't mean more damage, allowing PE to be more competitive
-high TL doesn't mean more damage, allowing more choices of weaponry for everyone among the rares instead of AK47/BHG9/DISSY being the top weapons

All those ideas are good and I think you already working on this ?



It's 'reviews' like this that are quite damaging for balance. Before commenting I suggest you copy your neocron game folder to another location, change your server selection on the launcher to test server, and hop on Vedeena for a few moments. Make sure that there is a second copy of your neocron game because when you select the test server it alters the client to the test server patch. Better to spend a minute copying than 30+ reDLing.


In theory the idea's Bragi threw out aren't so bad, but in the implementing of it.... well it's not good right now man. Don't just take my word for it, like I said hop on Vedeena(test server) and check things out. There are vendors with all implants, woc disks, free money etc. You can try any build you want out without worry on it and that way you can fully see what the problems are here and why myself, and others, are quite unhappy with this 'balance'.


Every time Vedeena is updated a friend and I hop on to test builds and duel quite extensively. I'm not just getting upset at the idea of implant changes.

Morekai
08-08-15, 00:06
At this stage of the re-balance on implant, what can we possibly help polish ?
Is there a post that sum-up the changes that has been done to implants so far ?

Because from what I see the ideas are that:
-MC5 are not "that" much stronger than rare implants
-all commas are removed
-more build variations allowing hybrids apu/ppu
-random negatives effect which are unrelated to the core idea of the implants are removed
-high TL doesn't mean more damage, allowing PE to be more competitive
-high TL doesn't mean more damage, allowing more choices of weaponry for everyone among the rares instead of AK47/BHG9/DISSY being the top weapons

All those ideas are good and I think you already working on this ?

These ideas are indeed good and well thought out. Even if the implementation is currently lacking for some classes. Still we should not flush good ideas down the drain merely because of flaring tempers.

Yes, it is true that in my over ten years of playing neocron i never really got around doing a PE. Nor do i do PvP (mostly because it is no fun to me). Hence I can neither confirm nor falsify some of the statements given here about PEs allegedly being inferior to others. But assuming these statements to be correct i am sure the NST is trying to think of ways to make them equally viable - even without rare weapons (which in my perspective they were never supposed to be using anyway due to the comparatively low dex-cap).
my recommendation would be that instead of merely saying "everything about [XYZ] is shit" make suggestions on how to improve it while maintaining the general roles of the classes. For example by increasing the amount of bonus damage gained by weapon skill beyond the required minimum. This way a PE with R-C 120 and a weapon requiring R-C 90 could deal about as much damage as a character who has R-C 130 for a weapon which requires precisely R-C 130.
Basically this means that you are THAT good with a gun you are "familiar" with that you get about the same results as someone with a bigger gun who just unpackaged it.

Aerocytes
08-08-15, 06:02
These ideas are indeed good and well thought out. Even if the implementation is currently lacking for some classes. Still we should not flush good ideas down the drain merely because of flaring tempers.

Yes, it is true that in my over ten years of playing neocron i never really got around doing a PE. Nor do i do PvP (mostly because it is no fun to me). Hence I can neither confirm nor falsify some of the statements given here about PEs allegedly being inferior to others. But assuming these statements to be correct i am sure the NST is trying to think of ways to make them equally viable - even without rare weapons (which in my perspective they were never supposed to be using anyway due to the comparatively low dex-cap).
my recommendation would be that instead of merely saying "everything about [XYZ] is shit" make suggestions on how to improve it while maintaining the general roles of the classes. For example by increasing the amount of bonus damage gained by weapon skill beyond the required minimum. This way a PE with R-C 120 and a weapon requiring R-C 90 could deal about as much damage as a character who has R-C 130 for a weapon which requires precisely R-C 130.
Basically this means that you are THAT good with a gun you are "familiar" with that you get about the same results as someone with a bigger gun who just unpackaged it.



