PDA

View Full Version : [R#186] T#186-T#197 Patch Discussion



Pages : [1] 2

Alduin
12-04-14, 09:19
Cheers runners,

feel free to discuss the current testserver patch here. Please also post your testresults as requested in the patch notes thread here! The corresponding patch notes may be found here (http://forum.neocron-game.com/showthread.php?155324-R-186-T-186-Patch-Notes).

Slauncha,
Alduin

Bragi
12-04-14, 13:17
I would also like feedback on the 'new' frequency of the weapons. We know they are slower since we removed skill influence on frequency, and although it's obviously not as important as the DMP testing, I'd like to get an idea of how people want each of them to behave.

Dasore
12-04-14, 14:38
1st test with weapons... ionic > all, 400-600 dmg a shot, doesnt matter which character and what kind of ionic
cs does no damage, but the ravager now rapes

Bragi
12-04-14, 15:04
What armour and resist values did you use, how much WEP/HC?

AlvaroT
12-04-14, 15:32
New dialogue is great, but first it was barely visible and when I left PTS room background changed to unknown texture. Black semi transparent rectangle there would be fine.
http://i.imgur.com/kFQyZaN.jpg
Edit: Some clipping occurs when character gesticulates.

slith
12-04-14, 16:21
What armour and resist values did you use, how much WEP/HC?Doesnt matter, it's the ultimate beam of death instagib railgun asmd-combo nuke bfg9000.

Dasore
12-04-14, 16:25
yeah doesnt really matter, tryed pistol (240 pc/ 150 wep) and hc ionic (230 hc/around 100 wep), on spys/tanks/pes.. damage always between 400-600

Bragi
12-04-14, 16:40
OK, I've discovered a problem. Seems something went wrong with the files somewhere. DPM curve is.... not what it should be.

http://i1287.photobucket.com/albums/a626/BragiNC/PTS186_zpsaccb1486.jpg (http://s1287.photobucket.com/user/BragiNC/media/PTS186_zpsaccb1486.jpg.html)

Going to start fixing it as soon as I can.

BlueRobot
12-04-14, 16:43
Also heals as in medikit/healtool/ppu heals are healing WAY too much. PPU heal does about 800 hlt per tick.

slith
12-04-14, 16:50
Please show me a DPM graph with the Ionic Cannon in it somewhere :P

Divide
12-04-14, 16:59
imo leave ionic dmg as it is and remove all ionics that aren't on my account.

BlueRobot
12-04-14, 17:03
Listen to that man, he plays with the best of the best!

Alduin
12-04-14, 17:11
Closing the thread to prevent spam until the issue is fixed

Alduin
12-04-14, 18:29
By the way, not to forget: thanks for the feedback so far :)

Thread reopened. A patch has been applied to fix the dpm curve and also to put the correct, temporary, dialog background in place. Please have a look at the patch notes thread for more details.

To comment on heals: since testing a whole zoo of interdependencies at once will not work out we need to test step by step now. For now we only balanced the classes amongst themselves and therefore the only thing to be tested is PvP amongs the classes themselves, so e.g. spy vs spy, tank vs tank or pe vs pe. Everything else will not be considered valuable feedback! We focus the testing and development of the balancing changes intentionally to avoid having to deal with many dependencies at once. The more you focus testing on PvP amongst classes themselves and the more feedback you provide, the faster we can go on to stage two :)

BlueRobot
12-04-14, 18:47
Even if you look only at PPUs a heal tick of 800 with the current health pool is still way too much.

Bifrost
12-04-14, 19:08
Even if you look only at PPUs a heal tick of 800 with the current health pool is still way too much.

As requested in the patch notes (http://forum.neocron-game.com/showthread.php?155324-R-186-T-186-T-187-Patch-Notes), please ignore this and do not test this for now. Please focus the balancing related testing on fights with the same class: e.g. Tank vs Tank, Spy vs Spy or PE vs PE.

BlueRobot
12-04-14, 23:23
But using healtools/medkits/noobheals on Spys/PEs/Tanks should be taken into account right?

Bragi
13-04-14, 03:25
But using healtools/medkits/noobheals on Spys/PEs/Tanks should be taken into account right?

Anything that is not related to weapon performance is not on the agenda.

jj dynomite
13-04-14, 05:22
Anything that is not related to weapon performance is not on the agenda.

I wonder how many different ways you guys are going to have to say it before everybody finally gets it?!?

Doc Holliday
13-04-14, 05:59
I wonder how many different ways you guys are going to have to say it before everybody finally gets it?!?

I thought the same thing. To the person saying TRUST THE COMMUNITY in a previous thread on balancing info etc; this is a classic example of why you should NOT do this as its pretty clear people dont grasp the simplest of instructions without them needing to be repeated several times.

No mid fight heals. Straight up weapon vs weapon testing. Its not a fight or a duel but rather its a stand still and shoot each other test.

Will try and get on some time to help test.

William Antrim
13-04-14, 08:37
I will get my lab coat and clipboard then.

Sevendust
13-04-14, 10:27
I'm about to get around to testing it, which hopefully the weapon itself isn't bugged, but I just wanted to mention it here as well in case GMs aren't aware of the issue. The Executioner, Spy pistol, has been useless for a long time. It is, and isn't because of the dmg. It seems that the same RANGE effect the fusion RIFLE (Redeemer) has, has always also been affecting the executioner. Where it does little damage in close range, but very high dmg at far range.

As long as the DPM curve is correct for it's TL & the range effect is removed from the Executioner, I'd say the gun would finally be returned to it's glory. Since this pistol is my favorite Spy weapon, along with many others in my clan, I hope this get's addressed in this patch. Anyways, I'll repost in a bit with some data.

*EDIT* Medkits appear to be working fine, 9 health/sec at low health, 5-6 health/sec at 3/4 health.

Regards,
-Cdmlotyo/Kryptonite

William Antrim
13-04-14, 12:18
Having long range pistols is no bad thing. Bear in mind there is the Ray of Last Hope which does have the opposite effect to the Executioner (closer range higher damage). If these mechanics have made it across to Vedeena it is not completely a bad thing.

Pistolers right now are a joke in open world pve - with rebalancing of weapons there might be a way to actually use them for this purpose when they get round to fixing that aspect of NC.

Yes I realise it makes the rifle/pistol not much use in pvp and the balancing is intended to make all weapons good in that aspect but with enough other variety in weapons (judge, beam of hell, rolh, slasher and 3 woc pistols) around the same tl there is still plenty of variety.

I just want them to fix the back up gun tbh.

Sevendust
13-04-14, 12:32
Having long range pistols is no bad thing. Bear in mind there is the Ray of Last Hope which does have the opposite effect to the Executioner (closer range higher damage). If these mechanics have made it across to Vedeena it is not completely a bad thing.

Pistolers right now are a joke in open world pve - with rebalancing of weapons there might be a way to actually use them for this purpose when they get round to fixing that aspect of NC.

Yes I realise it makes the rifle/pistol not much use in pvp and the balancing is intended to make all weapons good in that aspect but with enough other variety in weapons (judge, beam of hell, rolh, slasher and 3 woc pistols) around the same tl there is still plenty of variety.

I just want them to fix the back up gun tbh.

......
#1: Pistols are CLOSE-range combat weapons. Not sniping weapons.
#2: Pistols are not tech farming/PvE weapons, because they're close range..
#3: If you want to snipe in PvE as a PE/Spy, use rifles, not pistols, ..cuz sniping is a LONG-range strategy.
#4: Rifles/Pistols easily match Tank weapons in PvP. Saying they are not much use in PvP is 100% false.
#5: Ray of God & Ray of Last Hope have no damage difference when close or far away. Fusion weapons are the only weapons with this effect.

BUT, yes, un-used/underpowered weapons should be balanced...that's the point of this patch.

William Antrim
13-04-14, 13:15
Im not gonna get into an argument with you about whether or not pistols should be viable in PVE because its not worth losing sleep over. All weapons should be viable at all roles.

I dont know where youre going with the "sniping" comment. There is a difference between engaging at range and sniping.

How would a pistol user level up otherwise?

I have no idea what point you are trying to make with #4 and #5. #4 makes no sense and #5 is just wrong. Sorry.

Drachenpaladin
13-04-14, 14:28
How would a pistol user level up otherwise?

[Edited]

Alduin
13-04-14, 14:41
This discussion is getting off topic! Get back on testing!

Sevendust, thank you very much for the numbers, I'll will have a quick check on them soon :)

Alduin
13-04-14, 15:43
Another patch has just been applied to Vedeena. The damage of different ammo mods has been equalized. The only difference between the different ammo packs is now only the composition of damage types.

Kame
14-04-14, 00:30
Alright so is this here I'm supposed to report problems with the patch ?


Anyways so I was asked to do the fall-damage test on another char, so I used my HC tank instead. Here are the results :


DAMAGEINFO - Time 1300.272 Damage (Kame): WeaponID 0, DmgID 2000, DmgFac 188.726, Energy 18872.559, Effect 0.000, Height 0.000
DamageCause: No weapon!
DamageType: Collision!
INS - FUL: 18872.559

Does that mean I have took 18872.559 Energy damage from jumping over the railing in Pepper 1 in front of the club Véronique ?

If so, something obviously fucked there too. Do these type of problem only occur on the test server or do you generate them in your test environment as well ? Is your test environment different from Vedeena ??



/EDIT

This time I jump over the railing from the Garriot's dinner in Plaza1. Guess what, I didnt die.

DAMAGEINFO - Time 1744.988 Damage (Kame): WeaponID 0, DmgID 2000, DmgFac 1051.719, Energy 105171.938, Effect 0.000, Height 0.000
DamageCause: No weapon!
DamageType: Collision!
INS - FUL: 105171.938

The old fall-damage mechanic still obviously works and if the fall is high enough, full HP is recovered instantly with no damage to body parts. Upon jumping down I was half HP with dead torso for a second, then back to full HP with good torso the instant after.


Now not only falling from ridiculously high doesnt do anything to a runner, but falling from a reasonnable height insta kills. This whole thing is BACKWARDS.

Sevendust
14-04-14, 03:38
This discussion is getting off topic! Get back on testing!

Sevendust, thank you very much for the numbers, I'll will have a quick check on them soon :)

Gooood good. I was hoping I didn't have to re-do that whole data post. lol

One other thing though I forgot to mention on it. I ran into another runner who said everything was lagging for him & he had a high ping. Although, my ping was fine & i wasn't experiencing lag. However, I was seeing some slight stuttering & drop in fps, but I'm guessing Vedeena might be a much older server. ANYWAYS, while testing I noticed every weapon firing much slower than usual. Especially the TL113 AK. I didn't feel like checking to see if the timing was matching the freq of the weapon, so I don't know if it's the weapons, server, or patch causing it.

Also, KAME, this isn't JUST for bug reporting. This is also the balancing project and a work in progress. They need every bit of ->consistent<- testing data. Test the damage & freq of every weapon you can vs another char. Ie: make the numbers consistent by testing all your weapons against ONE character. That way there's no difference in resists from one tested gun to another.

ALSO, which I'm going to do for my tests, is make all resists be 50, & aim at ~50 fire/enr/xray in armor. This should show the most accurate damage differences between the weapons since some explosive-modded weapons do more force than others, more xray than other for high-tech weapons, etc.

Haliax
14-04-14, 14:54
Thank you for your Feedback Sevendust.

Regarding the frequency of weapons I want to quote Bragi's first post in this thread:


I would also like feedback on the 'new' frequency of the weapons. We know they are slower since we removed skill influence on frequency, and although it's obviously not as important as the DMP testing, I'd like to get an idea of how people want each of them to behave.

Please state your opinion on the frequency of specific weapons. Are they too slow? Should they have a different burst behaviour?


Regarding lags:
We are logging a lot of values on the player's end. Stuttering may occure on high frequency weapons because each shot gets logged. You can turn off this behaviour by setting ENABLELOGS="FALSE" in your neocron.ini file.
However it can be very useful for testing purposes so you may not want to deactivate Logging.

AlvaroT
14-04-14, 15:49
For future testers: please check non rare gear too.

gradius
14-04-14, 16:48
All Melee Weapons per first hit.
Tested on two Enemy types.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v249/ikarusclone/NC%20Test/firsthit_zpscb6765fc.png

gradius
14-04-14, 16:58
Flame Throwers need to be tested, I was hitting for 5700 dmg after 3 stacks of fire dot.

Baldur
14-04-14, 18:40
How to level/cap your character on Vedeena:

1. go to Neocronstruct

2. find the altar

3. click the altar and get warped to the ceres temple

4. find "SUPERHARDMISSIONGUY" and talk to him

5. kill the rat he spawns

6. BLING :)

subms
14-04-14, 19:04
So why do skills no longer modify frequency? Everything feels really sluggish now.

Sevendust
14-04-14, 20:57
I didn't have the logging enabled when I first tested. It's just, for example: with the TL 113 AK, the freq showed it firing around every 0.55 secs, but in real-time realllllly didn't seem that way. But like I said in the PM I'm gunna be doing another round of testing, except much more detailed & balanced this time.

aKe`cj
14-04-14, 22:44
So why do skills no longer modify frequency? Everything feels really sluggish now.

Because balancing is exponentially harder with every metric you add to the equation.

Taking away a variable makes it easier to "calculate" a baseline - which is the approach chosen by the NST.

However, I am not sure if just removing frequency will be enough though. For a rebalancing as thorough as the NST apparently aims for, I would believe that you have to strip the system of each and any modifiers, basically make rifle, cannon and stiletto equals and slowly add back the complexity and variation required for a rock paper scissors balancing.

That said, with the many variants/modifiers present in NCs combat system, I doubt anyone will manage to find the perfect mathematical solution. Players are not robots and some metrics can not so easily be translated into numbers. Consider a gun shooting 5 x 40 points vs 1 x 200 points per minute. How big is the advantage gained by a miss only accounting for 40 points?
Both guns are equal in dpm, but not the same in terms of balance.

I do not believe that balance is something you can stuff in a complex formula and be done.
I do hope that the frequency modifier will return and the removal is simply of a temporal nature, to allow for setting a solid foundation.

Good luck to the NST and the testers - guess you'll need it :)

Bragi
14-04-14, 23:36
So why do skills no longer modify frequency? Everything feels really sluggish now.

Inconsistent impact of sub-skills on frequency.

Change the sub-skills and one weapon might gain/loose 5% DPM and another might be 10% (as an example).
Each weapon has a different burst number, shot number, burst frequency and shot frequency. Without completely homogenising the entire weapon range, the effect of sub-skills on frequency means the DPM curve would not scale as sub-skills alter.
With frequency fixed and only the dmg values being altered, the DPM alters the same for each weapon.

As Haliax mentioned, highlight which weapons seem particularly off. I've been doing my own testing and while some weapons operate at a reasonable speed, some are awkwardly slow, but I want to get the community's opinions on the matter.

As for slow vs fast, that's probably a long-term balancing subject. It depends if the ability to time/place the shots of a slow fire weapon does or does not out-weigh the DPM loss from missing a shot/burst and conversely, if the lower DPM loss from missing a shot/burst from a faster firing weapon does or does not out-weigh having to constantly track a target.

Kame
14-04-14, 23:56
I'm sorry to say, but this all seems futile and off the mark.

I have been through what you guys are aiming for, it was called 2.2 and it was the wrong approach. Still baffles me that you guys are using the same Modus Operandi.


We dont give a shit that the damage vs TL isnt consistent. No matter how you change stuff, people are mostly always going to be using the top tier weapon that is easiest to use.

WHAT YOU NERDS DOT SEEM TO UNDERSTAND IS THAT TO ACHEIVE BALANCE, THE GAMEPLAY ASPECT NEEDS TO FEEL BALANCED.

Things like making harder hiting weapons harder to use are what I'm talking about. Take the disruptor for instance. 24 shots clip, highest damage in the non-sniper weapon range, yet easiest to use with 6x 4hits burst.

Basically takes hiting 6 hits to acheive full weapon damage potential.

Compare to the Judge. About 5TL lower. 20 shots clip, 2shits per click. Basically to hit 10shots to acheive full weapon damage potential. And it's damage is also lower...

So essentially you may have better hit/shots fired ratio with the judge but still do lower damage than disruptor even if you hit 50% more than a runner using disruptor.

This is the balance most of my clan wants adjusted, not some nerdy numbers crunching bullshit about how higher TL should do more damage.

Dropout
15-04-14, 00:12
Things like making harder hiting weapons harder to use are what I'm talking about. Take the disruptor for instance. 24 shots clip, highest damage in the non-sniper weapon range, yet easiest to use with 6x 4hits burst.

Basically takes hiting 6 hits to acheive full weapon damage potential.

Compare to the Judge. About 5TL lower. 20 shots clip, 2shits per click. Basically to hit 10shots to acheive full weapon damage potential. And it's damage is also lower...

So essentially you may have better hit/shots fired ratio with the judge but still do lower damage than disruptor even if you hit 50% more than a runner using disruptor.

This is the balance most of my clan wants adjusted, not some nerdy numbers crunching bullshit about how higher TL should do more damage.
This!

Kame, Im depending on you to sort this shit out, while Im busy IRL.. I should get more time in a few weeks though..
So keep it up mate! :)

Bragi
15-04-14, 00:23
Things like making harder hiting weapons harder to use are what I'm talking about. Take the disruptor for instance. 24 shots clip, highest damage in the non-sniper weapon range, yet easiest to use with 6x 4hits burst.

Basically takes hiting 6 hits to acheive full weapon damage potential.

Compare to the Judge. About 5TL lower. 20 shots clip, 2shits per click. Basically to hit 10shots to acheive full weapon damage potential. And it's damage is also lower...

Two things:

If the ease of use was equal for two different weapons (of the same TL), which would you use?

If the ability to use a higher TL weapon was offset by lower sub-skills than with the lower TL weapon and the DPM was accordingly balanced, which weapon would you use?

(Thirdly, the Judge and Disruptor are 15 TLs apart.)

jj dynomite
15-04-14, 00:32
Is there a Good PVE option you would like us to use in testing? I don't have many other runners during my logon times to test with.

Also, can you take a look at poison stacking damage from swamp mobs. It's almost instakill right now.

Finally, can you give a link on how to activate the combat log again, i can't seem to find it.

Thanks NST!

Kame
15-04-14, 01:20
If the ease of use was equal for two different weapons (of the same TL), which would you use?


I choose weapons based on damage and ease of use, in that order. So in your example I'd use the easiest one to use, which usually means they empty their ammo with the least possible clics. If that was equal then I'd decide most likely by damage type (energy, pierce, etc)



If the ability to use a higher TL weapon was offset by lower sub-skills than with the lower TL weapon and the DPM was accordingly balanced, which weapon would you use?

I would still choose the easiest weapon to use in the highest tier of that weapon category, if it makes decent damage of course.


Now if you would tell me, you can choose between fast runspeed or damage...

Now that, THAT, is where the balance we want comes in. That is gameplay balance, and this is what Neocron lacks at this time.

Now if you make all weapons fire at the same rate, along with all runners running at the same max speed... see where I'm getting at ?


/EDIT


Generally the game mechanic feel like they took a turn for the worse with runspeed reduction and now potential firing frequency reduction.

More obvious changes about weapons should be made than wrecking their frequecies. Look at the plasma range for instance:

Judge's ammo clip was shortened by half : unused.

First Love used to be a 4 shots burst and was now put to 2 shots : unused.

You didnt touch the CS : used.



You seem to inadvertantly make the game easier for everyone, and I dont think it's a right approach.
If anything PEOPLE GET BETTER AT GAMES SO YOU GUYS CAN STOP TRYING TO MAKE EVERYTHING EASIER.

Some weapons should be harder to use and ultimately will be used by players with a lot of skills, but the damage should be in line with other weapons else things go out of balance. You should ofcourse give them some bonus of some sort for using a hard weapon but that shouldnt be game-changing.
You should make a weapon harder/easier to use by adjusting the characteristic of the weapons, like decreasing ammo clip size, decreasing burst size, make it's ammo heavy or making it use a lot of stamina.

