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Alduin
16-10-13, 08:20
Dear Runners,

please discuss anything related to Deployment #2 (http://forum.neocron-game.com/showthread.php?154047-Sparta-Deployment-2-Change-Log) in this thread.

Sincereley,
Your Neocron Support Team

Cursed Shadow
16-10-13, 11:28
I'll have to test it, but that DPM curve is looking quite steep.
It lends itself to overpowering the BHG, AK, WoC Launcher, Disruptor and possibly the TL115 drones.

I would have expected the damage to start to flatten out around TL110, but the curve does not represent this...

As I say though, the above is speculation, the proof is in the pudding.

Edit: *add rant about how WoC weapons should always do less damage than Rare, Hard-earned weapons here*

Alduin
16-10-13, 11:41
We realised the DPM for high level weapons was too low compared to weapons with lower Techlevel. Our initial goal was it to make the lower Techlevel weapons more useful ( > TL75) in PvP and we want to keep to this idea. However there are more factors correlating with damage than just damage factor and frequency, causing an unexpected outcome: lower TL weapons being more useful than higher TL weapons. Therefore we adjust the DPM-gain per techlevel again.

That's the reason why it is steeper now. The focus is first of all to get the end-game PvP right. Everything else will be balanced around the end-game PvP, so expect the slope (the first derivative) to be fixed/equalized once we are happy with the end-game DPM curve. Apart from that, keep in mind that nothing is fixed yet. We have the freedom to change stuff in case it does not fit, so: braaaiiiinnnzzzz uhm, I mean feeeeedddbaackkk ;)

Neallys
16-10-13, 11:47
I have tried a few duels, I need to do further testing though. Stamina is a bit more manageable, It's not that the current Melee system bothers me that much, but it's more appreciable to play melee without constantly spam your belt of stam boosters. Always a welcome change. As to the damage, I'm not sure how I'm testing this, I did 1v1 duels, without PPU shields, I'll try some later on with PPU shields, melee against heavy.

N

Cursed Shadow
16-10-13, 12:06
Do you have any Endurance specced?

Teal`c
16-10-13, 12:27
Contact me if youre interested in a duel with your melee vs my hc.

Neallys
16-10-13, 14:07
So I tried to duel a heavy combat user, it was bad. Well, stamina-wise I'm doing ok, but the DPM is way too low at the moment, even in 1v1 unbuffed combat. I'm not sure we are expected to do these test also in 1v1 situations with PPU shields, but neither the APU or me as M-C could outdamage the healing ticks.

Slap me on the ass and call me Judy but the DPM is a bit low except for some weapon

Cursed Shadow
16-10-13, 15:12
Are you sure that you are optimizing your points correctly?

Many people do not realize that Endurance, Athletics and Weapon Lore are key parts of Melee Combat.

Would be nice to know what damage you deal (on average) to a 0 resistance, no armor equipped tank.
(For each Melee Rare)

Just for you reference:

Category: Melee Combat (M-C)

Lowtech Melee Combat:
Damage (100): Base 10 %, M-C 60 %, WEP 10 %, ATL 20 %
Frequency (100): Base 10 %, M-C 30 %, WEP 40 %, END 20 %
Handling (100): Base 10 %, M-C 20 %, WEP 40 %, AGL 30 %

Hightech Melee Combat:
Damage (100): Base 10 %, M-C 60 %, WEP 10 %, ATL 20 %
Frequency (100): Base 20 %, M-C 20 %, WEP 20 %, T-C 20 %, END 20 %
Handling (110): Base 20 %, M-C 20 %, WEP 20 %, T-C 20 %, AGL 30 %

Would be nice to know your current (with imps) points in:

WEP:
M-C:
ATL:
END:
T-C:
AGL:

Bragi
16-10-13, 16:59
We would also like you to test pure damage per hit across all versions of a weapon type above TL75. Eg. Cursed Soul vs TL84 Plasma Cannon, Blade of Ceres vs Tai-Chi Double-Edged, etc. This will give us a better understanding of how the updated curve is working.

As in the last thread, please post:
Weapon Damage %
Weapon Frequency
Weapon TL
Per hit instant damage

There should be a special NPC on Sparta on which to do these tests.

A melee weapon of a given TL should do the same DPM as a rifle, pistol or heavy weapon of the same TL.
As melee is dependent on sub-skills in a different manner than the other weapon types, it may be trickier to get this into practice given the implant system and tank PA.
We would rather fix that first than simply buff melee from the outset.

slith
16-10-13, 21:38
Slap me on the ass and call me Judy but the DPM is a bit low except for some weaponDamage on the whole is too high. Nerf PPU Buffs accordingly - gives resists some actual value and makes fights buffed vs non-buffed an actual fight.

Massaker
16-10-13, 22:21
Hello everybody.

I tested some weapons on Sparta and the result was that the damage of weapons with a lower techlevel is greater than the damage of the rare weapon.
The curve of the deployment #2 don't match the settings of the damage on Sparta. You can see this in the following screenshots. The live tests with the weapons on other players with the weapons gave the same results as the values in the weapon info list. OK the interface language is german but I think you will understand everything ;)

First of all the APU single shot spells.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/cc5ff7butgol4wm/APU-BEAMS.jpg

As you can see the Holy Lightning does more damage as the Holy Energy Beam. This is what the curve represent. But the other spells like the Holy Fire Apocalypse and Holy Frostration do less damage as the highest non-rare spells. There must be something wrong.


