View Full Version : Limit stealth to 10 seconds?
William Antrim
07-03-14, 10:59
I think we should limit stealth to ten seconds for Spies and 5 seconds for PEs.
It shouldnt be used as a get out of jail free card. It should be used as a defensive measure only. It gets you out of a tight spot and allows you a little breathing room when you get jumped.
APUs dont get stealth and have the most similar defence to the spy.
It should not be used as a tool that people rely on to hide and win op fights as it currently is.
Stealth whoring and safezone hugging are the two things that are killing real pvp.
As there is currently a lack of pvp outside of Op fights I have noticed that this problem has become all the more emphasised. Everyone is doing it. It just sucks the life out of the game.
It is not the stealth duration that is a problem - it is the context it is being used in.
Probably not as easy to implement, but I would prefer a solution that does not cripple stealth in general, but makes it unviable to use it in close combat. There is nothing "stealthy" in an open gunfight.
Your angry because you jumped someone and he got away? Why don’t we give you guys an freeze everything button so no one can get away any more.
There are Runners out there they don’t do PvP. And you take away there defences.
I think it should be harder to kill not more easy.
I think we should limit stealth to ten seconds for Spies and 5 seconds for PEs.
Its already 5 seconds for PE's, is it not?
What would you do to all the tiers of stealth tools if something like were to be implemented?
It shouldnt be used as a get out of jail free card. It should be used as a defensive measure only. It gets you out of a tight spot and allows you a little breathing room when you get jumped.
Personally I mainly use Jones stealth on my spies. I only use my Stealth2 if Im on very low health and/or Im the only person left alive.
APUs dont get stealth and have the most similar defence to the spy.
APU's are not balanced AT ALL currently, so it doesnt really matter... Besides APU's have much worse resists than (most) spies.
It should not be used as a tool that people rely on to hide and win op fights as it currently is.
If it was any different everyone would bring 3 PPU's (to hack the 3 first layers) and a hacknet character, and then tanks for the rest.
A spy cannot win over a tank in a "fair fight".
Stealth whoring and safezone hugging are the two things that are killing real pvp.
No, lack of players is what is killing "real pvp".
As there is currently a lack of pvp outside of Op fights I have noticed that this problem has become all the more emphasised. Everyone is doing it. It just sucks the life out of the game.
Yes a spy have to stealth to survive... Dont like it? Bring AoE.
Doc Holliday
07-03-14, 15:00
Your angry because you jumped someone and he got away? Why don’t we give you guys an freeze everything button so no one can get away any more.
There are Runners out there they don’t do PvP. And you take away there defences.
I think it should be harder to kill not more easy.
didnt you say you dont pvp? just a question not a flame.
a trade skiller stealth tool that requires a tradeskill could be implemented for them. as it is its a fair point to raise by the OP.
A spy shouldnt be able to go toe to toe with a tank. balance should define roles so the pe becomes the tougher fighter than the spy and fills the role the spy currently fills. IMO.
@Doc Holliday
That’s true, I don’t do PvP. I’m a Conster. I need stealth to get away from these douche bags trying to kill me. Because they are to cowardly to fight an equal opponent.
A trade skiller stealth tool that requires a tradeskill is an good idea.
This discussion is just stupid because everyone who's at least kind of good in pvp with a spy doesn't use any stealth that lasts longer than 10 seconds anyway.
There are also a lot of other factors not considered like AoE (counterplay to stealth if you know how) and Spy vs Tank balance(Spy would be nerfed to uselessness without stealth) etc.
Please take a little more time for thinking and cooling down (maybe even do somne testing/research if balance related) before making posts in the future William, because it seems you're at least trying to make a reasonable point sometimes.
I understand the frustration but don't agree with nerfing stealth. If the netcode wasn't what it was, you'd be able to follow the stealth cloud more reliably. That should be enough, in a perfect world.
A spy shouldnt be able to go toe to toe with a tank. balance should define roles so the pe becomes the tougher fighter than the spy and fills the role the spy currently fills. IMO.
No spies shouldnt be able to go toe to toe with a tank.. Thats why they have their stealth.
All spies should be tradeskillers or snipers? Or what would you like spies role to be?
I understand the frustration but don't agree with nerfing stealth. If the netcode wasn't what it was, you'd be able to follow the stealth cloud more reliably. That should be enough, in a perfect world.
