View Full Version : Level 1 drugs increase duration?
William Antrim
31-01-14, 14:21
I would like to propose increasing level 1 drug time to 60 mins per drug. (by this i mean stuff like serumderibat etc)
Currently they are not used at all as far as I know. However if we had the ability to take a higher level drug over the lower one to cancel the effect (in the same way that heals work) then that would help stop abuse of taking loads of lower level drugs and no higher ones.
Drugs would need to be reclassified as level 1 2 and 3 I guess but it is fairly easy to see which levels each ones go into. You dont need a pharmacology degree to see what I mean at least.
I think this would open up drug dealing (Protopharma and Black Dragon?) as a new trade as anyone who recycles could suddenly become a dealer.
Thoughts? Opinions?
Doc Holliday
31-01-14, 20:39
great idea. I cant see an option for abuse either. Make them a reasonable tech level representative of what they can do (50 for level 1 for example makes it another worthwhile bonus to spec recycle) and go from there. With a 30 min or 60 min duration its only gonna help people get levelled and bring an otherwise useless item in to the game and be more useful.
How about we just remove drugs altogether instead?
How about we just remove drugs altogether instead?
How about, no..
How about, no..
So tired of drug rezzes and chars that don't work without drugs. Probably would be less frustrating if res didn't take half an hour.
William Antrim
02-02-14, 11:43
What about some sort of anti flash then instead divide?
What about some sort of anti flash then instead divide?
To have a fair fight you need to ensure that you are equally drugged, its just stupid.
William Antrim
02-02-14, 20:41
This thread isnt really about pvp though, its more about the drugs used in pve. The level 1 stuff. With a one hour duration the flash problems you are talking about wouldnt really happen so much.
Personally I would like to see durations increased on all drugs but thats just me. If they are in game we should use them as much as we can. Protopharma depends on it!
drugs are a funny but weird part of NC. i'd rather have them weakened but strengthened. but thats up to the Great Balancing Project, right?
Doc Holliday
03-02-14, 11:31
drugs are a funny but weird part of NC. i'd rather have them weakened but strengthened. but thats up to the Great Balancing Project, right?
clarification needed. Not trying to be an ass either. did u mean weakened or strengthened there?
clarification needed. Not trying to be an ass either. did u mean weakened or strengthened there?
That he'd rather have them being weaker, than he'd like them to be better (longer duration = better).
Or at least thats how I read it.
William Antrim
03-02-14, 22:24
Give us an example because that post made zero sense. How do you weaken a drug that gives +1 dex?
Give us an example because that post made zero sense. How do you weaken a drug that gives +1 dex?
-1 Dex? :cool:
I fully support the -Skill drug changeover.
Give us an example because that post made zero sense. How do you weaken a drug that gives +1 dex?example: +0.5 dex instead of +1 dex. or 150 secs duration instead of 300. or synaptic impairment along with the drugflsh. my opinion is we should slightly tone down the importance of drugs rather than enhance it.
William Antrim
05-02-14, 14:26
They are already useless. Don't make them even more useless lol! Torg sometimes I wonder about you.
Cursed Shadow
05-02-14, 14:55
They are already useless. Don't make them even more useless lol! Torg sometimes I wonder about you.
I actually think that drug durations should be different too:
Level 1 drugs: 60mins
Level 2 drugs: 30mins
Level 3 drugs: 15mins
That makes it easier to use drugs, but opens them up for abuse. (People could take 10+ drugs without worrying so much about flash)
I've always thought perhaps a more appropriate drug limit should be imposed.
Perhaps a maximum of X drugs should be applied at any one time? (I'd suggest a max of 3)
They are already useless. Don't make them even more useless lol! Torg sometimes I wonder about you.i used drugs a lot (speaking of NC here). i believe other people do alike (again, in NC). i understand you'd want drugs to be different. you may understand our opinoins on that are different, too.