Again speaking without even looking is not a good thing to do. In theory a lot of shit should be a lot of ways. In 'theory' communism is a beautiful concept. It is in practice where everything falls to shit.


As the current 'balance' stands, PE's use lower TL weapons than spies(the other dex based class) and have less dexterity meaning less rifle/pistol combat skill. In short, we currently do less damage, which isn't terrible because we have 20 lvls more of con to use. With the new patch it will push us further down the weapon TL's which will have us dealing even less damage. The other problem with this is to continue using a decent TL weapon you must stack implants that have +dex on them which also have seriouse side effects. (you lose nearly 9 lvls worth of points right off the bat in JUST BODY HEALTH POINTS).


So, to restart WHAT I ALREADY SAID, which for some reason people can't seem bothered to fucking read.

With the new patch PE's lose more dmg(already the lowest dmg output class). With the new patch PE's lose tank(to become about the same tank as a spy).


Before anyone wants to fucking kick up with "the idea is...." Shut the fuck up and GO TO THE TEST SERVER! It's not the fucking idea that matters it's how it's implimented. If you people don't fucking test the patch on Vedeena then the NST won't have any viable feedback to base their changes on and they will release a horrible patch to Titan that will fucking destroy any tiny semblance of balance that's left in this game.



Remember a bit back? How a swat backup pistol or an AK with stack dmg could kill you with 5 stacks? That was because people like you said "hey that's a good idea" but never fucking checked the actual values on Vedeena.




Bragi, ffs please keep in mind over half the people who posted 'feedback' obviously haven't even fucking played on the test server.



EDIT: Morekai your idea is bad btw. So let's say a r-c PE can cap out wep dmg of a tl82 plasma rifle, ok fine. Let's look at a spy now, capping the dmg on a First Love. Does it seem anywhere near fair that the spy can deal over twice the dmg of the PE and the PE only has a handful of points more resist than the spy? That's not balance dude that's still fucking killing PE's. The way they balanced weapons DOES NOT ALLOW FOR THAT. The only way to make your halfbaked idea to work is to go back and redo months worth of patching on weapons. That is not balance. That is not progress. You are not helping.

Aerocytes
09-08-15, 16:18
[Edited - Please report spam post and don't reply to them]

Nidhogg
10-08-15, 11:22
Please keep it civil. Getting irate doesn't help the situation and is ultimately counter-productive. Thanks.

Chuck Norris
19-08-15, 01:31
So I have not played in a while ans was thinking of getting back into it.

But from the looks of it the power divide is growing not shrinking.

Is everything but top tier, imps, armor and weapons pretty much worthless for pvp still?

Love you neocron one <3

Keep hope alive!

gstyle40
19-08-15, 16:55
guess ill have to hop on ts again and clear all this up......hold my calls, dr mace is goin to work!

gstyle40
19-08-15, 22:30
ok, my observations so far. there are alot more things goin on on the test server than just implants, but for the sake of this post i will start with them. Implants are....different. u have the choice of either high dex/str/psi ect or high damage output. this leads to a few different type setups obviously. So on my spy i went with the setup to use the executioner(high dex). In order to do this i had to use a few imps that gave no bonus to weapon damage and in some cases took away from con. i was able to get 195 pc and 181 wep with about 90 tc and 95 agil.

With this setup using the executioner against the mobs in the reactor room it was 50x2. with the baby exey it was 44x2. Shooting my pe with the exey did 60, baby exey 46 all to the head. so a 14 point difference. When i shoot my pistol spy with the baby exey.....55. only 5 less damage from shooting pe with exey. This trend was also followed with the slasher/tl92 and rayguns. all seem to have about 5-10 point diffrence when shooting each other, and 12 when shooting the dummy. Now these numbers are all unbuffed/unshielded. Pe shields are bugged on the test server atm, when u shoot a pe with self cast shields, the damage the pe takes is the same initially, and becomes less as u hit him more(backwards lol)

Other observations I have seen. Con is completely different on the TS, and the caps that we all thought we knew no longer apply. Only caps u know u are hitting is freq(fixed) and aiming because....well u know why. OH and the the judge does about 10x the damage of its baby duplicate, so that one is waaaaay out of wack. Since the negatives on drugs are so steep, there is no point using them for testing, so i didnt.

