View Full Version : rebuilding the PvE experience
http://i.imgur.com/wT8myEy.jpg
as a long-timer NC player i witnessed a lot of changes in the PvE part of the game (and so did many of us). today, as we all would probably agree, the situation is not satisfying. there are mobs seemingly in the wrong places, for no known reason, limiting PvE to a small part of the map and a few crowded places. so here's my proposal:
remove all doy- (except doy guards in the north), york- and y-mobs from the map surface and move them to caves (storages, mines etc), and add a few midrange caves (storages, mines etc) to the southern, "green" zone.
map explanation: the grasslands (green) in the very south and the swamps (green zone) dont spawn mobs beyond rank 52 (cyclops). a zone for beginners. the very north (yellow) is a midrange area (warbots and spiderbots), the east (orange) upper midrange region with fire mobs and steppes reptiles, while the mountains (red) around Tech Haven have those pesky hoverbots.
this is pretty much a NC1 setup.
high-level (and team) hunting used to take place in caves (chaos caves, crystal cabe, swamp caves, el farid, regants, ceres storages, etc) - i dotted that in light blue. additional caves (storages, mines etc) with doy- york-, y-mobs would greatly aid the fun of PvE - given there's appropriate loot to have (tech parts, trophys, weapons and equipment). adding some midrange caves (storages, mines etc) with 50-70ish mobs wolud id levelling up for lower mid chars. these additional caves would easily fit into all thos lost dwellings in the wastelands (like old greycore, calida, tawkeen) - i added a few light purple dots to illustrate that.
expected results: exploring the land would be less of a hazard, areas would be easier to understand. players would be able to spread out, or go in teams for new loot items.
expected dev workload: low, as removing mobs as well as setting up caves/storages/mines is easily done.
please discuss.
The following is my personal opinion.
In my mind, tougher and higher level mobs should be found in more areas of the Wasteland. Implementation should be done in such a way that travelling is still possible for low and mid level characters though. You should be able to fairly safely traverse the roads to reach your destination but venturing off those beaten tracks could get you eaten by a bigger nasty. Local factions should protect the roads nearest their home, giving a justification for the roads remaining safe. This would allow new characters to get around where they need to go but also prevent them just sidling up to the home's of their enemies. It would also make life far more interesting. Having to think about travel rather than point in a direction and hold down W.
The Wastelands should be interesting and accessible for low and mid level characters but more areas must also be useful/fun/interesting for high level and capped characters. Most of the Wasteland remains under utilised a lot of the time due to the established levelling tracks used by players and the lack of stuff to do by those at the end of those tracks.
We need to spice up both sides of that coin.
The Wastelands should be interesting and accessible for low and mid level characters There is absolutely no reason why Wastelands should be accessible to low lvl characters.
The Wastelands are supposed to be a dangerous place. People that are not tough enough to live out there are gathering in the city.
CM, TG and FA are faction for advanced players, deprived of that protection.
Hell, even in the real, friendly world 99% of us would die outside of cities and settlements, without support from other humans.
RP-wise, let me remind you about deadly radiation the Dome and NC's shield was built against. IMHO Players could even receive constant DoT while in wastes, so chars of weaker posture would die just because of it while trying to limp to the nearest shelter.
Besides that, leveling is so fast in NC that it takes just few hours to get out of noob stage. Why waste precious devs time for smth that players would use in than 1% of their char life? Why waste limited world estate for that?
And yet another argument: noobs are powerless without tradeskillers to poke them, res and cst their weapons. And where are all tradeskillers? In Plaza 1. And this is where all noobs will go. Noone will ever level outside city just because of that. And that's something you can't change, and should not even try to mess with - as the massive DoY fiasco has proven.
This is something very, very bad you've done in the new patch. You've not only wasted your time for things that are not necessary, contradicted by RP-lore and would lie unused. You've broken the First Commandment of any engineer: If the stuff is working, don't mess around with it.
You've took the cycrows zone, which was one of the few that *worked* and messed it up. It doesn't matter that you've tried to make it better - it was good enough.
We need to spice up both sides of that coin.
You have 2 coins. Noobs in sewers, capped players hunting rares. You can't even make them click on their own, yet you're foolish enough you're trying to make them click 2 things at once?!?
There is absolutely no reason why Wastelands should be accessible to low lvl characters.
Perhaps accessible is the wrong word. There's a delicate balance at play here. Those who have played the game for years (the vast majority of our player base) and have always been able to walk from Neocron to Military Base as a ~/10, would absolutely crucify us for any attempt made to prevent those low level characters from traversing the Wasteland. My opinion above is to simply make them work harder than they do now in exchange for more to do once they get to a higher level.
The Wastelands are supposed to be a dangerous place. People that are not tough enough to live out there are gathering in the city.
CM, TG and FA are faction for advanced players, deprived of that protection.
Hell, even in the real, friendly world 99% of us would die outside of cities and settlements, without support from other humans.
When did I suggest removing that danger?
RP-wise, let me remind you about deadly radiation the Dome and NC's shield was built against. IMHO Players could even receive constant DoT while in wastes, so chars of weaker posture would die just because of it while trying to limp to the nearest shelter.
I am a big fan of the lore and history of Neocron, personally I would love to add such a feature.
Besides that, leveling is so fast in NC that it takes just few hours to get out of noob stage. Why waste precious devs time for smth that players would use in than 1% of their char life? Why waste limited world estate for that?