William Antrim
05-02-14, 20:56
Now you're really contradicting yourself. You use them yet a lot yet you want to make them worse. What kind of masochistic person are you? Do you sit on a bed of nails while you play nc also? :)
Now you're really contradicting yourself. You use them yet a lot yet you want to make them worse. What kind of masochistic person are you? Do you sit on a bed of nails while you play nc also? :)
How is that a contradiction? Torg's position on drugs seems clear to me, he thinks they're OP and wants them nerfed, how frequently he uses them at the moment is irrelevant nor does it contradict his wish to see them changed. With things as they stand being on 2 or more drugs constantly is pretty much a requirement of pvp, even more so with certain classes and builds and it encourages weird gameplay like drug rezzes. Having to stop fighting every few minutes to kill myself and get rezzed isn't my idea of fun pvp, I'm just weird like that. :p Now don't say "oh then don't use them, no one's forcing you" I'm not a good enough player to hold my own without drugs when every other pvper is on them and most are probably higher skilled than me already, handicapping myself further isn't a real choice.
I wouldn't mind seeing duration raised on the lowest TL drugs, those are only ever used for PvE to meet weapon requirements anyway. I actually think the whole setup of drug buffs and drugflash needs to be looked at again and completely redone but that's another topic for a different thread.
Doc Holliday
06-02-14, 04:40
I wouldn't mind seeing duration raised on the lowest TL drugs
Which is what was suggested in the original post of the thread. I think the idea is a kind of buff like you get from cooking and eating food in other mmos (wow is an example) which, while not being game breaking, is certainly an advantage when levelling up.
It makes lower end content more useful to levellers. it gets recycling more involved as a skill. It promotes drug use (that was a tongue in cheek comment before anyone burns me at a stake :)) which is being argued for and against here.
Keep the discussion of drug rezzes, high end drugs etc out of the discussion and focus on the lower end of the market (what you can buy at medicare) as i believe this is the area predicated for discussion.
William Antrim
06-02-14, 10:15
The discussion is about level 1 drugs, not pvp.
also who in their right mind wants level 1 drugs which are already useless to be even more useless. Thats the contradiction. Read what he is saying. Look through his posts. Every time a new idea comes up he is instantly against it. Noone else on this forum does that. Sometimes he is so against it that he has to come out with ridiculous ideas like the one above just to appear to be against it.
Nobody uses level 1 drugs, they last for like a minute and then you get a flash. Now by Torgs proposal after that time you would get SI too.
Come on dude. Take a step back and just think about how cool that feature would be for the game. We could all get SI on demand. I am sorry if this is coming across as sarcastic but I cant help myself tbh. Saying no I want less drug use in the game is one thing but making a useless item even more useless is another entirely. :)
To me it looks like Torg just read the thread title and then decided to post his thoughts on drugs in general, which is bad enough already. Maybe I'm just being naive but I doubt Torg wants those sorts of changes made to level 1 drugs, his posts seemed to all be about high end drugs and pvp. I didn't mean to derail the thread but it looked like it was about to get derailed anyway.
OT: I actually have used level 1 drugs while levelling characters and still use them sometimes to activate my implants after gring or dying so they're not useless to me. Increasing their duration is harmless by itself but if we're taking the time to change drugs at all I'd rather they had a complete overhaul as I said before, they're pretty broken right now.
William Antrim
06-02-14, 16:06
Suggest examples then please. State numbers and reasons so that proper discussions can start.
With things as they stand being on 2 or more drugs constantly is pretty much a requirement of pvp, even more so with certain classes and builds and it encourages weird gameplay like drug rezzes. Having to stop fighting every few minutes to kill myself and get rezzed isn't my idea of fun pvp, I'm just weird like that. :p Now don't say "oh then don't use them, no one's forcing you" I'm not a good enough player to hold my own without drugs when every other pvper is on them and most are probably higher skilled than me already, handicapping myself further isn't a real choice.
I wouldn't mind seeing duration raised on the lowest TL drugs, those are only ever used for PvE to meet weapon requirements anyway. I actually think the whole setup of drug buffs and drugflash needs to be looked at again and completely redone but that's another topic for a different thread.
