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Kronos
04-10-13, 21:10
Runners,

To generally discuss the changes made in Deployment#1 (http://forum.neocron-game.com/showthread.php?153520-Sparta-Deployment-1-Change-Log), please use this thread.

Divide
04-10-13, 23:06
I can't freaking wait to test this. Really intrigued by the TL curve and ammo mod damage changes. As someone who prefers to PVP on a spy over other classes, and someone who is still getting to know the resist system as it has changed from 8 years ago, I am very much looking forward to (and praying for) an increase in damage for the First Love as is to be inferred by the TL ramp and an improvement to my overall mitigation. I don't know what it is about the new system but my spy's resists, while greater than they ever were in nc1, seem to be severely lacking or misleading which is causing too many whippings for my taste.

Bruder Malmsdoo
04-10-13, 23:08
New Runner receives the agogé now

RogerRamjet
04-10-13, 23:32
Will the bonuses for epic, rare and WoC ever be reintroduced?

Forget My Name
04-10-13, 23:47
And so starts the journal of a Melee Tank :)

I CAN'T WAIT!!!!!

Bragi
05-10-13, 00:25
Will the bonuses for epic, rare and WoC ever be reintroduced?

We do not intend to. We want there to be no difference in viability (in theory) between any weapon type.

More choice will become apparent when we make further changes.

Dropout
05-10-13, 00:32
We do not intend to. We want there to be no difference in viability (in theory) between any weapon type.

More choice will become apparent when we make further changes.

Music to my ears <3

Droidle
05-10-13, 00:55
Melee Combat Weapons

At the moment Melee Combat Weapons are just good in a non buffed 1v1 fight, but not useable for real big fights over time
and with PPU Support.

The way to mod M-C Weapons is also not the biggest, 3 mods for non T-C and 3+ Ultima for a T-C (which no one plays atm in PvP,
if someone plays M-C in PvP :P)

So the idea is to bring more mods and a bigger overview for the weapons, like the Devo, AK or the Pistols with a DOT (Damage over Time)
mod.

For Weapons like, Vain Reaper, paw of bear or Tsusun.








Melee Combat Weapons.


Zurzeit sind M-C Waffen nur effektiv in einem 1v1 gegen einen ungebufften Gegner, sobald es an kämpfe geht wo Leute
von PPUs supportet werden sieht es schlecht aus.

Die Auswahl an Mods die man für M-C Waffen hat ist auch nicht die größte, 3 für normal und 3+Ultima für T-C Waffen
(Welche derzeit von M-C Spielern im PP nicht benutzt werden)

Die Idee wäre also eine größere Vielfalt an Mods zu erschaffen, mods wie es sie für den Devourer die AK oder diverse
Pistolen gibt. DOT ( Damage over time) mods und oder mods mit diversen Schadensarten.

Natürlich nicht für alle M-C Waffen, eher für Waffen wie die Vain Reaper, Paw of Bear oder Tsusun.

(Persönlich hätte ich auch nichts gegen ne Taschenlampe für den Peacemaker :)

RogerRamjet
05-10-13, 01:12
We do not intend to. We want there to be no difference in viability (in theory) between any weapon type.

More choice will become apparent when we make further changes.

That is excellent news, but it might have the unforeseen circumstance of some lower level rares and the epics becoming becoming obsolete or worthless, or will there be less overlap with high end shop bought weaponry?

PS excellent signature

Bragi
05-10-13, 01:22
We aim to bring lower TL weapons into viability through later changes.
As was mentioned in the Deployment #1 thread, the current system does not promote lower TL weapons. We hope to address this in subsequent alterations.

PS Cheers!

Doc Holliday
05-10-13, 06:33
That is excellent news, but it might have the unforeseen circumstance of some lower level rares and the epics becoming becoming obsolete or worthless, or will there be less overlap with high end shop bought weaponry?

PS excellent signature


Rome wasnt built in a day roger :) Time will change these things.

Forget My Name
05-10-13, 09:41
I must say, Melee weapons sure are strong at early levels. With a starting Melee Tank in TG Canyon, I can go into the level 12 cave and basically live inside and kill everything without much effort until I was around base 25 strength. Starting Knuckle was dealing around 30 damage to most critters. The TL 30something Artifact Face Scratcher was dealing 109 damage with each swipe.

Of course, when I left the TG canyon, I could only farm that single camp of mutants as down the road there were all the end game fire mobs chilling everywhere.

Agent L
05-10-13, 10:10
[...]it might have the unforeseen circumstance of some lower level rares and the epics becoming becoming obsolete or worthlessYeah, like today nothing is obsolete or worthless : )
Imho that's the matter or balancing mods. Rares have better quality and less slots, while nonrares are capped at 99% with 5 slots being available (it's merely matter of patience).

Agent L
05-10-13, 10:19
@Kronos:
1) about ammo - are you planning to decrease the bit overwhelming amount of ammunition? At least the "almost same" ammo like plasma cannon and wave?
2) isn't the ramp on TL/dmg graph duplicating same thing done already by 2 systems:
- smaller xp thresholds on lower levels to make first lvl ups faster
- the 50/75/100 rule making increase of first skill lvls faster

My point is: The more systems you have doing same thing, the harder it is to control.

Satan2k2
05-10-13, 11:46
First of all.. Hello :D

1. How do I say this.. with the introduce with the WoC weapons and the balancing right after, the DoT from all other weapons were removed (except grenades and flamer) and were at a disadvantage, like the wyatt earp, desperado and so on. All single shot weapons were DoT weapons with the right mod, even the psi spells. But this all got removed. Maybe this should be reintroduced.

2. Some feedback: Right now on Sparta the Weapons are doing high dmg (as you wrote in the thread). But how does it happen, that the weapons are doing nearly zero damage on shielded enemies? Is this of the current changes of burst removed?

Bragi
05-10-13, 12:09
2. Some feedback: Right now on Sparta the Weapons are doing high dmg (as you wrote in the thread). But how does it happen, that the weapons are doing nearly zero damage on shielded enemies? Is this of the current changes of burst removed?

Can you be more specific? Are these self-casted shields or foreign-casted? What weapon were you using with what (if any) ammo mod? What type of character were you shooting? What were the values per hit with and without shields?

Has anyone else come across this?

Haliax
05-10-13, 12:54
Melee Combat Weapons

At the moment Melee Combat Weapons are just good in a non buffed 1v1 fight, but not useable for real big fights over time
and with PPU Support.


Yes we are aware of this issue. But as stated in the initial post we are currently looking at 1on1 fights. Once we have that in a good state we will have a look at PPU support issues.

It is not only melee weapons by the way. An APU has nearly the same problem.

Hell-demon
05-10-13, 12:56
Melee damage is worse for some reason. On Terra my TL108 Zsusun sword does 152 damage to a genotoxic mutant. On Sparta with over 240 in melee my sword does a poxy 110 damage. A vein ripper does 108 on sparta and thats tl 97. What is going on?

Also the pop numbers on sparta do not look good. We need more testers and someone who can poke.

Please buff melee damage.