Some weapons should be easy to use and yet the damage should be in-line with other weapons. These will be the commoner's weapon and will allow that player to have fun while remaining competitive.
Making a weapon easy to use in my opinion is increasing clip size, increasing burst size, making ammo lighter or maybe MAKING IT POSSIBLE TO SEE YOUR OWN HP/STAM/PSI EVEN IF YOURE ZOOMED IN.

This is all very common when talking about PVP games. Again, you guys should stop thinking about that TL vs Damage curve thing too much.

Sevendust
15-04-14, 04:40
As for slow vs fast, that's probably a long-term balancing subject. It depends if the ability to time/place the shots of a slow fire weapon does or does not out-weigh the DPM loss from missing a shot/burst and conversely, if the lower DPM loss from missing a shot/burst from a faster firing weapon does or does not out-weigh having to constantly track a target.

That's why we're here. To tell the GMs how the game is currently. WHat you just said, is exactly how it already is in-game. (if you want my honest opinion, no gun like the disruptor should exist. A fast-closing reticle with a big-long burst that does a ton of dmg? no thx imo. Reduce it to a 3-shot burst.

The other thing is, Kame has a point. No matter what is done for this balancing, ppl, and especially all of Kame & his group, will just use the strongest weapons in the game at the time. of which, will pretty much be the slow-firing, high-dmg weapons. How would you make an opposing side for these weapons? scale the DPM curve from low to high based on length of burst to shortness. If a fast firing weapon's DPM is only slightly higher or lower than a SLOW firing weapon's DPM, that means you would need to hit with 80-90%+ shots of the fast firing weapon to match the slow firing weapon. Wouldnt this make faster firing weapons do a good bit higher DPM than slower weapons? Yes, it sure would, and it would be balanced. How would that be balanced if then someone aimed a fast firing weapon good and did OP damage to ppl?...That IS balance....this is a shooter. If you have a weapon that really requires skill to do good damage with (fast firing) then shouldnt that person be rewarded by being able to do the most dmg?....this isn't a carebear factory.

Also, I'm starting to believe going by the TL isnt the way to go. If you think of someone who has a Rifle Spy, Every.Single.Rare.Weapon he has to choose from, low-tech or high-tech, is a DIFFERENT firing style or frequency. at that point you're already forcing that spy to use something that's among the top 5 highest TLs instead of using the gun he likes cuz it's lower TL & does far less damage in 5-6 secs...Anyway, what I'm trying to get at, is that there should be not much of a difference in damage done in an 8 sec time frame between the lowest & highest TL pistol, rifle, hc, melee, etc. Give people variety. Make useless weapons before now an option if you like it.

Also, take the range effect off the executioner. It's not a sniping weapon. & the effect makes the weapon useless.

PS: still working on the testing. Getting very detailed with this one.

Sevendust
15-04-14, 08:19
http://i242.photobucket.com/albums/ff149/kryptonite1414/lowtech.png

More to come. This is taking much longer than expected.. lol

Sevendust
15-04-14, 09:25
Something to note on the Disruptor: All previous pulselaser rifles fire 3 shots in a burst. Why 4 for the Dissy?
Also, could we make the freezer rares on par with the DPM of TL 100 rares? Using a weapon with OK dmg, & an aiming speed debuff could easily be someone's strategy.

http://i242.photobucket.com/albums/ff149/kryptonite1414/hightechrifles.png

Sevendust
15-04-14, 11:10
Found a slight problem here. While I do believe the fast firing weapons should do the most DPM, I think the gatlin pistols are doing a tad too much.

http://i242.photobucket.com/albums/ff149/kryptonite1414/lowtechpistols.png

Kame
15-04-14, 15:21
(Thirdly, the Judge and Disruptor are 15 TLs apart.)


Now let me take this statement and blow your minds.


The Judge and Disruptor should be able to compete, damage wise, even if they are 15TLs apart.


The reason for this is that giving these 2 weapons a huge damage gap will only contribute to having the lesser of the 2 ignored, at all times, just like it is now.
This is because, in the practical game, a runner using Judge will most likely be a PE with high resist, and the Dizzy will be used by a spy with low resist. The weapon mainskill requirement (and the setups/resists tied to it) will be the main balancing factor here.


In reality the damage output of the 2 weapons should be very close, they are both end-game, rare weapons after all.

I'd even say right now if you take my example the problem isnt with damage, it's with the fact the judge has a stupid short clip and so you reload all the time thus wrecking it's DPM. THIS IS WHAT NEEDS TO BE BALANCED !!! Not the damage vs TL curve...


You cannot simply take elements out of context and expect to acheive balance.



Do you guys even consider reload time in your DPM curve calculations ?

I havnt seen that value anywhere in your charts yet it is a determining factor.

slith
15-04-14, 17:36
This is because, in the practical game, a runner using Judge will most likely be a PE with high resist, and the Dizzy will be used by a spy with low resist. The weapon mainskill requirement (and the setups/resists tied to it) will be the main balancing factor here.

Thats why resists/implants/shields/speed/clipping/heals - the whole defensive aspect - needs to be looked at first. Not DPM. You are working on something you need to work on again at a later point. And as all of the above posts already explained, TL should really not be the main factor in DPM calculation.

Bragi
15-04-14, 17:39
Also, could we make the freezer rares on par with the DPM of TL 100 rares? Using a weapon with OK dmg, & an aiming speed debuff could easily be someone's strategy.

We are still pondering what to do with the freezer weapons. Don't worry about them at the moment.


Found a slight problem here. While I do believe the fast firing weapons should do the most DPM, I think the gatlin pistols are doing a tad too much.

There are two things here.
Firstly, the displayed frequency values are not that precise. It's old code that we have yet to update. I know this doesn't exactly help you guys when testing, but the raw instant damage values we can compare to our own theoretical data.

Secondly,


Do you guys even consider reload time in your DPM curve calculations ?

Yes we factor reload times. These are not factored in the displayed frequency values unfortunately.
This means that high RoF, short clip weapons like the gatlin pistols seem, from the ingame data, to be overpowered.


The Judge and Disruptor should be able to compete, damage wise, even if they are 15TLs apart.]

And they will do.

The DPM curve is for a given set of combat sub-skill values. As sub-skills alter, so does the curve.
Once the other implant/armour changes are sorted out, a player using a dissy will have lower sub-skills than a Judge user (if all other setup factors are equal) and thus the same DPM.
Or they may choose to have the same sub-skills as the dissy user, have a lower DPM, but higher defences.

The changes we have just made are to that base DPM curve and we want to make sure it's working.

Kame
15-04-14, 17:44
Thats why resists/implants/shields need to be looked at first. Not DPM. You are working on something you need to work on again at a later point.

For once, I agree with Faulk.


On the weapon topic also, the balancing needs to start from the lowest end-game weapon available, which in turn means you need to look at PEs first. If you dont use PE as baseline, you will never be able to balance them properly.

You guys need to make up your mid about which non-rare weapons can be used on the end-game PE setups, and then balance other weapons and classes around that. NOT THE OTHER WAY AROUND AS YOU ARE DOING CURRENTLY.


Then weapons characteristics needs to be looked at BEFORE you change things lile damage.

In my opinion all the works you guys did for balancing in this patch is useless and needs to be rolled back, because it obviously created more issues than anything else (heals, fall damage)

Alduin
15-04-14, 21:22
Is there a Good PVE option you would like us to use in testing? I don't have many other runners during my logon times to test with.

Also, can you take a look at poison stacking damage from swamp mobs. It's almost instakill right now.

Finally, can you give a link on how to activate the combat log again, i can't seem to find it.

Thanks NST!

We once had a shooting range setup on Sparta. I'll bug the responsible people to set one up on Vedeena as soon as possible also :) and we'll notify everyone once that's done :)

We will also look at the stacking damage. At the moment it seems like I might have forgotten a factor 1/60 there.

Concerning the combat logs: head to your Neocron folder, open the neocron.ini file and append: ENABLELOGS = "TRUE" at the end. Once you want to disable it either remove the line or replace TRUE by FALSE.

Slauncha,
Alduin

William Antrim
15-04-14, 22:58
What's wrong with buffing pe armour later on? Absolutely nothing actually.

Sevendust
15-04-14, 23:14
Seems to me that the certain few posting here dont know the current problem with weapons..

*Creed & Healing Light = Dmg isn't registered sometimes when someone moves in between you & your target between the start & end of the burst, -or- if your target was not in front of you server-side.

*Executioner = Has the same range effect as the fusion RIFLES & does little damage up close.

*Judge = Seems like a 50-70% chance NO damage will register if 1 shot out of the 2 shot burst misses.

*First Love = Seems like a ~40% chance NO damage will register if 1 shot out of the 2 shot burst misses.

*APU spells = Seems like a 50-60% chance the spell will take twice as long to cast when you had a lock on your target

*Ray of God & Ray of Last Hope = Similar effect as the creed & healing light where no damage is registered.

Among these are 4 high TL spy weapons, & 3 acquirable PE weapons. & pretty much all APU weapons. These are the things that need to be FIXED so people have more options to choose. While I understand the LoS problem with the creed, HL, RoG & ROLH isn't an easy one & has been attempted to fix, there has to be something somewhere in a past patch that can help explain what caused these weapons to START doing this. I do know though, APU spells started doing this after the APU aiming change. At the very least, APU spells & the executioner should be easy fixes.

Kame
15-04-14, 23:21
Well, the PEs and hybrid being the in-between to standard classes, it is much simpler in my opinion to balance those first.

Think about it for 2 minutes and you might understand my point :

Theyre gonna fix their linear TL-damage curve for weapons and then realise that, say, the Tangent Plasma Cannon is not usable on a PE because its TL being so low compared to CS so it will not be viable.
Effectively it is about 20 TLs under CS so its damage (considering a linear TL-damage curve) will be about 1/5 lower than the CS.
Now in the practical game, a self-buffed HC PE and tank's resist are very similar, so the HC pe will do dramatically low damage compared to the tank.

Same logic applies to hybrids.


I imagine the team that did 2.2 tried something similar to what these guys are trying right now and it gave the results we hae now. Hybrids are shit, and so are PEs.

Sevendust
15-04-14, 23:43
Problem with ammo:
*Laser pistol powercell & laser pistol high-voltage powercell both have the same damage.
*Freezer pistol ammo & Freezer pistol max damage ammo both have the same damage.
*Raygun pistol ammo & Raygun high-frequented ammo both have the same damage.

Bragi
16-04-14, 00:49
In my opinion all the works you guys did for balancing in this patch is useless and needs to be rolled back, because it obviously created more issues than anything else (heals, fall damage)

The changes are not final, we know there are problems with aspects outside those that we want to test to begin with.

Also, we are aiming for weapons of TL75+ for PvP viability. This is mostly the lower limit for PEs. Other classes we are looking at TL95+.


Well, the PEs and hybrid being the in-between to standard classes, it is much simpler in my opinion to balance those first.

PEs and Hybrids are not 'pure' classes. They draw too much from other areas that they are not the base-line classes, but the exceptions and harder to compensate for.


Theyre gonna fix their linear TL-damage curve for weapons and then realise that, say, the Tangent Plasma Cannon is not usable on a PE because its TL being so low compared to CS so it will not be viable.
Effectively it is about 20 TLs under CS so its damage (considering a linear TL-damage curve) will be about 1/5 lower than the CS.
Now in the practical game, a self-buffed HC PE and tank's resist are very similar, so the HC pe will do dramatically low damage compared to the tank.

Again you are assuming too little will change. As we have repeated all too often, more will change than you think. Discount what implant and armour values the game currently offers. Forget what Psi benefits the PE currently gets.
It is all up for change.

The DPM/TL curve is only linear from TL75 onwards; the DPM drop from 105 to 84 is less than 18%.

Sevendust
16-04-14, 01:22
Some things to note: #1: Why is it that none of the pistols, low-tech or high-tech, are above TL 113?
#2: Again, executioner (All fusion pistols) needs that range effect removed for it to be useful.
#3: plasma pistols appear to be fairly balanced, though they could use a tiny damage increase & the not-registering-dmg thing to be fixed.
#4: With all these rare pistols being lower TL...why not spread them out a bit? Make the slasher a Spy weapon like it used to be (higher TL). Bring the executioner up to being TL 115?

PE weapons are mainly the ion shotgun rifle, termi, pain easer, tsu assault rifle, tl 92 pulaselaser pistol, judge, crossbow, Ray of Last Hope, Ray of God, freeman, slasher, IAR-47, etc. anything up to TL 108.

http://i242.photobucket.com/albums/ff149/kryptonite1414/hightechpistols.png

Sevendust
16-04-14, 01:38
PEs and Hybrids are not 'pure' classes. They draw too much from other areas that they are not the base-line classes, but the exceptions and harder to compensate for.

I completely agree with the PEs not being pure. The jack of all trades class. Almost tank-like armor, decently high INT & CON, access to defensive PSI spells, etc. Ie: I currently have a PE that can resurrect, use blessed protector & deflector, & PSI shield, but can only use up to TL 97 weapons (with a drug going). As it stands PEs are pretty balanced. They just need the plasma pistols, fusion pistols, assault rifles, and shotguns to be fixed. (Terminator used to do ALOT of force when force-modded. Now in 2.2 it doesnt, even though armor was changed so there's less in each part of the body, & PRC was divided so resist force is a completely seperate resist now. Yet, the termi...and pain easer does less dmg than it used to somehow.

HYBRIDS on the other hand, are barely even useful in PvE. I used to be a main hybrid in 2.1. I dont get why they were nerfed further from what they used to be. O.o:
#1: Implants were changed so hybrid setups were near impossible, AND this also screwed main ppu & apu classes. Ie: level 3 chip that used to give +15 apu or ppu & a negative of ~7 to apu or ppu, NOW only gives +10, & a negative of 8 to apu or ppu. And the RARE PSI implants? lol giving a bonus of 7.69??? every other class gets 15. and a negative of 6.5 on the rare psi imps???....you see what I'm getting at with this.
#2: Greatly increasing the negative to damage % on spells from having points in the opposite combat COMBINED with point #1, completely screwed over hybrids.

If the negative is lowered, and the PSI implants are brought back to be equal to rifle/pistol implants, how they used to be, hybrids would be a possibility, and PURE apus & ppus would be alot easier. Also, this wouldnt make them OP in any way. Still killable by anyone 1v1, and would basically be a PSI version of a Private Eye at OP wars. (No ability to antibuff or antiheal, and PE-equivalent dmg) I can link my 2.1 Hybrid PvP video showing how evenly matched I was vs 1 PE if needed....


Now in the practical game, a self-buffed HC PE and tank's resist are very similar, so the HC pe will do dramatically low damage compared to the tank.

That's where a blessed damageboost comes into play. I tested on TITAN during these tests, and my LIB did 147 instead of 122 after applying a blessed damageboost. Also the PE can stealth. ALSO, if you're going to compare a class, compare it to all classes and not just one.

Tino
16-04-14, 03:15
There is no way they bring back hybrids (if we cant get the weapons balanced its gonna be impossible for hybrids to not be OP again), it would just end up being messy...we should focus on balancing weapons and pure skills like apu (which is a useless class outside of pve atm)

The way they used to balance in nc1 was find the weapons that needed changing and change that weapon to be better in pvp. Whether that is increasing clip size, increase damage, increase frequency, etc...if all the weapons are changed there is no way this will succeed without problems. Get the pvp weapons the community wants to OP fight with on the same level and then as a whole decrease all their damage, etc.

Really the question is what weapons need to be beefed up to be viable in pvp? What weapons does the nc community want to play with again?

Everyone knows I love the dissy =) but it for sure needs to be decreased to 3 bullets like the non rare mini dissy. Also maybe decrease the clip size so they have to reload more often.

Good Luck to the volunteer team on this venture...it literally holds the life of nc in its hands 0.o

<3 Tino

Kame
16-04-14, 03:24
Also, we are aiming for weapons of TL75+ for PvP viability. This is mostly the lower limit for PEs. Other classes we are looking at TL95+


That sounds logical, but in the actual game I dont think it is. No one uses a TL 85 Tangent Lightbringer. (I'm no game programmer, but perhaps epic weapons could gain the damage bonus from epic status instead of streamlining their TL with other weapons TLs)




The DPM/TL curve is only linear from TL75 onwards; the DPM drop from 105 to 84 is less than 18%.

Thats almost 20% !!!

Also your graphic here (http://forum.neocron-game.com/showthread.php?155245-New-Patch/page3) shows that your intended TL/damage curve for P#186 gets linear at TL49. Link to thread (http://forum.neocron-game.com/showthread.php?155245-New-Patch/page3)

Look at Termi vs BHG.

TL87 Termi (8 744.33)

TL113 BHG (10 160.58)

(TL gap (26) is about 23%, in your example TL gap (21) is 20%)


20%, again. 1/5. Thats a LOT in a pvp game.



Im no game programmer or mathematician or anything but you guys asked for our opinions so I'm gonna say right now that I highly disagree with what you guys are proposing.

Regarding this :


Again you are assuming too little will change. As we have repeated all too often, more will change than you think. Discount what implant and armour values the game currently offers. Forget what Psi benefits the PE currently gets.
It is all up for change.



This sounds like a Evolution 2.2 rehash to me. People got used to the game in the state it is, and now you guys wanna redo the wheel all over again ??

I would personnally advocate for small, incremental changes to other aspect of PVP than the DPM/TL ratio. I dont want to have to re-learn the game again and Im sure Im not alone thinking this way.




To me, this is wrong :



The DPM/TL curve is only linear from TL75 onwards; the DPM drop from 105 to 84 is less than 18%.



If anything, at first tought, it feels like the curve should be linear within non-rare weapons only. Once you talk rare and EPIC and WOC, adjust weapon by weapon.



Also you guys need to think about things like ammo clips and burst size before you do the damage thing. The ammo clip size and burst size should be adjusted first, and should be standard even across rare and non rare. It sucks using a 32 ammo TPC or a single beam shot laser rifle. I have a shit ton of stuff to say about game balancing but no time to put it down on "paper". Sorry guys.





So seriously guys please dont go ahead with that patch right now.

Kame
16-04-14, 03:57
Been on test server for 10 mins with Tino. Definitely a problem with stack damage.

Sevendust
16-04-14, 04:52
Woah, a whopping 10 mins...

Btw, Termi is a PE weapon (TLs up to 105 for their graph).

@Tino, Hybrids weren't OP in 2.1 to begin with.

Also, you can't seem to read what the GMs are saying. That this is basically ALPHA testing for the balancing. This is stage 1 of maybe 5, BEFORE everything is done on vedeena & it goes to Sparta to be tested for final bugs/problems.

Where the hell is everyone at on the balance patch everyone's apparently been waiting for? O.o

QuasarSee
16-04-14, 07:53
Damage Output only a joke?

i have test an Tank with Creed, TT TL 75 Epic Cannon, HC is at 239, when i skill higher i have no really resist ...

Damage with the TT Epic Cannon only 202?!? Creed only 400. On the Retail Server i have with 250 HC an Output up to 544 without a ammo mod.

i think thats is the wrong wrong way to Balance NC, please dont nerf the Damage output so heavely down.

a TL 115 Weapon have to deal Damage like about a big fat Hammer, not like a Teletubbie.

Sorry for my english

Brammers
16-04-14, 12:07
Kame - you need to chillout and stop stressing. If you actually read anything properly from the devs, this patch is probably one step in the whole balance process and your posts seem to demonstrate you not read or undertood anything they have said.



I would personnally advocate for small, incremental changes to other aspect of PVP than the DPM/TL ratio. I dont want to have to re-learn the game again and Im sure Im not alone thinking this way.


So what you are saying is you want the game balanced but don't want to re-learn the game again. It's almost like saying you want to keep your current choice of overpowered weapon.

