View Full Version : Love Affair with a CityCom Term and GoGuardian
Since I came back to the game I've been following a progression with whatever characters I've made. At certain point and after doing the quad quest I go north by northwest tagging genreps till I get to mil base.
I do that cause that's what I remembered doing way back when. Get to the mil base where you go out to the bunker & do launchers. Every time & on every character when I got there the place was dead. Maybe an occasional spy sniping launchers from a distance but no no action, no teams.
I think Friday eve after we knew it was double xp Zoltan breezed through and deposited a citycom term & a go-guardian outside. I was there when he did it.
After that the bunker came back to life like it used to be. There would be 2 teams going at the same time, we'd be slaughtering everything so fast that there'd be a min or 2 wait time before stuff started re-spawning. It was a glorious pandemonium.
It was hands down one of the smartest things done in the game. Late last night 2/3 of the server population was there. You had a Citycom term to grab missions, goguardian outside for your stuff. It was perfect.
Today appx 5pm edt they suddenly disappeared. Why? who cares about the double xp. An otherwise mostly dead location in the game was revitalized.
So why not put them back? Why this unspoken mission of always making things hard as possible on players, is it really working out ?
So Zoltan, please. Throw a dog a bone. Put them back & lets keep some life up there
In the next patch (main patch, should we do a hot fix), a permanent GoGu and CityCom will be placed in the entrance to Military Base, a short walk across the zone. This has been the case in our dev environment for quite some time but balance took priority patch-wise. The patch will also include several quality of life changes to MB SEC-1.
Well there's already a citycom & go guardian just inside the first zone of the mb.
When Zoltan dropped them off I was just happy for the go guardian and then it clicked about the citycom, missions.
If a team is rocking and members are taking the kill launcher cyclops mission that can be done pretty quick.
So then of a 5 member team 3 have to go running off to the mb and stand around cycling through missions till they get cyclops missions again which could take a while.
As it is now no one goes running off to use the one just inside the mb.
Please don't keep erring on the side of "we must make things harder". The game should have more people on it at night then someones self hosted counter strike server
Please don't keep erring on the side of "we must make things harder". The game should have more people on it at night then someones self hosted counter strike server
I second that direct comment, and your other thoughts on this thread. Counter arguments to arise from those who don't have to suffer through the depressive ghost town that is the reality of this server and game every night. Or Torg who wants to reduce the XP gain to 1 xp per RL day so no one can ever actually cap a character in their lifetime.
So say we added those fixtures permanently? It would be expected to have those at every single leveling location. To me, that is madness, that's not even a game.
Madness how ?
This is a service industry. I understand that the game is free but a game is created in the hopes it draws a customer base and the hard work of the developers is rewarded.
Do struggling musicians want to stay poor forever or do they hope that get thet one hit song that pays off after so many hard years.
It not like it's a physical job either, logon, breeze thru. a lil click here, a lil click there and presto, a dead area rejuvenated.
And places people level that don't have those facilities, what are we talking about, 5 at most?
The underground place with the snakes, nothing down there mission-able so how about a go-guardian, el farid has it & a genrep.
This game had thousands of paying customers and at night if lucky there are 20, all free players.
The stoic approach that we must make all things hard & rarely change is like ebola, bleeding players away over the years
The stoic approach that we must make all things hard & rarely change is like ebola, bleeding players away over the yearsso you believe pushing ppl into mission grinding will bring back thousands? really? did you check the changes that happened in the recent 2 years, and did you think about why and how? unlikely. either.
Here's an example of what I mean, Yakarma. Yakarma were shops and they were all over the city and they sold psi equipment. The audio ads for them still play. All their old locations seem to be filled with "pottery and flowers" , reused as something else or boarded up. The first monk I made after return I looked in all the usual places for a yakarma to buy new spells till I found out i could only go to one place all the way at the end of pp3. Why? why make it harder
Tech Haven, all fallen angels started there, now I start in a reused doy apartment in some offshoot of the outzone subway station. A gorgeous piece of architecture is wasted now, getting the occasional visitor to tag the genrep.
I saw you added the part of "it's not even a game" but what is it now ? Sewers>mutant pool>mil base>el farid and or regants. All to level up a character in days to kill more warbots to get more tech rares to pvp in pp1 or just keep killing warbots for rares and building or selling them.
I had mentioned early on that I'd re-upped 3 anarchy online accts, I started the first one while NC was still in beta, out of 8 slots I do not have 1 character thats capped. I could have capped a character this past weekend if I'd played it exclusivity. Where's the game in that?
Torg, i didn't say mission grinding. What is mission grinding anyway? "WTB TL150 BP's for TSU" thats gaming ? I did missions of my own, sewer rats etc as noob character but with the citycom at the bunker i was able to go from the 75symp I already have to 90 so i could access the fsm, that's not grinding. Once i reach 90 whats the purpose or more mission? unless to simply circumvent the game and buy the cubes to cap my character. 2 years ago or when martin & 10t handed over NC were there more people then or now. Because prime euro time I'm seeing 7%, that's 70 people and at one 1am my time I've seen it at zero'
If only there were a gordon ransays for games
Anyway, whatever i say Is probably moot.