Droidle
05-10-13, 13:48
Yes we are aware of this issue. But as stated in the initial post we are currently looking at 1on1 fights. Once we have that in a good state we will have a look at PPU support issues.

It is not only melee weapons by the way. An APU has nearly the same problem.



Yes .. I know that, also i wrote my idea of a solution for it ...

Bragi
05-10-13, 15:15
Melee damage is worse for some reason. On Terra my TL108 Zsusun sword does 152 damage to a genotoxic mutant. On Sparta with over 240 in melee my sword does a poxy 110 damage. A vein ripper does 108 on sparta and thats tl 97. What is going on?
The DPM values for some of the melee weapons were reduced to bring them in line with the other weapon types (the Zsuzun was doing almost as much DPM as the Paw of Bear and considerably more than most Heavy, Rifle and Pistol weapons of the same TL), plus the correction modifiers were reset so we can look at things from a fresh perspective. As mentioned, the main issue with melee is not down to their damage output and from what we have seen 1 vs 1 they seem to be performing well (though more testing is welcome).

PvE damage will be dealt with in a later phase.

However, that is the sort of data we need to see. Seeing how steep the DPM curve is in practice is a key part of this. Could you post what dmg% and frequency values you get on those two weapons? Fresh instant damage values against a player with equal piercing and poison resist/armour would be good too.

Hell-demon
05-10-13, 16:05
The DPM values for some of the melee weapons were reduced to bring them in line with the other weapon types (the Zsuzun was doing almost as much DPM as the Paw of Bear and considerably more than most Heavy, Rifle and Pistol weapons of the same TL), plus the correction modifiers were reset so we can look at things from a fresh perspective. As mentioned, the main issue with melee is not down to their damage output and from what we have seen 1 vs 1 they seem to be performing well (though more testing is welcome).

PvE damage will be dealt with in a later phase.

However, that is the sort of data we need to see. Seeing how steep the DPM curve is in practice is a key part of this. Could you post what dmg% and frequency values you get on those two weapons? Fresh instant damage values against a player with equal piercing and poison resist/armour would be good too.

Okay I'll test out a few weapons and post the data but I can't do much without my mc5 chip being poked. We need an automatic poking machine or something otherwise we can't test some setups. We need pokers and we need more people testing stuff.

If I could offer my 2 cents on the matter of melee it would be it does need a damage boost. In 1 on 1 fights it may be good but pistol users, rifles (especially), heavy and psi can all dictate range. Melee have to get up close and personal and by the time the distance has been closed a few shots have already been fired.

Melee also degrades super fast. In some cases it damages with every swing. Frequency of attacks is off on some weapons. A vein ripper attack twice in the span it takes to swing a sword (which seems reasonable), but brass knuckles attack at the same rate as a sword or claw. Perhaps tweak the smaller lighter weapons to have faster speeds but degrade faster? I don't know - just putting it out there.

Also when the time comes please remove the malus of athletics from higher tier power armour. Melee users need speed.

I'll post some stats soon just need a fecking poke.

Edit: Reverse Lom salesman sells nothing. Please fix =)

Ascension
05-10-13, 16:09
can we not just set the poke subskill requirement to 0 so anyone can poke?

Hell-demon
05-10-13, 16:55
Finally got poked! My mistake on the frequency of knuckles they are quite fast. So no need to tweek them. Okay lets begin:

Character Stats:

116 STR

Melee Combat: 242 (150 without gear and drugs)

Weapon Lore: 87 (85 without gear)

Endurance: 56 (40 without gear)

Agility: 130 (100 without gear)

Ath: 92 (75 without gear)

I believe those are all the skills that affect melee combat stats (might be wrong about ATH)

So onto weapons. All of these are artifact rares:

Paw of Tiger (TL 80):

DAMAGE: 160
AIMING: 250
SHOT FREQUENCY: 83 +8


Perforator (TL 82):

DAMAGE: 159
AIMING: 250
SHOT FREQUENCY: 115 +16


Peacemaker (TL 94):

DAMAGE: 150
AIMING: 221
SHOT FREQUENCY: 69 +9

Vein Ripper (TL 97):

DAMAGE: 148
AIMING: 215
SHOT FREQUENCY: 95 +10


Blade of Ceres (TL 100):

DAMAGE: 147
AIMING: 210
SHOT FREQUENCY: 64 +4

Dentist (TL 104):

DAMAGE: 145
AIMING: 203
SHOT FREQUENCY: 127 +28

Hurler King Knuckles (TL 108):

DAMAGE: 143
AIMING: 197
SHOT FREQUENCY: 126 +27

Zsusun (TL 108):

DAMAGE: 143
AIMING: 197
SHOT FREQUENCY: 74 +8

Paw of Bear (TL 113):

DAMAGE: 141
AIMING: 191
SHOT FREQUENCY:81 +6



That's it. I will test out high tech in a bit and possibly pvp.

Satan2k2
05-10-13, 17:07
Can you be more specific? Are these self-casted shields or foreign-casted? What weapon were you using with what (if any) ammo mod? What type of character were you shooting? What were the values per hit with and without shields?

Has anyone else come across this?

Foreign casted shields (self casted are even more uber :)) and heal.

Weapons used were: Ray of Last Hope (Dunno) from Spy, Cursed Soul (Radiation) from Tank, Devourer (War Gas) from Tank, Fire Apocalypse from APU

All fighting free for all. But duel between both Tanks and Tank with Spy and Spy with APU also happend.

Damage:
Devourer vs Spy: w/o shields about 140 dmg + DoT, with shields/heal about 30 - 40 dmg + DoT
Fire Apoc vs Spy: w/o shields about 70-80 dmg, with shields/heal about 20 - 30 dmg
Devourer vs Tank: w/o shields about 110 dmg + DoT, with shields/heal about 30 - 40 dmg + DoT
Coursed Soul vs Tank: w/o shields i dunno anymore but about 60 - 70 per salve, but with shields/heal 20 - 30 dmg per salve
Fire Apoc vs Tank: w/o shields about 50 - 60 dmg, with shields/heal nearly nothing

Be aware that the dmg is with heal proc.

Bragi
05-10-13, 19:17
Could you try that again without heals?

Helldemon: Could you test instant damages of all those weapons against a player with equal resist values and no armour?
P.S. We would like to solve the range issue melee users have without resorting to simply increasing their damage, that will come later though, nothing is sacred however, so we may have to increase it anyway. The current focus is on how the weapons themselves behave with relation to each other as a base to work from rather than individual class balance. It WILL be addressed at a later stage.
We are keenly aware of the degradation issue too and can assure you it's on the to-do list.

Hell-demon
05-10-13, 20:23
Could you try that again without heals?

Helldemon: Could you test instant damages of all those weapons against a player with equal resist values and no armour?
P.S. We would like to solve the range issue melee users have without resorting to simply increasing their damage, that will come later though, nothing is sacred however, so we may have to increase it anyway. The current focus is on how the weapons themselves behave with relation to each other as a base to work from rather than individual class balance. It WILL be addressed at a later stage.
We are keenly aware of the degradation issue too and can assure you it's on the to-do list.

That will be slightly tricky as the sparta pop is low and I dunno if anyone will be a human punching bag for the sack of testing. But we shall see.