Any game that does a rebalancing or a patch forces players to re-learn how to play it. If you didn't have to re-learn how to the play the game whether the changes are small or big, wouldn't the game become....boring?


Been on test server for 10 mins with Tino. Definitely a problem with stack damage.

So you spent a whole 10 minutes testing? ....Wow! So you spent a lot more time writing all these posts full of whine that the NST is doing it wrong.


I have a shit ton of stuff to say about game balancing but no time to put it down on "paper". Sorry guys.

I guess we won't see any more posts from you. It's been interesting reading the posts from QuasarSee, Sevendust and a few others who have actually tested and provided figures and feedback to support their views and arguments. I've seen nothing concrete from you at all.

So when you come back with decent evidence to support your arguments, people may listen to your arguments. And also give the NST a fair chance and something useful to work with. This is the first step in the balancing process, not the last step. Also remember 2.2 balance was never even finished properly.

Sevendust
16-04-14, 12:45
Damage Output only a joke?

i have test an Tank with Creed, TT TL 75 Epic Cannon, HC is at 239, when i skill higher i have no really resist ...

Damage with the TT Epic Cannon only 202?!? Creed only 400. On the Retail Server i have with 250 HC an Output up to 544 without a ammo mod.

i think thats is the wrong wrong way to Balance NC, please dont nerf the Damage output so heavely down.

a TL 115 Weapon have to deal Damage like about a big fat Hammer, not like a Teletubbie.

Sorry for my english

Creed is high TL, & does rediculous dmg on Titan. It kinda actually needs a nerf. As does the dissy.

& This balance is actually the opposite of your thinking. No more of this "use this or that" OP weapon boringness. With everything about the same for the class's choices, the "big fat hammer" dmg is going to be done by those who can aim well.

Kame
16-04-14, 13:44
10 minutes of testing is better than none at all.

You guys should be glad I put in time instead or dissecting my post and trying to demonize what I say.

My opinion about the game is as valid as the next man's and has it's place here.


Besides, everything on that server is laggy and for me, even the login screen : When I rezz myself, my char gets up about 5 seconds after the rezz spell is done on my rezzing computer.
Also simple stuff like jumping over a rail or droping down a mountain killing runners doesnt help.
The first day I went to test it took me about 30mins to find someone to poke me after I died dropping 10 in-game feet. Ultimately I had to log on IRC to have a GM poke me on the test server. Shit like that doesnt make it easy to help, I spent 30 mins setting a char up.
Most of the time, actually testing takes me 1/3 of the time it takes to set something up on that server. Doesnt feel good at all.


Also, most of my clan doesnt give a shit about the test server, the balancing, or the game at this point in time. They are ready to move on to other games and desert NC. If you play EST, you probably already noticed the population drop by 2-3% on weekdays evening. Were not as active as we were a month ago.
We havnt had an OP fight in about 2 weeks.
My clanmates have valid points about whats being done wrong and I believe those points are voiced in my posts.



If you dont listen one bit to the pvp crowd, youre gonna lose it, just as in 2.2. We're telling you the approach you take is wrong, dont disregard it.

RUn3
16-04-14, 14:31
First off.
All you tradeskillers need to be quiet sit down, while the actual pvpers talk about the pvp aspect of the game.
When the time comes for the mob balancing you can have your say. :p (no but seriously listen to the people who's played this game for about 10 years.. We actually know a thing or 2 about it.)

As i stated previously making this game linear and smooth is not the way to go, atleast not when it comes to rare and woc weapons, they need to be fine tuned individually otherwise you're gonna end up with the good pvpers using max dmg harder to aim weapons, and the newbs with the less damage ones.. guess who's gonna win and who's going to yell cheat, hacks, reported, ect.

I am aware that this is not the final patch and it's by far not ready ect. ect.

But Kame is right. The last attempt at balancing this game ended up in a clusterfuck of turdballs.

Don't fuck this up by taking the easy way out.

Tino
16-04-14, 16:32
Seems like everyone is afraid to hear the truth from real pvpers like Kame (he did win the most recent pvp tourny put on by 17th)...when was the last time we saw brammers in an OP fight? just saying...dont start attacking other runners because of the time they spent testing or what they think of the direction of the patch. I personally think all these dumb charts ppl are posting on this thread are a waste of time lol. Find the weapons that need to be changed and change that specific weapon to be useful again...thats the only way to approach this without failing.

THEY WILL NEVER BRING BACK HYBRIDS GET OVER IT!

Trivaldi
16-04-14, 17:20
Let's lay off the personal stuff and stick to the discussion at hand please. That goes for everyone in this thread.

William Antrim
16-04-14, 18:54
You cant go about "buffing" this weapon or "nerfing" that one because it is what the people who played the game at the time wanted. That was the KK way and look where it got them... bankruptcy. People bitched and moaned about stuff and they gave in. They changed the game, those people quit and now look at the game.

If you start changing weapons one at a time to what you think is right you will never get it right. When an architect designs a house he doesnt say to the bricklayer "just chuck a few bricks here and a few more there, if that doesnt work just put another on top".

NC is in the same predicament at present. It literally is rewriting the rulebook on pvp for this game. You cannot let human bias come into that just because you like a weapon and someone else prefers another one. In years to come other people will hopefully pick up nc, what happens if they prefer the Blade of Ceres? They wont come here and go HEY BUFF THE BLADE OF CERES ITS NOT BALANCED!!!! Come on man. Lets look at the big picture here.

I am no maths genius but the balancing by the numbers is the only way to go here. Everything in this game is done by the numbers. All the skills add up to 300. If thats not done by the numbers then what else is?

So if you take a specific classes primary skill (100 for 3 of em) then they should be able to put out around the same equivalent amount of damage if their skills (under the hood) are the same. This is the kind of balancing the team is trying to achieve. There will be variations on this amount of damage but if the player has X strength/dex/psi and Y RC/PC/APU/HC/RCL etc then they should give out Z damage. If that RC/PC etc blah blah is lower they will do lower damage. This step one of a MASSIVE process.

They already said on multiple occasions that if things need to change they will change. If subskills need to move there is the potential that they move if it serves the game best.

I cite the subskill resist force for example. It is currently in Strength, yet all the other subskills are in Constitution. This could easily imbalance force modded weapons due to some players higher or lower "reserve pool" of points to spec for resist force. PE (dex based) for example doesnt need Strength for much so he can spec high resist force and pierce resist. The Tank (hc/mc) needs his Strength points for his HC but he doesnt need his dex as much as the PE does (only needs TC and agility).

So you see if classes have "spare" skills currently whats to say they dont adjust imps/armour to compensate for these higher/lower amounts.


At the end of the day the dpm balancing will give one thing. The TTK. This is what most FPS games balance their guns on. Time To Kill. How long does it take to put that guy down with this weapon. In nc they are gonna need to factor in resists whereas most FPS games do not need to worry about this as players dont have resists, they have a standard amount of health etc.

So when DPM has been balanced - or arrived at something they feel is roughly balanced they can move on to the Armour/Resist issues. When that is done they can measure the TTK. When that is roughly the same for ALL classes you have balance.

When you have balance, you have NC.

Please, tell me I am wrong.

Kame
16-04-14, 19:13
In order to lay a solid foundation for weapons, in my opinion it's best to adjust things like burst/clip size BEFORE you even start looking into DPM.

Just like when building a house, a certain order MUST be retained. You dont start by shiming stuff right away because it might need more shims when other parts putting weight on it.

To me, starting with DPM is like starting with the windows and doors.




In my opinion again, it's also best when runnin any type of long term project to be able to get the small stuff that wont need touch up out of the way.

Who knows, but that small stuff might even be delivered before the rest of the project if that small stuff is deemed solid enough, thus satisfying part of the demands right away.

Kame
16-04-14, 19:49
I have a lot of love for this Neocron game. It is, after all, my favorite PVP game and has been for the last 10yrs or so.


I worry about the future of the game and stuff like the DEV team not even having their facts together as a whole makes me cringe. Just look at the statements below, how does one guy says linear at TL75 and yet the intended graph shows TL49 ???



Also your graphic here (http://forum.neocron-game.com/showthread.php?155245-New-Patch/page3) shows that your intended TL/damage curve for P#186 gets linear at TL49. Link to thread (http://forum.neocron-game.com/showthread.php?155245-New-Patch/page3)




The DPM/TL curve is only linear from TL75 onwards; (...)



Why dont you guys put the whole roadmap for balancing up for discussion (With full details even) ?

Im sure the community would have great input, and it'd be nice to know where we stand right now vs the timeline of the whole balancing act.

William Antrim
16-04-14, 20:01
Because everything we think we know about nc has been flattened and they are starting from scratch. Hence why a linear yardstick is needed. You need a start point (we have one - absolute zero) and an end point - the highest TL weapon. Everything inbetween is up for discussion/change.

For all we know they could change the tls of all the guns again as sevendust (I think) mentioned.

Nothing is set in stone here. Everything is up for discussion, hence why you need an unbiased, completely open and honest transparent yard stick. Thats the DPM curve.

If you start thinking about pistols as a separate entity, or rifles, drones or even melee everything starts to deviate from that. So many other factors come in to play (TC affects high tech weapons, FCS affects psi but in a different way, melee doesnt "reload" as such but uses stamina boosters instead etc etc).

That is why you have to start at day 1 week 1 and work up. This stage isnt even in the practical. They are still developing the plans.

Thats how I see things when I read through the notes of this patch. Its a fuckin godsend of a patch because it is just the first step. It is not smashing souffle with a sledgehammer, the KK way.

Strife
16-04-14, 20:06
I'm with kame on a majority of what's been said. especially laying out more of the details. The feedback in this thread has looked very helpful. I just feel like this inner circle shit needs to stop. It's been 10 months and THIS is all that has been done? You have a community of players, some being here over a decade. Use us or lose us.

Bragi
16-04-14, 20:07
Been on test server for 10 mins with Tino. Definitely a problem with stack damage.

We've spotted this too. A fix is being thought up (we're not sure if we can get the stack damage to scale like instant damage does; either we get it to do so, or stack damage from player weapons is removed and I know that isn't what many people want).

William Antrim
16-04-14, 20:17
If it was up to me I would get rid of it. Pure burst damage is better.

Kame
16-04-14, 20:18
We've spotted this too. A fix is being thought up (we're not sure if we can get the stack damage to scale like instant damage does; either we get it to do so, or stack damage from player weapons is removed and I know that isn't what many people want


Isn't there already a working stack damage on Titan ? Use the same functions/code/config then !!

Tino
16-04-14, 21:11
You think KK went bankrupt because they changed specific weapons that were OP or useless to balance out fighting? You must have not been around for the nc2 days...because to me that is when the downfall of neocron happened, not nc1. If you go around trying to make everything linear again certain weapons and setups will continue to be OP...people will still complain that only certain setups are used. Best way to balance weapons is to take a weapon like the dissy and make it 3 shot burst and reduce clip size...then go on to the next weapon and make changes that will make it a contender vs the dissy....obviously im talking about weapons that are close in TL.

William Antrim
16-04-14, 21:26
Been here since the early days of retail NC1 Tino and nc2 as well. A lot of things made kk go bankrupt. The botched retail release of nc1 started the game off on a bad foot, then NC2 getting delayed, botched and delayed some more. Pops dwindled all throughout. Anyway that is all just speculation with each of us expressing our opinions. None of it helps anything today.

The problem with your solution is what happens when you get past weapons that are within 1 or 2 TLs of the level of the disruptor? What happens when you want to balance a Wyatt Earp for example? How do you do that? You cant just pluck a scale out of the air based on tl115 - tl88 and then go oh hey look give it -27 damage!

If you DONT go around making everything linear how do you expect to achieve balance? Balance is just that - equal forces/mass on either side. If the game is balanced then ALL weapons are viable. If you want slightly higher damage you go for a slightly better gun but it will cost you slightly more in terms of your defence. If you have high skill level (your offence essentially) and you think you have good movement skills and knowledgeable and solid con set ups (defence) then you can trade off some damage versus some more resists. Or if you want to play a damage soaker you stack the high defence at a cost of damage output and soak up the damage the other guy is giving you with lower damage output but you win the war of attrition essentially because although your damage output is lower your aiming skill will compensate and you can achieve the maximum damage output of your weapon over that given time.

One set up will not conquer any other one, thats the whole point of variation. Some people will take more damage, others will dish more out and therefore be able to kill others faster. Either way it will come down to who has the best aim to keep a lock on the other guy. That guy wins the fight.

you understand what i mean?

Dropout
16-04-14, 23:02
You think KK went bankrupt because they changed specific weapons that were OP or useless to balance out fighting? You must have not been around for the nc2 days...because to me that is when the downfall of neocron happened, not nc1. If you go around trying to make everything linear again certain weapons and setups will continue to be OP...people will still complain that only certain setups are used. Best way to balance weapons is to take a weapon like the dissy and make it 3 shot burst and reduce clip size...then go on to the next weapon and make changes that will make it a contender vs the dissy....obviously im talking about weapons that are close in TL.
Im actually against reducing clipsize.. Wouldnt a increase of freq be more fun?
I know I personally love fast freq weapons.. (Gimme back my good old Slasher damnit! :p )

Tino
16-04-14, 23:45
If you want the Wyatt Earp to be used in pvp then it needs to be changed too...increase frequency? change the damage type it does?

Bragi
17-04-14, 00:20
Isn't there already a working stack damage on Titan ? Use the same functions/code/config then !!

It's not so much that it works or that the damage is an 'acceptable' amount. The stack coding itself has not changed, only the values behind it (in the situation on Vedeena, erroneously).

Lets take two hypothetical examples.

One weapon does 50 instant damage in a given amount of time and 50 damage from stacks in the same period.
Another does 100 instant damage.

The issue is that if the stack damage is not affected by skills, then if the instant damage of these two weapons is changed by (for the sake of argument) 10%, then the first weapon is changed by +/-5 damage and the second by +/-10 damage.
Lower sub-skills favour the stacking weapon, higher sub-skills favour the instant damage weapon. We want all weapons to be equal regardless of sub-skill amount.

A comment was made about the various stages we are working with. Trying to focus on one stage is intended to limit discussion to that specific area - we can't be talking about everything at once. However, explaining what we are doing without giving a wider context is obviously not helping.
Tomorrow I will write something up to give you a broader picture of what we are hoping to achieve and why we are starting with what we are starting with.

Until then, I think it would be best to clear up something: The phrase 'DPM' reads as far to rigid and absolute. What we really means is Proportional Damage per Minute.
The values are only for a given combat sub-skill amount. It's the shape of the curve we are currently testing.
The DPM totals will change according to the sub-skill totals a character has. More on that later though.

Dropout
17-04-14, 00:40
A comment was made about the various stages we are working with. Trying to focus on one stage is intended to limit discussion to that specific area - we can't be talking about everything at once. However, explaining what we are doing without giving a wider context is obviously not helping.
Tomorrow I will write something up to give you a broader picture of what we are hoping to achieve and why we are starting with what we are starting with.
Looking very much forward to that! :)

BTW: Bragi, are you lead on the balancing project or something? You seem to be the only one replying to things regarding the balancing.

Bragi
17-04-14, 01:05
Something of a complicated question. I can't really say too much about our internal structure. Alduin would be in a better person to respond to that, though I don't know if he would say any more.

I just probably have more spare time at the moment, and while Haliax and Alduin are highly fluent in English, my comfort with the written word as a native speaker means I can convey things in a more precise manner (supposedly).

jj dynomite
17-04-14, 01:32
Pistol Test using the minimum requirements in PC skill and capped, non-implanted PC skill.
Dex & Int = 100
Weapon Lore = 175
No Implants or Armor
Non-Modified Ammo
Non-Slotted, full Artifact weapons

http://i.imgur.com/FDWhvsE.jpg

Kame
17-04-14, 03:01
A comment was made about the various stages we are working with. Trying to focus on one stage is intended to limit discussion to that specific area - we can't be talking about everything at once. However, explaining what we are doing without giving a wider context is obviously not helping.
Tomorrow I will write something up to give you a broader picture of what we are hoping to achieve and why we are starting with what we are starting with.


Cant wait to see that.




The issue is that if the stack damage is not affected by skills, then if the instant damage of these two weapons is changed by (for the sake of argument) 10%, then the first weapon is changed by +/-5 damage and the second by +/-10 damage.

I understand this.
However in the actual game right now, our setups are made around the fact that we want aiming cap (250%) on our weapons, so we spec a lot of main combat subskill because main combat subskill affect aiming efficiency. Right now in this game, if you dont have 250% aiming on your weapons youre under par as far as competitive pvp goes.

We optimise a lot on how DEX, STR or PSI and even INT points are spent. This makes each setup individual. While I can understand this seems hard to get full control over but really I think this aspect of the game is essential. It is part of what makes NC what it is.




Lower sub-skills favour the stacking weapon, higher sub-skills favour the instant damage weapon. We want all weapons to be equal regardless of sub-skill amount.

Wait what ?!!?

You guys want to make it so as soon as you hit the required skill you cap the damage on the weapon ?

You want to eliminate the main combat subskill influence on damage ??


Please tell me I understand wrong.

Dropout
17-04-14, 03:06
Wait what ?!!?

You guys want to make it so as soon as you hit the required skill you cap the damage on the weapon ?

You want to eliminate the main combat subskill influence on damage ??


Please tell me I understand wrong.
I think you understood it wrong..
The way I understood it, is that the stacking damage (the DoT) isnt effected by weapon skill.
Which would lead to weapons with stacking ammo would be great for low weaponskill (since the DoT is at a fixed amount), but would be bad if you had a ton of weaponskill.

Thats how I understood it anyways.

Kame
17-04-14, 03:16
Just eliminate the main combat subkill influence on STACK damage ??

Wait thats already what it is, and its deemed a problem...


This is the statement :




Lower sub-skills favour the stacking weapon, higher sub-skills favour the instant damage weapon. We want all weapons to be equal regardless of sub-skill amount.

Divide
17-04-14, 03:40
Say one thing about the NC community, say they fight tooth and nails for what they believe is right.

William Antrim
17-04-14, 09:30
I think maybe you're trying to read too much into a simple statement Kame. I took it to mean that all weapons should be as good as each other up and down the scale.

Sevendust
17-04-14, 10:33
I worry about the future of the game and stuff like the DEV team not even having their facts together as a whole makes me cringe. Just look at the statements below, how does one guy says linear at TL75 and yet the intended graph shows TL49 ???

Why dont you guys put the whole roadmap for balancing up for discussion (With full details even) ?

Im sure the community would have great input, and it'd be nice to know where we stand right now vs the timeline of the whole balancing act.

....Because TL 75 is where the PvP weapons start. (Epic mission weapons) The GMs aren't stupid. They actually KNOW what the "pvp weapons" are. Hence, why they said TL 75. Letting you know from the epic weapons and up.

Anyway, yall can complain all yall want. The weapons are going linear, which means no more "best weapon for spies" - "best weapon for PEs" etc. No more OP'dness at all. End of discussion.

THOUGH, i definitely agree the dissy should be shortened to a 3-burst, and should be done before this DPM balancing is finalized. As I mentioned in one of my previous data-sheet posts, all prior versions are 3-shot bursts.

William Antrim
17-04-14, 12:58
This was always going to be a divisive issue. I think we all knew that. It is an issue that is very close to all of our hearts.

Dasore
17-04-14, 13:00
who are you person above me? @sevendust

Before there is any dmg changes there needs to be other shit fixed first.

1) Stack dmg on the right weapons/spells (toxic/firebeam, devourer and other flamers, single shot lowtech pistols, pumpguns)
2) right weapon behavior, like disruptor 3 shots/fl 4 shots/executioner more dmg in close combat etc
3) tell the community exatly what the plans are... i see no point atm in testing sth cause everytime i login sth is shit, stackdmg/ionics etc
4) some weapons seem to hit though shilds harder than others... why is that? i only say disruptor 4 example atm on retail

i dont mind spending some days for balancing but i see no point in posting sheeds here with dmg vs mobs/none moving players. in a real fight eveything is different, how fast is a burst, can i swarp to stealth or put away the weapon for faster runspeed, how fast can i aim, is the weapon missing more with a open crosshair or not, take the cs atm, u dont need to have to close the crosshair on the opponent cause most of the time 3/4 bullets hit and even the ones that dont hit do dmg. Some bullets get lost when running around a corner, plasma/laser, and others hit instant, ak for example.