^^That.
Doc Holliday
08-03-14, 03:44
No spies shouldnt be able to go toe to toe with a tank.. Thats why they have their stealth.
All spies should be tradeskillers or snipers? Or what would you like spies role to be?
Something more midrange than current. Hackers etc. they are smaller and weaker and should fulfil a different role on the battlefield. I wouldnt remove stealth completely but i would change it if it was up to me. The stealth combined with a team looking after the spies so they arent the be all and end all of op fights would be nice. The reason behind it is it brings the private eye back in and fits him in behind the tank as a more resilient fighter than the spy (armour/resists) but he wont ever be the true hacker for an op because of his lower int and necessity of weapon lore.
Its not too much to ask i dont think. spies should be more like apus as in high damage but lower survivability. The ability to track a spy despite his stealth would be better. If it was more of a distortion and less of full invisibility this would be good too. imo.
Im not saying hit the spy with the nerf bat hard but i am saying it should be reduced somewhat to help bring the pe in to a fight more than is currently. Given the spy class and his high intel he should be the hacker imo.
Something more midrange than current. Hackers etc. they are smaller and weaker and should fulfil a different role on the battlefield. I wouldnt remove stealth completely but i would change it if it was up to me. The stealth combined with a team looking after the spies so they arent the be all and end all of op fights would be nice.
So pistol spies is your problem?
As BlueRobot already mentioned, no spy with respect for himself uses a long stealth, unless its needed.
I see more and more tanks going to opfights.. Myself included - I wont go on spy unless Im NEEDED for hacking.
My tank is SO much more powerfull. Insane resists, as high damage as a pistol spy (if not higher), and with some clipping between clannies and teamwork, insanely hard to kill.
The reason behind it is it brings the private eye back in and fits him in behind the tank as a more resilient fighter than the spy (armour/resists) but he wont ever be the true hacker for an op because of his lower int and necessity of weapon lore.
Its not too much to ask i dont think. spies should be more like apus as in high damage but lower survivability. The ability to track a spy despite his stealth would be better. If it was more of a distortion and less of full invisibility this would be good too. imo.
I would love PE's to be viable in opfights again aswell. But as it currently is, they have a lower resist cap than spies (for whatever dumbass reason), and their damage is obviously very bad compared to both spies and tanks.
Switch the resist caps around on PE/spy would do quite a lot.. Next problem is being able to REACH that cap as a PE. With MC5's having such a high DEX req it is very hard to make a setup with good resists, while still being able to use anything usefull.
Obviously theres the SWAT rifle/2 resistor chip setup. But other than that, pretty much all PE setups are just bad compared to what is possible for spies.
I do agree that Spy is a class that can do everything atm. High damage, good resists and being able to hack.
A change to STEALTH wont change that though.
Im not saying hit the spy with the nerf bat hard but i am saying it should be reduced somewhat to help bring the pe in to a fight more than is currently. Given the spy class and his high intel he should be the hacker imo.
I still dont see how changing STEALTH would change this?
William Antrim
08-03-14, 08:44
Sorry but I dont post angry.
Veno - im not gonna justify you with anything other than this response. This is the brainport. We leave our egos at the door here.
AS for the spies comments about self respecting spies etc. Sorry gents but that doesnt wash with me. I had a pvp spy before stealth came along and yes it was bloody tough to play solo but in a group with ppu buffs it was as good as any other char. Even better in many cases due to the better weapons available.
Walker I see your points but I am sorry I respectfully disagree. Im not gonna go dissecting your entire post but your first line contradicts itself, the first paragraph is about player skill on a tank - not actually anything to do with spies and then you go OT with Doc discussing PEs.
IMO the classes should be balanced across the board and stealth should not even be in nc. It isnt needed. If everyone had a resist boost and damage reduction in line with TL then the TTK would higher. (Time to kill).
With that then sorted then people would resort to pulling out their guns, or keeping an eye on local to avoid getting ganked. Like it used to be. Not running around with a stealth tool out (as it is now).
bluerobot, try rereading your post and then come back with something less inflammatory, all 3 lines are just meh.... I cant even begin to discuss anything with that kind of post.
The game pop is dwindling. I came back to play in early january with huge optimism for it after an extended period away. I did some exploring. I did some fighting.
I was hoping Pepper Park would be more lively but the pvp in this game is just getting worse. I see this as one of the largest contributors to that problem. Its more of a dick tease than a real fight these days.
