View Full Version : Any love for some negative SL gameplay?
I'll be short and to the point: noone goes red SL, because rediculous amounts of things drop per death. I know there should be some sort of punishment for negative SL, but if it's SO FUCKING HIGH noone ever will do it, then whats the point?
Right now if someone gets low sl, they run away, and go hide while they do recycle missions until their hair falls out and their eyes start bleeding.
Solution: Perhaps remove the safe slot like before, but limit items dropped to 1? Also: Perhaps in battlezones, where positive SL people drop NOTHING AT ALL, perhaps also the same for negative SL?
Just some thoughts. It seems ridiculous that we have all these PP battles, but we all can't kill each other for fear of having to recycle until our hair falls out, we get cancer, and our bodies get recycled into the earth.
This way, we could have more PVP events in battledome, which is like, made for pvp, right? And neofrag just doesn't cut it. :(
Maybe make PP1 a battlezone too? hahaha.
I mean let's face it. PvE for more people is a means to get equipped for PvP. PvP should not be a chore like it is today.
Some people actually just quit instead of trying to get their SL back up. The SL system is cool but it does need to be more robust. One of the easiest answers here is to have SL auto-regain (slowly) until the player is no longer actively shot by copbots.
The biggest pisser about SL is when someone who you are not attacking dies and you all of the sudden go from -10 to -45 because you hit them with splash damage or an errant burst. If that was the ONLY thing that could be fixed, the difference would be night and day.
Drachenpaladin
28-06-14, 06:15
The biggest pisser about SL is when someone who you are not attacking dies and you all of the sudden go from -10 to -45 because you hit them with splash damage or an errant burst. If that was the ONLY thing that could be fixed, the difference would be night and day.
About which situation are we talking? City fights? Just don't do AoE.
Caves? Shit happens, watch where you shoot. If someone gets in you way constantly, tell him and then stop rezzing him.
I dont think its neccessary to change the drop system heavily for the people who has sl 100.
There needs to an alternative mission for the runners who has less than -31 soullight or a mini epic through the wastes that will after completed , set the soullight back to the point where u can use genreps again.
It takes weeks to get from -40 to - 25 because its fucking boring to do 3 missions for 1 sl point. Slowlyness dont need to be everywhere. Just create a small quick done mission , so people can jump into pvp again ,at least at the same day.
I dont think its neccessary to change the drop system heavily for the people who has sl 100.
There needs to an alternative mission for the runners who has less than -31 soullight or a mini epic through the wastes that will after completed , set the soullight back to the point where u can use genreps again.
It takes weeks to get from -40 to - 25 because its fucking boring to do 3 missions for 1 sl point. Slowlyness dont need to be everywhere. Just create a small quick done mission , so people can jump into pvp again ,at least at the same day.
Agreed. The system as is encourages people to just sit around and hoard. Would be good to see some pvpers outside of a controlled setting
excuse me. but wheres the problem? you wont loose SL in op-fights. just in cityfights or while cave-farming, by killing allied or neutral toons. which in turn is easily avoided: all you need to do is not killing them. or AoE blindly. say, whats so difficult in PvPing in PvP areas, and trading in trade areas? Compared to other MMORPGs, death in NC is ridiculous. all you need to do is wait out the SI, get imped, get back into action. what else would you want to remove to make the game more boring? may i ask you to just care for the game mechanics, instead of dreaming up a game without mechanics?
excuse me. but wheres the problem? you wont loose SL in op-fights. just in cityfights or while cave-farming, by killing allied or neutral toons. which in turn is easily avoided: all you need to do is not killing them. or AoE blindly. say, whats so difficult in PvPing in PvP areas, and trading in trade areas? Compared to other MMORPGs, death in NC is ridiculous. all you need to do is wait out the SI, get imped, get back into action. what else would you want to remove to make the game more boring? may i ask you to just care for the game mechanics, instead of dreaming up a game without mechanics?
This is not true, death is Neocron is a pain.
In every other MMO I played, you just click and go back into action.
In Neocron you have to wait SI (which is fine), you have to get poked (which would be fine if there were pokers, but getting a 115 is often hard) and you may loose items in belt.
I have not played another game where you can loose your stuff, it's the only one.
Loosing items in Neocron is a thing I like, since it adds the thrill when you fight.
But loosing all your stuff at once is just stupid.
No hack on red SL belt + loosing 1 item would be enough.
Drachenpaladin
28-06-14, 17:40
Both, Castr0 and Torg, got their points.
Torg just said the same as me. Whatch what you frag in caves. If you AoE in city fights your are asking for SI.
But Castr0 also has a point, especially at the current pop getting back into action is a pain. Not only the imping, you also have to wait till SI is down to get poked and then another time after GRing back to where you where leveling if there is no rezzer or you where soloing in a cave cuz reasons.
But thats actually besides the point. What do the devs say? to SI?
Personal opinion, not that of the team, does not suggest this is the intention.
What do the devs say? to SI?
I've always thought that optionally paying to respawn with 0 SI (premium replication service!) would provide a much needed cash sink.
However, that's off topic for this thread. Regarding the topic at hand...
Right now if someone gets low sl, they run away, and go hide while they do recycle missions until their hair falls out and their eyes start bleeding.
