Recruit the Noobs

[BlueRobot]

I'm posting this because it's pretty boring on Titan right now. The only OP-fighting clans right now are we (17th) and the Tsunami Clan (Pricks/CA). There is lots of whining ingame and on the forums but little ingame action and I think this could easily be fixed by a few people taking responsibility and making a decent clan.

What i mean when i say "decent" ? People just want to play the game and have fun with their clan while playing the game. Don't start a toxic environment by flaming/whining/ninjaing after fights. Don't get super pissed of and don't play for a week after you loose a fight. Don't tell everyone you're the best PvPer on the server and if someone beats you they cheat/zerg/exploit. (Don't focus only on PvE. Every single member we had, that wanted to do only PvE left the game after they capped a few and got bored.)

Why do i think i need to say this? In the last weeks a lot of the veterans told me they were approached by smaller clans that are just trying to get some good PvPers to kick our ass (or the Tsu Clan's ass). But when i get asked what clans are actually joinable if you want to OP-fight, i can only say 17th or pricks/ca because none of the smaller clans actually try to OP-fight.
On the other hand I encountered a lot of unclanned guys who might not be the uber-PvP-veterans who were looking for a clan but coudn't find one. Those guys get rejected by clans that can't even OP-fight because they aren't considered good enough. And then there are tons of LEd guys running around, who you just have to talk to, help them out a bit and ask them if they want to play with your clan.

If you're not a complete douchebag you can have OPs from us and ask us for help with whatever.(You can even use our ts for the start)

tl;dr Make a new clan, recruit the guys who are noobs/just came back to the game.

[Manuel Moonez]

I think that's someone that most people can agree on. There are already some new clans, now make something guys!

[Doc Holliday]

We already got bored and quit. I say we as about 5 of us have gone to play APB reloaded for a pvp fix instead.

The toxicity existed on both sides during the time we tried fighting for ops as did the ninjaing. Even if we fought for an op and won it was taken back although in fairness this happened maybe twice and you did leave krupp well alone. Then again when we took rockshore and drakkan off of black cartel who didnt deserve to own ops they got taken from us as well.

Not sure if you guys knew but we have struggled to get players online at any decent hour of the day when pops were good. We have since lost 2 to real life. 2 more have disappeared and about 10 others never bother to really log on. we could muster a maximum of 4 people on line at a given time which means the above advice makes total sense in the op post.

However. The problem is this. I have gamed for years with some of the guys we tried to get to come back. We threw so much at them in terms of guns and stuff to get them started and they still log on once in a blue moon. We have a whatsapp group full of chatter every day but not many made the effort to log on and play. Im not prepared to throw a ton of stuff at someone i dont know just to have them log off and disappear with no reward for the effort. I wouldnt ever expect someone to do it for me either which means a long wait while the "noob" becomes combat ready. Then they need to learn to op fight. Again due to shitty numbers we could never even practice op fights and sucked considerably at team based pvp when compared to single fights in neofrag or what ever as they are two different animals. There are a billion threads on our forums about op fights and still people did dumb shit which was hard to eliminate without practice.

Myself personally i play evenings australian time which is the deadest time of the server and i dont wanna sit up till 5am to op fight so i move on. i will come back again im sure when a patch is released and the populations outside of euro time pick up or there is some how more action to be found in this game because i sure as hell dont want to pve anymore.


Great thread and i hope it picks up but i gave my best in the month or so i played again but its not happened so im gonna take another long absence and hope that it picks up soon.

[I See Blue]

I totally agree with what Bluerobot says. My experience is that there are people around waiting to be picked up or asking around for clans, but just not getting any.


I´m not saying throw equipment at them or anything, but there is a definite need for clans to start picking up unexperienced people. We´re not at the population lvls where clans can expect to pick up practiced OP-fighters without any effort.

Of course they won´t be as effective as the guys who have been around all this this time, but they might be in time, and the most important thing would be that you are teaching guys who might bring al ot to the server.


A pity to see the Regulators have already given up, but judging from the strict rules that William posted here I´m not surprised you couldn´t get more people to join. Come back soon tho, I´m hoping to kill and trade with you soon.

[William Antrim]

Aside from echoing Doc's sentiments it seems to me the answer is clearly staring you guys in the face.


Split 17th, make it two times 8 and a half if you have to. You are a victim of your own "success". Recruiting half the server has given you nobody to fight. You guys need to take a good long look at your own active population in your clan and then relate that to the active op fighting population on the server. You already have the majority of the players, now you have noone to fight.


It is all good saying hey guys go do this and then think about the time frame involved to A) level the noobs B) equip the noobs and C) train the noobs. This could take a matter of days, even weeks or possibly months in some cases - real life dependent.

See the alternative solution is have a huge purge of CM and chuck a load of people out into another faction - whats the harm? You are all still mates at the end of the day and as you said you can use the TS together. That way you get to fight one another.

In a clan that size there will be a few friendship groups, split along those lines is easy to do.

I had a conversation last time I was in game with one of your members and my advice was the above, his reply was that you had stopped recruiting ages ago but I know that I have been approached personally on two chars by various high ranking alts in the clan in the last month or two.

I hate to be the doomsayer but I could see this happening when I made that other thread a while back. I guess this is just a case of you made your bed and now you have to sleep in it.


In the meantime for a pvp fix I have battlefield 4 and APB. If anyone fancies playing either one with me/us then give us a shout.

:)

good luck with your op fighting.

[I See Blue]

William.

Seriously? You think splitting one of the few clans able to organize a fighting team up will improve the server? I disagree totally.

Instead, how about making an effort. Yeah it takes some training and equipment to make a good fighter out of someone who just came back or started. But that´s what a clan has to do to improve and survive. Help other clanmates lvl, help them with gear, teach them what you know that they don´t. Especially since the server-numbers are low, this isn´t the time to be picky and overly selective.

Thing is, 17th has done our job in building a clan. And you want to punish us for actually making an effort in training and equipping our members? Just because you are too lazy to make an effort. Please Will, that´s just lame.



By the way, I seem to remember a threat from you that you had the backing of many veterans of neocron to take OPs and changing the op-fighting scene. Guess it was just bullshit and wind heh?

Back up your words with actions more often Will...


17th won´t be disbanded on your request. So why do you keep saying it?

[William Antrim]

Get over yourself son. :)

You asked the rest of the community to give you an opposition. Guess what buddy its not gonna happen.

If you want this doing you are gonna have to do it the simplest, easiest and most effective way. Start it for yourself.


Yes I do think that splitting the clan will make it better, you will have all of these pvpers ready to fight one another. You will have more (smaller yes but more as you wished for) fights.

I made an effort. I got bored. I went to find my pvp fix elsewhere. I busted a nut for 2 months getting people geared up to go fight. I put in countless hours morning noon and night. I got bored because pvp in nc is dying. The quality fights we used to have are gone now.

There arent enough people to sustain the quality of pvp I want. There arent enough fights, too much downtime, a plethora of other reasons. I can log on to battlefield and see more people in one server most of the times I play.

I can log onto APB and get a good fight going with only 2 people on my side (up to 4 in my team) EVERY SINGLE TIME I log in.

You remember a thread, not a threat. Choose your words more carefully. :)

I dont give a shit about 17th, youre just the latest in a long list of names of clans who have come along and controlled the majority of ops on the server (I wont use the term owned due to the connotations of said word). I give a shit about the fights. I want good quality pvp. Not zoneline hugging, not 11 ppus and 5 fighters. Not any of the other stuff that has happened in nc pvp of late. I want a balanced pvp experience.

Punish you? ROFL no. I want you to see that the only way you are going to get any traction with this request is to start by getting the ball rolling. Lead by example.

In my job at work I lead a team of people. Granted my team is small but I am the one in charge. When I ask them to graft hard I make damned sure I am doing it with them. I lead from the front. I roll up my sleeves and I fill sandbags along with them. I do not sit at the top of my hierarchy and tell everyone else what to do. I make sure I am there doing the same. Do you see where I am coming from with this?

I give a shit about the fights. I want good quality pvp. Not zoneline hugging, not 11 ppus and 5 fighters. Not any of the stuff that has happened in nc pvp of late. I want a balanced pvp experience. So do lots of other people. A lot of them didnt bother to post in this thread. They just silently left and went to other games and left you with the experience you have now and the fights you crave.

I am one of the few who bothered to post in your thread and show you an opposite side of the coin, an opinion which you might not have wanted but you got anyway. If you expected us all here to go "yeah ok well lets do that I am up for that god damnit I cant believe I didnt think of it" then you are sadly mistaken.

I have cabinets full of rares, lots of stored up guns, plenty of money in the bank and 12 chars spread over 3 accounts. At least 6 of those are op fight ready and can, if and when I decide to pvp in NC again go and op fight. However my heart isnt in it this week.

As I said in another thread Op fighting in NC used to be the best fun I could have with my clothes on, these days its not even a dick tease.

[William Antrim]

I hope that something good comes of this thread, I genuinely do.


However looking at it from an outsiders perspective it essentially looks like youre telling the rest of the server to get their asses in gear to come and fight you but not actually offering to DO anything to help them - aside from loaning a TS. It is a token gesture at best.


I wouldve edited the previous post but I cant for some reason - browser at work wont let me.


Anyway, good luck! :)

[Powerpunsh]

unexperienced players are just cannonfood. The current PVP can only be successfully done with advanced and hardcore gamers. Thats why most avoid PVP (or already quit the game). Everyone should be able to stand quite safe with shields and heal in an opfight so debuff as strategie makes the win. No need nowadays just keep firing. Best aim wins... if there weren't stealthtools we had tank'o'cron.
Talk about the key problem and not about the numbers of a clan.

[aKe`cj]

unexperienced players are just cannonfood. The current PVP can only be successfully done with advanced and hardcore gamers. Thats why most avoid PVP (or already quit the game). Everyone should be able to stand quite safe with shields and heal in an opfight so debuff as strategie makes the win. No need nowadays just keep firing. Best aim wins... if there weren't stealthtools we had tank'o'cron.
Talk about the key problem and not about the numbers of a clan.

QFE - imho the balancing project is still the single most important issue at hand (in the scope of game mechanics).
The major interpolation WTFs were resolved, but PvP (and PvE) balance remain in a horrible place.

We all know the game is run by volunteers and things take time. That is ok - but I wish more effort would be made to invalidate the "nc is free, so stfu or gtfo" response that is more common than is healthy for the project in the long run. There are already too many people who followed the advice. Have all plans for funding development and upkeep been buried?

[Zoltan]

Well, to be fair the pvp around outposts never changed that much significant in the last decade but the playstyle of some clans and runners..

The problems are well known - the abusable gamemechanics which allows to "clip" around objects, staying into objects, ninja'ing, zerging and so one, its no secret. As a spectator of some pvp fights, I saw these unfair playstyles growing more and more. Opfights became highly emotional, the goal isn't to have a good fight anymore, the goal is to have this outpost at all costs - which is simply WRONG. There is a point you have to accept you were defeated by the enemy, prepare a new fight prolly on a new location.

I've talked to some of these people, they explained me their playstyle with "[...] because the game mechanics allows me to do so.". - Yes of course, but this is what makes people leaving the fight scene around outposts, and you finally get bored.

Nevertheless some of the current issues around the opfights are currently addressed by the content team and they working hard to get the things fixed for you. If you have any ideas how to improve the opfights -> post it into the brainport section (http://forum.neocron-game.com/forumdisplay.php?234-Brainport).


Z

[William Antrim]

I am so pleased you posted that.

We need Drachenpaladin's sig quote for emphasis here tbh. The part about fixing the community. Between the "win at all costs" mentality and refusal to see an asymmetric point of view (one opposed to the OP) and the lack of pvp balancing I think you can see why this thread came about in the way it has.


Recruiting the noobs could possibly do more harm than good, some of them might not know how bad pvp is in nc today :) you might just push them out of the door too! :O

[I See Blue]

You remember a thread, not a threat. Choose your words more carefully. :)

If you dont open the ops then I will open them for you. My clan and I have the full support of a number of very seasoned veterans from all corners of the Neocron universe. We have the man power and we have the resources.

The above a quote from the THREAD. It is definitely a THREAT. If you don´t do what I tell you to I will take it from you is the gist of it. Choose your corrections more carefully. I know you state in that same post that "this isn´t a threat", but that doesn´t really make i t less of a threat does it?

I honestly don´t understand how you can say disbanding 17th, which we put a lot of effort into, training, lvling etc, wouldn´t be a punishment thing for us? "You´re doing to well so you have to disband" Also, you are acting as if there are hundreds of us, there´s actually like a dozen actives, hardly the whole server.