Next we have the APU-Barrels. The damage values of the barrels look fine and there is no mismatch with the curve (see the next picture)

https://www.dropbox.com/s/sm1i3xeqr32d59d/APU-BARRELS.jpg


The next class is the Tank. At the moment i had only the time to test the single shot hightech Cannons and the common area weapons.
The following picture includes the Cursed Soul vs Tangent Plasma Cannon, Ravager vs Tangent Plasma Wave and the Creed vs Storm Laser

https://www.dropbox.com/s/f9f3j2kox0ro3nt/TANK-Single_Target.jpg

As you can see all values of the Tangent Plasma Cannon are higher than the Cursed Soul. Greater rate of fire, range and damage. So if you calculate the dpm the Tangent Plasma Cannon will do more damage as the Cursed Soul.
The next weapon is the Ravager. The Ravager does a litte bit less damage and has a less range as the Tangent Plasma Wave but the rate of fire is a litte bit higher. If you calculate the dpm of both weapons the values are very equal.
The next weapon is the Creed and the Storm Laser. As yo can see all values of the Storm Laser are higher as the values of the Creed. The only advantage of the Creed is the rate of fire. The damage of the Storm Laser is about 62 points higher as of the Creed. The calculated dpm value of the Storm Laser is also higher as of the Creed......


Now the last weapons - the Tank AOE Hightech Weapons.
To make it short: all rare weapons (Doom Beamer, Malediction and Moonstriker) do less damage as the highest non rare weapons. You can see this in the following picture.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/96lucoucf9v5veo/TANK-AOE.jpg

The conclusion of this test is that there is a point in the curve where the line drop down. Maybe it is a problem with the skill. To get a weapon with a smaller techlevel capp is easier as a weapon with a higher techlevel. This could be the reason why the non rare weapons do more damage as the rare weapons.


Massi

Bragi
16-10-13, 22:26
We are aware that there is a serious problem. This took us by surprise as much as anyone.

We are trying to find out what the issue is, but as some weapon types are being affected more than others, this will not be simple (yay for NC code ;)).

We will keep you posted.


Maybe it is a problem with the skill. To get a weapon with a smaller techlevel capp is easier as a weapon with a higher techlevel. This could be the reason why the non rare weapons do more damage as the rare weapons.
This was the case with Deployment #1. We aimed for the DPM/TL rework in Deployment #2 to overcome this effect, but it seems to not to have happened.

Edit:
I've had an idea.

Could you test each weapon with the MINIMUM sub-skill requirements? Also alter you other sub-skills that affect a weapons damage performance by a proportional amount. So if a weapon needs 20% less RC/HC/etc. less than it's rare equivalent, reduce your WEP as well (and similar sub-skills for melee and APU).

This hopefully should still produce the same results, but if not, we may get a better idea of where the problem lies.

Jabal
17-10-13, 09:13
no revert loom in sparta ???

my character is 44 and i want to test some pistol on sparta but the revert loom vendor have nothing in stock.

Baldur
17-10-13, 09:30
no revert loom in sparta ???

my character is 44 and i want to test some pistol on sparta but the revert loom vendor have nothing in stock.


Click the altar in neoconstruct for a free warp to the ceres temple and talk to "SUPER HARD MISSION GUY".
Kill the rat (6/6) he spawns --> BING :)

Jabal
17-10-13, 09:42
solved , someone explain me this in sparta :) thanks baldur.

Cursed Shadow
17-10-13, 10:45
The conclusion of this test is that there is a point in the curve where the line drop down. Maybe it is a problem with the skill. To get a weapon with a smaller techlevel capp is easier as a weapon with a higher techlevel. This could be the reason why the non rare weapons do more damage as the rare weapons.


Massi

Where are the damage logs to back up your conclusions?

The numbers you see in those Info screens mean nothing. There is no damage cap. How much damage do these weapons do per shot to a Capped Tank, wearing no armor, with 0 in all resists.
That will give you much more meaningful data.

Massaker
17-10-13, 11:33
I shot on a tank with no resists and no armor and it was the same result. the non rares of a tank and apu do more damage than the rares... I can retry the test but alone its very boring and takes to much time. If you want to help with the tests write me a pm or direct me

Cursed Shadow
17-10-13, 12:25
Thank you, was just trying to get more facts :P

Seems like, as Bragi described, there are still lingering issues then.

If you've tested this and these are the results, then there must be some issues.

Out of interest, is the APU damage good? haven't tested that personally.

Jabal
17-10-13, 16:33
i have tested some pistol on mutant cyclops at the MB.

spy : PC:180 , TC:133 , WEP:125

tl 75 , tangent epic pistol : good pistol in all the way , with is double beam i found it very powerfull ( 1 clip +1shoot for taking down a cyclop)
tl 105 ,beam of hell : well after the tangent epic and is double beam the beam of hell seem not so powerfull ( 13 shoot for taking down a cyclop ). maybe the beam of hell need the same mod of fire than the tt epic and less damage or a light boost to dammage.

tl 92 , pulse laser : good weapon , less than a clip per cyclop
tl 103 , slasher : i see the difference with the tl 92 , more dammage , less ammo used per cyclop ( mostly one or 2 shoot less)

for the info in the stat panel , all the guns made more dammage then the TL up , less freq /aiming/ dammage percent .

one things intrigue me: the range:
then the tl up the range grow , always ( like 336 meter for the tl92 and 366meter for the tl 103 ).

i hope this info be usefull , give some return if you want more test on high tech pistol.

RogerRamjet
17-10-13, 16:45
I think the TT epic definitely needs to come under scrutiny. Even on the retail server the TT cannon can outdamage a creed (tested by opening fire on a mob and the same time and seeing who gets the loot). Maybe the 2 shots makes it more powerful? Maybe add 2 shots to other beam weapons?

Massaker
17-10-13, 19:19
An other example are the plasma pistols and rifles.

Anyplasma rifle or plasma pistol has a burst of 2 shots and one burst of the plasma cannon has 4 shots. A tank has a little bit more stamina than a spy and can handle the stamina consumption more efficient than a spy. A spy must use a stamina booster after one clip and a tank can shot 2 clip without a stamina booster. I think it would be nice to modify the burst of rifles and pistols to a 3 shot or 4 shot burst to make the plasma rifles and pistols more viable.