/flame on

Kame
17-04-14, 13:50
What I've been desperatly trying to say, in my very own clumsy way is

START BY BALANCING GAMEPLAY ASPECT BEFORE YOU EVEN TOUCH WEAPONS/ARMOR/IMPLANTS.

Gameplay aspect are more important than numbers for competitive PVP.

Were all gonna use the most powerfull weapons at the end of the TL ladder anyways.

Tino
17-04-14, 13:54
Have y'all never seen the Lion King? It's the CIRCLE of Life...not the Linear of Life!

You think these problems with the weapons occur because of damage...no sorry its because there are flaws or problems with the weapons themselves and the way they work. Its been like this forever and still no changes made...how many years will it take to finally listen to the community and fix the aspects of certain guns that cause them to be nerfed in pvp...like creed/ravager not registering damage on an enemy that is running, dissy needing to be 3 burst, first love 4 burst, increase shot frequency on wyatt earp to equal BHG, increase damage for freeman and xbow (or give xbow some stack damage), etc

(most wont agree on the changes I proposed up there but they are simply examples and my opinions)

All it is going to take is some dedication and listening...instead of this broad thread there should be an entire thread on specific weapons that will allow us to argue about ways to make them better in pvp.

Tino
17-04-14, 14:04
Can I point out that one of the reasons people give up on neocron is because they do not want to level characters up to woc just to be able to fight...I know that is why we are trying to change the weapons but maybe we shud look at making neocron double xp all the time so its easier for people to level...at least on the old server everyone had everything with maxed out characters so the only thing left for them to do was pvp...it was easier for noobs to get their hands on weapons, money, etc...look how many people were playing before this new server and when the new server dropped (I remember around 20%)...now look at the population once this server had time to mature lol...I realize making leveling and getting slotted weapons hard appeases the tradeskillers that play this game but look at what that does to the population...now your left with a game that sees 6-7% and no one fighting...just trading all day =)

IF YOU WANT TO FIX NEOCRON WE NEED TO FIX THE BROKEN OR OUTDATED ASPECTS>>>PEOPLE PLAY NEOCRON FOR THE PVP NOT THE PVE!

Drachenpaladin
17-04-14, 14:16
PEOPLE PLAY NEOCRON FOR THE PVP NOT THE PVE!

Nope.mp3

Tino
17-04-14, 14:29
Yup.mp3

OP fighting has pretty much died on the server and look what happened to the population...

Dropout
17-04-14, 14:53
Yup.mp3

OP fighting has pretty much died on the server and look what happened to the population...

Yup..
Honestly, only known PvP'ers should be allowed to have a voice in the balancing project.

Drachenpaladin
17-04-14, 14:56
Yup..
Honestly, only known PvP'ers should be allowed to have a voice in the balancing project.

Now that would be a circle jerk of epic proportions...

If you self-declared "pvp" folks would stop smelling your own brain-farts and get out of your ivory tower people would maybe start taking you seriously.

Tino
17-04-14, 15:10
Now that would be a circle jerk of epic proportions...

If you self-declared "pvp" folks would stop smelling your own brain-farts and get out of your ivory tower people would maybe start taking you seriously.

Please do not start with personal attacks =)

William Antrim
17-04-14, 15:15
The problem is as I stated already that buffing guns on a case by case basis as you gents keep asking for is not going to give any weapon any advantage over any other. It is simply going to give us an even bigger mash up of the problems we already have. Wiping the slate clean (as is being done) is a clearly logical way to do it because it is the only proper way to approach the situation.

what if a mechanic was introduced the same as monks have at the moment - half reticle closed and you do half damage per gun - across all classes? this would solve one problem of unequal damage but it would cause outrage among some people. It would cause mayhem (not necessarily of the mike variety) among certain circles in the game. This is just one suggestion, just like the ones you guys have thrown out. But each of these suggestions has further deeper consequences to make certain guns overpowered or underpowered.

Ok so what if we did away with reticles altogether? That might appease some and others might cry outrage. Again its just another suggestion.

The point is you cannot just carry on saying YOU SHOULD DO THIS.... to stuff. It needs a wide open transparent plan of action that everyone who has an ounce of experience can chime in on. That way the suggestions can be evaluated, sanity-checked, picked over discussed and then possibly torn apart.

this is later on in the development cycle. This patch was never going to fix things overnight. It was and is the start of something new. Until such time as a scheme is fixed - this dpm balancing is just that - then there is no point looking at individual guns because you do not know where they fit in to the big picture.

Tossing out ideas and implementing them just for laughs is A) a waste of DEV time and B) the easiest way to make a new overpowered weapon system.

A template needs to be formulated with a rigid set of rules to stick to up and down the tech level tree. Anything other than that is just pure chaos and therefore a pile of shit that nobody wants to deal with.

Drachenpaladin
17-04-14, 15:41
Please do not start with personal attacks =)
Can't help but already feeling personally attacked by such kind of segregative and discriminating bile:

Yup..
Honestly, only known PvP'ers should be allowed to have a voice in the balancing project.

Kame
17-04-14, 15:42
William you do not read what others post. What Im saying is :

ADJUST GAMEPLAY MECHANICS RELATED TO PVP BEFORE YOU EVEN START LOOKING AT NUMBERS.



Think about it for one minute, if after you have made the DPM/TL curve linear, lets say you remove 1 shot from a weapon burst... Gone is the linear curve, need to redo again !!!

#brains

Tino
17-04-14, 15:46
Will obviously thinks game play mechanics don't need to be fixed lol

Trivaldi
17-04-14, 16:03
Think about it for one minute, if after you have made the DPM/TL curve linear, lets say you remove 1 shot from a weapon burst... Gone is the linear curve, need to redo again !!!

#brains
With the new system at the foundation of all of this, that would automatically be balanced to compensate. The team would then fine tune the automatic value to ensure it fits in as expected. No drama. #CalmDown

Let's be clear here...

With our (the NST) Balance Project we're building to a point where we can make these fine adjustments to individual weapons that everyone is shouting about. In an ideal world we would be bringing less useful/powerful stuff into contention. We'd also be toning down stuff which is over powered with minor tweaks but (it's a big but!) we still have the issue of a less than ideal foundation. Up to this stage we have managed to wrangle certain weapons back into line on Titan, things such as the Disruptor are now far more well behaved than they were. While we have done that, it was far more complex to make those changes than it should have been. For the sake of analogies I'd want to call it a rotten foundation but it's not that bad, the problem is that things are still significantly less than ideal.

We're fixing that foundation to make as solid a foundation as we can, then we'll be adding the layers back in, ending up in a place where we can easily tweak balance while also bringing a lot of diversity back to PvP. Ultimately that does mean there'll be a certain amount of re-education, just this time it will be how to spec for the weapon you want. Which you'd expect from any balance change. Not how entire new features work (like nanites and extra bits of armour).

To be absolutely clear about a reoccurring issue/problem/point:

Right now you're not testing that Weapon A is effective in PvP, or that Weapon B feels like it should be beefier or should fire faster or should have a larger clip. While we do want your comments on those things, what you're testing with this patch right now; is that the numbers we put in on our end match what come out on yours. That the foundation and corrections to our tools/Neocron's code work as expected and intended. We need to make sure issues in the under lying systems have been fixed (which is where the time has gone) and that issues in our assumptions from the first balance test (what we launched on Sparta) are corrected.

In short, right now: We're making sure you get coffee out of the machine and not tea when we fill it with coffee beans.

Bragi's post later on will give you a much wider view of where we're going. Regarding the argument about always simply using the highest TL weapon for the highest damage. That's not how it's going to work. Bragi's post later on will probably expand upon that. You'll end up with a far more varied system which lets you spec your character based on your tastes, not just because "Weapon of the Minute" is the defacto weapon for your class.

MODERATION NOTE: Stick to the facts, drop all the personal stuff and get back to constructive discussion. Those who fall out of line will see themselves on holiday from the forums for a few days.

Edit: To stop anyone panicking, I'm not on the balance team and have nothing to do with balancing PvP. I'm just familiar with the project internally as I'm nosey. :p

William Antrim
17-04-14, 16:04
No I just think that your idea is flawed tino and i am giving reasons why behind it.

Kame as for your suggestion.....


#brains indeed. If you remove one shot from the burst then all you need to do is make the others do an equal amount of damage that the previous burst did.

If a weapon has 4 shots and you remove one but it used to do 100 damage then you can make it do the same damage over 3 shots (ok to make it divisible by 3 we would make it do 99 damage....). Problem fixed.

Simple maths.

Making all weapons hit all the time with a closed reticle IS the biggest issue I think you guys are trying to get at underneath all of the arguing. If thats the case then yes I agree completely. It doesnt retract from the fact you need a template though.

I think you will find you cannot argue with that logic.

Tino
17-04-14, 16:16
I just want all the bugs fixed that prevent certain weapons from being used in pvp...you cannot argue with that logic.

William Antrim
17-04-14, 16:21
We all do. Thats the whole point. Everybody wants the same end game. Everybody just has different views of how to get there. I just dont think the mad professor approach works.

Powerpunsh
17-04-14, 16:28
Edit: waitin for Bragis post. :)

Torg
17-04-14, 16:32
a discussion going nowhere, like so many times before. back to topic.

the current project/subproject is something that has never been tried before in the history of this MMORPG: getting statistical data as a basis for balancing, instead of tweaking according to guesses. NC was created and modified by a ridiculously small team (low 20ish headcount) and on an insecure financial background. Reakktor didnt die because of any ingame going-ons, but because its mother company 10tacle died by failed projects unrelated to KK. Bad luck. As i told you before i was working for (that-time) distributor CDV before NC was released and kept in touch with the matter for quite a while. By then they were discussing PvP as "endgame content", which was seen to be over-emphasized by parts of the the player community just because of the lack of other "endgame content". Because, you know, Neocron was written as an (MMO)-RPG, where you would level up through missions, trading and hunting, until... well, Neocron is still an unfinished game. Even DoY was supposed to be creating more endgame content by pitting 2 alliances against each other, instead of mere clan wars. We know this didnt work out perfectly. Since the "endgame content" didnt grow significantly, many players left, so mostly PvP-people are still ingame (youre welcome, dear guests).

What we need to do now is getting more data on all aspects of the game. The lore sung at the postnuclear hearthfires by seasoned PvP-ers is sadly based on individual and anecdotal experience and therefor may or may not apply to the majority of players. I think some of you (Kame?) already pointed this out. So we should be happy that the "scientist faction" within our community (i.e. brammers, sevendust and other NCnerds) are working on that.

I for one would have plenty of time after recovering from an over-exhausting election campaign (meatspace assignment) if not a serious case of eye surgery (retinal detachment. Status: fixed and recovering) did limit my screentime. It may take weeks or months until i'll return to active duty (i.e. pew-pew). In the meantime i shall contribute forum content occasionally, at least. So i'm counting on you to ninja Vedeena and harvest more information on our common arch enemy, the lich lord of leisuretime boredom, instead of getting into brawls over personal preferences in playing styles.

Tino
17-04-14, 16:51
getting statistical data as a basis for balancing, instead of tweaking according to guesses

Who says statistical data is not gathered before any changes are made? Any changes that have been made to a weapon in the past I guarantee have had statistical data run for them. I agree that a base line should be made but that is AFTER the bugs for each weapon have been fixed and each weapon is in working order...so your telling me lets get base line statistical damage data for a broken weapon? Hahaha...the values are just gonna be screwed up once they decide to actually fix the weapon after the fact.

Tino
17-04-14, 17:01
Lets spend all this time getting baseline statistical damage data using broken weapons...I promise that will not lead to broken baseline data =)

jj dynomite
17-04-14, 17:12
Pistol Test using the minimum requirements in PC skill and capped, non-implanted PC skill.
Dex & Int = 100
Weapon Lore = 175
No Implants or Armor
Non-Modified Ammo
Non-Slotted, full Artifact weapons

http://i.imgur.com/FDWhvsE.jpg

Edit: Forgot to mention that this was VS Launcher Clops

Bifrost
17-04-14, 17:15
Who says statistical data is not gathered before any changes are made? Any changes that have been made to a weapon in the past I guarantee have had statistical data run for them. I agree that a base line should be made but that is AFTER the bugs for each weapon have been fixed and each weapon is in working order...so your telling me lets get base line statistical damage data for a broken weapon? Hahaha...the values are just gonna be screwed up once they decide to actually fix the weapon after the fact.

Any bugs you know about with the weapons, please open a new thread in the bug reports forum (http://forum.neocron-game.com/forumdisplay.php?233-Bug-Reports) - Thanks.

Tino
17-04-14, 17:27
There is no point in opening a new thread for bugs that have been known for years...for example the ravager and creed not registering damage on a moving target

Bifrost
17-04-14, 17:39
There is no point in opening a new thread for bugs that have been known for years...for example the ravager and creed not registering damage on a moving target

Please don't assume that we know about the bugs, even if the bugs have been known for years. The more bug reports and information we get, then there is a better chance of us developing a fix.

Tino
17-04-14, 17:50
Your right I did assume this was common knowledge since the creed and ravager have not been used in pvp for a loooooong time...can I ask a serious question? Do the GMs even play NC?

jj dynomite
17-04-14, 17:55
I use Creed and Rav all the time on moving targets without issue.

Maybe we can discuss we can go back to discussing the patchnotes and the testing on this thread like we're supposed to be doing.

Tino
17-04-14, 18:20
You really think the creed and rav don't bug damage on moving targets? Creed has not been used in OP fighting since its release...I laughed last time I saw someone using a ravager in OP fight...this is important towards the patch because if we do not fix these issues all the damage balancing will be a waste of time that give false data.

RUn3
17-04-14, 18:25
I use Creed and Rav all the time on moving targets without issue.

Maybe we can discuss we can go back to discussing the patchnotes and the testing on this thread like we're supposed to be doing.

I hope you're joking.
It's a known fact that all beam weapons are bugged, and every 4/5 shots doesn't register, meaning it's useless for anything other than PvE.

Ryan Steiner
17-04-14, 18:30
When did you guys test the bugged beam weapons the last time ?

According to the patchnotes from the last retailpatch this issue has been fixed in R#184-185:
http://forum.neocron-game.com/showthread.php?153262-R-184-R-185-Patch-Notes



Reworked state synchronization of weapons, this should fix issues like e.g. a different number of hits registering on the server- and client-side

RUn3
17-04-14, 18:38
Next someone is gonna come in and say: Hey i have no problems with the Executioner, i hit every shot every time.. And its not bugged at all.
It's broken as hell.. Doing more damage further away but also missing a lot, and a lot less up close.

In regards to the linear TL curve.. Ok let's see where it takes the game, afterall it's still in the early testing, yes?
And apparently there's no way around it.. So good luck with it :)

RUn3
17-04-14, 18:41
When did you guys test the bugged beam weapons the last time ?

According to the patchnotes from the last retailpatch this issue has been fixed in R#184-185:
http://forum.neocron-game.com/showthread.php?153262-R-184-R-185-Patch-Notes

Come on.. Do you even play the game?

Kame
17-04-14, 18:44
#brains indeed. If you remove one shot from the burst then all you need to do is make the others do an equal amount of damage that the previous burst did.

If a weapon has 4 shots and you remove one but it used to do 100 damage then you can make it do the same damage over 3 shots (ok to make it divisible by 3 we would make it do 99 damage....). Problem fixed.

Simple maths.


Why make simple when you can do complex huh ?


If you guys think :

1- streamlining weapons
2 - then fixing characteristics
3 - then re-streamlining

Is better than simply :

1 - fixing characteristics
2 - streamlining weapons



See what Im saying ? Bad approach.

Kame
17-04-14, 19:10
When did you guys test the bugged beam weapons the last time ?

According to the patchnotes from the last retailpatch this issue has been fixed in R#184-185:
http://forum.neocron-game.com/showthread.php?153262-R-184-R-185-Patch-Notes


Most beam weapons are still broken, especially when used against fast moving target on a fast moving runner (shooter).
It seem standing still for a second as you shoot helps a bit.

This is the reason why no one uses plasma wave, the whole beam laser weapons range, the whole fusion weapons range nor the whole raygun weapons range, in PVP.

This is the stuff want fixed BEFORE we even discuss damage figures or anything.

William Antrim
17-04-14, 19:51
Bug reports it is then.

hudsonbeck
17-04-14, 20:09
Why make simple when you can do complex huh ?


If you guys think :

1- streamlining weapons
2 - then fixing characteristics
3 - then re-streamlining

Is better than simply :

1 - fixing characteristics
2 - streamlining weapons



See what Im saying ? Bad approach.

I honestly don't get how some people do not understand their approach.

They are not trying to "streamline" weapons. They are trying to standardize one common element. This is the "foundation" they are talking about. Without standardization there is nothing to begin balancing on... With standardization making changes individually, by group, or type will be less complicated, more precise and much quicker.

I have no idea how the NST has the patience to continually try and help certain people understand. Some people just wont allow themselves to be open to information other than what they believe to be "true."

Stop cluttering up the thread with bullshit and either:
1) Do the specific testing they asked for and provide the results.
2) Move on to a different thread and leave this one alone.
3) Take a break from the forum or game and see how things pan out.
4) None of the above options, but stop creating additional work by cluttering up the test data.

Kame
17-04-14, 20:34
I provided test data, did you ?

I propose solutions, do you ?

I play pvp in NC, do you ?


I understand all too well what they are trying to do and I disagree. Its my legitimate right to voice my opinion here, this is what this forum/thread is for.

Dropout
17-04-14, 21:09
You really think the creed and rav don't bug damage on moving targets? Creed has not been used in OP fighting since its release...
Not completely true.. :p

When the Creed was released it was (by far) the most used weapon at opfights - it could drop spies in seconds..
And it stayed like that untill a netcode change (or something like that).
After whatever change it was, it and all other beam weapons became useless in PvP.

hudsonbeck
17-04-14, 21:23
I provided test data, did you ?

I propose solutions, do you ?

I play pvp in NC, do you ?


I understand all too well what they are trying to do and I disagree. Its my legitimate right to voice my opinion here, this is what this forum/thread is for.
I actually work during the week. I am on the test server right now. I will be sure to put in my time... surely more than 10min

When I am asked for information or input I gladly express myself constructively. However, I do not try and shove my opinion down anyone's throat.

I have been playing NC PVP and PVE for over 12 years... You? There have been many far more knowledgeable and skilled than you or I during that time my friend.

If you truly understand it then you have little understanding of problem solving. Do you repeatedly fix the same thing over and over or do you provide an all encompassing solution applied to the root cause?

I am simply saying, Stop arguing and causing clutter in the thread. They have a method and are asking for data. obviously they have read your posts and understand your points. you cant ask for more than that...

Back to testing....

Sevendust
17-04-14, 22:23
Now that would be a circle jerk of epic proportions...

If you self-declared "pvp" folks would stop smelling your own brain-farts and get out of your ivory tower people would maybe start taking you seriously.

& they all have the same opinion. & they have always used the "OP weapon" everytime they've played the game it seems. (Kame, divide, tino, & Strife are all clanmates)

Tino
17-04-14, 23:15
That is a personal attack tbh....please remove him from forum!

Kame
17-04-14, 23:18
In my opinion, the foundation of weapons isnt the damage they inflict.

The foundation of the weapons is the concept which was on paper before said weapon even existed.

Things like :

Single shot or AOE.

Direct damage or stack.

Single bullet, or burst.

Reticule relation to shot accuracy.

Runspeed with/without weapon drawn.