So in my opinion, (in theory)based off the little sample that i did over the last couple hours. pistol pe v pistol spy with all things considered, the path the devs are going down should balance the classes. If a spy wants to use higher end weapons he has to sacrifice damage percentage, same for a pe. my pistol pe actually has more pc than the pistol spy. with the pe's added con and str it helps mitigate the extra damage done by the high tL pistol making the 1v1 even. the pe actually has the upper hand because he has more health and is faster because of the new no pa underwear and lower tL setup. Walker would like this :D every gun i tested does less damage on the TS than on retail with the exception of the judge.

Please keep in mind that this is all done by myself dual logged and shooting dummies in the reactor room. I will not consider this test done until i have someone else to shoot at :) Thats it for now, ill do more testing with other guns and classes and post results....time permitting

Aerocytes
23-08-15, 13:28
ok, my observations so far. there are alot more things goin on on the test server than just implants, but for the sake of this post i will start with them. Implants are....different. u have the choice of either high dex/str/psi ect or high damage output. this leads to a few different type setups obviously. So on my spy i went with the setup to use the executioner(high dex). In order to do this i had to use a few imps that gave no bonus to weapon damage and in some cases took away from con. i was able to get 195 pc and 181 wep with about 90 tc and 95 agil.

With this setup using the executioner against the mobs in the reactor room it was 50x2. with the baby exey it was 44x2. Shooting my pe with the exey did 60, baby exey 46 all to the head. so a 14 point difference. When i shoot my pistol spy with the baby exey.....55. only 5 less damage from shooting pe with exey. This trend was also followed with the slasher/tl92 and rayguns. all seem to have about 5-10 point diffrence when shooting each other, and 12 when shooting the dummy. Now these numbers are all unbuffed/unshielded. Pe shields are bugged on the test server atm, when u shoot a pe with self cast shields, the damage the pe takes is the same initially, and becomes less as u hit him more(backwards lol)

Other observations I have seen. Con is completely different on the TS, and the caps that we all thought we knew no longer apply. Only caps u know u are hitting is freq(fixed) and aiming because....well u know why. OH and the the judge does about 10x the damage of its baby duplicate, so that one is waaaaay out of wack. Since the negatives on drugs are so steep, there is no point using them for testing, so i didnt.

So in my opinion, (in theory)based off the little sample that i did over the last couple hours. pistol pe v pistol spy with all things considered, the path the devs are going down should balance the classes. If a spy wants to use higher end weapons he has to sacrifice damage percentage, same for a pe. my pistol pe actually has more pc than the pistol spy. with the pe's added con and str it helps mitigate the extra damage done by the high tL pistol making the 1v1 even. the pe actually has the upper hand because he has more health and is faster because of the new no pa underwear and lower tL setup. Walker would like this :D every gun i tested does less damage on the TS than on retail with the exception of the judge.

Please keep in mind that this is all done by myself dual logged and shooting dummies in the reactor room. I will not consider this test done until i have someone else to shoot at :) Thats it for now, ill do more testing with other guns and classes and post results....time permitting


Stop giving false reviews, testing for a little while by yourself doesn't solidify anything. That's how the NST do their testing and it always ends up failing somewhere extremely severely.

Eight hours on the PST with my nohomo soulmate Thunder and you know what? It's fucked. I already explained how it's fucked [Edited]


Between bad patch implimentation that causes the servers to break, the bad patch idea's that if implimented would throw everything to a new level of fucked up and the NST who got butt hurt at my harsh words [Edited]. well I'm done here. It's terribly sad but Neocron is akin to the titanic, it shot up a bit for a while there but that was just because it cracked in half and was in the middle of sinking. I'm going to go find a door to float away on before that bitch Rose comes and steals it.




