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Tino
11-05-14, 03:38
Also LOL at the guy thinking im jumping ship...you obviously don't know me but ill see this game to its grave =)

Drachenpaladin
11-05-14, 04:55
[Edited]

Tino
11-05-14, 16:52
[Edited - Please use the report post button in future - thanks]

MayhemMichael
11-05-14, 16:53
Just read Kame and Dasores post from a few pages back.. We tested everything and they posted our thoughts on it. I dont think theres been a new patch since then..

If you want the community help release server code and game will be fixed in less than a month or not, choice is yours.

Alduin
11-05-14, 18:16
Back to topic and back to testing the things, as well as delivering the numbers which we have actually requested. The people who continue to derail this thread will receive the privilege of having holiday from the brainport, so be kind to each other and stick on topic: we need actual numbers.

MayhemMichael
11-05-14, 18:24
okay so first impressions of the new patch:


-PPU shields: We were killing a tank with a Creed, with ppu shields and without. It always took the same amount of shots. 8.. Hc 230 TC 110, the victim got 80 Energy resist and 186 Armor Energy, creed was high voltage. So the Ppu shields dont change anything on the dmg taken by high tl weapons, slasher/disruptor/creed. Thats what we first thought of. After a bit of testing it seems like deflector and protector work, but the absorber isnt. Both lower the dmg taken by about 25%

-Healing light did 2x40 on a tank without shields/resists/armor, and the first love did 160 a burst, disruptor was 500 a burst. So sth wrong with the dpm?

-Tl10 Pe casted heal heals as much as a holy of a ppu

-The Dmg a stack weapon does seems to be right 280 on hit of devourer and 70 a tick, with cerosion ammo (78 fire/22 for 16 secs)

After a bit of testing everyone still feels like the dmg is still way to high, honestly the low-midrareweapons doing okay, just need to be lowered a bit, but the high tl onces, fl, creed, disruptor do way too much. Strange is that the healing light for example doesnt really do dmg...

this is our testing after last patch aludin

Kame
11-05-14, 23:00
Why dont you guys write a script that tests all your new stuff instead of relying on a community of stoners ?



Better yet : why dont you guys simply test it yourselves. I'm kinda tired of being told to test this or that in a very vague way just to have every report I make disregarded. You dont even acknowledge that you notice our reports. Besides I dont even agree with your approach, Im testing because I have interest in the game, But it feels like Im just wasting my time.


I get more feedback from you guys when you remove the pictures in my posts than when I'm actually puting in time and testing stuff.

If you wanted us to use the new, detailed damage logs, you couldve asked.




In short, it sucks to test for you guys.









BTW :

Also I spoke with Dasore, and Dasore is Dasore on the forums.

Kame from forums is simply.... wait for it.... Kame.

Bragi
13-05-14, 02:23
Why dont you guys write a script that tests all your new stuff instead of relying on a community of stoners ?



Better yet : why dont you guys simply test it yourselves.
We do test ourselves.
However we are only a few people and we may not notice things.
The absorber and tl10 heal problems slipped through and was only brought up by the community.

Both of the issues that caused these bugs have now been identified and will be fixed.


I'm kinda tired of being told to test this or that in a very vague way just to have every report I make disregarded. You dont even acknowledge that you notice our reports. Besides I dont even agree with your approach, Im testing because I have interest in the game, But it feels like Im just wasting my time.

Any data has value.

However, we have internally been talking about the same issue; the lack of specific instruction regarding testing.

It's quite late at the moment, but tomorrow I will post what we would like to see from you guys.
Of course, each patch/set of changes requires different tests, so laying out what we want needs to become a regular feature with each release that has been lacking recently.

Regarding speed, some things that may seem simple to fix (and in many ways are simple too fix), may take more time than it takes to fix a specific problem.
However, the problem often highlights or originates from a more fundamental issue; either with the base code or our new development tools. These then also have to be fixed, rather than band-aiding the fault.
For example: The absorber issue is easily fixed, but it revealed a tool error that if not corrected will cause further delays in the future. It is better to fix both now so that the total progress delay down the line is reduced.

Alduin
13-05-14, 10:11
Let me add a few additional bits and pieces to Bragi's post in reply to Kame's post.


Why dont you guys write a script that tests all your new stuff instead of relying on a community of stoners ?

Writing a script sounds so easy, doesn't it? Sadly it is not as simply as using one of the very popular macroing tools. Switching weapons, obtaining weapons, skill setups, documentation and more need to be properly automatized. That's not possible with a simply macroing tool.
Another option would be to write an automized testing client, which we would very much like to do, however this is by no means an easy task and would take quite a long time. You cannot simply take the existing client and tell it to "jump", "shoot", "construct", ..., it will also have to react to the results of those actions, needs to time its actions correctly, needs to react to other players, needs to find the correct target and so on and so forth. We simply do not have the manpower to create an AI as complex as that. At the moment I am the only one who is actively working on the source code of the server and the client. Most of the people who applied so far to join the community effort were not even motivated enough/did not show enough endurance to complete a smaller qualification tasks.


Better yet : why dont you guys simply test it yourselves. I'm kinda tired of being told to test this or that in a very vague way just to have every report I make disregarded. You dont even acknowledge that you notice our reports. Besides I dont even agree with your approach, Im testing because I have interest in the game, But it feels like Im just wasting my time.
After all we are not perfect and as Bragi already mentioned: we also miss issues from time to time, therefore we need your feedback. I aggree, we did not make it very clear which numbers exactly we want/need. This part of the balancing project is not about the perceived balancing, that will happen at a later stage once we know that what we put in is what comes out at your end. We cannot fix the actual balancing in case a change affects different skill setups differently, which is what is currently happening if you would fiddle around with the weapons on Titan. This is one of the main issues why balance on Titan is broken and band-aid fixing will not help much.



I get more feedback from you guys when you remove the pictures in my posts than when I'm actually puting in time and testing stuff.

If you wanted us to use the new, detailed damage logs, you couldve asked.
We should probably have gone further and provided an example spreadsheet which you can use to calculate the dpm values, as well as instructions on how to obtain all the necessary values. As Bragi stated, we will correct that issue.

Kame
13-05-14, 13:38
Thanks for the reply, gives me hope for NC, and a bit more will to test.


Also I recommend you enable te attachment function on the forums : originaly I wanted yo upload the .txt files from my logs but couldnt.

Would help de-clutter our posts.

Trivaldi
13-05-14, 14:34
Also I recommend you enable te attachment function on the forums : originaly I wanted yo upload the .txt files from my logs but couldnt.
I'll look into this, we did have this available for registered users in the past.

Bragi
13-05-14, 19:52
Righty then.

For subsequent patches, we'll aim to provide a more precise explanation and framework for what exactly needs to be tested, and provide them when they go live.

For the current patch, there's three areas that we want you guys to explore; Shields, heals and weapons.

The first thing we need you to do is ensure your logs are active. In the neocron.ini file in your test client folder, check the presence of or add the following line:

ENABLELOG = "TRUE"

In the log folder you will generate a <char_name>_00.log and Damage_00.log with each game session. A new session renames these to <char_name>_01.log and Damage_01.log and a new '00' is created (and so on until there are six logs for each; 00 - 05).
Damage_00.log is used for all characters, <char_name>_00.log is used for a specific character. A different character will generate it's own set of logs.
These are continuously updated as a session progresses, closing and opening them again will show new data for any event subsequent from the first opening.


Shields:

This may require a lot of time and effort.

Each shield needs to be tested, both for foreign and self cast performance. We would also like to see data from different values of PPU, FCS and PPW.
And by shields we mean all. Normal, blessed, holy, rare, nanite and even psi shield if you want to.

As shields degrade with each hit, we would also like to see how rapidly they drop.

This is best done with at least two people.

Data we want:

After each hit, look in the <char_name>_00.log of the 'victim' and record the shield reduction percentage. The line will look like this:

Damage: 116.732 (Reduction: 291.212 - 71.385 Percentage) - Damage reduced by shield

The number in bold is the one we need.

The value the first time a shield is hit is the most important one. When it comes to shield deterioration, the first five values, the tenth and the twentieth would be good (or all of them if you really have time on your hands).


Heals:

Same as the shields. Both the damage log and <char_name> log will record the heal value. Test all the different heals, foreign and self cast and ideally for different skill values.
All we need is the per-tick damage value.


Weapons:

Similar deal again, though you don't necessarily have to bother with the logs for the most part.

Decide on a sub-skill value.
Load a weapon.
Record from the info-screen the damage values under the Ammo/Dmg: section and the displayed frequency value above it.
Go to the shooting range and fire the weapon at one of the mobs, recording the instant, per-hit damage (this is so we can compare how the weapons work vs. how they say they work).
You will need to use the logs for DoT weapons, in which case, record the per-tick amount.

Change your sub-skills and repeat.
(Most useful if you start at low TL (75) and progress upwards.)

We are currently looking at what file types we can add to the list of permitted attachments. We should hopefully have that done before you've finished gathering data.

Torg
13-05-14, 23:03
At the moment I am the only one who is actively working on the source code of the server and the client. Which is making you official hero of the radiated wastes. and it explains quite a lot. so, this project asks for on-the-fly coding, project management, forum moderation and betatesting? no wonder you guys are overworked. but yes, more detailed requests would be helpful for the good cause.

Divide
14-05-14, 04:51
Righty then.

...Stuff...


This was an awesome post. Why would you tuck it away on page 18?

Pierre Dole
14-05-14, 10:10
A (maybe stupid) question: Whats wrong with the current balance/why do you want to change it?

I'm not happy about that the frequency doesnt depend on the skill anymore. For example my barter has 0 WEP and something more than 90 R-C. He can uses the Terminator, its good enough for doing epic missions. But why such underskilled char should shoot with the same speed like a full caped rifle spy?

The other thing is, you are going to make it harder for new players. Imagin a player who use a 'bad' weapon bought from an NPC. He will be punished twice. Less damage as before and longer time for grow up in a game full of caped and WoCed runners.

Alduin
14-05-14, 11:56
This was an awesome post. Why would you tuck it away on page 18?
Just added a link to it on top of the patchnotes.


A (maybe stupid) question: Whats wrong with the current balance/why do you want to change it?
There are several things broken in the current balance, the most important one: out of the plethora of setups available only a hand full of them is viable. There are a few "overpowered" weapons/setups which severeley limits the observed diversity in game. However this "overpoweredness"/this lack of diversity does not stem from falsely set damage modifiers per weapon, it is a flaw in the way the damage output of weapons depends on the skills. The damage output hierarchy of weapons looks severely different for different skill setups which heavily limits your choice.

The balancing stage we are currently in will not yet fix the lack of diversity. However it will fix the change of the hierarchy with different skill setups and make the high end weapons more equal (so in a way it will already make more weapons viable). In addition we are verifying that what our tool predicts is also what comes out at your end for various different skill setups and especially to make sure our toolset does not contain any bugs.



I'm not happy about that the frequency doesnt depend on the skill anymore. For example my barter has 0 WEP and something more than 90 R-C. He can uses the Terminator, its good enough for doing epic missions. But why such underskilled char should shoot with the same speed like a full caped rifle spy?

The other thing is, you are going to make it harder for new players. Imagin a player who use a 'bad' weapon bought from an NPC. He will be punished twice. Less damage as before and longer time for grow up in a game full of caped and WoCed runners.
This dependency is what messed up the damage output hierarchy. There are of course many different ways to possibly account for it and fix it. We chose for removing it, because after all the shot frequency of most weapons (especially the automatic ones) is mainly limited by its design. In addition, it was the easiest and cleanest solution which did not introduce any additional dependencies and corrections which we might need to make.

On the evaluation of the logs: maybe there is a volunteer in the community which wants to/can help in automatizing the evaluation of the logs by writing a small open-source tool?

Dasore
14-05-14, 13:50
So here are my first test results, that what u guys wanted?

PPU RARESHIELDS TESTET ON PPU SELFCAST this and the next 2 posts

DEFLECTION: 170 PPU 115 FOC 60 PPW

Damage: 67.054 (Reduction: 120.478 - 64.244 Percentage) - Damage reduced by shield
Damage: 68.305 (Reduction: 119.226 - 63.577 Percentage) - Damage reduced by shield
Damage: 69.556 (Reduction: 117.975 - 62.910 Percentage) - Damage reduced by shield
Damage: 70.807 (Reduction: 116.724 - 62.243 Percentage) - Damage reduced by shield
Damage: 72.058 (Reduction: 115.473 - 61.575 Percentage) - Damage reduced by shield
Damage: 73.309 (Reduction: 114.222 - 60.908 Percentage) - Damage reduced by shield
Damage: 74.560 (Reduction: 112.971 - 60.241 Percentage) - Damage reduced by shield
Damage: 75.811 (Reduction: 111.720 - 59.574 Percentage) - Damage reduced by shield
Damage: 77.062 (Reduction: 110.469 - 58.907 Percentage) - Damage reduced by shield
Damage: 78.313 (Reduction: 109.218 - 58.240 Percentage) - Damage reduced by shield
Damage: 79.564 (Reduction: 107.967 - 57.573 Percentage) - Damage reduced by shield
Damage: 80.816 (Reduction: 106.716 - 56.906 Percentage) - Damage reduced by shield
Damage: 82.067 (Reduction: 105.464 - 56.238 Percentage) - Damage reduced by shield
Damage: 83.318 (Reduction: 104.213 - 55.571 Percentage) - Damage reduced by shield

DEFLECTION: 160 PPU 115 FOC 60 PPW

Damage: 70.834 (Reduction: 116.698 - 62.228 Percentage) - Damage reduced by shield
Damage: 72.085 (Reduction: 115.446 - 61.561 Percentage) - Damage reduced by shield
Damage: 73.336 (Reduction: 114.195 - 60.894 Percentage) - Damage reduced by shield
Damage: 74.587 (Reduction: 112.944 - 60.227 Percentage) - Damage reduced by shield
Damage: 75.838 (Reduction: 111.693 - 59.560 Percentage) - Damage reduced by shield
Damage: 77.089 (Reduction: 110.442 - 58.893 Percentage) - Damage reduced by shield
Damage: 78.340 (Reduction: 109.191 - 58.226 Percentage) - Damage reduced by shield
Damage: 79.591 (Reduction: 107.940 - 57.558 Percentage) - Damage reduced by shield
Damage: 80.842 (Reduction: 106.689 - 56.891 Percentage) - Damage reduced by shield
Damage: 82.093 (Reduction: 105.438 - 56.224 Percentage) - Damage reduced by shield
Damage: 83.344 (Reduction: 104.187 - 55.557 Percentage) - Damage reduced by shield
Damage: 84.596 (Reduction: 102.936 - 54.890 Percentage) - Damage reduced by shield
Damage: 85.847 (Reduction: 101.684 - 54.223 Percentage) - Damage reduced by shield
Damage: 87.098 (Reduction: 100.433 - 53.556 Percentage) - Damage reduced by shield

DEFLECTION: 150 PPU 115 FOC 60 PPW

Damage: 74.828 (Reduction: 112.703 - 60.098 Percentage) - Damage reduced by shield
Damage: 76.079 (Reduction: 111.452 - 59.431 Percentage) - Damage reduced by shield
Damage: 77.330 (Reduction: 110.201 - 58.764 Percentage) - Damage reduced by shield
Damage: 78.581 (Reduction: 108.950 - 58.097 Percentage) - Damage reduced by shield
Damage: 79.832 (Reduction: 107.699 - 57.430 Percentage) - Damage reduced by shield
Damage: 81.083 (Reduction: 106.448 - 56.763 Percentage) - Damage reduced by shield
Damage: 82.334 (Reduction: 105.197 - 56.096 Percentage) - Damage reduced by shield
Damage: 83.586 (Reduction: 103.946 - 55.428 Percentage) - Damage reduced by shield
Damage: 84.837 (Reduction: 102.694 - 54.761 Percentage) - Damage reduced by shield
Damage: 86.088 (Reduction: 101.443 - 54.094 Percentage) - Damage reduced by shield
Damage: 87.339 (Reduction: 100.192 - 53.427 Percentage) - Damage reduced by shield
Damage: 88.590 (Reduction: 98.941 - 52.760 Percentage) - Damage reduced by shield
Damage: 89.841 (Reduction: 97.690 - 52.093 Percentage) - Damage reduced by shield

DEFLECTION: 170 PPU 105 FOC 60 PPW

Damage: 69.061 (Reduction: 118.470 - 63.173 Percentage) - Damage reduced by shield
Damage: 70.312 (Reduction: 117.219 - 62.506 Percentage) - Damage reduced by shield
Damage: 71.563 (Reduction: 115.968 - 61.839 Percentage) - Damage reduced by shield
Damage: 74.066 (Reduction: 113.466 - 60.505 Percentage) - Damage reduced by shield
Damage: 75.317 (Reduction: 112.214 - 59.838 Percentage) - Damage reduced by shield
Damage: 76.568 (Reduction: 110.963 - 59.171 Percentage) - Damage reduced by shield
Damage: 77.819 (Reduction: 109.712 - 58.504 Percentage) - Damage reduced by shield
Damage: 79.070 (Reduction: 108.461 - 57.836 Percentage) - Damage reduced by shield
Damage: 80.321 (Reduction: 107.210 - 57.169 Percentage) - Damage reduced by shield
Damage: 81.572 (Reduction: 105.959 - 56.502 Percentage) - Damage reduced by shield
Damage: 82.823 (Reduction: 104.708 - 55.835 Percentage) - Damage reduced by shield
Damage: 84.074 (Reduction: 103.457 - 55.168 Percentage) - Damage reduced by shield
Damage: 85.325 (Reduction: 102.206 - 54.501 Percentage) - Damage reduced by shield

DEFLECTION: 170 PPU 95 FOC 60 PPW

Damage: 71.826 (Reduction: 115.705 - 61.699 Percentage) - Damage reduced by shield
Damage: 73.077 (Reduction: 114.454 - 61.032 Percentage) - Damage reduced by shield
Damage: 74.328 (Reduction: 113.203 - 60.365 Percentage) - Damage reduced by shield
Damage: 75.580 (Reduction: 111.952 - 59.698 Percentage) - Damage reduced by shield
Damage: 76.831 (Reduction: 110.700 - 59.030 Percentage) - Damage reduced by shield
Damage: 78.082 (Reduction: 109.449 - 58.363 Percentage) - Damage reduced by shield
Damage: 79.333 (Reduction: 108.198 - 57.696 Percentage) - Damage reduced by shield
Damage: 80.584 (Reduction: 106.947 - 57.029 Percentage) - Damage reduced by shield
Damage: 81.835 (Reduction: 105.696 - 56.362 Percentage) - Damage reduced by shield
Damage: 83.086 (Reduction: 104.445 - 55.695 Percentage) - Damage reduced by shield
Damage: 84.337 (Reduction: 103.194 - 55.028 Percentage) - Damage reduced by shield
Damage: 85.588 (Reduction: 101.943 - 54.360 Percentage) - Damage reduced by shield
Damage: 86.839 (Reduction: 100.692 - 53.693 Percentage) - Damage reduced by shield