Clip size and reload time.


If the weapons do not obey the intended concept for which they were created for, their foundation is ruined.

I.e. No matter how much you tweak the damage/freq on the weapon, is something is wrong with its design it will not be used in-game by much, nor can it be deemed "competitive" or "in line" when compared to the "working as intended weapons".
In some cases, it can even be OP compared to the rest.

Now a couple of years ago, the weapons foundation was ruined by some people running a re-balance project to neocron. The reload fuction was altered, and many weapons clipsize and burst-size were also altered and since then, they have been "broken".

As Tino said, probably better than me :


I agree that a base line should be made but that is AFTER the bugs for each weapon have been fixed and each weapon is in working order...so your telling me lets get base line statistical damage data for a broken weapon? Hahaha...the values are just gonna be screwed up once they decide to actually fix the weapon after the fact.

r3yka
18-04-14, 00:01
I sympathize with the plight of the DEVs and I'm content with their (voluntary) efforts to better the game. reading along I see Sevendust. William and the gang have offered up some great input so far.

With that in mind, what some of what Tino and Kame et al have been saying does make a lot of sense too, about fixing the broken nature of some guns before balancing the damage output, as part of making the platform from where to move forward, one that is solid. These ideas however, are not necessarily mutually exclusive, so let's try not to make this in to two binary schools of thought, because everyone's input is valued here, and the combined input is what will shape the game for the better.

In addition, we're still waiting on a tell all post about the nature of the fixes planned, so this could well have already been in their plans to begin with! At the end of the day, this was always going to be a subject that would draw heated responses, as the changes at hand have the potential to rock the very wastelands we all stand upon. These things are good though, and are a necessary part of the idea generation process, and it shows that people do give a damn


my 2 cents would be to think about the elitist nature of some of your posts though, as it seems to alienate yourselves from the rest of the population, when we should be banding together. whether we PVP or PVE or tradeskill we are still a community that is dependent on one another in game, and in situations like these.

jj dynomite
18-04-14, 00:22
Can you take a look at Grenades? They seem to be very off with range and accuracy. I know we aren't supposed to be testing this, but it's hard to test damage when you have to stand next to the enemy to get the grenade to hit.

Bragi
18-04-14, 00:54
Right then.

I won't give away any details, especially since many of them are still in the concept phase and have yet to be estimated, let alone under internal testing, but here's an over-view of the various stages we want to go through as a generalisation (unless Alduin comes along and says it's wrong :p).

Let's bear in mind that nothing will ever be 'finalised'. Everything will remain subject to change and re-evaluation. This is particularly true of latter stages that deal with aiming ease, class roles and things like OP fight balance.
The exact order (especially 5 onwards) may not be precise either. There may be some backward-and-forwarding and potentially if we find ourselves in a dead-end, going back and re-working a previous stage completely.

I'll start with some aims we have been working for:

Viability of as many setups at end-game as possible.
Which weapon a player chooses (above our mentioned TL75) and their offence/defence choices should not impact on their ability to compete.

Increased viability of characters without top-end equipment and increased ability of near-capped players to engage in (end-game) PvP.
The necessity of some items (especially certain implants) excludes too many people, especially the casual player. Top-end players will still have an advantage, but it needs to be small (an example might be between the level 3 implants and the rares/MC5s, and the current necessity of WoC in many areas).

A viable role for each class in both solo/small-scale team PvP and large-scale team PvP (such as OP fighting).
Arguably this is the hardest, most subjective and long-term aim for all the different classes to have a role of some kind in all forms of end-game PvP.


So, to our stages (or at least something resembling them as the whole process is intended to be agile and flexible).

1: Proportional DPM setting.

Here we work out how the weapons relate to each other regarding DPM and TL for a given set of sub-skill values and make sure they are all following it.
These are not fixed values for each weapon, but a base proportion that will scale equally.

2: Sub-skill effects on DPM.

Here we want to make sure that the two directions a player can increase DPM (increasing weapon TL and increasing sub-skills) are of equal value. This may be tricky as we have to get the same TL or sub-skill change to give the same DPM change regardless of the starting/finishing values of both.

3: Implant rework (including power armour).

Here we want to generate the variety of setup choice and ensure the basic viability of each setup.

Each implant is an improvement. Rather than thinking about the final setup as the normal, taking the unmodified base and think about each implant as part of the setup choice.
All the talk I have made about TL vs sub-skill changes/choice relates to this area (which admittedly may have been a bit confusing).
As a very broad generalisation, implants may fall into one of several categories:

Offensive (DPM increase) - Further split into main-skill and sub-skill (a big problem since late NC1/NC2 has been the non-choice resulting from the high level 'do everything' implants, this will aim to bring back some of the choice available in the early days).
Defensive - Those that increase resist and/or armour values.
PvE/Tradeskill/Other - Those that don't directly relate to PvP.

You are then presented with at least three routes to improving a character's performance and/or the ability to choose a weapon you like and build a setup around it in multiple ways.

It might also be where much of an attempt to give near-capped and capped but casual players without access to high level items the ability to remain more competitive by reducing the difference between the level 3 implants and the 'level 4/5' rare/MC5 items.

Power armour (and underwear), aside from the armour values provided, modifies main and sub-skills, so it falls into the 'implant' catagory.

We would also like to explore the sub-skill effects of resists on the actual % damage reduction and health pool.
A discussion of the impact of to what extent speed affects the performance of a setup would be good too (how exactly do you equalise a DPM or defence change with an ath/agl change?).

4 (maybe 3.5): Armour.

Here we set the values for the various armours and as importantly, their requirements.

Stages 1 and 2 are very formal in their mathematical approach.
While 3 and 4 are tied to this in that they must provide a means for viability with that data, they are not so formal and are sorted in a way that is more meaningful and useful to players.
One big problem currently is that the values on armour and implants are currently TL dependent, rather than being what those values need to be for those using them. Eg. there is no armour set for a PE at around Str 64 (which might be reached with a drug or +Str implant to improve their defence value) and if there was, the armour values/type might invariably not be appropriate.

5: Inter-class balancing.

While the above might be all well and good, the actual balance between the classes (the combat ones at least) might not be equal.
Gentanks have a 100 cap combat main skill, the highest health, the highest resists and the highest armour. Monks have a 100 cap main skill like the Gentank and Spy but lower defences than both.

Do we introduce specific class-based DPM and/or defence modifiers? Do we fudge class-specific armour and implant values? Do we introduce class specific tools and abilities?

This would also be where we look at the (currently) under used aspects of each class, such as Psi for the PE and Spy. It could also be an opportunity to look at what could be done with Psi Resist in general.

We would mostly likely seek to harmonise the ease-of-use for the weapons at this stage (or after stage 2).

6: Team level PvP.

Just because the DPM/defence balance of the main combat classes are sorted, does not mean team based PvP will be. Will high-DPM classes dominate for example?
What do we do about the necessity of certain classes in PvP?
Is a mix of classes an ideal for this area? A WoW-like situation where a mix is a necessity only adds a degree of forcing of what class people play, but should a team of 10 Spies be able to compete directly with a team of 3 PEs, 2 PPUs, 3 Gentanks and 2 APUs?
If a class performs correctly at a solo/small-team level but not an OP fight level, how do we get them to be useful there without breaking their small-scale performance?

If you want some clarification, just ask.

Powerpunsh
18-04-14, 01:47
edit: damn i should refresh pages before posting forgotten posts. ><

edit 2:
You dont have much space in point 5 if you equalize the damage of all weapontypes based on its TL. :p

btw: is it possible to deactivate drugflashes on the testserver? They interrupt my testings.

MayhemMichael
18-04-14, 02:13
words


This is pretty much everything i'd like to see and a great direction for neocron. Using the TL curve to adjust damage output per gun is a good baseline start but i still feel every weapon in the end will need to be adjusted. If not, everyone will just use highest TL that shoots the fastest and easiest to use. Making every class useful in op wars is something I would love to see, especially APU's. Giving them Antibuffs and fixing what ever is wrong with beam weapons.. (bugged casts, frequency, damage)

r3yka
18-04-14, 02:41
Sorry in advance, because I know we're focusing on the DPM section for now, but I can't help myself, as I find it important given that other areas up for change have come to light.

In terms of the APU/PE ordeal (the most unusable classes), could it be possible/viable to have a set of PE only weapons, like the swat gun/rifle area, that weren't so strenuous on dex, and did reasonable damage, but still less than that of the spy/tanks/APU counterparts, as the true masters of their weaponry, who have sacrificed other elements of their game to be so.

The reason why I say PE only, is because this eliminates the possibility of spies just using a 4 resistor chip set up pwning with low TL weapons, or tanks running around with massive con doing the same. (Well, i'm not sure if that's even a bad thing?) was just thinking in terms of adding this parameter because at the end of the day, it is the PE that needs the boost. could say that the weapons aforementioned required someone that was equally adept in the ways of Int, Dex AND Str to be able to wield the weapons, as a way of making it fit the class role, possibly leading to the creation or alteration of a weap or 2? o0

The reason why i say low dex, is because this will allow the PE to put either psi/str imps in, allowing access to different spells/armor ideas you speak of. Other options could be PE friendly armors/ or increasing the psi abilities, anything that will steer the PE into the direction of being a genuine jack of all trades.

Regarding the APU situation, the last time I really saw them in action was when I last played in 2004/2005 so I'm not too sure how OP or not they were during my AWOL period. Last I played, APUs were all over the place, and were pwning pretty hard and right now, it's very very much the opposite. they definitely need some kind of boostand my thinking is to their damage output. I would say they are weaker than spies, and don't have stealth tools, so this should be compensated by being able to dish out some nice DPS, atleast to the standard to be able to compete with their counter parts. I would even argue that they should be able to out DPS them by a small margin given their fragile nature. I'm sure this could be done by re-configuring the effects of the reticle malus and/or boosting the DMG outputs. Maybe even giving them back their coveted anti-buff, making them real contenders in OP fights (maybe too much so?) possibility of making the anti-buff capability so that only 1 shield drops, like the PPU non-rares? hmm

IMO, using pros and cons, the balance of play in OP fights looks, and in terms of the APU/PE, should look like this

PPUs - fine as they are, the back bone of the OP fight providing much needed TLC.

Gentank - pretty much fine as it is too, Capable of withstanding and dealing high dmg, cannot offer useful OP War services such as hack, no stealth tool, no psi capabilities, therefore fully dependant on PPU, but can also take a fair smack without one (this should include melee tanks too, lol)

Apu - should ; be Very weak, No defensive psi capability , very high DPS, can hack for the team, can possibly anti-buff

Spies- Fairly weak, very evasive, can hack, high DPS, very useful all around, very little or no-psi use, but pretty much fine as it is too

PEs - Should be ; able to take a fair bit more damage than a spy, deal a fair bit less damage than a spy, heal and buff themselves a bit, in a way that should separate themselves from the spy/apu/tank, making them a bit more self-sufficient as the jack of all trades, and does not hack to OP standards (unless gimp)

another idea that could make them a niche asset in the OP fights, and correlates with the re-integration of turrets, is possibly have PE's as the only class that can set turrets? ideas are just falling out of my brain here so just bare with me.

as long as every class has their merit in an OP fight in some way i guess

having PE's and APUs viable again is one the main things i'd like to see on a personal level, and I'm sure most people agree too, so thought I'd pipe up now. Anyway, think I'm now delirious with fatigue. hopefully this is of some help in terms of possible ideas, if not, hopefully the flames to come from my peers will steer us in the right path on this topic.

(PE jet packs ftw :lol:)

MayhemMichael
18-04-14, 04:16
I like where you're going but for PE's to be useful again they lower level ppu spells need to be reworked, at their current state they are useless for both spy and pe

Kame
18-04-14, 05:02
Thanks for that post Bragi.



I also agree with where you want to take things. You seem to want to want to put a focus on the pvp aspect and I like this.



However I still recommend you look at the weapons characteristic before you adjust their damages. This is mostly to help get a clear picture of the weapons situation. This is because the weapons characteristic per type of weapons do not make sense right now.

Let me give an example :

All plasma cannons but CS have a 32 shots clip. CS has 40. Im guessing its a remant from old NC1 where not only rare had damage bonus but gameplay bonus like more shots in the clip.

Clip size really is something you should address first before you consider tieing DPM to TL. Else it will simply not be constant.

Now the TL/DPM curve will of course be linear untill you reach CS, because of course reload time impacts on DPM value. So your linear curve will suddently jump at the CS lv because the bigger clips favors more DPS.

It also affects gameplay in such a critical way, having 8 or 10 shots in a clip is major factor in PVP viability. (I have a /52 HC tank on which I pvp. it uses TPC, which has a 32 shots clip. it makes me much less viable than a tank using CS because as I reload he has 2 more shots on me, and more damage).









For some reason I like to think about the idea that "weapon burst" should be "baselined" as well (I used the word streamlined before, poor choice but english isnt my primary language so bear with me plz ?).

Here is a suggestion, but it could very well be organised by weapon type as before (plasma, laser, pulselaser, etc) or by any other classification method. But having a clear pattern here is preferable in my opinion.

Pistol 2 shots burst

Rifle 3 shots burst

Cannon 4 shots burst

Kame
18-04-14, 05:30
Because of clip or burst size, as in TPC (32clip size) vs CS (40 clip size) or Tangent Pulselaser (3 shots burst) vs Disruptor (4 shots burst), the PVP viability is greatly affected until you reach rare weapons capabilities.

Add the damage bonus onto that and this is why low lv PVP is shit.

Then try to appy to right-below rare-lvl-TL weapons, essentially PE gear, adn you have the reason why playing a PE is shit right now.

Having a 32 shot clip on a HC PE and facing a HC tank with more damage and 2 more shots in the clip is way out of balance.

Having a 3shots burst rifle PE using tangent pulselaser vs rifle spy using 4shots burst is as unbalanced.

Not having access to certain weapons because you havnt be grinding enough is no fun at all for a new player. WOC status should be merely cosmetic period, not pvp defining.

Doc Holliday
18-04-14, 06:26
After wading through 6-8 pages of serious essay writing i have to add just one small thing which kame mentioned above.


Clip size. It needs to be standardized across the board relevant to what amount of ammo the item consumes per burst. If its a wyatt earp put 20 shots in the clip (FOR EXAMPLE) where as a weapon that shoots 2 shots in one (lasers for example) should have 40 in them. This equals a maximum of 20 shots before a full reload for both weapons.

This would go a long way to establishing a base line IMO. Naturally you can drop the clip size down from 20 to 15 or even 10 and adjust others accordingly but this to me seems to be uniform across all weapons and would help to establish each weapons base damage level which can then be adjusted up/down.

Ps why are people shooting cyclopses. I thought it was pvp testing that was supposed to be done.

Torg
18-04-14, 07:11
kame and doc: since were not looking at damage per shot, but damage over time, it doesnt matter what clip and burst size, single shot damage or reload time any weapon has in the end. because it all adds up. so i think standardizing burst or clip size is unneccessary. what we want is a disruptor thats just slightly stronger than the next lesser gun, but has enough advantage over it to make you think about specializing your toon into max DPM while sacrificing other abilities. and we want MC5 chips or WOC items that are worth acquiring, but are not as indispensable as they are today.

Teal`c
18-04-14, 11:35
APU

in general better defensives and some variation for the spells. They feel pretty much the same. Right now its more like "shotgun-gameplay", hit & run. Theyre forced to hide behind edges after each shot. For a more aggressive gameplay the apu needs some high frequency spell/s. Combine it with the new changes if you like
-high TL : hard hitting spells - short range
-low TL :high frequency - better defensives

Difficult to balance is that the apu dont need a line of sight to do damage. So you cant set the damage/defensives equal to other classes and especially range cant be raised. Good players will abuse it if no changes are made to the line of sight detection.

Dropout
18-04-14, 11:55
& they all have the same opinion. & they have always used the "OP weapon" everytime they've played the game it seems. (Kame, divide, tino, & Strife are all clanmates)

Viable and OP weapons is not completely the same..
That only a very few weapons have been viable ever since 2.2, is not really something us PvP'ers have been able to do anything about, yet.

William Antrim
18-04-14, 11:57
Reading the last page or so I can see more questions flying out with a degree of excitement involved from all. I just want to say please understand it is only section one of bragi's plan they are at now. Best to get this part fixed before we dive into some of the specifics that you guys are bringing up. Got to walk before you can run essentially.

Sevendust
18-04-14, 12:16
No I just think that your idea is flawed tino and i am giving reasons why behind it.

Kame as for your suggestion.....


#brains indeed. If you remove one shot from the burst then all you need to do is make the others do an equal amount of damage that the previous burst did.

If a weapon has 4 shots and you remove one but it used to do 100 damage then you can make it do the same damage over 3 shots (ok to make it divisible by 3 we would make it do 99 damage....). Problem fixed.

Simple maths.

Making all weapons hit all the time with a closed reticle IS the biggest issue I think you guys are trying to get at underneath all of the arguing. If thats the case then yes I agree completely. It doesnt retract from the fact you need a template though.

I think you will find you cannot argue with that logic.

The point of shortening the dissy to a 3 shot burst isnt to simply change the number of shots...it's to bring the damage a single burst does down.

Dasore
18-04-14, 12:57
best post since weeks @bragi

so what exatly do you guys need now?

Kame
18-04-14, 13:19
As far as clip size vs DPM goes, clipsize will only be a changing factor if the DPM/TL is adjusted via algorithm, which is what I assumed was the case.

Only if weapon DPM is set manually will the clipsize not be a a changing factor.

However if weapon damage is set independently of DPM, obviously there will be a lot of trial and error ?


Can you clarify how is the damage set on weapons ?

Bragi
18-04-14, 14:36
The Proportional DPM takes into account clip size and frequency, as well as reloading time.

Each weapon has it's own unique modifier, which we set individually (in fact there's almost no interlinking between weapons, there's over 60 variables for each weapon governing everything from TL, damage, light effects and where on the player model it sits). In the past this was done manually, one at a time, which took a long time to do (especially APU, *twitches*). We've since updated our tools to do it auto-magically, so we can generate a curve much quicker.

Regarding the bugged weapons, we are well aware of it. It's not my department though, since it's a coding problem.

Also, while the stages I mentioned hopefully means we can get a much more solid foundation to the balance effort, it will take a while to get to the parts that many of you are desperate to have fixed, PPUs in particular.
We have been coming up with some changes that we can implement quickly (though probably not in the next patch) as a temporary 'fix' until we come to look at them directly later on for a more refined solution.

MayhemMichael
18-04-14, 15:00
Thanks for the update bargi. I'll be on testing this weekend

Tino
18-04-14, 16:20
The real question is timeline...i think most neocron players are slowly giving up and losing faith in the game...its sad

Dasore
18-04-14, 16:44
its done when its done :)

Bragi
18-04-14, 16:48
its done when its done :)

Which we accept is unacceptable for many people; hence my mention of getting 'something' in place soon to make PvP a bit more enjoyable in a team environment.

Kame
18-04-14, 18:48
I recommend fixing ammo clip size and burst size to give PVP in general a temp fix.

William Antrim
18-04-14, 18:57
I recommend fixing ammo clip size and burst size to give PVP in general a temp fix.


Honestly I would rather just Op fight on the test server than waste time on temporary fixes that slow down the work on balancing the game.

hudsonbeck
18-04-14, 22:16
Is there any useful testing I can do if there is no one on when I'm on? I'm usually on late night early morn EST which is worst time pop wise. I'd like to contribute.
Can I collect numbers from any NPC or what might be useful.

Thanks.

Drachenpaladin
18-04-14, 22:56
Is there any useful testing I can do if there is no one on when I'm on? I'm usually on late night early morn EST which is worst time pop wise. I'd like to contribute.
Can I collect numbers from any NPC or what might be useful.

Thanks.