So what do you want exactly? Should I fight someone with 50 in all resists and no armour?

Hell-demon
05-10-13, 21:08
Zoltan helped me out. Here's what I got:

Character Stats:

116 STR

Melee Combat: 242 (150 without gear and drugs)

Weapon Lore: 87 (85 without gear)

Endurance: 56 (40 without gear)

Agility: 130 (100 without gear)

Ath: 92 (75 without gear)

Tech Combat: 106

Following rares were tested on Zoltan who has 255 in all skills and resists (no armour). I hit him once with each rare.:

Paw of Tiger (TL 80):

DAMAGE: 160
AIMING: 250
SHOT FREQUENCY: 83 +8

Initial DMG when hit: 19

Perforator (TL 82):

DAMAGE: 159
AIMING: 250
SHOT FREQUENCY: 115 +16

Initial DMG when hit: 16

Peacemaker (TL 94):

DAMAGE: 150
AIMING: 221
SHOT FREQUENCY: 69 +9

Initial DMG when hit: 18

Vein Ripper (TL 97):

DAMAGE: 148
AIMING: 215
SHOT FREQUENCY: 95 +10

Initial DMG when hit: 24

Blade of Ceres (TL 100):

DAMAGE: 147
AIMING: 210
SHOT FREQUENCY: 64 +4

Initial DMG when hit: 25

Dentist (TL 104):

DAMAGE: 145
AIMING: 203
SHOT FREQUENCY: 127 +28

Initial DMG when hit: 15

Hurler King Knuckles (TL 108):

DAMAGE: 143
AIMING: 197
SHOT FREQUENCY: 126 +27

Initial DMG when hit: 15

Zsusun (TL 108):

DAMAGE: 143
AIMING: 197
SHOT FREQUENCY: 74 +8

Initial DMG when hit: 23

Paw of Bear (TL 113):

DAMAGE: 141
AIMING: 191
SHOT FREQUENCY:81 +6

Initial DMG when hit: 20

Thunderbolt (TL 110):

DAMAGE:142
AIMING: 249
SHOT FREQUENCY: 77 +17

Initial DMG when hit: 15

Devils Grace (TL115):

DAMAGE: 139
AIMING: 237
SHOT FREQUENCY: 78 +8

Initial DMG when hit: 20

Hell-demon
05-10-13, 21:25
Testes again on the aptly named Punching Bag. He has 50 in all resists. Here is the copy paste from my notes in word.

Paw of Tiger (TL 80):

DAMAGE: 160
AIMING: 250
SHOT FREQUENCY: 83 +8

46


Perforator (TL 82):

DAMAGE: 159
AIMING: 250
SHOT FREQUENCY: 115 +16

33


Peacemaker (TL 94):

DAMAGE: 150
AIMING: 221
SHOT FREQUENCY: 69 +9

61

Vein Ripper (TL 97):

DAMAGE: 148
AIMING: 215
SHOT FREQUENCY: 95 +10

44

Blade of Ceres (TL 100):

DAMAGE: 147
AIMING: 210
SHOT FREQUENCY: 64 +4

61

Dentist (TL 104):

DAMAGE: 145
AIMING: 203
SHOT FREQUENCY: 127 +28

35

Hurler King Knuckles (TL 108):

DAMAGE: 143
AIMING: 197
SHOT FREQUENCY: 126 +27

36

Zsusun (TL 108):

DAMAGE: 143
AIMING: 197
SHOT FREQUENCY: 74 +8

54

Paw of Bear (TL 113):

DAMAGE: 141
AIMING: 191
SHOT FREQUENCY:81 +6

49

Thunder bolt

34

Devils Grace
49

Bragi
05-10-13, 21:39
Exactly what I need! I'll set about deciphering this to see where we are.

Dear everyone, getting similar data from other weapon types would be great. If you can, include the top level non-rare (and epic if applicable) version with the rare version (so long as it's TL75+) so I can get an better idea of how the DPM curve is being affected by sub-skills.

Hell-demon
05-10-13, 21:54
Ya welcome. I will accept an mc5 on titan as a reward. Anything else I need to do?

Bragi
06-10-13, 00:17
With regards to that particular aspect, no; just more testing with other weapon types as mentioned above.

We do still need some more general testing on how the damage mod proportions are affecting PvP and specifically how force modded weapons are or are not affecting Spy and Psi-Monk characters (and how other ammo mods are affecting the other classes for that matter).
We would also like to see roughly how long it now takes for a player to kill another. Although NC has a fast-paced PvP atmosphere, dropping someone else in a matter of seconds does not make much fun for the looser. Intense but slightly longer duration fights in a similar vein to NC1, where several CS clips would be needed to drop a player rather than several bursts, would be better.

Hell-demon
06-10-13, 00:26
So you want me to kill?

Really hope the NSA doesn't misinterpret this...

Bragi
06-10-13, 00:39
Yes :p.

Though I mean that on a pure damage basis. Ie. one person shooting someone until they drop and timing it. Ideally with 'victims' set up as PvP characters but that have equal total resistances in all damage types. For the moment we are not interested in 'duel' results.

Hell-demon
06-10-13, 01:15
Yes :p.

Though I mean that on a pure damage basis. Ie. one person shooting someone until they drop and timing it. Ideally with 'victims' set up as PvP characters but that have equal total resistances in all damage types. For the moment we are not interested in 'duel' results.

Done. Brammers died by my hand. He did fight back after he felt me nipping at his back.

I started with Devils Grace. It did decent damage but against a WoC power armoured spy it's energy properties and xray were resisted. It did damage but when I switched to zsusun I did more damage. Most people are specced for energy so it's to be expected.

However, a factor with melee that needs to be taken into account is stamina. I had to pop a stam booster after a few swipes with the devils grace. Stamina drain on energy blades is high. Stamina on zsusun is quite low. Peacemaker is quite high. Knuckles drain fast too if I recall. Others are average. So I can swipe and swipe with some weapons but then slow to a crawl. Speed and distance closing is a huge factor for melee users.

Brammers died quite quickly. But he is a spy and has low con. Against a tank I may have been brawling longer and Brammers only managed to get a few shot in on me, but he was running away and only started fighting me once he got into jericho's fortress. He might have killed me...dunno need more "testing".

Melee could be promising in pvp with a few tweaks. Stamina needs to be addressed and possibly damage. 1 vesus 1 it seems fine. Large scale battles not so much. Also a melee will get fucked in a large outpost war because he has to run into groups that may be getting aoe atatcked.

Bragi
06-10-13, 01:19
Stamina use by melee is probably going to be one of the first changes seen that directly affects one class. It's been on our radar since the beginning, so it should pop up soon™.

Hell-demon
06-10-13, 01:24
Stamina use by melee is probably going to be one of the first changes seen that directly affects one class. It's been on our radar since the beginning, so it should pop up soon™.

Are the ath malus on power armour going to be addressed? :angel:


please please please.

Also, Santa, make Vein Ripper a bit sharper....

Agent L
06-10-13, 10:00
Reverse loms are great, maybe you could do a drug with +200 to imp,cst,res,rec,rep drug? That'd solve the problem of tradeskillers.