I think there should be a GoGo at the outpost, but not a citycom.
With that said, how about you guys focus on one thing at a time until the game is ready.
Defense(PVP/PVE)->Offense(PVP/PVE)->Map
Large sweeping fixes will aid the game. Small incremental all over won't really do shit as far as keeping people here or bringing in new people.
Then put the bitch on steam.
PVE should only be a small hazing before someone can PVP. PVE time is tutorial time, the game centers around PVP.
A lot of these players have been playing longer than most of the fucking dev team. Yet, you ignore them.
So say we added those fixtures permanently? It would be expected to have those at every single leveling location. To me, that is madness, that's not even a game.
This is only as slippery of a slope as you make it.
You know what is madness to me? Running all the way across j01 after you kill 5 launchers simply for the mission XP
It encourages people to do mindnumbing things like start a character with TL150 cubes. What you seem to look at as valuable content and time spent is instead taken by players as a waste of their time. Because it is.
I live in the year 2014, currently, which I assume everyone else here can also mostly agree to.
Here in 2014, where we don't have a computer implanted into our head with a sleek rpos, nor teleportation, nor technical sophistication high enough that we can digitize our bodies and enter a physical network to fight evil icmp packets.
We DO have cell phones, and I can browse the internet from wherever I stand. It could stand to reason that something like Citycom would be available from pretty much wherever you please.
Torg,
You're smarter than your suppositions. You're not better than them, just smarter.
MayhemMichael
13-08-14, 03:10
so you believe pushing ppl into mission grinding will bring back thousands? really? did you check the changes that happened in the recent 2 years, and did you think about why and how? unlikely. either.
Most people that play this game are coming back for the nostalgia. They are in their 30's or older. People enjoyed team leveling at the bunker on cyclopes but their time is limited to play any game. Having a city com/gogu cut down on time wasted and more enjoyment. If you think it takes away the game, that's fine. Having it not there seems to take away people from the game. Just an observation the OP made. The past we have done he opposite of what keeps people playing. Why not change it? It's a free game with the population of 100 at peak times. Still blows my mind why they don't let private servers pop up and let other people to work on the code and fixing the simple things.
Torg, i didn't say...heywood, please dont get me wrong. i'm glad you found your way back to NC, and also that youre having fun at the MB bunker, like in the old days. unfortunately the old days are over. why?
because KK (or its late mother company 10Tacle) went bankrupt after changing he game ("NC 2") to suit lots of players in a more red-vs-blue-oriented setting. so the game existed in a netherlife for years. undead.
a lot of these changes are still present and we all want some of these changes recalled, but its a challenge of sorts to alter anything in NC without breaking another. we all experienced that in the past, and also with the present patch. Neocron has a dark, sinister heart. A monster, feeding on our very souls.
in other related news: i brought up quite a few chars without ever visiting the MB, or El Farid, or the graves, or the aggie cellars. quite entertaining. getting FSM fac symp level isnt a chore either, just do your factions epic run. and please dont be sad if others arent following your ideas. you know, NC is really a vast world, and there is no single way to "make it right". this can only be achieved by lots and lots of work, and very careful balancing. at least in my opinion.
Here's an example of what I mean, Yakarma. Yakarma were shops and they were all over the city and they sold psi equipment. The audio ads for them still play. All their old locations seem to be filled with "pottery and flowers" , reused as something else or boarded up. The first monk I made after return I looked in all the usual places for a yakarma to buy new spells till I found out i could only go to one place all the way at the end of pp3. Why? why make it harder
Tech Haven, all fallen angels started there, now I start in a reused doy apartment in some offshoot of the outzone subway station. A gorgeous piece of architecture is wasted now, getting the occasional visitor to tag the genrep.
.
Yea the old shop layout was heaps, heaps better.
I dont think there should be gogo and citycom at the bunker though, i did like the fact that they placed them at the top of the MB base though instead of having to run all the way down, that was a great move, abit of a run, but not annoying.
[QUOTE=Divide;2228136
We DO have cell phones, and I can browse the internet from wherever I stand. It could stand to reason that something like Citycom would be available from pretty much wherever you please.
Torg,
You're smarter than your suppositions. You're not better than them, just smarter.[/QUOTE]
I really like how Eve handles it. You've got a FE that allows you to do pretty much everything from whereever you are, even shell an Internet window while your playing. Having access to Citycom in every place not affected by post nuke EMP or extreme radiation (hint!) seems like a given no?
It would be cool to be able to hit a button that brings up a holographic (see through) version of the Citycom. Eventually, hopefully, we will be able to access maps and an improved (when in the outlands) marker/waypoint system via this personal communication device.
So say we added those fixtures permanently? It would be expected to have those at every single leveling location. To me, that is madness, that's not even a game.