What do you think?

RogerRamjet
17-10-13, 23:02
^ Agree. First love is practically useless.

Divide
17-10-13, 23:36
^ Agree. First love is practically useless.

Not to mention the damage benefit gained from 4-shot bursts in a fast-paced fight where you may only have reticle lock for a fraction of a second. The two-shot burst is a major detriment to that scenario, and as mentioned above is a significant stamina drain on a class with the lowest attainable stamina pool in the game. My First Love (which is appropriately named) in NC1 had a burst of 4 plasma globs. Since my first experience with the FL in 2.2, I have missed that mechanic. The damage output has been reduced per hit, and the number of hits per burst have gone down. Double-whammy to what was viewed as a balanced weapon throughout NC1.

Alduin
18-10-13, 12:00
==================================

Deployment #2.1 (http://forum.neocron-game.com/showthread.php?154081-Deployment-2-1-Change-Log) has been released! Please tell us whether this fixes the problem of low TL weapons outdamaging higher TL ones.

==================================

Haliax
18-10-13, 14:24
i have tested some pistol on mutant cyclops at the MB.

spy : PC:180 , TC:133 , WEP:125

tl 75 , tangent epic pistol : good pistol in all the way , with is double beam i found it very powerfull ( 1 clip +1shoot for taking down a cyclop)
tl 105 ,beam of hell : well after the tangent epic and is double beam the beam of hell seem not so powerfull ( 13 shoot for taking down a cyclop ). maybe the beam of hell need the same mod of fire than the tt epic and less damage or a light boost to dammage.

tl 92 , pulse laser : good weapon , less than a clip per cyclop
tl 103 , slasher : i see the difference with the tl 92 , more dammage , less ammo used per cyclop ( mostly one or 2 shoot less)

for the info in the stat panel , all the guns made more dammage then the TL up , less freq /aiming/ dammage percent .

one things intrigue me: the range:
then the tl up the range grow , always ( like 336 meter for the tl92 and 366meter for the tl 103 ).

i hope this info be usefull , give some return if you want more test on high tech pistol.

Hi Jabal,

Thank you for your input. Can you do the same tests again after the latest deployment (#2.1) update? You could also test this further in Jeriko Fortress at the Shooting Range. :-)

Jabal
18-10-13, 15:38
i go for making some more test ( with dammage per hit on the dummies ect ) but JERIKO FORTRESS IS GR CLOSED .....thanks guy to close gr in a test serer.

i think i made an extend test with each type of pistol at 3 different tl ( rare , the better tl and the second ) and post it here saturday or sunday.

EDIT :
comming to jeriko and testing some gun , after that 2 smart pvper coming and kill me and one another player "it's a pvp test here" ...

well , if it's going that way all the time i think he take a week for testing all the pistol ...

Baldur
18-10-13, 15:42
i go for making some more test ( with dammage per hit on the dummies ect ) but JERIKO FORTRESS IS GR CLOSED .....thanks guy to close gr in a test serer.



You do not have to travel via Genrep to Jeriko.
There is a warpterminal in the Neocronstruct to Jeriko Fortress (use the warpterminal in Plaza 1 to Neocronstruct first)

Jabal
18-10-13, 16:13
someone give me the tips on sparta , one more time :)

the problem is if the others player only think about killing ... it's mostly impossible to test .

Brammers
18-10-13, 16:27
i go for making some more test ( with dammage per hit on the dummies ect ) but JERIKO FORTRESS IS GR CLOSED .....thanks guy to close gr in a test serer.


Opps - guilty as charged (http://stats.techhaven.org/en/outposts/jeriko-fortress/sparta)! Sorry forgot to open the GR after taking Jeriko on Sparta. Will open it when I can get home later (Or if any other Phoenix members are reading this and can get onto Sparta open it please!)

Or use the warpterminal as Baldur sugguests.

Jabal
18-10-13, 16:31
solution found with one another player !

I made an LE player and use them for the testing.

flib
18-10-13, 20:40
Opps - guilty as charged (http://stats.techhaven.org/en/outposts/jeriko-fortress/sparta)! Sorry forgot to open the GR after taking Jeriko on Sparta. Will open it when I can get home later (Or if any other Phoenix members are reading this and can get onto Sparta open it please!)

Alright, I think I set it right.

Jabal
18-10-13, 21:38
made the new char , going to jeriko ... only fight area with dm and no doll at all , if things going like that i dont loose my time for doing test in impossible conditions.

Bragi
18-10-13, 22:45
made the new char , going to jeriko ... only fight area with dm and no doll at all , if things going like that i dont loose my time for doing test in impossible conditions.
The NPCs are getting pushed through the OP walls. Check behind them to the SE of the OP. We are looking towards a solution.

If you cannot use them, then in the meantime, test against other runners or mobs. You can also check the per-hit damage of a weapon by looking on the info screen (though it needs to be loaded first).
We are currently focused on TL scaling, so we are interested in the difference in damage proportions between different weapons of the same type, though the NPCs help, testing against any consistent target will be of use.

greatunknown
18-10-13, 23:07
Preview of the current DPM model

http://i.imgur.com/5VAHm2V.png?1

Basically, this is the current model (on TITAN). I have tested hybrids and they are weakest. Droners and APUs haven't been discussed, and melee is getting better. The rest is about on par.

greatunknown
18-10-13, 23:08
Melee is being improved. But going foward, the DPM curve should be more balanced and not favor spies/tanks so heavily, and promote melee/droners//Apus/hybrids (APU/PPU, MC/HC and HC PEs) more.

Jabal
18-10-13, 23:08
test char :
spy PC: 195 , TC: 150 WEP: 125 ( fa and jeriko is fa i have the bonus)

nota : in all weapon tested the sheet give me more dammage than i do at the doll.
weapons is not modded .