So you want me to kill?

Really hope the NSA doesn't misinterpret this...I'm making a char named President : )

Hell-demon
06-10-13, 11:19
More testing done. By testing I do mean assaulting a randomer in ceres.

Against a PE (I assume) with psi spells, regant armour and a energy weapon, things were a bit trickier. Devils grace did okay but again I had to pop a stamina booster. Zsusun was good but just wasn't doing enough damage. In fact a lot of my melee weapons were actually quite bad.

So I'm doing the pvp dance of neocron and aiming is a serious issue due to the nature of melee. The PE could move out of my lock with ease and I had to move up close and each time he moved I missed. All the while he could dictate range and deal damage while meandering out of my way. I used 3rd person perspective but it was tricky getting my hits to register. My hits that did register were round 30 ish in damage but were out healed soon enough. 1st fight I dealt damage but again he was unaware. 2nd was stalemated and he shot my legs so I did slow down but the one edge using melee has is I don't use ammo and the PE soon ran out of bullets.

3rd fight was pepper park and I felt the crappyness.

Stamina and damage are an issue. The damage on melee is poor especially when you consider the high level of skill points and subskill points involved. With nearly 242 in melee over 100 in agility and max weapon lore on a tank, as well as a couple of points in endurance; I'm doing quite shit.

Also this is using high end melee rares, and high end imps as well as woc armour. All these things require lots of money and time, which all creates a sub par char when you get the stuff. And at the same time you need the best stuff just to remotely compete. I'm using night shade and stuff that wont be readily available for titan players.

Doesn't help that the woc armour was cutting into my ath which slowed me a bit, especially as speed and manoeuvrability are key for melee tanks.

Melee needs a boost to speed, damage, decrease degradation, decrease stamina drain and the skill points needs to give more of a boost. Potential for improving melee is there but we also must factor in the Private Eye. A melee PE (will and still does) suck at melee but there is potential. Problem is getting to the high tier weapons for him. Implants, armour and some weapons need a rethink for the Private Eye, in terms of melee.

Teal`c
06-10-13, 12:36
Better rework the freezer weapons instead of raising the runspeed.

Torg
07-10-13, 11:35
unrelated to melee: i'm happy to read about removing all woc-, tc,- epic boni from weapons, but find it disturbing to get exactly half the damage on the very same weapon in PvE. i know, its balancing in progress, and i'm perfectly sure this is the right way to go.

Cursed Shadow
07-10-13, 11:41
More testing done. By testing I do mean assaulting a randomer in ceres.

Doesn't help that the woc armour was cutting into my ath which slowed me a bit, especially as speed and manoeuvrability are key for melee tanks.

Melee needs a boost to speed, damage, decrease degradation, decrease stamina drain and the skill points needs to give more of a boost. Potential for improving melee is there but we also must factor in the Private Eye. A melee PE (will and still does) suck at melee but there is potential. Problem is getting to the high tier weapons for him. Implants, armour and some weapons need a rethink for the Private Eye, in terms of melee.

ATH also factors into damage for Melee:

Lowtech Melee Combat:
Damage (100): Base 10 %, M-C 60 %, WEP 10 %, ATL 20 %
Frequency (100): Base 10 %, M-C 30 %, WEP 40 %, END 20 %
Handling (100): Base 10 %, M-C 20 %, WEP 40 %, AGL 30 %

Hightech Melee Combat:
Damage (100): Base 10 %, M-C 60 %, WEP 10 %, ATL 20 %
Frequency (100): Base 20 %, M-C 20 %, WEP 20 %, T-C 20 %, END 20 %
Handling (110): Base 20 %, M-C 20 %, WEP 20 %, T-C 20 %, AGL 30 %

nabbl
07-10-13, 13:48
unrelated to melee: i'm happy to read about removing all woc-, tc,- epic boni from weapons, but find it disturbing to get exactly half the damage on the very same weapon in PvE. i know, its balancing in progress, and i'm perfectly sure this is the right way to go.

I think they completely rebalanced DPM, so it is not only that they removed the boni from weapons. This could lead to having "exactly half the damage". Besides... I always had the feeling to do too much damage. In PVE and PVP. I mean a Grim Chaser dropped down in seconds with a Creed.
Be careful with the modifications though. They did something to the ammunition mods. Energy seems to be more like secondary damage now which could be bad for hunting mobs (e.g. Warbots since they got fire and force resist)

Another thing which I got told by a member of my clan and which I can confirm via my own tests:

A TL84 Tangent Plasma Cannon seems to do a bit more damage than the Cursed Sould for example. That could be due to the fact that you have better damage percentages on the TPC rather than the Cursed Soul. Of course the TPC was artifact, and I don't think that you are able to do that on the retail client but nevertheless the new DPM Curve seems to be a bit too flat regarding Techlevel.
Can anyone confirm this?

Cursed Shadow
07-10-13, 16:39
Sounds intriguing nabbl.

Although this benefits the Low TL Rares, you're right on the fact that Tanks should not be able to use a lower TL weapon and get more out of it than a rare equivalent.

I'll get on the Test Server and try this tonight...

Bragi
07-10-13, 17:55
It's certainly looking like the top end DPM/TL scaling is too shallow.

As for PvE, yes, the damage proportions for ammo mods were significantly altered. The alternate damage type now consists 75% of the damage, rather than the ~10% previously. However, ammo mods no longer have an inherent total damage bonus, so you don't have to mod a weapon if you don't need to. Have fun finding out what works best on your favourite hunting targets!

Agent L
08-10-13, 08:59
[...] decrease degradation[...]How many slot weapon you were using? The difference between 1 and 5 slotter on melee was huge last time I checked.

Of course the TPC was artifact, and I don't think that you are able to do that on the retail client5 slot, ultimated and no ammo mod = all arti.
And I was wondering why suddenly ppl ask me if I have TPCs in stock... : )


As for PvE [...]I think many of the current retail problems with PvE is the "armor breaking" phenomenon. Using fire vs xray modded weapon on WB does actually make a difference. But who cares, after few shots mob's armor is broken, it's resists lie flat and it doesn't matter what dmg you deal anymore.
Disclaimer1: the initial diff on WB is not big enough either
Disclaimer2: I am not sure if mobs armor "break" in the same way player armor does, it's just most reasonable explanation I could come up with.

Cursed Shadow
08-10-13, 10:40
I'm pretty sure that 'armour breaks' only occur for the damage type which was used to break down that armour in the first place.

Hence why most people use Energy in Regants. Everyone is then contributing to breaking down the same armour, to maximize their Energy damage output.

Brawl
08-10-13, 11:56
Righto talking with some other fellow regulators although some or most of us arent playing nc alot of late busy with RL and other shit, we're coing to do some testing very soon!

Can we not get a bit more direction from you team more specifically what to test, how to present the data, what builds to use etc?

It might just be me but im looking through the data kindly gathered as far and its (no offenece intended) a mess! all kinds of different builds people using buffs, heals, armor of all different types most people testing the same shit.

Lets get organised on this and make the job easier and smoother and get it done?

