Proposal for a new cannon

[Torg]

from my tests (raising up new chars all the time) i got the impression that all weapons are available in the pistols, rifles, psi (drones are a bit weak at start, i'd rather use fists) line, for a nice progression in skill levels, while theres a gap at cannons/heavy weapons.

starting with the all-too-powerful TL 3 grenade launcher, you'll work your way to the TL 23 or switch to the high-tech TL 19 laser cannon. the TL 10 flamer is quite hard to use, and only a few people understand the importance of handgrenades in NC. it would be easier, and more appealing for the new player, to have a single-shot low-tech alternative gun. at TLs like 12, 44 and 72. Here it is:

12369

Yes, right, thats the ion cannon, which could be recoloured and reused (and refitted with new sound fx), as a non-rare, lowtech "howitzer" or "mortar", straight shooting, easy to handle (good aiming), medium range, not too much damage, slowly firing (new) shrapnell charges (fire, piercing, explosive, uranium, like other low-tech guns). the gun should be easy to implement by the dev tem (later this year) and boost playing fun for tanks and heavy PEs.

what do you think?

[William Antrim]

I wouldnt call it a mortar or a howitzer as theyre completely different to one another and the weapon you describe in a direct fire role just sounds like a typical grenade launcher already in the game.

Essentially it looks like youre asking for a reskinning of the grenade launcher, I dont see what other purpose this would fill. If you wanted a recoilless rifle for example that would look smart, but theyre vehicle mounted anyway.

I like the idea of a good discussion though so props to you for that. Id like to see some form of automatic grenade launcher in the game though, or a better working rocket launcher.

[Drachenpaladin]

If you wanted a recoilless rifle for example that would look smart, but theyre vehicle mounted anyway.
Carl Gustaf



Sure, bridging the gap sounds nice but i'm not seeing it with your idea yet? How is the gunplay supposed to be like with that gun? Is it AoE or non? A slow-firing no-AoE gun that punches holes in rats?

[Torg]

a low-tech direct-firing cannon, an alternative to the lasers. non aoe. shooting at things. a gun to use where aoe/grenades isnt perfect, line in open space (i.e. cyclops at the MB bunker) or very narrow places (i.e. cellars, basements).

[Load_HeavyLoad]

like the gatlin cannon?

[Torg]

single shot (like a laser or plasma wave, or ion), not burst (like gatlin or plasma).

[Reaction77]

Like the street rifles?

[Drachenpaladin]

Like the street rifles?

From what i gathered, yes. An H-C equivalent to those.

[Torg]

or a 9mm colt. or a shotgun.

[AlvaroT]

Clustershot shotgun from defiance game?
12380
Shoots blobs like grenade launcher, but they explode on impact.

[Dribble Joy]

I've noticed this for years too. Either we pull something down or we make something new.

I always thought a hip-fired 50 cal heavy machine gun might be something new players might like.....

[Torg]

...50 cal heavy machine gun...i havent thought of that. should be fun, too (i myself am somewhat more into single shots than bursts, but thats just my thing, so..)

[Drachenpaladin]

i havent thought of that. should be fun, too (i myself am somewhat more into single shots than bursts, but thats just my thing, so..)

Well... some sort of beefed up Anti-materiel Rifle might suit the tank.

[necrocon]

This is true, that is a pretty huge gap. Yeah there is the soldier tree TL 10 Flame thrower, but that is pretty much trash, even if you max your HC, as well as your Weapon Lore, you still have to pretty much hug the target to get a lock... It really isn't the most effective bridge item at all. It can't be researched, the quality isn't great, but hey the one I got was 4 slotted... (cry) lol

[hatmankh]

I've never really noticed the gap, levelling a tank always seems to go very fast for me. Cannons are the only weapon to get access to AoE right from the start, this makes up for the TL gap and then some. Just kill spiders in the PP sewer and you'll get to the next launcher in no time at all.

[necrocon]

Isn't the idea of some variety nice though Hatmankh? That is part of what we are looking at here, or at least I myself am. When you cap out with your rare, it is great having the same weapon forever. But getting a new weapon, is kind of a lvling reward. That is a long time to stick to the same old weapon... Zzzzz lol

It is only a brainport thought, nothing more good sir!

[hatmankh]

Variety is always nice but if we're adding new levelling weapons I'd much prefer we start with an AoE rifle. An equivalent to the rocket pistol perhaps, it's been suggested before.