PULSE LASER PISTOL :

-tl 103 slasher : 147 per hit *3 ( for one shoot) freq : 147/min
-tl92 : 139 per hit*3 , freq : 149
-tl64 : 116 per hit*3 , freq: 150

PLASMA PISTOL :

-tl 100 judge : 153 per hit *2 , freq 212
-tl 80 : 141 per hit *2 , freq 218
-tl 68 : 131 per hit *2 , freq 218

LASER PISTOL :

-tl 105 beam of hell : 270 per hit , freq 81
-tl 75 tangent epic : 184 per hit *2 , freq 120
-tl 65 jordan spécial: 228 per hit , freq 75

RAYGUN :

-tl 108 last hope : 324 per hit ( at 5 meter aprox) freq : 72
-tl 86 blacksun : 302 per hit ( at 5 meter aprox) freq : 80
-tl 74 : 275 per hit ( at 5 m aprox) freq : 80

voila , for a first run.

Bragi
18-10-13, 23:54
That's looking more like it (and the kind of reporting that we need at this stage).

Please test as many different weapon types as you can.


nota : in all weapon tested the sheet give me more dammage than i do at the doll.
weapons is not modded .
Yes. Other factors come into play before the base damage indicated on a weapon affects a mob or player, even with no resists. However the proportions should still be the same.

Edit:
For those of you testing APU weapons; Remember that the degree of reticule closure affects damage. Full reticule lock tests are preferred (Ie, point blank, unmoving).

Jabal
19-10-13, 08:17
test char :
spy , PC : 185 , TC : 140 , WEP : 125 ( not the same char because i cant use the tl 112 fusion with the LE one).

FUSION PISTOL ( dammage growing fast with some distance)

-tl 112 : 113 per hit *2 ( at 5 m aprox) freq 138
-tl 83 : 98 per hit *2 ( at 5 m aprox) freq 149
-tl 71 : 92 per hit *2 ( at 5 m aprox ) freq 150

( the doll go in the wall very fast , i cant made more test for now )

JAP
20-10-13, 11:00
Test Char:

Tank, MC: 203, WEP: 87, ATL: 100, AGL: 154

https://www.dropbox.com/s/lqacvwe0vcb2g8p/MC%20Weapon%20DMG%20Output.pdf

RogerRamjet
20-10-13, 13:42
A suggestion for the issue of non-rares outdamaging rares (and keeping lower level rares viable), would it be easier to introduce a cap on non-rares and leave rares uncappable like they are now?

Bragi
20-10-13, 14:41
@Jap:
Are those the Damage% values from the info screen or per-hit values from the test npc?


A suggestion for the issue of non-rares outdamaging rares (and keeping lower level rares viable), would it be easier to introduce a cap on non-rares and leave rares uncappable like they are now?
The problem then is that only one setup is viable/available for a given low TL weapon, rather than the possibility of variation in it's use. We would rather get all the weapons base performance correct first before any other actions.

Hell-demon
20-10-13, 14:51
Can you boost damage on melee? Please?

Also get rid of the ath minus on melee power armour. It makes no sense.

1. We need speed

2. ATH goes towards the damage of melee weapons

3. No need for a 3 because 1 and 2 were so fookin' good :D

JAP
20-10-13, 17:34
@ Bragi:

I tested it on the NPCs so it is the dmg per hit. The Freq is from the info Screen.

And here the next one.

Test Char:

Monk, PSU 218, APU: 200, FCS: 125, PSR: 50

https://www.dropbox.com/s/0k5aa5zpbvdc61v/PSI%20Weapon%20DMG%20Output.pdf

https://www.dropbox.com/s/pfz2pjeiei1xbzf/PSI%20Weapon%20DMG%20Output%202.pdf

The TL 70 Spell makes the most dmg of all. All tested on the NPCs again. Some Spells doesn't make any dmg on the NPCs but i can kill Dr. Frankenstein with it. In the first Picture you can see the list with the spells which doesn't make any dmg. The second one is without them, so that the curve is much better to see.

Khorwin
20-10-13, 17:48
Hello every one.
I'm not sure but using a simple curve for the increse of dpm with the tool lvl is a mistake.

The idea that using a tll 115 is harder than a tl 110 is only good when you are leveling the character. Once your capped this truth became false.
Let see for exemple a spy using a Disruptor (115) and and a Healing light (110), what would be your poking template for using both of those weapon.
Area MC5 Distance Projector, Special Forces CPU, Experimental Reflex booster V2.4, Wisdom of Ceres Silver Assassinationsuit and surely a dex golve like Machina Recycle Glove. This gave 119 DEX and is a good template for both weapons.
You can also make the same with pistol combat that also works.

Another exemple with apu modules.
Let's see. MC5, CCC, CAG3: 111 PSI (main skill) Do you think that APU modules from 101 to 110 (rare stuff) are more and more harder to use? As they require the same brain and glove poking template, I don't think so.

I coming to my idea, curve is not the solution, using the following graph should be a better way.

http://sdrv.ms/19ksU26

PS: You can see that rifle and apu are one the same graph, that doesn't mean that 100% DPM of rifle is the same absolute value than 100% DPM APU psi modules. Every weapon class would have a different DPM that's why I use percents.
Hopping skydrive link works :)

Torg
20-10-13, 19:31
I'm not sure but using a simple curve for the increse of dpm with the tool lvl is a mistake.yes. but. weapon damage is not (hasnt been, wont become) related to TL only. theres also your main combat skill (ie RC) and one or two secondary skills (like WEP, TC). the TL graph is just a start, a rough balancing. imho.

Bragi
20-10-13, 21:32
yes. but. weapon damage is not (hasnt been, wont become) related to TL only. theres also your main combat skill (ie RC) and one or two secondary skills (like WEP, TC). the TL graph is just a start, a rough balancing. imho.
Indeed. The new curve is one part of the process. The a later stage will make clear what we are aiming for.