Completely agree with you here. Why not just give everyone a portable citycom and gogu? then we can access everything everwhere..
Drachenpaladin
13-08-14, 15:51
Completely agree with you here. Why not just give everyone a portable citycom and gogu? then we can access everything everwhere..
I kinda could swing along with the portable citycom... but quantum pockets... i know we practically already have a hyperspace arsenal in the inventory... but really, portable/remote access Gogu is kinda over the top and makes weight and transport superfluous. I guess thats what some people want but thats not a good idea.
I kinda could swing along with the portable citycom... but quantum pockets... i know we practically already have a hyperspace arsenal in the inventory... but really, portable/remote access Gogu is kinda over the top and makes weight and transport superfluous. I guess thats what some people want but thats not a good idea.
I agree i dont think its a good Idea to have a citycom you just use anywhere i think they should just be in Citys and Outposts and that's it.
I suppose I should of put :rolleyes: at the end of my last post.
Drachenpaladin
13-08-14, 18:04
I agree i dont think its a good Idea to have a citycom you just use anywhere i think they should just be in Citys and Outposts and that's it.
Thanks for the support but you realize i'm not against portable Citycoms, only Gogus, rite?^^
Thanks for the support but you realize i'm not against portable Citycoms, only Gogus, rite?^^
Yeah :)
Portable Gogos maybe good for tradeskillers if you made it so you needed over 100 in one of the tradeskills Conster/Research/Barter to be able to use it
But for the everyday fighter no need
Damn lazy guys! ;) Next time you wanna have a portable trader, ammo refresher, auto repair...
Unbelievable!
damn lazy guys! ;) next time you wanna have a portable trader, ammo refresher, auto repair...
Unbelievable!
auto poker!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Damn lazy guys! ;)
I know it's a joke, but seriously this comment coming out after it is voiced that players feel that you are purposely wasting their time for an arbitrary reason just feels like yet another piece of evidence to point to and say you don't read what people say -- you do what you want because, fuck the users, they mooch the game for free and do nothing but complain.
We complain because there are reasons to complain. We post because there are reasons to post. We tell you the dev is way too powerful for several weeks prior to a patch and it STILL PATCHES IN. Don't pretend you want our input when you don't. We won't be let down when the obvious lack of concern for player input from your team continues if we aren't lead to believe that it could matter in the first place.
Drachenpaladin
14-08-14, 18:17
- RARBL! -
Do you even emote?
Do you even emote?
:angel:
Drachenpaladin
14-08-14, 18:27
So yeah, they want feedback, but what some people deliver here doesn't always seem that useful you know.
So yeah, they want feedback, but what some people deliver here doesn't always seem that useful you know.
I can read what you are saying and comprehend the words. Problem is, I can't then take the point and apply it to past experiences with feedback loops in this game. They ask for balance testing, the community obliges and provides significant feedback about a number of items and class roles. Then, r186.
If they are going to pick and choose more, just go closed testing instead of making others feel as if their time spent matters. That's really what my whole bitch is all about. My time matters. Running from the north end of J01 to MB simply to right-click once, left click 5 to however many tries it takes to get my mission, is a waste of my time and I refuse to do it. This stubborn scenario (both sides implicated, obviously) is exactly why people do mind-numbing things like turn in stacks of TL150 cubes and rep rhinos instead of actually leveling.
/edit:
I will chase a PK target through zones until they lose me, or I term them. I will run for long periods as long as what I am running for is something that motivates me.
Motivate players to do things that they find fun, don't force them to do things that are a complete waste of time.
Drachenpaladin
14-08-14, 19:12
This stubborn scenario (both sides implicated, obviously) is exactly why people do mind-numbing things like turn in stacks of TL150 cubes and rep rhinos instead of actually leveling.
To be honest, they don't do it because its less mind-numbing, because it actually isn't, its simply quicker to turn in stacks of cubes AT ALL. I think even with a portable CityCom this mission would still quicker cap a char than hunting mobs. And the Rhino thing is mostly relevant for monks and PEs to level Dex since there is hardly any option for that class at all...
Lets face it, your rant isn't about the matter at hand, its really only about the balancing and whatever disappointment with it you feel.
To be honest, they don't do it because its less mind-numbing, because it actually isn't, its simply quicker to turn in stacks of cubes AT ALL. I think even with a portable CityCom this mission would still quicker cap a char than hunting mobs. And the Rhino thing is mostly relevant for monks and PEs to level Dex since there is hardly any option for that class at all...
Lets face it, your rant isn't about the matter at hand, its really only about the balancing and whatever disappointment with it you feel.
Actually, if you would ask my group you would find that I am one of the least dismayed with r186. I believe Alduin has great intent and an appetite to continue improving just as he has proven all along.
Your opening statement is a bit confusing...
My rant isn't about the matter-at-hand, you are right. It is entirely focused on the fact that time is valuable and I hate when people don't grasp when they create a time wasting event for others. Furthermore, it is infuriating to have them continue to assert that something is not a waste of time when there is really no logical way you can come to that conclusion.