Cursed Shadow
08-10-13, 12:53
Righto talking with some other fellow regulators although some or most of us arent playing nc alot of late busy with RL and other shit, we're coing to do some testing very soon!

Can we not get a bit more direction from you team more specifically what to test, how to present the data, what builds to use etc?

It might just be me but im looking through the data kindly gathered as far and its (no offenece intended) a mess! all kinds of different builds people using buffs, heals, armor of all different types most people testing the same shit.

Lets get organised on this and make the job easier and smoother and get it done?

I completely resound his comments.

It would be good if GMs can provide a batch of test data, and in response we provide damage logs for the given scenario.

If any unusual behaviour occurs, we can document it separately. Surely this should mostly be about DPM/TL and raw damage figures versus a certain build with balanced resists/extreme resists/no resists.

Example of extreme resists:

Person to be hit: Tank with Full Con split between Fire and Poison. Full Kevlar armor set.
To be hit with: War Gas modded Devourer, F24.88, Cleansing Flame Thrower, using War Gas, Napalm and Standard ammunition.
Person to deal damage: Gentank, should use X imps, X PA and have a total of 252 H-C points and 89 Weapon Lore.
No drugs should be used during the test.

We should have an area, or link where scenarios can be raised, with damage logs attached to those scenarios. (and I don't think the forum is the appropriate place for that)

Please let me know if my logic is flawed here....

Brawl
08-10-13, 14:18
I completely resound his comments.

It would be good if GMs can provide a batch of test data, and in response we provide damage logs for the given scenario.

If any unusual behaviour occurs, we can document it separately. Surely this should mostly be about DPM/TL and raw damage figures versus a certain build with balanced resists/extreme resists/no resists.

Example of extreme resists:

Person to be hit: Tank with Full Con split between Fire and Poison. Full Kevlar armor set.
To be hit with: War Gas modded Devourer, F24.88, Cleansing Flame Thrower, using War Gas, Napalm and Standard ammunition.
Person to deal damage: Gentank, should use X imps, X PA and have a total of 252 H-C points and 89 Weapon Lore.
No drugs should be used during the test.

We should have an area, or link where scenarios can be raised, with damage logs attached to those scenarios. (and I don't think the forum is the appropriate place for that)

Please let me know if my logic is flawed here....

^
This, im glad it isnt just me that thought we need more of a structured approach to testing.. as far i havent bothered because it is unclear to me exactly what data and in what circumstances is required.

Doc Holliday
08-10-13, 14:58
Hence why most people use Energy in Regants. Everyone is then contributing to breaking down the same armour, to maximize their Energy damage output.


I truly have no idea what it is your trying to say with this post despite having followed the thread to this point.

However i felt compelled to post but personally speaking, wearing energy armour in regants? First of all are we talking about the PA run or Regants legacy. If its the PA run it makes more sense. If its RL then surely the only reason to do that is because of potential pkers going in and cleaning house on a levelling team......

If im mistaken on this or there is some amazing hidden reason as to why this is different please post up because this sort of thing is important if the balance is to be fixed.

Cursed Shadow
08-10-13, 15:00
Although we now have Sparta, we don't have a sufficient platform for raising feedback with an attached damage log. (which is centralized)
Neither has any particular guidance on how to conduct testing been provided (DO and DO NOT).

For example, duels/real fights are pointless at the moment on Sparta.
The best kind of test would be against a 'dummy' player that meets a certain specification for the given scenario to capture the damage data.
Alternatively, I presume, would be on entirely naked runners with no con points spent whatsoever.

Can we have a bunch of different monsters laid out which have different resistances, huge amounts of health, and don't fight back in a certain 'test' sector. So that we can test the TL/DPM relationship and the new 'Ammo Mods' without having to Multibox.


I summarise the current 'Things to Test' below:

http://forum.neocron-game.com/showthread.php?153520-Sparta-Deployment-1-Change-Log

1. Weapon DPM (Damage Per Minute) rework based on Tech Level (TL) and removal of all WOC, Rare, Epic, Burst and High-tech bonuses

How do we test this?
Ideally we would like people to see if increasing TL gives rise to a smooth increase in DPM. Testing between the same class would be best and with similar sub-skill levels.

2. Standardisation of clip and ammo pack size, increase in the proportion of secondary damage types for modded weapons (75%) and removal of bonus damage for weapon mods

How do we test this?
Is the proportion too high? Is the impact on Psi-monks and Spies as bad as assumed or even worse? These two classes have to deal with the current piercing based weapons and are generally quite strong against energy based weapons. Energy using players would have a means to deal with those classes, while the piercing using players would have their advantage cut down.

Cursed Shadow
08-10-13, 15:05
I truly have no idea what it is your trying to say with this post despite having followed the thread to this point.

However i felt compelled to post but personally speaking, wearing energy armour in regants? First of all are we talking about the PA run or Regants legacy. If its the PA run it makes more sense. If its RL then surely the only reason to do that is because of potential pkers going in and cleaning house on a levelling team......

If im mistaken on this or there is some amazing hidden reason as to why this is different please post up because this sort of thing is important if the balance is to be fixed.

I meant most people use Energy Modded weapons to break through the Energy 'Armor' of Regants monsters. That is why Energy is commonplace there.

I was simply trying to point this out in order to correct Agent L who seemed to think 'armor breaking' was a general thing which once broken made all damage (regardless of type) higher, whereas there are different 'armor breaks' possible per resistance type: Energy, Fire, Poison, Xray, Force, Piercing.

Based on this, if I break the Regant's boss armor using a TT Epic which is High Voltage modded, it will not improve the damage of an AK against that monster, instead the Piercing resistance of the monster would need to be reduced.

RogerRamjet
08-10-13, 16:03
At this stage surely damage needs to be calculated against a model that has no resists (or maximum resists?) or armour (or full armour?) if we're getting a basic tl/damage curve correct. Without knowing what resist value gives a certain percentage of resists for that particular damage type noting what damage is done is surely pointless?

You'd then be able to test specific damage curves of each weapon against particular levels of resists. There seems to me that there has to be 2 curves (or a line) at play here; one for weapon tl damage, and one of individual weapon damage vs resists. But weapon cap values and resist cap values need to be known.

Cursed Shadow
08-10-13, 16:07
It is *still* impossible to cap weapons.

Hence why they need to dictate setups for testing

RogerRamjet
08-10-13, 16:09
Hnnnnggg bring back weapon caps.

Is that why Tangent Plasma Cannons are out damaging Cursed Souls?

Cursed Shadow
08-10-13, 16:20
That coupled with the fact that the DPM/TL curve flattens out too early.

Bragi
08-10-13, 17:03
It doesn't necessarily matter at this stage what you are shooting, so long as it has equal resist values (and ideally no armour) and you use the same target for all the weapons you are testing.
It also doesn't matter if one group of people use something/someone with one set of resists and another uses a target with different ones.

All we are currently interested in right at this moment is the DPM/TL relationship. When it comes to reworking armour, then we will start to specify values.


Hnnnnggg bring back weapon caps.

Is that why Tangent Plasma Cannons are out damaging Cursed Souls?

We did maths. Our maths were wrong. We will do new maths.