Every area of the Wasteland already has low level (and in most cases medium level) encounters. Time would only be spent creating more higher level challenges which are desperately needed.
And yet another argument: noobs are powerless without tradeskillers to poke them, res and cst their weapons. And where are all tradeskillers? In Plaza 1. And this is where all noobs will go. Noone will ever level outside city just because of that. And that's something you can't change, and should not even try to mess with - as the massive DoY fiasco has proven.
So you'd prefer I didn't fix the broken dungeons available in Military Base, Tech Haven and the Canyon Facility and make those areas of the game actually usable? I've not stated I think new low characters should be able to level in the Wastelands, I'm actually suggesting we make it more difficult for them to survive out there but not sledge hammer it to the point we piss off our more experienced players. A key counter argument is that most characters spend their medium levels at Military Base.
Players entirely new to Neocron, who choose a faction outside the City, should be able to level naturally in their starting locations. If someone tells them to go to Plaza 1 and hop on the normal levelling tracks so be it, but that shouldn't mean they're knackered just because they thought Twilight Guardian or City Mercs (or previously Fallen Angels) sounded cool.
This is something very, very bad you've done in the new patch. You've not only wasted your time for things that are not necessary, contradicted by RP-lore and would lie unused. You've broken the First Commandment of any engineer: If the stuff is working, don't mess around with it.
You've took the cycrows zone, which was one of the few that *worked* and messed it up. It doesn't matter that you've tried to make it better - it was good enough.
First of all I have to thank you for testing that experience, this has been a guinea pig for working on the rest of the Wasteland. You'll notice I've taken some of your feedback on board and this should lead to some changes in the next test patch or two. I certainly do not consider trying something new to be a waste of time, especially under my remit within the team.
Please list your concerns regarding the contradictions of the lore, it is certainly never my intention to deviate from that. Evolve it and follow the paths set out by my predecessors yes but never deviate to the point of causing a contradiction. Neocron's lore and atmosphere is the reason I voluntarily continue to put so many hours into the game, if an oversight has violated that lore, I'd like to know your thoughts on where that oversight has occurred.
Cycrow and its surrounding Canyon Sectors still work, they are just different to the roundabout you've been riding in those zones for the last half decade. Those zones were a lot more like the proposed changes in R#184 prior to the release of Neocron 2. After so many years another bit of a refresh is certainly needed. As far as I can see, a lot of people have grown tired of playing exactly the same game over and over.
You have 2 coins. Noobs in sewers, capped players hunting rares. You can't even make them click on their own, yet you're foolish enough you're trying to make them click 2 things at once?!?
You'll have to explain that bit for me. None of what I said above aims to negatively impact either of those two groups. Low level and high level PvE are two sides of the same coin. Not separate ones.
Cursed Shadow
16-09-13, 18:24
I think more time needs to be spent sorting out the high level areas than the starter areas like Canyon.
I mean look at the following, which I agree are untouched, but I believe it's more to do with no incentive to go there!!
Swamp Caves
Crystal Caves (Rarely)
Worm Tunnels
Village Storage/Cellars
Warbot Facility
Graves (Only droners can go here, and even then it's a deathtrap)
Gaya Mines
Even Canyon Caves are quite underused now, how useful is the place when Regants exists, the boss doesn't drop anything worthwhile.
**Please correct me if I missed any decent/unique leveling places above which have become almost completely redundant.**
Outzone is inaccessible at times for noobs due to that stupid Dragon's Wrath mission which leaves guards all over the place that don't de-spawn soon enough.
I've already moaned about DoY becoming completely irrelevant and re-purposed for one WoC quest that nobody wants to run.
all this talk about new players (chars) vs high-level ones doesnt add up. right now you can level into a 40ish rank (4x/4x) within city limits, as theres plenty of mobs up to launcher cyclops (52/52). but after that (and for doing your epic) you need to leave the city (except CM, TG who already start in their respective home bases) to level up further. heres where the zone concept (see above) comes in: players should have the chance to get a rough idea at least what kind of mobs would live in what regions, so low-mids, high-mids or high-level chars would find the right area to have a fun time while hunting.
Trivs idea of dangerous mobs staying away from the roads comes in quite complementary (*imho). more 120ish mobs would be welcome anyways. in their own home areas, that is.
Cursed Shadow
16-09-13, 18:33
I think the only way you'd get more people to venture out of known levelling areas is if the exp stopped like it does in other games e.g. WoW. Where it just becomes absolutely redundant to attack a 32/32 at a certain level.
That would force people to get creative and pick other places to level.
Well, it should, but instead they'd just run TL150 Res missions because the rest is too much effort, then they'd just take a Droner Spy or other class to El Farid, Bunker or Regants to cap out.
RogerRamjet
16-09-13, 18:42
I think the only way you'd get more people to venture out of known levelling areas is if the exp stopped like it does in other games e.g. WoW. Where it just becomes absolutely redundant to attack a 32/32 at a certain level.
That would force people to get creative and pick other places to level.
Well, it should, but instead they'd just run TL150 Res missions because the rest is too much effort, then they'd just take a Droner Spy or other class to El Farid, Bunker or Regants to cap out.
That woud stop characters in power armour ruining MB bunker at least.
First of all, sorry for short post, I have no time atm and I'll address rest of the issues later.