I hate 150 cubes. I like playing the game. I hate repping rhinos. I like playing the game.
I do both 150's and rhino repping on any new character to avoid the complete and utter timesink that is running back and forth to a citycom.
My argument is that turning in 150's is mindnumbing, and so is repping a rhino. If mission xp wasn't a burden to obtain, there is a high likelihood that leveling methods will change which could actually help this game. No vet player starts in the sewers. Plenty of new players do. And guess who is down there with them? No one. Everyone is doing 150's or rhinos instead.
To continue to the root of my argument:
Please don't waste my time while telling me you are not. You aren't stupid, and I'm not a pushover.
Drachenpaladin
14-08-14, 21:21
My opening statement was telling you that slapping Cyclops' at the bunker for hours on end isn't any less mind-numbing then turning in stacks of cubes or rep Rhinos. Its pretty much on par in my book. Whether you return in between or not.
Actually, i think it makes more sense to cut the mission at that point anyways and just kill things to cap the combat skills. The other skills come along when doing Regants with teams etc.
At any rate, I guess the hole debate is pointless anyway. PVE is going to get its luv by the devs at some point, i'm sure, so me might continue to bash heads about that if the time is then. But at this point there wont be any changes anyway...
Part 1 of 2. I beat the characters per post limit! This has turned into some what of a novel. I advise you get a cup of tea before starting. I do hope it clears a lot of things up and more appropriately invites conversation on others.
I had intended to come back to this much sooner, I feel some of this could have been addressed in discussion. Granted, I could have worded my post better as it was mainly to see some justification/arguments for those things. Not condemn an opinion.
Well there's already a citycom & go guardian just inside the first zone of the mb.
There is but they're GM spawned and are liable to wander off on occasion. We're putting in "real" versions in the next patch to essentially commit that change.
When Zoltan dropped them off I was just happy for the go guardian and then it clicked about the citycom, missions.
If a team is rocking and members are taking the kill launcher cyclops mission that can be done pretty quick.
So then of a 5 member team 3 have to go running off to the mb and stand around cycling through missions till they get cyclops missions again which could take a while.
As it is now no one goes running off to use the one just inside the mb.
As a veteran of the MB Bunker (like most long time players), I see missions vs grinding as a trade off. I think (someone criticised us for this, but i will stress this is my opinion*) that those trade offs are important, to balance the system and to cater for different styles of play.
You can head back to MB to fetch a new mission or you can just kill the mobs over and over again. If you chose to head back and forth, your travel time is compensated with the XP reward from the mission. If you chose to stay and grind, you receive a steady stream of XP. To me that sounds like two sides of the same coin that should be allowed to exist. If you get bored killing mobs, you can go for a work and not be penalised for doing so. If you don't like traveling back and forth you can camp the location and just grind down waves of mobs. To me this is a choice of playing style and a point of variation in the game.
My preferred method is to head back into MB to drop off junk, pick up ammo from my gogu (and do some recycling while I'm there) and collect a new mission. Then I head back out to the field with a clear inventory, plenty of ammo and a new objective until I am again too heavy to move. Since we took over and added the MBE GoGu/CityCom the travel time involved in that is reduced by about two thirds. Although, that is certainly my preferred play style within the design decisions of the original game, I appreciate that is not everyone's cup of tea. After all, it is a choice of playing style.
As we're yet to look into mission reward XP or even CityCom missions in any real detail, there is likely a lot of things that need re-balancing within that framework. At the moment it is abundantly clear that in a lot of circumstances, CityCom missions are pointless. They provide no benefit to the person completing them outside of FS/SL farming.
For example the mission reward XP - (5* kill XP) + Reward - may be (in many cases is) significantly less than XP gained from grinding instead of traveling - (5* kill XP) + (n* kill XP) - it should be the case that the mission route gets you a bit more XP than grinding. This is certainly the case in most (if not all) other MMOs but our situation differs due to the repeatable nature of quick jobs. In those other MMOs you generally have two or three NPC driven quests *shudder*, i mean missions, that require you to kill a certain group of mobs. Regardless of that, you should be able to bring up a character on missions, if you choose to do that instead of grind.
No one currently goes running off to the new, much closer, CityCom and GoGu as it's not worth doing. The better the missions are, we can effectively (we won't though!) move the CityCom further away. This is the same in every game in the RPG genre.
I imagine we'll do a lot of number crunching and rework many of the available CityCom missions. Both in terms of number of mobs to kill and the reward XP given. Increasing the number of mobs immediately increases the viability of missions, it also reduces travel times and makes them worth doing. Whether they're worth it, seems to be the major argument here.
Reward XP certainly needs to be upped, those values have probably not been touched in the last decade. It's annoying, I know it is, there is a stupidly long list of things we need to fix. That's one of them.