There needs to an alternative mission for the runners who has less than -31 soullight or a mini epic through the wastes that will after completed , set the soullight back to the point where u can use genreps again.
The patch after the balancing one will have various updates to SL-regain missions and living with negative soul light.
Just some thoughts. It seems ridiculous that we have all these PP battles, but we all can't kill each other for fear of having to recycle until our hair falls out, we get cancer, and our bodies get recycled into the earth.
Striking a balance between keeping distinct factions plus their political relationships (a very core feature of Neocron) and having a suitable gateway to plenty of PvP is a difficult thing. I'd hate to see the day where everyone can kill everyone and just go about their business. We might as well remove factions on that day.
This way, we could have more PVP events in battledome, which is like, made for pvp, right? And neofrag just doesn't cut it. :(
Battledome has the same rules as Outposts. So as long as you start said PVP event there, you should not have any issues.
Maybe make PP1 a battlezone too? hahaha.
Perhaps we need to rework the rules for various sector types? After all Pepper Park currently has Neocron 2 SL rules, which is when NCPD managed to regain a fairly significant hold in the district. They no longer have that hold since we removed the CopBots (and TS/BD moved back in). We can't have it simply turn to pure anarchy though, as several factions live there and should at least be partially protected from ganking by the soul light system.
We have a pretty unique problem in that we let players fight pretty much anywhere. That really does complicate matters. I don't think there are too many MMOs still around that let you openly attack anyone where newbies roam freely.
In every other MMO I played, you just click and go back into action.i dont know what you spent your time with, but i suggest trying Eve Online: Death means losing your ship, your weapons, your cargo, your implants and sometimes also some of your exp.
Drachenpaladin
28-06-14, 20:12
i dont know what you spent your time with, but i suggest trying Eve Online: Death means losing your ship, your weapons, your cargo, your implants and sometimes also some of your exp.
Which is what makes it a snorefest of studying table calculations and multi box farming. Thanks. I can have that for less with Ogame.
NC is an action oriented FPS-RPG, not an economy simulation.
The biggest pisser about SL is when someone who you are not attacking dies and you all of the sudden go from -10 to -45 because you hit them with splash damage or an errant burst. If that was the ONLY thing that could be fixed, the difference would be night and day.
IMO you should do at least 20% damage to a person, before you loose SL.
Because I think everyone have lost SL because of a few stray bullets.. And that is just dumb IMO.
William Antrim
30-06-14, 00:24
Torg when will you learn... :)
As for death in nc being a pain in the arse. Yes. Another reason why people stop fighting, as dasore said.
Torg I imagine you rarely die in PvP as you don't do it, so why would you try to change the rules for those who do want to?
Torg I imagine you rarely die in PvP as you don't do it, so why would you try to change the rules for those who do want to?Didnt die on Titan yet. Not enough spare time to go full neocron, sadly. And no, i dont want to change the rules. You do. Sorry, im still opposing attemps to make the game more convenient for deathmatch aspirants. right now you lose SL for being inattentive at PvP. and right, thats a nuisance. i believe it should stay this way. really, i wouldnt want us to lose weapons, armour, inventory, implants and some exp on death. like in certain other MMOs.
on second thought: really, you think ppl stop fighting because of fear of (ingame) death? bah. carebears.
Going to be a lot of responses to a lot of people, so bear with me.
excuse me. but wheres the problem? you wont loose SL in op-fights. just in cityfights or while cave-farming, by killing allied or neutral toons. which in turn is easily avoided: all you need to do is not killing them. or AoE blindly. say, whats so difficult in PvPing in PvP areas, and trading in trade areas? Compared to other MMORPGs, death in NC is ridiculous. all you need to do is wait out the SI, get imped, get back into action. what else would you want to remove to make the game more boring? may i ask you to just care for the game mechanics, instead of dreaming up a game without mechanics?
I do care for the game mechanics. What bothers me about this is that Negative SL is just a punishment tool, not as a actual way for people to play the game.
So we have all these factions, pro and anti city factions, and everyone runs around with positive SL. Where's the guys hanging out in the negative SL zone? Nowhere. Everyone just grinds missions until positive SL, since it's not really viable to run around with negative SL unless are your items are swapped out.
Would it be possible to have red SI people again?
This is not true, death is Neocron is a pain.
In every other MMO I played, you just click and go back into action.
In Neocron you have to wait SI (which is fine), you have to get poked (which would be fine if there were pokers, but getting a 115 is often hard) and you may loose items in belt.
I have not played another game where you can loose your stuff, it's the only one.
Loosing items in Neocron is a thing I like, since it adds the thrill when you fight.
But loosing all your stuff at once is just stupid.
No hack on red SL belt + loosing 1 item would be enough.
Yup. Agreed with this. Look at wow. Repair costs, res sickness, andddd you're back.
Even EVE, with everything getting dropped on death, is actually a bit easier than Neocron. If i want to PvP without losing anything on Eve, all i need to do is get a faction high enough, store my clone there, make a fresh clone without any implants, get a small ship i don't care getting blown up, and then sail off. If i die, i just pop back to my other clone with all my imps and main ship. No prob.
I've always thought that optionally paying to respawn with 0 SI (premium replication service!) would provide a much needed cash sink.