Hence the reason for the thread. I dont need to do any "research" I can already see it with my own eyes. I can do the sums. Holy heal and 10 seconds in stealth and most people are fully healed. I know this.
I am thinking of the good of the game. not the good one of one class/clan/player.
I hope MY post didnt sound angry?
It wasent ment like that, at all..
As it currently is, spies and tanks are the two only balanced classes for PvP.
Removing stealth from spies would fuck that up bigtime.
After some serious balancing, sure, remove the longer stealth's.
Or better yet, do something to balance stealth.
But saying that spies should be mid/longrange fighter is just silly.
All PvP happens in close range (not counting the snipers, that are only able to kill afk people).
It has been like that for all the time I've been playing NC (since 2.0 release).
IMO the main problem is the damage output of tanks (which Im mainly playing myself.. So not trying to push my own agenda here..).
My tank can kill a unbuffed spy/PE in 2-3 CS bursts.. And can take SO much damage aswell..
Without stealth in the game, how would that be balanced?
So again, after some SERIOUS balancing, sure do something about stealth. Right now? God no.
Disclamer: Im not angry at all while writing this. If it sounds like that, I am sorry. I havent posted on any forum while being angry, since Jini played :p
William Antrim
08-03-14, 20:07
No you're fine. You're right about your points. All of the PvP I have ever had happened at short range. I don't know where the sniper comment came from.
Don't get me wrong I am not trying to nerf anything so that it is unusable. I want to see it all balanced. Balancing is happening behind the scenes. We know this. This is another aspect of that balancing I would like to see considered at the very least.
I don't see the point in anything but the low stealths and even then they shouldn't be spammed in this way. However I am all in favour if having a more fps style game where classes are more aesthetic and stylised than they are currently.
That is how I would prefer to see nc from a PvP perspective. The Apu analogy of my original post stemmed from the fact that with Ppu buffs - ie in an Op fight the Apu could do enough damage to get the drop on his opponent if he was careful.
If the Apu is alone in the wastelands the same should be true. If not he would have to be skilled to best an opponent. The same should be said of the spy. He has access to the highest damage tech levels. If everything is balanced on tech level he will need to be doing the highest damage according to those rules.
If the spy has that high damage output he needs to have a weakness to balance that out. A lack of stealth will/should give him that. Like it was in nc1/retail nc2 around 2005/6.
The spy was at his best then because all classes could kill all others.
These days its go stealth or go home.
For the record - on the subject of tanks I am a big fan of their damage being lowered. They have insane damage soak ability. Again with balancing I think, even hope, that this will be considered.
No you're fine. You're right about your points. All of the PvP I have ever had happened at short range. I don't know where the sniper comment came from.
The sniper comment was just about "spies shouldnt be close combat fighters". Kinda :p
Don't get me wrong I am not trying to nerf anything so that it is unusable. I want to see it all balanced. Balancing is happening behind the scenes. We know this. This is another aspect of that balancing I would like to see considered at the very least.
Is it still happening behind the scenes? Man.. I wish they would talk about, at least just a little..
Im probably the wrong person to speak about long stealths, considering that I only use Jones Stealth (mainly), and Stealth2 when Im the last one alive (why get poked, when you can just GR out? :p ) or when my legs just wont heal up again - a crawling spy is a dead spy.
I don't see the point in anything but the low stealths and even then they shouldn't be spammed in this way. However I am all in favour if having a more fps style game where classes are more aesthetic and stylised than they are currently.
I agree fully about the stealth's. I remember someone posting an idea of a cooldown between uses, which would be great!
I dont agree that the classes mainly should just be aesthetic. I love the differences between the classes - although it does make the game VERY hard to balance.
That is how I would prefer to see nc from a PvP perspective. The Apu analogy of my original post stemmed from the fact that with Ppu buffs - ie in an Op fight the Apu could do enough damage to get the drop on his opponent if he was careful.
Not sure in which "version" of the game we are speaking about here? I remember APU's being THE class to opfight with (pure APU/PPU teams). They were damage dealers on coke back then lol.
It was still better, than it is currently though..
If the Apu is alone in the wastelands the same should be true. If not he would have to be skilled to best an opponent. The same should be said of the spy. He has access to the highest damage tech levels. If everything is balanced on tech level he will need to be doing the highest damage according to those rules.