What I don´t understand is how you expect to grow the game when you are clearly not interested in taking in other than finished product PvPers. Yes noobs will occasionally hurt you a bit in fights in the beginning. But then they start to get a grasp of things and soon they make pretty much a neutral impression on a fight. And then, after being neutral for a while, getting their practice in, they start to make a positive impact on fights. But you gotta live through the first two phases first, accepting that they will need time to grow. What you need to do is to accept that you might have to let people have time to get better, like the people in 17th did. I for instance came back in november, and started with nothing. I lvled up, met Gonzo at the bunker when lvling, talked to him some and got onto the TS with the guys of 17th. After a few days on TS they let me join the clan. They didn´t throw gear at me, except possibly a buff or two on my ppu, and they let me get right into fighting.

Sure I had Sweet shouting lovely harsh words at me when he didn´t the antibuffs exactly like he wanted and I was too slow in reshielding him. And poor Ikampmedkvitekrist probably had to do a bit extra to cover my rusty PPUing, but hey, that´s what you have to accept to train people up. And now, I swear I´ve had maybe 2 or 3 fights where Sweet doesn´t shout at me, which is lovely, and I do feel like I do make a positive contribution in fights now.

Anyway, it´s not about throwing stuff at noobs and you know it. Most are able to lvl their characters without too much support, you give them a bit of help to get a first PvP weapon and they can fight with you. It´s about showing them cool stuff to do in this game...

By the way, I´m not too fond of being called son in that condescending manner. I´ve argued point for point with you in our discussions on this forum and you haven´t been close to being able to back up most of your statements, or refute mine in any meaningful way. So why would you assume that condescending tone?

Also, why am I supposed to get over myself? I´m just saying that wanting one of 2 active opfighting clans to split is the lazy solution, you´re just not prepared to make an effort, to take the time to ease people into PvP.

Besides, we don´t have to split the clan to get fights, because we do internal fights quite often for practive, 2vs2, 3vs3, 4vs4. That´s so we can improve and help eachother get better, which you don´t seem to be interested in doing for other people. And it´s not like we are dozens and dozens of people. We´re more like 10-12, spread between european and american time, so splitting the clan would most likely end in a european clan, and an american/australian clan.

I promise you that there are enough players around to start training up an opfightng crew, at least there was a month ago before i went on holiday. So quit being picky, and expecting others to do your work for you.

We built our clan, and not to a huge unmanageable monster like you suggest, but to a size that could fight with LG, TASA, AD. And these clans just suddenly disappeared from the PvP scene. And now we and that CA Tsunami clan are op-fight-ready, waiting for the others on the server to pull yourself together and gather 5-8 people together who can fire their guns in the same direction at roughly the same time. It has been done before, and it is definitely possible to do again.

[William Antrim]

Sorry I tuned out. You're missing the point. I don't want your clan to disband. I couldn't care.

I'm telling you from experience some of the contributing reasons why you have no opposition.

I don't care for anecdotes or war stories. The fundamental reasons why PvP in this game is flat are here as stated.


3 other people posted after me yet your entire post just aims at me.

Great. Well done. Still not interested in training noobs or any of the other stuff you're harping on about.

I will finish with a quote from Shakespeare.

Words to heat of deeds, doth cold breath give.

Actions speak louder than words. My words go unheard so my action is to choose my entertainment elsewhere.


In case you aren't sure what I mean - split your clan and YOU train the noobs. Get them into your new clans. Train them and everything else you're telling us to do.

As for your clan, in case you haven't noticed. I honestly don't care.

[slith]

[...]We built our clan, and not to a huge unmanageable monster like you suggest, but to a size that could fight with LG, TASA, AD. And these clans just suddenly disappeared from the PvP scene. And now we and that CA Tsunami clan are op-fight-ready, waiting for the others on the server to pull yourself together and gather 5-8 people together who can fire their guns in the same direction at roughly the same time. It has been done before, and it is definitely possible to do again.[...]
[...]I've talked to some of these people, they explained me their playstyle with "[...] because the game mechanics allows me to do so.". - Yes of course, but this is what makes people leaving the fight scene around outposts, and you finally get bored.[...]No comment.

[I See Blue]

Sorry I tuned out. You're missing the point. I don't want your clan to disband. I couldn't care.

I'm telling you from experience some of the contributing reasons why you have no opposition.

I don't care for anecdotes or war stories. The fundamental reasons why PvP in this game is flat are here as stated.


3 other people posted after me yet your entire post just aims at me.

Great. Well done. Still not interested in training noobs or any of the other stuff you're harping on about.

I will finish with a quote from Shakespeare.

Words to heat of deeds, doth cold breath give.

Actions speak louder than words. My words go unheard so my action is to choose my entertainment elsewhere.


In case you aren't sure what I mean - split your clan and YOU train the noobs. Get them into your new clans. Train them and everything else you're telling us to do.

As for your clan, in case you haven't noticed. I honestly don't care.


What point am I missing? That you think 17th should train up everyone on the server, and then turn them over to you so you get someone to opfight with? Because you can´t be bothered to train people yourself? You must have enormous respect for us in 17th since you seem to think we are responsible for teaching everyone on this server.

As for me telling my store: me getting into the game 4 months ago and 17th letting me in and letting me fight with them, was meant to show you that 17th actually has made an effort to train people up. And I´m not the only one who has been given time and training in this clan. And to show for that effort 17th has an opfighting-team.

As for me personally, I´ve shown many new players around, helped out with starter weps, practiced in Neofrag with people. I helped out the guys whos tarted the NC^1 clan, I even have a character in that clan, helped a few of them lvl and get gear.

So my clans actions, and my actions speak for themselves. You however, seem more interested in just reaping the rewards of others efforts, not wanting to train people, not letting them have the time to grow as fighters. Helping peopl isn´t about throwing gear at them, it´s about teaching them some stuff, showing them the fun of the game, letting the into the fights even if they aren´t the best fighters at the moment.

As for the other peoples posts, I did talk about what Powerpunsh said, he talked about noobs just being cannonfodder. I said that what they needed was to be given time and practice and experience. Specifically, I said this:

"Yes noobs will occasionally hurt you a bit in fights in the beginning. But then they start to get a grasp of things and soon they make pretty much a neutral impression on a fight. And then, after being neutral for a while, getting their practice in, they start to make a positive impact on fights. But you gotta live through the first two phases first, accepting that they will need time to grow. What you need to do is to accept that you might have to let people have time to get better, like the people in 17th did."


As for the posts on improving game mechanics, etc from Ake and Zoltan, this was not the topic of the thread, nor do I know enough about the progress of the balancing project or the fixing of game mechanics to discuss it. I know some stuff I would like to work better, and I definitely want balancing, but that wasn´t what we were talking about.

I really do think that actions speak louder than words. You´re leaving... So it must mean you don´t really care that much.

What you should have done is make the effort in game instead, like I did. Like 17th did. And then, you might have had something to show for it.


And Falk, come back, it was great fun fighting TASA, even if you´re a fucking nightmare to put down most of the time, and we lost as much as we won. Some good fights tho.

[Drachenpaladin]

What point am I missing? That you think 17th should train up everyone on the server, and then turn them over to you so you get someone to opfight with? Because you can´t be bothered to train people yourself? You must have enormous respect for us in 17th since you seem to think we are responsible for teaching everyone on this server.

No. Just make a wing clan, split your members in half and proceed to beat each other to pulp. Thats the entire gist of it.

[aKe`cj]

As for the posts on improving game mechanics, etc from Ake and Zoltan, this was not the topic of the thread, nor do I know enough about the progress of the balancing project or the fixing of game mechanics to discuss it. I know some stuff I would like to work better, and I definitely want balancing, but that wasn´t what we were talking about.

I threw in the game mechanics issue because I felt that what is being suggested boils down to voluntary commitments (a "community gentlemen's agreement" if you like). My experience is, that this sort of stuff - noble intentions honoured - does not work out in the long run (it works until it fails and things fail fast). Neocron more than most games, has a history of attracting cunts that take pleasure in ruining other peoples fun, even when (or because) it hurts the game as a whole.
That is, why I believe it is the GameMasters and Developers responsibility to lay out the basic rules.

I do not believe that NC is lacking a majority of helpful players and clans willing to support newbies. Contrary to that, I regularly see newbs getting pampered by vets. What NC is lacking is a critical mass of players - there should not be the need to appeal to people to form a "second decent clan" so there can be a total of 2 active op fighting crews. Fix the game and the number of active clans will fix itself.



[...]I've talked to some of these people, they explained me their playstyle with "[...] because the game mechanics allows me to do so.". - Yes of course, but this is what makes people leaving the fight scene around outposts,

One can blame the cunts, but they won't change. Game mechanics and RoC however can.

PS: if you're in a hurry, it's cj, not aKe :)

[I See Blue]

No. Just make a wing clan, split your members in half and proceed to beat each other to pulp. Thats the entire gist of it.

He doesn´t want us to make a "wing clan", he wants us to split. He says so explicitly.

But why? All you would end up with is two clans of reduced strenght. And both would be able to opfight less often, since we most of the time have 4-8 players online for our fights, and not necessarily the same people every time. All you would achieve with this is breaking up one of the few functioning clans into two smaller and less functional clans. Actually, SXR has had some fights on their own since they joined up with us, so we sort of already have a wing clan.

As I said, there need to be an acceptance from other people that they have to allow people into PvP without them being great at it from the start. As I stated in another thread ( http://forum.neocron-game.com/showthread.php?155048-Ask-not-what-your-game-can-do-for-you-ask-what-you-can-do-for-your-game ) I´d be interested in starting up a training clan with a few people, to take people in and easing them into the game and PvP. I have a few chars I could spec around to support new players in such a clan. I might look into getting one started when I get back in a few days.

And I have to say this again, it´s not like we have 50 members here. It´s more like 12-13, with a few other people dropping in at random times. And these 12-13 don´t play constantly, so at most fights we can muster between 3-4 and 7-8 fighters. Is it that hard to see that splitting that up wouldn´t do much good? It would just result in, as I have said before, two lesser clans who most of the time would be unable to muster a fighting group.

No, the solution isn´t to ruin the clans who are able to fight, the solution is to include more players in PvP, taking the time to train them, bringing them to fights, teaching them some tactics and letting them get some experience. That is what this thread is about. People need to stop excluding people just because they fear that they might be bad in the beginning. It´s about making an effort. I´d be happy to help, as I have done before. I, and I believe most of 17th with me, want fights. With bigger numbers, with good players, with different clans.


Anyways, Will. I don´t agree with you on a lot of things, and I think you post more on feeling than on well thought through concepts, but you seem to care about the game. A pity you are giving up tho, this game can´t really afford to lose people.

By the way, for a guy that doesn´t care about 17th, you mention us an awful lot and seem to expect us to train everyone.

[hudsonbeck]

My 2 cents:
The initial post, along with many other initial posts in other threads was, as I understand it, simply a plea for action. In this particular case it was asking for someone/others to help new players start a clan or build a clan to increase OP wars... We seem to be far from that at this point in the thread!

It is obvious everyone here has a special place in their heart for Neocron and only want it better, more players, continued longevity. The forum is an interesting place, a lot of great things can come out of it but a lot of toxic things as well! I can tell you that for me in the past, many many years ago, I let The toxicity that sometimes happen get to me and it honestly ruined the game for me and I stopped playing. I quit coming to the form and just started playing the game that I enjoyed and not worrying about every detail and just played. And the fun came back and I once again enjoyed playing neocron. I know most people's hearts are in the right place but be careful and don't let these things ruin the game for you. Just play and have fun.

I've recently returned in the last few weeks and started playing again. I have four accounts but only a few midrange character so far. The game is a lot different now. As I've said previously I can absolutely vouch for the 17th and the regulators for being a lot of assistance in and out of the game.

However, one bit of advice... Most times it's better to say things like "hey I'm going to do this Who wants to help?"

Far too many great ideas or suggestions take no action.

I hope this did not come off as me being on my soapbox but I felt things were far too off-track. Should this thread be edited for discussion not related to the original topic there would be little to read. I've been there before been so frustrated and just giving up I hate to see others in the same situation.

So just try to play and have fun in the game that you enjoy worry less about the details and know that the developers are working. Keep helping the new players like all of you have been, God knows we need it :-)

[I See Blue]

Good man, welcome back.

And yeah, we´re pretty good at being assholes to eachother, in and out of game. There´s more love in the game now than before tho, at least towards people who return or noobs.

As for doing stuff, I´ve got a thread going called "Ask not what your game can etc. etc." that seems to have just about died out a few days ago. The stuff we agreed on there I will try putting into action when I get home on monday/tuesday.