Great idea. Would solve a lot of things, with minimum effort! But this is still fixing half the problem, which is getting people back to PVP quickly. But doesn't solve the problem of trying to play as a red SI character.
The patch after the balancing one will have various updates to SL-regain missions and living with negative soul light.
Awesome, good to hear, thank you.
Striking a balance between keeping distinct factions plus their political relationships (a very core feature of Neocron) and having a suitable gateway to plenty of PvP is a difficult thing. I'd hate to see the day where everyone can kill everyone and just go about their business. We might as well remove factions on that day.
Yeah, would definitely not want that. You're right, it's a balance between the two. But...when was the last time someone even hung out in the negative SL zone in outzone? Place is deader than DOY when i checked. Wouldn't it help neocron to have more of a "criminal element" in the city again? Just doesn't feel right to have EVERYONE including all the PVP'ers with positive SL. Maybe i'm a bit of RPer.
Battledome has the same rules as Outposts. So as long as you start said PVP event there, you should not have any issues.
If someone went to battledome with negative SL, and wanted to start pvp events, would they still have no issue? I'd like to see battlezones where negative SL and positive SL wouldn't drop anything. I don't believe that's the case as it is now.
Perhaps we need to rework the rules for various sector types? After all Pepper Park currently has Neocron 2 SL rules, which is when NCPD managed to regain a fairly significant hold in the district. They no longer have that hold since we removed the CopBots (and TS/BD moved back in). We can't have it simply turn to pure anarchy though, as several factions live there and should at least be partially protected from ganking by the soul light system.
We have a pretty unique problem in that we let players fight pretty much anywhere. That really does complicate matters. I don't think there are too many MMOs still around that let you openly attack anyone where newbies roam freely.
Agreed. Perhaps a battlezone inside the city, that isn't going to be near where noobs need to go for missions? The power room in plaza 1 for example, people run there for pvp alllllllll the time. You're right about PP, too many factions.
i dont know what you spent your time with, but i suggest trying Eve Online: Death means losing your ship, your weapons, your cargo, your implants and sometimes also some of your exp.
Again, at least with EVE, there was systems where you could "store" your clone, make a fresh one with your stats, and pop off in a tiny fighter and get killed with 0 penalty. It's funny you compare Neocron with Eve, because imo Eve is even EASIER than neocron to just run out and pvp. I'd rather lose tons of small fighters, corvettes, even a battlecruiser with no prob compared to losing say...my WOC PA on my PE on neocron.
IMO you should do at least 20% damage to a person, before you loose SL.
Because I think everyone have lost SL because of a few stray bullets.. And that is just dumb IMO.
Good idea! It's a start.
Didnt die on Titan yet. Not enough spare time to go full neocron, sadly. And no, i dont want to change the rules. You do. Sorry, im still opposing attemps to make the game more convenient for deathmatch aspirants. right now you lose SL for being inattentive at PvP. and right, thats a nuisance. i believe it should stay this way. really, i wouldnt want us to lose weapons, armour, inventory, implants and some exp on death. like in certain other MMOs.
on second thought: really, you think ppl stop fighting because of fear of (ingame) death? bah. carebears.
Yeah, people do stop fighting, believe it or not. You should check it out sometime.
...Even EVE, with everything getting dropped on death, is actually a bit easier than Neocron. If i want to PvP without losing anything on Eve, all i need to do is get a faction high enough, store my clone there, make a fresh clone without any implants, get a small ship i don't care getting blown up, and then sail off. If i die, i just pop back to my other clone with all my imps and main ship. No prob.
Again, at least with EVE, there was systems where you could "store" your clone, make a fresh one with your stats, and pop off in a tiny fighter and get killed with 0 penalty. It's funny you compare Neocron with Eve, because imo Eve is even EASIER than neocron to just run out and pvp. I'd rather lose tons of small fighters, corvettes, even a battlecruiser with no prob compared to losing say...my WOC PA on my PE on neocron.
Jumping on an empty clone and into a tech 1 frigate (i dont remember corvettes tbh) to get killed painlessly in Eve is like making a new 0/2, pulling the LE and starting to shoot at ppl with you starter pea shooter pistol in NC. Losing your WOC PA in a fight in NC is more like crashing your tech 2 battleship or carrier on your main char in Eve.
afaik you dont lose SL in a battlezone. so... but yes, if you are in red, you should have a working OZ 8 jail, missions to it, and a way to get out of the mess if you want to. just in case.
William Antrim
01-07-14, 13:32
The point is people do want to fight in places that arent organised affairs like at ops.
The short version of this thread should be to make Pepper Park into a battleground zone. Remove all penalties for killing other runners and only give rewards.
There is still the risk of belt loss, there are still penalties to dying, but it would bring back that element of fear that the zone is sadly lacking at the moment.
Yes, there should be a battlezone, somewhere in the city. a storage underneath plaza 2 or something. pepper park is dangerous enough, as it is. no penalties for killing (F6) enemies. and at least its the homeplace for young runners, isnt it?