DEFLECTION: 170 PPU 115 FOC 50 PPW

Damage: 67.229 (Reduction: 120.302 - 64.151 Percentage) - Damage reduced by shield
Damage: 68.480 (Reduction: 119.051 - 63.483 Percentage) - Damage reduced by shield
Damage: 69.731 (Reduction: 117.800 - 62.816 Percentage) - Damage reduced by shield
Damage: 70.982 (Reduction: 116.549 - 62.149 Percentage) - Damage reduced by shield
Damage: 72.233 (Reduction: 115.298 - 61.482 Percentage) - Damage reduced by shield
Damage: 73.484 (Reduction: 114.047 - 60.815 Percentage) - Damage reduced by shield
Damage: 74.735 (Reduction: 112.796 - 60.148 Percentage) - Damage reduced by shield
Damage: 75.986 (Reduction: 111.545 - 59.481 Percentage) - Damage reduced by shield
Damage: 77.238 (Reduction: 110.294 - 58.813 Percentage) - Damage reduced by shield
Damage: 78.489 (Reduction: 109.043 - 58.146 Percentage) - Damage reduced by shield
Damage: 79.740 (Reduction: 107.791 - 57.479 Percentage) - Damage reduced by shield
Damage: 80.991 (Reduction: 106.540 - 56.812 Percentage) - Damage reduced by shield
Damage: 82.242 (Reduction: 105.289 - 56.145 Percentage) - Damage reduced by shield
Damage: 83.493 (Reduction: 104.038 - 55.478 Percentage) - Damage reduced by shield
Damage: 84.744 (Reduction: 102.787 - 54.811 Percentage) - Damage reduced by shield

DEFLECTION: 170 PPU 115 FOC 40 PPW

Damage: 68.480 (Reduction: 119.051 - 63.483 Percentage) - Damage reduced by shield
Damage: 69.731 (Reduction: 117.800 - 62.816 Percentage) - Damage reduced by shield
Damage: 70.982 (Reduction: 116.549 - 62.149 Percentage) - Damage reduced by shield
Damage: 72.233 (Reduction: 115.298 - 61.482 Percentage) - Damage reduced by shield
Damage: 73.484 (Reduction: 114.047 - 60.815 Percentage) - Damage reduced by shield
Damage: 74.735 (Reduction: 112.796 - 60.148 Percentage) - Damage reduced by shield
Damage: 75.986 (Reduction: 111.545 - 59.481 Percentage) - Damage reduced by shield
Damage: 77.238 (Reduction: 110.294 - 58.813 Percentage) - Damage reduced by shield
Damage: 78.489 (Reduction: 109.043 - 58.146 Percentage) - Damage reduced by shield
Damage: 79.740 (Reduction: 107.791 - 57.479 Percentage) - Damage reduced by shield
Damage: 80.991 (Reduction: 106.540 - 56.812 Percentage) - Damage reduced by shield
Damage: 82.242 (Reduction: 105.289 - 56.145 Percentage) - Damage reduced by shield
Damage: 83.493 (Reduction: 104.038 - 55.478 Percentage) - Damage reduced by shield

Dasore
14-05-14, 13:50
PROTECTION: 170 PPU 115 FOC 60 PPW

Damage: 134.491 (Reduction: 277.974 - 67.393 Percentage) - Damage reduced by shield
Damage: 140.541 (Reduction: 271.924 - 65.927 Percentage) - Damage reduced by shield
Damage: 146.592 (Reduction: 265.873 - 64.460 Percentage) - Damage reduced by shield
Damage: 152.642 (Reduction: 259.823 - 62.993 Percentage) - Damage reduced by shield
Damage: 158.692 (Reduction: 253.772 - 61.526 Percentage) - Damage reduced by shield

PROTECTION: 160 PPU 115 FOC 60 PPW

Damage: 142.137 (Reduction: 266.075 - 65.181 Percentage) - Damage reduced by shield
Damage: 151.274 (Reduction: 265.443 - 63.699 Percentage) - Damage reduced by shield
Damage: 155.781 (Reduction: 256.684 - 62.232 Percentage) - Damage reduced by shield
Damage: 158.373 (Reduction: 245.588 - 60.795 Percentage) - Damage reduced by shield

PROTECTION: 150 PPU 115 FOC 60 PPW

Damage: 155.075 (Reduction: 261.642 - 62.786 Percentage) - Damage reduced by shield
Damage: 149.323 (Reduction: 237.628 - 61.410 Percentage) - Damage reduced by shield
Damage: 109.376 (Reduction: 167.018 - 60.427 Percentage) - Damage reduced by shield
Damage: 112.093 (Reduction: 164.301 - 59.444 Percentage) - Damage reduced by shield
Damage: 167.786 (Reduction: 231.922 - 58.023 Percentage) - Damage reduced by shield

PROTECTION: 170 PPU 105 FOC 60 PPW

Damage: 126.739 (Reduction: 247.456 - 66.130 Percentage) - Damage reduced by shield
Damage: 131.719 (Reduction: 242.476 - 64.799 Percentage) - Damage reduced by shield
Damage: 136.699 (Reduction: 237.496 - 63.469 Percentage) - Damage reduced by shield
Damage: 141.678 (Reduction: 232.516 - 62.138 Percentage) - Damage reduced by shield
Damage: 146.658 (Reduction: 227.537 - 60.807 Percentage) - Damage reduced by shield
Damage: 151.638 (Reduction: 222.557 - 59.476 Percentage) - Damage reduced by shield
Damage: 156.618 (Reduction: 217.577 - 58.145 Percentage) - Damage reduced by shield
Damage: 161.597 (Reduction: 212.598 - 56.815 Percentage) - Damage reduced by shield

PROTECTION: 170 PPU 95 FOC 60 PPW

Damage: 126.818 (Reduction: 234.620 - 64.913 Percentage) - Damage reduced by shield
Damage: 131.464 (Reduction: 229.974 - 63.628 Percentage) - Damage reduced by shield
Damage: 131.148 (Reduction: 217.534 - 62.388 Percentage) - Damage reduced by shield
Damage: 140.592 (Reduction: 220.846 - 61.102 Percentage) - Damage reduced by shield

PROTECTION: 170 PPU 115 FOC 50 PPW

Damage: 110.428 (Reduction: 229.749 - 67.538 Percentage) - Damage reduced by shield
Damage: 117.513 (Reduction: 231.169 - 66.298 Percentage) - Damage reduced by shield
Damage: 121.836 (Reduction: 226.845 - 65.058 Percentage) - Damage reduced by shield
Damage: 126.160 (Reduction: 222.521 - 63.818 Percentage) - Damage reduced by shield
Damage: 130.484 (Reduction: 218.198 - 62.578 Percentage) - Damage reduced by shield

PROTECTION: 170 PPU 115 FOC 40 PPW

Damage: 89.096 (Reduction: 187.298 - 67.765 Percentage) - Damage reduced by shield
Damage: 119.676 (Reduction: 237.510 - 66.495 Percentage) - Damage reduced by shield
Damage: 124.214 (Reduction: 232.972 - 65.224 Percentage) - Damage reduced by shield
Damage: 128.751 (Reduction: 228.435 - 63.954 Percentage) - Damage reduced by shield
Damage: 133.288 (Reduction: 223.898 - 62.684 Percentage) - Damage reduced by shield
Damage: 137.826 (Reduction: 219.360 - 61.413 Percentage) - Damage reduced by shield

Dasore
14-05-14, 13:52
ABSORPTION: 170 PPU 115 FOC 60 PPW

Damage: 67.588 (Reduction: 10.904 - 13.892 Percentage) - Damage reduced by shield
Damage: 67.862 (Reduction: 10.630 - 13.543 Percentage) - Damage reduced by shield
Damage: 68.136 (Reduction: 10.356 - 13.194 Percentage) - Damage reduced by shield
Damage: 68.410 (Reduction: 10.082 - 12.845 Percentage) - Damage reduced by shield
Damage: 68.684 (Reduction: 9.808 - 12.496 Percentage) - Damage reduced by shield
Damage: 68.958 (Reduction: 9.534 - 12.147 Percentage) - Damage reduced by shield
Damage: 69.232 (Reduction: 9.260 - 11.798 Percentage) - Damage reduced by shield
Damage: 69.506 (Reduction: 8.986 - 11.448 Percentage) - Damage reduced by shield

ABSORPTION: 160 PPU 115 FOC 60 PPW

Damage: 67.965 (Reduction: 10.527 - 13.411 Percentage) - Damage reduced by shield
Damage: 68.239 (Reduction: 10.253 - 13.062 Percentage) - Damage reduced by shield
Damage: 68.513 (Reduction: 9.979 - 12.713 Percentage) - Damage reduced by shield
Damage: 68.787 (Reduction: 9.705 - 12.364 Percentage) - Damage reduced by shield
Damage: 69.061 (Reduction: 9.431 - 12.015 Percentage) - Damage reduced by shield
Damage: 69.335 (Reduction: 9.157 - 11.666 Percentage) - Damage reduced by shield
Damage: 69.609 (Reduction: 8.883 - 11.317 Percentage) - Damage reduced by shield
Damage: 69.883 (Reduction: 8.609 - 10.968 Percentage) - Damage reduced by shield

ABSORPTION: 150 PPU 115 FOC 60 PPW

Damage: 68.368 (Reduction: 10.125 - 12.899 Percentage) - Damage reduced by shield
Damage: 68.642 (Reduction: 9.851 - 12.550 Percentage) - Damage reduced by shield
Damage: 68.916 (Reduction: 9.577 - 12.201 Percentage) - Damage reduced by shield
Damage: 69.190 (Reduction: 9.303 - 11.852 Percentage) - Damage reduced by shield
Damage: 69.464 (Reduction: 9.029 - 11.503 Percentage) - Damage reduced by shield
Damage: 69.737 (Reduction: 8.755 - 11.154 Percentage) - Damage reduced by shield
Damage: 70.011 (Reduction: 8.481 - 10.805 Percentage) - Damage reduced by shield
Damage: 70.285 (Reduction: 8.207 - 10.455 Percentage) - Damage reduced by shield

ABSORPTION: 170 PPU 105 FOC 60 PPW

Damage: 67.865 (Reduction: 10.627 - 13.539 Percentage) - Damage reduced by shield
Damage: 68.139 (Reduction: 10.353 - 13.190 Percentage) - Damage reduced by shield
Damage: 68.413 (Reduction: 10.079 - 12.841 Percentage) - Damage reduced by shield
Damage: 68.687 (Reduction: 9.805 - 12.492 Percentage) - Damage reduced by shield
Damage: 68.961 (Reduction: 9.531 - 12.143 Percentage) - Damage reduced by shield
Damage: 69.235 (Reduction: 9.257 - 11.794 Percentage) - Damage reduced by shield
Damage: 69.509 (Reduction: 8.983 - 11.445 Percentage) - Damage reduced by shield
Damage: 69.783 (Reduction: 8.710 - 11.096 Percentage) - Damage reduced by shield

ABSORPTION: 170 PPU 95 FOC 60 PPW

Damage: 68.001 (Reduction: 10.491 - 13.366 Percentage) - Damage reduced by shield
Damage: 68.275 (Reduction: 10.217 - 13.017 Percentage) - Damage reduced by shield
Damage: 68.549 (Reduction: 9.943 - 12.668 Percentage) - Damage reduced by shield
Damage: 68.823 (Reduction: 9.669 - 12.319 Percentage) - Damage reduced by shield
Damage: 69.097 (Reduction: 9.395 - 11.970 Percentage) - Damage reduced by shield
Damage: 69.371 (Reduction: 9.121 - 11.621 Percentage) - Damage reduced by shield
Damage: 69.645 (Reduction: 8.847 - 11.271 Percentage) - Damage reduced by shield
Damage: 69.919 (Reduction: 8.573 - 10.922 Percentage) - Damage reduced by shield

ABSORPTION: 170 PPU 115 FOC 50 PPW

Damage: 67.609 (Reduction: 10.883 - 13.865 Percentage) - Damage reduced by shield
Damage: 67.883 (Reduction: 10.609 - 13.516 Percentage) - Damage reduced by shield
Damage: 68.157 (Reduction: 10.335 - 13.167 Percentage) - Damage reduced by shield
Damage: 68.431 (Reduction: 10.061 - 12.818 Percentage) - Damage reduced by shield
Damage: 68.705 (Reduction: 9.787 - 12.469 Percentage) - Damage reduced by shield
Damage: 68.979 (Reduction: 9.513 - 12.120 Percentage) - Damage reduced by shield
Damage: 69.253 (Reduction: 9.239 - 11.770 Percentage) - Damage reduced by shield
Damage: 69.527 (Reduction: 8.965 - 11.421 Percentage) - Damage reduced by shield

ABSORPTION: 170 PPU 115 FOC 40 PPW

Damage: 67.609 (Reduction: 10.883 - 13.865 Percentage) - Damage reduced by shield
Damage: 67.883 (Reduction: 10.609 - 13.516 Percentage) - Damage reduced by shield
Damage: 68.157 (Reduction: 10.335 - 13.167 Percentage) - Damage reduced by shield
Damage: 68.431 (Reduction: 10.061 - 12.818 Percentage) - Damage reduced by shield
Damage: 68.705 (Reduction: 9.787 - 12.469 Percentage) - Damage reduced by shield
Damage: 68.979 (Reduction: 9.513 - 12.120 Percentage) - Damage reduced by shield
Damage: 69.253 (Reduction: 9.239 - 11.770 Percentage) - Damage reduced by shield
Damage: 69.527 (Reduction: 8.965 - 11.421 Percentage) - Damage reduced by shield
Damage: 69.801 (Reduction: 8.691 - 11.072 Percentage) - Damage reduced by shield
Damage: 70.075 (Reduction: 8.417 - 10.723 Percentage) - Damage reduced by shield

Bragi
14-05-14, 19:45
So here are my first test results, that what u guys wanted?

Indeed. Though are those all subsequent hits or the first five, thenth, etc.?


A (maybe stupid) question: Whats wrong with the current balance/why do you want to change it?

I'm not happy about that the frequency doesnt depend on the skill anymore. For example my barter has 0 WEP and something more than 90 R-C. He can uses the Terminator, its good enough for doing epic missions. But why such underskilled char should shoot with the same speed like a full caped rifle spy?
Weapon damage is still affected by WEP. So your 0WEP barterer will do less damage than the combat char.
How much the sub-skills affect damage is something we are going to look at once the current patches and testing shows that the game is performing as we tell it to.


The other thing is, you are going to make it harder for new players. Imagin a player who use a 'bad' weapon bought from an NPC. He will be punished twice. Less damage as before and longer time for grow up in a game full of caped and WoCed runners.
This is more a content issue; Bad items are not really meant for use, but as a means to obtain a blueprint. We're currently focusing on end-game PvP at the moment. PvE and content will be addressed later or in parallel (but still later).


This was an awesome post. Why would you tuck it away on page 18?

Because contrary to popular belief, regular NST members have no special forum powers. I can't edit anything other than my own posts.
Also, if you see me ingame, don't ask me to spawn anything. Only Senior Games Masters can do that and I wouldn't if I could.

Trivaldi
14-05-14, 21:56
Attachments should be working for you guys now. I've also enabled support for xls(x) extensions if you have any testing spreadsheets on the go. :) Please be aware legacy attachments (even if they are present in the attachment window) may not still exist. Old attachment items were lost from the forum some time ago sadly.

Let me know if you have any issues.

Dasore
14-05-14, 23:52
fully healed, no heal running, lomed the skills, casted shild, and then the hits till nearly dead... sometimes one shot too much ;)

Sevendust
15-05-14, 08:11
Just tone down the disruptor dmg & poison stack dmg of the dev. That should be priority #1 of this balance. 2 of the only 4 major clans quit a while back b/c of these weapons being overused & they decided they were just gunna wait till the balance patch. Step #2: Make damageboost actually useful in pvp for PEs who want to use lower TL weapons, & then of course make sure the rifle weapon's dmg is in line with the pistols. (ding: PEs fixed) Step #3: Change the aiming of APU spells back to how it used to be; still with the reticle, but where it would fizzle-cast if you missed, and then increase the dmg of all DIRECT dmg spells by ~25%. (You cant keep APU spells the same as other equal TL weapons with this new DPM curve, since APUs are the weakest class and supposed to hit the hardest.) Step #4: DPM equal for all other weapons. Step #5: Make the Jones TL 10 heal be a little less than right in between the heal strength of the TL3 & a blessed heal (~10 / Remember how ppl said the TL10 heal was too strong back in nc 2.1 cuz it healed for about 11 per tick? We had 350-420 total hlt back then. NOW we have 800-1000.) & thats honestly all that needs to happen.

PS: Sorry, but I have too many things going on to do more thorough testing.

Dasore
15-05-14, 09:32
Just tone down the disruptor dmg & poison stack dmg of the dev. That should be priority #1 of this balance. 2 of the only 4 major clans quit a while back b/c of these weapons being overused & they decided they were just gunna wait till the balance patch. Step #2: Make damageboost actually useful in pvp for PEs who want to use lower TL weapons, & then of course make sure the rifle weapon's dmg is in line with the pistols. (ding: PEs fixed) Step #3: Change the aiming of APU spells back to how it used to be; still with the reticle, but where it would fizzle-cast if you missed, and then increase the dmg of all DIRECT dmg spells by ~25%. (You cant keep APU spells the same as other equal TL weapons with this new DPM curve, since APUs are the weakest class and supposed to hit the hardest.) Step #4: DPM equal for all other weapons. Step #5: Make the Jones TL 10 heal be a little less than right in between the heal strength of the TL3 & a blessed heal (~10 / Remember how ppl said the TL10 heal was too strong back in nc 2.1 cuz it healed for about 11 per tick? We had 350-420 total hlt back then. NOW we have 800-1000.) & thats honestly all that needs to happen.

PS: Sorry, but I have too many things going on to do more thorough testing.

exatly the info they asked the com to gather :)

Dasore
15-05-14, 11:19
Dasore's Testing Corner:

All weapons of the traders in neocronstruct, unmodded

Rifle Spy: 97 Int, 115 Dex
Pistol Spy: 97 Int, 115 Dex

Working on hightech pistols atm

Its always: Skills (Dmg of the ammo in the weaponinfo//frequenz per min) dmg per hit
Pic for the Range (Fusion and Rayguns)

Trivaldi
15-05-14, 11:44
Pic for the Range (Fusion and Rayguns)
Was that the resolution you uploaded that in?

Dasore
15-05-14, 11:59
1120x700 i think

Trivaldi
15-05-14, 15:01
Couple of stray settings. Screenshots will now upload at a more sensible (the original) size unless they're over 500kb (1mb for .bmp). Sorry about that. :)

Dasore
17-05-14, 12:07
Questions:

- I dont find the Str 91 E24.81 Electric Tempest in the neocronstruct. it should be diamond hacknet. Blind or not there?
- Is http://www.techhaven.org/resources/weapon-guides/2.2-weapon-skill-influence-guide.html still up to date on testserver?
- You want frequenz and dmg tested, on melee dmg is mc, wep and ath, but frequ also gets influenced by endurance, at least th.org says so. thats right?
- Should Aoe also be tested? Hc and Apu?
- I tested all weapons unmodded so far, should devourer for example be tested with ammo mods also?
- What exatly do you need out of the log for dot weapons?