Please don't keep erring on the side of "we must make things harder". The game should have more people on it at night then someones self hosted counter strike server
We're really not. Why would we do that? The entire team is made up of people who love the game, who want the game to meet it's, quite frankly, limitless potential. We're trying to bring in improvements to quality of life all the time. We're also trying to improve many many things.
The fact of the matter is we have an entire aircraft hanger full of plates we need to keep spinning. As you've undoubtedly noticed we have to keep picking some of them up and putting them back on the stick, as we have to focus on some things more than others at times. Now this bit is getting off topic but our priority list is pulled in every direction every day. Unfortunately we cannot make everyone happy on the same day, as we cannot ever dream to make everyone happy. We still have an absolute fuck load of things to do.
While that is off topic, it's relevant as making missions worth doing is still one of those things we've still go to do. We know they're broken and they suck and they're not worth doing. If it was worth it and therefore not a waste of your time, this would likely be a moot issue.
I second that direct comment, and your other thoughts on this thread. Counter arguments to arise from those who don't have to suffer through the depressive ghost town that is the reality of this server and game every night. Or Torg who wants to reduce the XP gain to 1 xp per RL day so no one can ever actually cap a character in their lifetime.
I hope I've covered some of this in the above. I can certainly appreciate your points. I've leveled my rifle spy (incredibly slowly, I feel guilty playing the game for fun instead of working on it) more or less totally alone in OZ 3 for much of his low to mid level existence. It's dull as hell staying locked up in that storage on my own. I'd much rather do at least some wandering to a CityCom to pick up a mission. However those missions just aren't worth doing, staring at the same four walls has more worth - grinding instead of missions. I know 'the struggle is real'.
Madness how ?
Madness to me. Hopefully the above shines light on that. Play choices, mission worth, reward adjustments, trade offs, balance between styles. Those things are important to how the game plays. I'd rather fix those things properly, increase their worth, than put in a half arsed fix.
This is a service industry. I understand that the game is free but a game is created in the hopes it draws a customer base and the hard work of the developers is rewarded.
If we didn't hope to draw in more players, if we didn't want the game to be as successful as everyone playing it, we wouldn't spend most of our free time effectively working a second job where the main payment is abuse. If we didn't believe in the potential of the product, we'd have all fucked off long ago. We're working toward this potential. If we were making a new product, for today's audience, a lot of what exists wouldn't by the time players turn up. We're a 'new' team working on an - very! - old product. Seeing at least some people enjoying it keeps us going. We still have a lot to do to fix a lot of issues. We know those issues exist as we've also played the game for many years.
Do struggling musicians want to stay poor forever or do they hope that get thet one hit song that pays off after so many hard years.
We're still working on the hit song. Unfortunately it's taking much longer than we hoped.
It not like it's a physical job either, logon, breeze thru. a lil click here, a lil click there and presto, a dead area rejuvenated.
There are roughly a million of these lil clicks here and lil clicks there that we need to do. I refer back to the above, i'd love to make everyone happy on the same day. This thread however, obviously brings one of those million things to the surface. Which is why hearing opinions is very valuable. This is how our priorities are continuously pulled in every direction.
And places people level that don't have those facilities, what are we talking about, 5 at most?
The underground place with the snakes, nothing down there mission-able so how about a go-guardian, el farid has it & a genrep.
I guess the point here is that we need to make more leveling places worth while. We know there's a bunch of gameworld which just doesn't get used. Yes some of the facility provisioning (GRs, GoGus, CityComs, ASGs, etc) needs improving around some dungeons. Viability and balance of a lot of places needs fixing too. Another hand full of changes to the list.
This game had thousands of paying customers and at night if lucky there are 20, all free players.
Stagnation has a lot to do with this too. We've so much to fix, mend and make worthwhile that we've not been able to add much yet. New stuff is very important for folk who've played the game over and over and over again but the broken stuff is just as important for entirely new people. There's a balance to strike there.
The stoic approach that we must make all things hard & rarely change is like ebola, bleeding players away over the years
Over the years suggests you're talking about changes made by the previous development team. We're moving as quickly as we can to change things. We're certainly not going out of our way to make things harder but I accept that some things are annoying due to the pace at which we can change them. There's not that many of us and those there are don't always have as much time as we'd all like. I'd love some help (http://www.neocron-game.com/jobs).
Here's an example of what I mean, Yakarma. Yakarma were shops and they were all over the city and they sold psi equipment. The audio ads for them still play. All their old locations seem to be filled with "pottery and flowers" , reused as something else or boarded up. The first monk I made after return I looked in all the usual places for a yakarma to buy new spells till I found out i could only go to one place all the way at the end of pp3. Why? why make it harder
Yup. That's a personal bug bear. It's a legacy issue we will fix. There are a lot of issues with the layout of items, that's a bit of a hangover from when the Dome was abandoned.
Tech Haven, all fallen angels started there, now I start in a reused doy apartment in some offshoot of the outzone subway station. A gorgeous piece of architecture is wasted now, getting the occasional visitor to tag the genrep.