Yes, there should be a battlezone, somewhere in the city. a storage underneath plaza 2 or something. pepper park is dangerous enough, as it is. no penalties for killing (F6) enemies. and at least its the homeplace for young runners, isnt it?
agreed. i would like PP to be a battlezone (shit, noobs got LE chip), but just a zone near p1 that's a battlezone would go a loooooooong way. like that power control room or whatnot.
i dunno. people see red SL as a punishment mechanism....i would like to see it possible to RP as someone with red SL. It's a lot of game mechanic that noone really sees unless they "fuck up and hit someone accidentally", in which case they run off and aren't seen for a while. /shrug.
Good ideas though, everyone. They're changing SL and adding more missions in a few patches, i suppose ill wait and see how it changes, then maybe see where we stand.
And i really like trivaldi's idea of a "premium GR" service idea. :)
In my opinion the premium GR service idea is very good :) And I think the "downtime due to death problem" and the "-SL playstyle problem" should be looked at separately from each other.
My current standing point on the "downtime problem" is that the downtime is too large at the moment, but on the other hand we do not want Neocron to become another Quake-like game. The Neofrag might become something like a Quake-like Neocron, but before touching that we need to fix other issues, like the balancing first ;)
Concerning the "-SL playstyle problem" I think that being a bad ass has to be punished. I also think that one should watch oneselves fire, so one should also be punished in case some kills or damages someone accidentaly. However, I agree that the punishment is a little bit too high at the moment for the later case. And I also agree that there is no real "-SL playstyle" at the moment, there are some crucial things missing to that at the moment, but you will soon(TM) see what I am referring to there ;)
Doc Holliday
02-07-14, 05:46
i dont know what you spent your time with,
ESO. WOW and every decent shooting game out there. Click and go. No downtime. These are just two. Matrix online (when it was running) was the same. Die, respawn and run back to your mission/quest. I dont often play a wide range of MMOs but with these being some of the mainstream ones thats a fair example to reply to your point.
Death in neocron is a pain in general. You seem to be the only one who wants to keep it in 2003 game mechanics. Even in UO when you died and lost all your stuff you could at least run back and pick it up (praying the killer wasnt corpse camping).
Neocrons death system worked very well once upon a time but its biggest flaw was its reliance on a steady population (poking).
Logging off dead because you know you wont get poked is not what people should have to do.
Neocrons death system worked very well once upon a time but its biggest flaw was its reliance on a steady population (poking).thats why we all have poking alts. problem solved. now lets prepare the situation for new players to join us and have a great time.
damien vryce
03-07-14, 16:13
Torg if only I could say openly what 90% of the community wants to say to you in all the durogatory since that it demands but I'd like to keep my forum account in good standing or else nidd will chase me down. read between a the lines and you should get the drift have a wonderful day.
If it is changed it needs to be minor, say lower it to 2 objects with open belt and no safe slot, if theres no proper downside to it you may as well remove factions so people can just free for all murder each other.
Hell theres those who might say it shouldn't be changed at all and I'm one of them... killing allies isn't something your encouraged to do, the red sl downsides are meant to stop you killing your allies while giving you the option to now and then if you really want. You seem to want a system where its possible to just kill all your allies and stay at -100sl making the whole sl system pointless.
As for dropouts idea yes that should be implemented right away, its such a pain when you accidently hit somebody with 1 bullet and suddenly lose a TON of sl. Thats the real issue, people who purposefully kill allies should be punished hardly if they keep it up, its when people get that harsh punishment for having 1 bullet go stray that things get bad.
Death in neocron is a pain in general. You seem to be the only one who wants to keep it in 2003 game mechanics. Even in UO when you died and lost all your stuff you could at least run back and pick it up (praying the killer wasnt corpse camping).
Neocrons death system worked very well once upon a time but its biggest flaw was its reliance on a steady population (poking).
Logging off dead because you know you wont get poked is not what people should have to do.
True, the whole problem with zone line whoring became a problem because people don't want to die as it involves waiting for the SI then finding a poker so your out of the fight for a while, combine this with needing repairers as well and you end up with huge amounts of downtime when all people want to do is fight.
As much as we love this game there are certain things that on reflection (and having seen many other MMO since it was releaseD) could do with being changed, death is one of them. I'm not up for no downsides at all, part of what makes combat in neocron so exciting is that death has a penalty, in other MMOs pvp isn't tense because theres just no downside, hell most other MMOs iv played I use death as a quick transport system.
Implants coming out needs to stop being a thing (at least for now) perhaps when theres a bigger community it can come back but right now its too much, I use 2 MC5 implants and I need both to use my guns, if 1 falls out and theres no tl115 poker online I just need to log off and keep checking in too see if ones logged on.
SI and dropping an item is good enough, though in all honesty the whole belt system could do with being changed, its sort of unfair that tanks have no chance of getting an item from people they kill and even PEs struggle to manage it (especially with sl100 belts). I'm not sure how it should be changed as I like the idea of items dropping (plus its needed for the red sl system) but classes other than spys should be able to benefit from it.
I like the idea of the Premium GR system, it's basically like paying for bail and would help keep the servers up.
Along that same idea though what about a Parole system. Say either after paying some creds, a mission, or something, your char is put on parole. While on parole your char would have to use an "LE style" imp so you couldn't attack anyone (maybe people could attack you, maybe not). This would be a heavy price for depending on what slot the imp would take. Maybe a foot slot that lowers moment speed, a special PA that can't be removed, etc etc.