TL;DR patch is fucked, NST is fucked, community that's left around is fucked. I'm leaving.

LeoPump
23-08-15, 13:30
TL;DR patch is fucked, NST is fucked, community that's left around is fucked. I'm leaving.

Bye.

Drachenpaladin
23-08-15, 16:30
TL;DR patch is fucked, NST is fucked, community that's left around is fucked. I'm leaving.

I hope the door hits you on your way out. :angel:

Ryan Steiner
23-08-15, 19:13
TL;DR patch is fucked, NST is fucked, community that's left around is fucked. I'm leaving.

Finally !

gstyle40
24-08-15, 05:14
Stop giving false reviews, testing for a little while by yourself doesn't solidify anything. That's how the NST do their testing and it always ends up failing somewhere extremely severely.

Eight hours on the PST with my nohomo soulmate Thunder and you know what? It's fucked. I already explained how it's fucked [Edited]


Between bad patch implimentation that causes the servers to break, the bad patch idea's that if implimented would throw everything to a new level of fucked up and the NST who got butt hurt at my harsh words [Edited]. well I'm done here. It's terribly sad but Neocron is akin to the titanic, it shot up a bit for a while there but that was just because it cracked in half and was in the middle of sinking. I'm going to go find a door to float away on before that bitch Rose comes and steals it.




TL;DR patch is fucked, NST is fucked, community that's left around is fucked. I'm leaving.

lol u wanted people to test, i test and u say i didnt do it right? I posted my results and gave my opinion and why. You have no interest in this game, nor the improvement of it. You are nothing but a troll on the forums and in game and will never be anything more (search leonard nimoy). I would normally say to someone like u not to let the door knob hit ya where the good lord split ya.....but in your case, i hope it does. Have a nice life.....not really.

William Antrim
28-08-15, 18:06
Seems pretty legit to me. Mace did some accurate tests. Anecdotal sure thing absolutely but he included a caveat to the above.

Aerocytes/brawndo (braindead?) isnt this the third time you've "left" in as many months. I have heard you around here spouting off about how you used to play in nc1 but i know for a fact that you only started playing when I was last playing, middle of last year. I know this because of how you whined about it in the chat on so many occasions.

For the above stated reason I find it difficult to believe anything you are saying and have to take you with a pinch of salt generally (sometimes a handful). Mace on the other hand does actually know his stuff and has posted some great points on the subject. Whilst he and I may not always see eye to eye on many things I can still read his posts and think to myself, this guy has a clue.

With you I cannot.

The recent ramblings have done nothing but clog up this forum and make it painful to read so yes, please, if you are going to leave then get on with it so I can get back to reading interesting stuff and not drivel.

Drachenpaladin
28-08-15, 18:14
We really need a more visiible indicator for talking to banned users I think^^

Unless this is a soliloquy...

William Antrim
29-08-15, 16:00
I didnt realise theyd banned him tbh. Oh well. Honesty is one thing, criticism another. I know I speak my mind on occasion but being downright offensive and generally full of it is another entirely.

Chuck Norris
20-10-15, 09:34
wtb

DoY Bloodlust Kamikaze Chip
Tech Level: 60
Item class: Legacy-implants
Weight: 0.10
Requirements: DEX:60 P‑C:90
Modifers: WEP:+30.00 ATL:+15.00 P‑C:+40.00 T‑C:+15.00 AGL:+15.00
INT:-30.00 ENR:-100.00
Item status:
This item is no longer available ingame.
This item is dropped from a mob.
This item is a legacy Neocron 1 item.
Item updated: 22 Apr 2007 (Item added: 28 Oct 2006)


THN Items Database - Version 1.5.11

http://www.techhaven.org/db/showitem/678.html