Cycrow and its surrounding Canyon Sectors still work, they are just different to the roundabout you've been riding in those zones for the last half decade. Those zones were a lot more like the proposed changes in R#184 prior to the release of Neocron 2. Previously it was a challenge to kill a Persy with a group of hoppers as bodyguards there. Now it's just hold down fire button to kill singled out, supposed-to-be-most-dangerous mob.
Every sector sector is always in fragile balance between spawn that's too easy so it'll become overcrowded and spawn too hard so noone stays there. Cycrows was one of few that HAD this balance.
My point of view is that this was area frequented by players, therefore it was "working". And your biggest concern as devs should be to NOT MESS UP things that players use. Even more, you should copy as much as possible and try to replicate this very behaviour in places that are not visited by players aka "do not work".
After so many years another bit of a refresh is certainly needed. As far as I can see, a lot of people have grown tired of playing exactly the same game over and over.In my opinion, it's very stupid move to change things just because I can.
More importantly, you have many wastelands sector that noone visits. Why not play with them?
We have much more important issues, like fixing TG and NEXT epics, or repairing Symp autoregen, issues that people ask about on HELP almost every day. The last thing is very important, because it's something current dev team broke. Now please try to look at it from player perspective: instead of just fixing it and releasing the patch you're wasting your priceless and very limited time for some completely irrelevant non-issues.
And now let's think about how KK had habit of postponing everything for the next huge patch supposed to end world hunger. Culminated with Doy expansion and how it broke way more things that it fixed.
Can you now see my concern?
how about creating a survey for (semi) active players where they can rate zones and give reasons as to why they think they are broken?
William Antrim
17-09-13, 11:29
how about creating a survey for (semi) active players where they can rate zones and give reasons as to why they think they are broken?
Better still just make one thread per zone and comment on critically with screenshots. Probably the best idea in this thread.
how about creating a survey for (semi) active players where they can rate zones and give reasons as to why they think they are broken?start telling us right away. devs are listening (reading).
J01, J04, F12, F13 - these do work, don't change anything. Others should be modeled after them (except j01, because n00bs need to stick together, so more than 1 n00b area will do more harm than good)
the point of a survey instead of an open discussion would be the fact that you can get some metrics. finding similarities in the given reasons from different people. its far more difficult to compile useful data if you have to wade through several hundred posts where people keep discussing over more or less important issues instead of stating their opinion uncontested.
the point of a survey instead of an open discussion would be the fact that you can get some metrics. ... to compile useful data...i totally understand your point, enti. i just doubt our current small player base will yield enough comparable data, thats why i prefer posting opinions into a related thread like this one.
I love that other players are also concerned about the PVE game :)
So I will start with selected zones and tell you what i like / dislike / would improve, just to sum all of my chit chat up and give you some more ideas. Ready?
J_01
The most used low-midlevel-zone which we learned to allure. I had so many beautiful moments there, so many characters leveled up like hell. It was the first zone i ever encountered an Warbot. There should be 3 to 4 spawnpoints of them (just warbots, nothing else like spiders or that mean things). As a team you could simply draw one to the bunker and share the experience with other players, together with the loot (some of the teammates may hack, you don't).
The bunker is an awesome idea, which can be used from x/2 until x/40 or even later if you prefer to stay there. Also there were always players around which helped each other. Back in the days i started an PPU character just for supporting other players at the bunker.
J_02
Also very nice with the beachhouse for midlevel players (more solostuff - i love the Goguardian there) and very good for Warbot hunting.
J_03, J_04
Totally underused my be. I don't like the terrain and the spawnpoints of the enemies, which leads to high deathrates. Maybe just me, dunno. If the spawn was put more apart and those stupid spiderbots would not spawn over my spy while hacking, that would make those zones useable for me.
I_06
Used by me for the Mutant Pit (i love it) and for Warbot hunting with a car (quad prefered for cover).
Zones with Hoverbots, DoY units, ceres units and that other crap:
I don't use them. There is too high, too clustered spawn. I usually walk into the sync backwards, ready to jumpstart to the sync again in case of enemies. Reduce the amount of enemies, yet put 4 to 6 spawnpoints up where they spawn in groups up to 3, also grouped by type and level (rank). Give them rarepart drops, set up an house with a goguardian inside and watch players have fun alone or in teams :)
G_08
This zone was my ABSOLUTE favourite back then. No matter what character or weapon, i could hunt and level in this zone for weeks without getting tired. I love decayed horrors and decayed brutes. Also their spawn was something like vehicle parts, armor parts and rare parts (tech parts). There were no annoying hoverbots, ceres units, doy units or even warbots (some were there as i recall, but few). We used to go there as a team, yet split up to cover more ground and share the loot.
For years i'm asking to make this particular zone useable again. It was always crowded and always fun.
A_08
Just to jump to another not-used zone. Why should i use it? Alright, when i need to walk through there.. gee, i could take another map, not missing anything here. Same for 80 % of the map. There is no real use for those maps without content, bad spawn, bad loot, nothing.
I tried to use those unused zones very oftenly, yet everytime i tried i came to the conclusion, that the crowded zones are kinda more fun, faster to level at and get more stuff (loot). Let's say a random zone.. errr... E_05. What the heck is there? I don't need to go there.