Essentially, the DPM scaling was flatter than the sub-skill effects. Lower TL items are getting a higher DPM increase due to sub-skills than a higher TL weapon gets from being a higher TL.

Cursed Shadow
08-10-13, 17:49
We did maths. Our maths were wrong. We will do new maths.

Essentially, the DPM scaling was flatter than the sub-skill effects. Lower TL items are getting a higher DPM increase due to sub-skills than a higher TL weapon gets from being a higher TL.

I completely understand the intent, and I imagine it currently makes PE very fun to play, but rares do need to have a touch more DPS than non-rares.

Or at least rares should do slightly more damage than a non-rare with the same points spent. (This should be a small amount)

As such perhaps you need to have a line deviation for rares and non-rares. Not sure though.
I think simple quest pickups like BHG should not be doing as much damage as a similar TL rare.

When will this part be patched, so that the testing can commence in the right direction?

jj dynomite
08-10-13, 21:05
It doesn't necessarily matter at this stage what you are shooting, so long as it has equal resist values (and ideally no armour) and you use the same target for all the weapons you are testing.
It also doesn't matter if one group of people use something/someone with one set of resists and another uses a target with different ones.


When we do this testing do we need to post results, or are you logging this server side?

Bragi
08-10-13, 21:51
I completely understand the intent, and I imagine it currently makes PE very fun to play, but rares do need to have a touch more DPS than non-rares.
Indeed. Though rares will not do more due to being rares, but because they have a higher TL. A new DPM/TL relationship is being worked on.


When we do this testing do we need to post results, or are you logging this server side?
Post them here.

We are currently exploring the possibility of a special test NPC.

William Antrim
08-10-13, 22:06
Ok thats fine. Easily tested. I will design a format for us to use Brawl. It will be easy as long as we just use two constants. The attacker and defender I mean.

If it is a ratio they want then thats easy to get.

We need to change resists possibly (50-75-100) base energy

Damage subskill (100-150-200) Pistol combat, Rifle combat and Heavy combat.

then we just record the numbers of damage that we get at each value with each combination. Provided the victim is at full health all the way through we will end up with a slab of data they can analyse.


This ought to make things easier to understand and follow.

Bragi do you want excel spreadsheets submitting or posts on here? It would be easier to forward it on a spreadsheet tbh.

Bragi
08-10-13, 22:31
If it is a ratio they want then thats easy to get.
Yes, sorry, that's what we're after (you know what it's like when you forget a word :p).


Bragi do you want excel spreadsheets submitting or posts on here? It would be easier to forward it on a spreadsheet tbh.
I really don't mind. Which ever is easiest.

DER_julu
08-10-13, 23:05
Ok thats fine. Easily tested. I will design a format for us to use Brawl. It will be easy as long as we just use two constants. The attacker and defender I mean.

If it is a ratio they want then thats easy to get.

We need to change resists possibly (50-75-100) base energy

Damage subskill (100-150-200) Pistol combat, Rifle combat and Heavy combat.

then we just record the numbers of damage that we get at each value with each combination. Provided the victim is at full health all the way through we will end up with a slab of data they can analyse.


This ought to make things easier to understand and follow.

Bragi do you want excel spreadsheets submitting or posts on here? It would be easier to forward it on a spreadsheet tbh.

send me those too, please

Doc Holliday
09-10-13, 04:34
I meant most people use Energy Modded weapons to break through the Energy 'Armor' of Regants monsters. That is why Energy is commonplace there.

I was simply trying to point this out in order to correct Agent L who seemed to think 'armor breaking' was a general thing which once broken made all damage (regardless of type) higher, whereas there are different 'armor breaks' possible per resistance type: Energy, Fire, Poison, Xray, Force, Piercing.

Based on this, if I break the Regant's boss armor using a TT Epic which is High Voltage modded, it will not improve the damage of an AK against that monster, instead the Piercing resistance of the monster would need to be reduced.


Right. Thats been in existence since 2.something because the sluggers etc are highly resistant to fire damage. This is evident by the small ticks on the boss aoe.

and i thought i was missing something.

Im going back in to my cave now.

DER_julu
09-10-13, 14:32
while testing, i noticed that modding on the desperado seems to be broken - regardless of ammotype, it ALWAYS does PRC-damage... (see zip);

2nd edit: there IS an issue. ammo-fx only change after a relog or when switching weapons. if i reload my rifle with a different ammo-type, and shoot it right away, the correct info shows up in the info-view, the damage-logs state otherwise, though...

DER_julu
09-10-13, 15:29
ok, after a bit of testing, i zipped the various logfiles for you folks to download.

tested damageprogression on a PE with various assault-rifles, laserrifles, pulselasers and rayguns with and without ammomods.
PE was a quickly built high-tl-build, the testdummy was a capped tank (75 in all resists, no implants, no armor);

all files should be here...
assault rifles (http://textilzeitung.at/fileadmin/downloads/logs_assault.zip)
laserrifles (http://textilzeitung.at/fileadmin/downloads/logs_laserrifle.zip)
pulselasers (http://textilzeitung.at/fileadmin/downloads/logs_pulselaser.zip)
rayguns (http://textilzeitung.at/fileadmin/downloads/logs_rayguns.zip)
PE character sheet (http://textilzeitung.at/fileadmin/downloads/spartakus_lipvig_1.exl)

hope that helps...

Cursed Shadow
09-10-13, 15:50
Rayguns throws a 404

Should be: Rayguns (http://textilzeitung.at/fileadmin/downloads/logs_raygun.zip)

Bragi
09-10-13, 16:55
2nd edit: there IS an issue. ammo-fx only change after a relog or when switching weapons. if i reload my rifle with a different ammo-type, and shoot it right away, the correct info shows up in the info-view, the damage-logs state otherwise, though...

Does this 'fix' the desperado or does it still continue to do pure piercing?

DER_julu
09-10-13, 17:08
switching weapons or relogging fixes it, until you load a new type of ammo. then you're stuck with the last one, until you relogg or switch weapon...

Brawl
09-10-13, 22:11
I starting collecting data on all pistols, to do this im using my spy as damage dealer. I have set him up to run 200 pc, 150 wep, and 100 tc. Shooting at my tank from full hp no armor and 75 resists to all, taking 1 click to the head only i.e single shot or burst depending on the weapon im using.

Now...

Im trying to calculate DPM few questions regarding this...

For single shot weapons is it as easy as taking the average damage output and multiplyinhg that value by the total shot/min value in the 'show info' on said weapon? i.e 75/min (+26)

for example wyatt earp dealing 74 damage per shot average, multiply that by info screen display of shot/min which is 85 (+31)...
74*116=8584 DPM ??

Thats assuming the figures on 'show info' are correct? or am i totally wrong?

Also asuming i may be right for weapons like smg and gatling pistols which fire 4 shots per click do i divide the damage output for that burst by 4 to get average damage per bullet and use same math to calculate DPM? or im i totally messed up here haha?

Im no mathematician and this is hurting my brain help me please, idealy going to plot of graph of results if i can get some semi accreate figures.