Anyways, you basically have to follow a special set of rules imposed by NCPD and sever your time, but you'd be able to interact with other players and continue to play with your red SL while it comes back.
About which situation are we talking? City fights? Just don't do AoE.
Caves? Shit happens, watch where you shoot. If someone gets in you way constantly, tell him and then stop rezzing him.
Not talking about aoe. I'm talking about splash from plasma and the fact that my aim isn't what it used to be, so a stray burst may find its way into the back of an ally or neutral.
Maybe the answer to part of this is to put the punishment in the hands of the person who died, like you see in some other games. After their death at the hand of an ally/neutral, the player themselves has an option to choose a type of punishment, or to not punish at all.
SL has always been a cool mechanic in NC that I don't have any desire to see eliminated. It does need to mature, but if the input leads to gridlock that will never happen. Those who don't understand the problem, or think it should stay the same are doing nothing but holding the game back. Bow out of the thread and let change come. If it sucks, scream out i told you so and go on a bender to fix it. We're talking about a component to the game that has caused a number of players to quit... not a component that made a number of people stick around.
No one keeps playing this game because they have 100 sl. Plenty have quit because they hit -100.
Didnt die on Titan yet. Not enough spare time to go full neocron, sadly. And no, i dont want to change the rules. You do. Sorry, im still opposing attemps to make the game more convenient for deathmatch aspirants. right now you lose SL for being inattentive at PvP. and right, thats a nuisance. i believe it should stay this way. really, i wouldnt want us to lose weapons, armour, inventory, implants and some exp on death. like in certain other MMOs.
on second thought: really, you think ppl stop fighting because of fear of (ingame) death? bah. carebears.
You are the champion of my thoughts. +1 this, 100%.
We need to fix the clan war function in neocron. How can I fight all day at outposts against a clan who Is allied with my clans faction then not fight them in the city? Clan war would fix this problem.
We need to fix the clan war function in neocron. How can I fight all day at outposts against a clan who Is allied with my clans faction then not fight them in the city? Clan war would fix this problem.
*Searches the Like button* Hum well cannot find it, however I like that idea, but we have to dig through the code to have a look at how broken it is. We will put it on the todo list.
Sounds like a good idea, but I can already imagine ways to exploit it. Plus, it doesn't solve the root of the problem. Sometimes it is out of your control who you kill regardless of your pre-planning. The other day, I was bumrushed by a friendly (in a clan I consider friendly beyond the simple faction alignment) and then I had to make the decision to accept death or a huge SL hit.
That isn't good gameplay.
Many people prefer to take a SL hit over death, which makes it stupid easy to have a batch of 'kill me' characters with 100 sl in different factions just so you can set people up to go red. Clan wars won't fix that. People will still exploit the gaps in coverage and the argument will just morph into its new variant.
The system needs to be less convoluted, not more. More rules only makes it more difficult. Fewer, more defined and balanced rules, with respect to the fact that SL negotiation is stateless, will tighten up the process in more ways than one. Not to mention, the coding commitment and time to release are both significantly reduced.
/edit:
The current SL system applied to RL:
You are walking through a rough spot in NYC with many unsavory characters around you. Approaching you is a 15 year old kid with a mind to join a gang and a target in his eyes for initiation.
He gets closer and pulls a gun on you. Just before he pulls the trigger in front of his homeboys, you belch so loudly that you explode his head like Chuck Norris would.
That's self defense dawgs. You shouldn't take a 100 sl hit because he was 0/2 and had 100 soullight himself. It's not your fault the dumbass got the idea in his head, no matter how much Torg says stfu I'm here to impede real progress and make large posts asking for new support class shit because we're in the middle of a different initiative that isn't relevant to my interests.
Okay, so lets take a look at your example. You talk about the guy having high soul-light, and killing someone else.
You say the options are to die, or to kill them and accept a huge soul-light loss. So it's completely out of your ability to avoid the confrontation, or the killing, and get to a location which is safe, such as protected by police (cop bots) and I'll play into that because, well, you might not be the kind of individual who likes to run. Or perhaps you're not in a location that you can get to some assistance.
Doesn't the loss of soullight also apply to them?
...Plus, it doesn't solve the root of the problem. ...so you want to change the rules (game mechanics) according to your style of playing. i just doubt that is going to happen. you want NC to be more like counter-strike, i want to to be less like counter-strike. you want the game to fit your ideas, i want the game to fit the ideas of many different people. including yours.
I haven't played Counter Strike since before I played neocron. I don't yearn for CS in any way, nor do I have a desire to see the game become a respawnfest where you buy your weapons 3 seconds after you load in to the game. Quit putting extremist views on people other than yourself. Your perception of others is shallow and jaded by your own illusion of martyrdom.
saadow,
If a player has 100 sl and you have 10 sl, or maybe -5 sl, they know they are safe to attack with regard to their soullight. If a player with -5 sl kills an allied player, in an outskirt sector, with 100 sl because of a forced confrontation, the result would be something likely to the tune of -40 or lower which restricts use of GR's and is auto-aggro for most protective npc's. If a 100 sl player kills an allied -5 sl player, they will likely lose something between 5-10 and be perfectly safe. Do you honestly believe that to be good game play? A 100sl player can confront a -5sl and kill him probably 10-15 times before going negative, let alone red. A -5 would be -100sl himself after killing the 100sl 3 times.