Alduin
17-05-14, 15:50
First of all: thanks for all the testing! It turns out that a typo has been introduced in the calculation of the shots per minute in the details section of the weapon info window. That will be fixed soon(TM). Using the correct frequency values and the collected data by the community, the dpm curve seems to resemble what we put it, which is very good :)

AoE is a bit trickier, since there is a lot going on in the code which affects the dpm output. With the next balancing patch we do some "crowbar" balancing to AoE where we neglect the different behaviour of the different AoE weapons and will instead lower the dpm output of all AoE weapons to a certain degree to compensate for the fact that they hit multiple targets compared to other weapons.

Testing a hand full of weapons also with different mods would already suffice to see whether the changes we made to the ammo mods are working as intended. The damage mods should only alter the composition of the damage not the dpm of a weapon.

For dot weapons: the damage value per tick would be great.

As far as I can tell by a quick look at it: that guide is still up to date (at least concerning the state of Titan). The frequency of weapons should not be influenced anymore by the player's skills so verifying that for MC weapons also would be <3. From the data delivered so far we can at least tell that this holds for all other weapons tested so far :)

Dasore
18-05-14, 00:26
ETA on the next patch?

Alduin
18-05-14, 15:29
ETA? Since the next patch shall become the first balancing release candidate, at least one or two more days so we can investigate the problem with the damageboost. The next patch will need heavy feedback from all runners, PvE, as well as PvP-wise, so spread the word! We want to make sure that nothing (also leveling, raising new chars, ...) breaks and this can be released to Titan as soon as possible! The aim for this patch is not to be perfect, but to improve the situation on Titan! Once that goal is achieved we will iterate far more often on the balancing side of things, we have shown in the past that we are prepared to work all night long to get fixes out and the balancing patch will not put an end to this!

MayhemMichael
18-05-14, 16:59
I'll do heavy testing next week.

Dasore
18-05-14, 17:20
12333

jj dynomite
18-05-14, 18:46
The next patch will need heavy feedback from all runners, PvE, as well as PvP-wise, so spread the word!

PVE? I've had issue that you guys aren't focusing on PVE with all of this work, although I do understand that you must focus on one thing at a time. I cannot find any PVE changes you have implemented (Outside of the mobs that carry weapons and the DOT damage issues). Is there a PVE change that has happened that we don't know about?

Alduin
18-05-14, 19:51
PVE? I've had issue that you guys aren't focusing on PVE with all of this work, although I do understand that you must focus on one thing at a time. I cannot find any PVE changes you have implemented (Outside of the mobs that carry weapons and the DOT damage issues). Is there a PVE change that has happened that we don't know about?

We changed the dpm output of each and every weapon, so first of all you will do a different amount of damage against mobs and second mobs will do a different amount of damage against you. If the intended changes break PvE then they cannot be applied to Titan, because it would break a huge part of the game and the possibility for newbies to level new characters. So even though we focus on PvP, we have to make sure that we dont break other stuff, like e.g. leveling new characters, in the process of getting the PvP balance right.

jj dynomite
18-05-14, 21:30
We changed the dpm output of each and every weapon, so first of all you will do a different amount of damage against mobs and second mobs will do a different amount of damage against you. If the intended changes break PvE then they cannot be applied to Titan, because it would break a huge part of the game and the possibility for newbies to level new characters. So even though we focus on PvP, we have to make sure that we dont break other stuff, like e.g. leveling new characters, in the process of getting the PvP balance right.

When you say "every weapon", do you mean all types of damage the environment/a Mob can do to a player?

Alduin
20-05-14, 14:24
When you say "every weapon", do you mean all types of damage the environment/a Mob can do to a player?

Yes

R#186 - T#192 - Release Candidate One has been released! Please have a look at the patch notes thread (http://forum.neocron-game.com/showthread.php?155324-R-186-T-186-T-192-Patch-Notes&p=2225873#post2225873) for details. The section on how/what to test has also been updated. In summary: we need to confirm, that the applied changes (the dpm curve) still work as intendend. In addition we need to test PvP and PvE and see whether both is in good shape.

Dasore
20-05-14, 17:38
AOE DMG TEST
Tank: 115 Str, 25 Int

I just started doing some tests with Aoe, the Grenade Launcher do 2x dmg, and thats not the case on titan. also the dmg of each kind of aoe looks like its the same or even lower on higher tls. best example str 87 fusion 31dmg at 55 frequ, and malediction 31dmg at 45 frequ. but take look at the .txt, i stopped testing after i saw that ;)


SINGLETARGET DMG TESTS:

Rifle Spy: 97 Int, 115 Dex
Pistol Spy: 97 Int, 115 Dex


Its always: Skills (Dmg of the ammo in the weaponinfo//frequenz per min) dmg per hit

Dasore
20-05-14, 19:41
PE SELFCAST SPELLS

Same Setups on Titan and Vedenna, on the Pe and also on the dmg dealer. Used weapons, slasher, fire apoc and bhg

Dasore
20-05-14, 21:15
PPU SELFCAST SPELLS

Same Setups on Titan and Vedenna, on the PPU and also on the dmg dealers. Used weapons, slasher, fire apoc and bhg

Dasore
20-05-14, 21:47
PPU FOREIGN CASTED SPELLS

Same Setups on Titan and Vedenna, on the PPU/PE and also on the dmg dealers. Used weapons, slasher, fire apoc and bhg

Dasore
20-05-14, 22:53
PVE Testing:
Caving: U ll get overrun by mobs cause aoe doesnt do enough dmg... 40 with doombeamer
Warbots/Firemobs: Tried them on redeemer spy, the dmg i do to them is around 1/4 of the retail.

New Player: Soldier, Granadelauncher does 1 dmg on the mobs... but spiders still die to one or 2 shots in the sewer, same as on Titan, but dont try to hunt Aggressors... 1 dmg per hit, but it seems they take more dmg cause the lifebars go down around half as fast as on titan

Dasore
21-05-14, 16:34
Protection tool

walkman
21-05-14, 18:22
Yes

R#186 - T#192 - Release Candidate One has been released! Please have a look at the patch notes thread (http://forum.neocron-game.com/showthread.php?155324-R-186-T-186-T-192-Patch-Notes&p=2225873#post2225873) for details. The section on how/what to test has also been updated. In summary: we need to confirm, that the applied changes (the dpm curve) still work as intendend. In addition we need to test PvP and PvE and see whether both is in good shape.

Can you explain for who and for what both aiming speed and burst corrections was implemented? And how they are working?

---

#192 my feelings. Class: Pistol/PE

PvE:

While weapon's damage was decreased mobs still have a lot of health. For instance, to kill Doomreaper I had used 2.5 pack of xbow xray ammo. I dont want to tell you what damage deals weapon with lower TL and how many ammo I used.

In same time this Doomreaper causes huge damage:

Local Player:Damage() - Damage processing statistics!
Damage: 107.347 Target Force HitZone 1 - Part 0
Damage: 74.760 (Reduction: 32.588 - 30.357 Percentage) - Damage reduced by player armor
Damage: 42.899 (Reduction: 64.448 - 60.037 Percentage) - Damage reduced by player skills
Results of this target: Damage 42.899 (Reduction: 64.448 - 60.037 Percentage) - ResistanceCap: 0.840!

Damage: 107.347 Target Fire HitZone 1 - Part 1
Damage: 98.882 (Reduction: 8.465 - 7.886 Percentage) - Damage reduced by shield
Damage: 69.673 (Reduction: 37.674 - 35.095 Percentage) - Damage reduced by player armor
Damage: 56.486 (Reduction: 50.862 - 47.381 Percentage) - Damage reduced by player skills
Results of this target: Damage 56.486 (Reduction: 50.862 - 47.381 Percentage) - ResistanceCap: 0.840!

I think you should decrease amount of health of mobs or increase damage of weapons. Because PvE is very very long now. Any mob with high rank looks like a boss.

---

PvP:

As I see we still easy killing each other. I feel that damage numbers is incorrect in info of weapons or resistance works now differently. I hope other players tell more information about that.


P.S. Falling down on the ground still very very dangerous and this is produces insta-kill.

Thanks.

Alduin
22-05-14, 11:08
Can you explain for who and for what both aiming speed and burst corrections was implemented? And how they are working?


How the corrections are working is in detail explained in the patchnotes, they are intended to compansate for the penalty a player has due to the reticule of a weapon closing slower than of other weapons, because the weapon's handling is harder. The burst correction is intended to compensate for the penalty caused by neocrons aim mechanic (lock on and shot a whole burst into the direction of your target).

I will have another look at the fall damage soon(TM), it will be adjusted again with T#194.

R#186 - T#193 - Release Candidate Two has been released! Please have a look at the patch notes thread (http://forum.neocron-game.com/showthread.php?155324-R-186-T-186-T-192-Patch-Notes&p=2225873#post2225873) for details. The section on how/what to test has also been updated again. The focus of testing is now on PvP and PvE to see whether both are in good shape. In addition we need people to have another look at nanites.

BlueRobot
22-05-14, 14:56
Disruptor burst lowered to 3 instead of 4 shots

Can you explain ?

Dasore
22-05-14, 15:17
Can you explain ?

Instead of shooting 4 times everytime you klick, it shoots 3 "bullets" now, like all the nonerare pulslasers do.

walkman
22-05-14, 21:15
T#193 issues:

* Desert Wolves, Enlightment Preachers, Aggressors and some other low rank mobs have best armor. Double damage on mobs works but not everywhere.

* Judge has lower DPS/DPM then TL 92 Pulselaser, TL 86 Blacksun RP-97 pistols. Correction: this is good that non-rares deals acceptable damage, due the fact of limit on stats up to 99%. But Judge's burst has 2 shots vs 3 shots on TL 92 Pulselaser. And in numbers: 100-110 per bullet on Judge vs 150 per bullet or 220-240 total on Judge vs 450+ on Pulselaser. These numbers got on mobs, ofc. In comparison with xbow which deals around 300-350 per shot, so I assume Judge would deal around 130-150 per bullet, because it misses as hell, as you know.

* TL 70 Cleansing Flamethrower deals much much more damage then TL 96 WoC Backup Gun. Especially, flamer's stacks deals around 30+ damage vs 8-10 on WoC pistol... 2-3 x tl 70 flamer's stacks eats on my PE (39 fire own resi + 87 on armor) 150+ health in 5 seconds. This is an ultimate weapon on HC PE now.

* Anti-energy, anti-fire, anti-xray and possible anti-poison tl 24-30 spells heals 300+ per tick.

Remark: casting time of these spells on PE (and who else will use them?) too much (5-7 seconds). While you casting spell the stack from flamer above kills you. May be these spells should have lower casting time? Till then with such damage from ticks spells looks useless.

There are another problem: on belt you can put up to 10 items, as you know. So, I can use anti-fire/poison drugs or cast spell. To use drug I must open inventory (because I cant always keep 8+ drugs on belt as tanks does) and dont move, in same time casting may fall, lasts 5+ seconds and you cant do anything (atack/use stealth). I'll be glad to see these spells with casting time in 3 or 4 max seconds. Till then they cant save you. Ticks/stacks works now perfectly, thanks for that :)

* Decreasing range on all pistols seems to be bad idea. Every cannon, riffle have much better aiming / less misses in close combat, while pistols already close range weapons by design and still they have worst aiming. Simple test: 100 WEP and 100 H-C/R-C/P-C show you everything. IMO, let's other says their word about that.

* One more note about stacks. In PvE mobs like Hoppers and Big Scorpions deals a lot of damages. May be its ok for firemobs, but big scorpion has 34/34 (if I am correct) rank. Anyway, stacks from poison/fire deals really good damage. And I was feared to go into Grave without PPU, because I know that one stack from 90/90 snakes will kill me in a second. Possible later to decrease their damage?

BlueRobot
22-05-14, 21:58
Instead of shooting 4 times everytime you klick, it shoots 3 "bullets" now, like all the nonerare pulslasers do.

I meant the reason for that change. If every weapon is automatically balanced by its TL then the change should have no effect at all or horribly break the dissi.

Dasore
22-05-14, 22:29
I meant the reason for that change. If every weapon is automatically balanced by its TL then the change should have no effect at all or horribly break the dissi.

before i explain it wrong... let alduin do his job ;)

Dropout
23-05-14, 00:02
I meant the reason for that change. If every weapon is automatically balanced by its TL then the change should have no effect at all or horribly break the dissi.
To "mainstream" Dissy to its non-rare counterpart.
This was a change wanted by the community (and IMO a great change).

slith
23-05-14, 14:01
* TL 70 Cleansing Flamethrower deals much much more damage then TL 96 WoC Backup Gun. Especially, flamer's stacks deals around 30+ damage vs 8-10 on WoC pistol... 2-3 x tl 70 flamer's stacks eats on my PE (39 fire own resi + 87 on armor) 150+ health in 5 seconds. This is an ultimate weapon on HC PE now.Yup, maybe a tad to much. Then again its even harder to use than devo..


* Anti-energy, anti-fire, anti-xray and possible anti-poison tl 24-30 spells heals 300+ per tick. Leave me my toy! :D (Alduin told me its fixed already)

I dont really mind my invincible, reviving HC pe with TL70 Imbaflamer.. fun times. The only thing it cant outheal is a Devourer that hits every shot :D

walkman
23-05-14, 16:22
Then again its even harder to use than devo..
Dont tell me this, because its just works. You think you are able escape with broken legs? You think that tank is very-very slow? Just keep short distance and shoot in back of enemy. Very hard to use, yes. This is why it deals 30+ dmg per tick. While time cast of spell around 7 seconds vs 8 seconds on stack. This is equals to 7 seconds x 30 dmg per tick = 210 dmg and 30 dmg will be removed (on success) via spell. OR you may stop/open inventory and use antifire drug in that time you will get 2+ another stacks. OR dont use spells shields, dont use stealth, dont use paratemol/desterol/etc really usefull drugs and keep only 9 antifire/antipoison drugs on belt.

I will be glad to hear how many deals arti-dev on stacks. 50 dmg per tick? Or 100? And why TL 96 pistol deals only 8 dmg?

Tino
23-05-14, 17:33
I was the first person on this thread to say dissy should be changed to 3 burst...Your Welcome

Alduin
24-05-14, 16:46
The reason for the Disruptor change was to bring it in line with all the other puleslaser rifles and to force players to have to aim more often when using the disruptor.

R#186 - T#194 - Release Candidate Three has been released! Please have a look at the patch notes thread (http://forum.neocron-game.com/showthread.php?155324-R-186-T-186-T-192-Patch-Notes&p=2225873#post2225873). The APU finally received some additional love, although I have to admit that I accidentaly forgot to move one of the spells, but the next and hopefully final iteration will include it. Something which still needs a look are drones, as well as low frequency weapons like the ionic shotguns or the silent hunter.

In my opinion the damage over time of a flamethrower should be the largest because it burns you which really hurts and hurts a larger area of your body.

So the cast times of the antidote spells is too long, right?

We are getting closer so keep it up guys!

Ascension
24-05-14, 23:39
The reason for the Disruptor change was to bring it in line with all the other puleslaser rifles and to force players to have to aim more often when using the disruptor.

R#186 - T#194 - Release Candidate Three has been released! Please have a look at the patch notes thread (http://forum.neocron-game.com/showthread.php?155324-R-186-T-186-T-192-Patch-Notes&p=2225873#post2225873). The APU finally received some additional love, although I have to admit that I accidentaly forgot to move one of the spells, but the next and hopefully final iteration will include it. Something which still needs a look are drones, as well as low frequency weapons like the ionic shotguns or the silent hunter.

In my opinion the damage over time of a flamethrower should be the largest because it burns you which really hurts and hurts a larger area of your body.

So the cast times of the antidote spells is too long, right?

We are getting closer so keep it up guys!

I've just logged onto verdeena and APU spells are still 32 freq, arguably APU spells should dot, I logged my APU and fired at the target range using apoc, and then switched to my tank with the devourer, why would apoc not dot and and the dev do? also the anti spells don't seem to have switched over, only 1 has, the rest still require PPU

Dasore
25-05-14, 09:42
Why is the nanite injector healing equal to a psi heal at that techlevel? shouldnt it be much lower heal/min cause of:

1. you can use both nanite tools at onces, tl 14 and tl 40.
2. highest heal pe/spys can use is the tl 10 anyway, so already lower than the tl 14 tool.
3. no casttime
4. you dont need a glove and psi points to use the tools, so you can spec psi resist and use a dex glove for higher weapons.

in my optionion it should be tl 14 tool < tl 3 heal < tl 40 tool < tl 10 heal
i havent test it, i just read it in the notes and wanted to write it down to test later when i m back ;)

tarasm
25-05-14, 10:36
the heal tools stack on your screen, show the healing in the damage log but still heal the same amount as a normal tl40 heal tool solo. test it out

walkman
25-05-14, 15:03
In my opinion the damage over time of a flamethrower should be the largest because it burns you which really hurts and hurts a larger area of your body.

In my opinion the WoC pistol must be acceptable. You got that pistol after completing the one of hardest/longest quests in the game. Even in PvE this pistol shows worst DPS/DPM. Any non-rare pistol deals much more damage then it. What is point to complete the quest? To get ultimate rifles, right! Remove this pistol entire of game. The pistol shames balance team work.

Think about against what or who pistol was created. Against tank? LOL. Against spy? LOL. Against APU? LOL. PPU? Double LOL. For PvE? Triple LOL. Even on mobs if you have no misses and release full pack then total ticks deals max 100 dmg. Funny. TL 70 flamer on mob in shooting range deals own 296 dmg + 30 dmg per tick of one stack. Pistol on same mob deals around 150 dmg and tick 8 deals dmg. TL 70 vs TL 96. Funny.

Keep in mind the fact that pistol deals only piercing damage type. And this pistol is not sub-machine gun. Yes, pistol's shot. frequency is pretty fast. And so? In PvP no one able to shoot non-stop with 100% headshots in 3 seconds. Untill target dont move, of course. Heal spells and heal tools heals you up to 16 hp per tick. So, I need to put in your head 2 bullets to disable your heal. And one more bullet to deal 8 dmg per tick. FUNNY.


So the cast times of the antidote spells is too long, right?

Try yourlself. Keep 150 hp. Get 1-2 stacks from TL 70 flamer and try to cast spell. If you survive then balance is perfect. Dont forget to run, with broken legs. Dont forget to cover somewhere. Simulate real PvP situation.

---

UPDATE

How to balance such tools?

The target. In this case these spells usefull for apu (hybrid?), PE and PPU.

Penalties versus drusg:

* PSI cost. Monks already have a lot of PSI energy. In the same time monks spend your energy on combat spells too. PEs usually does not have a lot of PSI energy, they should keep max WEP and PPU/FCS/PPW. My PE able to have 60 or maximum 70 PSI energy. So, I can use maximum 2-3 antidote spells.

* Time cost. There are two things and I said about them above.

** Cast time vs stack time. Currently, 6-7 seconds on cast vs 8 seconds on stack is NOT acceptable.

** Cast time vs drugs. The game is old. In the WoW we have multi-tabbed belt. There is no such. APU/PPU and PEs cant keep belt full of antidot drugs. Also, we need stop and drug-and-drop drugs after they used. Basically, to use drug from inventory I spend about 3 seconds. When battle is hot possible much more. Using from inventory has huge penalty: dont move. Using drug from belt penalty: hotkey's cost.