This includes some events, some noobhelp, instructional videos with Faid and maybe a clan that will recruit and train for fights and lvling. Doing some basic opfighting drills, some neofrag, as well as helping people get their lvls and find ways to get good gear.


My main reason for wanting to start that clan is that I´ve seen quite a lot of people asking for clans, and noone picking them up. And at the same time the bigger clans complain they have noone online.

[hudsonbeck]

Yes I See Blue, I have read your posts and commend you for all your efforts. You put in a lot to help and your posts and ideas do seem to come from a good place. I did not mean to sound as if I thought otherwise.

I have always enjoyed the ingame assholes and douchebags. But I haven't really been around in a long time and most of the ones in my day are g0ne and for good reasons.

I have been approached a couple times to join up with Leonard nemoy (sp?) but it will be a couple weeks until I have a Pvp ready character of two. Then I'll find a fun mature clan who's active. I know things change all the time. Hopefully 17th, regulators, pricks, etc will still be around.

I was never the best at Pvp in my day but I wasn't half bad...

[Doc Holliday]

Blue you need to step back from the thread. Your getting too wound up.

Its all well and good saying train the noobs etc.

You and your clan clearly are missing the key point by a country mile here though. Who has time to do this? Who has inclination to want to do it? Do you want to play baby sitter to a bunch of players who could be years younger than you for one?

Do you really want to put extra effort when you may only have limited gaming hours to physically play the game and you spend it wiping some guys digital arse because he needs the practice etc.

This is an extreme example but an example nonetheless. What will said is absolutely correct. You are outright refusing to even make an alt clan to fight against to try and generate some fights.

17th are the kings of a dead server. I could see it going down 2 months ago. You guys (i hate finger pointing) contributed to this as much as anyone. Now your the ones left to look at the mess. Its like a drunken husband going crazy and smashing things in an argument with his wife who then ups and leaves and he wakes up to the mess. Thats what this is. So many clans quit because of boredom or what ever.

You need to accept this for what it is and not talk about what might have been and throw shit at people on the forum. The thread you referred to never came to fruition for ALL of the above reasons. We decided it not worth the hassle or the aggro and because you guys ninja'ed ops off us first and we decided to let you have them and go elsewhere. Cause and effect. Julius had a hand in it all too with his bullshit bully boy tactics in the email linked in another thread. If it was an attempt at roleplay it was utter shit and could have been much better and would have garnered a reply in kind.

However this is all in the past albeit the very recent. As it stands now SOMEONE has to make a move first. SOMEONE has to start and make a change and until that happens you are going to be in the same issue so as william said take a step back or get off your high horse or what ever it is and accept that your in the shit (as mentioned in the op) and look at real ways to fix the problem.


Oh and good luck with that. If/when the attitude changes as well as the pops i might come to play again. I dont expect miracles however. I hope to see some actual results and positive discussion in the remainder of this thread with someone stepping up and saying OK im making XYZ clan called this and we are gonna be this and do this and this cause this would be a perfect thread to do some recruiting but again i cant see that happening.

Finishing the post on a positive note good luck chaps with it all.

@hudson dont join nimoys clan. You will get more trouble for that than its worth.

[William Antrim]

Put your left hand over the avatar of a post before you reply to it. I never wanted your clan to split up. You're insignificant in my eyes, or no more or less significant than anyone else.

You need to understand that nothing you say is going to change ny mind. I can't be bothered to help you simply. It's about the fun. There is no fun in it for me. Many others feel the same.

If you pay me sure I will help, otherwise no thanks but please take the stick out of your arse. No clan is that special to me in nc. With the exception of the one in my sig. The rest of you are just targets. One day I might grace you with my presence. Until then I couldnt care.

[I See Blue]

Hudson, I´m with Doc on Nimoy, he has a certain amount of previous on the server. He was in 17th for instance, and attacked a clanmate when he fought against a member of a KoS clan, and was kicked. He also has had some arguments with Regulators. And he has kept up the arguments and insults for ages after the incidents. But you´ll notice eventually I guess.



Now Doc. I´m getting wound up? I´m the one suggesting realistic things here, not just suggesting that others disband because I am unable to compete, or expecting others to do all the work.

What Will here seems to miss out completely on, is that training people, growing a clan doesn´t just happen on it´s own. This always took effort and time, even when there were more people around. If you didn´t make an effort with your clan you ended up with a disjointed and ineffective fighting force. And some people do get satisfaction from creating something functioning out of chaos, from helping people.

I´m by no means saying you should be spending every second in game training people. But if you help people get going, giving them that little nudge, spending that half hour in neofrag with them, taking them to an op fight to show them how it works, then they might get more into it. They might start seeking fights and training on their own. I´m not talking about constant handholding here which is what you guys seem to think. I´m talking about to lead a clan and make it something more than just a group of people on a teamspeak, you gotta learn to cooperate, to train together, to lvl together.

Why is it our responsibility to make an alt clan? When was this ever a viable long term solution? Who would this create more fights for? Ourselves? We can already arrange infights. And Will has consistently said disband, split etc, not create an alt clan. So don´t try to change around what he has stated before. No, the solution is to rally the rest of the server, to help them create something, which I have said time and again that I would be willing to aid with. Not that Will listens to alternatives to his crackpot splitting idea.


I´ve argued why the split isn´t a good idea, and you or Will have still to show me how taking a regular opfighting group of 4 to 8 people and splitting that in two will help anything. I argue that it will end up with much the same as Regulators, with there being very rare occasions when there are enough people on to start a fight. Wasn´t that your experience with 4-5 people?


I´ve been saying again and again how 17th grew through making an effort. How it took in people who were not experienced and gave them time and experience. How We´ve spent time practicing in neofrag, and had mock opfights. How I try and help out people when I come across them. Yet again and again Will says I have to start doing something to improve things. Both he and you don´t seem to realise you have to make an effort to make an impact in this game.

So I´ve come to the conclusion that there is no point answering Will, because he doesn´t really argue his points. He just makes statements and expects people to agree, and if people disagree and argue against his points he ignores the arguments. Great way of making progress.

17th gets so many fingers pointed at it, and it is for the simple reason that for random reasons we became the last decently sized clan standing. As far as I know, for no other reason than that other clans quit. TASA and LG disappeared gradually, and AD imploded. We held maybe 1/4 of the map at that time, and were by no means the biggest clan. As far as I know we used no tactics or tricks that other clans didn´t. So I don´t see why we are getting targeted. We might be part of the problem, but to no larger or smaller degree than the rest of the community.

[I See Blue]

Will, either make an argument for your standpoints, with reasons why your ideas would help, or just stop making statements. You´re not arguing your points, just shouting out your opinions, and getting mad when I argue against them. That´s no way to discuss man.

You consistently use negative words like insignificant, trying to correct my spelling (which was a mistake you didn´t own up to. Do you know now why I use threat instead of thread?) and do very little to contribute to a discussion.

For those reasons, I´m just gonna stop responding to whatever you post, since in your own words, you´re not gonna change your opinion. It is therefore useless to discuss anything with you.

Have fun with whatever games you "grace" with your presence.

[William Antrim]

It doesnt matter whether you did what you did or didnt do what you say you did. Its all he said she said we did we didnt.

The problem is not any one clan, it is the community as a whole. It just so happens that a large part of what is left of the op fighting community is in one clan. If you want more fights then thats where you will get them. This is irrespective of what badge/rank/clan tag that person is wearing. If you want fights next week you have to organise it amongst your op fighting chars and players, if you want fights down the road in a few months or years then you have to either A) train the noobs as you said or B) wait for balancing.

If you're happy with your skirmishes and in fighting amongst yourselves then all good. You dont seem to be hence the thread you made in the first instance.

The fact is no other clan has the inclination/willingness/numbers maybe to fight you. Nobody can be bothered to log in for their own reasons so you are left with no opposition.

If you split then you will have a bunch of regular players who will fight each other - this is what you want is it not?

All the people who op fight in nc today are the same ones who have been here for years, just wearing different tags. It is the SAME players underneath so what is the difference between a skirmish of 17th players and a group of people in a different tag. You are ALL THE SAME PLAYERS - you have the fights you want.

You ask why I mention you a lot..... because youre the thread starter bro... I am referring to a conversation (over the internet) that you started. Nothing more, nothing less.

I havent missed out on any of your points. I trained up colleagues, I busted a nut getting clans going and getting them up to op fighting speed. I worked my ass off night and day for extended periods over the last ten or eleven years. As part of a larger community I helped clans get to the top of the server. Been there done that. I dont need to tell war stories. I know how to do it. I had fun doing it. Do I want to do it again? No not really. I am content to let that part of NC slide. Why? Because I can. No other reason. If something is not fun for me I do not do it. I go to work for a living, I do not play nc for a living. I have already done much for this community, I am more than happy with my contribution in that regard.

Why is it your responsibility? Because you're the thread STARTER!!!! you are the one who has the problem :)

disband/split/create an alt clan.... you are splitting hairs with that one buddy, try atoms next. Nitpicking101 seriously. Lets just stop and take a breath. Ok now lets get back to the discussion.

I make statements which I see as facts. I do not cast my opinions generally. I call the facts as I see them. I make my analysis of a given situation and I state my reasoning why I think these things are happening.

If you want my opinion then here it is:

Tsunami is better than CM in terms of organisation and skill level. If CM disbands/splits/somehow loses some of its skilled players it will no longer have the numbers/skill to compete with Tsunami man for man on a regular basis. Tsunami will then control all of the OPs on the server and CM will go back to being just another clan in NC rather than the one currently holding all of the ops.

CM doesnt like this potential issue and so makes the thread because it wants to retain its influence over the game (lets face it everyone likes being the big boys on the block) and also have fun beating the new guys who join the game.

You are more than welcome to prove otherwise but I have not yet seen a clear plan of action as to how you want to achieve this goal proposed in the original post, other than saying "you guys do it". You made the thread, its your ball you got to make the play.


In my experience if the new guys want to join a clan then they will do it of their own volition. You or I cannot make them.

[I See Blue]

Ok, so what you are saying here is that we aren´t splitting because we are scared to lose influence. Which is just calling us weak, or powerhungry, or unskilled. Insults and assumptions, great argument dude. Maybe we aren´t splitting because we have fun playing together. Because we renjoy the clan we bult together

But hey, at least you finally tried to make an argument, even though it was flawed and based on assumptions.

To spell it out for you, we aren´t in it for the OPs, there is no fun in itself in holding an OP. The fun revolves around the winning and losing of them, the fights. And yeah, I do think that when one clan becomes dominant, it is the server that needs to step up and create resistance. How bad an attitude do you have to have for that to be the solution? How lazy is that? "I can´t be bothered to make an effort, you guys do it."

As for ideas, you contributed in my earlier thread, "Ask not what the game etc etc", where i come with a lot of ideas, so you do know I have put ideas out there. To which your answer, at least initially, don´t bother, just help noobs like you have done before, these suggestions have already been made. Basically you said: "Don´t make the extra effort". Which sort of shows how much you are willing to contribute to the game, aside from snide forum posts.


Oh, and as for you knowing how to build clans. You don´t really, do you now. You obviously failed at it just now, and left because of it. Your threats and boasts turned out to be hot wind, and I suspect this claim is too. You were unable to make an impact, so your answer is that those that oppose you should split up and disband.

Is a group of people that consists of say 11-12 people, and usually have 4 to 8 people online for fights, that invincible to you?

I know I said I wouldn´t answer you, but you made an effort this time, so I did.

[William Antrim]

Enjoy your Op fights bro. :)


Shame I can't help you any more. I provided an opposing view point. You don't like it. Your words are interpretations, nothing more. No need for me to comment further on that.


Paragraph 3 onwards is nothing but flamebait so nothing to see there either. Either you're unwilling to see my point of view or unable but your opinions are your own. I couldn't care either way. I'm still having fun.

It's your thread so clearly its your problem.


Good luck with the noob training. I hope you get some good opposition soon I really do.

[I See Blue]

Dude, you have provided two viewpoints.

1. You managed something I didn´t, so you should split up. It´s not fair that you have a clan that can fight for OPs and I don´t.

2. You should make the effort of opposing yourself, because I am not able/cba to do it.


That is your point of view. Honestly, it is.


Oh, and there is some bait in that post, but it is still true isn´t it? Obviously the truth stings.

And yeah, I´ll be enjoying my fights and Neocron in general.

[William Antrim]

Lol are you still going on about this?

:)

this is absolutely brilliant. Im at work, youre keeping me entertained.

