View Full Version : [for serious] Why isn't base XP gain increased? [nst plx]
Knowing that reducing leveling time for chars has the potential to attract players, what keeps the base xp gain from being increased?
You could clearly still have double (or more) xp events as desired, just because the base xp gain is increased doesn't mean that 2xp isn't 2xp. It's still twice as fast, it's still going to have the same draw.
The arguing point here is:
For those who actually play this game consistently, the act of leveling a character is a formality. You probably know exactly what setup/items you plan on running when you are creating the character -- you just need to get there. Why delay that process?
For those who used to play this game and are thinking of coming back, leveling is a deterrant. They don't want to deal with the monotony of slowly leveling 4 chars up just to have a complete account when they used to have one back in NC1/2/Pre-Titan.
For those who have never played this game, the grind is shortened. I think everyone here can share a story or two of a new player they helped with tips, cash, time that didn't convert to a permanent fixture. Getting these players hooked is what everyone wants. Hooking takes place when excitement, goals, and an intangible draw collide. Excitement is the act of progression. Goals are capping a character/seeing the game. And that intangible draw is your brain working against your better judgement/rl to make you sit your ass back in your char, and keep leveling because your progress is significant enough that you view your goals as attainable.
Thoughts/comments? Biting my tongue a bit on some jeers for at least two people out there who hate everything except when things suck.
I fully support this as I'm one of those people who really wants to come back and start PvPing again but I just don't have the time or motivation to grind up to woc(it's my understanding that you need to do the woc to be really competitive,) getting to cap isn't too bad(still more than most MMOs imo,) but I still feel the grind is too much.
what this game needs is more people, most people I've tried to get into NC say the same thing, they love the gameplay and atmosphere and they really want to start doing OP fights but the grind is just too much. I've had about 20 people say this to me as well, this isn't just 2 or 3 people. it's the second biggest complaint I hear about NC because let's face it, the best part of NC for most people is getting to cap, getting fitted with weapons and OP fighting.
Eventhough the grind in NC isnt too bad compared to a lot of others MMO's, its WAY more boring than most others MMO's..
However a huge problem with increased XP (like the double XP "events"), is the money income. By the time you cap, you wont be able to afford shit = more grinding (unless you have friends who can help out / capped alts).
However a huge problem with increased XP (like the double XP "events"), is the money income. By the time you cap, you wont be able to afford shit = more grinding (unless you have friends who can help out / capped alts).
This problem may actually solve itself when players are killing mobs with the highest reward of NC, and best item drops.
Drachenpaladin
14-02-14, 03:16
This problem may actually solve itself when players are killing mobs with the highest reward of NC, and best item drops.
Sure, but with what gear. The mid-level economy would break away cuz you see chars level faster then they can afford appropriate gear for their level - unless they keep grinding low or mid-level mobs that fit their gear.
Common problem you can see on WoW-freeshards. Ofc you can just conveniently buy gold to support the freeshard.
The mid-level economy would break away
By mid-level economy, do you mean player/npc interactions or player/player (eg: res/cst)?
To be plainly honest, the mid-level economy can go blow a goat. Mid-level economy is there to support mid-level characters. The reason to push xp up is to reduce the number of people in the mid(and low)-level lurch. I find it difficult to believe that people would be as willing to interrupt their leveling to get an updated weapon/spell if their xp gain remained viable.
/edit:
It should be pretty safe to assume only new players would be struggling to keep their wallets lined. It should also be pretty safe to assume that new players will continue to receive support in form of cash handouts as they always have. Returning players are in that same boat. As much as I love a new player, I love a returning even more.
Drachenpaladin
14-02-14, 04:23
By mid-level economy, do you mean player/npc interactions or player/player (eg: res/cst)?
To be plainly honest, the mid-level economy can go blow a goat. Mid-level economy is there to support mid-level characters. The reason to push xp up is to reduce the number of people in the mid(and low)-level lurch. I find it difficult to believe that people would be as willing to interrupt their leveling to get an updated weapon/spell if their xp gain remained viable.
/edit:
It should be pretty safe to assume only new players would be struggling to keep their wallets lined. It should also be pretty safe to assume that new players will continue to receive support in form of cash handouts as they always have. Returning players are in that same boat. As much as I love a new player, I love a returning even more.
... the idea of noobs living permanently from handouts seems not the least bit wrong, no?
Cuz otherwise they would have huge problems of getting their shit on their own. Its isn't even viable to play without recycle already as noob. Only raising the XP rates wouldn't be enough, cash rewards would have to be raised too, devaluing credits even more.