I guess thats why people also gave results they gathered with Launcher Cyclopse and such... tho you might also try dual logged testing, firing on your own toon.

hudsonbeck
19-04-14, 00:11
I guess thats why people also gave results they gathered with Launcher Cyclopse and such... tho you might also try dual logged testing, firing on your own toon.

Great idea. Not sure why i didn't think of that... I use multiple accts all the time on retail.

Ascension
19-04-14, 00:15
I've been watching from the shadows, and yet to understand how this will affect of apus? Stacking was removed the the class a long time ago, as were a lot of things. Making the class futile.

Divide
19-04-14, 04:19
I've been watching from the shadows, and yet to understand how this will affect of apus? Stacking was removed the the class a long time ago, as were a lot of things. Making the class futile.

Don't think that is in scope of the patch, but it is definitely something a large number of players would like to see. The return of a class that used to be fun.

William Antrim
19-04-14, 10:45
It will help them the same as everyone else. It puts everyone on a level playing field.

Ascension
19-04-14, 10:59
Don't think that is in scope of the patch, but it is definitely something a large number of players would like to see. The return of a class that used to be fun.

Indeed. It's the only class I've really played. Would be nice to see it return to its former glory, on a level playing field.

ZoomTHX
19-04-14, 16:12
Hello i think everything has been told about what i'm about to say but i just wanna show my feelings about this "patch"
most people will insult / hate me after that but i'm rly anger atm
jump from 1meter instant kill you / 1 dot from ANY fire mobs instant kill you (even full rare pad buff / full fire armor resist / full force/piercing resist) / 30 to 50% dmg nerf on most weapon that make the farm pretty IMPOSSIBLE for most classes because you need 2x more time to kill and any shot from fire mobs kills you.
i know there is people that will say " i farm easy you noob " but i tried with capped tank / spy with ppu and same resuslts ..
what's the point ? nerf dmg in pvp to balance weapons ok but how we farm mobs we used to do now ? if they instant kill us and with the tl 90 dmg of the tl 115 rare weapons ..... imagine how you can lvling with tl 50 weapon with the same nerf ???????
just impossible the rav/cs/creed dmg is just a shame and i don't talk about the healing light dmg.... less than the tl 75 TT epic WITH 60/ freq REALLY ???? if this patch is applied on titan i'll stop the game i'm so sad...
now you can spam insult reply as you like

aKe`cj
19-04-14, 16:32
[snip]

Relax.

Even though this is a Vedeena Patch and those patches used to be "staging" tests for Titan, this time, the balancing changes are not intended to be ported to retail. It confuses me as well, but I am sure there is a reason why this singular aspect of balancing is being tested on Vedeena and not on Sparta and I hope prior to any retail patch a proper staging test will be conducted.

Trivaldi
19-04-14, 16:56
I am sure there is a reason why this singular aspect of balancing is being tested on Vedeena and not on Sparta
For clarity on this, these changes are being tested on Vedeena due to changes to the underlying code.

I'll explain this quite broadly as I'm sure a few more people are also wondering!

Sparta always runs at the same patch level as Titan, it has the same underlying logic as Titan. Differences only come about 'in the numbers' used for weapons and other aspects of balance, we can tweak those values server side on Sparta and need not patch your clients. Basically we can tweak stuff with quick server reboots for a much more agile approach.

Keeping the code the same on Titan and Sparta, means there can be no other reason for changes in weapon/item behavior or performance. We believe that is very important when it comes to getting balance right.

Vedeena is used when we actually patch the game. Changes exist in the underlying code and therefore things can be different for a number of reasons. We needed code changes this time around as the ability to switch off frequency's dependence on player skills (http://forum.neocron-game.com/showthread.php?155324-R-186-T-186-Patch-Notes) needed to be added under the hood.

Therefore we now implemented a new option which enables us to turn off this dependency, which we have done.
Plus of course, there's a lot of stuff which isn't balance related in this patch.

Assuming everything else works fine (turrets and what have you), we can apply the code changes to Titan with frequency dependence left on (as it's now an option, not a code change). Then we can separate the changes which produce the new proportial-DPM curve to Sparta only, where we'd have that dependance turned off. Titan gets the fixes, Sparta gets those and the balance changes.

I hope that makes sense and shines a bit of light on why we have two public test environments.

Kame
19-04-14, 17:11
First how about re-instating weapon caps ??

Have you considered it ?


Secondly, if you really think about it, it is a weird concept to have 200% damage on a weapon...

Dasore
19-04-14, 19:53
this threat is getting better every day... more details are a nice thing to know for the com

Bragi
20-04-14, 01:10
First how about re-instating weapon caps ??

Have you considered it ?


Secondly, if you really think about it, it is a weird concept to have 200% damage on a weapon...

We would prefer that performance remains open-ended. I am quite aware of the various arguments against it (especially regarding specilisation) but it's felt that 'excess' skilling should be rewarded - we just have to make sure that it's balanced by other factors/choices.

As for 200%, it's just a number. We can always reduce that value yet keep the actual damage the same.

Drake6k
20-04-14, 01:16
As for 200%, it's just a number. We can always reduce that value yet keep the actual damage the same.
Having percents cap at 100% would make a lot more sense. 250% aiming? 120% artifact weapon stats? Wasn't the old freq cap like, 378%?

jj dynomite
20-04-14, 02:19
Having percents cap at 100% would make a lot more sense. 250% aiming? 120% artifact weapon stats? Wasn't the old freq cap like, 378%?

Agreed!

If the scaling can be the same but the end number be 100% on stats it would give a MUCH clearer view of an end goal for runners. Have the highest attainable natural skill could be 100%. Imps and armour could assist in gaining the 100%, but nothing could go past that.

This would be so good for the game, and yet so simple.

Kame
20-04-14, 04:14
To the DEV team I will say : I think it's obvious that a lot of people would rather have a weapon stat (aiming, damage, shot/min and range) cap re-instated, as well as the same gun clip-size as NC1 and early NC2. It's also easier for new players to deal with stats caps and standard ammo clip-size and burst-size.

Also wouldnt weapon stats cap help A LOT when it comes to scaling DPM/TL ???

100% stats cap for weapon also means there is a cap, and it feels good to have reference points like a cap when building character setups. This is a feature that was removed from the game by 2.2 and no one ever asked for such a change from what I can remember. People were simply asking to balance the PSI class, APU and PPU.


One suggestion is that only rare/epic weapon reward and such should have over 100% stats, and this should be the ONLY bonus rare weapons have. Clip size and burst size whould be standardised for balance's sake. And NOT in stage 5 of the balancing. As soon as you look at weapons those topics should be on the table. Please ask us what WE think should happen with weapon before you do major changes.



If you ask me I dont think that excess skilling should be rewarded, unless were talking about tradeskill. I think you should actually ASK US what we think about excess skilling and weapons stats cap.

Sevendust
20-04-14, 05:56
what you're testing with this patch right now; is that the numbers we put in on our end match what come out on yours. That the foundation and corrections to our tools/Neocron's code work as expected and intended. We need to make sure issues in the under lying systems have been fixed (which is where the time has gone) and that issues in our assumptions from the first balance test (what we launched on Sparta) are corrected.


Do you know if they noticed the problem with the high dmg of the speedgat pistols & the pulselaser rifles from my tests I posted?

The only 2 guns (out of pistols & rifles) that didn't match the curve (HIGH dpm) on my tests was the speed gat Pistols & the pulselaser rifles. While I personally believe a rapid fire weapon should have a higher DPM since it requires ALOT more shots to land, it was a bit excessive...& then there's the disruptor/pulselaser rifles, that need another nerf cuz they're still too strong. I believe not ONLY does the disruptor need to be reduced to a 3 shot burst to bring the dmg down into line, but also all pulselaser rifles need a slight dmg nerf. (slightly lower the dmg of the ammo to fix this maybe?)

#1 Example of pulselaser rifles: TL 81 stabber pulselaser rifle, hits 5 shots less/min than the healing yet, a TL 110 wep, yet it hits for 5 dmg more per burst.

#2 Example of disruptor: Plasma rifles have the higher DPM slightly, because they're faster firing weapons. But, at the TL 80 range, the TL 81 pulselaser had a DPM of 4,350 & the TL 82 plasma rifle at 5,044 = Correct curve. Then, at the TL 115 point, TL 115 dissy had a DPM of 7,400 & the TL 114 First Love at 6,669, almost 1,000 less DPM = Incorrect curve.

FURTHERMORE, one main thing we're trying to get away from is having a weapon that hits for a large amount from just 1 click (makes the weapon much easier to use for the amount of damage you get; ie: Becomes the weapon everyone wants a Spy using = Spy class weapon choice still imbalanced) THAT BEING SAID, even if we change the dissy to a 3 shot to lower the DPM into range, let's look at the numbers it should then do. the previous gap between the pulselaser & plasma rifle was about 700 dpm, with the plasma rifle being higher. With the dissy being 1TL higher this time instead of lower, we'll say it'll only be 500 dpm lower than the First Love. FL's DPM was 6,669, so to get 6,169 at 24.75 shots/min, the dissy would then need to be doing 249, instead of 299. Now, the Healing Light did 169 (80 dmg less) & fires at only 5 shots more/min (0.08 secs faster than the dissy). Practically the same fire rate in real-time.

So, from this point of view, even after the dissy burst change, it still either needs a re-work (change in fire rate id suggest. No more easy-mode weapons), or a considerable dmg nerf.

Torg
20-04-14, 09:53
We would prefer that performance remains open-ended. I am quite aware of the various arguments against it (especially regarding specilisation) but it's felt that 'excess' skilling should be rewarded - we just have to make sure that it's balanced by other factors/choices.

As for 200%, it's just a number. We can always reduce that value yet keep the actual damage the same.
Thats a delicate part of the balancing. Yes, in some cases extreme skillpoint specializing should be rewarded, to create a wider variety of sub-classes/professions and playstyles. Which means more fun. While in other cases, especially in low and midrange gamplay (noncapped chars) specializing must not get in the way of secondary skills/professions (like driving, recycling etc), which would reduce playing fun. I believe balancing around this will be difficult, but quite neccessary to keep the game entertaining to its full extent.

Stats and numbers: Sure, when i started playing NC i was also confused by those seemingly chaotic stats values, but later in the game i enjoyed this rather complicated system as a part of the lore and atmosphere. So i strongly oppose simplifying the stats and other values, as it would make the game more dull and less interesting. At the end of the day its the killcount, not the numbers behind it.

Sevendust
20-04-14, 14:21
We would prefer that performance remains open-ended. I am quite aware of the various arguments against it (especially regarding specilisation) but it's felt that 'excess' skilling should be rewarded - we just have to make sure that it's balanced by other factors/choices.

As for 200%, it's just a number. We can always reduce that value yet keep the actual damage the same.

If I hadn't tested the reality of this recently, & the Kami chips were put back into the game, Id accept this. But after I did a test with a cursed soul & did a whopping 14 more dmg in a burst from having 31 more HC (283 total), it's not really even rewarding, for the cursed soul at least. Ive yet to test this with other weapons.

(Testing was done on Titan)

Bragi
21-04-14, 11:46
Well the next stage is looking at the sub-skill to performance relationship. Also, 14 extra damage on top of what total? (Could you also check the change between ~150 HC and ~175 HC?)

P.S. I'm currently going through the damage values on the ammo. I've found numerous problems that have cropped up since I last did them. Going to fix the ones you mentioned while I'm at it.

William Antrim
21-04-14, 12:56
Having percents cap at 100% would make a lot more sense. 250% aiming? 120% artifact weapon stats? Wasn't the old freq cap like, 378%?

damage cap used to be 176% (or 178% i forgot which), aiming was like 250 or 200%. frequency I honestly cannot remember but I know that firing a cs with capped freq was like a fully automatic weapon. They were the days.


I would rather see skill caps tbh on damage to give people variation in 2ndary skills (driving for example - vehicular combat would be great for ganking).

Sevendust
21-04-14, 23:22
Well the next stage is looking at the sub-skill to performance relationship. Also, 14 extra damage on top of what total? (Could you also check the change between ~150 HC and ~175 HC?)

P.S. I'm currently going through the damage values on the ammo. I've found numerous problems that have cropped up since I last did them. Going to fix the ones you mentioned while I'm at it.

Im not sure on the exact numbers, but I believe it was around 140 (245 h-c) to 157 (283 h-c). & that 157 dmg might have been a headshot instead of chest shot to see the max increase. Might have only been about 7. >_<

Why test at 150-170 HC?...I'm starting to feel like we kinda need to know what's in the plans to be done about the weapons so we know what/where/why to test. (If it's to make certain main weapon stats require less to cap the rare weapons, I agree with HC. It takes about 245ish to cap the aiming on a Cursed Soul.

Bragi
22-04-14, 00:28
Im not sure on the exact numbers, but I believe it was around 140 (245 h-c) to 157 (283 h-c). & that 157 dmg might have been a headshot instead of chest shot to see the max increase. Might have only been about 7. >_<
OK, so we are talking roughly about a 12% increase. If you could list the damage values on the weapon's info screen at both sub-skill levels, that would be good.


Why test at 150-170 HC?...I'm starting to feel like we kinda need to know what's in the plans to be done about the weapons so we know what/where/why to test. (If it's to make certain main weapon stats require less to cap the rare weapons, I agree with HC. It takes about 245ish to cap the aiming on a Cursed Soul.
I need to look at base values as well as item-buffed ones. 283 HC is a lot and may be where the dmg/sub-skill effects are much lower than at smaller values.
Also remember that since sub-skills don't affect frequency, the dmg change with sub-skill change will be lower than previous and we will probably have to change it.

As for aiming, that's a separate equation from damage, we can always alter it so that lower sub-skill setups don't loose out on aiming performance.

walkman
22-04-14, 15:28
My 2 cents.

This patch will be not a panacea of all problems. Instead it will brings disbalance. A simple example that will brings first problem is Ionic Pistol. The pistol has only 2 shells (1 shot) and currently reload time about 5 (five) seconds. Compared to its "brothers" riffle and cannon with 16 shells (8 shots) and reload time about 3 seconds. The first question is, what is damage it will produce acceptable for this TL/DPM? 2 thousands per shot? May be 3 thousands of pure pierce damage? Or even else with mods, 1k pierce + 1k xray, huh? If so then Kame will load his own PE/Spy and will use such easy (how he said) weapons. One shot, one death. And there are no problems with clip size :)

If you still does not beleave that it will cause such problems then think about who told you that you need only one ionic pistol in your belt? Take 2-3 ionic pistols. They gives you double or triple damage. You are require to be fast enough (before auto-reload) to switch for another pistol. So, 2-3 such pistols will be deals around 4-8k dmg (at least for new DPM/TL curve). So, nobody can stay alive and no one will survive. 3 shots equals 100% death of any char, with any armor, any!

But I am sure that balance team will decrease power of such ultimate weapon. Because looks like they are hate pistols! On Veedena my char have only TT epic pistol and perfect uranium Wyatt Earp. Everybody knows that currently TT pistol has much greater DPS/DPM than Earp. Even with new system was nothing changed! NOTHING. TT epic pistol (TL 75) deals around 350-360 dmg. And Earp deals maximum 250-260. And balance team knows where is problem, but did not fixed it. And problem is simple. Most mobs have a lot of pierce resistance. Most classes have a lot of pierce resistance. And I dont know why Earp even on Veedena deals MUCH LESS damage, even having +13 TL points. Who can explain me such injustice?

Again. Especially for PE those two pistols are common. There I will continue Kame's story about "easy to use". Such pistols like Earp, BHG and so on have great recoil. This means that after shoot you need to aim again (not like as in first time, but you need to do this). While TT epic and even Liberator does not have such problem. You may shoot with Liberator non-stop and aim will be same all the time! I am not sure but I suppose that EoF, dissy and any machine gun type weapons does not have such problem either. And again I ask, why Earp deals much less damage? Its not easy to use. Its not deals desireable damage. It was useless and stay useless. Sadly but true. The conclusion: remove Wyatt Earp entirely from the game. Then L-parts will produces much more usefull things like cpu chips :)

Continue describing pistol's problems. At this time about PvE part. What did balance team? There are 3 types of Mini Rocket Launcher (TL 65 is max) and it has 30/min shot frequency. Why? Why not 45/min? Or 60/min? On Titan my PE have 90/min and its really too fast, even causing sometimes graphical issues. A few days ago I got first WoC with my pistol/PE. And this gun helps a lot. Why am I so angry? Well, I will explain everything. All pistols for PE: TL 65 MRL (rocket launcher), TL 75 TT epic pistol, Wyatt Earp (TL 88), TL 91 Liberator, TL 95 Ionic Pistol, TL 100 Judge, TL 103 Slasher, TL 105 Beam of Hell. Every pistol which have TL over 96-97 is useless unless you will bought TOP level mc5 chips: DIP, CCP and RD. Any other class does not have such problem. Any other class does not need to get WoC for common TL 96 Backup Gun (also seems to be useless). No one needs use drugs for leveling (except may be droners). And now who told me how to get WoC on Vedeena with brand new TL 65 MRL and TT epic pistol? The answer is easy, you got WoC within few weeks, well, now you will got it within few months. Or just be a droner! Great, thank you very much. Good that I tested this behavior and got WoC fast enough, until new balance patch.

Why I told you this? Because shot frequency heavily changing PvE part. And nobody says about that in this thread. I have friend, riffle spy, he got WoC (and soon will got second) with TCSR and then SH. And I dont know how such classes (without AoE, in case of PE limited AoE) will getting WoC later. I think everybody will start as rigger. Because as I see you dont touch them... Even APUs will start as riggers. And may be tanks will do same either. Who knows? :)

Think about this too, dear balance team.

Thank you for attention.

---

Sorry for my english if you see mistakes. It is not native language.

I hope that world where lives only tanks and ppus will be ended. And guys like Kame stop talking about mythical clip size problem. I want to play with my pistol/PE and I dont want listen talks about useless PE/APU anymore.

Kame
23-04-14, 16:31
Off topic :

No matter how much other forum users will tell me to shut up, I will not stop posting my opinions and views. So you guys can stop right away.


On topic.

Also the clip-size inequality over a weapon's range is a problem of first instance.

You DEVs need to realise that trying to balance DPM/TL when Cursed Soul and the rest of the plasma cannon range have ammo clips inconsistencies. Especially at the gameplay level, it renders every weapons with the smaller clip useless for PVP.


This type of adjustment falls into the scope of weapons and should be addressed.

Alduin
24-04-14, 15:54
T#189 has been released!

Please head over to the Patch Notes thread (http://forum.neocron-game.com/showthread.php?155324-R-186-T-186-T-189-Patch-Notes) to see what has been updated in detail.

To summarise: all weapons doing damage over time should now be in line with the others and weapons have been boosted depending on their weapon category. This weapon category dependent boost has been put in place to see how it affects PvP between different classes, like e.g. tank vs spy.

Please focus your testing on the following:

Using the new frequencies (which include reloading times) from the weapon info window: is the dpm vs tl curve now correct?
Do 1vs1 fights amongst the same class feel balanced?
Do 1vs1 fights amongst different classes feel balanced?
Is the APU of any use on Vedeena?


When giving feedback/posting test results please categorise your feedback according to the focus categories mentioned above. This will allow us to more easily identify if what we've put in, is really what comes out at your end. Please try to fill us in with as many details as possible (skill setups, weapons used, mods used, ...).

Thank you all for your help!

Alduin
24-04-14, 18:19
Dumb me forgot to add the needed definitions for players to be able to get to the shooting range. They have been added by now via a small patch.

brand
25-04-14, 00:53
hmm have fought with a rifle spy against a hc tank. devo stack seems to be op. got hit one time and almost died because of the poison stack. i m waering a regant pa and have some posion resists. dmg generally too high. the only weapon which seemed to do normal dmg was the first love butmaybe i just haven t hit good with it. tanks are getting eaten in seconds by the dmg atm. i m just imagining a tank running around in the wasteland then a spy comes out of his stealth and is killing him in seconds before he can even react. why try to make a spy as strong as a tank in duels? isn t the spy more like an assasine which takes his advantage out of his stealth and his speed and with rifles with his sniping skills? i think it s rly important to make the runningspeed right. and i personally think that pistols melees rifles should not do more dmg than hc it just should be more balanced in runspeed.
atm fighting a tank on the testserver feels like shooting a spy and getting shot by a tank on spy feels like you have 5 con.
don t know if the neofrag is just bugged and the resist don t coun t there or something.