@JAP
Are those number current data from Deployment #2.1 or #2?

RogerRamjet
20-10-13, 22:59
Hello every one.
I'm not sure but using a simple curve for the increse of dpm with the tool lvl is a mistake.

The idea that using a tll 115 is harder than a tl 110 is only good when you are leveling the character. Once your capped this truth became false.
Let see for exemple a spy using a Disruptor (115) and and a Healing light (110), what would be your poking template for using both of those weapon.
Area MC5 Distance Projector, Special Forces CPU, Experimental Reflex booster V2.4, Wisdom of Ceres Silver Assassinationsuit and surely a dex golve like Machina Recycle Glove. This gave 119 DEX and is a good template for both weapons.
You can also make the same with pistol combat that also works.

Another exemple with apu modules.
Let's see. MC5, CCC, CAG3: 111 PSI (main skill) Do you think that APU modules from 101 to 110 (rare stuff) are more and more harder to use? As they require the same brain and glove poking template, I don't think so.

I coming to my idea, curve is not the solution, using the following graph should be a better way.

http://sdrv.ms/19ksU26

PS: You can see that rifle and apu are one the same graph, that doesn't mean that 100% DPM of rifle is the same absolute value than 100% DPM APU psi modules. Every weapon class would have a different DPM that's why I use percents.
Hopping skydrive link works :)

My personal hope is that if you wish to use the highest tl weapons and be effective (most damage, used to be called cookie cutter?) you have to sacrifice resists and speed. Maybe formula changes will be required, I don't know for certain.

As an old example on one end of the scale once over you had say Executioner/Healing Light PEs, all dex chips, black PA, but relatively slow and poor defence, and at the other end you had Pain easer private eyes, excellent resist set ups and runspeed, but not a huge amount of damage (but definitely good enough to get the job done).

The offset should be, in my opinion, damage vs resists vs speed.

Agent L
20-10-13, 23:29
http://sdrv.ms/19ksU26YEAH!
In this way, an APU choosing between TL81 Holy Energy Halo and TL92 Holy Toxic Halo changes damage TYPE not AMOUNT.
I believe this is very important, both for balancing and gameplay.

Ascension
20-10-13, 23:37
YEAH!
In this way, an APU choosing between TL81 Holy Energy Halo and TL92 Holy Toxic Halo changes damage TYPE not AMOUNT.
I believe this is very important, both for balancing and gameplay.

There needs to be a rare poison beam, to assist with balancing.

Dribble Joy
21-10-13, 01:03
The offset should be, in my opinion, damage vs resists vs speed.
And back in NC1 you also had the choice of using a lower tl weapon better, by swapping out a dex or str chip for a pc/rc or hc/mc chip.
I used a moveon over a targetting 3, which another judge user went with. I had higher defences, but less dmg output for the same tl weapon.

Neallys
21-10-13, 01:18
And back in NC1 you also had the choice of using a lower tl weapon better, by swapping out a dex or str chip for a pc/rc or hc/mc chip.
I used a moveon over a targetting 3, which another judge user went with. I had higher defences, but less dmg output for the same tl weapon.

Good point. I liked that system in NC1 and I really do believe this eases the balancing problems we currently have. There was a damage cap fairly easily to reach and players would swap implants, thus creating a balance only with chips mainly. A PE termi would be very good at doing damage, but with more DEX implants and thus, less resists, an Exec/Slasher PE had a better DPS, while the Termi PE would remain very viable with more resists.

It just makes sense to me, we need a damage cap like there used to be.

JAP
21-10-13, 07:45
@ Bragi

I made this test yesterday.

Dribble Joy
21-10-13, 08:40
Good point. I liked that system in NC1 and I really do believe this eases the balancing problems we currently have. There was a damage cap fairly easily to reach and players would swap implants, thus creating a balance only with chips mainly. A PE termi would be very good at doing damage, but with more DEX implants and thus, less resists, an Exec/Slasher PE had a better DPS, while the Termi PE would remain very viable with more resists.

It just makes sense to me, we need a damage cap like there used to be.
Actually, in NC1, while there was an easily attainable dmg cap, freq was a different matter (at least for PEs). The Judge user I mentioned got ~178 rpm, while I got 165, so there was variation for each weapon. It wasn't until I got my kami that I capped freq.

RogerRamjet
21-10-13, 08:57
And back in NC1 you also had the choice of using a lower tl weapon better, by swapping out a dex or str chip for a pc/rc or hc/mc chip.
I used a moveon over a targetting 3, which another judge user went with. I had higher defences, but less dmg output for the same tl weapon.

I always thought the end of NC1 weapons and classes were pretty much spot on, maybe APU/PPUs aside. I think capping aiming on a CS was difficult on a tank even with pure HC and PA on. But things like the HC eye didn't exist back then I guess, although the Marine was a much better chip.

Cursed Shadow
21-10-13, 11:57
There needs to be a rare poison beam, to assist with balancing.



I think that there should be a variety of Rare Halos added to game, as well as other class's weapons which are monster drop only, with a low chance of dropping, with random stats and slots. Holy Toxification (Drop from the Kri'nakh Shaman), Holy Conflagration (Drop from Chaos Queen), and Holy Electrocution (Drop from Apparition in Worm Tunnels).

**I'm not saying that these are the BEST ideas ever, but they'd keep people busy, and make things interesting whilst the PVP balancing is going on in the background.

I mentioned this in the past^

Rare Version of Beam = Direct Damage
Rare Version of Halos = Stacking DoT

I think this makes the most sense, and gives APUs another tool for their arsenal.
Do you want to stack people up to the eyeballs or go for the hard hitting direct damage?