What is time for casting spell should be?

Spell's penalties:

* Hotkey
* Casting time
* PSI energy

Think yourself. Spell should help me. And does not work against me. I pay big price to use spell already. Time is not such thing that decides everything.

Dasore
25-05-14, 16:15
Think about against what or who pistol was created. Against tank? LOL. Against spy? LOL. Against APU? LOL. PPU? Double LOL. For PvE? Triple LOL. Even on mobs if you have no misses and release full pack then total ticks deals max 100 dmg. Funny. TL 70 flamer on mob in shooting range deals own 296 dmg + 30 dmg per tick of one stack. Pistol on same mob deals around 150 dmg and tick 8 deals dmg. TL 70 vs TL 96. Funny.

yeah that woc weapon is probably a bit too low... but stop the loling ;)
pistol does pretty good against everything atm, if you dont just try the woc one. i would recommend ya to switch the LOL with L2P. Ur faster with pistol than every other weapon except psi users, but they are also even more fragile and the aim closes so fast on pistols, flamer are a pain in the ass to aim, so they need higher damage. Its a question of skill when all the weapons are finally really good balanced. And dont forget its still on testserver... so no decision is made.





Try yourlself. Keep 150 hp. Get 1-2 stacks from TL 70 flamer and try to cast spell. If you survive then balance is perfect. Dont forget to run, with broken legs. Dont forget to cover somewhere. Simulate real PvP situation.
what class are we talking about? stop talking bout casttimes of crahn antispells for pe, they were never used in pvp and the only one useable/that would make sence on pe anyway is the crahn antifire... no more words bout that.



* PSI cost. Monks already have a lot of PSI energy. In the same time monks spend your energy on combat spells too. PEs usually does not have a lot of PSI energy, they should keep max WEP and PPU/FCS/PPW. My PE able to have 60 or maximum 70 PSI energy. So, I can use maximum 2-3 antidote spells.
look above ;)


* Time cost. There are two things and I said about them above.

** Cast time vs stack time. Currently, 6-7 seconds on cast vs 8 seconds on stack is NOT acceptable.
The casttime of that spells decreases at higher tls of the spell, holy one is 4 secs.


** Cast time vs drugs. The game is old. In the WoW we have multi-tabbed belt. There is no such. APU/PPU and PEs cant keep belt full of antidot drugs. Also, we need stop and drug-and-drop drugs after they used. Basically, to use drug from inventory I spend about 3 seconds. When battle is hot possible much more. Using from inventory has huge penalty: dont move. Using drug from belt penalty: hotkey's cost.
Dont want to repeat myself again, but thats what neocron is about, the skill and knowlege of the game when to use drugs or if you dont use one for that stack, when to refill the belt and what to keep in belt. As you were talking bout pe all the time, refill the belt in stealth, usually you can do 5-7 slots in that few seconds, if not? Train it and become better, i ll ask tino to make a how to refill my belt in combat vid on yt for ya ;)

Dasore
25-05-14, 16:16
the heal tools stack on your screen, show the healing in the damage log but still heal the same amount as a normal tl40 heal tool solo. test it out

Thanks for that info. Anyway, psi heals need more heal than tools that dont need anything. Like i wrote above

walkman
25-05-14, 16:28
Ur faster with pistol than every other weapon except psi users, but they are also even more fragile and the aim closes so fast on pistols, flamer are a pain in the ass to aim, so they need higher damage. Its a question of skill when all the weapons are finally really good balanced. And dont forget its still on testserver... so no decision is made.

Faster? With pistol?! Who have 100 CON and able to put in athletics 120+ points? Just be fastest, then open fire with ultimate flamer. No one able to escape with broken legs. No one able to remove 5 stacks in 1 second. What is point to create ultimate weapon for class with best speed in the game? There are no such weapon which deals a lot damage on tank. No such. Because tanks have best armor. Best resists. Able be fastest.



what class are we talking about? stop talking bout casttimes of crahn antispells for pe, they were never used in pvp and the only one useable/that would make sence on pe anyway is the crahn antifire... no more words bout that.

And now they possible be useful. Okey.jpg. Remove these spells entire the game and question will be closed.

Also, I had tested all things above with HC PE. Which able to rezz. Rezz!!!


refill the belt in stealth, usually you can do 5-7 slots in that few seconds, if not? Train it and become better, i ll ask tino to make a how to refill my belt in combat vid on yt for ya ;)

Are you kidding? Fire stack puts on you amazing visual effects! What is reason to use stealth if anyone able to see where are you? Much more. To use stealth you spend 1-2 seconds. To run away one more a few seconds. Meanwhile stack will kill you.

Dont post stupid videos from Titan, there are broken stacks. Put your videon from Vedeena :)

---

My PEs belt for duels/pair:

1. Gun
2. Stealth
3. Heal spell
4. Deflector
5. Absorber
6. Protector
7. Pistol boost OR antidote fire?!
8. Paratemol OR antidote fire?!
9. Redflash OR antidote poison?!
0. Stamina booster OR antidote poison?!

With 2 injectors situation will be much funny. This setup is NOT for OP fights, sure. So, in that case you should say DONT fight, just run away. Because PE in duels is nothing. Even with right hands. Great!

Or, dont use any spells. Dont get 7-8% resi from spells. Sure. Great balance!

Looks like there are all experts, which can only use cheats, bugs and expoit the game in all holes. What is reason to keep such wide plot of things? Remove all useless things. Let's start from removing low level spells from PE.

walkman
25-05-14, 17:38
In the end.

All games rely on how hands of player are good. In this game one class so easy in control that even with hands from an ass you will win almost always. Sad.

This is because I had leaved the game. This is pointless to play in mythical Role-Player-Game. There are only one correct role: tank. Tank with best armors. Tank with best weapons. Tank with best speed. Tank with better aiming than pistol. Dont you believe in that? Try yourself, from start to end game. Well, heavy weapons should miss a lot (or I believed in that), at least they should miss more then pistols. There is vice versa. Even in middle of game a heavy weapon misses less then any pistol. Heavy weapons deals much more damage then any pistol. Heavy weapons has better range then any pistol. Aiming speed you say? Its almost the same for all types of weapons. Especially in close range combat, i.e. 100% aim in 1-1.5 second.

What is reason to play as P-C char? Only one, the pain in you ass. If you want sado-mazo playgame then choose pistol combat. That's so called role-play.

So, useless spells shows you how bad balance is. The idea was to create wide range of possible builds/setups. Now, even PE should look like a tank. Yes, dont use spells. Yes, use only drugs as tank does. Sad.

Why we have wide range of setups? Let's remove all useless chips and create 4 playable setups for each class. PE able to rezz? Impossible! Remove all abillities to do that! PE able to remove stack via spell? Ridicules. Remove that ability either. PE able to use HC? Fantastish! Only tank must use heavy weapons. And so on.

Dasore
25-05-14, 18:24
okay that can only cause a big lol of my side,
have you ever played with a flamer for example? same aimspeed as pistol? no way.
if your flamer aims that fast, plz send me your dev files ;)

viable setups for pvp? i can at least give ya 10 setups for pe i already tried at vedenna.
used weapons: pot/ttepic/plasma wave/xbow/rolh/libi/wyat/tsu epic/desperado/rog with and without psi setup.

why tank got the most con and best armor? cause they cant stealth? no pvp subskills like hacking?
tank the fastest class? run with your weapon pulled and tell me that again.
120+ athletics... plz stop trolling, thats no con setup that is total crap, no resists?

Leveling as pistol is the same as with hc, you just approach the fight a bit different, raypistols at regant, rocket pistols in crp caves, beam pistols/plasmas vs warbots, firemobs. i dont see any problem.

what implants are useless? the only real useless onces are probably the +X con chips, that moveon/marine needs rebalancing is true, same with the psi implants.

walkman
25-05-14, 21:56
viable setups for pvp? i can at least give ya 10 setups for pe i already tried at vedenna.
used weapons: pot/ttepic/plasma wave/xbow/rolh/libi/wyat/tsu epic/desperado/rog with and without psi setup.

And? I saw only one good setup on PE: low tech + libby/pain easer/etc. And still, when you cut half life on tank you possible already died.


why tank got the most con and best armor? cause they cant stealth?

Tell me this again when you got 3 stacks from devo, ha!


no pvp subskills like hacking?

Xpertz shares own accounts, ask Systemshock, for instance, about that. Hacker for OP? Or for what? Multi-accounting rulez. Ask everybody on server.


tank the fastest class? run with your weapon pulled and tell me that again.

Wear/hide in less then second. This is all answer. Aim? Close to victim as possible, then wear weapon and got 100% aim in less 1 second. Then burn victim in 5 seconds and see how he doing nothing and died.


120+ athletics... plz stop trolling, thats no con setup that is total crap, no resists?

I did not said that you must spend all point in athletics. Just install implants to improve that. While other classes can't do such things. This is too expensive for them. Wear TL 70 flamer and burn everyone around you. That's future of Neocron.


Leveling as pistol is the same as with hc, you just approach the fight a bit different, raypistols at regant, rocket pistols in crp caves, beam pistols/plasmas vs warbots, firemobs. i dont see any problem.

I did not point PvE above. Try self, how aim works. Do you see any differences? I am not. All the same. I had got less misses with heavy weapons then pistol. This is my opinion.


what implants are useless? the only real useless onces are probably the +X con chips, that moveon/marine needs rebalancing is true, same with the psi implants.

Ah, yes. Tanks should be much stronger. Even when they are strongest class already.

Drachenpaladin
25-05-14, 22:09
Aiming speed you say? Its almost the same for all types of weapons. Especially in close range combat, i.e. 100% aim in 1-1.5 second.

With HC weapons? At what skill setup?

walkman
25-05-14, 22:22
With HC weapons? At what skill setup?

With any weapons. The longest aim have only rifles. I suppose everybody read how many points spend to get best aim speed. Someone have even source code of the game.

http://www.techhaven.org/resources/weapon-guides/2.2-weapon-skill-influence-guide.html

So, if you smart enough you know how many points put in each skill to get best aiming. The only one problem here, that only few people know what "Base" value is set for each weapon. When you have found this value your setup will be clear.

I had already deinstalled the game and I have not any reason to get back. Just be a tank and everything will be ok. If you fights against another tank then this is normal situation: your hands is your main weapon.

walkman
26-05-14, 00:29
How hard to use:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=blFusUh6hkY

Dasore
26-05-14, 02:08
is it you on the tank? i dont think so

if you cant win against a tank in pvp you should probably train to get better. Tank is the strongest class atm on titan cause the cs does too much dmg, but i dont think so on vedeena. btw flamer does less dmg when the aim is not full closed, why that flamer does so much damage atm when you hit someone is cause none specs fire, cause only flamer does real fire dmg and you hardly see someone using it cause its so hard to aim with.

walkman
26-05-14, 03:24
if you cant win against a tank in pvp you should probably train to get better.

How better? When my xbow deals 48 dmg on tank, how many time I should spend to win? When I will be able to kill tank with such setup and then I switch to tank I sure you that I will able to win against 2 or even 3 tanks :D

What I want to say that aim mechanic does not give any advantages to other class, expect monks. The major advantage of monks is that their aim is about 0.1 second. In same time I see that any pistol have in 1.5 times less range. In 1.5 times deals less damage. Or in 8 times less ammo package in case of ionic pistol. You may search video on youtube where PE or Spy plays with pistols and you will see that their aiming even worst then your CS/Devo/etc. There are a lot of video with OP, in rare case pistol deals primary damage, most damage deals other people and not the man from video. And there are a lot of stupid/smart video where some guys came with laser rifles (which as every one know does not work in pvp), or then man hunting on the back victim, this is a real crap. In same time even with PPU shields spies/PEs has lost more then half their hp and this is total lose in duels/pairs. And you still say that I should better train? Where no real advantages?

Tell me, what are advantages of PE/pistol?

* Shields/spells?

On my setup total resist (with spells and armor) against any elemental damage (fire/energy/poison/xray) is about 48-49% versus 55+% on any tank. I have 60% against piercing, 59.5% against force, any tank have same or even better.

* Stealth?

I have real close combat, because the best pistol has 352m range and mostly I dont use it. Any tank doesnt stay in one place and move/run on me. After that I will got devo with fire stack. Use stealth and what? Right, tank stays near me with reloaded weapons and with 50% hp in best case, and he heals self with medkit + 2 injectors. While I have less 300 hp and cant do anything.

* Drugs?

Is there some special drug for PE? No. Everybody uses the same range of drugs: paratemol, desterol, redflash, whiteflash and so on.

* Can I have better speed then tank?

Yes, but I will be weak in factor of 2-3. What is point in that?

* Is a real requirement to wear PA on PE?

Yes, but good tank does not wear any PA! Who is biggest char in game? Yeah, the biggest texture in such case I have and not a tank.

* Do I have better aiming then heavy cannon?

No. In close range aiming the same.

* Do I deal better damage then heavy cannon?

No. Best pistol has 1 bullet and without 100% aiming it misses in 80%+ cases.

* Do I have better reload speed on pistol?

No. Every weapon has almost same reload time. In case of heavy cannons there are no real advantages.

* Do I have better speed with pistol in hand?

Yes, the advantage is about +5 ath and +5 agi. But time for wear/hide of any weapon is the same and takes less 1 second. So, smarty tank in any case able to get closer to you then you are able to escape and sneak from him.

* Do I have ability to remove stack with spell?

Yes, but its does nothing. I just lost a time for something better.

* Do I have ability to spend skill points in hacking/something else?

Yes. But if you spend 100 points in hacking/anything your aim will be worst in around 30% and output will be also bad. Dont spend f*** points on something except combat skills!

* Do I have some special ability?

No. This is not the WoW. No advantages, only pack of disadvantages.

tarasm
26-05-14, 04:33
tl;dr walkman has no skills and complains that pistols sucks. aiming is def better on pistols than cs close combat. you can also drop a tank with a clip of bhg if you land all your shots in the head. while the cs is overpowered, as a pistol spy im not scared of any other hc weapon especially a devo. be fast, move well and have aim and youll be dropping most dev tanks.

Dasore
26-05-14, 08:42
tl;dr walkman has no skills and complains that pistols sucks. aiming is def better on pistols than cs close combat. you can also drop a tank with a clip of bhg if you land all your shots in the head. while the cs is overpowered, as a pistol spy im not scared of any other hc weapon especially a devo. be fast, move well and have aim and youll be dropping most dev tanks.

finally someone who got it... :)

btw, monks aim in 0,1 secs? u must be drunk. if ur aim isnt closed on a monk you dont deal any real dmg, and if ur really lucky you get the good old waving hand bugs and then casting is fucked for the next 2-3 secs

if the aiming % in the weapon info is 250% aiming is capped... you get that on most setups even with subskill in int.

walkman
26-05-14, 10:05
btw, monks aim in 0,1 secs? u must be drunk. if ur aim isnt closed on a monk you dont deal any real dmg, and if ur really lucky you get the good old waving hand bugs and then casting is fucked for the next 2-3 secs

So, your PPU casts on you bad buffs in OP fights, LOL. Because mechanic for PPU and APU spells are same. In next 2-3 secs I may run away, turn on 180 degree and do the same again. And trust me, victim will got all its damage. And actually this is not a bug. This is just prevent spell spuffing/spamming.


if the aiming % in the weapon info is 250% aiming is capped... you get that on most setups even with subskill in int.

There are no cap. That thing in info is just soft cap. When you reached it any adjustment has smaller effect. Read the notes from dev. In another case they are liers.

Dasore
26-05-14, 10:49
So, your PPU casts on you bad buffs in OP fights, LOL. Because mechanic for PPU and APU spells are same. In next 2-3 secs I may run away, turn on 180 degree and do the same again. And trust me, victim will got all its damage. And actually this is not a bug. This is just prevent spell spuffing/spamming.

thought we speaking of dmg dealers.... now you come along with ppus...

walkman
26-05-14, 11:25
thought we speaking of dmg dealers.... now you come along with ppus...

I just point you that your conclusions are wrong. If APU should get aim like Spy/Tank and wait for it 2 seconds then its totally disbalance game. APU cant stay and take all damage from CS/BHG. Thats why APU is able to aim on you in 0.1 seconds, cast spell, turn around and cover somewhere. And APU do this again and again. Your BHG kills APU within 3-4 shots. And what he able to do with you? Correct, nothing. And many non-monks players like this. So, I want in that case that PPU also doing aim in 3 seconds, like my xbow does, otherwise spell should totally falls.

The another solution is give to APU ultimate DD spells, which deals 1k and more damage per cast. But where is such spell? Correct, there are no one. Where is working PSI resist skill? Nowhere. We have what we have. And still some tanks thinks that they are weak...

Alduin
26-05-14, 12:11
First of all a kind and friendly reminder to everyone in this thread to be nice and polite to each other. In case you have any troubles/want to compare your e-peen with each other log in to Vedeena and resolve your problems on the battlefield!

Walkman: may I conclude from the following:

I had already deinstalled the game and I have not any reason to get back. Just be a tank and everything will be ok. If you fights against another tank then this is normal situation: your hands is your main weapon.
that you have never set foot onto Vedeena?

walkman
26-05-14, 12:41
that you have never set foot onto Vedeena?

I was on Veedena and did tests and all my messeges about issues rely for Vedeena. TL 70 flamer was (and possible still, i did not test last patch) overpowered in duel HC PE vs PC PE (T#193). Antidotes spell casts within 6-7 seconds, I died many times, even on success of spell, But stack killed me 1 second before then cast ended.

And currently, yes, I have deinstalled game, because I see your balance direction. Its not a funny play with pistol which deal less 120 dmg and put stack with 8 dmg. TL/DPM curve is broken in such way. The game stays same: strongest will stronger, weakest will weaker. The same thing that best pistol on PE is stays for xbow. Judge unfixed. Backup Gun unfixed. And many other usefull pistols unfixed. Look at TL 92 Pulselaser, why it deals more damage then Judge (same for Titan, same for Vedeena/T#193)? Look at TL 87 Blacksun, same thing, it deals more damage then Judge.

And now, some "hard to use" TL 70 flamer deals twice more damage then even xbow: 150 dmg own + 240dmg per stack (30dmg x 8 sec) = 390 dmg.

Dasore
26-05-14, 12:44
The another solution is give to APU ultimate DD spells, which deals 1k and more damage per cast. But where is such spell? Correct, there are no one. Where is working PSI resist skill? Nowhere. We have what we have. And still some tanks thinks that they are weak...

resist psi is working... [Edited] Otherwise you would have seen it in the logs ;)

walkman
26-05-14, 12:59
resist psi is working... [Edited - Consistency] Otherwise you would have seen it in the logs ;)

[Edited]

And what about resist psi, how it works? Works like that PPU unable to heal you? :D

Dasore
26-05-14, 13:23
reduce dmg of apu attacks... but what the sense of you even writing here? no nc installed? so you couldnt even test the last mhh 10 patches?

slith
26-05-14, 15:50
Guess who walkmen was fighting against..

Drachenpaladin
26-05-14, 16:45
Guess who walkmen was fighting against..

Queen Magdalene of Sweden?