Drachenpaladin
25-04-14, 03:09
Well, in case of doubt... just test it in the wastes... after all thats what the test server is set up for so nicely with vendors and stuff...

Dropout
25-04-14, 08:59
don t know if the neofrag is just bugged and the resist don t coun t there or something.
Dont ever trust NF, mate.
That place is buggy as shit, sadly.

Tankjr
25-04-14, 12:39
Hi Peepz,

Very interesting to read this, but 'how' can new People which started to play this Game espeically to get as fast as possible into this PVP Madness ...which maybe only get in use of nskl, fuckin loom pills, various damage testings - 1v1 where the see how Things change or take effect ...get more involved into better or more spezific 'realistic' Testings to make their own Setups as best effective as they can ?? I guess the most Noobs doesnt understand the half of what u guys speak... numbers, prozent of this and that. TL ...tbh !

Any turoials, stats or examples, calculates to get into this ????

Can u may tell or give help for those people ? As more are getting involved.
I know at least 2 handfull of new Runners which are getting started to get as fast as possible into this PVP Madness ...they need a bit of help.

Thank you Guys!

Dasore
25-04-14, 14:26
Tankjr in your opinion it may sound stupid but i think there is no real use if new players take place in these tests. For sure they can join the testserver and shoot each other and write in forum what they think, but what they ll experience ll not be what the real old players ll try and figuere out. i think you ll have to be a bit more into nc than a usual half a year playing guy can get, same with some of the tradeskillers here that talk bout pvp.

Testing new setups is a bit difficult at the moment cause ppu-spells dont work correct, weapons do too much damage cause of the wrong frequ. Probably will get better after 1 or 2 more patches and then you can think about trying new setups.

What the tested atm is if the damage of the weapons is right compared to their techlevel, kind of weapon and if pvp is a bit more balanced than it is now (on retail its okay between the classes, just apu is shit, some weapons do too much dmg and some dont do any)

Tankjr
25-04-14, 14:52
Hi mate,

Okay - as i see now, it depends on howi tried to explain my Questions, sorry for my english.

I didnt meant and it definetly right and logical that a noob cant help you with some Kind of Testings.

Look back - you just started for a few months. Your chars are or getting capped. You want to start play PVP. As u know, read, hear or actually see from actual Fights ..u got Experuence. U know which Weapons effects and which not. But and now thats the Point Mate...

How to become a better Point of View for your Setup ?

People for example only know nskill, working on it. Try to get the best mix out of armor, implants.. increasing points on there mainskill for dmg out, freq, balance, etc. So far, so good.

Who can tell those how to calculate exactly or from the basics up forwards on which points focus must be set ?
When does atl, agy been reached on points or ressists that this is not too much and doesnt be not counted if u set the value (runspeed) to high ??
Same with spending points over con (armor not included) ? Some people speak about ressist overcapp with false or returns in more dmg which u want recieve ? Can u understand what i want to tell you ?

They doesnt know any basics how to start to get there setup on a great way that it effects at the end. They must of them join neofrag with a package of looms, shoot each other under various conditions and only can learn of the result which take effect - thats it.

Or other people say - when u set points on ressists it must be set to an ending with 1, 3 or 9 for eample, otherwise the calculation doesnt take the full effect ??

As u see... for new runners which try to get an solide or stable setup, they need more facts on basics, ressist, damage calculations as u experienced players know. If they see 65% energy ressists on a nskill picture they doesnt know if its enough or maybe 80% will be counted as more effective and so on.

I hope u understand me better now...
Its just about a few rulez, or basics each new runner which wants to start to get deeper and more efficient in pvp should have to recognize or know.

Otherwise its more a waste of time when u dunno have a order how things should basicly be set or done.

Dasore
25-04-14, 15:15
funny, two germans talking english ;)

1st: use the nskill to get a basic setup
2nd: get in neofrag and test vs all used pvp weapons
3rd: if its okay figure out how to get 1 or 2 points more in the skills by switching armor/imps. If its shit start from the beginning.

i mean there is no real op setup, you just have to find your setup

NSkill is a bit bugged, so i wouldnt give too much about it. there are a few wrong stats on implants/armor, runspeed isnt right and i never tested the damge % on weapons.

At the moment the best thing you can do on retail for new players is leveling, learn to aim and get used to their weapons. think setups will be made after the patch anyway when everything is set and everyone gets used to the changes

Tankjr
25-04-14, 15:28
Dasore, all those Things are fine and maybe a good Solution. And yes, thats we they do. But i asked for more detailed Things like Basics. Didn't you read the example or ressist or runspeed capps which i asked for ? Especially Runspeed ... since the last Patch ...there must be a fuckin point at which Spending more Points on that must result in Useless ... where to find infos about. Who is approving me that spending 145 in agy isnt effecting now then it was on one of those last patches. Thats one of the points what i call' basics' and no neofrag in this world can show me an answer. '' they dont know it...

Dasore
25-04-14, 15:45
There are no free available details bout runspeed/dmg/resists etc. Everyone has to test it by his own or you know someone who knows it ;) thats what nc is all about.
I know guys getting bans so gms could check if they cheat cause they did too much damage, that are setups made at the limit of the possibilities of neocron. None ll tell ya their secrets, that are hours of testing most of those guys spent.

Tankjr
25-04-14, 15:59
Sure, and thats one of the great Things why we play this Game. I know that Dasore. And you want to tell me that we dont have no Orientation for a runspeed capp on atl and agy ?? Means, no one can exactls tell me from which point up i shouldnt spend more points on named skills ? So how can this becalculated then when they patched or fuxed it ?? I dont believe, that there is no answer or my english is too bad or maybe u dont know it for yourself and follow options which other runners use.

I didnt want to know how a setup should b, just a kind of save and stocked info which is definetly known and approved from the dev site and experienced players know this. Simple basics for a new player ... i give up now.

Thanks anyways.

Dasore
25-04-14, 16:14
nothing approved from the dev site, then more you skill then faster you are. there is no capp at the moment for anything except freq and aimspeed

Tankjr
25-04-14, 16:37
Okay. I hope thats true.

One runner told me those days -i have for example 80% on ener ressi on spy.
Where is the limit ? How can i canculate or find out that its to high and doesnt be good enough ? He heared people saying ' if you set a value' too high, u will earn more damage, something like overcapped or damage overcapp ?! I couldnt explain him what this meant to be. I am just asking how people can speak something when its definetly not announced that we have no basic calculations on anything.... i feel like a bit fucked....somethibgs wrong.

Sorry, if u know what i mean..

Dasore
25-04-14, 16:40
yeah it seems like when you got too high resists you start getting more dmg again. never heard anything of the devs bout that, but many people say that.

80% on a spy? ur doing something wrong anyway ;)

Tankjr
25-04-14, 16:56
Dasore... i dont speak about me, my setups or questions about how to set something.
So as u said there must be a rule for setting those points. And why does no one tell us if this is wrong or right, or not approved or something like that ? Why ? Why should i waste time to get touched with wrong information and this and that. So i return to topic and the beginning of what i only wanted to know - if we have announced basics in any kind of direction***which helps out, i search for it.

As no one can answer me i will inform those mates in that point u worte down here, means :nskill, bugged neofrag, tonns of loompills ...testings and things what people say about overcapps tbc are not approved and the devs didnt announced it ...so dont care what everybody says ..... very helpful ;-)

I am out. Have nice weekend guys

Drachenpaladin
25-04-14, 17:02
I think the Devs really could give us some insight into certain things like how skills work etc. Its really a pain having to reverse half the games mechanics b trial and error to find out which skills are just requirement and which have an effect on this or that.

It doesn't help that all the help texts and stuff is outdated since all that stuff got changed over and over again.

Tankjr
25-04-14, 17:22
Just sorry... a new runner comes here. That he choosed nc and no other in time game - respekt! He gots fast involved in whats going on, he is capped. But ....... no further info on how this and that works. How to calculate ??? I got armor, various weapons on different TL' freq, bal, implants... tbc.
Nobody can give u an answer how to get in this. And to ask people to copy a bit edited setups of someone ...naaah.

Everything looks like kind od secret or not approved or what the hell ... why ?
People need at least a few fuckin basics on how this things got count, react or beeing calculated. Noob is reading this discusso here, tries to understand what kind of numbers, prozential tl bla bla statistics going on.
Just to get those people a bit more informed ....if i would ask how many people exactly can analyse there damage logs, how many of you would be fair and say,... in each point- i can ?! Nice, i see numbers ..but where the hell is a formula to get into this ???

Kame
25-04-14, 17:56
Honestly, things like formulas for skill and tutorials for noobs have nothing to do with balancing PVP.

Tankjr
25-04-14, 17:59
You' re right. Ignore it and me. I dont care.

BlueRobot
25-04-14, 18:09
Dasore, all those Things are fine and maybe a good Solution. And yes, thats we they do. But i asked for more detailed Things like Basics. Didn't you read the example or ressist or runspeed capps which i asked for ? Especially Runspeed ... since the last Patch ...there must be a fuckin point at which Spending more Points on that must result in Useless ... where to find infos about. Who is approving me that spending 145 in agy isnt effecting now then it was on one of those last patches. Thats one of the points what i call' basics' and no neofrag in this world can show me an answer. '' they dont know it...

Experience/testing/asking experienced players.

There is no point in asking for the best value in a single stat. It has to fit your setup. If you dont want to spend that much time, ask someone for a complete setup.

In our clan, we have a few setups for new guys to look at or use. As soon as they get better, they make their own by testing(fighting)/asking

Drachenpaladin
25-04-14, 18:42
Experience/testing/asking experienced players.

Ask ten of those and you will get five different answers on what skill has what effect and how it works. Only word from Devs is the real deal.

BlueRobot
25-04-14, 18:48
Removed! - Lets keep things on topic shall we?

Drachenpaladin
25-04-14, 18:59
Removed! - Lets keep things on topic shall we?

Alduin
25-04-14, 19:05
Get back to topic: testing the current changes on Vedeena! Work your personal differences out by doing some 1vs1 PvP testing on Vedeena.

BlueRobot
25-04-14, 19:07
Removed! - Lets keep things on topic shall we?

Kame
25-04-14, 19:10
[Edited - Let's stick to the topic]

William Antrim
25-04-14, 21:25
TankJr

I have just read through the last few posts of yours and I think what you are asking for is a set of milestones that you can give advice to new players on for overall guidance in their setups rather than actual precise values like 10 points here and 5 points there etc.

The problem is that I think what you are asking for is impossible to give right now. If new players come into the game as it stands there are two very different versions of nc - retail (the old school way) and the new Test Server way (the future of NC hopefully).

As the second one is COMPLETELY open ended at the moment and nobody really knows what the future will look like nobody can really help you with either precise statistics or even the generic milestones it seems like you are asking for. A lot of things are still subject to potential change.

When the balancing is done and the new skills values/items/whatever else changes has been set into stone then player guides will appear. People will be eager to write up this stuff to help the new guys, there have been some great ones down the years.

As for now all I can suggest is that you ask these new players to learn the game AS IT STANDS right now as plenty of people can help with questions there but tell them to expect a lot of things to change in the future. PVE will always be PVE but the pvp end of the game should theoretically be much easier for them to get a grasp of by just playing around with set ups on the test server.

If you want to get involved and test then you can do, you do not need to be an uber pvp god to stand still and shoot another guy in the face (also standing still) and submit those values (the little red numbers that pop up) on a spreadsheet to the devs. If the new people want to get involved then they can do too, bearing in mind that their experiences are of as much value as everyone elses in this respect.

The thing that you have to understand is, as Dasore hinted at, when it comes to defining classes based on the feel of them in live fighting environments their lack of experience will make things difficult for them to contribute. Nobody here should ever say someone elses opinion is invalid, many will disagree but at the end of the day no opinion is wrong, it is simply an opinion. Only facts can be wrong but when these facts and opinions get crossed over you get arguments.

There will probably be plenty more arguments yet but that is all in the nature of testing this game and everyone here understands that. It was never going to be a nice little tea party when adult males play a game with guns involved.

But yeah feel free to test away to your hearts content but please do understand that at this time your request just cannot really be filled.

Tankjr
25-04-14, 22:00
Tanks for your Adivse, but i say it again. Mate, i dont want any Helps for Setups or 10 Points to set on this and 5 on that - no !
If a Noob opens Nskill for example and tries to build his pic, ..

- he doesnt knows the most possible runspeed which u can get, the Maximum which u maybe have to reach.
Why should i spend 150 to Agylity when this thing is got fixed ? Simple or ? I can read in the past Patchnotes what changed but how should he know when a limit is reached ? And why can^t Dev explain or say this ? I thought they limited the runspeed on retail since Terra, so there must be an answer or something like that which says - People if u spend more then 130 on Agylity, it doesnt maybe take 4% on Performance instead of setting 120 Agyilty and having 100% ??! where is the Problem ? and you Guys say, no there is no Answer for this - sorry have to laugh about.

I dont want to know how many Ressists my Character has to reach,or any other Settings. Those things are simple questions aka Basics and i thought there is maybe an announcement which was placed for the runner since some changes did changed or took effect now.

Another Thing, noob opens his Damage Logs, he can see that Type of Ammo which effects tbc, a lot of numbers and Counts.
How can he know the Limit of this Calculation ? beginning and ending of this Count ? These are Basics for me, if i want to get deeper in this buizz i think its necesary to know this. How should i read this corectly out to talk about whats to much or something ?

That no one wants to speak about his Setups, normaly .. i wouldn^t too.
Dont think to complicated - its simple what i ask for. and if u ask someone, they dumb or speak shit - like always hapens here.
A handfulf of People maybe, not more.

Thanks for Info, back to Topic - its okay for me ...
Just trying out, if Noob is asking me why his allover Ressists doesnt climb up to 100 % in nskill - i can^t asnwer him, sorry for bringing this shit back again.

William Antrim
26-04-14, 01:43
I have started this post about four separate times now and I still cant make out what you are actually trying to say.

You are worrying about some other third party who may or may not have a clue about how the game works and you are having a stress about problems that some other generic individual may or may not have? Youre asking for these solutions for the "noobs" but you acknowledge that the game is in a state of flux here and is subject to massive changes that can and will affect ALL of the gameplay mechanics.

You want some form of direction and clarification on stuff that isnt even yet fully decided and you dont want this for yourself but you want it for some faceless, nameless noobs that youve met in the game? There are about 100 people playing currently at peak and you have managed to find the only genuine noobs and they havent yet made it to the forum so youre arguing for them? If you want help with the current game go to techhaven.org it has all the resources as up to date as you are going to get right now.

Thats how your post reads to me anyway. I am not sure if youre asking for help or making suggestions. I am trying to discern which it is but as previously stated there is no way you will get answers to these questions yet. They havent been decided. It just kind of rambles on a lot and is difficult to follow. Can you possibly just use really short statements saying "I would like to know what the runspeed cap is?" and "I would like to know what the resist cap is?"

This thread is about the latest patches being installed to the test server and therefore it assumes some form of experience and prior knowledge of the game in order to form a baseline understanding and therefore comment accurately on the changes and their effect on the game.

what you keep asking for is stuff that should go in an entirely different forum, the new player forum - failing that if you are fluent in german then perhaps it might be better being posted in the german half of the forum as you might be able to get your point across better there?

I am trying my best to be as clear as I can but it doesnt seem like you even read my previous post tbh.

Tankjr
26-04-14, 09:43
Sorry Guys, keep your Discussion going in.
I recieved a private Message with listed Details which i call ' Basiscs'
The Post is archieved in the Forums (2006)

Specific Listings about each Character, for example how Damage, Aim Speed, Aim Precision, tbc got calculated.
And that we have an Eficency of 1% up from 100 Agyility when spending more Points on it.

Have a nice Weekend and maybe Delete my Postings to go on.
I know that this Thread is about Balancing and i am reading it cafefully.
I understand what the Devs actually want, how to test same classes or different classes shooting 1v1
..and so on.

For me its important to have the Knowledge on Basics to get deeper in those Testings to understand it better.

Thank you all !

I got The Answers for my Question..

Drachenpaladin
26-04-14, 13:38
Now if you might want to share that post so we all could be enlightened...

Tankjr
26-04-14, 14:31
Sorry, Mate ..back to Topic.
Since i started to ask for some Knowledge what i cal *Basics* the Main Discussion stopped.
Or like Kame worte, crashing the whole Thread ;-P

At least, if someone is able to send me an Redirect or pacific instructions how to convert, calculate all the Numbers of the
*Damage Log* it will be helpful.

Thanks, have a nice Weekend !

Divide
26-04-14, 17:58
This thread is beyond tldr, it needs to fork.

brand
27-04-14, 21:42
i m not sure what we should test on the testserver? i was in the shooting range now and you kill people with 2 shots with higher tl weapons. if the damage is reduced so you could do a normal fight you could maybe test the balancing.

jj dynomite
28-04-14, 01:06
i m not sure what we should test on the testserver? i was in the shooting range now and you kill people with 2 shots with higher tl weapons. if the damage is reduced so you could do a normal fight you could maybe test the balancing.

Just test the damage per shot in the shooting range. Make sure you have all of your personal stats, weapon quality, ammo mods and the like logged when your report.

walkman
28-04-14, 13:31
Pretty nice last patches. I like new Wyatt Earp and Backup Gun.

DoTs looks like broken same as injectors, even firemobs deals pretty big damage via DoT. So, I dont know what we will got in the end for DoT-based weapons.

Shootrange room is not a good place. First it is indoor. Outdoor's range calculations has different mechanic. Secondly, mobs in the room moves through "walls" and this is annoying.

Something I cant understand. I did tests in DoY sector 5, sidestreet. And tests showed that DPS/DPM of Judge and Slasher less then in Shootrange room. I used xray ammo mod for all pistols. And Judge with Slasher looks bad there. While Backup Gun, Liberator and TT epic pistol took first places. Anyway, on firemobs Judge, Slasher doing misses and damage that they deal still less. I suppose you may look at them closer. May be I am wrong and dont know something...

I saw that you changed MRL shot frequency too. Its good decision and I like it.

I will try to complete some tests in PvP later.

In general, I like last patches. Thank you!

----

UPDATE

Suggestion I: put in shootrange room mobs which people know. Or create another room. Because I cant even say damage increased or decreased. I know that damage weapons deals on Titan on some mobs, and in shootrange room unknown mobs. How to compare? Or what we need to compare? In description of weapon we may see what tyoe of damage and how many damages it deals already.

Suggestion II: If first suggestion can not be completed when open all (or 50%+) OPs. Its not funny run from one point 3-5 sectors to complete tests in another sector. There are not so many people who make tests in OP fight. And if they are doing this they could close OP for that moment.

Bifrost
28-04-14, 15:07
DoTs looks like broken same as injectors, even firemobs deals pretty big damage via DoT. So, I dont know what we will got in the end for DoT-based weapons.


@Walkman - I'm currently doing some investigation on nanites. Can you let me know which nanite injector tool you are using, and which nanites you have tested with. Also let me know your character class, INT, IMP and T-C skills please. If you are using the personal injector tools, let me know your CON and HLT skills as well please.

walkman
28-04-14, 15:35
Nickname: Walkman
Class: PE, full capped with woc dex +3

INT: 59 (-1)
STR: 58 (-2)
CON: 66 (+1)
DEX: 101 (+21)
PSI: 35

Brain: SSP, CCP, SFC and CCC v1.2
Pistol eye 0.3
Strengten heart 2.0
Recycke glove
Exp. reflexbooster v2.4

Injectors: TL 16 and TL 40
Health: 75 (+13)
P-C: 222 (+85)
T-C: 89 (+47)
AGI: 76 (+26)
Recycle: 24 (+13)

The issue with injectors written in their description. Numbers are very big. In first time TL 40 deals around -40 hp and then insta-heal to maximum. They are stays same from patch T186. It is good to have such insta-heal tool for testing purposes :)

You may watch at changes on firemobs. Where you see Doomreapers those through at you 2 dots and in next seconds you lose half life? Seriosly, on Titan doomreapers cant cause such damage. I am wearing full inq set + light fire resi belt. Fire stats: 130/163/136.