Another personal bug bear. This was also the case for Twilight Guardian. They're now back to their roots with many things made much easier for new TG characters. There is still a lot of work to do there too.
I saw you added the part of "it's not even a game" but what is it now ? Sewers>mutant pool>mil base>el farid and or regants. All to level up a character in days to kill more warbots to get more tech rares to pvp in pp1 or just keep killing warbots for rares and building or selling them.
I despise the existing leveling treadmill. I want it to change. I want choice. I want more leveling routes to be worth while. I'd love some help (http://www.neocron-game.com/jobs).
I had mentioned early on that I'd re-upped 3 anarchy online accts, I started the first one while NC was still in beta, out of 8 slots I do not have 1 character thats capped. I could have capped a character this past weekend if I'd played it exclusivity. Where's the game in that?
You're in the visible/vocal minority that believes getting to cap in a weekend removes a lot of core aspects of the game. I'm one of the same minority. We've a shit load to do to make playing Neocron an enjoyable thing for returning and new players. We certainly need to break the current treadmill but we have to pull people away from it with better alternatives, rather than just throw in some roadblocks to push people off it.
Once i reach 90 whats the purpose or more mission?
Very little, unless you lose sympathy. It needs fixing.
Anyway, whatever i say Is probably moot.
Not at all. A lot of it is already on our seemingly infinite list of things to do. I hope I'm giving insight with this, I do not intend to silence, ignore, brush over or moot any points. I want people to understand that a lot of the issues players talk about every day, are things I think about all the time. We're slowly chipping away at that list and we'd love some help (http://www.neocron-game.com/jobs).
I think there should be a GoGo at the outpost, but not a citycom.
I assume the GoGu aspect of this is for junk, ammo and other such things. Based on ASG locations elsewhere in the world, I think it would be reasonable to station a GoGu at the MB ASG? I feel that would make more thematic sense than in the bunker which is a location lost to and over ran by the mutants. It makes sense (I feel that's important in terms of gameworld quality) and it's a stones throw away.
With that said, how about you guys focus on one thing at a time until the game is ready.
Defense(PVP/PVE)->Offense(PVP/PVE)->Map
Yes and no. I can guarantee you wouldn't want me or some of our art team anywhere near the balance numbers. We certainly have priorities on delivery (and PvP is the top one currently) but there is an element of horses for courses at play. That being said, so we can increase output of our priorities and in general, we would love some help (http://www.neocron-game.com/jobs) from those with the right skills, knowledge and drive to see changes through.
PVE should only be a small hazing before someone can PVP. PVE time is tutorial time, the game centers around PVP.To some yes, to others no. I love the gameworld, the atmosphere and the setting but that's why I work on the gameworld and not PvP. This comes back to play styles and player choices I mention above, we should cater for as many tastes as possible within the setting and genre of the game. The "who is Neocron for" and "what is the main point of Neocron" is a debate we cannot finish.
A lot of these players have been playing longer than most of the fucking dev team. Yet, you ignore them.Some yes, others no. While you see a lot of "recent" accounts of members of the NST, probably about two thirds have played since Neocron 1 beta/launch on-wards and the rest from Neocron 2 beta/launch on-wards.
We really do read a tremendous amount of feedback and a lot of that helps us shape the things we do. This thread for example, brings up a lot of good points. Points I hope I've addressed with my thoughts and points i hope we can discuss further, in order to end up with a suitable solution or an understanding of how we may differently improve that situation.
I hope I've explained above how we have to weigh up a lot of the feedback, we cannot bend to all whims, we cannot make everyone happy but we certainly want Neocron to be better. To reach it's potential. Feedback steers us to making stuff better, we get some of it wrong, we read the feedback on that and we move in a different direction. Occasionally we just make mistakes, we're not intentionally being ignorant. More on that in a pending statement.
This is only as slippery of a slope as you make it.
You know what is madness to me? Running all the way across j01 after you kill 5 launchers simply for the mission XP
It encourages people to do mindnumbing things like start a character with TL150 cubes. What you seem to look at as valuable content and time spent is instead taken by players as a waste of their time. Because it is.
I hope the above explains my thoughts on the issue. I hope it also highlights the different ways we can address this particular issue as well as encourages further discussion. I hope it also explains that I get it and that I want to make that content a worthwhile investment of time.
I live in the year 2014, currently, which I assume everyone else here can also mostly agree to.
Here in 2014, where we don't have a computer implanted into our head with a sleek rpos, nor teleportation, nor technical sophistication high enough that we can digitize our bodies and enter a physical network to fight evil icmp packets.
We DO have cell phones, and I can browse the internet from wherever I stand. It could stand to reason that something like Citycom would be available from pretty much wherever you please.