Dasore
26-05-14, 17:34
Guess who walkmen was fighting against..

lol falk, couldnt u turn ur monitor off for that fight... first he was flaming in the tankocron threat, now in here.... ;)


Happy Birthday Drachen, wasnt it yesterday?

Drachenpaladin
26-05-14, 17:56
Happy Birthday Drachen, wasnt it yesterday?

Daaaww... yep, thanks but shush, no offtopic in here *cough* :angel:

Kame
26-05-14, 22:26
[Edited]

Dropout
27-05-14, 10:59
So, your PPU casts on you bad buffs in OP fights, LOL. Because mechanic for PPU and APU spells are same. In next 2-3 secs I may run away, turn on 180 degree and do the same again. And trust me, victim will got all its damage. And actually this is not a bug. This is just prevent spell spuffing/spamming.

Uhm.. Unless something have changed (Im not really a monk-player) on the testserver, this is completely bullshit..
APU's have a reticle - If the reticle is not closed you will do damage, yes.. But the damage you do will be so low that the cast was a waste of time. Not really the same as for PPU's, now is it?



There are no cap. That thing in info is just soft cap. When you reached it any adjustment has smaller effect. Read the notes from dev. In another case they are liers.

Some thing do have a cap.. like freq.. Uh yeah, and aim.



lol falk, couldnt u turn ur monitor off for that fight... first he was flaming in the tankocron threat, now in here.... ;)

Still wouldnt have been a fair fight :p

Massaker
29-05-14, 13:43
I really like to see that someone try to fix the last worth balancing and make it more viable for all classes. For instance the APU that lost his right to exist after the remove of the anti shield spells.
Now he got this spells back and the PPU can focus on supporting the players while the APU can focus on damage and debuff the others what make more sence.

What I miss a little bit is the return of the stacks of the Fire Apoc and poison beam. They make instant damage now. I really liked the disadvantages and benefits of the stack damage of this spells in the past. One shot of a Fire Apoc or poison beam made less damage than the instant damage of the Holy Lighting.
But after the third shot the damage was the same and raised if the APU kept to fire on one single target. This was some kind of reward for good aim and skill. So I think this should be back. If you say the Devourer is a powerful weapon that spreads the burning gasoline all over the body of the target and burns heavily why should the Fire Apoc or the poison beam don't do the same?
I mean we have a lot of anti spells for the PPU like the antidote or anti fire and some drugs but they are useless in PVP and are only usefull in the caves. But the Bat Queen for instance put the next poison stack on you while you removed the last stacks with a drug or an antidote spell.
To give this items more importance it will be nice to get the dots for some weapons back again.

Another thing that scares me a little bit is the frequency of some weapons on the test server now. I logged my Tank and tried the CS. OK the frequence is a bit slower than before but the frequence of the rifles is joke (sorry but this is my personal opinion). The First love made now pew...pew... The last balancing project decrease the old burst from four shots to two shots. Who the hell made this and why were the plasma weapons not eaqualized to one kind of burst? A burst of three shots or four shots for the plasma pistols and rilfes will be better and compensate the great stamina consumption that the weapon have now.
So my proposal for the plasma rifles and pistols will be to lower the damage of one burst but increase the frequence again and edit the shots of a single burst. At the end the weapon should do the same damage in a minute with a higher frequence but less damage with a single burst.

Another idea will be to get back to the old burst of Neocron 1. Maybe someone know the old burst frequence of the CS. In other words :-) the burst was pew, pew, pew, pew...(a little break) and then continued. But now it make pew... pew... pew... pew... while holding the mouse button and it sounds monotonous (this is the moment when I'll get sleepy because it's so slow). The first shot should come instantly but after the last shot of the burst there should be a little break.
As it's now on the test server it's like a low speed shooter. The only thing that is fast is the movement and the gatling cannon of the Tank :-P So there should be some changes to the count of shots of a single burst for some weapons (for instance the plasma pistol and rifle).

Kame
29-05-14, 16:06
I've been campaigning for a burst and clip size fixe for weeks now.

Equalize burst based on :

Weapon type (pistol 2, rifles 3, cannons 4)

Or

Weapon familly (plasma 4, laser 4, as it used to be)



Remove the clipsize bonus for rares. Make non rare more viable.

Dissy has 1 more shots than stabber.

CS has 2 more shots than TPC.

slith
30-05-14, 10:00
Weapon familly (plasma 4, laser 4, as it used to be)This! Especially the First Love needs its 4 projectiles per click back.


Remove the clipsize bonus for rares. Make non rare more viable.This!


CS has 2 more shots than TPC.And this is not true, only 1 shot less. Still sucks :P

Massaker
30-05-14, 15:25
This! Especially the First Love needs its 4 projectiles per click back.

This!

And this is not true, only 1 shot less. Still sucks :P

Sorry its true ;) The TPC has a clipsize of 32

Kame
30-05-14, 19:02
I pvp a lot lately using Raekwon, my /53 HC tank.

TPC's clip indeed is 32 while CS is 40.

Kame
30-05-14, 20:30
Speaking with Dasore today he mentionned you guys changed the burst shot size on Dissy because it seemed the best way to get damage in line.

WELL DUH GUYS IVE ONLY BEEN SAYING THIS FOR MY LAST 20 POSTS !!!

It irritates me so much the way you guys tell me "we will adjust those later" an then of course you adjust it now because it's the only logical thing to do.


/ rant

You design a weak solution, and just because you get told so you delay the patch progress because youre too stubborn to admit some random guy on forum was right all along.


Now please look at the clip shot size. Now, not later.

Teal`c
31-05-14, 13:50
What I miss a little bit is the return of the stacks of the Fire Apoc and poison beam.
We`ll see synch whoring monks then. Placing some dots towards the enemy and then back to safezone while still doing damage.


Another thing that scares me a little bit is the frequency of some weapons on the test server now.

Agree , some are much slower like liberator or plasma pistols. Either raising the frequency or people getting tired as fast as playing world of warcraft.


Another idea will be to get back to the old burst of Neocron 1. Maybe someone know the old burst frequence of the CS

Its 227.

Dasore
01-06-14, 20:58
Any updates?

Alduin
03-06-14, 09:43
Another thing that scares me a little bit is the frequency of some weapons on the test server now.
Well that's something which we can adjust and tune. :)


You design a weak solution
Grah go away! Go away! Go away! This reminds me of all the discussions I had with my supervisor concerning weak solutions of differential equations and whether they would suffice for our purpose or whether a strong solution is needed, hell that was fun!

Regarding the standardization of clip shot sizes: use the rares as reference points or the non-rares?


We`ll see synch whoring monks then. Placing some dots towards the enemy and then back to safezone while still doing damage.
This should not work anymore. The LE synch exploit fix should also tackle this problem, meaning that once you synch your DoT should not work anymore. This should only hold for agressive effects not passive ones.


Any updates?
Working on it ;)

Tino
03-06-14, 16:13
Ummm Kame i was the first person to say on this forum thread that Dissy should be changed to 3 burst instead of 4 burst...but yet you try to take credit...scroll back please =) Your Welcome

Dasore
03-06-14, 16:20
Ummm Kame i was the first person to say on this forum thread that Dissy should be changed to 3 burst instead of 4 burst...but yet you try to take credit...scroll back please =) Your Welcome

who cares what was said then... if its need to be changed now then its the time to change now ;)

Tino
03-06-14, 16:36
I care...Your welcome for the great idea...even if someone had it before me i was the first to post it on this thread =)

Divide
03-06-14, 16:42
I care...Your welcome for the great idea...even if someone had it before me i was the first to post it on this thread =)


*You're

Dasore
03-06-14, 16:46
I care...Your welcome for the great idea...even if someone had it before me i was the first to post it on this thread =)

Probably cause i try to help and spend some time testing and not only writting stuff without even testing the current changes on the testserver? ;)

Trivaldi
03-06-14, 16:50
Please, let's focus on moving forward and not on berating each other. We appreciate all feedback, testing and constructive criticism we receive in order to move the balance project forward with you all.

Dasore
03-06-14, 16:52
Please, let's focus on moving forward and not on berating each other. We appreciate all feedback, testing and constructive criticism we receive in order to move the balance project forward with you all.

Everything fine ;) tino is just to lazy to write in whatsapp so we have to flame each others here ;)

Tino
03-06-14, 17:10
Why should i continue to help out and give ideas if people are only going to try and steal them/claim them for their own =)

Dasore
03-06-14, 17:27
Why should i continue to help out and give ideas if people are only going to try and steal them/claim them for their own =)

damn someone in here needs to compensate for his rl? ;)

back to topic:
Any updates on testserver? Whats the next testing about?

Kame
03-06-14, 18:05
I suggest basing clip size off of the rare weapons.

Players are acustomed to those and basing off of non-rare would be felt as a clip-size reduction by most, this creating complaining.

Dasore
03-06-14, 18:14
I suggest basing clip size off of the rare weapons.

Players are acustomed to those and basing off of non-rare would be felt as a clip-size reduction by most, this creating complaining.

yeah think the same, rare clip size.

Massaker
03-06-14, 19:33
This should not work anymore. The LE synch exploit fix should also tackle this problem, meaning that once you synch your DoT should not work anymore. This should only hold for agressive effects not passive ones.



So there is a chance to get the stacks back for APU spells like Fire Apoc, poison beam and the barrel?
Please more information :)

tarasm
04-06-14, 10:51
How about we fix the soullight issue on the testserver. Seems like the only thing you can get from pvp these days is negative soullight. Then your stuck running recycle or tl150 missions to fix your soullight while your OWN faction guards shoot you even though your faction sympathy is in good standing. So all you are left with is exploiting faction headquarters to not get shot by guards for trying to kill reds in the wrong "zone".

What a messed up pvp system.

step 1 - no sl loss for killing reds anywhere
step 2 - faction guards react on faction symp. Where are you supposed to go if your sl is fucked?

Trivaldi
04-06-14, 11:25
How about we fix the soullight issue on the testserver. Seems like the only thing you can get from pvp these days is negative soullight. Then your stuck running recycle or tl150 missions to fix your soullight while your OWN faction guards shoot you even though your faction sympathy is in good standing. So all you are left with is exploiting faction headquarters to not get shot by guards for trying to kill reds in the wrong "zone".

What a messed up pvp system.

step 1 - no sl loss for killing reds anywhere
step 2 - faction guards react on faction symp. Where are you supposed to go if your sl is fucked?
There will be some changes regarding this in the content side of this patch. For discussions on these things please feel free to open a thread in the Brainport if you have any particular ideas or suggestions. At the moment we are solely focused on the balancing project in this thread.

Torg
04-06-14, 16:06
Where are you supposed to go if your sl is fucked?OZ 8, jail.

Alduin
04-06-14, 16:53
So there is a chance to get the stacks back for APU spells like Fire Apoc, poison beam and the barrel?
Please more information :)

Yes that is in general possible, technically not that hard, but I think we should move that to the backlog, because that would add another layer of complexity in balancing. I would suggest that you remind me of that once the first balancing patch has been pushed to Titan, so we make sure it is not forgotten :)

However the frequencies of the weapons is something I would like to touch before pushing the balancing patch to Titan. Therefore a list of weapons (grouped by weapon types) would be needed. This also needs to be checked for lower level weapons. Is it for certain level ranges more severe?

Dasore
04-06-14, 22:00
ALL TESTED WEAPONS WERE THE RARE VERSION

PLASMA
Heavy: 177/min, could need a bit more delay between each burst, its more like 40 bullets in a row instead of burst of 4
Rifles: 167/min, same as with hc plasma, 30 bullets in mag and 2 shots just eats up ur stam, less stam use or higher burst?
Pistol: 137/min, same as with hc plasma, only difference is 20 bullets a mag and 2 shots

PULSLASER
Rifle: 105/min, same prob as with plasma weapons, more a stream of shots instead of 3 shots and then a little pause. the burst is way to slow
Pistol: 159/min, same as rifle

LASER
Heavy: 37/min, feels like titan
Rifle: 83/min, pause between the shots seems very good
Pistol: 48/min, seems okay for a beamweapon

FUSION:
Heavy: 36/min, AOE
Rifle: 63/min, everything fine
Pistol: 116/min, the only problem with that gun is that you loose too much dmg in close combat, and thats what pistol is for right? and you cant even fight mobs with it cause when it starts doing okay dmg you miss every 2nd shot.

RAYGUN:
Heavy: 31/min, AOE
Rifle: 36/min, good
Pistol: 38/min, good

GATLING:
Heavy 346/min, Rifle 279/min, Pistol 173/min all work like gatlings

UZI
187/min, feels a bit slow, more like a automatic pistol instead of an uzi

Desperado 50/min, Terminator 109/min, Thunder 44/min, SH 22/min all seem okay the only problem is the PE 174/min which needs a bit more pause between each burst.

Wyatt 47/min, Craftmans 44/min and BHG 49/min feel good, probably the wyatt could need a bit high freq.

Devourer 31/min, Summer 41/min and winding 31/min are okay, the Ravager 127/min has the same problem as the laser and plasma weapons, its more a continous stream of dmg instead of burst with pause

Apu needs 2,5-3 times the frequ on his solo spells 34/min is shit, Holy Frostration still does 100 dmg, not the dmg it should do. Barrels seem okay


Now to the nonerares which have different frequenzes than the rares except apu spells which dont.

The difference in the frequ shouldnt be that high. A tl 78 Black Market RF Rifle does 350 dmg at a frequ of 37, while the desperado tl 103 does 300 dmg at a freq of 50/min. Probably there should be a bit less freq on nonerares, but not that much, people most of the time decide while leveling which weapon they want to use later.

Dasore
05-06-14, 12:49
Hacknet:
didnt find the rare hacknet software.
so all tests are made with the tl 7X software

PVP with that software is just a joke, without shild even you need around 200 hits in the head before you die when heal is running. Why is the heal 120 secs in hacknet and not shorter like the ppu heals? so you have to decide if you heal or do dmg while fighting.

Some mobs do too much and others not much enough. the tl 96/96 in the travels rape ya like nothing, while 127/127 ping of death doesnt really do dmg. No need to talk about the Phoenix cpu, that shitty thing is crappy as hell.

Frequ is fine, but the pve dmg should be higher 1/3 more or so, while pvp dmg should be x10.

If you fall off in hacknet you will always die, too much fall dmg?

We are no hacknet pros but we have both been there before so if you could give us the rare hacknet software we could also test the rest ;)

BUG: if you die in the phonix room in hacknet you get a speedhack in the world for around 20 secs... 10x runspeed or so ;) happend to both of us.

Tobson
05-06-14, 13:17
ALL TESTED WEAPONS WERE THE RARE VERSION

PLASMA
Heavy: 177/min, could need a bit more delay between each burst, its more like 40 bullets in a row instead of burst of 4
Rifles: 167/min, same as with hc plasma, 30 bullets in mag and 2 shots just eats up ur stam, less stam use or higher burst?
Pistol: 137/min, same as with hc plasma, only difference is 20 bullets a mag and 2 shots

PULSLASER
Rifle: 105/min, same prob as with plasma weapons, more a stream of shots instead of 3 shots and then a little pause. the burst is way to slow
Pistol: 159/min, same as rifle

LASER
Heavy: 37/min, feels like titan
Rifle: 83/min, pause between the shots seems very good
Pistol: 48/min, seems okay for a beamweapon

FUSION:
Heavy: 36/min, AOE
Rifle: 63/min, everything fine
Pistol: 116/min, the only problem with that gun is that you loose too much dmg in close combat, and thats what pistol is for right? and you cant even fight mobs with it cause when it starts doing okay dmg you miss every 2nd shot.

RAYGUN:
Heavy: 31/min, AOE
Rifle: 36/min, good
Pistol: 38/min, good

GATLING:
Heavy 346/min, Rifle 279/min, Pistol 173/min all work like gatlings

UZI
187/min, feels a bit slow, more like a automatic pistol instead of an uzi

Desperado 50/min, Terminator 109/min, Thunder 44/min, SH 22/min all seem okay the only problem is the PE 174/min which needs a bit more pause between each burst.

Wyatt 47/min, Craftmans 44/min and BHG 49/min feel good, probably the wyatt could need a bit high freq.

Devourer 31/min, Summer 41/min and winding 31/min are okay, the Ravager 127/min has the same problem as the laser and plasma weapons, its more a continous stream of dmg instead of burst with pause

Apu needs 2,5-3 times the frequ on his solo spells 34/min is shit, Holy Frostration still does 100 dmg, not the dmg it should do. Barrels seem okay


Now to the nonerares which have different frequenzes than the rares except apu spells which dont.

The difference in the frequ shouldnt be that high. A tl 78 Black Market RF Rifle does 350 dmg at a frequ of 37, while the desperado tl 103 does 300 dmg at a freq of 50/min. Probably there should be a bit less freq on nonerares, but not that much, people most of the time decide while leveling which weapon they want to use later.

nice work

Divide
06-06-14, 03:19
Alduin - Is there any consideration taking place to reduce the time of PPU heals back to 15 seconds? The 60s heal that is around today feels wayyyy too long and takes away from the general feel of a lifesaver. In other MMO's, I used to ALWAYS brag about the difficulty healing in NC. That mechanic isn't the same these days, and I have a feeling that the lack of anti's will leave PPU's in a less demanding and fulfilling state.

Alduin
06-06-14, 16:10
Alduin - Is there any consideration taking place to reduce the time of PPU heals back to 15 seconds? The 60s heal that is around today feels wayyyy too long and takes away from the general feel of a lifesaver. In other MMO's, I used to ALWAYS brag about the difficulty healing in NC. That mechanic isn't the same these days, and I have a feeling that the lack of anti's will leave PPU's in a less demanding and fulfilling state.

No, there have not been further considerations yet. I also have to admit I would very much like to not get into those considerations as of yet (phase 1), because I think they would require more time to be well layed out and implemented. I would propose to move those considerations to phase 2. Maybe lower the duration of heals to 30 seconds, to have rough test on how those and similar changes might affect ppus...

[UPDATE]
So there have been a few further tweaks to apus. The frequency can be further raised and another bug has been fixed in the way apu spells behave. However in a local test environment I cannot test every aspect of the fix, so testing it will have to wait until the patch is pushed to Vedeena.

Bursts have also been fixed. Weapons are not just streams of shots anymore, but instead real bursts of shots + a break.

Beam weapons had another overhaul, some functions refactored, further legacy code replaced by new code.

Now the last thing for the next iteration is/are drones.

Dropout
06-06-14, 16:51
/snip
Wow.. Working hard, aye? :D


Now the last thing for the next iteration is/are drones.
Just remove them from the game? :angel:

Alduin
11-06-14, 14:36
R#186 - T#195 - Release Candidate Four has been released! Please have a look at the patch notes thread (http://forum.neocron-game.com/showthread.php?155324-R-186-T-186-T-192-Patch-Notes&p=2225873#post2225873). Just to highlight a few changes: drones have been balanced and the APU's cast frequency has been raised.

nabbl
11-06-14, 15:15
R#186 - T#195 - Release Candidate Four has been released! Please have a look at the patch notes thread (http://forum.neocron-game.com/showthread.php?155324-R-186-T-186-T-192-Patch-Notes&p=2225873#post2225873). Just to highlight a few changes: drones have been balanced and the APU's cast frequency has been raised.