Cursed Shadow
21-10-13, 12:02
Can you boost damage on melee? Please?

Also get rid of the ath minus on melee power armour. It makes no sense.

1. We need speed

2. ATH goes towards the damage of melee weapons

3. No need for a 3 because 1 and 2 were so fookin' good :D

Personal Opinion: Melee PA should have a Body Health mallus

It introduces a problem, like most other PAs do... except for Spies... which is just bollocks and needs sorting out too.

HC Tanks sacrifice runspeed due to their cannons.
MC Tanks sacrifice health by wearing a large armor-suit.

It gives some flexibility and creates a trade-off.

Thoughts?

Agent L
21-10-13, 15:03
I always thought the end of NC1 weapons and classes were pretty much spot on, maybe APU/PPUs aside. I think capping aiming on a CS was difficult on a tank even with pure HC and PA on. But things like the HC eye didn't exist back then I guess, although the Marine was a much better chip.Same thoughts here.
Maybe start balancing project by reverting to this point when most things worked fine.

Cursed Shadow
21-10-13, 15:05
To my knowledge, they had lost all previous versions of the game code from those older points in time.

Jabal
21-10-13, 17:33
More pistol test :
Spy PC: 178 WEP: 125 TECH: 133

FREEZER PISTOL :
-TL 102 : damage : 197 per hit , Freq : 63
-TL 61 : damage : 155 , Freq : 66
-TL 40 : damage : 127 , Freq : 66

LOW TECH PISTOL :
-TL 88 wyat earp : damage : 214 , Freq : 85
-TL 42 wasteland : damage : 162 , Freq : 75 ( low tech seems to cap freqency at less than rare)
-TL 26 street model : damage : 126 , Freq : 75

SMG :
-TL 91 liberator : damage : 82*4 , Freq : 392
-TL 63 : damage : 71*4 , Freq : 399
-TL 38 : damage : 56*4 , Freq : 399

NAIL GUN :
-TL 107 craftsman : damage : 251 , Freq : 70
-TL 31 : damage : 155 , Freq : 60
-TL 17 : damage : 111 , Freq : 60

GATLING PISTOL :
-TL 110 : damage : 82*4 , Freq : 411 ( mag size : 32)
-TL 77 : damage : 74*4 , Freq : 399 ( mag size : 28)
-TL 59 : damage : 66*4 , freq : 399 ( mag size : 28)

Khorwin
21-10-13, 20:42
yes. but. weapon damage is not (hasnt been, wont become) related to TL only. theres also your main combat skill (ie RC) and one or two secondary skills (like WEP, TC). the TL graph is just a start, a rough balancing. imho.

If you pay attention, nore the graph, nore the text mention sub skills value like RC, PC, APU...
I agree with you, DPM is also related to subskill, the only thing that show this graph is: for a template you won't have to automaticaly choose the hightest TL but you will be able to chose in a panel of 5 or 10 weapons that will have the same DPM. But with another poking template you could choose in another panel of weapons of course the highter is the more you need sub skills to cap.

One exemple: if you have a 115 DEX template that cap Disruptor, you will do the same damages with a first love or a silent hunter, it will only depend one the way you choose to play or weapon you prefere between all over 110 DEX rifles. But if you choose a template that only reach 109 dex you could choose weapon from 100 to 109 without lose of DPM (only a game play choose).
The good thing with storing weapon in pool is the possibility to nerf one specific weapon or the entire pool of weapons if the template is to overpowered.
The good effect on pvp is that peolpe will use different weapon with the same template since how long haven't we see a first love in PVP...

I can see a question coming. Why using HT weapons if some LT (low tech) have the same DPM? That's one I ask me.
In fact there's a solution to this problem, actualy the hardest thing to cap is damage value, but handling should be the hardest to cap. And if we follow this, you can make TC weapon easer to handle cap than LT. Why should the handling of LT weapons harder to cap than HT? I will only say recoil, the more a gun have recoil the harder it's to handle.

In fact, storing weapons by groups would help the balancing, because dev would have to manage with groups and not gun one by one. More over at the end of the balancing it will increase the diversity of weapon used with each template (full or not full main skill). One side effect would be to take out old useless rare from closet. :)

Torg
21-10-13, 22:20
.... but you will be able to chose in a panel of 5 or 10 weapons that will have the same DPM. But with another poking template you could choose in another panel of weapons... of course i can see your point but i'd prefer the semi-random numbers of current neocron over of platforms of equal DPM.

RogerRamjet
22-10-13, 15:11
I can see a question coming. Why using HT weapons if some LT (low tech) have the same DPM? That's one I ask me.




I was going to pose the question myself but you beat me too it. Is that the issue with the WoC weapons for instance? They are all "lotech", so this lets people save a whole bunch of points from speccing hitech and using the most powerful weapons ingame, and boosting the relevant points (pistol/rifle) and having room to spare for agility. I always thought "lotech" weapons should be <tl100, hence lotech rare parts.

Cursed Shadow
22-10-13, 15:29
Guys... No Lowtech weapons that I know of can produce Energy damage. That should be reason enough.

People will be using different weapons to utilize different damage types, frequencies, ranges or DoT/Other effects in the future from the sounds of things, rather than because Weapon A is MUCH BETTER than Weapon B.

Do remember, the damage curve is just the first phase, to establish a damage basis which works for most weapons. Once that is accurate, they can begin tweaking certain items in certain directions.

Bragi
22-10-13, 22:45
Do remember, the damage curve is just the first phase, to establish a damage basis which works for most weapons. Once that is accurate, they can begin tweaking certain items in certain directions.
Quite. Little is being taken for granted, so viewing this first stage as if nothing else will change would be misleading.