Bragi
09-10-13, 22:39
Also asuming i may be right for weapons like smg and gatling pistols which fire 4 shots per click do i divide the damage output for that burst by 4 to get average damage per bullet and use same math to calculate DPM? or im i totally messed up here haha?
No, that sounds about right. Just make sure that you record figures when all shots in a burst hit.

However, remember that reloading time will decrease a weapon's DPM. A weapon with an rpm of 120 may fire two rounds per second within the clip duration, but will not fire 120 rounds per minute.


Im no mathematician and this is hurting my brain help me please, idealy going to plot of graph of results if i can get some semi accreate figures.
A graph may be of use. The DPM values you have calculated are not the base values we are working with due to sub-skill effects and reloading time, but the curve you get may provide some insight into how the weapons are performing.

I should point out also, that the clip and ammo pack size changes we meant to implement do not seem to have made it to Sparta (we are trying to find out why). Generally these are not an issue (and are irrelevant when looking at per hit damage values), but they may skew DPM.

Brawl
09-10-13, 23:04
No, that sounds about right. Just make sure that you record figures when all shots in a burst hit.

However, remember that reloading time will decrease a weapon's DPM. A weapon with an rpm of 120 may fire two rounds per second within the clip duration, but will not fire 120 rounds per minute.


A graph may be of use. The DPM values you have calculated are not the base values we are working with due to sub-skill effects and reloading time, but the curve you get may provide some insight into how the weapons are performing.

I should point out also, that the clip and ammo pack size changes we meant to implement do not seem to have made it to Sparta (we are trying to find out why). Generally these are not an issue (and are irrelevant when looking at per hit damage values), but they may skew DPM.

Ok i was hoping that reload time was accounted for in the shot/min, ok that sucks. I have recorded all damage from bursts but weapons like plasma pistols have a wierd range of damage and i can only go on a average with is a little vague.

I have noticed however looking at data collected so far that single shot weapons of similar type are scaling quite nicely, and also the xbow is hitting like a steam train compared to weapons of same TL range. Like 246 damage with a shot freq 84/min making it over 20k per min minus the reload. Bit saucey!

I'll crack on you given me some things to think about thanks.

Bragi
10-10-13, 00:19
I have noticed however looking at data collected so far that single shot weapons of similar type are scaling quite nicely, and also the xbow is hitting like a steam train compared to weapons of same TL range. Like 246 damage with a shot freq 84/min making it over 20k per min minus the reload. Bit saucey!
The clip size of the xbow was meant to be reduced significantly. As the clip size changes have not made it to Sparta, the xbow is currently doing a DPM much higher than intended.

DER_julu
10-10-13, 07:21
so. what's the ideal method of testing ?
should i rather calculate the DPM, work with the damage logs, i'm pretty unsure how to proceed (don't wanna waste anybodies time with damage logs if they make no sense :) );

Doc Holliday
10-10-13, 09:00
KISS.

KEEP IT SIMPLE STUPID.


Record individual damage numbers scored with what ever weapons. Include raw resist numbers for defender and attackers subskill attributes.

Raw data is better than trying to create your own templates which may or may not work well. Thats what i would do.

ps. Hi :) (I miss you :D)

DER_julu
10-10-13, 09:46
KISS.
i warn you, my beard will scratch your aussie-sunburnt face...



Record individual damage numbers scored with what ever weapons. Include raw resist numbers for defender and attackers subskill attributes.

Raw data is better than trying to create your own templates which may or may not work well. Thats what i would do.
thus the damagelogs... ;)

Assimilator
11-10-13, 04:59
KISS.

KEEP IT SIMPLE STUPID.


Nice to see someone applying some lean principles to the project :D

Divide
11-10-13, 20:12
Can we get some Black Belts up in here?

William Antrim
12-10-13, 00:22
Brawl if youre testing by yourself then stick with single shot weapons on 2 clients (less discrepancy for mistakes).

If you want to test rapid fire weapons then ANSWER your PHONE!!! I am available next week during the day if we still gonna do that.

In terms of recording results I have literally put together 2 lists of stats.

One for the attacker (PC/RC WPL TC) one for the defender (RESISTS).

Then I have put down the weapon and total damage done (RED NUMBERS coming off the target)

I cant be arsed with working out graphs and all of that. I am not that way inclined. It makes face 'urt. I would rather provide the raw data and butt loads of it and let someone else (more qualified) work out what it means.

One question? Does TC affect damage any more? I hope not!

Second question? Do you have a log of who has tested what? I mean I can already see a lot of reports coming in from different people testing but do you have a roster or something and are you short of anything specifically? Like if lots of people are testing pistols perhaps I should do cannons etc?

Cheers.

William Antrim
12-10-13, 07:16
P.s all the talk in DEV #1 is guns - are we testing melee and those thin-looking gangly kids yet? The ginger step children that you guys probably call APU Monks?

L0KI
12-10-13, 11:07
If you want to test rapid fire weapons then ANSWER your PHONE!!! I am available next week during the day if we still gonna do that.


I can join you daytime next week. Send me a text message or something mate; still on the same number.

Except Thursday, as I'm moving house :)

L0KI
12-10-13, 11:16
Any chance of getting the reverse LOM vendors stocked up?

I want to switch back to pistol on my main to test that extensively, but the LOMs have crippled my DEX.

DER_julu
12-10-13, 12:48
hop into the ceres-temple, take the mission from the tank in the camo-pa, and you're good...

Baldur
12-10-13, 12:59
Loki, click the altar in neoconstruct for a free warp to the ceres temple and talk to "SUPER HARD MISSION GUY".
Kill the rat (6/6) he spawns --> BING ;)

Bragi
12-10-13, 18:03
P.s all the talk in DEV #1 is guns - are we testing melee and those thin-looking gangly kids yet? The ginger step children that you guys probably call APU Monks?
All non-DoT direct damage weapons except drones.

Ascension
13-10-13, 10:42
P.s all the talk in DEV #1 is guns - are we testing melee and those thin-looking gangly kids yet? The ginger step children that you guys probably call APU Monks?

this, considering the APU is the most broken class right now.

Deus Ex Machina
13-10-13, 20:13
No damage numbers from me yet, but one feedback:

With the current deployment of the balancing, the newbie experience is really nice. I don't know if a XP boost is in play, but the time to reach the first two levels is good (TG char).
But especially the damage you do makes you feel like you have quite an impact, and also you really TAKE damage. Not enough to be very dangerous, but enough to get used to it and not ignore it.


Got a question too:

At the moment there are Ammo Mods (High Frequency Raygun, High Voltage Laser, ...?) that get useless if the current system is used, since they added energy damage in the old system, and so are now no different than standard ammunition. I guess they would be changed if you decide to stay with your current plan for Ammo Mods? (Falling in the category of completly different Ammo Mods you need to complete this change like you stated?)

mdares
13-10-13, 21:05
Can we get some Black Belts up in here?