Cannot update my testserver client.

Dasore
11-06-14, 15:46
i updated 2 clients from 194 to 195 without problem

nabbl
11-06-14, 17:25
i updated 2 clients from 194 to 195 without problem

yeah. seems to work now..

Dasore
11-06-14, 18:08
the pew pew pew is much better now, i like that the plasma waves sounds now also that it is shooting 3 times

Apu aoe needs to be rebalanced, all barrales tl 82-tl 110 do the same dmg.
Apu single target spells should cost less psi.. while aoe is okay.

On the fire apo the ammo/damage fire (xx) and psi energie XX is missing... at least on my screen

Massaker
11-06-14, 18:26
I think the Anti spells of the APU shouldn't have a frequency of 56 1/min?

APU damage of spells where the tl > 100 is quit a joke. After 7 shots with the Fire Apoc I only did 400hp damage on my tank.
As Dasore already said the psi energy consumption is quite to heavy regarding to the damage output

Massaker
11-06-14, 20:23
Another thing: The duration of the damage boost could be lowered too. At the moment the duration is 2 minutes. I think 1 minute is quite enough.

The APU: pressing the mouse but don't make damage on players. The cast is visible and the beam hit the player but no damage registered.

Artricia.
12-06-14, 08:30
Testing my noob PE ppu buffs on vedeena with the new patch:
(lemme know if the format is correct)

Absorption: (Being shot by a raging weasel drone, energy/xray if that helps any)
PPU:80 Focusing: 59 Psi use: 4

Interestingly i looked at the log and saw ZERO "damage reduced by shields" just damaged reduced by armor and skills...In the entire log. Let me show the top 7 hits on the log.


Local Player:Damage() - Damage processing statistics!
Damage: 1.880 Target Piercing HitZone 1 - Part 0
Damage: 1.241 (Reduction: 0.639 - 34.013 Percentage) - Damage reduced by player armor
Damage: 0.789 (Reduction: 1.091 - 58.032 Percentage) - Damage reduced by player skills
Results of this target: Damage 0.789 (Reduction: 1.091 - 58.032 Percentage) - ResistanceCap: 0.840!

Local Player:Damage() - Damage processing statistics!
Damage: 1.880 Target Piercing HitZone 1 - Part 0
Damage: 1.241 (Reduction: 0.639 - 34.013 Percentage) - Damage reduced by player armor
Damage: 0.789 (Reduction: 1.091 - 58.032 Percentage) - Damage reduced by player skills
Results of this target: Damage 0.789 (Reduction: 1.091 - 58.032 Percentage) - ResistanceCap: 0.840!


Local Player:Damage() - Damage processing statistics!
Damage: -18.790 Target Fulldamage HitZone 1 - Part 0
Results of this target: Damage -18.790 (Reduction: 0.000 - -0.000 Percentage) - ResistanceCap: 0.840!

Local Player:Damage() - Damage processing statistics!
Damage: 1.880 Target Piercing HitZone 1 - Part 0
Damage: 1.241 (Reduction: 0.639 - 34.013 Percentage) - Damage reduced by player armor
Damage: 0.789 (Reduction: 1.091 - 58.032 Percentage) - Damage reduced by player skills
Results of this target: Damage 0.789 (Reduction: 1.091 - 58.032 Percentage) - ResistanceCap: 0.840!

Local Player:Damage() - Damage processing statistics!
Damage: -18.790 Target Fulldamage HitZone 1 - Part 0
Results of this target: Damage -18.790 (Reduction: 0.000 - -0.000 Percentage) - ResistanceCap: 0.840!

Local Player:Damage() - Damage processing statistics!
Damage: 1.880 Target Piercing HitZone 1 - Part 0
Damage: 1.241 (Reduction: 0.639 - 34.013 Percentage) - Damage reduced by player armor
Damage: 0.789 (Reduction: 1.091 - 58.032 Percentage) - Damage reduced by player skills
Results of this target: Damage 0.789 (Reduction: 1.091 - 58.032 Percentage) - ResistanceCap: 0.840!

Local Player:Damage() - Damage processing statistics!
Damage: -18.790 Target Fulldamage HitZone 1 - Part 0
Results of this target: Damage -18.790 (Reduction: 0.000 - -0.000 Percentage) - ResistanceCap: 0.840!

maybe i'm missing something here, but it looks like absorber is not functioning properly.


EDIT: looks like the same problem for the deflector spell.
with PPU:80 Focusing: 59 Psi use: 4, being shot at by a mosquito drone (which says 173 piercing on its tooltip)


Local Player:Damage() - Damage processing statistics!
Damage: -18.790 Target Fulldamage HitZone 1 - Part 0
Results of this target: Damage -18.790 (Reduction: 0.000 - -0.000 Percentage) - ResistanceCap: 0.840!


Local Player:Damage() - Damage processing statistics!
Damage: -18.790 Target Fulldamage HitZone 1 - Part 0
Results of this target: Damage -18.790 (Reduction: 0.000 - -0.000 Percentage) - ResistanceCap: 0.840!


Local Player:Damage() - Damage processing statistics!
Damage: -18.790 Target Fulldamage HitZone 1 - Part 0
Results of this target: Damage -18.790 (Reduction: 0.000 - -0.000 Percentage) - ResistanceCap: 0.840!


Local Player:Damage() - Damage processing statistics!
Damage: -18.790 Target Fulldamage HitZone 1 - Part 0
Results of this target: Damage -18.790 (Reduction: 0.000 - -0.000 Percentage) - ResistanceCap: 0.840!


Local Player:Damage() - Damage processing statistics!
Damage: -18.790 Target Fulldamage HitZone 1 - Part 0
Results of this target: Damage -18.790 (Reduction: 0.000 - -0.000 Percentage) - ResistanceCap: 0.840!


Local Player:Damage() - Damage processing statistics!
Damage: -18.790 Target Fulldamage HitZone 1 - Part 0
Results of this target: Damage -18.790 (Reduction: 0.000 - -0.000 Percentage) - ResistanceCap: 0.840!


Local Player:Damage() - Damage processing statistics!
Damage: -18.790 Target Fulldamage HitZone 1 - Part 0
Results of this target: Damage -18.790 (Reduction: 0.000 - -0.000 Percentage) - ResistanceCap: 0.840!


Local Player:Damage() - Damage processing statistics!
Damage: -18.790 Target Fulldamage HitZone 1 - Part 0
Results of this target: Damage -18.790 (Reduction: 0.000 - -0.000 Percentage) - ResistanceCap: 0.840!


Local Player:Damage() - Damage processing statistics!
Damage: -18.790 Target Fulldamage HitZone 1 - Part 0
Results of this target: Damage -18.790 (Reduction: 0.000 - -0.000 Percentage) - ResistanceCap: 0.840!


Local Player:Damage() - Damage processing statistics!
Damage: -18.790 Target Fulldamage HitZone 1 - Part 0
Results of this target: Damage -18.790 (Reduction: 0.000 - -0.000 Percentage) - ResistanceCap: 0.840!


Local Player:Damage() - Damage processing statistics!
Damage: -18.790 Target Fulldamage HitZone 1 - Part 0
Results of this target: Damage -18.790 (Reduction: 0.000 - -0.000 Percentage) - ResistanceCap: 0.840!


Local Player:Damage() - Damage processing statistics!
Damage: -18.790 Target Fulldamage HitZone 1 - Part 0
Results of this target: Damage -18.790 (Reduction: 0.000 - -0.000 Percentage) - ResistanceCap: 0.840!


Local Player:Damage() - Damage processing statistics!
Damage: -18.790 Target Fulldamage HitZone 1 - Part 0
Results of this target: Damage -18.790 (Reduction: 0.000 - -0.000 Percentage) - ResistanceCap: 0.840!


Local Player:Damage() - Damage processing statistics!
Damage: -18.790 Target Fulldamage HitZone 1 - Part 0
Results of this target: Damage -18.790 (Reduction: 0.000 - -0.000 Percentage) - ResistanceCap: 0.840!

Artricia.
12-06-14, 08:48
Libby:

180 PC 18 weapon lore, 90 agl
Tooltip says
34 pierce
11 xray
187/min shot freq
103m range

Shooting the camel, 92 damage per shot, 4 shots per burst


now trying 180PC, 132 weapon lore, 90 agl
tooltip says
40 pierce
13 xray
187/min shot freq
140m range

Shooting the camel: 108 damage per shot, 4 shots per burst

Artricia.
12-06-14, 12:13
12344



Ok. wow. that was a lot of data. Made a .xls file (not xlsx for maximum compatibility) for anyone curious of all the pistols,
-at least two different datapoints (some have 3) of each gun
-the PC, TC, WEP, AGL recorded
-range/damage/rate of fire in tooltip as well for each recording

That took quite a few hours! Whew!

Also somehow i got a slasher, then couldn't find where i got the slasher later so couldn't test again. weird. I also didn't test the WoC guns cuz...i can't seem to find a fast way to get WoC on test (without like, grinding....)

Hopefully this helps! Cheers!

Drachenpaladin
12-06-14, 12:27
Also somehow i got a slasher, then couldn't find where i got the slasher later so couldn't test again. weird. I also didn't test the WoC guns cuz...i can't seem to find a fast way to get WoC on test (without like, grinding....)

Hopefully this helps! Cheers!

Slasher is not with the rare weapons dealer?
For WoC, der is a WOCOMAT which gives out WoC disks for zilch and a portal to the WoC temple. In the temple to the left is a NPC with Tank Camo PA iirc which gives you a mission that rewards with LOADS of XP for a small rat so you should reach WoC1 fairly easy.

Teal`c
12-06-14, 12:28
12344
Also somehow i got a slasher, then couldn't find where i got the slasher later so couldn't test again. weird. I also didn't test the WoC guns cuz...i can't seem to find a fast way to get WoC on test (without like, grinding....)

U can buy the slasher @ "Rares" Npcs. They are in front of the Black dragon fsm.
Activating woc is fast by completing "kill the rat" mission given by the camo tank npc in ceres temple.

Artricia.
12-06-14, 12:30
huh, weird! i looked and looked, but ill check that npc again. and ahhh, ty about the woc! i knew it was something silly like that, but just couldn't find it. thanks again! gonna update that xls in a bit

Dasore
12-06-14, 12:32
slasher is way down in the rare npc list

Powerpunsh
12-06-14, 13:38
Artricia read the damagelog right. In the first Damagelog case u tried to reduce piercing damage with an absorption. Piercing damage gets reduced by a deflector, absorption reduces poison and fire.
In the second case you just copied your healtool/heal out of the log which does minus damage. The latest log entry is always the Charname_00 on its file bottom.

Massaker
12-06-14, 16:29
Absorbtion reduce energy and xray. Protection reduce poison and fire

Artricia.
12-06-14, 22:24
Artricia read the damagelog right. In the first Damagelog case u tried to reduce piercing damage with an absorption. Piercing damage gets reduced by a deflector, absorption reduces poison and fire.
In the second case you just copied your healtool/heal out of the log which does minus damage. The latest log entry is always the Charname_00 on its file bottom.


what the hell. weird. absorber does xray energy, and i was using a drone that said uses xray/energy. why the fuck is it showing as piercing damage? weird! so i tried it with getting shot with a pistol (judge, pure energy), showed a bit better stats this time


EDIT: threw em in a txt file
12348
80 and 71 PPU stats of a tl 3 deflector


12349
80 and 71 PPU stats of a tl 25 absorber

Artricia.
12-06-14, 23:24
ok, fixed the xls file, now has weapon datapoints on all pistols, WOC and otherwise.

12350

lemme know if i missed anything.

nabbl
13-06-14, 09:37
For people who wanna test shields and resist and so on...

you can just head over to:http://neocron-is.com/statistics
you will need to download microsoft silverlight. Just load your log files and it analyzes everything. The more data you have the greater your results of course :-)

Alduin
13-06-14, 10:28
For people who wanna test shields and resist and so on...

you can just head over to:http://neocron-is.com/statistics
you will need to download microsoft silverlight. Just load your log files and it analyzes everything. The more data you have the greater your results of course :-)

I love community crafted tools! I want to see more!

As for the current state of the APU: the reason for the damage output being far too low has been identified. The statemachine (the thingy controlling different phases of casting) is not using correct timings. This statemachine will be reimplemented throughout the weekend (hopefully that time suffices) and be patched to Vedeena right afterwards for testing.

Artricia.
13-06-14, 11:31
I love community crafted tools! I want to see more!

As for the current state of the APU: the reason for the damage output being far too low has been identified. The statemachine (the thingy controlling different phases of casting) is not using correct timings. This statemachine will be reimplemented throughout the weekend (hopefully that time suffices) and be patched to Vedeena right afterwards for testing.


oh ok awesome! i was in the process of testing some apu spells but i suppose i can put that on the backburner and start testing rifles/cannons now.

i cleaned up the excel file, added some formulas, and am working with a irl clannie of mine. we're making a scatterchart of all the DPM and graphing it out against their TL.

for weapon damage, we're doing the minimum range+max range/2. for total Damage per min, we're multiplying the damage by the tooltips shot freq.

I want to get multiple datapoints of each gun/spell so we can have more data but...right now i'm getting exactly the pc or rc or apu, etc, as well as TC and focus. (for pistols, is 122, for rifles, 123, 147 for apu's, haven't gotten to cannons yet) for apus, its 50 psi use, and for everyone else, its 50 weap lore. once we get a baseline of damage on the camel, graph em out, and we can see which guns are underperforming.

whee! excel spreadsheet time! it's like i'm playing EVE all over again!

Artricia.
13-06-14, 12:13
12351
so here's me going through all the APU spells, kinda interesting! ill be trying to graph the data tomorrow...sleep.. /yawn




edit: btw, i couldn't find the cleaning fire spell, so it's blank. and yes, i checked the quest items vendor, and the regular vendor and all dat, but couldn't find it. maybe im being blind again! no idea.

double edit: oh also here's the pistol data i did, little more cleaned up
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Massaker
13-06-14, 18:31
12353
I love community crafted tools! I want to see more!

As for the current state of the APU: the reason for the damage output being far too low has been identified. The statemachine (the thingy controlling different phases of casting) is not using correct timings. This statemachine will be reimplemented throughout the weekend (hopefully that time suffices) and be patched to Vedeena right afterwards for testing.

OK this is one improvement for the APU damage. But there is one big problem too.

Please look in the APU spell description for intance the Holy PSI Attack, the Holy Energy Beam and the Holy Lightning.

Skills with implants and PA:
PSI use: 170
Passive PSI use: 179
Focussing: 115
Psi power: 80

I tested this on the droms but this doesn't matter.

Holy PSI Attack:
Techlevel: 71
Damage: 157% (force damage 84)
Frequency: 81 shots/minute
PSI energy cost: 14
How many shots until PSI energy is empty : 60

Holy Energy Beam:
Techlevel: 84
Damage: 150% (energy 111)
Frequency: 67 shots/minute
PSI energy cost: 37
How many shots until PSI energy is empty : 16

Holy Lightning:
Techlevel: 101
Damage: 140% (energy 122)
Frequency: 67 shots/minute
PSI energy cost: 57
How many shots until PSI energy is empty : 9


So this mean that you can cast much more times with the Holy PSI attack and you do more damage over the time.
Of course if you have PSI 71 you have not so much PSI energy but to use a TL 101 shouldn't have so much PSI consumption and this is an disadvantage which will make this spell uninteresting for use.


One more thing: The Holy Frostration damage is implausible. It makes 8 fire and 32 energy damage. Compared with the Holy Lightning the spell makes 82 less damage.

arthego
14-06-14, 02:36
I can confirm Massaker's findings and also add that Holy Psi attack also has better range then Holy Lightning and Holy Energy beam.

I'm working with Artricia to to build out charts for the different weapon classes. Right now with what we're finding I totally see why balancing has been an issue. We're still compiling the data but at this point I think some house cleaning needs to be done before anyone should even be comparing different weapon classes. Massaker's above post should be enough evidence for now.

My proposal:
1. Normalize each weapon class. (there are tons of over and under powered weapons in each group that make no sense)
2. Normalize range and damage. (once weapon damage scales correctly in each weapon class, range is the next point of concern from what I can see sofar)
3. Normalize weapons across all classes. (By this point we have a solid foundation to work with and can hope to actually start balancing things across weapon classes)

Requirements to do this:
1. Consistent data for all weapons across all classes. (Artricia and I have structured our testing plan to meet this)
2. Easy to understand data (this is what I'm working on and hopefully it will allow people to see our concerns clearly)
3. Patience (this goes without saying =P)

I just started working on the testing here so if I'm reinforcing what others have said then good we know there is an issue. =D Or mention other concerns you feel should be looked into.

Data will have to be recollected after each patch depending on changes.

arthego
14-06-14, 06:58
Would it be possible to reformat the log, so that current stats show up as well(combat stats)? Also if each damage info report showed on 1 line separated by commas would make the full log easy to import into excel... having an issue accounting for DmgFac on psi spells, making the file easy to import would simplify data collection and we could calculate distributions from large samples easily...

Basically, is it possible to have the log modified to help automate data recording? Would be much simpler then any other method and would help ensure that everyone was consistent with their data. All they'd have to do is post the log file.

If a list of the WeaponID translations were posted then we be good. Could even calculate real DPM and check that frequencies are correct with the time stamps. blah blah blah.

Any line formatted like "WeaponID 1875, DmgID 1525, DmgFac 1.015, Energy 101.499, Effect 0.000, Height 45.000" no matter how long would be pretty simple to import into excel.

Making the first line the titles of the columns would even be simpler...

WeaponID, DmgID, DmgFac, Energy, Effect, Height
1875, 1525, 1.015, 101.499, 0.000, 45.000
1875, 1525, 1.042, 104.245, 0.000, 45.000
1875, 1525, 1.021, 102.087, 0.000, 45.000
1875, 1525, 1.024, 102.381, 0.000, 45.000

AlvaroT
14-06-14, 07:07
What are your plans to do with freezers, Alduin?

Massaker
14-06-14, 12:04
What are your plans to do with freezers, Alduin?

I think Zoltan is against the freezers so they will only do damage and don't stick you on the ground any more ;-)


I did a few tests and this is what I collected so far.
I compare the plasma weapons of the Tank and I found out that the plasma cannons with a higher TL do less damage as the plasma waves with a lower TL.

Please see the screenshots below.

12354


The Tangent Plasma Cannon do 52 damage with a single shot and the Tangent Plasma Wave do 97 damage with a single shot.
If you now calculate the damage in one minute you will get the following values:

Tangent Plasma Cannon: 9204 damage/minute (pure energy) TL 84
Tangent Plasma Wave: 10670 damage/minute (pure energy) TL 81


If you now do the same with the CS and Ravager it looks like this:
The CS do 58 damage with a single shot and the Ravager do 104 damage with a single shot. Remember - pure energy and no mod damage.

12355

So if you calculate the damage in a minute you get the following values.

CS: 10266 damage/minute (pure energy) TL 105
Ravager: 11649 damage/minute (pure energy) TL 101


Next I tested the Ravager and CS while shooting on the droms at the shooting range and warbots at the battle dome.
The drom test: The droms don't have any resists and armor so the damage is always the same.