Put some special mobs in every quadrupled grid, like A_06, A_07, B_06, B_07 there will spawn some 40/40 ionized spiderpigs that will drop special loot for building TL 60 weapons. In another grid, put 60/60 burning launchers which will drop something other of use. In general, there should be an (very good) option to visit (like the bunker), and an (not so good) alternative (like Battledome launchers). The good option will always catch fire and be populated by players.
Another zone that was very well populated before getting nerfed:
K_15, also known as Escador Oasis. There used to be a Generep there, before DoY was implemented. It was a very very nice leveling place, populated, with a beautiful landscaping and very awesome enemies.
To sum that stuff all up:
80 % of the zones are under- / not used by me because of lack of content, usefulnes, bad loot, etc.
There are very good and populated zones, like J_01, I_06, F_12, J_10 (only inside El Farid), F_13, E_13.
Think of them zones like they were in NC 1: G_08, K_15, J_01 and why they were so populated --> Copy & Paste to other sectors --> done.
RogerRamjet
18-09-13, 10:08
If the DoY warzone changes happen Escodar definitely needs a GR again.
There also open areas out the back of Soliko and Eastgate unpopulated by mobs, which would make an excellent place to drop some spawns (infact most OP zones seem to lack significant high level mobs that are actually huntable. Grant and Cycrow have good fire mobs, Malstrond has hoverbots, Ceres Mine has Y reps but you may as well not bother).
Cursed Shadow
18-09-13, 16:26
If the DoY warzone changes happen Escodar definitely needs a GR again.
There also open areas out the back of Soliko and Eastgate unpopulated by mobs, which would make an excellent place to drop some spawns (infact most OP zones seem to lack significant high level mobs that are actually huntable. Grant and Cycrow have good fire mobs, Malstrond has hoverbots, Ceres Mine has Y reps but you may as well not bother).
IIRC (correct me if not) Gabanium has already been mentioned for Warbots, Decayed Horrors, Hoverbots, and Brutes. That's lots of trophy hunting for one zone!
More zones need to be like this, trophy loot style or alternative requirements focus.
It would also be cool if there were alternatives to some of the caves, perhaps an outdoor version of the Crystal Cave Queen to make use of a huge section of an underpopulated zone.
To note some monsters I would like to see a super-high level awesome versions of the following monsers:
Sandcrawlers (I always thought a huge version of a Sandcrawler awaited me in the Wurm Tunnels)
Octopus mobs and Tentacles - they're a pain, they should be higher rank, for high level hunting (Perhaps they drop chemicals for rare build drugs?)
Poisonous Plants - Would be nice to see some 100+ ranked. (Perhaps they drop chemicals for rare build drugs?)
Aggressors and Launchers - This is pretty simple. Take most loved monsters, make ridiculously powerful version.
RogerRamjet
18-09-13, 16:42
You found the only OP that has decent mobs that I forgot ;)
Perhaps accessible is the wrong word. There's a delicate balance at play here. Those who have played the game for years (the vast majority of our player base) and have always been able to walk from Neocron to Military Base as a ~/10, would absolutely crucify us for any attempt made to prevent those low level characters from traversing the Wasteland. My opinion above is to simply make them work harder than they do now in exchange for more to do once they get to a higher level.I'm referring to the current state of testserver. Roads are devoid of danger, except occasional faction guards.
When did I suggest removing that danger?Here:
The Wastelands should be interesting and accessible for low and mid level characters Plus it's not just your opinion, this is what already happened on TS and what I am trying to stop before it hits retail.
Every area of the Wasteland already has low level (and in most cases medium level) encounters. Well, in theory yes, F12 indeed has /5 level creepers. However in practice, they are too close to /120 Grim Persecutor spawn to be accessible to low level players
Time would only be spent creating more higher level challenges which are desperately needed.WTF?!? How can you even say that, despite the evidence that the time has ALREADY been wasted on making many Wastelands sectors accessible to noobs and less challenging to high level players by "Increased the spread of high level monsters to prevent clumping" (http://forum.neocron-game.com/showthread.php?152017-R-184-T-184-5-PTS-Patch-Notes)
So you'd prefer I didn't fix the broken dungeons available in Military Base, Tech Haven and the Canyon Facility and make those areas of the game actually usable?Nope, I never said a word against fixing what's broken. My only problem is "fixing" things that are NOT broken.
I've not stated I think new low characters should be able to level in the Wastelands, I'm actually suggesting we make it more difficult for them to survive out there but not sledge hammer it to the point we piss off our more experienced players.?You're say one thing, but someone does the exact opposite. It is simply not possible for a noob to traverse zones near canyon on retail, but no prob on TS.
A key counter argument is that most characters spend their medium levels at Military Base.I don't understand this. I believe it's an argument I am making - that players follow very narrow tracks and any attempts to create other leveling areas are simply wasted. You either make it not as good as bunker, so noone will level there, or something better than bunker, so everyone will level there. You can change how the tracks go, but you can't make a junction.
Players entirely new to Neocron, who choose a faction outside the City, should be able to level naturally in their starting locations.An this is the point where you're entirely wrong. To level, new players need access to poke/res/cst services which are not available anywhere but Plaza1.
Factions starting outside NC are "advanced" factions, choosing them means you're giving yourself a handicap in the field of leveling. You start by begging for taxi. Your gain however is high symp in a faction you want to be your endgame faction.
There is a cost and there is a profit. It's balanced. All you need to do is to move starterapts back to where they belong.