This^100
to be more specific: i used drugs a lot for levelling lowbie chars. and from that i think L1 drugs are too powerful and/or have too little disadvantages. my opinion.
William Antrim
08-02-14, 17:17
You're on drugs right now I think tbh.... you are entitled to your opinion of course but seriously... too powerful? I can only laugh at this. I have heard some hilarious things in your posts but I think this one tops em all.
Thanks for contributing though Torg. :)
I have heard some hilarious things in your posts but I think this one tops em all.
...You sure about that? :p
OT: I cannot see how the low level drugs are too powerfull, in any way...
They only last a couple of mins..
Personally I only use them, when Im leveling a droner tbh (which do not happen often...).
Dribble Joy
09-02-14, 01:45
A huge problem with drugs in general, is that they are almost invariably a benefit.
If they were to modify a character by giving a bonus but also a noticeable malus, then people might think twice about their use.
This is more a end-game PvP consideration, but lower level drugs could do with being grouped with them in some way.
That said, the duration of the low level drugs makes them kinda pointless.
Doc Holliday
09-02-14, 08:29
I thought the point of this thread was low level drugs needing a buff because they are shit. Too small a duration coupled with a drug flash that will build to the point of being completely blocked within 5 minutes of use. Low level drugs are NOT too powerful which is why this thread came up. Thats my opinion
Can i ask that everyone in the brainport that posts in threads either in agreement or disagreement please take a little longer in the construction process of a post and actually THINK what you are writing rather than dismissing/supporting ideas out of hand.
It seems like in a lot of recent threads there is the point of the thread and then there is a massive gap between that and the next person who posts.
Back on topic.
If anyone has played WoW (im sure plenty have) why not try and imagine the idea of the boosting of the drugs to be like the cooking skill in wow. It boosts an attribute for a while and helps a person reach higher weapons faster. What could also be done is removing all level 1 drugs that boost core attributes. Instead just have the drugs implemented at low levels that provide a buff to sub skills. Naturally im fairly sure a lot of the most popular ones could be the combat skills (RC/HC etc) but depending on damage type resist available maybe a new player wants to stock up on a transport buff or a support buff. Lower level constructors/researchers might decide to pop a few construction drugs while they level up their char also. Maybe a recycler uses one to help him too to recycle more and more drugs to feed his habit.
It also ADDS content in a sense that people can go off and buy and make drugs as well as ammo, meds etc. So long as this is not too huge of an advantage and makes for a bit more of an immersion aspect in this cyberpunk world. Runners are taking stimulants and stuff to enhance performance just like modern day athletes if you will.
And for the love of god why do you want to put a negative on it when its to help new players. If need be i would rather see a negative along the lines of "Doesnt work after con level X" to stop higher level players circumventing the system rather than punishing someone whos a lower level and just wants to get a bit of help getting ahead.
Low TL drugs are usefull. Boost your rank to reach the requirement for Epic missions, implants or PAs.
So just do get it right, Redflash (Lvl3) would flush Whiteflash (Lvl2) out of my system and Whiteflash Serumderibat(Lvl1)? No Lvl 1,2,3 drug stack?
Drachenpaladin
09-02-14, 15:35
Buffing noob stuff is a good idea, regardless of what it is. Heck, people would actually get to get somewhere with some ATL and AGI drugs.
Cursed Shadow
10-02-14, 14:29
A huge problem with drugs in general, is that they are almost invariably a benefit.
If they were to modify a character by giving a bonus but also a noticeable malus, then people might think twice about their use.
This is more a end-game PvP consideration, but lower level drugs could do with being grouped with them in some way.
That said, the duration of the low level drugs makes them kinda pointless.
I really do think we're all over-complicating things.
The simple solution, I believe is to:
Impose a drug limit (fixes abuse)
Extend drug durations (nice to have)
Think of a better long-term solution (once the abuse is cleared up, minds will be brimming with more positive solutions)
I'm not going to say that the above changes are 'easy to code', but I will say that all of the settings and components already exist, which possibly makes it simpler than start from scratch.