CS vs. Droms

https://www.dropbox.com/s/bme94n1demm1l4y/Client%202014-06-14%2012-10-41-792.avi

Ravager vs. Droms

https://www.dropbox.com/s/qbh0qnwyvfzthpn/Client%202014-06-14%2012-11-44-450.avi

As you can see in the videos the drom got 107 damage by a single hit with the CS.
In the second video I used the Ravager and shot at the drom and one single hit was 209 damage.
If you calculate the damage per minute again you make 18030 damage with the CS and 22990 damage with the CS.

Next I tested both weapons with warbots.

CS vs. Warbot

https://www.dropbox.com/s/u98zytk2cumiay9/Client%202014-06-14%2012-18-23-813.avi

Ravager vs. Warbot

https://www.dropbox.com/s/ibs3pfjkqwpe0tu/Client%202014-06-14%2012-17-46-033.avi

As you can see in the first video the armor of the warbots got damaged and the damage of a single shot raised from 57 to 107.
Now the same with the ravager. The first single shot mak 105 damage and raised to 209.
If you only use the last damage value that can't raise up more you do 18939 damage in a minute with the CS and 23408 damage with the Ravager in a minute.


So the conclusion from this test is that the Plasma Waves with a lower TL have a great advantage against the Plasma Cannons with a higher TL.
But due to the damage/TL graph this shouldn't be like this.


EDIT: the quality is better if you download the files. The player of dropbox isn't so good

arthego
14-06-14, 20:05
The below charts show some of the inconsistency between TL and weapon performance. Massaker's post is evidence that this is a very broad issue. I'm just going into pistols for now.

Pistol - TL x DPM

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This chart shows Tech Level compared to the Damage Per Minute of every pistol. If there was a strong relationship between the two the chart would form an almost solid line from 0,0 to 18000,120. instead there is a very strong shotgun spread. Now to keep things interesting in the game, yeah there should probably be some spread but not the amount we have now. I've highlighted 2 data points a TL 25 Unlabeled Auto Pistol and a TL 102 Steiner FP10 these have a difference in DPM of only 400 but a TL spread of 77.
Basically anything along the same horizontal path shares similar DPM but very different TL. This needs to be normalized to a point that satisfies having enough variation to keep things interesting but also make it possible to try and balance. This is just an example of pistols this is an issue with all weapon types though. We can't hope to balance the game with this much variance.

Pistol - Range x DPM

12357

Now it has been awhile but I think that KK always said range and damage were related in an inverse relationship across weapon class aka high damage output means lower range. I believe there were talking about cannon vs pistols vs rifle type situtations but again how can you hope to balance that when even among a single weapon class you don't have any relationship. Range equals safety and that you can take time in killing your target. I hate the idea of this cause I want an all in one weapon but lets be honest. With long range you'd have low damage but your not getting hit, yeah it's going to take a little longer but your not gonna die. In close combat (largely PvP) you would switch to something with shorter range to meet your needs for that type of combat and be rewarded with higher damage. This in itself would allow much more variability in what weapons people choose to use.
Basically once TL x DPM is normalized we could approach this issue with Range x DPM.

Cross Weapon Type Balance

Once all the types have been cleaned up and feel good then we can for the first time actually start to balance cannons vs apu vs pistols vs melee etc.

Alduin
14-06-14, 20:26
The freezer weapons will be touched in phase two. They will regain their freeze effect, same for the para spells.

@ Arthego: can you please check the number of shots in a burst for the weapons above the average line you depicted in your tl vs dpm graph? I would guess that those are all burst weapons, right?

Alduin
15-06-14, 00:39
Just a quick update: inspired by arthego's post, I found the source of the error for the discrepancy: there is an error in the updated frequency calculation in Neocron's info window. To approximately correct for it divide the effective frequency by the number of shots in a burst of a weapon (this is not exact!). Already fixed in my dev build, next APU spells...

Massaker
15-06-14, 19:16
The freezer weapons will be touched in phase two. They will regain their freeze effect, same for the para spells.

@ Arthego: can you please check the number of shots in a burst for the weapons above the average line you depicted in your tl vs dpm graph? I would guess that those are all burst weapons, right?

What exactly is phase two?

Trivaldi
15-06-14, 20:05
What exactly is phase two?https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/KtpxZnFArmXv7LZTYdn9nv0_xIF62se2IDanfLjgTJSUNf9R_QWHGm-IlGXTBFcDuKxOOBIPNkcm6CtcWgddNg9CmfqQ1XPxPahiaRILGKCR3XF4GWdhFLcHhA

jj dynomite
15-06-14, 20:24
^^^^This, my friends. This.

Artricia.
15-06-14, 22:08
Just a quick update: inspired by arthego's post, I found the source of the error for the discrepancy: there is an error in the updated frequency calculation in Neocron's info window. To approximately correct for it divide the effective frequency by the number of shots in a burst of a weapon (this is not exact!). Already fixed in my dev build, next APU spells...


Ahhh, that explains a lot then! I suppose i will wait to do HC and rifles until the fix is pushed out on vedeena

Artricia.
16-06-14, 01:30
12358

hmm so this is the test results for the HC (i couldn't wait for dev patch, so sue me!)

couldn't get a few weapons (too lazy to reroll a tg and a ca tank, maybe later, also couldn't find f12 flamer or creed or ionic cannon on the test, if anyone knows where they are, it would be appreciated. also didn't do the vehicle launchers cuz well...droms aren't gonna give accurate results, lol)


calculating weapon damage (since weapons are potentially DOT in HC) is (max+min)/2+DOT. DPM is weapon damage * burst multiplier * shot freq. (Correct me if i'm wrong, i think that's the correct formula)


HC and TC is exact lowest needed for tl 115 cannon( 123, and 89 respectively), 50 weaplore and 95 agil, just like on my pistol tests, for the sake of comparison.

Drachenpaladin
16-06-14, 01:52
There are special traders for about ANY kind of item... you just have to look carefully. The FSM NPCs btw have no faction check... as their aimbox description reads afaik. So you can shop free away whatever you need.
Same goes for jones mission items and other dungeon drops.


Only exception are GM spans prolly... and then you could still ask a GM in the IRC to help you out.

Artricia.
16-06-14, 02:11
There are special traders for about ANY kind of item... you just have to look carefully. The FSM NPCs btw have no faction check... as their aimbox description reads afaik. So you can shop free away whatever you need.
Same goes for jones mission items and other dungeon drops.


Only exception are GM spans prolly... and then you could still ask a GM in the IRC to help you out.

ahh word. yeah checked the npcs....the f12 flamer is mr jones, but when i checked the quest items npc...not there. creed is a rare gun, not in with all the other guns (ran into not finding the slasher, but it was there, i scrolled through at least 5 times) ionic cannon same deal. yeah i think i may ask a gm to spawn those. i wonder if we can get a test vehicle inside the shooting range that will respawn....would be nice to test out the vehicle weapons....would need to check logs for damage though

Artricia.
16-06-14, 03:54
12359

and here's the test data so far for rifles! for the sake of comparison with the pistols, i tested it with 121 RC skill, then 122 and 123 for the weapons that required it. that way it matched up with my earlier tests with pistols.

Drachenpaladin
16-06-14, 04:27
Ionic weapons are with the Hacknet Stuff... because... hacknet stuff.
And i'm fairly sure that the Creed is with the rare dude, maybe with a different one but definitely with a rare dude.

Artricia.
16-06-14, 04:34
ahh hacknet, makes sense....and found the creed. thanks.

arthego
17-06-14, 16:29
Just a quick update: inspired by arthego's post, I found the source of the error for the discrepancy: there is an error in the updated frequency calculation in Neocron's info window. To approximately correct for it divide the effective frequency by the number of shots in a burst of a weapon (this is not exact!). Already fixed in my dev build, next APU spells...

Thank you for looking into this! I'm curious just how many weird things have been buried in the code over the years.

OK, here are updated charts based on the new equation. (freq/burst)*dmg=DPM

TLxDPM new equation
12360
This is with the new equation, I left the tags on my previous examples. Though there is still a shotgun effect it is much improved and we have hopefully solved an issue that will help us move forward faster with all weps!

DPM x Burst count
12362
This is before the new equation.

12361
This is after the new equation.

APU
Everyone, when testing APU please be aware that there is a damage modifier that randomizes the damage. If you look in the log you can find the variable (I'd look up the name but I have to head to work) you should be able to calculate true damage using it.

Massaker
19-06-14, 01:01
Just a quick update: inspired by arthego's post, I found the source of the error for the discrepancy: there is an error in the updated frequency calculation in Neocron's info window. To approximately correct for it divide the effective frequency by the number of shots in a burst of a weapon (this is not exact!). Already fixed in my dev build, next APU spells...

Do you have any update for us? Sorry for asking but I'm excited to test the fixed version ;-)

arthego
19-06-14, 08:42
Alduin, is there anything specific you would like to accomplish before the next patch that we can help with?

For now though....here's the current state with data available both with and without the freq correction. APU is not included as the damage randomization makes our current data untrustworthy.

Current weapon state as the game shows

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Weapon state with temp fix

12364

Can anyone give there opinions on what chart seems more "right" atm?

Alduin
19-06-14, 11:22
Alduin, is there anything specific you would like to accomplish before the next patch that we can help with?

For now though....here's the current state with data available both with and without the freq correction. APU is not included as the damage randomization makes our current data untrustworthy.

Current weapon state as the game shows

12363

Weapon state with temp fix

12364

Can anyone give there opinions on what chart seems more "right" atm?

Are the weapons in the chart sorted by their techlevel or solely by their dpm?

As for testing: a quick test heals would be good: are all heals (tools, psi spells, med kits) doing apropriate healing? Please in that case also state your definition of apropriate ;)


Do you have any update for us? Sorry for asking but I'm excited to test the fixed version ;-)

The issue with high frequency apu spells has been identified and a fix is currently being tested on our internal development server. Looking good so far. I just need to tidy everything up again and then it can be pushed to Vedeena.

There are two other important things which will change with the next patch to Vedeena:
* psi consumption: it will be based on the tl of the spell and its frequency (maybe something similar will also be put in place for other weapons)
* health pool: considering the reduced damage output of mobs as well as of players, the player's health pool is just far too large, therefore it will be reduced by something between 25% and 50%

Dropout
19-06-14, 12:29
* health pool: considering the reduced damage output of mobs as well as of players, the player's health pool is just far too large, therefore it will be reduced by something between 25% and 50%
Quick question: Will the mobs' health pool be lowered aswell? (or have it been lowered already? Sorry I havent had the time, to get on the testserver in a while).

Or will PvE get even more tedious than it already is?

Torg
19-06-14, 15:05
Or will PvE get even more tedious than it already is?speaking of which: PvE has gotten somewhat boring over time. in NC 1 you could be killed by small spiders. not so today. rarepart (and MC5) farming has become a peaceful and somewhat lowbrow activity. theres no more challenge in PvE, am i right? what can we do to rebalance that?

Alduin
19-06-14, 16:24
Quick question: Will the mobs' health pool be lowered aswell? (or have it been lowered already? Sorry I havent had the time, to get on the testserver in a while).

Or will PvE get even more tedious than it already is?

No, instead we doubled the damage you deal towards mobs, so you do twice the damage to mobs than you do to players.


speaking of which: PvE has gotten somewhat boring over time. in NC 1 you could be killed by small spiders. not so today. rarepart (and MC5) farming has become a peaceful and somewhat lowbrow activity. theres no more challenge in PvE, am i right? what can we do to rebalance that?

First of all we need more "content" for leveling in my opinion (there are plenty of grinding spots, but only very few actual missions). The player should have the choice to do either grinding or mission running. However, sadly we do not (yet) have the means to automagically create missions or even mission chains. We need to implement every mission hand by hand and go through a lot of files usually to make them work. However we are working hard to improve that process and therefore faciliate content development.

The concept of rareparts and the way they are currently obtained has also to be rethought. The current situation is obviously far from optimal, but first of all we have to take the first step towards a better PvP/weapon balance. The new balance will probably also reviel further problems with PvE, but that remains to be seen soon(TM).

Massaker
19-06-14, 21:21
Are the weapons in the chart sorted by their techlevel or solely by their dpm?

As for testing: a quick test heals would be good: are all heals (tools, psi spells, med kits) doing apropriate healing? Please in that case also state your definition of apropriate ;)



To give an appropriate isn't easy if we don't know the final health pool and weapon damage ;)

OK I made the tests of all heal spells and the nanite tools. Hope it will help you Alduin

- single heals
- heal sanctums
- goup heals
- nanite tools
- medikits

All values are from the damage-log file and only the last value. So the damage factor isn't in the value of the excel file.
For instance:

DAMAGEINFO - Time 3561.077 Damage (Massaker): WeaponID 620, DmgID 2250, DmgFac -0.188, Energy -18.790, Effect 0.000, Height 75.000
DamageCause: Injector!
DamageType: Direct!
INS - FUL: -18.790


Here is the excel sheet: Heals-vedeenatest-6-19-2014.xlsx (https://www.dropbox.com/s/8ebw49bikqxvp8p/Heals-vedeenatest-6-19-2014.xlsx?dl=1)

@arthego: I hope you are not angry that I used your excel sheet ;)

Artricia.
20-06-14, 00:12
nice massaker! good info there. you can really see a big boost on hp per tick on titan!

arthego
20-06-14, 04:24
Alduin, you are correct my most recent charts are simply sorted by weapon class then DPM. Wanted TL also but started to get messy as some of the TL's didn't want to display correctly due to value duplication between weapon classes. However I know it is nice to be able to see TL right there so here you go in case you wanted it. Just note that some TL values don't show but it should give a better feel for the spread through TL.

Without Burst Fix

12365

With Burst Fix

12366

Massaker, Grrrr, so angry! :mad: TBH Artricia, actually started the spreadsheets. I just modified them so I could work with them better. Art has also done ALL the heavy lifting as far as collection goes, I just try to make it easy to interpret :D Feel free to use them however you like, they are totally open! The more usable data we have the better.

Heals

12367

For heals should we also collect the total heal value and length/time it takes? or is that already known?

arthego
20-06-14, 04:33
Oh another thing..... is it possible to add a Screen Shot command to the game? :angel:

Could help make it easier to capture bugs simply because some people are lazy and don't want to have to open paint. Would also make it easier to gloat over PVP conquests and other silly things the community might want to do.

Drachenpaladin
20-06-14, 05:03
Iirc you can make screenshots with F10 or F12, not sure anymore. They DO however show up in the "shots" folder of your NC install directory.

arthego
20-06-14, 06:04
Iirc you can make screenshots with F10 or F12, not sure anymore. They DO however show up in the "shots" folder of your NC install directory.

And there they are! thanks!

Trivaldi
20-06-14, 10:24
oh another thing..... Is it possible to add a screen shot command to the game? :angel:


iirc you can make screenshots with f10 or f12, not sure anymore. They do however show up in the "shots" folder of your nc install directory.
Just to clarify for others reading, it's F12 :)

Massaker
20-06-14, 11:15
Is there anything else we can test? C'mon give us some work :D


I checked the Anti Vehicle Rocket Launcher and the Anti Air Rocket Launcher. The Anti Air Rocket Launchers (normal and advanced) are brocken. After the shot no rocket left the launcher and flew to the Doy Hovercarrier. Maybe the Anti Air Rocket Launcher will only hit flying targets. But as I got the hovercarrier into the air there is also no rocket visible :(

The Anti Vehicle Rocket Launchers (normal and advanced) do too less damage. Both were shot on a NEXT Rhino4x4 Chaincraft v.2 and the Rhino lost hardly hitpoints.

Here the skills of my Tank
Heavy Combat: 195
Hightech Combat: 89
Weapon Lore: 90

I highlighted the values red that are responsible for the damage for the Rhino. Regarding to the hitpoint that a Rhino has the damage is too low. If you shot on a player only the force damage reduce the hp, not the vhc damage. So can the vhc value be increased?


Value of the anti vehicle rocket launcher

TL: 64
Str: 64
HC: 95

DAMAGEINFO - Time 1961.924 Damage (Massaker): WeaponID 1021, DmgID 754, DmgFac 1.200, Energy 120.000, Effect 0.000, Height 0.000
DamageCause: Heavy!
DamageType: Area!
INS - FCR: 24.000
INS - VHC: 96.000



Value of the advancd anti vehicle rocket launcher

TL: 98
Str: 89
HC: 109

DAMAGEINFO - Time 591.729 Damage (Massaker): WeaponID 1022, DmgID 754, DmgFac 1.400, Energy 140.000, Effect 0.000, Height 0.000
DamageCause: Heavy!
DamageType: Area!
INS - FCR: 28.000
INS - VHC: 112.000

Trivaldi
20-06-14, 11:40
Is there anything else we can test? C'mon give us some work :D
Well then... since you asked so nicely ;)

Obviously balance is a huge focus for both us and the community, however there were some other changes in the original test patch! Any feedback or bugs found with those changes are also important, so if you find any please let us know! The changes I speak of are those listed at the bottom of the patch notes post (http://forum.neocron-game.com/showthread.php?155324-R-186-T-186-T-195-Patch-Notes) as part of the Patch Notes R#186 - T#186 section. Those should give you something to do while Alduin cooks up more balance fun. ;) :)

Alduin
20-06-14, 12:56
Is there anything else we can test? C'mon give us some work :D


Another important thing to test is: leveling. After all we do not want to make it harder/spoil the fun for newcomers or returning veterans once the balancing patch is out. The low level leveling should after all still be enjoyable, same of course for mid level leveling. So creating a few noob chars and leveling a few levels in MC5 and a few in the city would be nice :) (oh and maybe then get involved in the discussions on how to improve the noob experience in the brainport would just be 1337 ;) )

\\Fényx//
20-06-14, 19:32
Ive got a fair bit of free time now. working 3 nights a week i have 4 days off a week which is nice. Ill get the test server installed again and go through the fresh player start without any help as such. I'll look at blogging it, suggestions etc, and see if some old ideas would still be beneficial.

Out of curiosity, is there any plans on dumping the decimal system ? its honestly a pain in the fricken ass, cant we just go back pre 2.2 ? lol...

Alduin
22-06-14, 18:42
Concerning the MC5 newbie area, Torg opened up a new thread here (http://forum.neocron-game.com/showthread.php?155642-Re-Use-of-the-MC5-newbie-area) please discuss a revamp of the MC5 area there. There are also other good threads on that topic already on the brainport, please try to include them in your discussion. As for this thread, please try to focus only on the question whether the mobs in the corrsponding level ranges became far easier/far harder than before.

T#196 Release Candidate Five has been Released!
I would call this the first all in all feature complete release candidate. Please test all classes versus all classes, please do some group pvp, please let me know your feelings. By no means will everything be perfect, but it should be at least an improvement compared to the current state on Titan. The decimal system on implants will be removed later on. This will be only the first step in many to rebalance everything. The future iterations will not take that long and will be delivered in smaller packages, faster. So remember, this is only phase one. The work on the future phases will be defined/outlined once this phase hits Titan and we see how it works out.

Slauncha,
Alduin

Massaker
22-06-14, 20:44
The Holy Frostration damage is still broken.