If someone tells them to go to Plaza 1 and hop on the normal levelling tracks so be it, but that shouldn't mean they're knackered just because they thought Twilight Guardian or City Mercs (or previously Fallen Angels) sounded cool.Even with access to best leveling fields, they're still knackered with nothing but shabby TL3 knife.
First of all I have to thank you for testing that experience, this has been a guinea pig for working on the rest of the Wasteland. You'll notice I've taken some of your feedback on board and this should lead to some changes in the next test patch or two. I certainly do not consider trying something new to be a waste of time, especially under my remit within the team.Thanks for your thanks, and sorry fore being so hostile. But messing up with popular hunting ground IS a time wasted. And I am very sorry about that, because I consider your time priceless and non-replenishable resource.
Please list your concerns regarding the contradictions of the lore, it is certainly never my intention to deviate from that. Evolve it and follow the paths set out by my predecessors yes but never deviate to the point of causing a contradiction. Neocron's lore and atmosphere is the reason I voluntarily continue to put so many hours into the game, if an oversight has violated that lore, I'd like to know your thoughts on where that oversight has occurred.I believe the whole concept of making Wastelands safer to noobs contradicts this lore.
Cycrow and its surrounding Canyon Sectors still work, they are just different to the roundabout you've been riding in those zones for the last half decade. Those zones were a lot more like the proposed changes in R#184 prior to the release of Neocron 2. After so many years another bit of a refresh is certainly needed. As far as I can see, a lot of people have grown tired of playing exactly the same game over and over.Look at us. Who are your players? We're old geezers, with average NC history about 10 years. We're not your regular customer base, we're like Mr Monk. We don't like changes. In fact, if you see the popular requests, most of them is asking to bring the old stuff back.
I've already said that "preventing clumping" made firemobs spawn ridiculously easy, combine that with CRP's high availability due to dedicated GR and you've just created new cookie cutter, overcrowded in days.
You'll have to explain that bit for me. None of what I said above aims to negatively impact either of those two groups. Low level and high level PvE are two sides of the same coin. Not separate ones.I interpreted "one coin" is when they happen in one place. As on TS atm.
What I meant is it's very hard to balance each one on their own. Make it too easy and rewarding and everyone flocks there, deserting rest of the world. Make it slightly too unrewarding and noone will ever appear there. This is what I meant - it's extremely hard to balance newb and capped areas each on their own. Having something that is attractive to capped players while still accessible for noobs to traverse (like new F13) is imho too difficult to even think about thinking about it. That's why I believe you should keep the coins separate for a while. Treat leveling and hunting players as separate kinds, observe and analyse their needs separatelly. I do not believe anyone can successfully spread leveling crowd. Once someone learns the aggies/launchers/el farid/regants way, he's lost.
Leveling in NC is very fast and easy compared to many other games. It's not broken, so you should not worry about it. People can wander through sewers, IND A, OZ and nearby Wastelands - if they want. Noob experience is already in place, it is working, we just don't have any noobs for you to witness it working.
Bottom line:
Keep noobs in Plaza. This is where they belong. They won't spend much time being a low level, and when they cap, they'll need the rest of gameworld, dangerous and challenging.
Noob experience is already in place, it is working, we just don't have any noobs for you to witness it working.
In part because the godawful new player experience runs off those that do experiment - the only ones who seem to stick around are the ones lucky enough to find a person or group that is actually helpful. Which is pretty rare.
My "new player experience" on return lasted a day or two because I understand the mechanics and the best way to exploit them. Because lets not kid ourselves, the most effective means of leveling often seem counterintuititive (e.g. AOEing the shit out of dungeons) to the way the game portrays itself to be ("here, look at this rifle and pistol and tradeskills!").
El Farid and Regants are the primary mid to end leveling points for everyone - why? Because the rest of the world sucks shit.
William Antrim
19-09-13, 21:33
Make outposts give their bonuses again regardless of the GR settings.
Put lots of high level mobs into OP zones.
Put mid and low level mobs into NON-op zones.
Make the various dungeons have some form of "level range" with advice to runners about the type of levels they should be to enter said caves.
Balance the damage with risk/reward.
Make PVE more like NC1 essentially because we had lots of places that we could solo/group up in back then and it was fun because you met people in the wastes and sometimes you made friends and sometimes you got a new pair of boots.
The wastes should only be viable leveling for /20 and above. That said, traversing the wastes should be /2 friendly. The wastes should be dangerous, but there should be some sense and logic to it. The pathways in a zone should be clear, not because that is the nice thing to do, but because human nature says they should be. No one would spend the time to create a trail if it is plagued with life-threatening, laser shooting, doy buttholes.
RogerRamjet
20-09-13, 00:15
Make PVE more like NC1 essentially because we had lots of places that we could solo/group up in back then and it was fun because you met people in the wastes and sometimes you made friends and sometimes you got a new pair of boots.
Fully agree. I remember spending a week when I first started on Saturn at a house on a road out towards Gabanium, with a random runner i'd encountered out there. One of my favourite levelling experiences in game.
I do agree with some of the above quotes that the wastes need to be a scary/dangerous place for noobs though. There isn't a player out there who doesn't remember the first time they went through the blast doors at the OZ station (Sir Ramic Hobbs led me to the mutant pit at Jeriko, and logged off. I saw a Launcher Cyclops and ran all the way back to the station!). Or the first time they fought their way to the Canyon Facility, or Military Base, and not forgetting the gates of DoY after negotiating zones and zones of DoY bots, looking upon it, that was an amazing experience!