I was going to pose the question myself but you beat me too it. Is that the issue with the WoC weapons for instance? They are all "lotech", so this lets people save a whole bunch of points from speccing hitech and using the most powerful weapons ingame, and boosting the relevant points (pistol/rifle) and having room to spare for agility. I always thought "lotech" weapons should be <tl100, hence lotech rare parts.
A long time ago the were no low tech weapons above around TL93 (the pain easer). The effecitve price for higher TL was the TC. More low-techs wanted to be added, but it was realised that, like you say, there would be no point using a TL100 high-tech over a TL100 low-tech, as you would loose out due to the TC requirement.
As such TC was added to the performance of high-tech weapons (mainly focused on frequency to maintain DPM) so that in theory the performance of a weapon of a given TL would be the same regardless of whether it was high- or low-tech.

P.S. As far as I am aware, low tech rare parts are for items under TL90, so most low tech rares never were 'lowtech'. Items under TL100 do only require 5 parts however.

P.P.S. Slightly more on topic, can we get some more test results? I have gathered a lot myself and from you guys but I need more to analyse.

Petalustig
22-10-13, 23:34
@ Bragi:

I tested it on the NPCs so it is the dmg per hit. The Freq is from the info Screen.

And here the next one.

Test Char:

Monk, PSU 218, APU: 200, FCS: 125, PSR: 50

https://www.dropbox.com/s/0k5aa5zpbvdc61v/PSI%20Weapon%20DMG%20Output.pdf

https://www.dropbox.com/s/pfz2pjeiei1xbzf/PSI%20Weapon%20DMG%20Output%202.pdf

The TL 70 Spell makes the most dmg of all. All tested on the NPCs again. Some Spells doesn't make any dmg on the NPCs but i can kill Dr. Frankenstein with it. In the first Picture you can see the list with the spells which doesn't make any dmg. The second one is without them, so that the curve is much better to see.



Nice work Japy i <3 you

greatunknown
23-10-13, 01:34
TEST:
Melee tank

Notes: Low resistances, almost purely offensive (with PA)

Resistances:

(from skills: 8 pierce, 40 +16 force, 53/40/60 +27/15 fire/energy/xray/poison)

Offensive:

243 melee,
85 wpn lore,
86 athletics,
51 endurance,
93 agility,
102 tech combat

Target: Jericko dummy

Weapons: (from highest TL rare to lowest) note: damage is damage dealt to 127/127 dummy /// freq is shots per min

TL 115 - Devils grace - 177 damage, 77 freq, DPM 13629
TL 112 - Paw of Bear - 170 damage, 81 freq, DPM 13770
TL 110 - Thunderbolt - 122 damage, 76 freq, DPM 9272
TL 108 - Zsusun - 187 damage, 74 freq, DPM 13838
TL 108 - Hurler King - 125 damage, 125 freq, DPM 15625
TL 104 - The Dentist - 122 damage, 127 freq, DPM 15494
TL 100 - Blade of Ceres- 199 damage, 64 freq, DPM 12736
TL 97 - Vein Ripper - 137 damage, 94 freq, DPM 12878
TL 94 - Peacemaker - 192 damage, 69 freq, DPM 13248
TL 82 - Perforator - 107 damage, 115 freq, DPM 12305
TL 80 - Paw of Tiger - 142 damage, 83 freq, DPM 11786

Results:

The Dentist and Hurler king at TL 104/108 were far ahead (almost 2k+). Reason: high base damage, high freq
Thunderbolt was 2.5k+ lower than all (yet is only one of TWO high tech melee)

Conclusion:

Melee weapons are fairly balanced, but still deal a lot less damage than Rifles, HC, Pistol.

With an average of about 12k-15k, over 60 seconds, that is (12k / 60 ) 200 to (15k / 60) 250 damage per second assuming all successful hits

RogerRamjet
23-10-13, 16:31
A long time ago the were no low tech weapons above around TL93 (the pain easer). The effecitve price for higher TL was the TC. More low-techs wanted to be added, but it was realised that, like you say, there would be no point using a TL100 high-tech over a TL100 low-tech, as you would loose out due to the TC requirement.
As such TC was added to the performance of high-tech weapons (mainly focused on frequency to maintain DPM) so that in theory the performance of a weapon of a given TL would be the same regardless of whether it was high- or low-tech.


Does the disparity between the First Love (which I use) and a WoC AK come from the bonus of it being a WoC weapon in that case?

Bragi
23-10-13, 17:01
Does the disparity between the First Love (which I use) and a WoC AK come from the bonus of it being a WoC weapon in that case?
In theory. There's also the fact that many weapon types and even individual weapons are inherently under- or over-powered.

@greatunknown:
Cheers, pretty much what I have been getting too.
The thunderbolt is a DoT weapon, so it will only do about 75% of it's intended DPM currently. Once we get the instant damage weapons sorted, we will address the rest.

Cursed Shadow
23-10-13, 17:20
Please can someone ensure that the TL90 Energy Soulblade, which is dropped by The Apparition is tested.
It is a TL90 Laserblade.

To my knowledge it was not in the vendor lists last time I checked.

Bifrost
23-10-13, 17:40
Please can someone ensure that the TL90 Energy Soulblade, which is dropped by The Apparition is tested.
It is a TL90 Laserblade.

To my knowledge it was not in the vendor lists last time I checked.

There is an NPC giving out the TL90 Energy Soulblade. Look for Mr Soulblade near the Melee weapons vendors.

Cursed Shadow
23-10-13, 17:52
Yay for Mr Soulblade.

@greatunknown can you test this with your setup so that it is in-line with your other results?
Also, as an FYI you have missed the Electric Tempest from your tests.
http://www.techhaven.org/db/showitem/2428.html

I can then test all of the above of @greatunknown with a different setup and see if the same results ring true

Jabal
23-10-13, 18:37
Have you see this bragi ??