Agree 100%
Nothing to add :)
If the spy has that high damage output he needs to have a weakness to balance that out. A lack of stealth will/should give him that. Like it was in nc1/retail nc2 around 2005/6.
He has something to balance that out.. Shit resists.
Not NEARLY as bad as APU's, but in their current state I have a very hard time to compare them to spies.
IMO APU's should do about 20-30% more damage than spies, to balance the stealth factor out (or at least getting closer to balancing it out). I do think that stealth is a class defining ability, so removing it would IMO be very bad.
The spy was at his best then because all classes could kill all others.
Aaaah, yes we can all dream ;)
I dont really think I have anything else to add about stealth (which I honestly havent added that much about :p ).
Class balancing and how to balance them is something I could speak about, all day long. But I guess that is for a different subject :)
Uh and sorry for replying this way - splitting up your post like that - I just find it easier to do it like that, with longer posts.
William Antrim
09-03-14, 11:30
It's fine. The spirit of good discussion flows strong in the thread. I prefer that personally.
See the thing is when you strip them down to the bare bones the Apu and the spy have very similar stat lines. 100 psi vs 100 dex ok that's different but the strength and con are the closest together of the 4 classes.
I was heading towards a suggestion for int based armour for both classes tbh. It would be weaker than the strength based version for pe and tank but I think this is the best way to go to balance out those classes and not give the devs a headache.
As for balancing. Yes. The game is still running. The lights are on so someone must be working on it. I am a firm believer that lack of any comms means they are probably busy on something. It's not like they are all taking sick days and doing nothing. Triv has commmented recently that the storyline was put on hold while they work on other stuff.
I expect that means big things hopefully. I can't read German but it seems that the German speaking community thinks so too looking st the threads that are active.
I'm not suggesting this change gets implemented right this second like some angry kid. I mean it should be considered within the context of the entire class overhaul.
Big picture style. You have to make small changes to see the big ones more clearly.
I think this (stealth) is something that will need to be re-visited after the balancing project has been done. There are too many issues with class/setup balance causing the issue of stealth to be exaggered more than it is.
Spies have close to the highest damage in the game, which makes sense if their high damage potential was balanced with weak/poor resists but currently it isn't. They have good resists AND the ability to abuse [read: spam] stealth as they please. Anyhow, this is getting off topic.
Stealth should simply have a cooldown or a more fitting name for neocron 'Recharge time'. This time should be proportional to the time the stealth lasts for.
Pure tradeskillers, should have an option for a 'black market trade stealth tool', which requires atleast 100 in a tradeskill and lasts for a time which we would need to determine. (maybe the same as stealth 3?)
I don't this the duration of the stealth should be changed, not at all.
Stealth's implementation is deep within NC, Whether you want to travel trough DOY tunnels, stalk on someone, avoid mobs or save your life from an enemy, stealth has been something we can rely almost consistently onto. I say almost because a stealth bug was introduced a few patches ago and apparently wasnt deemed important enough to iron out.
The stealth duration time are adequate, and the skill required to use stealth seem also adequate to me (you need 100 INT and 100 TC to use the Obliterator, the longest lasting stealth in-game).
The thing I would find maybe "acceptable" to look at in regards to stealth is the "drugflash" feature that you guys tried to implement a while ago. Basically it gave you a drugflash if you used the stealth too often. The mechanics seemed very akin to the ones running the drugflash on the nanite tools. (hiting nanites 5x within the same 30 seconds period seems to induce a low-lv drugflash)
It "could" perhaps be adequate to drugflash a player if he uses stealth 5x within 30 seconds.
Anything other than that would basically be madness.
I say almost because a stealth bug was introduced a few patches ago and apparently wasnt deemed important enough to iron out.
The stealth bug (Or I should say stealth bugs!) has been around quite a bit longer than that. I do have quite a few reproducible cases logged in our bug tracker.
Kame - if you know of any stealth bugs, please can you add a post in this bug tracker thread (http://forum.neocron-game.com/showthread.php?154812-00575-R-185-The-stealth-bug) - Thanks. :)
Pink Panther
07-04-14, 19:13
I like the way stealth works now at first thought. Fixing a PE is not about stealth either and the advantage it gives a spy is just fine. Actually I find it to be a lot of fun trying to chase them in stealth or using it to escape death narrowly.
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