OMG It's DIVIDE!!!1111

^_^

So... still playing that WoW thing? =p

Bragi
14-10-13, 17:01
At the moment there are Ammo Mods (High Frequency Raygun, High Voltage Laser, ...?) that get useless if the current system is used, since they added energy damage in the old system, and so are now no different than standard ammunition. I guess they would be changed if you decide to stay with your current plan for Ammo Mods? (Falling in the category of completly different Ammo Mods you need to complete this change like you stated?)
To give the different energy weapons some distinction other than looking different, the base damage was altered slightly.
Laser weapons do energy (75%) and fire (25%) damage as standard, as they burnt he target, high voltage does pure energy.
Raygun weapons do energy (75%) and xray (25%) damage as standard, as they are particle beams, high frequency does pure energy.
Fusion weapons do energy (60%) and force (40%) damage as standard, as they explode on impact, alpha does energy (80%) and force (20%).
Plasma weapons do pure energy as standard.

Check the ammo pack info to see what damage they do and the proportions.

Deus Ex Machina
14-10-13, 21:40
To give the different energy weapons some distinction other than looking different, the base damage was altered slightly.
Laser weapons do energy (75%) and fire (25%) damage as standard, as they burnt he target, high voltage does pure energy.
Raygun weapons do energy (75%) and xray (25%) damage as standard, as they are particle beams, high frequency does pure energy.
Fusion weapons do energy (60%) and force (40%) damage as standard, as they explode on impact, alpha does energy (80%) and force (20%).
Plasma weapons do pure energy as standard.

Check the ammo pack info to see what damage they do and the proportions.

Huh, I saw it with the fusion weapons (nad liked it), but not with Laser and Raygun... Must have overseen it.

There is a bug with the Raygun Cannon Quantum Ammo - It has the same percentages (at least in the description) as the standard Raygun Cannon Ammo (25% Xray, 75% Energy). It should be 75% Xray and 25% Energy like with the other Raygun Quantum Ammos (Pistol and Rifle)

Cursed Shadow
15-10-13, 13:35
Are you testing the APU on Sparta?
For someone so adamant to see the class fixed, I'd expect you to provide some serious contributions to the matter.

Dropout
15-10-13, 19:09
Uhm.. We ARE getting our skills (setups) reset on live server, when this hits, right?
With these kind of huge changes to ammo mods and such, every setup will have to be remade pretty much..

RogerRamjet
15-10-13, 19:35
Uhm.. We ARE getting our skills (setups) reset on live server, when this hits, right?
With these kind of huge changes to ammo mods and such, every setup will have to be remade pretty much..

I wouldn't be surprised if there were changes to various implants as well, we'll just have to wait and see.

Dropout
15-10-13, 19:51
I wouldn't be surprised if there were changes to various implants as well, we'll just have to wait and see.

Hopefully yeah.

Maybe that will get no-PA PE's a bit closer to being viable.. :p

RogerRamjet
15-10-13, 20:41
It's easier to make list of viable classes than unviable ;)

Bragi
15-10-13, 21:10
I wouldn't be surprised if there were changes to various implants as well, we'll just have to wait and see.
Given that we mentioned in the Deployment #1 Changelog that the DPM rework would not promote lower TL weapons without changes to the implant and armour system, it's pretty much a given ;).

Doc Holliday
16-10-13, 04:50
Hopefully yeah.

Maybe that will get no-PA PE's a bit closer to being viable.. :p

and my finger will get a bit closer to the play button.

Dropout
17-10-13, 02:33
and my finger will get a bit closer to the play button.

Same, I doubt I'll return unless they are made viable Again..
Such a petty reason for not playing, but meh..

Ascension
20-11-13, 09:45
Things have fallen quiet round these parts.

Petalustig
25-11-13, 11:15
when you will fix the apu spells or the mc tank weapons?

Jipz
25-11-13, 23:21
one day...

Jipz
29-11-13, 23:18
so no news? nada?rien?

Divide
30-11-13, 00:06
read the 2.x status update that has been posted for nearly a month

Jipz
10-12-13, 16:21
So?
Any news would be welcome since its been a while we heard from dev team

Trivaldi
10-12-13, 16:33
A Development Update with some information regarding the Balance Project will be with you prior to Christmas.

jj dynomite
11-12-13, 01:17
A Development Update with some information regarding the Balance Project will be with you prior to Christmas.

Wonderful! Thank you Trivaldi!

Castr0
15-12-13, 12:23
I tried the test server and I went hunting as I do on Vedeena and it's wierd.
I don't know if it's a will but with the exact same setup, I was doing half the damage with my weapon (SWAT rifle) on doomie and grims (I was using xray bullet).
I didn't try PvP yet.
Are all weapon weakier ?

Massaker
15-12-13, 13:27
I tried the test server and I went hunting as I do on Vedeena and it's wierd.
I don't know if it's a will but with the exact same setup, I was doing half the damage with my weapon (SWAT rifle) on doomie and grims (I was using xray bullet).
I didn't try PvP yet.
Are all weapon weakier ?

Yes they are. The rare weapon bonus and woc weapon bonus was removed and the damage is adjusted to the techlevel of your weapon. I think the dev's wrote it at this post: http://forum.neocron-game.com/showthread.php?153520-Sparta-Deployment-1-Change-Log

Castr0
15-12-13, 14:35
Weakier I understand, but going from 90 dmg per hit to 56 seems a lot to me.
If higher TL weapons do more damag, then spyocron and tankocron will keep on since these 2 classes always get high dext/str when PEs needs drugs, PAs and multiple MC5 to get enough dexterity.
PEs need love.
I'll give a try hunting on my tank and my spy to see the changes.

aKe`cj
15-12-13, 14:49
Weakier I understand, but going from 90 dmg per hit to 56 seems a lot to me.
If higher TL weapons do more damag, then spyocron and tankocron will keep on since these 2 classes always get high dext/str when PEs needs drugs, PAs and multiple MC5 to get enough dexterity.
PEs need love.
I'll give a try hunting on my tank and my spy to see the changes.

I would think that testing PvE is a bit of a waste at this stage. Haven't they said that they will only look at PvP for now and ignore the PvE impact / adjust PvE balance later?

Dropout
15-12-13, 14:50
Weakier I understand, but going from 90 dmg per hit to 56 seems a lot to me.
If higher TL weapons do more damag, then spyocron and tankocron will keep on since these 2 classes always get high dext/str when PEs needs drugs, PAs and multiple MC5 to get enough dexterity.
PEs need love.
I'll give a try hunting on my tank and my spy to see the changes.

I think the WoC/rare bonusses has been removed to make non-rares more viable, which in most cases will make PE's stronger.
From my understanding anyways.

That and the TL differences in damage has been lowered (I think?).

Castr0
15-12-13, 15:16
I tried hunting on tank and weapons seems to be nerfed the same way, Ravager does also nearly half the damages as before.
Hunting will be longer than before, maybe it's a good thing.

Castr0
15-12-13, 16:46
aKe'cj & Dropout you are right.
I'll have to try PvP now !

ncelite
04-02-14, 14:13
[Edited]

Hackebeil
16-02-14, 05:06
What consequences might there be?
Some weapon mods will clearly be more valuable. The current armour system will make Psi-monk and some Spy players significantly more vulnerable to force modded weapons. Without a change to the armour system, the possible introduction of a damage type weakness to each class and balancing the viability of each class to team play this will remain evident.

Bring back APU lol !