At any rate, won't we just shut off Titan and make Sparta the new Main server? Would solve so much problems :rolleyes:
No pesky leveling in an RPG... only thing schizophrenic is that more and more FPS adopt a level progress system... I must be getting old. And that in a community where the average age is like what? 35?...
I don't understand why people wouldn't be for this... If not a boost in world XP, how about boosting the XP that rats and aggis etc so the lower levels are less of a pain. Most players have leveled so many toons it's stupid. Why make the starting levels such a pain? the new players have no idea what to do.. sending them into a sewer to kill rats for a week isn't a great way to boost player base.
Also you should fix the abandon cellar in industrial sectors, Back in nc1 and start of nc2 there was a Cellar right near the GR in industrial sector 2 or something, that had all the MB bunker mobs. that was a great mid level place.
I'm not over here saying you need to tithe 10% to new players. Nor would I trek down the path of 'this is going to make people lazy' as that argument is ridiculous. Create something compelling and motivation is organic.
New players already have a hard time getting shit on their own. They don't know what to get or where their resources are. Many can't even figure out the UI because it's so different than what they are used to.
I used to wonder why people didn't just play on the test server. The reason is there is no hook there. You don't care if you die or drop something, you don't get excited over new shit. That dynamic doesn't change with increased XP. The point you think you are making just demonstrates your lack of critical thought.
This game isn't an FPS. It's not Counter-Strike. Making that association is a poor way to represent both games.
Eventhough the grind in NC isnt too bad compared to a lot of others MMO's, its WAY more boring than most others MMO's..
However a huge problem with increased XP (like the double XP "events"), is the money income. By the time you cap, you wont be able to afford shit = more grinding (unless you have friends who can help out / capped alts).
Once there capped there is level 3 imps, and non rares that they can use to hunt for techs or even fight with.
Doc Holliday
14-02-14, 08:55
The "Hook" is a difficult one to bait. Your looking at a myriad of different scenarios for player needs that all need to be catered for. A returning "veteran" vs a brand new player is one and then it diversifies from there.
Increasing xp gain is a good idea in some ways as, at the end of the day, the end game for this game is all about the pvp. spin any other way you want but this is still a pvp game at heart. i know a few old warhorses will argue this but 9 out of 10 players i have talked to personally who returned said yeah i just wanna get my char levelled so i can op fight. I realise this one persons opinion (mine) and not a credible source backed up by fact but im guessing everyones had a similar conversation with someone returning to nc. (just looking back over the thread i realise 2ply made the same point so thats two of us. too lazy to quote)
The noobie experience revamp for tg was a good start on this. more stuff like that where people can get a bit of a hand levelling up was a great move. it needs to be done across the board or we get a million tg runners and no one else. Another idea which was raised was make the store bought weapons a little better. I know of a player who played the game not knowing store boughts were so bad that he was using a tl3 grenade launcher till about str 25......
I think the way to get more people in and hooked is to enhance some of the drop rates on certain items. Bring back the old plasma pistol that dropped on aggressors and the like. you could sell them for a fortune as a low level char. Remove the smuggler at point red and bring him in to the city some place (Tech angels in pepper park or even Tech haven itself) and make the implants artifact quality. Increase quality of store bought weapons also but dont give them a chance of slots. it bridges the gap between store bought and player built.
Please before anyone argues with this please consider the following scenario. you ask for a constructor. 2 speak up. 1 is 200+ and the other is a noob levelling up and is say 80 something. You will naturally go to the one who is better so this eliminates the "Middle economy argument". If your levelling a trader you can do it a number of ways (some more boring than others but dont tell me its purely from doing jobs for people as this game was never designed that way).
This leads me on to another point. Increasing XP gains from processes. the F7 window. You poke someone else. you get xp. You recycle items for someone or yourself. you get more xp. You repair items for someone or your own gear you get more xp than current. This would encourage player interaction and be helping that levelling grind while doing something useful. I realise you would have people potentially abusing it by grinding the shit out of every piece of junk they loot and tossing away the ammo medikits etc but if its not hurting anyone or breaking the economy how bad is it really? Even more so as long as its scaled right (recycling) and there is perhaps a cap introduced given a certain value of junk or some other parameter then it could work no?
On the subject of the level 3 imps top level drop weapons i think that can only be solved by the balancing to make those weapons viable so that a player has a chance in pvp vs a capped char with rare weapons. that and the player economy not trying to exploit anyone and everyone over the prices of weapons and/or techs. ($1.2m for a pain easer part set.... :wtf:)
These ideas above are all tweaks to the xp gain without breaking the economy. Of course the entire pve experience needs work on it IMO. It was so much better in nc1 because of the variety of places to go. I realise it was also much much easier but a balance between how it was and how it is now with more avenues to explore to go levelling would definitely help the levelling experience.