Take a moment and look at this from a neutral outsiders point of view, someone will read this and see some of the crap and probably be put right off the game. It doesnt actually DO anything for the good of the community, or the good of the game. It just makes you look silly.

If you reply now you will look even more silly because all you can do is flame. It will just put off more people from playing if anything because they wont bother to even post, they will just go off and play other games just like I am. Only you wont notice it because they wont bring it to your attention.

You will possibly realise when the pvp in nc dries up completely and youre left to just having your fights with your clan.

I am showing you this is what will happen, irrespective of what I or anyone else here has acheived in the past. We are discussing the here and now. As it stands YOU have a problem because you have noone to fight. I do not have that problem but I can see your point. I have presented solutions to fix said problem which you do not like.

At what point did I ever say I cared about op fighting in nc? In my first post I even said I dont care much for your situation, it makes me laugh that you are still clinging to that line. I am at work, bored as there is nothing to do today so I came to the forum to pass some time. On that score you have given me some entertainment. :)

None of what you said is true because I do not care what you think. It is your opinion. I dont believe it so I laugh at it because you can be so single-minded in your crusade to defame me personally.

I laugh at the fact that while you are waging this personal attack against a person who dared to provide an opposing viewpoint all the while your original problem is not getting solved.

What good does this thread ACTUALLY do? It has done nothing other than show the rest of the world that you do not want to shrink your clan to provide opposition.

It is merely a suggestion to do something about your predicament. Yet you have to go on and on making these attacks when it is quite clear that all you are doing is making yourself look even more silly. :)

I have seen this situation happen before. I tried to stem the tide that time and it got me nowhere. I wont make the same mistake twice. I would rather focus my efforts on parts of the game I have some influence over.

If you arent willing to even acknowledge an opposing viewpoint then there is little I, or anyone else will be able to do to help you solve your problem.

As I said before I wish you all the very best on your mission. When the game becomes fun for me again I will play, in the meantime I am going to seek my fun elsewhere. :)

[I See Blue]

So why is me answering you silly, and you answering me not silly?

I do agree that it doesn´t get us anywhere, and that is as much your fault as mine. And if you think my discussing what your suggestion would lead to is a flame, you don´t really understand what a discussion is.

I´ve tried to give sensible suggestions as to how players could make an effort to improve the game, your suggestion has been breaking up one of 2 actually fighting clans. And opening all grs and thus messing up opfights. Not really viable alternatives.

I´m not waging a war, I´m answering your presumptous claims and suggestions. When you have made sensible suggestions, I have agreed with you, as you can see in other threads.

You keep coming back to shrinking/dividing the clan, like I said it´s at most 12 people we can muster, and that is the rare occasions. I would say our clan is on the border of having too few people to consistently opfight. So clearly, it´s the other clans that are lacking people, not we that are too many. Most of the time we fight in groups of 4 to 7/8 people. And that means that splitting isn´t really an option, as you would not even have enough people to hack an op without dual-logging. If we were talking a clan of say 20-25, I would agree a split would be sensible, but we are not even close to that.

So get back to work, and I´ll get back to tanning, and I´ll see you if and when you get back to the game.

[William Antrim]

Lol even more.

Dude you are gonna have to go down with your ship on this one. If you are posting this from your holiday then you seriously do need to just close the laptop for a mo and enjoy the sunshine.

The two solutions I posted are perfectly viable, you just dont like them for various reasons. That's all good but see the difference between not liking something and saying it is bad. There is a clear cut difference. This thread is nothing to do with other threads, its about this one. You do not like the advice given yet you ought to have thought about this before posting the thread in the first place! :D

At most you have 12 people - 6v6 is a good op fight tbh. Less and it just becomes a skirmish but you get the fights you clearly want. As I keep saying. You claim to just care about the fights but I have yet to see a proposal about what YOU are going to do about the current "problem" you have.

All your guys are ppus and pistol spys so the comment about not having enough hackers in a 6 man team is a push at best. Dual logging to hack an op is easily doable. It is not ideal I will be the first to admit but in this day and age (better computers means you CAN dual log more easily) - where you care more about the fights than the op then you DONT NEED to dual log. All you need is one hacker.

He hacks the op, other team turns up, you get the fight you desire.

I keep coming back to the dividing the clan idea because it is the only sensible one in the thread. You havent posted any and you just keep coming back with more of the same, just words. Words wont change the situation. Half the population of the game dont read the forum. The rest cant be bothered to post. The only reason I am is I enjoy a good discussion.

If you want to have a good discussion please reply. Or better still bump one of the threads discussing aspects of op fighting - ie the 3 hacker thread from a while back. Lets get the hacker problem changed with enough of a driving force behind the problem it could easily get overturned I am sure.

We could probably muster enough support to go back to something LIKE the old days of hacking Ops. Originally it was 1 hacker did all 3 layers and no hacknet (in case anyone doesnt know) but due to ninja-ing ops it got changed.

If we went to a 2 hacker rule (hacking ALTERNATE layers) then that would alleviate some of the problems while stopping the "ninja-ing" that goes on. That was the gist of the thread for anyone who is curious.

As for the "presumptions" and the "you dont understand what a discussion is" bollocks, save that for your op fights and flame wars in game. The forum is a place for mature discussion. Im more than happy to engage you in one.


:)

[I See Blue]

It´s like 9 am here, I´m waiting for the others to wake up.

Ok, so you finally responded to something I posted, the numbers. If you read what I said, the 12 was the rare occurance, RARE. And that is the number you run with. I said most of the time it is from 4 to 8, which means, teams from 2 to 4 people. Which isn´t viable in the long term. And those numbers means either everyone has to be a hacker (4 people), or the 2 guys have to dual log.

Are you seriously saying op fights with 2 people on each side are the way to go? Or three? This thread was meant as a call to arms, a challenge to muster some opposition. And you just wanted it to be about 17th. It isn´t. The server has to step up, people can´t just expect everything to be fixed for them, they have to make an effort themselves.

The thread (made by BlueRobot, not me as you seem to believe) was about this originally:people are asking for clans to join. Because they want to fight, they want to join in the endgame stuff. At the same time there are clans complaining they can´t get enough numbers. There´s you saying you aren´t able to put a clan together to make some opposition. Clans have been too picky, not accepting non-vets into their clans. Or not making enough effort in recruiting.

Are you serious in saying I haven´t made suggestions? Then you should read my posts again, I´ve made suggestions here and in other threads. On recruiting, on training, on making a fucking effort to improve the game. None of which you can be bothered to do.

Ok, I´ll leave this now, since you are just a broken record, spouting the same nonsense over and over.

As for mature discussion, you are the one using descriptions such as Sheep clan, calling others insignificant, telling me to get over myself, mocking me for answering what you say, trying to correct me (and failing miserably). Try taking the high ground guy, you´ll have a hard time getting up there.

[William Antrim]

Stop posting.


Start doing.


If there are all of these people out there who want to join a clan but cant then the 4 or 5 people you think you guys will have on one side (which is a bad op fight apparently) will suddenly swell up in size back to the 7 or 8 or more per side like you said you want.

I cant believe you are still posting this stuff. You are just making yourself look even more silly, its not THAT youre posting but WHAT youre posting! :)

I never said I couldnt, I said I couldnt be arsed.

This is truly hilarious. If there is this nucleus of people just waiting to be trained up to op fight then the two new clans that spawn out of the 17th that is here currently will have all of these noobs to train and be able to give them the benefit of your experience.

It is even more obvious now that this is the way to go. You guys could grab all of those guys up, train em up, coach em up whatever em up and get your op fights back to how they used to be!

Dont keep writing are you saying..... followed by another assumption - read what I wrote, its right there for all to see. It just makes you look lazy or silly. Either or.

Yes I am serious in saying that you havent made an effort. You (the collective brain trust of 17th) made a thread and some posts in a thread. The thread went nowhere. If you want to change the game then change the first and easiest thing you can do, yourself. Some of this enthusiasm needs to rub off in the game and you will find you are richly rewarded in following my advice. The noobs will benefit, they will get their pvp fix. You will get yours also because you will have what you wanted in the OP and you guys will all be able to keep your ops, have your fights and generally be happier that you made a difference today.

See thats that problem fixed - I am on a roll here, I am gonna take a look at North Korea next and then sort out world peace this afternoon.

If you don't like it, dont reply. Then the thread will die. :)

[William Antrim]

Is english your first language?

I sense some translation errors at times is all. This is not a flame. Just checking because you talk about how I am correcting you using a very literal version of correction. Specifically with the threat vs thread thing. That was a contextual correction not a literal spelling correction.

I made a thread, not a threat. :)

[BlueRobot]

It seems i have to clarify something here: This thread was not directed at William + Doc aka the Regulators.

This thread is pointed towards anyone who plays the game actively and wants to contribute to keep the players and help players to get into the game so the population can rise again. It was also a hint and offer of help for guys who want to get into PvP.

William has clarified his position a hundred times now. Its OK if you're not interested in putting any effort into what I suggested, but why the fuck do you keep writing articles in this thread ?
To make this clear: I don't give a shit about you or Regulators. We beat the crap out of you 1v2 the last time you were active on Titen and we did so this time. We're not going to split so you can join us and win some fights. If you weren't so seriously butthurt these whole ninja/"zerg"/"bully tactics" (wtf you serious lol?) accusations would be loughable. You guys attacked us 2 times. (Oh you glorious PvPers you) Once with 2-3 more people than us, where we had a decently lasting fight, but you still lost after a while. And once with 1 more guy than us, where you got roflowned in 5 minutes. Since then you tried ninjaing 2-3 times and then left. Since then you went onto an embarassing spam attack on the forums to salvage your honor with talking bullshit on an online forum. If someone reads your dumb posts and doesn't know you guys PvP'd for about a week before becoming butthurt and stopping to play they might actually think you arent super worthless at PvP, which is exactly what you are. Good job!
My suggestion? If you don't have enough time to go ingame and accomplish anything there, you might want to spend less time on the forum and more time in your awesome real life, about which I (you guessed correctly) dont give a shit. Go carry some sandbags with your bros, go back to the army and shoot some crocodiles but pls don't tell me more about the shitty life lessons about leadership you learned at APB.
But if you're not interested in doing something for the game, then keep your inane posts out of serious threads about that topic.

[I See Blue]

Is english your first language?

I sense some translation errors at times is all. This is not a flame. Just checking because you talk about how I am correcting you using a very literal version of correction. Specifically with the threat vs thread thing. That was a contextual correction not a literal spelling correction.

I made a thread, not a threat. :)

I know I said I´d leave this, but this needs answering. You made a threat in that thread. A threat saying if you don´t do what I tell you too, I will make you do it. A threat you failed to back up.

I know what I´m writing, even if english isn´t my first language, I don´t need you to correct me. I´m norwegian, not that this has anything to do with anything.


The silly" OMG, you answered again thing you are doing" is really a pathetic tactic. Childish behaviour basically, since you are unable to discuss properly.

You are the one who aren´t doing anything. I´ve been away on holiday a month, so my only possible contribution is posting in the forums. When I get back in 2 days I´ll start putting into action some of my suggestions from this and other threads.

For a guy preaching action over words, you talk A LOT more than you actually do man. I´ve done stuff in the recent past (before I went on holiday), created an event, helped people, etc. Yet in my time back since november I have hardly noticed you in game, though you make a lot of noise here on the forums.


As for the other thread you posted in just now, you are much to pedantic and inflexible for me to want to cooperate with you.
Maybe someone else wants to, I don´t know.

OK, that was the last of it for me. Honestly, I mean it this time.

[William Antrim]

lol. :)

Ok guys. This one is done.

Thanks for a great discussion - you too Blue robot.

That was some insightful posting. Thanks. Yes. Really. :)

I have done a shitload for this community and continue to do so. Just because you chaps dont see it doesnt mean it doesnt happen. I make a lot of contributions in the brainport, you tend to get a better quality of discussion there for example. Just because you dont see "William Antrim" in the game doesnt mean the player is not there helping people, running missions, giving out advice etc. With 3 accounts active and 3 more inactive I tend to spend a lot of time on my other 11 characters but hey thats my choice. :)

I dont need to flame you fellas to get my point across. I can do it in a calm relaxed manner. It seems I am one of the few.

Anyway as I said before - good luck with your op fights guys I truly hope you manage to get some more good fights out of this game. :)

Have fun, see you in game sometime.

[BlueRobot]

I have done a shitload for this community and continue to do so.

LOL. Can some mods pls remove the flaming/self-staging, now that it's stopped?

Back on topic now: Another reason for this post is, that 10-15% population during prime-time should mean 100-150 people online, which means 10 times as many people as we have online during peak time. It should easily be possible to form a few more clans just as big as 17/pricks. If you're afraid of ninjaing/laming we can talk and lay down rules as well.