Cannons are great already, not that there isn't any room for improvement.

I seriously doubt any new weapons will get added in the near future anyway, not until the major balancing work is done. Introducing new weapons in the middle of that could throw a spanner in the works.

[Drachenpaladin]

Variety is always nice but if we're adding new levelling weapons I'd much prefer we start with an AoE rifle. An equivalent to the rocket pistol perhaps, it's been suggested before.

Cannons are great already, not that there isn't any room for improvement.

I seriously doubt any new weapons will get added in the near future anyway, not until the major balancing work is done. Introducing new weapons in the middle of that could throw a spanner in the works.

Fusion weapon line would make perfect for AoE rifles and pistols as well imho!

[Bragi]

I seriously doubt any new weapons will get added in the near future anyway, not until the major balancing work is done. Introducing new weapons in the middle of that could throw a spanner in the works.
We can add new weapons quite easily. New models are another matter though.

[necrocon]

I don't recall the pistol rocket launcher being AoE? Obviously I could be wrong... Don't tell my mom, or my ex wife though! It isn't required to have a new cannon, just it really is a long jump from 3 - 23 if you are using low tech, and it is even a long jump from 3 - 19 if you jump to high tech. That is great to hear, that it wouldn't be that difficult Bragi. I had not considered, what Hatmankh pointed out earlier.. that we are going through weapon balancing now. I could see it either being the perfect time to introduce a new TL weapon and incorporate it, into the current balancing, or bring such a weapon in down the road after the majority of balancing is done.

I would say personally. I think while the balancing is going on.. would be a great time though. :p Whatever you guys feel is best of course!

[StevenJ]

pistol rocket launcher being AoEAs far as I remember, yeah - this has been the case, but the highest TL was around 65 or so :(

[necrocon]

Damn, I wish I had a pistol toon leveled up to go try it out. I can't remember, that was so long ago. True the Pistol RL did die early on.

Spinning off topic, further... I wouldn't mind seeing the shotgun from The Expendables AA12, or that shotgun bunker buster round... lol!

Now back to canons!

[hatmankh]

What about fixing the jones flamer so it's actually useful? Would that be difficult? Having useless jones rewards is a bigger problem than you might think. A new player would often just use the flamer, assuming that it's the best weapon they own. In reality the starter launcher outperforms the flamer by a wide margin.

When they find out how useless it is, they could get quite disappointed. It's not a good first impression to make.

[Torg]

this thread started in june - way before the recent patches stopped AoE weapons like grenade launchers being overpowered. today you can still level up your HC toon on nades, but even the first TL 19 laser cannon feels like an achievement. Which is a sign of improved balancing. A line of low-tech cannons starting would still fit in.

[necrocon]

As for the Jones Flamer, it does seem like pure trash, a kick to the nuts...

[Drachenpaladin]

Hm yeah, just looked into it, the first viable non-AoE HC weapon seems to be the Self-constructed Spraycan Flamer at TL24. Other than that its really just nades and nades and nades, the Jones Flamer really could need a DMG buff.

I just tested it with a Lvl20 Tank Soldier against the Inquisitor NPCs from the Jones Soldier run.



INT: 22
WEP: 84


STR: 32
H-C: 69


DEX: 23
T-C: 55



Results are:



Good
TL03
Streetmodel Grenade Launcher
~20 hits


Better
TL10
Flamer
5 hits


Bad
TL23
Grenade Launcher
~8 hits


Bad
TL24
Self-constructed Spraycan Flamer
4 hits


Artifact
TL24
Self-constructed Spraycan Flamer
2 hits



Make out of that what you will, the noob launcher is a PITA for the Jones Run. I don't think the hand grenades are any better, at least not for leveling, are they recyclable?
Aggi Captains are still picking me apart rather quickly so anything below the TL23 GL seems unreasonable here.

In conclusion TL 6 and TL 15 Gatling Canons or so seem reasonable now to me.

[necrocon]

Try that Jones Flamer with the basic requirements and see how close you have to be. 10 str, mostly, or completely HC, and all int in Weapon Lore... Might as well be melee... Unless I did something wrong...

[Drachenpaladin]

Try that Jones Flamer with the basic requirements and see how close you have to be. 10 str, mostly, or completely HC, and all int in Weapon Lore... Might as well be melee... Unless I did something wrong...