I live in 2014 too. Our game fundamentally lives in 2002. In 2002 I could ring people, play snake and perform the theme tune of EastEnders (http://friendsite.com/order_country/content_code-10448_free-Eastenders+Polyphonic+Ringtone.html) on the key pad (i've been writing for a while, I needed a distraction :P). Playing some other, newer, games it does frustrate me that i cannot do certain things anywhere in the game world, like email, player look ups and guild *shudder* management. In those, I can't take missions when I'm stood in front of the mission targets either though. The difference is, their missions are worth doing.
The CityCom is quite an integral part of Neocron's original design from back in the day. I think it's worth bringing that up in a separate Brainport thread. So it can be properly and independently discussed. I think it's a different issue compared to having a worthwhile experience, or a fair use of time, when completing aspects of the game.
Part 2 of 2.
Most people that play this game are coming back for the nostalgia. They are in their 30's or older. People enjoyed team leveling at the bunker on cyclopes but their time is limited to play any game. Having a city com/gogu cut down on time wasted and more enjoyment. If you think it takes away the game, that's fine. Having it not there seems to take away people from the game. Just an observation the OP made. The past we have done he opposite of what keeps people playing. Why not change it? It's a free game with the population of 100 at peak times.
I do totally see that side of the argument. I hope what I've said above explains my own thoughts on tackling it. I'm hoping the discussion will continue from there.
let other people to work on the code and fixing the simple things
We'd love some help (http://www.neocron-game.com/jobs).
Yea the old shop layout was heaps, heaps better.
Yup. I think this too would be worth a Brainport thread. To try and fix the most annoying bits in some way as soon as we can. The whole system does need an overhaul though and that will be a project in it's own right.
I dont think there should be gogo and citycom at the bunker though, i did like the fact that they placed them at the top of the MB base though instead of having to run all the way down, that was a great move, abit of a run, but not annoying.
It would seem you share a play style with me! What are your thoughts on how worthwhile the missions are, even at that kind of range?
I know it's a joke, but seriously this comment coming out after it is voiced that players feel that you are purposely wasting their time for an arbitrary reason just feels like yet another piece of evidence to point to and say you don't read what people say -- you do what you want because, fuck the users, they mooch the game for free and do nothing but complain.
I hope I've outlined some points for this above, in response to Model192's post. I know there is specifically one point that has fucked a lot of people off. We did not purposely ignore anyone on that point, what we did do though, was make a mistake. We value every piece of constructive feedback we receive and we do a lot of reading of that feedback. More on that too, is above. More information regarding certain things will be released in a pending statement. I ask that you place any further responses to that in existing locations or in response to that statement when it lands.
We complain because there are reasons to complain. We post because there are reasons to post. We tell you the dev is way too powerful for several weeks prior to a patch and it STILL PATCHES IN. Don't pretend you want our input when you don't. We won't be let down when the obvious lack of concern for player input from your team continues if we aren't lead to believe that it could matter in the first place.
It matters. We read it. That issue, we fucked up. Hands up. Mistake made. We've since temporarily put a band-aid over that fuck up and we're (when i say we i mean the balance people) doing plenty of work on now (based on new and pre-existing feedback) to correctly address. We will address it correctly as soon as we can. One that has certainly been made (http://forum.neocron-game.com/showthread.php?155724-R-186-R-188-Patch-Discussion-and-Feedback&p=2227878&viewfull=1#post2227878) worse (http://forum.neocron-game.com/showthread.php?155724-R-186-R-188-Patch-Discussion-and-Feedback&p=2227883&viewfull=1#post2227883) by unforeseen issues pushing us backwards and preventing us making those changes sooner.
More in that pending statement. Again, if we can keep that particular element of the discussion to existing or upcoming locations.
Plenty of what we've done in the past (and in some cases stopped doing) has been based on player feedback. I hope this also addresses the rest of your post.
Motivate players to do things that they find fun, don't force them to do things that are a complete waste of time.
Exactly this. Missions should be fun. Taking missions should be less of a pain in the arse (I hope we short term made that a little more bearable with the change to 6 missions per load). The words "waste of time" are important, if your time is not wasted, and instead alternatively rewarded (see above, play styles, choices, balanced between), it becomes less frustrating.
To be honest, they don't do it because its less mind-numbing, because it actually isn't, its simply quicker to turn in stacks of cubes AT ALL. I think even with a portable CityCom this mission would still quicker cap a char than hunting mobs. And the Rhino thing is mostly relevant for monks and PEs to level Dex since there is hardly any option for that class at all...
As above, we need to fix missions. The fact that the alternative to the established, awful PvE level treadmill is cube missions, is woefully depressing.
My rant isn't about the matter-at-hand, you are right. It is entirely focused on the fact that time is valuable and I hate when people don't grasp when they create a time wasting event for others. Furthermore, it is infuriating to have them continue to assert that something is not a waste of time when there is really no logical way you can come to that conclusion.
If this was directed at my original post, I hope some of the above epic text wall explains it in more detail and provides further discussion points.
I hate 150 cubes. I like playing the game. I hate repping rhinos. I like playing the game.