[William Antrim]

Moderate yourself first buddy. :)

100 players is a lot different to 100 people who can or want to PvP.

I have never seen pops above about a 100 people myself but hey who am I to argue.

If you want something done start it off is all I'm saying.

If it's as easy as you claim then why hasn't it happened?

[Faid]

I think you should remake this thread I see blue. But this time, make it clear that you are not talking to William or Doc. The thread wasn't aimed at the regulators, it was aimed at the other 100 or so people that play NC. I'm tired of having to sift through Williams derogatory whine posts to see if any actual NC players have something constructive to add. It's obvious he's bored at work and just wants to clutter up this thread with insignificant babble, he and his 3 mates don't even play NC anymore so lets leave it at that.

[BlueRobot]

Click (http://stats.techhaven.org/graphs/peak-populations?server=titan&enddate=15-Mar-2014&startdate=13-Feb-2013) for population. I know there are a lot of players open to join a PvPing clan, because i get asked a lot. This isn't only about PvP as well, but about giving those players a chance to experience the whole game for which you need a PvPing clan.

I'm not saying it's easy, but I'm trying to encourage people and help them.

But since you're asking those questions now - after posting bs flame, getting off to your own ego and telling us to shut up and recruit/train/equip all the players to then send them over to you while praising the "shitload" you did for the community - I'm sure there isn't going to be decent conversation with you, so quit the moaning already and go post stuff in the Brainport if you have to.

[Dropout]

Impressive how fast ignorance and straight up stupidity can change what you think about certain people..
I have not read this last page, since.. Well you all just sound like broken records.
Will and to some extent Doc, talking about stuff they clearly do not have a clue about. And I See Blue, trying to explain how it is to them..
I See Blue have clearly capped out his PATIENCE skills..


Will, sorry buddy but you're the one Im mainly talking about here..
So let me put it like this for you...
WE..DO..NOT..HAVE..ENOUGH..MEMBERS..TO..SPLIT..THE..CLAN..UP..
4-8 people is NOT enough to make two different clans.. How god damn hard is that to get through your thick skull?

Personally I play once or twice a week, since I just dont have time for more (or are too tired).
Sure once in a while 17th can suddenly have more than the 4-8 members mentioned in this thread online at once. But thats only when 2-3 of the people that rarely plays, gets online at the same time.. Its rare, but it happens. And then we suddenly have "24 people online!"
*sigh*

[r3yka]

Doc and Will you guys sound ridiculous man, our clan took months to reach the stage where we could compete with LG and TASA, and im sure if they came back, we would still be getting those high quality OP fights, and more often than not, get our asses spanked! Our clan is not overly sized like most claim, its just that there are not enough clans active atm, and the TSU clan are all american so when they log on in the week, a lot of our guys are sleeping so we kind of all log on mostly on sundays for organized PVP days, and when that happens, we sometimes happen to have 2-3 more than the TSU guys. If there were some more active clans that could attack atleast before 12-1:00 am then i'm sure you'd see a max of around 6-8 players defending, as I See Blue previously said.

You guys are just purely lazy from what I can see anyway. When i came back after 10 years of not playing, the guys here saw i was nooby and took me and a ppu to fight our best tank at the time (Torrez) and a ppu, and took time to highlight some things that were wrong with my set up etc, this has been the general process with most of our clannies, taking hours and hours in NF and stuff to compare different set ups and practice, you guys sound so lazy, and just expect instant-gratification, or other people to fix the problems, if you don't want to train up players and stuff then well, unless all your pro guys come back i highly doubt you'll be the leaders of an OP fight ready clan any time soon, I think this post was aimed at runners that do actually have a passion for the game, and are willing to take the time to forge bonds with other players and come up the ranks in an honorable fashion. you really just need to calm your poisonous attitudes, your continuous flaming of us, and it is continuous, is just getting annoying, especially when all we want is a healthy environment in the game

[brand]

"Stop posting.
Start doing. "
funny to hear that from william after his last thread^^

[William Antrim]

No need for flames boys. Haven't flamed any of you. Just said stuff you disagree with or don't like. Not much else to say.

Never said anything about send them over rofl.

You should probably pay more attention to what I do write if you're gonna reply instead of what you think I write. That's all of you. You too walker.


Nobody else much gave a shit so I thought someone ought to. Lol

[BlueRobot]

You' re the one who derailed this thread with a huge pile of flame, bullshit and assumptions. I just had to draw a line here because apparently you know no boundaries.

It's not like your writings are very profound, so we don't need to spend more time reading it, but instead you should spend more time thinking about it, before you post.

That said, at least you're a prime example of how not to behave, if you want to contribute to an environment where unexpirienced players get into the game easier.

[William Antrim]

Lol so I guess you didn't like my idea then?

[hudsonbeck]

Just greenlight thinking here and I know there's 1 million problems with this thought but I wanted to get it out there while I'm driving.
I wonder if there's a way to make OP levels. Say have a few OP near the city only be available to be owned by smaller clans say less than 20 members or whatever is considered small.
Just a passing thought.

[Dropout]

Just greenlight thinking here and I know there's 1 million problems with this thought but I wanted to get it out there while I'm driving.
I wonder if there's a way to make OP levels. Say have a few OP near the city only be available to be owned by smaller clans say less than 20 members or whatever is considered small.
Just a passing thought.
What about alts then? Most people have at (the very) least a fighter and a PPU in their clan.
Personally I have two spies and two tanks in 17th. Thats four characters there already.
Doing it on a account basis wont really help it either (not in my case anyways), since those four characters are on three different accounts.

Not a bad idea though. Just doubt that it'll work.



@Will: Dude you pretty much every single thing you have said here, has been flaming of 17th.. Yeah you probably havent flamed one specific person, but you have flamed a whole clan and therefore their members.

[William Antrim]

No mate. Not in the slightest. Not trolled flamed or otherwise said a single thing that is derogatory. Just said stuff you gents don't want to hear. That's all. I can't help it that 5 of you need to reply to one thing that clearly annoyed you.

In all fairness no one else really came up with much of a solution so I think in all honesty I did the thread some good. :) you need to be able to see a different side sometimes. It makes the end decision so much better.

[hudsonbeck]

What about alts then? Most people have at (the very) least a fighter and a PPU in their clan.
Personally I have two spies and two tanks in 17th. Thats four characters there already.
Doing it on a account basis wont really help it either (not in my case anyways), since those four characters are on three different accounts.

Not a bad idea though. Just doubt that work.

It's just green light thinking... Don't worry about the details. In all honesty we don't have the ability to change code/ force things to happen a certain way but we do have the ability to make an impact. Who cares if we all have alts. I know most like to shoot them selves in the foot or cut off their nose to spite their face but this thread still has potential even after all the negative I can't , I won't, you don't, etc...

My thought... Make a few ops near the city " low level clan only OPs" don't worry about the details.

What's everyone else's green light idea? Nothing, even time travel, is off the table.

[I See Blue]

Hudson, it ain´t too horrible an idea. The idea of different entry lvls to PvP would be nice. BUT, there are no big clans in this game at the moment. In addition, this is more about what the community can do than the developer/coder side of things.

In addition, they are gonna fix what is broken before they start adding more complex stuff.

However, as to what this thread is about, clans taking in people who want to do end lvl stuff, it has to improve. I have often seen clans putting out recruiting messages, asking for experienced players, or good PvPers. Which isn´t the reality we are facing anymore with low server numbers. Instead clans need to take in players who are out of practice, who have started recently etc, and give them access to PvP, in op fights, in groups in PP, in neofrag. And here was the main problem when talking to William: he didn´t get (or read, or understand, or didn´t want to understand) that this is something that 17th was doing up until we stopped recruiting months ago. And when I said that people need to start doing this, his comeback was "You do it."

We already did it, and to show for our efforts we have an op-fighting clan. (Like me and R3yka and others have tried to tell Will, but he won´t listen)

Now we want others to try the same, to see if they also can create a clan out of the material that is out there. I am sure quite a few people who are playing now are able to do it with a bit of effort. There are about 10% on at peak each day, which means 100 players, which I would guess puts us at around 300-400 players total, maybe, including the casuals. There must be a decent % of these people wanting to fight. Who just want in on the action, but no clans are taking them in.

What you need to do this is basically, a small nucleus, 2-3-4 people who play consistently at the same time of day most days. There are a quite a few regulars in this game. These guys don´t even have to be PvPers all of them, they are just the nucleus of the clan, who organize a bit of practice and some stuff to do together to create some unity. I´ve been in fighting clans where the founder/founders weren´t PvPers or rarely did it, and they worked just fine. They can be farmers or tradeskillers, since having people who can contribute stuff like that to the clan and help others is great for togetherness. The guy who runs the rarepool for instance is often a popular guy on teamspeak and in-game =)

And then you build the casuals, occasional dropins and 2-3 days a week guys around that. And after a little practicing you start picking fights in PP, or give it a go at an OP. I´m certain 17th at least would welcome a mock fight or ten if asked. Let you hack an op so you could practice defending it against us (learning how to use the UG, stopping hacks etc.)

And after doing this for a while you will start to see people gravitating towards the clan, unexperienced and possibly vets, asking to join.

That is how I think it should be done anyways. William, I don´t need your feedback on this, just letting you know.

[William Antrim]

Lol still sore?

Problem with your solution is all the time people do that you're gonna have to account for boredom/quitters and people who want to take a break for real life. If you don't like an alternate opinion you should not be on the forum.

We have all done this recruitment thing to death. The truth is the noobs don't stick around for a bunch of reasons. My solution gives you instant results :) like you wanted.

It amazes me that you guys refuse to accept it. I don't see why YOU can't do this if it is so easy. You've been successful before, clearly you could do so again. Instead of pounding this same old dead horse which everyone knows is just not gonna happen. If it was we wouldn't be in this predicament.


:)

[I See Blue]

Lol still sore?

You seem to have misunderstood why I don´t feel the need to hear what you have to say. You just keep saying the same thing.

"Split up", "you do it", "you fix it", "I´m bored so I can´t do it", "I don´t want to make a effort without you doing it first"

I´ve heard it, thank you. I´m not sore, I´m just bored with what you have to say, as it is contributing nothing.
We have repeatedly told you what you suggest is not an option. We don´t want to split our clan that we worked hard for. So stop suggesting it.

Now, of course there will be setbacks, and not everything will be smooth. I never said it would not take effort. But hey, maybe there is someone playing the game who doesn´t give up as quickly as you. Back in january and given up already, that doesn´t say much for your stamina does it?

The point is, it isn´t our job to organize the opposition against us. There should be other people and clans who want to participate in fights, and there is. But they are currently not getting organized.


I forgot to answer the last one: "If it was we..." You were never in this position, you failed at your attempt. Laughable argument. "If i had a million dollars I would give to charity, but I´m poor and too lazy to earn that million, so I can´t give anything. (It was too boring to work for that million)

Please William, you are not contributing, just go away with your single, often repeated suggestion. This is just trolling, being uncooperative, being a douchebag, call it whatever you want. It isn´t the solution, only you think it is.

[BlueRobot]

Lol still sore?

Problem with your solution is all the time people do that you're gonna have to account for boredom/quitters and people who want to take a break for real life. If you don't like an alternate opinion you should not be on the forum.

We have all done this recruitment thing to death. The truth is the noobs don't stick around for a bunch of reasons. My solution gives you instant results :) like you wanted.

It amazes me that you guys refuse to accept it. I don't see why YOU can't do this if it is so easy. You've been successful before, clearly you could do so again. Instead of pounding this same old dead horse which everyone knows is just not gonna happen. If it was we wouldn't be in this predicament.


:)

Honestly, right now you're just trolling, noone's that dumb/ignorant.

[William Antrim]

If I was trolling I'd have been edited. The fact still remains that from post number one you boys have maintained this attitude that everyone else should do your bidding. I have merely said that they won't just because you say so. This is irrespective of what I or anyone else here has done or said or achieved.

Simply put you are not going to get your wish by simply making a thread about it. It is YOU guys who want this but just demanding it here will not be enough.

I don't see how you fail to see this. It's YOUR thread guys. I don't need to resort to petty flames about people's stamina or any of the other trolling shit you're flinging. If you want to fix this you're gonna have to do it yourselves chaps.

No one here is going to read this thread and say hey that's a good idea. All this posting you're doing is making you all look very silly. You're angry because someone disagreed with you.

Take all the jibes away and that's all this thread is. There just isn't the active forum population or game population to provide you with what you want.