The PPU spells like Holy Absorption, Holy Protection and Holy Deflection cost now 180 energy?!? I can't cast them on myself (only on others).
The Holy Heal costs 4 PSI energy?
The Crahn Ressurrection costs 1246 PSI energy?? (HOLY SHIT!!)

12368

The PSI consumption calculation don't work correct. I can cast the Holy Lighthing more than 40 times until I need a PSI booster.

The resist calculations seems to be buggy. After der HP reduction my APU get more damage as before with the same resist setup

slith
22-06-14, 21:21
Overall player hitpoints have been lowered by 1/3 to compensate for the lower PvP damage

The resist calculations seems to be buggy. After der HP reduction my APU get more damage as before with the same resist setup
As hitpoints and resists are heavily tied together (and havent been untied yet - as I asked to do before doing any changes to resists/health/armor...) this makes fights very, very fast usually. Unbuffed people die in 2 to 3 hits. Why would you lower peoples health anyways? Fight duration on Vedeena was perfect as is.





Nobody can use the resurrection anymore, I guess even gamemasters cant reach the required psi energy pool. Casting any PPU spell on self does not work. Any testing of class vs class pvp is impossible atm.

Alduin
23-06-14, 08:39
Hotfix will come soon(TM). It will also remove the range dependence of the Devourer-like, the Ray of God-like and the Lightbringer-like weapons. This dependence will be reconsidered later on but for now it is just hindering us.

Trivaldi
23-06-14, 21:20
FYI I reshuffled a few posts and moved them into their own thread (http://forum.neocron-game.com/showthread.php?155644-SPLIT-Newbie-Discussion) regarding the newbie experience.

arthego
23-06-14, 21:33
I was only able to hop on for 30 min so not true testing yet. My initial feelings, APU has been much improved. It is possible to actually cast at the frequency rate and Psi cost seems much more appropriate when compared to how guns work. No glitchy animation or cast stutters. Also damage seems to match the TL of the spell.

I hope to hop on soon to actually start collecting data.
Also currious to check on their survivability.

arthego
24-06-14, 06:39
About 40% done with APU spells noted 2 strange things.

1. All AOE spells with DOT (fire and poison) all do 56-55 damage per tick no matter what TL even though the item info gives different values like:

TL 65 Crahn Blessed Fire Barrel says 48 fire damage
and
TL 89 Crahn Holy Fire Barrel says 89 fire damage

Despite the TL and damage suggested by the tool tip both do 55-56 damage each time. Is this a bug?

So far the difference in frequency seems to be keeping the damage curve in line, it just seems strange.

2. Some spells that say they take 1 psi to cast don't take any psi from your pool. Noticed this when i made a new char, was nice for lvling. :)

Alduin
24-06-14, 23:19
Release Candidate Six has been released!
This should fix the issues introduced by the last patch. In addition the range dependent effects on weapons have been removed for now, they will be reconsidered throughout phase two or later. The original value for hitpoints has been restored and the best: self buffing should work again. The gigantic psi consumption of some spells should also be fixed.

The holy frostration, as well as all other para spells will not be touched throughout phase one anymore, so it is fine if weapons which are supposed to freeze/stun are not doing enough damage.

I will look into barallels again soon. However I need you guys to look further into PvP and also into drones.

Slauncha,
Alduin

Massaker
24-06-14, 23:56
The PSI consumption of APU/PPU spells look quite normal but the PSI consumption of the buffs are really high. After buffing one player completely I need a PSI booster now ;) On Titan I can buff two players and the third player need a psi booster for the resists.

For instance:

Holy Resist Buffs
Titan -> 61
Vedeena -> 137

Holy Combat Buffs
Titan -> 61
Vedeena -> 137

Holy Support Buffs
Titan -> 61
Vedeena -> 137

The PSI consumption of the group spells look fair for me.

The damage of the Devourer is a little bit too high. A ful buffed PPU get down with 12 shots and the stacks of poison. Maybe the damage could be lowered by 5%? The clip size of the Devourer is quite too big. A size of 20 should be enough.

Dasore
25-06-14, 11:09
Drones like the GAL/Plasma and Particles do too much dmg, around 90 on player per shot. Rator doesnt do any dmg.
35 heal per tick on a ppu is a bit too weak, i cant even counterheal any weapon above tl 70 with shields.
Melee tank pvp dmg seems too high, no aim, insane range and no speed malus.

Some weapons like plasmapistols/rifles do like no dmg to shielded players and against unshielded they rip ya in pieces.
Pulslaser Rifles like Disruptor scale too much with riflecombat, at around 200 riflecombat the dmg is okay, but as soon as you reach 250 it does way too much

Dasore
25-06-14, 11:43
Alduin can we just all meet on Vedeena at a certain time and talk bout whats wrong/needs changes? Would be much easier for all of us to exatly find out whats still bugged or what people think needs to be changed.

Nerf the Speedmalus when legs broken....

Bragi
25-06-14, 20:30
Some weapons like plasmapistols/rifles do like no dmg to shielded players and against unshielded they rip ya in pieces.
Could we get some numbers?


Pulslaser Rifles like Disruptor scale too much with riflecombat, at around 200 riflecombat the dmg is okay, but as soon as you reach 250 it does way too much
Is this isolated to just pulse lasers?

Again some numbers would be good. Especially with a different weapon of similar TL and the same subskill values.
Also, was this against a healing char? One possible issue with the way heals work is that they reduce DPM by a fixed amount, rather than a proportion like shields do.

Eg. Lets say you are healing at 5 dps. A weapon does 6 dps. You increase your skills and are now doing 7 dps. The effective dps has doubled. A constructed example, but you can see that the proportions can get skewed.
It also presents a problem for low-dpm/high-resist players compared to high-dpm/low-resist ones as the former may simply be unable to hurt someone or just far too ineffective to bother with.

But all of that is a separate issue.

The shape of the subskill-to-performance curve is something we want to look at. At least in the highlighted case above sub-skills are having a noticeable impact - unlike on retail. A change of 50 is a lot though.

Powerpunsh
27-06-14, 17:25
Just made a short PVE run on my HC Tank to check weapondamage in PVE. You cut it pretty half. :p

Weapon: Ravager radio modded
Victim: Hopper
Retailserver
-Damage: 285
-Frequency: 100/min

Testserver
-Damage 205
-Frequency: fixed at 56/min

Damage is way too low in my opinion. I know you want to get rare and nonrare closer to each other in PVP but in PVE it should still be an advantage so carry high DPS weapons to reach WoC in a proper time. :)

Alduin
30-06-14, 15:16
In general, since my availability online varies a lot lately (I am moving), I need as much information on the forums as possible. Youtube videos would also be great to demonstrate things.

Massaker
01-07-14, 18:42
It's really sad that only a dozen of people are activily testing and giving feedback.
What about the rest of the community?
I already hear the voices that say: "this is not the balancing that I agree with". And this are the people who think: "let them do what they want. It will be the same crap as in the latest deployed balancing".
But there will be any changes if you don't start to test. So c'mon get on the test server and try to level a new charakter, fight each other or go in the high level caves :)

At the moment there is not much time for me to test because there is too many work in the company on my desk. If I have more time I'll continue the testing ;)

Drachenpaladin
01-07-14, 19:06
It's really sad that only a dozen of people are activily testing and giving feedback.
What about the rest of the community?
I already hear the voices that say: "this is not the balancing that I agree with". And this are the people who think: "let them do what they want. It will be the same crap as in the latest deployed balancing".
But there will be any changes if you don't start to test. So c'mon get on the test server and try to level a new charakter, fight each other or go in the high level caves :)

QFT! Verily!

Dasore
01-07-14, 21:12
Its really sad when you wait on the testserver for someone to log and try something out.

95% of the com i ask on titan to test something with me on vedenna just tells me to fuck off cause they say the devs will not change what they want
4% log on the testserver, kills 1 or 2 mobs, flames afterwards ingame that everything is shit and why they change it that way and not that.... but dont want to write something in the forums. falk you will know who i m talking bout for example ;)

and then there is 1 last percent of the com that logs on the server from time to time and also tests something, writes down what they think on the forums.

I also didnt do much testing the last week cause i had much to do, and it looks like none else did either

Alduin
01-07-14, 22:19
On the melee side of things: so if I got it correctly, it looks like melee weapons are far too easy to aim and therefore the "effective" dpm is relatively high, right?

I got two proposals: the first would be to "just" lower the overall dpm of melee weapons to be equal to HC weapons or a few percent below that. The second one would be to introduce an aiming correction similar to the APU. What do you guys think?

jj dynomite
02-07-14, 00:33
On the melee side of things: so if I got it correctly, it looks like melee weapons are far too easy to aim and therefore the "effective" dpm is relatively high, right?

I got two proposals: the first would be to "just" lower the overall dpm of melee weapons to be equal to HC weapons or a few percent below that. The second one would be to introduce an aiming correction similar to the APU. What do you guys think?

It makes sense to have an overall weaker but a guaranteed hit when it comes to melee.Give the runner a reason to actually run in to PVP with their sword drawn.

Artricia.
02-07-14, 00:57
been testing out the drones damage. check it out.

kept RCL to 147, to keep inline with some apu testing i've been doing with arthego. had to adjust the willpower from 87 to 89 on the higher end drones though.

also keep in mind DPM is still a questionable formula.


12370


cheers guys!

Doc Holliday
02-07-14, 06:03
The second one would be to introduce an aiming correction similar to the APU. What do you guys think?

This one. Aiming reticle being forced to close would be akin to your opponent blocking, parrying or otherwise dodging to avoid an intended blow. The melee user has to aim and land his strike carefully. This is supposed to be a fight in a post apocalyptic world between two battle hardened combatants not two drunk chavs windmilling each other outside a kebab house in Middlesborough. ;)

Alduin
02-07-14, 08:16
been testing out the drones damage. check it out.

kept RCL to 147, to keep inline with some apu testing i've been doing with arthego. had to adjust the willpower from 87 to 89 on the higher end drones though.

also keep in mind DPM is still a questionable formula.


12370


cheers guys!
Hi atricia,

a bold +1 for all the data collected :) (forum mods would probably kill me for a huge +1 ;) ) This looks promising, in case you alter the dpm formula to be the correct one ;) It should be: =SUMMENPRODUKT(T2*K2) You do not need to multiply it by the burst count, because that is already "absorbed" in the tooltip's shot frequency. Only the raptor seems to be off by a considerably huge amount. The AoE drones are also not yet AoE corrected, which is weird. Have to investigate that.

Any other issues spotted so far?

Artricia.
02-07-14, 08:44
Hi atricia,

a bold +1 for all the data collected :) (forum mods would probably kill me for a huge +1 ;) ) This looks promising, in case you alter the dpm formula to be the correct one ;) It should be: =SUMMENPRODUKT(T2*K2) You do not need to multiply it by the burst count, because that is already "absorbed" in the tooltip's shot frequency. Only the raptor seems to be off by a considerably huge amount. The AoE drones are also not yet AoE corrected, which is weird. Have to investigate that.

Any other issues spotted so far?

hey alduin! thanks for the +1! woot!

I have adjusted my spreadsheet with the new DPM calculation......Thanks for the fix! Was never sure on shot freq taking burstrate into account...when i did that when i was testing the CS, the DPM on paper seemed low but the damage while testing seemed much higher. Maybe it was just bias, who knows?

Hmmm.... So. Few things i noticed.

1)The rocket drones seem better to aim but still pretty crazy. Are RGCs meant to always have better aiming? Not complaining, just curious.

2)With adjusted formula, the overal DPM on mosquito vs punisher....the mosquito is a full 25% more damage at equal TL.. Intended?

3)Devastator ion + Raging weasel. Devils breath + exp ion nuke. tech angels prototype ion + experimental ion blaster......all drones that are identical in both TL, range, damage, everything. Perhaps we could change one of the two on each pair, perhaps make a new drone type? or maybe make one do higher damage at lower shot freq? Seems like a waste to have 2 different drones do the same damage, just my opinion though!

4) kami's blast radius seemed a bit small, perhaps a slight buff?

5) the weapon range on alllllllll of the drones is super short. Like damn. A drone that could outrange and therefore take on warbots would be awesome, but maybe could be asking for too much.

6)All in all the drones seem to fairly scale in damage fairly evenly minus the raptor. Good stuff!

Artricia.
02-07-14, 22:29
retested raptor..false alarm, doing 41 damage per shot now....in line with other drones. my bad!

arthego
02-07-14, 22:30
Yay, just got back from vacation. Gonna try to finish up my APU data and get that up. :)

Not sure that drones should be able to out range things to much their already low risk to the user.

Artricia.
03-07-14, 11:37
soooo..... me and and arthego decided to test out some pvp on vedeena....trying out the uberest of the uber OP builds.


http://youtu.be/9aKEOfZqALQ

Alduin
03-07-14, 14:54
soooo..... me and and arthego decided to test out some pvp on vedeena....trying out the uberest of the uber OP builds.


http://youtu.be/9aKEOfZqALQ

Yay! Moooore of these! So melee is overpowered compared to other weapons?

Ascension
03-07-14, 16:20
I've just logged on to test the APU, It appears that if you hold click in the shooting range there is an issue with looping actions and miscasting/zero damage.

This can be replicated by targeting and holding your mouse button down.

Artricia.
03-07-14, 21:25
Yay! Moooore of these! So melee is overpowered compared to other weapons?

haha! glad you like. Hmmm, honestly that wasn't a fair match, i think he had some junk knife and i had a paw of tiger xD. But hmmm, i wouldn't say so. We did another match (and shadowplay was being a bitch and wasn't working so i couldn't cap it) with a apu and my melee pe, and my melee pe won....


so i would say vs apu, it could actually be viable. vs anything else in a 1v1? still pretty nerfed. who knows though, perhaps with a tl 115 devils grace...




Glad you like the vids though! Gonna pop out some more of these and a bit more balanced. If i can coax a few more on test i'd like to setup a mock op fight, preferably we could cap it on multiple POVs.

Cheers!

arthego
03-07-14, 23:18
I've just logged on to test the APU, It appears that if you hold click in the shooting range there is an issue with looping actions and miscasting/zero damage.

This can be replicated by targeting and holding your mouse button down.

I wasn't able to replicate this issue. The only thing I found was audio stacking and missing animation frames due to cast speed. Is it possible some of your stats were to low and the spell was genuinely casting poorly?

Freq 81 = 0.74 casts a second, each damage tick can be seen appearing at this speed, hand seems to stutter due to lack of time for animation but all damage is dealt and appears on screen.
Freq 67 = 0.98 casts a second, each damage tick can be seen appearing at this speed, hand animates more as you would expect.


http://youtu.be/WirU3d7Qtk4

arthego
04-07-14, 23:03
He's an explination why my APU data table is taking longer then expected :p

OK, looks like with release candidate 6 there was a 2x multiplier added to the cost of psi spells. If this was to help fix the issue of low end spells being free, it didn't work and it would be awesome if we could go back :P watch the below video.

The Tl 2 Crahn Energy Bolt costs 2 psi but never takes anything from your pool (not shown in video). The TL Crahn Energy Ball takes 6 psi to cast but only takes from your pool every other cast (shown in video).

I haven't figured out the full pattern to this issue but believe it may have to do with a rounding issue in the formula. This would explain why it has no effect on higher cost spells but a dramatic impact on low cost spells.

Example of my theory

/conspiracy (explanation at the end I promise)

If Tl 2 Crahn Energy Bolt Cost = 0.3 psi (this is the true value in the game) then this is rounded so it can be displayed as a whole number 0. The game rounds up so it displays 1 due to a min cast requirement then the new 2x multiplier kicks in making it show 2 (no further rounding due to no decimal value) cost while the game still sees 0.6 psi cost resulting in no Psi ever being removed from the pool. This would be the result of 2 different variables being used 1 to display the value while one is the true in game value. (this would not surprise me there was a similar issue with burst frequency not displaying correctly with guns)

How do I feel this happened?

I don't think this was ever an issue in the past but once implants started using decimals I think it showed up (or maybe it's always been there I cant see the code to check :rolleyes:). This is were things get weird in my conspiracy theory! :wtf: All psi spells check to see if you have Psi Amp +1, is it possible that this is referring to the implant itself. The reason I wonder this is the gauntlet gives you Psi Abilities Level +1 (it displays this way on both the glove info and your imp bonus listing) but the spells check for Psi Amp +1. If spells are actually checking against the imp is it possible that the spells are actually using decimal values (I don't know what variable values are in the code or how it's structured) after that transition was made in the game? This would be an issue because everything surrounding them doesn't use decimals and doesn't display them thus where this rounding issue may be coming from.

/Conspiracy mode

OK, I know all this may sound crazy and a bit to take in but bottom line.

1. Adding the 2x multiplier didn't fix anything except make psi uneven to guns. Psi have to use skill point to increase their Psi pool no other class has to do this (at Psi 100 with 100 ppw and 100 psu your psi pool is 374). Cannons typically have 60 (plasma wave) to 30 (Ray Gun Ammo), that comes out to 45 shot prior to reloading average. Math time, what would a psi's pool need to be to cast 45 times without reloading. 31*45=1395 psi pool. OK, now reloading takes time, psi boosters regen your psi quickly however they take quick slots that could be used for stam boosters, other spells, med kits, nanites. being as psi spells only really ever do 1 type of damage having a few available is a must. Anyway, back on topic.
As Psi cost was initially with the 197 patch 19*45=855 psi pool, this is still more then double what your actual psi pool is. I feel this was a fair balance, psi still have to reload more often but guns have more accuracy issues and typically longer range. Thus please reconsider turning the Psi cost back on spells.

2. Please look into the potential rounding issue. They are annoying and hard to spot but I really think this is the cause of the free low end spells and may be a part of the issue in the video. My theories on possible locations are above, basically are there 2 variables, 1 for true cost and 1 for displayed cost are either potentially rounding. Also could spells have been effected when imps started using decimals.



http://youtu.be/aGCzo4AHGwE

jj dynomite
15-07-14, 02:01
I'm going to be starting some testing up again and wanted to know if you guys would like testing to be done using capped stats or a tiered approach starting at the minimum requirement and moving stats up in set intervals?

Trivaldi
15-07-14, 09:57
I'm going to be starting some testing up again and wanted to know if you guys would like testing to be done using capped stats or a tiered approach starting at the minimum requirement and moving stats up in set intervals?
The second approach would be incredibly helpful. We need to make sure we've not skewed mob damage (dealing/receiving) too heavily through the levelling process. While we are going to rebalance PvE in the future, there is a chance the modifications we've made for PvP balance have made some mobs too strong and others too weak. While we expect some slight disruption to the current status quo, we obviously want to avoid any significant disruption to the PvE experience.

ancient
18-07-14, 06:52
not two drunk chavs windmilling each other outside a kebab house in Middlesborough.
Why did that comment make me think of Dan and his brother from Exl lmfao?

Bragi
18-07-14, 20:38
I'm going to be starting some testing up again and wanted to know if you guys would like testing to be done using capped stats or a tiered approach starting at the minimum requirement and moving stats up in set intervals?
Given our focus is on PvP, capped is what we need, but feel free; as Triv said, we will be looking at PvE and the leveling process at a later stage. We're also mostly interested in the DPM/sub-skill curve so we know how skills affect performance in a clearer manner before we start doing anything with armour and implants.