In part because the godawful new player experience runs off those that do experiment - the only ones who seem to stick around are the ones lucky enough to find a person or group that is actually helpful. Which is pretty rare.Finding any person is difficult. If you do, chances he'll be helpful are close to 1. That's what I am bashing devs for: trying to scatter noobs even farther apart.
My "new player experience" on return lasted a day or two because I understand the mechanics and the best way to exploit them. Because lets not kid ourselves, the most effective means of leveling often seem counterintuititive (e.g. AOEing the shit out of dungeons) to the way the game portrays itself to be ("here, look at this rifle and pistol and tradeskills!").From my experience, AoE is usually "teh shit" in every game. But yeah, NC has a very long history of starter setups designed to fuck ppl up. Like "let's give a ctor 20 res, he will definitely find this most useful".
El Farid and Regants are the primary mid to end leveling points for everyone - why? Because the rest of the world sucks shit.Not really, this is just for powerleveling secondary toons for rich ppl. When leveling your first char, you pretty much to have to go after WBs/firemobs after Launchers because rares are more important than xp at this point.
Regants works well as "most xp" place at the high costs of no loot and huge time investment to just run there (and after you die).
The wastes should only be viable leveling for /20 and above. That said, traversing the wastes should be /2 friendly. The wastes should be dangerous, but there should be some sense and logic to it. The pathways in a zone should be clear, not because that is the nice thing to do, but because human nature says they should be. No one would spend the time to create a trail if it is plagued with life-threatening, laser shooting, doy buttholes.I think it is general problem with doy buttholes, as they make places insanely dangerous for no reward at all. They are not useful for any hunting. I can agree with moving them away from roads and generally reducing their headcount, as with any place that's not used by players as hunting grounds.
But not with shuffling useful mobs like WBs or firemobs, that we actually need more, not less.
It's a multiplayer game after all, so taxiing noobs is smth that gives drivers a reason to exist.
i think this thread is in dire need of some sweet necro because it's more valid than ever. we probably need a subforum in either brainport and/or bugs with stickies for each zone and have people somehow put info there. needs promotion too.
Playing an openworld MMO like neocron isnt limited to raising a single char, but extends to learning game mechanics, terrain qualities, NPC behaviour/scripts, so you'd spend months and years before your own experience, as a player, caps out. Some of us learned how to farm, kite and use different mobs, to the extent of hauling in valuables without ever getting killed. i must admit i learned to love the diversity of NCs zones. some are great to linger at, others are deadly. reworking that fauna should be carried out cautiously, while i'd agree some mobs need better loot.
besides that i'd love to see aggressors removed from city cellars, so low-mid chars would be moved to the outzone and the grasslands. sadly both grasslands (the south) and swamps (the southwest) are perfect for low-mids, but totally underused. of course different wasteland zones come with different difficulty ratings, from little rats and spiders at the city gates to hoverbots and y soldiers. i agree that doy bots dont make a lot of sense these days and could be removed without being missed. i also would love to see the spawnrate of cyclops at the MB bunker lowered a lot, so people would be encouraged to make use of the vast wasteland and its countless levelling spots. but in the end it comes down to your personal style of playing this game. some people just like to grind exp, others dont. different zones and caves are asking for different playstyles, too, so judging areas from a single point of view seems problematic to me.
let me give you an example: when raising a new char, i never ever visit any cellars and basements in plaza or viarosso, but head for the industrial area instantly, which is the perfect playground for a 0/2 with a decent, constructed weapon. and after that the outzone, mainsewer, pepper park sewers (the latter being somewhat hard for a noob), then swamps. once my newb char has a TL 40ish weapon, it's warbot farming time, with a few visits to chaos caves for entertainment. hoverbots are even more of an excitement, but dont get you as many techparts per hour as properly farmed warbots. i'd also move from one zone to another while getting more exp, levels and damage per second for more loot in zones with heavyer spwans. droners are a different breed, there's industrial > outzone > el farid, chaos caves and even some regants > point red (another excellent but underused place), more of an indoor sport. but all this is mere matter of taste...
i think my main gripe is with the difficulty curve being all over the place and some zones are being a cluster fuck of mobs not being cleared out because they are worthless. the only time those get in your way is when they instagib you after zoning right into them.
i too like to roam and explore the wastes myself... but i noticed some zones simply being empty filler space... with no interesting features or viable farm spots. maybe that was kks intention when nc launched... to give you the full boring wastes experience which indeed makes the whole map feel a bit larger.
so i think you are right in that the wastes offer a lot of different experiences but i'm not sure some of those are actually intended and they also do not jell well with me.
RogerRamjet
07-04-16, 10:09
Glad to see I finally got round to making a thread after 3 years :D
Been any more thought on the dev side to removing the DoY units (y troopers etc)? The North Eastern part of the map was always my favourite and it was instantly ruined with the short sighted decision to flood it with those units.
Effectively, 1/5th of the map was ruined for no good gameplay reason that I can discern.
Been any more thought on the dev side to removing the DoY units (y troopers etc)? The North Eastern part of the map was always my favourite and it was instantly ruined with the short sighted decision to flood it with those units.
Effectively, 1/5th of the map was ruined for no good gameplay reason that I can discern.