You're gonna have to really put your collective heads together and come up with a better solution than this thread. :)

If you took a minute you'd see I am trying to help you. Not troll you. You want the fun back. I don't see too much constructive discussion other than my suggestion tbh. But hey what do I know :)

[I See Blue]

I call bullshit on that. First post says this:


If you're not a complete douchebag you can have OPs from us and ask us for help with whatever.(You can even use our ts for the start

You see, it wasn´t just the TS, it was just an example. He clearly says with whatever. But you just wanted to be negative, so you didn´t take that part of it into consideration.


I made a post saying we would help too, it´s you who made it into a "you should do it" thing. With you telling us we should split, we should train people up etc.

I have made offers to help people in other threads too, but I know other threads don´t count for you, because that would mean having to be consistent.

Anyway, we´ve asked you nicely to stop posting here, since we don´t feel you are contributing. So why not just do that?

By the way, I did consider your option, and then decided against it. And argued against it, saying the partitions from splitting the clan would end up being to small. As did Ry3ka and Blue Robot. You never answered that. Did you ever consider our options? Asking for help training, help organizing, help with whatever as the original post says? I made a suggestion of how to do it, how we did it. And we managed to get a fighting clan out of it. You were quite negative to that suggestion (and let us remember you failed at doing this)

It´s you who doesn´t seem to understand that this thread was meant as a way to reach out to others who wanted into the op-fighting scene. An offer of help if people wanted it. But instead you wanted to turn it into a negative thing.

It is true I find you a fool and an annoying one at that. But I do pity you your attitude, because I have fun with this game. I fight and lose, and fight and win, and am able to enjoy both. I enjoy helping people out, training with them. I like 1 on 1 fights in neofrag, the rumble in PP, and the OP-fights, and I want to create more of it. By making positive suggestion, and positive actions. Your suggestions is a negative one: "split up", "purge the city mercs", "you create your own opposition".

Why not contribute with positive ways to create more clans? Instead of trying to break up the ones that do function?

Right, that is it for me on trying to show you why you are wrong. At least for this session. I´ll leave you with words of wisdom from my country, since you quoted Shakespeare. These are the words of Odin Allfather, The sayings of the High One.

26.
Ósnotr maðr
þykkisk allt vita,
ef hann á sér í vá veru;
hittki hann veit,
hvat hann skal við kveða,
ef hans freista firar.

27.
Ósnotr maðr,
er með aldir kemr,
þat er bazt, at hann þegi;
engi þat veit,
at hann ekki kann,
nema hann mæli til margt;
veit-a maðr,
hinn er vettki veit,
þótt hann mæli til margt.

26.
The unwise man thinks all to know,
while he sits in a sheltered nook;
but he knows not one thing, what he shall answer,
if men shall put him to proof.

27.
For the unwise man 'tis best to be mute
when he come amid the crowd,
for none is aware of his lack of wit
if he wastes not too many words;
for he who lacks wit shall never learn
though his words flow ne'er so fast.

[William Antrim]

Failed at doing it.... Please stop with these ridiculous flames. They aren't getting anyone anywhere. You don't need to remind me what I said. I can read it for myself or remember it like it was this morning... Oh yes, it was! :)

How about putting the e-penises away for a moment and actually consider how you can encourage more PvP and let's discuss that?

What about an nf tournament? Group games? A league or ladder similar to clanbase in the days of old.

Organise a headline, a couple of referees to remain impartial and a set of rules. Either in nf or at an Op of one teams choosing.

Set some rules - x number of players, no ppus, no stealth for example only. Encourage people to try PvP that way. Get the noobs involved. If any show some promise do the pr thing on them. Money to help set clan up, advice tips and demonstrations on movement and fighting. Encouragement to practice etc.

How would this sound? It's easily done I am sure and would not take long to orchestrate. Minimal administrative function would be needed but someone would need to be responsible for scoring and the only issue I could see would be a visual display of the rankings. However perhaps it could get sponsored by techhaven.org or something.

I dunno I am just brainstorming from experience of playing unreal tournament competitively many years ago.

Hell you could even turn it into a spectator event and charge admission to watch. Make nc a sport. Who woulda thought that huh chaps?

Don't worry, I'll let you use my ideas. :)

[BlueRobot]

I give up. If the mods really think what this dude is doing is on Topic and no flame...
Closed by threadstarter pls

[I See Blue]

Yes, that was a good idea. But the should have been posted in a different thread, "Ask not what your game etc etc" I´ve been planning a PvP tournament, my idea was a setup like the world cup, with some preliminary groups, and then a ladder tournament based on the ranking from the groups. I´ve also toyed with the idea of doing group fights, 3 vs 3 or 4 vs 4, with max 1 ppu, and a king of the hill tournament, where the last man/team standing after a set timelimit wins.

But stay on topic please. You didn´t answer anything as usual. Or post anything relevant to this thread, which isn´t about events, but about encouraging more clans to form and join in the fighting.

[r3yka]

well my god, you actually said something slightly positive :eek: Please now, don't revert back to your pessimistic 'the game's f'd, you guys fix it im playing COD' mentality. yes Will, we are currently cooking up some ideas for some PVP and non PVP events. Our first events were a little under planned, and whilst being fun, were not to their maximal potential so we want to try take our time and put our heads together, and probably contact a GM or to this time.

Hell, if you guys join, it might even end up being a platform for you or some other clans to do some talent spotting. If you haven't completely given up on the idea of making a clan that is.

[Doc Holliday]

WOOOOOOOOOOOO I NEED HEAT 3 AND A RED! STAT!

So around page 2 or 3 I get pulled in to the flame war? I get called pathetic? i get accused of some other stuff too in the wall of text posted by bluerobot despite making 2 previous posts in the thread serving to highlight a few points or agree with a few points raised.


Guys the truth hurts. Blue if your gonna make it about clan vs clan then you already failed in your task to make the thread go somewhere. at the end of the day you were the one in the situation of having no one to fight and now you start belittling one of the clans who at least attempted to fight.

Do you think that will some how want us to come back?

As for the rest of you from 17th why are you tarring me saying this thread wasn't a personal address to me? I never treated it as such merely discussing, agreeing and disagreeing with various points including some i refrained to post publicly but instead said in private i think you shouldn't have posted that bro. I will let you guys decide where that one fell.


So seriously if you are going to make a thread like this be prepared for the backlash and dont go on a huuuuuuuuuuuuuge witch hunt against people who are undeserving of it. You guys got butthurt on the forum by Will. Hes my brother. We are twins (irl) but that isnt me. So watch who you aim the shit flinging at.

Good luck and i hope that you manage to find people to fight against and hopefully one day when the populations pick up again and there are more than about 30 people playing on my night time i too will come to play.

[I See Blue]

Man, I was just gonna go to bed when I saw this. Ah well, it can wait for 5 minutes.

Doc, I do agree that you have not been part of this exchange, and I gotta say most of the time your post are reasonable. I think the reason people tend to lump you and Will together is that well, you back him up. And he spouts a lot of nonsense repetatively in this thread. And he doesn´t seem to respond to arguments against his points, he just harps on. This is the second thread I´ve been in that he has derailed and pulled away from topic. He deliberately ignores what people say basically, and comes with a lot of negativity. And that is a nightmare to have in your threads when you are trying to do something positive for the game

Now you came in first with a decent enough post, about what difficulties you had encountered etc, which I saw as good input. It was clear you tried and found it hard. See, that was the reason for this post in the first place.

Now, the second time you come in, William has worked his negativity a bit more. He is trying to make it about 17th splitting, and organizing the opposition against ourselves, in a post that was an offer to help people building something up. Which is a negative approach, just designed to wind people up. And I am telling him this is not an option, because it would basically land us in the same situation you described in your first post Doc, having big trouble scrounging together a group to practice and fight with. Now Will doesn´t listen, and harps on negatively, and I try to answer him with proper arguments.

Then you come and tell me specifically that I need to back off in the thread and you back him up. And that post sort of lumps you in with him and his viewpoints, in the whole thread, because all you state is that he is right. Not which topic or which of his statements that he makes, just that he is right. You also use a quite extreme example of babysitting new runners, which really isn´t fair to the discussion. To be fair, you state that it is extreme yourself.

And then you say that we refuse to make an alt clan. As if it our responsibility to oppose ourselves? How is this what the post is about? It was an offer of help, with whatever people would need to start a clan and get some PvP going. We did offer to help out, to make an effort. And you and Will make it out like we are the ones who don´t want to help? Will tries to make it out Blue Robot only offered TS help, but he clearly states we are willing to help with whatever, even giving out OPs so they get an easier way into op fighting (easier to defend than attack after all)

So basically, that´s why the guys say you and Will, because you threw your lot in with him. Might not be fair, but you did take sides quite clearly, by saying what Will said is perfectly correct.


As for flaming

You add this tidbit "Its like a drunken husband going crazy and smashing things in an argument with his wife who then ups and leaves and he wakes up to the mess." Clearly aimed at us. Now ain´t that something to say about us as a clan? We broke everything and chased the wife away? And you wonder why people might see that as a flame and send some comments back at you? Please, you know better than that.

In addition you also add get off the high horse and then back off for the second time, which again, are negative descriptions of me.

In short, we didn´t get butthurt by Will, he just repeated the same point over and over without making a genuine argument for it until it became really annoying. I explained how it wasn´t viable, yet he kept on. He even kept on when I asked him nicely to stop, since we didn´t feel he was contributing. And he kept it up. As for you, you backed him up, and threw some stuff around too, so don´t act like you are all innocent here.

Now, I´ve had respect for what you posted before on the forums, but this one is just off the mark. Brother or no, you still gotta see right from wrong, and be tough enough to stand up to him and say it. As you indeed seem to imply that you did with the personal message. This was an offer of help from 17th, and you guys treated it like it was a demand, you read into it what you wanted to read. William especially, but you too, since you backed his bullshit up.

Now, just for a little extra poke: In your 2nd post, you name us ninjaing as a reason why you quit. Yet in the post William famously made, where he treathened to take our ops away if we didn´t do what he said, he clearly states that ninjaing is fair game. It´s ok by you guys. In fact you say reply this in the thread: "So everyone cries ninja. everyone cries in general. "

[-AB-]

Reges eos in virga ferrea tamquam vas figuli confringes eos

[Juppe]

I cant understand why all of you so mad at will..if he give you suggestions for your problem you could have just said thank you for your input but our clan isnt big enough to split or whatever. Nobody here said you should split the clan..it was only suggestion which lead to 4page topic with huuuuge walls of text saying nothing and gettin at will.. Cool thread guys. Nice conversation aye? I believe forums are meant for conversation. You shouldt take it personally, its not like someone said your mom is fat or anything..

[William Antrim]

I will continue to express my views in my polite and very logical style whilst ever I am able. I don't need to rage, call in my friends or belittle and flame anyone.

You asked for suggestions and help on how to improve the game. I gave you two. One you liked and one you didn't. I'm not the one with a problem here guys.

You all are. You need to step back and read this thread as a neutral outsider because it is doing nothing good for you. I keep saying it because it is true. I don't really care that you don't like it. It doesn't make it false. We are all allowed to express our opinions.

If you get so wound up maybe you should try to relax before replying. All I have done is disagree with you and you guys have turned into raging monsters. No need. :)

As for the PvP idea. Great stuff. I hope it works.

But please understand the basics of human psychology. If there was someone in the game with the drive, passion and motivation to do as you ask they would've done it by now.

If the Op fighting clans of old (who know how all this stuff works) can't be arsed to come and fight you then why would a bunch of noobs want to try straight out of the box.

You're asking the impossible right now. Nc is not pick up and play PvP. Lots of other games are. The casuals go there. Everyone else is waiting for Sparta. :)

[William Antrim]

I cant edit previous post.

This is a long one.


I am going to clarifiy my position in the most respectful, thoughtful and descriptive manner I can.


Ok here goes:


You guys (17th) offered to help a new clan out, you offered TS, OPs, Training and all the logistical support.

You missed out on the leadership. This is where your idea will fall down.

1. You quoted the server pops at peak time as being 10-15% (lets say 150 people) but you posted this in the english section. So we need to estimate that that figure drops by half. Just for round figures. Then you can drop that figure by half at least for the amount who bother to read the forum.

So you have a pool of around 75 people at maximum to pick from. (30 odd on the forum?)

2. Neocrons population is aging. We are all fans of the game but we are all getting older and getting on with our lives. Some people play nightly, some once a week. If you are going to get an op fighting team together in a short space of time you need to have a group of 6 (ideally minimum in my opinion) to get a good fight. Then the other team has to get the same for the fight. How often does this happen?