That being said, this is Neocron and the code probably is a burn it with fire and start from the ashes affair.
Slightly Off-Topic:
I doubt drugs were introduced to have people taking between 4-6 at any one time, which I am known to do in PvP.
I'll start off with two drugs, then I'll use more and more to counteract the flash.
I have used up to six drugs in OP fights just because I see no reason not to, I carefully select them so that every drug improves my character in some way and they are ordered from best to worst.
This is the current problem, there are no setbacks or properly enforced limits to drug taking in-game.
William Antrim
10-02-14, 16:50
There should not be any negatives or limits. They cost money and are a one time use. That is all the negative they need. Drug use in neocron should be encouraged, not frowned upon.
Drachenpaladin
10-02-14, 17:02
There should not be any negatives or limits. They cost money and are a one time use. That is all the negative they need. Drug use in neocron should be encouraged, not frowned upon.
No drug usage without the danger of overdosing.
while i appreciate discussing new ideas (regardless whether i'd agree or not), my position on this one is: could we please leave L1 drugs the way they are? in general the underlying question is (i henceforth shall call it "Torg's razor"): is this idea making the game more interesting, or just easier? and if it's the latter, why would we want our Devs to dedicate valuable coding worktime to a project that isnt going to make the game more interesting? wouldnt we all rather want to have new drugs, i.e. "kami", new weapons, new locations?
while i appreciate discussing new ideas (regardless whether i'd agree or not), my position on this one is: could we please leave L1 drugs the way they are? in general the underlying question is (i henceforth shall call it "Torg's razor"): is this idea making the game more interesting, or just easier? and if it's the latter, why would we want our Devs to dedicate valuable coding worktime to a project that isnt going to make the game more interesting? wouldnt we all rather want to have new drugs, i.e. "kami", new weapons, new locations?
Because changing the times the drugs last is A LOT easier/faster than adding new items/locations.....
Doc Holliday
11-02-14, 06:16
Because changing the times the drugs last is A LOT easier/faster than adding new items/locations.....
We are making that assumption but i do wholeheartedly agree. Making something that already exists more relevant and beneficial is better than building something new from scratch despite what ever it may be. We are restoring neocron we are not trying to reinvent the wheel with this thread.
William Antrim
12-02-14, 22:48
Actually what we are trying to do is help new players get into neocron with all of these ideas. Reel them in and get them hooked on the game.
damien vryce
12-02-14, 23:14
cost money one time use and te drug flash that comes when they end are the malus end story
...what we are trying to do is help new players get into neocron... actually this is the "wont anyone think of the children" argument. yes, i want to bring new people to neocron, too. but an idea is not automatically a great idea once you declare it to be helpful for beginners. i'm perfectly convinced that all help a new player could ask for is there. online. in the community. thats how i learned to use all those funny drugs. just like you.
tl;dr i dont believe extending the duration of L1-drugs will bring in new players, or make this game more enjoyable. i'm sorry.
William Antrim
14-02-14, 14:38
You made your point torg. I'm not interested in hearing it get repeated tbh. The comment you quoted was a generalisation of my current thinking.
I'd be ok with this as long as they made it only main stat boosts drugs give me. One thing I've always hated is drugs in neocron, if you don't spend a fortune on them you will be at a disadvantage (quite a large one). And to top it off most people just have a ppu alt to rez them when it comes to the DF so they don't even need to worry about that.
I'd be ok with this as long as they made it only main stat boosts drugs give me. One thing I've always hated is drugs in neocron, if you don't spend a fortune on them you will be at a disadvantage (quite a large one). And to top it off most people just have a ppu alt to rez them when it comes to the DF so they don't even need to worry about that.
Its a great moneysink though...
William Antrim
15-02-14, 16:54
Its a great moneysink though...
Single biggest economic reason why it should be there. Drains the economy of much needed money. There is still plenty of money to go around but to ensure the survivability of and indeed value of money there needs to be less of it around.
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