They were fun once when DoY was about to hit... it made the game world more dangerous. Now they are just a nuisance and I think that their drop rate not nearly reflects their danger level. Currently I'd say just remove them all. I always thought they were just some kind of event not a permanent part of the game.
Doc Holliday
26-04-16, 14:57
This thread and the map torg did are both excellent. I have been having this exact thought recently about reverting/revamping the entire playing field in terms of pve.
It is far and away the singular biggest impact to the server and the community as a whole. It impacts absolutely everybody and in my eyes should have been a priority to fix from the get go.
Torg I love the map. I know we argue over a lot and never see eye to eye but on the opening post in this thread and that map i completely agree it should be redone as it was before it got fucked up in nc2. I think it sums it up perfectly. Filling in more of the spaces or making more viable levelling spots zone by zone would be something that could be included in the revamp.
I would like to suggest a community project to actually set about fixing this. I realise we cant expect there to be new caves etc designed as im sure its a monumental undertaking and also there are sooooooooooo many under utilised caves and storage areas in the game currently that to make more would not be doing them any justice.
Imo caves should be for teams (preferably with a healer but not utterly necessary if people are careful) and the open wasteland areas should be for solo runners or tech farmers etc.
Most importantly I think this could actually be a project the community could undertake to "map" out the zones and see whats out there in the wastes and can be converted feasibly (ie spawns altered etc for the mobs and mob density) in to actual viable levelling zones.
I would love to see the return of the warbots and mechanical mobs up in the j_1-7 areas especially northstar uplink etc. The sand areas can be hoppers etc or even add in more worms and what not around the swamp parts. It really depends what fits.
I would also like to be a part of a project if this were to happen to get this ball rolling as like i said i can absolutely see it happening if enough people get on with screenshots etc and suggestions and map it all out and do the ground work or the "heavy lifting" as it were and then pass it over to the NST to implement.
What I do want to know before we go forward on this and if its at all possible is can it be done without an absolute nightmare on the coding side @Trivaldi/Zoltan/NST because this is something that NEEDS to happen.
I have a ton of ideas about how to do it but need to know if its not all for nothing if it cant be implemented once the work is done.
What I do want to know before we go forward on this and if its at all possible is can it be done without an absolute nightmare on the coding side @Trivaldi/Zoltan/NST because this is something that NEEDS to happen.
I have a ton of ideas about how to do it but need to know if its not all for nothing if it cant be implemented once the work is done.
We all have and had tons of ideas in the past. Sadly those have mostly been ignored or put on some imaginary list with random order that changes on random intervals. I won't put any more work into collecting and reporting issues before I don't get a clear cut answer if they will ever be worked on. No point filling up the brain port with more stuff. It's already a black hole and if you look into past threads that were made years ago you will probably find lots of your current ideas being talked about only to vanish into the void never to be seen again... just like this thread i dug up from a few years back. Just look at the date of the first post. There is no shortage of ideas... there rarely is. There is a shortage of man power to put them into place and a shortage of communication that puts those ideas on a road map on in the spot light. Same really goes for all but the most pressing bugs.
I know I'm utterly negative here but I don't get the feeling anything is really changing. The NST has it's hands full with their own stuff already. They are seemingly struggling to get some much needed infrastructure out of the door for what feels like years. I hope that with the advent of those tools we will see many issues resolved in a more timely fashion. What I don't see is any relevant time frame in which that will actually happen. Whenever you create something to help getting done some manual labor you need to think if the time spent on the automation will actually have an impact on the overall development. The NST clearly thinks so... and they really don't have much of a choice any more unless they want to throw away years of hard labor. I certainly wouldn't.
Doc Holliday
26-04-16, 15:36
We all have and had tons of ideas in the past. Sadly those have mostly been ignored or put on some imaginary list with random order that changes on random intervals. I won't put any more work into collecting and reporting issues before I don't get a clear cut answer if they will ever be worked on. No point filling up the brain port with more stuff. It's already a black hole and if you look into past threads that were made years ago you will probably find lots of your current ideas being talked about only to vanish into the void never to be seen again... just like this thread i dug up from a few years back. Just look at the date of the first post. There is no shortage of ideas... there rarely is. There is a shortage of man power to put them into place and a shortage of communication that puts those ideas on a road map on in the spot light. Same really goes for all but the most pressing bugs.
I know I'm utterly negative here but I don't get the feeling anything is really changing. The NST has it's hands full with their own stuff already. They are seemingly struggling to get some much needed infrastructure out of the door for what feels like years. I hope that with the advent of those tools we will see many issues resolved in a more timely fashion. What I don't see is any relevant time frame in which that will actually happen. Whenever you create something to help getting done some manual labor you need to think if the time spent on the automation will actually have an impact on the overall development. The NST clearly thinks so... and they really don't have much of a choice any more unless they want to throw away years of hard labor. I certainly wouldn't.
I think the negativity is welcome in a way. What I am trying to suggest is, if we can get a simple green light on what im proposing, we do all the manual work ourselves. Get it all compiled in to one giant project and then hand it over to be input in to the game. Take the labour off their hands and into ours so we can actually pitch in and help out.
I agree on the sentiment the brainport feels like a place where ideas go to die. It absolutely does. What i have been mulling recently is very similar to what torgs opening post and subsequent posts were about. I looked at the date straight away and realised it was 3 years ago.
what my intention is mate is to go above the discussion stage and take some affirmative action and get this rolling IF it can be done. By affirmative action i mean gathering a group of willing volunteers and organising the changes that have been discussed and, using the tools at our disposal, drawing them up in a way that all that needs doing is the person with the power to implement it doing just that. Meaning zoltan. We do all the hard work and he has to simply edit things inside the game itself. I realise it wont be that easy, it never is but at least we go beyond the discussion stage and get stuck in to making a change. or at least attempting to.