And now I tested Hoppers. Well, on Titan I can survive with 3-4 DoT from Hopper. What is happenning on Veedena? Two DoT took 600+ hp for same setup. Own fire resistance is 50.

Thank you.

walkman
28-04-14, 18:53
Jump and fall == insta-death. Before my previous post this was not an issue....

---

Titan:

DAMAGEINFO - Time 5629.471 Damage (Walkman): WeaponID 620, DmgID 2240, DmgFac 0.670, Energy 2.680, Effect 26.264, Height 57.000
DamageCause: Injector!
DamageType: Direct!
INS - PCR: 2.680
DOT - FUL: 13.400, DoT: 4030, Duration: 30.000
DOT - FUL: 12.864, DoT: 4037, Duration: 30.000

DAMAGEINFO - Time 5631.875 Damage (HOPPER): WeaponID 0, DmgID 1701, DmgFac 52.910, Energy 52.910, Effect 0.000, Height 0.000
DamageCause: No weapon!
DamageType: Over Time!
INS - FIR: 52.910

DAMAGEINFO - Time 5632.125 Damage (Walkman): WeaponID 620, DmgID 2250, DmgFac -12.850, Energy -12.850, Effect 0.000, Height 75.000
DamageCause: Injector!
DamageType: Direct!
INS - FUL: -12.850

Veedena:

DAMAGEINFO - Time 6424.116 Damage (Walkman): WeaponID 620, DmgID 2240, DmgFac 1.300, Energy 130.000, Effect 50.960, Height 57.000
DamageCause: Injector!
DamageType: Direct!
INS - PCR: 130.000
DOT - FUL: 26.000, DoT: 4030, Duration: 30.000
DOT - FUL: 24.960, DoT: 4037, Duration: 30.000

DAMAGEINFO - Time 6426.303 Damage (HOPPER): WeaponID 0, DmgID 1701, DmgFac 1.008, Energy 100.800, Effect 0.000, Height 0.000
DamageCause: No weapon!
DamageType: Over Time!
INS - FIR: 100.800

DAMAGEINFO - Time 6426.387 Damage (Walkman): WeaponID 620, DmgID 2250, DmgFac -24.950, Energy -2495.000, Effect 0.000, Height 21.000
DamageCause: Injector!
DamageType: Direct!
INS - FUL: -2495.000

And fall on Veedena:

DAMAGEINFO - Time 6633.367 Damage (Walkman): WeaponID 0, DmgID 2000, DmgFac 39.226, Energy 3922.644, Effect 0.000, Height 0.000
DamageCause: No weapon!
DamageType: Collision!
INS - FUL: 3922.644
DAMAGEINFO - Log object successfully destroyed!

walkman
29-04-14, 04:49
I had review my vision situation with DoTs. I suppose what we have in current time on Titan is acceptable behavior for current, so called "broken", DoT system. We no need to warry about mobs on Veedena and focus on PvP part. After that you should to able to adjust damage for mobs. Because, when DoT works as we wish then mobs, of course. deals a lot of damages. It is ok.

Also, may be I am wrong here and I need to check my idea. Perhaps, DoT bypass armor and stat resistance. If you are sure that is wrong, then, seems to be we need to decrease DoT damage to acceptable levels. And everything will be fine.

Next. About Steiner 1.0 and stun effect. In future are you plan to add correct behavior for this effect? I will be glad to see its re-worked. I see this like that. Suppose effect should decrease char stats, such ATH/AGI. And if this effect would be stackable, then with more stacks the player char will move slower and slower. This is all that we (at least me) expect. Of course some mobs will cause this effect too. As I know warbots throw shock effect, and this is why warbies so slow.

I think no one believed that we will be so close to right behavior of weapons. DoT it is not exception, we just was not prepared to see it working almostly perfect. Also you should note, that DoT is damage which does not requires any skills except run far away. The hunter need just cover in safe place and wait while victim is dying. Of course, victim should use antidotes and antishockers. And all these tools already is present in game. So, we going on right way.

And do not be angry if I said obvious things.

Thanks!

P.S. Please fix fall damage. It is not fun.

Sevendust
29-04-14, 12:14
THe main problem still with APUs is the buggyness of the new spell no-miss aiming. It seems if you fire too fast (clicking again right when it's ready to cast another), it'll bug & take 2 - 2.5X the normal cast time. Like a long fizzle, except it actually damages at the end. Problem is it happens alot.

Alduin
03-05-14, 10:43
T#191 is live! Shields and heals have been rebalanced. Also the overall damage output has been lowered by a factor of ~ 2. Please focus testing on PvP in general and keep in mind: we dont have pure DoT weapons. All weapons which deal DoT usually only deal a minor DoT effect. Read their descriptions carefully!

lawless
03-05-14, 18:23
So i just made a character on the testserver. Twilight Guardian because.. fun and stuff..
I like the transportation right out of the MC5 to plaza 1. Yet i forgot to take the generep there, marched for the SUPER HARD MISSION guy and got killed by the rat. I haven't got killed by a rat in years.

Alright, back at the canyon (remember - no generep taken at plaza 1, how unthoughtful of me :D), i jumped down towards the next staircase like i always did. Then i died.

Alright, back at the canyon i took the stairs down to the generep, activated that stuff, jumped in the railing of the stairway to have a better look down, tripped and then i died.

Alright, back at the canyon i looked for an exit to plaza 1, now tired of looking and making another character (no to remember to get plaza 1 generep :D).

When did the death-by-fall be activated again?

lawless
03-05-14, 19:49
You may have some problems with your code regarding the checks on how much damage a runner will take in an fall. I just slided like 2 metres in the wastelands and ended up dead (tank, nearly capped).

What i do like for now is the balance aligned to the techlevel of the items, which will hopefully give a push to pistols and melee again. I would propose to set the alignment free with the next retail patch.

Regardless the overall damage output of a tank is now 1 / 3rd of what it has been on retail:
Creed 32.864 -> 11562
SP CA Plasma Wave 28.500 -> 10.790

With that in mind, do not forget to balance PVE also. Make them do less damage if you want to keep their health (which has been greatly pushed when BDoY arrived as far as i remember).

For PVP balance the TL-alignment is alright.. yes there is some need of minor adjustments for resist skills and armor - i just do not think you will be able to do that from the minimal data you get from the testserver.

Keep up the good work though, i like what i've seen so far :)

Bragi
04-05-14, 04:55
You may have some problems with your code regarding the checks on how much damage a runner will take in an fall. I just slided like 2 metres in the wastelands and ended up dead (tank, nearly capped).
We are aware of the problem; Due to some background changes the base fall damage value was increased. It should be fixed before anything hits retail.


With that in mind, do not forget to balance PVE also. Make them do less damage if you want to keep their health (which has been greatly pushed when BDoY arrived as far as i remember).

We can adjust PvE damage and EvP damage quite easily. We aim to look at PvE in more detail at a later stage, PvP being the priority, but a 'temporary' fix could be put in place.


there is some need of minor adjustments for resist skills and armor - i just do not think you will be able to do that from the minimal data you get from the testserver.

Our current focus is on the shape of the Proportional DPM curve and if what we have come up with fits with what is experienced ingame.
As I mentioned in my previous post about the different stages of the process, some aspects of the game are deeply flawed; armour, resists and the implant system are not conducive to variety or balance.
All of those will be addressed at some point.

Dasore
04-05-14, 20:45
okay so first impressions of the new patch:


-PPU shields: We were killing a tank with a Creed, with ppu shields and without. It always took the same amount of shots. 8.. Hc 230 TC 110, the victim got 80 Energy resist and 186 Armor Energy, creed was high voltage. So the Ppu shields dont change anything on the dmg taken by high tl weapons, slasher/disruptor/creed. Thats what we first thought of. After a bit of testing it seems like deflector and protector work, but the absorber isnt. Both lower the dmg taken by about 25%

-Healing light did 2x40 on a tank without shields/resists/armor, and the first love did 160 a burst, disruptor was 500 a burst. So sth wrong with the dpm?

-Tl10 Pe casted heal heals as much as a holy of a ppu

-The Dmg a stack weapon does seems to be right 280 on hit of devourer and 70 a tick, with cerosion ammo (78 fire/22 for 16 secs)

After a bit of testing everyone still feels like the dmg is still way to high, honestly the low-midrareweapons doing okay, just need to be lowered a bit, but the high tl onces, fl, creed, disruptor do way too much. Strange is that the healing light for example doesnt really do dmg...

Kame
04-05-14, 20:57
Well on the "Proportional DPM/TL" :


I still completely disagree with that idea. It's bad, and the time I HAVE spent today with my clanmates on Vedeena proved what I've been saying this whole time :


WERE ALL STILL GOING TO USE THE MOST DAMAGING WEAPONS IN THE RANGE FOR PVP !!!


I mean it's not rocket science, people are competitive about pvp and the fact that lower TL = less damage speaks by itself. That is if you have the ability to reason in a logical and practical way. Not everything in life is as good as appears on paper.


Also the way it felt in early NC2/NC1 was : TL of weapons was mainly used to limit access to weapons based on implant setup/character class.





On PPU shields :


I dont even why this is being brought up in focus at this point. You guys showed us a timeline and youre supposed to focus on weapons yet you leave the weapons characteristics intact and then go ahead and adjust PPU modules. You obviously created an issue with your module adjustment tooling system and are too stubborn to reconsider and are trying to patch it left and right (fall damage, ppu modules, stack damage... lol EVERYTHING damage realated).





Bugs :


-The PE cast TL10 heals is healing as much as a PPU cast foreign holy heal.

-The blue shield doesnt work at all (no damage reduction).

-Also stupid design features like heal bonus on headshot heal is still effective.





Last thoughts :

Why do you guys not look at the overall features instead of focus on raw numbers (which you still get wrong, because you dont analyse properly in the first place) ??



You seem to be trying to adjust all modules (ppu spells, weapons, etc) with the same tool, in one go, based on TL.

Then you tell us you only want to focus on weapons, but you adjust/tweak ALL MODULES (including PPU modules, stack damage, fall damage) ???




Wrong approach, wrong tool, hence the weird unexpected in-game behavior and then the resulting waste of time.

Torg
04-05-14, 23:30
kame, may i remind you that at least serious parts of Neocron are spagetti code from hell? development of this game was started in another millennium (literally. before 2000) and has been reworked numerous times by different coders since. so changing one thing can get you several unexpected results. i dont believe the current dev team isnt capable of solving those problems. but, you know, its a jungle out there. thats why all this tweaking and analyzing is happening on a copy (vedeena), not on the original (titan) server. if everything goes boom on Ved, we still can unplug it and keep partying like its 1999 (or 2005, sortof).

Drachenpaladin
04-05-14, 23:39
kame, may i remind you that at least serious parts of Neocron are spagetti code from hell? development of this game was started in another millennium (literally. before 2000) and has been reworked numerous times by different coders since. so changing one thing can get you several unexpected results. i dont believe the current dev team isnt capable of solving those problems. but, you know, its a jungle out there. thats why all this tweaking and analyzing is happening on a copy (vedeena), not on the original (titan) server. if everything goes boom on Ved, we still can unplug it and keep partying like its 1999 (or 2005, sortof).
Yay! Reason! Here! In this forum!

Anyway. Roughly seven to nine years have been invested into borking Neocrons code. Its not gonna be untangled in just one or two. Whether code wise nor mechanics wise.

Kame
05-05-14, 04:45
Anyway. Roughly seven to nine years have been invested into borking Neocrons code. Its not gonna be untangled in just one or two. Whether code wise nor mechanics wise.


I dont code a lot of things in life, but if I had a whacky code to work with, last thing I would do is implement a function that interracts on a lot of aspects all at once. Common sense in my opinion.




/Edit

All this talk about how shit the code is do not excuse the fact that were going at it the wrong way right now.

Why not simply adjust every item from TL75 and up manually ??
Youre still going to have to re-adjust them no matter what the Porportional DPM/TL curve is.

Kame
05-05-14, 20:10
kame, may i remind you that at least serious parts of Neocron are spagetti code from hell? development of this game was started in another millennium (literally. before 2000) and has been reworked numerous times by different coders since. so changing one thing can get you several unexpected results. i dont believe the current dev team isnt capable of solving those problems.


Now this.

Ill agree with you for once Torg and go ahead and say that I dont believe the dev team is capable of solving those problems either.


It doesnt matter one bit how old or how tangled the code is. What you need to understand is that the way we go about it right now is wrong. I much favor small, incremental and controlled changes instead of a "tool" that dynamically arranges every aspects of weapons/damage parameters based on a given expected output.



They are creating more issues and raising more questions with the current approach.

Example : they wanted to focus on weapons, but now they have to put time on shields, heals, fall damage, stack damage and possibly more.

Reason : wrong approach to the current problem. That "adjust all in one go" mentality...

Fix :

[Edited]

Im gonna go out on a limb and say this : Krazor, Giga and Mr Trip altogether can probably fix PVP balance in Neocron way better than the current dev team.

Tino
05-05-14, 20:48
Unfortunately I have fought against hackers in neocron who could change 1 gun to what they wanted....why can't the dev team do this too?

aKe`cj
05-05-14, 22:52
Im gonna go out on a limb and say this : Krazor, Giga and Mr Trip altogether can probably fix PVP balance in Neocron way better than the current dev team.

going by what I know and have seen of either parties work, I must strongly disagree.
they could sticky-tape-hot-glue-adjust PvP to a workable state, probably yes.
the NST would be able to do the same if they wanted, but they chose not to (personally, I believe it might have been worth the distraction just to ease the pain for players while the long term balancing changes are being worked on behind the scenes).

they have chosen to fix the underlying mechanics, which is more in line with their announced agenda of putting effort in long-term solutions, rather than quick fixes. I don't want to put words in the mouth of the NST, but I believe they looked at the 2.2 project and the intention behind those game-breaking changes - to create robust, future proof balance mechanics that make it easier to introduce new items and tweak balance without fear of unwanted side effects.

as much as I stand behind this agenda in general, I very much fear that the amount of work required to pull this off is beyond what the NST can contribute and I don't think that crowdsourcing the effort will work, due to the complexities involved.

I really don't believe that the people working on the task are the problem.
There are extremely(!) capable tech guys and extremely committed contributors among them.
I fear that the task, as has been set by those people, could just be too grand.

Kame
06-05-14, 19:04
(...)
they could sticky-tape-hot-glue-adjust PvP to a workable state, probably yes.
the NST would be able to do the same if they wanted, but they chose not to (personally, I believe it might have been worth the distraction just to ease the pain for players while the long term balancing changes are being worked on behind the scenes).


I fully agree with that there.

I also agree that the dev team have the talent to get us where we want to go. They have proven their talents with previous patches, by fixing decade old bugs and annoyances.

However I have a lot of doubts as to the approach taken to balancing, as it sounds exactly the same as the 2.2 balancing, and it failed so miserably.

William Antrim
09-05-14, 16:42
You guys complaining about damage havent thought big picture here yet then clearly. Youre comparing damage done now vs armour values now and saying its too high. Too high for what? Too high to pvp because the guy is gonna get ganked before he gets his gun out?

this might well be the case but just zoom out here for a second and think of things from the bigger picture. That value is with current armour values and current implants. I think that at this stage all they really want is to see the ratios and values per TL working correctly.

At the end of the day who is to say that they dont bring out a load of chips which nerf the shit out of one main stat but boost the hell out of the other. Say -5 dex and +5 strength for example and then they bring out armour and implants to boost the defence of a player using the lower tl damage guns?

What if tank armour suddenly got made to be dexterity based? If they had high damage and high constitution but were forced to wear lower level armour (which was less restrictive to their bodies if you want to stay with the lore and rp) or lighter armour which lowered their defensive bonuses from armour then you would have a class with high damage, high resist from con and low resist from armour. There would be the tanks weakness.

Likewise they could add some armour for spies that gave them really high resists if they specced the right chips for it, but these chips could lower their dex drastically so that they had to opt for a lower level weapon to do damage with.

Saying everyone will go for the highest level gun is just an nc2.2 way of thinking because youve been forced down that path by the current mechanics in play.

what if psi buffs from the pe gave you double the damage resist they do currently, so that the pe would need to choose between fighting and rebuffing himself again, like he could do in nc1?

What if buff mechanics changed so much that the buffs were 10 minutes long so that the PE could buff and fight for longer without any issues like he has now? this extension in time would be a massive boost to the PE in terms of 1v1 fighting as he could be a capable fighter - possibly even THE fighter to have for duels once again.

Just because something hasnt happened yet doesnt mean it wont.

Trivaldi
09-05-14, 17:09
That value is with current armour values and current implants. I think that at this stage all they really want is to see the ratios and values per TL working correctly.
We really are running out of ways to say the above.

It's worth re-reading Bragi's post (http://forum.neocron-game.com/showthread.php?155325-R-186-T-186-T-191-Patch-Discussion&p=2226064&viewfull=1#post2226064) for some of that bigger picture.

Tino
10-05-14, 04:06
Timeline when this patch will go retail? Neocron is boring without pvp and everyone is waiting for new patch to participate in pvp...

Teal`c
10-05-14, 09:15
Timeline when this patch will go retail? Neocron is boring without pvp and everyone is waiting for new patch to participate in pvp...

Including implant and armor changes probably summer 2015 or later.

Alduin
10-05-14, 16:20
Including implant and armor changes probably summer 2015 or later.

Definitely no! ASAP. However that mainly depends on the community. People have to test and make sure that nothing breaks and that it feels more balanced than before. This means we need your feedback and also quite some testing on actual numbers. The more setups are tried, the more stuff is tested the faster we can fix all the problems.

aKe`cj
10-05-14, 16:37
Including implant and armor changes probably summer 2015 or later


Definitely no! ASAP. However that mainly depends on the community.

Without sounding like the pessimist that I am,
but that's exactly why Teal`c might not be so wrong ;)

Tino
11-05-14, 00:01
So why is the community being blamed for this patch taking foooooooorever? Whats left of this community is dedicated but the responsibility should ultimately be placed on the team in charge of the game tbh...you have to somehow get people excited again about neocron and lemme tell ya its not happening =(

Drachenpaladin
11-05-14, 00:12
So why is the community being blamed for this patch taking foooooooorever? Whats left of this community is dedicated but the responsibility should ultimately be placed on the team in charge of the game tbh...you have to somehow get people excited again about neocron and lemme tell ya its not happening =(

How often has this been happening now? People jump off the ship whenever a bit rough weather hits up.

If the devs have to work with a reliable team of 3 community members its of course going to take ages to verify and test the most basic things...

But all that people bother doing is to complain about everything. About things talking so long, about things not going after their whim, about a test server having bugs...

Torg
11-05-14, 01:04
fixed this conversation for you, from original quotes:

...when this patch will go retail?

... that mainly depends on the community.

...why is the community being blamed for this patch taking foooooooorever?

People have to test and make sure that nothing breaks and that it feels more balanced than before.

Neocron is boring without pvp and everyone is waiting for new patch to participate in pvp...
its like nobody ever reads anything anymore. really. let me apologize for being just a tiny little fed up by kids demanding improvement rights on an otherwise free and very enjoyable service. may i also point out to the fact that this current balancing project is gathering data on a large scale, something thats never been done before in NC? so allow me to kindly ask you to contribute here.

Tino
11-05-14, 03:31
[Edited - Use the report post button]