Well, then again, the flamer IS a CQC weapon, not intended for mid or long range. Its supposed to play in melee range areas.

[necrocon]

I will admit to never really using them before, but I mean I was hugging spiders, and plants in the sewer to score hits. Otherwise the reticle wouldn't lock.... Seems mighty short, lol!

[necrocon]

So I spent some time looking at various weapons. Obviously I am not one of you glorious GM's, and Developers. I don't see the how weapons were spaced by TL, or even how categories were chosen. There are 4 types of Lowtech Rifles, and 7 types of Hightech Rifles. Of them, the Sniper Rifle, seems to be slightly shared between both trees.

For Heavy Combat weapons. There are Hand Grenades, Grenade Launchers, Rocket Launchers, Flamers, Gatlin Cannons, and Anti Vehicle Launchers. Gatlin Cannons lowest current TL is 40, Rocket Launcher TL 34. Flamer TL 24, Hand Grenade 5, Grenade Launcher 3.

I would consider great prospects to be a Gatlin Cannon, and/or a Rocket Launcher to fill the gap from 3- 23 for lowtech weapons. (ignoring Hand Grenades....)

[Drachenpaladin]

So I spent some time looking at various weapons. Obviously I am not one of you glorious GM's, and Developers. I don't see the how weapons were spaced by TL, or even how categories were chosen.

Me neither, and you don't have to, there is THN's Item Database for that! (http://www.techhaven.org/db/weapons/heavy) :p

I'm not sure if the hand grenades where ever more then just gimmicks. I also don't think they are thought out very well the way they are now, they are a H-C STR AoE item, which makes them attractive mostly for tanks... the class which has the most AoE weapons anyway and especially in that level range uses mostly the GLs so... they don't really need them at all.
For other classes who lack AoE weapons like spies and PEs there is little incentive for cross-speccing this early in the game, simply because you need every point somewhere else to squeeze everything bit of usefulness out of you noob gear.

Now PvE balancing will only commence after PvP so its kinda pointless to look into damage of the grenades I guess.
WHAT I would like to see however is making them a DEX & WEP item so that all 3 gun toting classes can use them. Since they are not recyclable and can get pretty heavy when bought en mass I think there is no fear that Tanks lose their monopoly on AoE here.

Also, why we are there: Hightech-Energy Hand Grenades! T-C required "EMP" Freezer-weapon nades anyone?!^^ huehuehue

[necrocon]

Oh, I looked there, just some of the weapon upgrades are on top of each other... That is what I don't understand, lol!

[Drachenpaladin]

Oh, I looked there, just some of the weapon upgrades are on top of each other... That is what I don't understand, lol!

What exactly don't you understand? O_o

[necrocon]

I just don't see where the decision was made for what weapons, were going to be offered at each level. Like here for HC weapons since they are relevant to the conversation.
G-Launcher, Hand Grenade, (flamer), Hand Grenade, G-Launcher, Flamer, Hand Grenade - then some variance with a R-Launcher, and the Gatlin Canon. I'm not knocking it really. I just wonder when the game was designed, how the selected the weapon progression is all. It seems pretty random, but it probably isn't. There isn't a pattern that I can pick out, in any of the weapon trees, be it pistol, rifle, or cannon. Now on Spells, those seem to kind of follow a pattern.

3 Street Model Grenade Launcher STR:3 H‑C:7
5 Self-constructed Trash Grenade STR:5 H‑C:12
10 F12 Flamer STR:10 H‑C:25 (Jones Starter Mission)
16 Unlabeled Hand Grenade STR:16 H‑C:40
21 Trash Hand Grenade STR:21 H‑C:51
23 Grenade Launcher STR:23 H‑C:53
24 Self-Constructed Spraycan Flamer STR:24 H‑C:55
31 Hand Grenade STR:31 H‑C:63
34 Defender Rocket Launcher STR:34 H‑C:67
40 Unlabeled Gatlin Cannon STR:40 H‑C:75

Also I didn't notice the hightech grenade before. Lol! Notice, the TG Freedom Strike Epic though. I've never used them. Are they unlimited? Or is that a burn out epic? Some factions have some pretty crappy epics. Others like are pretty sweet! Few things though are as good as the Jones Mission starter vehicle available to all, but Monks I think.