Yes, actually that makes perfect sense to me, because A) The player with negative soullight has that amount for a reason. B) The person with one hundred soullight has that for another reason. We'll call them players A and B
If player B attacks player A, I would see their act as being a good samaritan. You're dealing with an individual who has aggregated negative karma for themselves through their actions, careless or not. This was immediately seen in a much more ruthless manner in the game Mortal Online. People abused this system to do something called blue blocking, but truly it was your own fault for hitting the blue player, if you weren't aware of your surroundings, and didn't take into account the -type- of area you were in, hitting that player was a death sentence, intentional or not. You learned quick not to fall for it.
Look, killing anyone should be an act of gravitas and weight, on one hand, killing a player with little or negative soullight is just that, it's killing a dangerous element that disregards the lives of other people. We call that a hero.
Killing someone when you have a lot of soullight, is not an action taken lightly. If you kill someone with a lot of soullight themselves, well, you just murdered someone who has shown significant worth to the world to be regarded as such. I don't think it's reasonable to consider even an accident as being an exception, If you can't control yourself and your environment in the battlefield, why should you be on the battlefield at all? The same thing with a vehicle. If you lose control of your vehicle and hit a pedestrian, you're at fault: you lost control of the vehicle.
So, basically if you have low soullight, you should expect that your actions will come back and haunt you. Accidents or not. If you have high soullight, you've garnered a significant karmic balance in your favor that if you kill someone who has very little soullight, the impact is minimal to you. That certainly makes perfect sense to me.
I See Blue
07-09-14, 13:21
I'm gonna side with Divide when it comes to SL hits you get when you are attack by others. It can be quite difficult to get away from attacks in certain areas, and for certain classes. So if you travel outside safe zones without an LE, you would have to make the decision that Divide talks about fairly regularly. I do however realise that it will be difficult to implement any check to this. However, the idea that a model citizen can just go on a rampage to kill non-model citisens is absurd. They should probably be punished even more, since their bloodlust would be all the more shocking to society, lowering their status quickly. And therefore their loss of soullight should be even bigger. From a RP standpoint at least, which seems to be what you are arguing from.
I see the potential SL hits as somewhat discouraging PvP outside opfighting. For many of the PvPers who seeks smaller fights, like in Pepper park, there just aren't enough people in enemy factions to feed the bloodlust. So the current numbers on the server make the faction system as it is unfriendly to small scale PvP. I am one of those who feel factions should atter more, and I will very rarely kill allied faction members without provocation. And I think there should be a penalty to friendly fire, though maybe not as harsh as it is at the moment. I mean, hours and hours of missions for soullight can be canceled out in minutes. The penalty is disproportionate. However, if people spread out more when it comes to factions, as well as some factions acquiring some more enemies, some of this would be sorted. Also, small scale PvPers should move to the more criminal/non-establishment faction, since they tend to have more enemies. So some of this can be fixxed by the population itself.
Another problem with the SL system is that it tends to be unfair to certain classes, such as tank, who can neither hack the belts their enemies drop if they want any aim worth speaking of, or stealth to retrieve their belts. Spies however, even with the now often worked true sight sanctum, have it much easier. Spies for that matter can also just stealth away from allied attacks, getting them out of the problem Divide mentioned. PEs to a lesser extent.
The pay extra for no SI upon death idea I see as difficult as well, as it would favour the defending clan in Op-fights. Where is the need for resurrection when you can just bounce back free of SI in the underground. Even if an implant or 2 fell out, the clan could just have a poker there, sorting people out so fast you would hardly notice they were gone in the first place. The attacking clan however, would be reliant on a poker in plaza 1, then having to wait off SI as they gr to the genrep closest to the fight, and then run to the fight. Massive difference, and massive advantage.
I also think there should be an automatic recovery of soullight, after all, last years sins are easily forgotten in the dog eat dog-world of Neocron. Wouldn't it be natural that someone with low sl who stops doing bad things will drop off the NCPD radar? I mean, I wouldn't want the gain to go any higher than say -16 or -20, but enough to drop you off the ncpd list.
Oh well, that's all for now, hope the game is back up =)
...snip...
So what you are saying is, it is not only ok, but expected that a fully capped 100 SL player should kill the 0/2 noobs that are created with 10 SL because it is low?
Without trying to come off as a complete ass-- Haven't you been playing this game for about 3-4 weeks in total now? Do you have a character with an LE out? Have you PVP'd at all? What is your depth of personal experience with PVP, and the soullight system in Neocron?
If player B attacks player A, I would see their act as being a good samaritan. You're dealing with an individual who has aggregated negative karma for themselves through their actions, careless or not.
You may consider that individual to be a good samaritan, but the SL system clearly doesn't.
Look, killing anyone should be an act of gravitas and weight, on one hand, killing a player with little or negative soullight is just that, it's killing a dangerous element that disregards the lives of other people. We call that a hero.
Again, why is it that the SL system punishes the 100 SL player for killing the allied -5 SL player if they are a hero?