That and opening up the world to make it more accessible for new players to go and explore. http://forum.neocron-game.com/showthread.php?154950-Op-Gr-Changes-%28yes-this-again%29 That is a seperate topic of course and was discussed in this thread so feel free to add to it as you will :)
Cursed Shadow
14-02-14, 13:22
I agree with pretty much everything that Doc Holliday states above.
If everyone is going to get so shirty about "if we raise base exp then we can't afford shit" here's a simple solution, raise cash gain by the same multiplier. There we go, problem solved, thanks folks.
If anyone responds to this with anything about 'killing monsters will make me rich if you change this' abuse I will laugh at you whilst throwing TL150 research cubes in your face.
William Antrim
14-02-14, 14:51
I'd like to ask what you all do with your 0 slot guns. Me personally I sell them for less than 100k or even give them away.
I bet you guys have plenty laying around or vend them.
These would be perfectly viable for the capped new players under divides scheme.
I support the idea. Earlier the hook gets them the better the game is.
Powerpunsh
14-02-14, 15:53
I dont support this! I further more would like to see a more balanced PVE! You cant solve problems by just sayin "Ye double xp and fine". If PVE would be that frustrating leveling as e.g. a pistol/rifl and know "for fucks sake, dat drohners are 10 times faster" you wouldnt be upset.
Furthermore i would support a makeshift to set PVE damage on all weapons equal so all classes can level or farm on the same speed. In addition lower AoE damage down to 33% so it only would make sense on over 3 targets. :)
Drachenpaladin
14-02-14, 15:55
Well, mid level economy was a misleading choice but it was the only thing i could come up 2am... whatever. Do what you want, you all know so much, idgaf anymore.
Doc Holliday
14-02-14, 18:10
Well, mid level economy was a misleading choice but it was the only thing i could come up 2am... whatever. Do what you want, you all know so much, idgaf anymore.
my simple reply to this is dont try and post at 2am (its 3.09am here for me now and i have had a couple drinks after work) and instead get some rest and then come back and post with a clear head and think about what you are saying rather than post random stuff which may or may not facilitate good solid discussion. You have been around long enough and contribute plenty to know whats essentially good and bad for neocron just like the rest of us here who actively visit the forums. just saying.
William Antrim
14-02-14, 19:18
Seems perfectly legit at 17.18pm :)
Drachenpaladin
14-02-14, 19:28
Seems perfectly legit at 17.18pm :)
Ok, i can see where this is heading... well, time to get hammered.
And for the record: I didn't post random stuff. But i don't see that anyone understood my point anyway so whateffs.
Doc Holliday
14-02-14, 19:29
Ok, i can see where this is heading... well, time to get hammered.
please reply after said hammering has commenced. :D
Knowing that reducing leveling time for chars has the potential to attract players, what keeps the base xp gain from being increased?well. its your assumption that removing the RP-part will make the game more popular. so what if we would get rid of the "levelling" part altogether? start capped and get some stuff, so PvP will start right away? tell you what: lets give it a try. lets ask our devs kindly to put up a new server/world, without the need to get XP. just PvP. lets name it... "Neptune". yeah thats a good name. what do you think will happen?
The Red Guy
15-02-14, 01:23
weapon balancing, earlier able to PvP, WoC no longer a requirement, profit.
MayhemMichael
15-02-14, 01:59
I agree with divide pretty much on all points. If you've been playing this game off and on for years you know how to level a character in as easily as a weekend with casual leveling. The only thing keeping old vets and new players coming to the game is the very slow early levels. Make it double or more XP across the board. This will get people able to get this chars to a high enough level where they can start farming rare parts and cash easily to keep that end game within sight.
... the idea of noobs living permanently from handouts seems not the least bit wrong, no?
The only thing obviously wrong with this statement, is that low-lv chars dont remain low-lv char "permanantly" as you wrote. Think of what you say : it makes no sense, there is flawed logic behind that statement.
"Noobs" simply level up and become capped, or quit the game out of discouragement and lack of time to invest in it.
I dont support this! I further more would like to see a more balanced PVE! You cant solve problems by just sayin "Ye double xp and fine". If PVE would be that frustrating leveling as e.g. a pistol/rifl and know "for fucks sake, dat drohners are 10 times faster" you wouldnt be upset.
Furthermore i would support a makeshift to set PVE damage on all weapons equal so all classes can level or farm on the same speed. In addition lower AoE damage down to 33% so it only would make sense on over 3 targets. :)
Whatever is being proposed here belongs in another thread. Tweaking weapons and getting classes streamlined have nothing to do with XP gain being upgraded. I suggest you start your own thrread and see if people give a shit about your vision of the game.