More pistol test :
Spy PC: 178 WEP: 125 TECH: 133

FREEZER PISTOL :
-TL 102 : damage : 197 per hit , Freq : 63
-TL 61 : damage : 155 , Freq : 66
-TL 40 : damage : 127 , Freq : 66

LOW TECH PISTOL :
-TL 88 wyat earp : damage : 214 , Freq : 85
-TL 42 wasteland : damage : 162 , Freq : 75 ( low tech seems to cap freqency at less than rare)
-TL 26 street model : damage : 126 , Freq : 75

SMG :
-TL 91 liberator : damage : 82*4 , Freq : 392
-TL 63 : damage : 71*4 , Freq : 399
-TL 38 : damage : 56*4 , Freq : 399

NAIL GUN :
-TL 107 craftsman : damage : 251 , Freq : 70
-TL 31 : damage : 155 , Freq : 60
-TL 17 : damage : 111 , Freq : 60

GATLING PISTOL :
-TL 110 : damage : 82*4 , Freq : 411 ( mag size : 32)
-TL 77 : damage : 74*4 , Freq : 399 ( mag size : 28)
-TL 59 : damage : 66*4 , freq : 399 ( mag size : 28)

what you want exactly ?? more test on other TL or you need some test on rifle ???

Bragi
23-10-13, 20:42
what you want exactly ?? more test on other TL or you need some test on rifle ???
The other weapon types for pistol would be good (plasma, pulse laser, laser, fusion etc.) for the moment.

Jabal
23-10-13, 21:06
test char :
spy PC: 195 , TC: 150 WEP: 125 ( fa and jeriko is fa i have the bonus)

nota : in all weapon tested the sheet give me more dammage than i do at the doll.
weapons is not modded .

PULSE LASER PISTOL :

-tl 103 slasher : 147 per hit *3 ( for one shoot) freq : 147/min
-tl92 : 139 per hit*3 , freq : 149
-tl64 : 116 per hit*3 , freq: 150

PLASMA PISTOL :

-tl 100 judge : 153 per hit *2 , freq 212
-tl 80 : 141 per hit *2 , freq 218
-tl 68 : 131 per hit *2 , freq 218

LASER PISTOL :

-tl 105 beam of hell : 270 per hit , freq 81
-tl 75 tangent epic : 184 per hit *2 , freq 120
-tl 65 jordan spécial: 228 per hit , freq 75

RAYGUN :

-tl 108 last hope : 324 per hit ( at 5 meter aprox) freq : 72
-tl 86 blacksun : 302 per hit ( at 5 meter aprox) freq : 80
-tl 74 : 275 per hit ( at 5 m aprox) freq : 80

voila , for a first run.

in fact i have made all the pistol with a rare in it .

Bragi
23-10-13, 21:25
In that case, rifles would be good.

Jabal
23-10-13, 22:41
test char :
spy , PC : 185 , TC : 140 , WEP : 125 ( not the same char because i cant use the tl 112 fusion with the LE one).

FUSION PISTOL ( dammage growing fast with some distance)

-tl 112 : 113 per hit *2 ( at 5 m aprox) freq 138
-tl 83 : 98 per hit *2 ( at 5 m aprox) freq 149
-tl 71 : 92 per hit *2 ( at 5 m aprox ) freq 150

( the doll go in the wall very fast , i cant made more test for now )

i quote this one too . looming for rifle tomorow and made some test.

Bragi
24-10-13, 17:27
i quote this one too . looming for rifle tomorow and made some test.
Could you test the high tech rifles first, and then lom your TC into RC. That will give us a better idea how how the two systems compare.

If you've already started testing low tech weapons with TC, carry on, then lom and re-test. That will also give a good idea about how the sub-skills play a part.

Jabal
25-10-13, 20:55
i am unable to enter in sparta , one of my char is blocked in syncro and i cant delette them or load one another , sorry .

Bragi
26-10-13, 12:03
I can login just fine at the moment, could you try again?

If it still doesn't work, have you changed or know of any change to your connection/computer recently?

Jabal
26-10-13, 12:37
i just come from sparta , problem solved ! :)

i have made the char for pistol , mc5 pluged and the higher pa . i can remake all the pistol test with a higher skill , after that i made the rifle. ( sunday or monday , to much irl stuff for now)

Powerpunsh
08-03-14, 02:14
So whats up now? Checked sparta and the settings are not the best (Got told they get tossed). May i ask why do you try to change weapondamage? In my opinion it is the "glasscannonness" of spys monks and PE's which makes PVP bad. Only stealth makes PEs and Spys viable. If drugs wouldnt push the runspeed that much both were useless either.
An improved survivability for all classes beside the tank would also make PVE way better. At the moment just buffed tanks can face to face highlvl mobs.

Teal`c
08-03-14, 19:38
Changing the weapondamage is neccessary to increase the length of the fights in general. In comparison to neocron 1 itsm uch shorter:
cursed soul damage per burst to a tank : ~ 60
health of tank : ~ 595

neocron2:
cursed soul damage per burst to a tank : ~ 180
health of tank : ~ 1000-1200

It will also increase the amount of weapons who are viable in pvp - TL 75+.

Powerpunsh
08-03-14, 23:47
Neocron 1 Tank resistances: 72-76% Energy
Neocron 2 Tank resistances: 60-65% Energy

I can make setups which can last me a whole clip. If i do this im a glasscannon against a devourer.
Anyways i dont talk about tanks i talk about the other 3 glasscannon classes which only reach 50-60% resistances for just 1 damagetype. :)

roachman6k3
25-03-14, 21:48
In order to further testing I need to test the DPS of various weapons on a consistent NPC of some sort, correct? I am ready to help, and I am wondering if I should start from the beginning or if I should start on rifles as a more recent post stated.

William Antrim
26-03-14, 15:02
Ideally you need another player roachman. Its more pvp balancing but if you use the same mob over and over that would work also. It just would give slightly different results.