I appreciate your thoughtful comments here, but I'm afraid your short tenure doesn't lend you much, if any, expertise or ethos.
now, for real, Divide: what you are lobbying for is easier PvP, fighting with a smaller danger of penalties. fine. i believe everybody is ok with the idea as such. and NC has a lot of battle areas available, namely all outpost zones. its just, youd appreciate fighting within city limits, too. even among friendlies. hm, why not. the tiny problem here is: how would you want to regulate non-consentual PvP? Imagine a situation where i'm a capped tank, while youre a half-baked allied or neutral un-LEd PE, we meet in pepper park, and bang, youre dead. What penalties would you like to confront me with, for that act of senseless violence? how would you balance that? would you rather get rid of SL and have everyone keep the LE in until woc'ed? are you interested in the whole situation, or is your individual fun at PvP all you care of? please tell us.
What I'm lobbying for is multi-fold:
1- Acknowledgement that the existing SL system is plagued with many, many flaws.
2- Fleshing out the flaws, one-by-one, and determining what the root of the flaw is.
3- Actions that make sense to the community and devs to address each of the identified flaws in the game's best interest.
4- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8GGL0qGk5lA I'm the defendant, you're the prosecutor, SL is drunk duo being questioned. Maybe this should have been my first and only comment.
you chose not to discuss but keep making various claims. a part of your rights as a free citizen, i suppose. good thing i never signed any paper so i'd have to take any of that serious. my conclusion: you got an idea, and cling to it, ignoring whatever else there may be. i believe this will work pretty good in both directions.
I'm not prepared to launch an entire revamp of the SL system by myself at this point. It's not that easy as you well know. Solving a problem is more about understanding the issue than blindly setting forth any type of change, which you both seem to think I want, and expect of me.
So what you are saying is, it is not only ok, but expected that a fully capped 100 SL player should kill the 0/2 noobs that are created with 10 SL because it is low?
I'm a 16 soullight noob. I've never taken out my LE. The LE is very well explained in the beginning of the game in the MC5 area, it's not entirely easy to get out of MC5, without either knowing what's going on, or having previous knowledge.
If you're a noob, or savage murderer, with 10 soullight without an LE in, you made that choice, no matter what.
You put yourself in that system, you exposed yourself to that responsibility. Nobody forced you to remove your LE, and I'm sure if for some reason it was forced, either game bug or other serious problem, then I'm certain you could go to GM's and staff for help.
Your entire example is just not possible unless a new player was tricked into removing it--which hey, if they're new and still at a lower level, they can put it back in--or a person who knowingly removed the LE to enter this system of checks and balances.
Nobody needs to be in a clan, you get plenty of support from your faction and fellow faction members, if that's any reason to remove your LE, the only reason to join a clan is the expectation of getting involved with PVP, as I've never seen any clan focused strictly on RP and being active, which would likely be the only reason I ever remove my LE. (Spoiler, I'm not removing my LE. Period, end of sentence.)
And really, all your closing statement above was directed to me as Ad Hominem. You're considering my entire argument invalid because of my experience with PVP. The conversation encompasses all players of all skill levels, because everyone is going to have to deal with what you are actively looking to change.
And really, all your closing statement above was directed to me as Ad Hominem. You're considering my entire argument invalid because of my experience with PVP. The conversation encompasses all players of all skill levels, because everyone is going to have to deal with what you are actively looking to change.
I'm considering your entire understanding of the soullight system, PVP, and Neocron in general to be so shallow at this point in time (3-4 wks in) that your authority on such subjects is non-existent. Your contribution is appreciated nonetheless.
Drachenpaladin
08-09-14, 12:10
And really, all your closing statement above was directed to me as Ad Hominem. You're considering my entire argument invalid because of my experience with PVP.
This is not how ad hominems work. Refuting a persons qualification on a topic by identifying inappropriate expertise is not an baseless insult. Its simply telling how it is.
However, since there is no set entry level to this discussion and any such would undoubtedly lead to a circlejerk conversation...
To remind you: be kind and polite to each other! A fresh look on things is always good and very much appreciated. Sometimes the more you get used to something, the longer you had to deal with it, the easier it is to miss some of the shortcomings of the system which new players might stumble across.
If the community wants to take the initiative and work out together a complete and fleshed out proposal, then start to do so :)
Either way, the upcoming content patch (the one following the bugfix patch on wednesday) will finally deliver some long overdue stuff :)
Saadow, while articulate, intelligent, and an obvious excellent new member to the community, has no skin in this game now, or plans to in the future. His contributions, while valued, only affect people who remove their LE, something he has declared he will never do.
If someone was never going to ride a motorcycle, would you take recommendations from them as you were designing it? Why would that person even care to contribute in the first place?
As for the community review of the SL system, I would love to see that take place and may have some time to facilitate.
Fairly Divide, I certainly would. Were I in the role of design, I would want an opinion from the individual without any intention to ride a motorcycle, because my goal as a designer is to design something for as broad of an audience as possible, within the confines of the scope of the design itself. If I wanted to design a motorcycle, I would want my motorcycle to be so good and enticing, that someone who had no intention of riding it, would reconsider their position.