We want players, more players. Easier capping is a real good idea.
Drachenpaladin
15-02-14, 05:08
The only thing obviously wrong with this statement, is that low-lv chars dont remain low-lv char "permanantly" as you wrote. Think of what you say : it makes no sense, there is flawed logic behind that statement.
"Noobs" simply level up and become capped, or quit the game out of discouragement and lack of time to invest in it.
If the XP rate is simply raised then the noobs will live from handouts till cap. cuz they will never get on their own feet. For the reasons i already stated, they level faster then they can buy equip appropriate for their level and higher ranking mobs. So they have to stick to farming mobs too low for their equip - not really the fast progression the idea aims for.
Also, with a level too high above the mob you don't gain funds so that would require extra balancing...
so you raise the moen gain form mobs... but yeah, i see people want instant gratification and access to stuff, so money doesn't need any value.
William Antrim
15-02-14, 10:09
Drachen your idea is flawed at best.
All weapons damage all mobs. What would happen is noobs would skip guns with double xp. They will still damage mobs, earn cash and move to a higher level.
Instead of going from a tl 19 laser cannon for example to a tl 23 flamer they would go from tl 19 to tl 30 or maybe even tl 40 plasma wave.
A low level weapon costs what? 20k? less? Make one gun for another 20k? Probably less tbh. Level up through the first 10 or 20 or 30 levels. Change guns, rinse and repeat.
In the old days of early nc1 I used to go and spend half my life constructing and researching the next weapon I could get. I had the time and inclination back then. Some people will still have that time and that inclination and there is NOTHING in this proposal that stops them. Sure they can use a better weapon but they are not FORCED into it. All weapons are still ok.
However those people who do not like the "grind" will find the shortened levelling to be that much more appealing. It really is simple when you actually sit down and look at the numbers proposed.
the economy is not fucked either before anyone says it, there is a perfectly working system of trading unressed parts, this will never ever be altered by market fluctuations. The only fluctuations in it will be from idiots wanting too many parts for a shit weapon. However getting a few parts back in trade for a no or 1 slot weapon from a new player (which he could earn in an hour or two) will be highly attractive to many "old school" players.
If you dont like a poster - no worries - but think of the post, think big picture.
Oh and Torg your neptune sarcasm has been posted in this forum about 74 times now. It wasnt funny the first time and it adds nothing to the discussion, please stop using it. Its dead. :)
Cursed Shadow
15-02-14, 14:49
If the XP rate is simply raised then the noobs will live from handouts till cap. cuz they will never get on their own feet. For the reasons i already stated, they level faster then they can buy equip appropriate for their level and higher ranking mobs. So they have to stick to farming mobs too low for their equip - not really the fast progression the idea aims for.
Also, with a level too high above the mob you don't gain funds so that would require extra balancing...
so you raise the moen gain form mobs... but yeah, i see people want instant gratification and access to stuff, so money doesn't need any value.
Noobs to this game already require a lot of guidance in pretty much everything.
This game offers pretty much zero information to new runners.
Neocron is entirely dependent on community-support of new guys, this would not hinder that.
William Antrim
15-02-14, 17:07
Yeah but it doesnt take much for one person to post up a quick "how to" in help channel. Lots of tradeskillers do actually idle and answer questions. I know I do when playing as one of the Earps.
To see a much faster progress in the first 10-15 levels - even up to /20 overall for example - would allow noobs to use established weapons against a reasonable level of AI/damage (Aggressors, Aggressor Captains and above). Most of all it would allow much higher survivability in the wastelands as the noobs would hear about this place called "military base" and possibly want to go there. Or tech haven, or the Canyon.
The point is you would be essentially dragging them out of the sewers where they started and into the world properly where they could have fun exploring - if only the first time - and potentially run into things like OP fights, Pkers, Rhinos, shit talk and all the other great things NC has to offer.
If I logged into a game that basically suggested (through my lack of progression) that I was going to be stabbing Rats with a flick knife for the first 5 hours I think I would go elsewhere.
However if said game gave me a laser pistol in the first 2 hours and let me blast holes in said rats and even higher level monsters then I would be more inclined to stay. Its amazing what having a gun in your hand can do to a new player.
I definitely do agree about the first couple of levels. It IS way to slow/tedious to gain the first levels.
Increased XP untill */20 wouldnt be a bad idea.
I've been rallying for this forever.
http://forum.neocron-game.com/showthread.php?140901-Leveling
William Antrim
16-02-14, 10:00
I can only echo the sentiments from back then.
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