3. The casuals just wont cut it at op fights. Sure its nice to have them when youre in a clan 25 strong (as you rightly said) but you need the core players.

4. Leading from 2 and 3 how often in a given space of time do you manage to achieve these numbers? And you guys are experienced in op fights. Think double that time to train new people. Months potentially. 2 or 3 or more even.

5. Boredom - casual pvp this isnt. During that time 2-3 months or whatever you need a good leader to keep everyone together. Or a group of leaders. Is that person in nc? I dont know. However there will always be people coming and going from that group. In a group so small and so in need of practice do you think that it can afford to be down 20-40% of its core when it needs to train?


6. Losing - Nobody likes losing, fact. Goes hand in hand with boredom. People will leave. RL issues get in the way (like they did in my case) and people leave for various reasons. New games even come out catering to the casual pvper (ESO anyone? if the devs there can understand that there is a market for casual pvpers then how comes you guys cant see it?).

7. The snowball effect. As people start to leave more will leave. They see less and less people wanting to turn up, train and fight then they too decide its time to go.

8. The lack of person (people) at the top to keep this all together, the nucleus of GOOD pvpers that keep the rest logging on. Where are they?


So in short you failed to account for we call the Human terrain. The above are all psychological reasons in basic human nature why people just wont pick up and do what you want them to do because you made a thread about it.

Look at yourselves. You flame the shit out of me because I am in opposition to you. What makes you think anyone else will want to come in for that kind of fire?

Look how many people ACTUALLY posted in your thread? Apart from Doc and me....a few others? Hudsonbeck is the only one contributing ideas. I know he is new to the game and is just getting back in because we have spoken about it plenty on PM.

The others just wonder why youre so inflammatory.

So I refer you back to my original idea.

With said idea you have the majority of those points covered - leadership, experience, initiative, equipment etc.

You asked the rest of the server to step up and give you a fight? What right do you have to do that?

I asked you to step up and help them and you flame me for having the balls to say so?

Not one of you thus far has given me a decent answer to my question. YOU guys want this to happen so why cant YOU be the ones to make it happen? What makes you think anyone else is going to?

Based on the replies in this thread and the amount of people who bothered to post it doesnt seem like anyone really cares about your lack of opposition.

I think this is quite sad the way this thread has ended tbh. I gave you two good solid ideas and you boys tried to nail me to the cross with them. :)

I keep repeating them because I would like someone to give me a solid answer as to why YOU cant try to fix the server? Because youve done it before? recruiting the power house that is 17th today?

Do you actually realise that all you have done is recruit almost ALL of the active op fighting community so that there really ISNT anyone left to recruit for ANOTHER clan? Thats the reason why you have made this thread?

That's the point I am trying to get across but you guys are too set in your ways, narrow-minded possibly even blind to see it? This is not a flame. It is a genuine question. As I have made all through the thread. You see 15% online in this game and you think it must mean there are over 100 people ready to fight why havent they?

I have been in this situation before - at the end of NC1 we faced a similar problem, people quitting due to lack of pvp, waiting on NC2 and DOY coming out, it happened on Terra too. People tired of hackers etc. People vote with their feet.

You guys cant see that or dont want to? I am not sure which it is but please stop with the flaming. It just makes you look really bad and makes people give even less of a fuck about what you actually want to say.

Take my posts out and this thread wouldnt even make two pages. It would've sank to the bottom of the forum and been forgotten about long ago.


Peace gents


W

[BlueRobot]

I'm not even goint to read that bs by William anymore. Sorry hes your brother Doc but the amount of effort he puts into trolling here indicates that his rl/NC involvement are kind of out of balance.


If you're not a complete douchebag you can have OPs from us and ask us for help with whatever.(You can even use our ts for the start)


This is where i made clear I'm not interested in discussing Williams E-Penis but rather want new guys who might not know enough about the game to start a clan on their own.

[I See Blue]

I will continue to express my views in my polite and very logical style whilst ever I am able. I don't need to rage, call in my friends or belittle and flame anyone.

LMAO. You are a long way from being polite in this thread, as for logic, you don´t seem very interested discussing. I and others repeatedly tell you that the suggestion you made is not going to happen. And explain to you why. And you had Doc come in to back you up, it´s just that you have less people connected to you playing the game/using forums currently.

The last post here is one of the few times you actually back up your statements with your reasoning. It is flawed in my opinion, you change about what you have said before, and you contradict yourself, but at least you are arguing your point for once. Sadly, your negative attitude before this makes me very reluctant to answer you, since I think you will just drift back into name calling and negativity.

[BlueRobot]

Its pointless. Most of his bullshit already got proven wrong but he just posts 2 more pages of off-topic spam and then posts it again.

[William Antrim]

Lol yeah ok chaps. I dont need anyone to back me up. If you cant see reason then I cant help you. At the end of the day its like this; you can listen to alternative points of view or you can continue to flame.

Either way you arent going to get the fights that you so desperately want and the situation in the game is not going to get any better.

I have not once contradicted myself, changed what I said or flamed any of you. All you do with these continuous posts is make yourselves look even more silly than you managed previously.

You have not proved any "bullshit" yet.

People connected to me? I dont need to go asking the guys in my clan to back em up. Some of them already have expressed their own opinions, here and elsewhere. We have discussed this privately prior to this thread coming up. I am safe in the knowledge that I speak for myself and I know that others have agreed by the fact that they arent here any more.

I havent yet called anyone names. You chaps seem incapable of having a normal conversation (both of you) but therein lies your greatest weakness. I dont understand how you expect to make this game better when you cant even hold a mature, reasonable discussion.

So far all you have done is call an alternate point of view bullshit, flame some more and then get riled up a lot. How is any of that of benefit to anyone?

If you guys can try your best to actually address some of the points you might find some proper discussion takes place but if you continue to post in the manner you are then you will see that the forum population will tune you out, just as people in the game have left and cant be bothered to fight you any more.

The fact is, everyone else got bored of fighting in nc, you are the only ones left and you want someone else to fix it. Someone else wont do that so either you chaps do it or noone does. You have very high opinions of yourselves it seems presently but I think in time when you realise that as the population dwindles and the fights happen less and less I hope that you will at least try to change things. I hope that by then its just not too late.

I feel sorry for you tbh. You're just sitting there waiting for someone else to step up but noone else is going to. There is no benefit in it to them, no reward. You want the benefit but you dont want to put the work in.


Good luck all the same.

[Doc Holliday]

when you cut down to the bone in this thread the one thing that absolutely rings true is there is one quick fix solution to your troubles with lack of opponents. Making an alt clan. THAT friends is a fact. Its the best and quickest fix.


The question is do you want to play the long game (training up people and waiting for them to develop) or the short game (quick fights like tomorrow)

You guys have vehemently denied you will split up the clan in 17th so that truthfully leaves you with the other option of the long game and hoping someone will some how pull together a clan and provide opposition to you.

Remember here its YOU who made this thread and rightly or wrongly on the 2 options William has a very valid point. Just because you dont like how he addresses it doesnt mean its NOT a valid point. It is a solution to your woes which is lack of competitive pvp in neocron currently.

Its all very well and chivalric of you to offer resources etc but the biggest resource you need is man power. There doesnt seem to be much of that available. it is the scarce resource here.

So what happens next. Well you can go on waiting for something to happen a clan to magically spring up and provide the opposition you need (if you didnt need it there wouldnt be this flame war thinly disguised as a thread) and make a kickstart to the op scene.

Now in the real world we all know this wont happen over night. So what happens then. If boredom truly sets in how many members do you think you guys might lose? Honestly. boredom sets in and people vote with their feet (as you have already stated with the likes of LG/Tasa et al disappearing)

So then what. Its an uphill battle however you cut it to get this jump started and one thing i have noted from some of your own posting and wills dissection of said posts is that you do seem to want someone else to do the heavy lifting so to speak. The adamant refusal to even start a seperate clan as a trainer clan or anything of the like (think baseball and farm teams) has been smacked down harder than a red headed step child.

All it leaves is a ghost town of a server in the op fight scene.

Ps. If you really were serious about getting something like this off the ground i dont feel THIS forum was the best place to use it. As a non german speaker (at least natively) i cant account for how well it would have been received there but here there is such a tiny amount of regular postings it seemed like a massive miscalculation in my eyes. Then again when you are desperate and passionate enough to start this up in the first place you have to give anything a shot right.

Drachen nailed it with his sig. fix the community. The shit flinging in this thread and all the hyberbole, vitriol and outright rhetoric really needs to get culled fast if you really want to fix it.

Zoltans post was on the money about the win at all costs attitude.

I feel having read through the last five pages of essentially horseshit for discussion on all sides that if our clan even tried to begin again op fighting and do everything you have asked for in the opening post and attempt to contend that i cannot be sure you wont use every single dirty trick in the book to squash us because you have a serious beef with Will. Thats the truth.

I do recall being told by a good friend of mine who has, i believe, an alt in your clan because he joined when we were all away some six months ago that despite us being inactive we were KOS. :)

I think that probably rings even more true now than ever.

I promised myself i wouldn't even bother to add any more to this thread but I felt compelled all the same just to give one more attempt to try and steer it in to logic.

Now that there are a great many posts from a big part of your clan maybe between you and the rest of the forum here a logical and feasible solution can be found.

Now lets see if you can keep the petty insults out of it all bluerobot (yes im talking to you directly) because your wall of text about us quitting because we got owned was very wide of the mark and also hilariously funny and mildly immature. I didnt come to the forum and make the thread you did but i am offering to at least try and put forth a reasonable discussion. I realise you cant edit that post any more but maybe you can come back with something reasonable in recompense.

I am now hoping for a new patch in the future to hopefully draw in new/old players again and maybe this discussion can go away as everyone gets back to piew piewing and not QQing.

[William Antrim]

I just wish they would read posts before dismissing them in anger.

I don't see it happening though. Too much rage and hate.

It's actually quite sad that you can't have a mature discussion. I even laid out my points with numbers so you could keep track better. But still. We should all get on teamspeak together and chat about it like real men. Better still, get together over a beer and have a proper chat. :)


I'd just love to know what caused the rage so much tbh.

[Doc Holliday]

sorry. just wanted to add on re-reading the last post by me when i meant you i meant you or whom ever else can feasibly start up a decent clan to contend for ops. I dont know of any currently but maybe Black cartel can give you a fight in absence of all other opposition.

[-AB-]

The others just wonder why youre so inflammatory.


true


I'm not even goint to read that bs by William anymore.

:rolleyes:


sorry.

nps

[Manuel Moonez]

Ciudad is very active, i don't really consider the OP scene to be dead at all. They fight without rules and moan a lot, true, but atleast they're giving us some real fights when they're not ninjaing after most of our guys went to bed. They might not be at our size atm, but they are very active so make up for that fact. As one of the oldest clans on the new server we've got lots of dead names in our list as well... We're having more fights with them around than what we had with the other, now dead clans.

[I See Blue]

Ok, I´ll leave it at this. I think this has descended to far into toxic attitudes.

The reason for my hostility to William is simple. He refuses to take into consideration my points, but expects me to take into consideration his.

He claims we are stubborn and unwilling to accept his suggestion of us splitting, yet he is equally unwilling to let it drop when we told his that this would not happen. Now, we, the clan 17th, are the ones who can put his suggestion into action, and we don´t want to do it as we feel it is the wrong option. William can in no way put into action what he suggests, as he has no control over 17th. Yet he refuses to accept that we don´t want to split our clan. Which is disrespectful to me.

In fact, this is the second thread were he has gone off-topic and put forward his suggestion of us splitting. We made it clear in the last thread that it wouldn´t be happening. So why would he introduce it here, if not to try to inflame us again.


In addition, he claims to value action over words. Yet what actions is he willing to do in-game to improve the game right now? NONE. And in a thread where we offer help he has the gall to accuse us of not wanting to do anything to improve how things are at the moment.

And when it comes to action, there is another thing to mention. In all of Williams suggestions, where is ever he willing to do something? Instead he just comes to criticize those who want to do something in-game. He has no faith in the current population to create something (this is quite clear from his posts). This is hardly a compliment to the dedicated players who are actually playing the game, instead of doing what he does, which is just write on forums. His assumption being I think, that since he failed miserable at his attempt (which did require effort and some bravery in coming out as hard as he did), everyone else is doomed to do the same.

We offered help and guidance, which shows we are willing to do stuff to make things improve. William just comes with negativity, misrepresentation of other peoples statements and veers the thread out of topic. Onto a suggestion we in 17th already in another thread have stated will not happen. And yet he brings it up again to provoke us when we are just trying to create something positive in-game.

His actions speak for themselves, he is a forum warrior. He would rather contribute here than in-game. He wants others to make the effort to improve the game while he just sits and talks.