I do both 150's and rhino repping on any new character to avoid the complete and utter timesink that is running back and forth to a citycom.
I would probably end your sentence with the words "to get bugger all XP for it". If the mission was actually rewarding and more palatable (e.g. more targets per mission), it would become less of a timesink (do it fewer times) and as such become generally less of a waste of time. Yes. We need to address it. More on that above, which i assume you've read, as you're reading this bit. I'm starting to go slightly stir crazy.
My argument is that turning in 150's is mindnumbing, and so is repping a rhino. If mission xp wasn't a burden to obtain, there is a high likelihood that leveling methods will change which could actually help this game. No vet player starts in the sewers. Plenty of new players do. And guess who is down there with them? No one. Everyone is doing 150's or rhinos instead.
Yes. Exactly.
To continue to the root of my argument:
Please don't waste my time while telling me you are not. You aren't stupid, and I'm not a pushover.
I hope i've covered this above. If not PM me. It's late and I may have missed a point or two in trying to get this out no later than it already is.
My opening statement was telling you that slapping Cyclops' at the bunker for hours on end isn't any less mind-numbing then turning in stacks of cubes or rep Rhinos. Its pretty much on par in my book. Whether you return in between or not.
This comes back to the personal thing. Different people find different things more or less enjoyable. The key take away is that we need to make the enjoyable things more worthwhile.
Actually, i think it makes more sense to cut the mission at that point anyways and just kill things to cap the combat skills. The other skills come along when doing Regants with teams etc.
Covered above, I hope.
PVE is going to get its luv by the devs at some point
And missions and newbie experience and vehicles and storyline and graphics and...
I am not looking forward to getting out of bed in 5 hours. :)
Poor me. ;) :p
http://forum.neocron-game.com/images/preloaded/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by yavimaya http://forum.neocron-game.com/images/preloaded/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://forum.neocron-game.com/showthread.php?p=2228141#post2228141)
I dont think there should be gogo and citycom at the bunker though, i did like the fact that they placed them at the top of the MB base though instead of having to run all the way down, that was a great move, abit of a run, but not annoying.
It would seem you share a play style with me! What are your thoughts on how worthwhile the missions are, even at that kind of
?
I personally think that the run is neccessary, its not a "mission" if there is no running, however the running should somehow be balanced with the XP and money rate as one would get if "grinding", unfortunetaly this is not so and i dont see how it can be done reliably over each mission difficulty and enemy type.
For example, aggie missions are good, you have to zone out, mostly have to run a small way and then run back and rezone, once you get up to hard missions and need to find raptors, even cyclops launchers to a certain extent there is simply no point doing missions at all. Raptors because the run to get a new mission and even to find the 2nd raptor is just massive.
Cyclops because there are so many packed into one area, why would you waste your time running back to MB to get a new mission? you will never make up the lost XP from the run. However saying that, putting a citycom very close to the bunker is just silly as it is simply handing bonus XP to people for nothing.
It is a very hard balancing act that i think would take too much work to balance properly.
If it were my game i would simply up the XP by 3 times or so for the harder to find creatures / very hard missions ( as well as the faction symp) and not worry to much about balancing every little aspect. :shrug:
Trivaldi, I wanted to thank you for your reply. It helps (me) to understand where you guys are coming from and how your thinking goes with the development of NC.
As we're yet to look into mission reward XP or even CityCom missions in any real detail, there is likely a lot of things that need re-balancing within that framework. At the moment it is abundantly clear that in a lot of circumstances, CityCom missions are pointless. They provide no benefit to the person completing them outside of FS/SL farming.
This is fairly off topic, and shouldn't be something that gets done before the many other more important aspects of the game that need fixing. But.. I'd really love to see the ability to influence an individual players faction score regarding other factions within the game. In EQ1, a player could gain faction with any group in the game. Even if it took forever, they could become liked by a group that started off hating (KOS) their race. I'd love to see a similar system added to NC. Where, either through Citycom missions, or through faction quests, a player from say the Black Dragons could become accepted, or even liked by say City Administration.
In addition to adding an interesting aspect to the game, it would also serve to add another reason for Citycom missions.
Dr Strange
16-08-14, 06:53
Just a thought, but has anyone considered allowing us to access a Citycom remotely and/or accept new missions remotely?
I ask cause in some places, where a dungeon is close a citycom terminal, it can be quite easy to be stuck running back and forth. What I mean is, you kill stuff to quickly.
A good example; I was doing Aggie missions on my newly made HC Tank. I was around there rank level so I wasn't over-leveling them. However I was dealing enough dps that I could start a new mission, go down into the dungeon, kill five of them within a minute or two then have to backtrack to go re-take the mission again. I think I spent more time running out of the dungeon and back in than I did in actual combat, if you counted the minutes. I know the recent patch has lowered dps across the board but even so I think you'd still run into this problem.
Might be a nice quality of life change that isn't too handy since you'd still need to leave the dungeon to access a GoGo or sell junk.
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