Now you brought up an interesting question, why would that person want to contribute? Were I looking for opinions, and found someone disinterested in riding a motorcycle, my approach would be to ask them why they aren't interested in riding a motorcycle, their opinion could be something to consider in the scope of design.
You'll have outliers, individuals with no interest what-so-ever with riding a motorcycle for example. They still may have interesting ideas, worth listening to if they're willing to provide them. So lets look back at PVP? I had a conversation with some people after hours on the IRC server, and I had said, the only thing I'd really consider removing my LE for would be fighting off players in hacknet, it's the environment I care about in my interests of the game. I feel you could empathize with that, as you're a player interested in fighting other players. You have a vested interest then in that system, like I have one in the hacknet system. The two could potentially intersect, especially if we develop more systems that appeal to broader player-base and bring more individuals into the game.
However, I'm also a roleplayer, and any decision that affects the soullight system, the ease of playerkilling, and the locations where playerkilling occurs, will affect me as a character and as a player. If I see violence in the street, I'm going to react, in a broad range of manners. Example: I was exploring the outzone--something I totally plan on writing a post about--and down several levels in, a hostile, high-level NPC began to attack me. I took cover, and I played the scenario out in my head. Finally, I took the initiative and fought back. This kind of scenario is not unsimilar to what might happen in PVP, except the AI and human intelligence are vastly different things. Now, not being interested in player killing, scenarios where players are gunning down each other in the city regions because it were easier, or the soullight system were more forgiving, I'd have to react to that kind of situation. I don't want that to be easier though. I see the amount of copbot presence in these areas and feel that it would be very difficult for someone to not be seen or known considering the level of surveillance technology. I could understand if perhaps in outskirt sectors if the loss in general were more forgiving, because you'd expect violent crime there. I feel that the few who benefit from the situation would be greatly outweighed by the people who would use the system just to make for violence wherever they go.
Perhaps I should have asked a question from a realm I am a bit more knowledgeable as to set the proper scope. I just about asked the question before realizing- who cares.
Not every designer creates something for a broad audience. Some designers create things for a very small audience with very specific needs. They focus on the needs of those whom commissioned them to ensure their resulting product is the proper fit.
Of course, everyone's desire, in the end, is to bring new blood in to the game. Players need new players as much as the game needs new players as much as the devs need new players.
On that note-
Devs know, as the community does, that there are a large collection of players at bay with this game who are patiently waiting for the right time. SL is a factor, and they are clued in.
This game has significant work due to deliver a proper experience which draws a broad player base in. This goes well beyond the soullight system, which would have to be part of the rework no matter how you slice the cake. Improving the systems you have for the players you have is a strong investment in your foundation while you are planning your future.
As an individual with your LE permanently installed, you have no personal stake in the soullight system as we are discussing it. As an individual who identifies themselves as a role player, you have now have immunity in argument. It is unfortunate that the senseless slaying of players in zones you could find yourself in may create such a broad range of reactions that, who knows, you may actually get up and slap yo momma if it gets so bad. That is an unfortunate affliction. It is your gameplay experience, and ours shouldn't impact it in any way at all. Unless you want it to.
On the other hand, think of all of the post-worthy content if you took that stupid thing out of your head and played the other 50% of the game. Talk to Dribble Joy, he runs an RP clan called The Skulls- unless memory fails or something has changed.
btw@Alduin: We're looking forward to these patches. Keep em' comin' :)
Well, I'll fairly devils advocate against myself, as you've taken a step in my direction, I can at the very least do the same for you. I'm sure there are times, just like when the high-level NPC and I had our run-in, and it developed story, that story can develop from conflict with other players as well. However, things can be lost, irreplaceable or difficult to replace belongings can be lost in these conflicts. People can abuse this system and do it with the purposeful intent to damage my enjoyment of this game. I'm not interested in exposing myself to those people, I'm here to have fun, and the few times where combat could be a viable situation to involve myself in, I see combat as being a clumsy arms race. If you aren't a combat-perfect character, your options for viability in a situation against people who eat-breathe-sleep this situation are just not viable. You'd get squashed. I've seen people also abuse the combat system.
What I like is that we've come to a point of agreement, so if I take a step forward, I'll say this: If I could reinstall my LE after level */30, I'd have no reason -not- to take part in the occasional fight if the storyline took it up to bat. Fairly, I feel that should also mean clans should have an option to allow players with an LE chip if they so chose to, as a setting they can change at will, so long as that's a feasible feature for management to include.
So what we have here is a combination of optimal systems, a person can chose when and where they want to expose themselves to murder, people who already made that election gain the ability to go back on their decision, they could stop fighting for a while if they want to socialize, or run quests without risk of injury or loss. Players can avoid losing vital equipment if they're out questing, unless they chose to for the interest of fighting again, and then any improvements to the soullight system would truly be for anybody, opening the floor up again and returning us back to the topic.
I at that point, can share your frustration with someone abusing the soullight system to completely ruin another players experience, just like I wouldn't want mine ruined by taking out my chip and being completely vulnerable to others whims. Because even if I put my chip back in, had I killed someone already and went into such a steep decline in soullight, regaining it is very very difficult!
Edit: same here, Alduin! Though off topic, I can't wait to see the stuff you guys do!
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