And if you want proof, read the thread he made called "Open you outposts please" Here he demands all outpost GRs opened, or he will come with his mighty force and take them from us. Mighty words indeed.

Result? A few weeks later he gave up, quit the game and returned to the forums. How is that for actions speak louder than words?

So, in conclusion, I will cease answering Williams posts, and ignore his answers to mine. By doing this I hope to elevate the lv of discussion. William has good ideas sometimes, I have no problem saying that. But his attitude bothers me. He has problems accepting what he can´t influence, and problems letting go of unwanted suggestions. And he is unable to move on, and leave a discussion where he is continually off-topic.

Even when asked nicely he won´t leave it alone. So I´m done with him in the forums. In-game, well, we will see if he comes back. He is by no means KoS to me, as I don´t know his characters, or if he has a character named William Antrim.

I think it is sad that Regulators left, and I understand the reasons Doc stated. I still think you should have given it a go for longer. And maybe not started it of with such a high goal as Williams thread. It´s tough getting things going.

Now, I am just waiting for my plane to bring me home so I can get back to playing Neocron (and my gf. And work for that matter, money is running low). And on tuesday I will be back doing my best to make the game a more fun place to be.

William? He will be here on the forums, typing out words. Remember what you said Will? Actions speak louder than words...

[William Antrim]

Lol I'm flattered. I listened to your points and I disagreed. I pointed out the flaws also. It hasn't descended into toxicity. You esteemed gentlemen have been toxic throughout. If someone else had posted the same stuff you wouldn't be half as annoyed. However you got on your high horses a plenty.

You clearly have no idea what you're talking about with respect to me. You clearly haven't taken anything I said into account and you're clearly just gonna be banging your head against a wall for quite some time to come.

I don't give a shit about your clan. It means nothing to me. Clans come and go. The facts as i see them remain the same as ever.

Zoltan posted some of the same things I've said to you but I don't see you flaming him.

Any attempts to bait me will not work. I'm just glad to express my views to people who will listen to them and take note. I do not post here for the good of your clan, been here too long to remember all the names. Yours is just another.

I post here for the good of the game as a whole. My entire thought process is geared towards that. I love this game. You are just another bunch of players. It matters not what you think, feel or say.


You're sadly mistaken if you think I want your clan to fail. I want you to behave like adults only but it seems impossible to ask for.

It's a shame but hey that's life. As for opinions and views yeah you might not like mine. So what? This is a forum. That's where we exchange our views.

I keep replying because you keep flaming, even in this thread - what's this about coming out? Are you implying something?

Tbh as I previously stated. I pity you all for ruining the game. Your clan can't accept a viewpoint that does not sit with your members and you have some of the whiniest people to grace this forum in it.

You can't argue your points without personal insults and you just end up looking really really stupid. A lot of your Bs shoulda been kept in game but as I said all you want to do is flame on and look stupid. There are no ego wars to win here.

I've kept on topic all through the thread. Nobody is going to do as you ask, you will have to do it yourself.

Good luck all the same. I really hope you're successful. I doubt you will be but I hope it all the same.

[gstyle40]

His actions speak for themselves, he is a forum warrior. He would rather contribute here than in-game. He wants others to make the effort to improve the game while he just sits and talks.

And if you want proof, read the thread he made called "Open you outposts please" Here he demands all outpost GRs opened, or he will come with his mighty force and take them from us. Mighty words indeed.

Result? A few weeks later he gave up, quit the game and returned to the forums. How is that for actions speak louder than words?


and that thread was about the liberation of ops, mind u all of the ops regs ever controlled were locked ALWAYS....we always found that funny that they were talking all this liberation of ops on the forums for travelers to be able to see the world and explore only to find their ops always locked....made us chuckle.

just goes to show that whats said on the forums isnt always the case ingame.

and one other thing. as manu said earlier, we get all the fights we want from the tsu clan. last week they logged on something like 14 players, they had 5 ppu lol. the point here is that we keep getting people asking us to join 17th because other clans for whatever reason wont take them. we dont need anymore, and neither do the tsu clan to be honest.

when it comes to helping the server, we do our part. we organize fights with some of the smaller clans to give them experience. i cant tell u how much gear sxr has lost because of people coming and going. its laughable. and personally i give away stuff that i no longer need to complete strangers all the time....but none of that is why this post is here. the problem is not a lack of op fighting for us, we fight all the time, the problem is that there are alot of unclanned runners looking for clans and the smaller clans dont want them because they arent "seasoned" enough.

if we take them in, i think we all know what the outcome is so i wont go there. black cartel, regs, the 2 tg clans that surfaced in the last couple weeks, and the nc1 clan that i see blue helped found are where these unclanned guys need to be looking to go, and those smaller clans shouldnt be turning them away imo.

oh and the most we've ever had on since ive been here is 14 not all at the same time, but throughout the day. 11 at once. if u cut that in half, u have at the most 7 throughout the day, and maybe 5 at once. sorry, but that may be enough to fight the lil guys, but tsu can log on 14 different people, so can lg and tasa when they log on. it would kill our clan, and essentially kill opfighting as a whole.

[Doc Holliday]

and that thread was about the liberation of ops, mind u all of the ops regs ever controlled were locked ALWAYS

wrong. they were opened. If they were closed its because we were all hiding in the ug scared that the big bad pkers were coming. Or it was merely an oversight that the security was not changed if it had been locked for a valid reason.

Mace if all these other clans come back like tasa etc then you could always move your guys back. It was a valid point.

What needs to happen is a new clan starts up or a patch that draws in the old ones like infected etc.


As for you i see blue i did say you should take a step back from the thread because it seems william really has gotten right up your nose. Your last post was an entire diatribe about what he is or isnt, has or has not done. Its actually fuckin hilarious.


The only thing more funny is manuels apparent contradiction in this thread. By saying the op scene is not dead contradicts this entire forum gangster flame war thread. So im not sure who looks more foolish right now.

Him for saying it or you guys for all jumping in to put the boot in in any way you can on william while letting the thread drag on six pages without any real tangible progress.

On top of that he goes on to say Cuidad or pricks or what ever they are called now arent actually as big as 17th which further fuels the arguement that maybe you guys should split down a bit and then recruit some noobs each and train them up so you can have your fights and not come to the forums and make whiny threads and then flame as hard as you can when someone says errr actually i think this.

final point seeing how it keeps popping up but did any of you ever consider that the "open the ops" thread served a bigger purpose than to be portrayed as a mere threat which didnt happen. I think most of you took it at face value but did you not stop to consider it at least sparked some more intelligent debate than this thread when it was drawn out in to a proper discussion. In that it served its purpose no? (added to which i did say earlier in the thread we couldnt truly be bothered to twat about dual logging hackers when we had maybe a maximum of 4 online and not all with clanned hackers.)


GG boys.

So truthfully what have you actually achieved other than showing you all care about either A your sig/clan/logo or B neocron with a whole lot of text thats been thrown at this thread.

[William Antrim]

I love how they keep saying I failed tbh. I haven't failed yet. No one else could be arsed to fight you so they all quit. I stand by my original statement. PvP in this game is sadly lacking and that has caused the problems evident here.

You guys are just too angry to see it and that is sad. The other thread you keep referring to did indeed serve it's purpose and it did it magnificently. Sadly you gents can't see past the end of your noses it seems. A crying shame for such hardcore vets.

None of those unclanned players read this forum so how is this thread gonna help em mace?

You guys as a clan need to get on the same page cos you're making each other just look stupid with your egotistical bullshit. :)

If they are clambering to join why don't you all take my advice and turn em into hardcore pvpers like you did with 17th? You clearly have the skills and resources like you keep telling us.

[gstyle40]

wrong. they were opened. If they were closed its because we were all hiding in the ug scared that the big bad pkers were coming. Or it was merely an oversight that the security was not changed if it had been locked for a valid reason.

sigh.....of course they were :/ kind of sounds like the same reason we said our ops were closed in that other thread, the same thread that some people said that we should just run from other ops to defend and such. so i guess whats good for the goose isnt always good for the gander? meh, whatever.



On top of that he goes on to say Cuidad or pricks or what ever they are called now arent actually as big as 17th which further fuels the arguement that maybe you guys should split down a bit and then recruit some noobs each and train them up so you can have your fights and not come to the forums and make whiny threads and then flame as hard as you can when someone says errr actually i think this.

when i see blue left for vacation cuidad didnt have the numbers they have now. like i said earlier they had 14 at an op fight last week when we oould only muster up 8. 17th have never had 5 ppu's at an op fight, cuidad did last week. it was insane lol 5 ppus? really? i guess ill log on cuidad/pricks ts and tell them they need to split up and start recruiting the unclanned guys cuz thats the best we could come up with on the forums. they will ask me why, and ill say simply, "cuz william and doc said so"

[Doc Holliday]

Tell them to come to the forum and make a whiney thread about it too.....

[BlueRobot]

Tell them to come to the forum and make a whiney thread about it too.....

You and your weirdo brother are the only ones here who spend more time on the forum whining/trying to troll than ingame.

I really don't know what you guys are trying to prove here, since noone is buying your shit anyway. I guess the butthurt is just still real.

[Doc Holliday]

This thread is way more fun than playing the game right now and I already told you I'm out for a while till the pops pick up but please keep the childish flames coming.

[William Antrim]

Weirdo brother please.


Got a problem getting beat in the game so you want some noobs to stomp? Then you come to the forum and get stomped by cold logic and then get your clannies to back you up?

Sounds about right to me. I guess you're just lacking the social skills to conduct any kind of reasonable discussion. All you're doing is still making yourself look like a complete tool.

What do you actually want to achieve with this thread because so far all it has done is make you look like a bunch of internet commandos.

You can't hold a decent discussion in any language so you flame.

I love this thread it has given me endless amusement because you still think it means something to say nasty stuff to people because they have shown you up.

Please continue. You're hilarious and pathetic at the same time.

[William Antrim]

Weirdo brother please.


Got a problem getting beat in the game so you want some noobs to stomp? Then you come to the forum and get stomped by cold logic and then get your clannies to back you up?

Sounds about right to me. I guess you're just lacking the social skills to conduct any kind of reasonable discussion. All you're doing is still making yourself look like a complete tool.

What do you actually want to achieve with this thread because so far all it has done is make you look like a bunch of internet commandos.

You can't hold a decent discussion in any language so you flame.

I love this thread it has given me endless amusement because you still think it means something to say nasty stuff to people because they have shown you up.

Please continue. You're hilarious and pathetic at the same time.

[BlueRobot]

Got a problem getting beat in the game so you want some noobs to stomp? Then you come to the forum and get stomped by cold logic and then get your clannies to back you up?

http://extreme.pcgameshardware.de/attachments/697420d1384964110-diskussionsthread-amd-mantle-auswirkungen-auf-spieleleistung-dafuq-.jpg

It just dosn't make sense to talk to you if you make up stuff all the time...

[Doc Holliday]

http://i.imgur.com/3b1E4Jc.jpg

[William Antrim]

You're not talking anyway. None of you are. You're just making up shit all day long and attempting to flame/troll. Essentially you don't like being told what to do, but this is what you tried to do to everyone else with the original thread.

The thing is you can't flame me personally because you're too bad at it and I just let it roll right past me but it is funny to keep reiterating the valid and constructive posts I made on account of how mad you all get.

You guys are a joke. Your whole attitude in this thread is a joke and it's a wonder you're still here tbh.

If all these noobs flock to your clan asking to join like moths to a flame as you told us all so proudly then you should be advising them in the game on how to go about setting up this uber clan you feel nc needs.

I can already see for a fact that it won't happen just due to my worldly wise experience of these matters. When Sparta comes the good PvP clans will come back and you will most likely fade back into obscurity.

Until then I bid you all a very good day and I hope you enjoy your time "at the top of your game".

It's a shame you're so incredibly ignorant generally but I guess like attracts like.

Have fun boys. Much love to you all :)

[-AB-]

You're not talking anyway. None of you are. You're just making up shit all day long and attempting to flame/troll. Essentially you don't like being told what to do, but this is what you tried to do to everyone else with the original thread.

...

You guys are a joke. Your whole attitude in this thread is a joke and it's a wonder you're still here tbh.

...

I can already see for a fact that it won't happen just due to my worldly wise experience of these matters. When Sparta comes the good PvP clans will come back and you will most likely fade back into obscurity.

Until then I bid you all a very good day and I hope you enjoy your time "at the top of your game".

It's a shame you're so incredibly ignorant generally but I guess like attracts like.



true dat man.

[Zoltan]

Close reqested by thread starter.