Worth a shot?
William Antrim
26-04-16, 19:02
You need the greenlight from the shot caller. Until you get that it's just pixels on a screen.
I actually joined the team on the content side initially and one of the first things I did was propose a mob redistribution concept.
Unfortunately I was only a 'Lab Assistant' without the ability to actually implement anything, leaving people like Trivaldi to do the work (which isn't too hard, but is time consuming), alas personal issues at the time, all the other problems the team has dealt with over the years and me moving to balance, meant that it sat gathering dust, with only a partial realisation of the TG canyon mobs/caves reaching PTS.
besides that i'd love to see aggressors removed from city cellars, so low-mid chars would be moved to the outzone and the grasslands.
Indeed. The idea of having aggies in Plaza always seemed a bit odd to me. The proposal basically had mob level increase with distance from Via Rosso, with mutants only starting to appear at PP. The peak would be in the mid regions of OZ, before falling back again the closer to the starter apts in OZ1.
sadly both grasslands (the south) and swamps (the southwest) are perfect for low-mids, but totally underused.
Let's compare the OZ/Ind A Storage areas with the Mutant Trap and The Bunker (there are tons of bunkers in NC, but as most of us know, there is only one The Bunker) and what could be done to fix them to make them equally viable levelling areas (if for different types of players if not for all players).
The Storage areas suffer most from being far from allbuyers, P1 and a 'safe' genrep.
The Trap takes a while to run to from the safety of the OZ station, even if there's an allbuyer nearby.
The Bunker on the other hand has a nearby (comparatively) safe GR, albuyer and handy cover that the actually dangerous mobs can't get inside.
The main problem is The Bunker. Getting to MB is not the ordeal it used to be thanks to the Quad and the Observer. GR costs cap out at 4k.
Then there's the issue of mob level diversity. A harder to reach leveling spot might have mobs closer together as somewhere for someone to level more efficiently (and perhaps have poorer loot). Somewhere easier to reach might have a wider spread but better non-xp rewards.
i agree that doy bots dont make a lot of sense these days and could be removed without being missed.
They were fun once when DoY was about to hit... it made the game world more dangerous. Now they are just a nuisance and I think that their drop rate not nearly reflects their danger level. Currently I'd say just remove them all. I always thought they were just some kind of event not a permanent part of the game.
I don't mind them as a 'remnant' feature in the northern areas. Having no reason to hunt them doesn't help though (something I maaaay have been thinking upon for the implants/armours).
I've asked the team how much of the old proposal I can show you guys to pour over.
Doc Holliday
27-04-16, 02:50
In order to make a proper go of this I would split the task in to sections. Neocron City could be one with all its different zones. Then the wastelands but that would also need to be subdivided in to sectors.
I think disregarding any sector with an OP in it for the initial analysis would be the best and also any one with a cave entrance of some kind as well as any that are deemed to be acceptable in current state (cycrow etc are probably best left alone).
Then its a case of going around each zone and just having a look and seeing what can fit there and would look right and fit with that part of the world but make for a good levelling zone or if not actual grind spot then at least would fit with the world for the purpose of the lore. Dont have to make amazing spots in every zone maybe one in every 9 tile quadrant or somewhere similar.
I REALLY REALLY think that general mob damage is a thing that needs to be looked at (grim percs :D) but thats a larger part of the balancing project no doubt. However, it really does need to be adjusted as soon as possible even if its a temporary adjustment because you cant have rifle and hc users being able to go out and farm shit in the wastes and everyone else with short range (pistol/melee/psi) being stuck in a cave or regants legacy because they have such gimped range (among other factors).
At the same time I think the damage in regants legacy would need to be increased to make it so you cant just wander down with your tl20 grenade launcher and leech like a boss to get to cap. That undoubtedly requires work on the code side but would be a critical piece of this entire project.
However its not a barrier to progress so this could still be gotten started with and then come back and try and look at the damage etc and its impact on the revamped zones at a later date.
As a side note: I don't think it is possible to reduce the damage mobs do. You'd first have to fix the myriad issues that led to that "fix": Poor AI and otherwise glitchy engine issues for example. These can't be fixed imho. You'd need to switch engine (UE4 anyone :D).
UE4 Neocron now that would be something lol.... 8|
I don't mind them as a 'remnant' feature in the northern areas.
They add nothing of value, and removed substantial value. There are too many, they are too powerful, and they removed a significant section of the map from general use. Even if they are given rares to drop, leave them in tunnels and return the gameworld (albeit rejigged slightly and with changed spawn rates) to how it used to be. Not out of nostalgia, but because an area with a unique identity and *feel* was utterly ruined by a short-sighted and hamfisted deision a very long time ago.
Doc Holliday
27-04-16, 14:04
You'd need to switch engine (UE4 anyone :D).
Pipedream but a damn good one. Would be great if kirk could allow this to happen and do a full blown port to UE4 of NC. Hell i would put in as much money as i can possibly afford to help the support team get that going.
Pipedream but a damn good one. Would be great if kirk could allow this to happen and do a full blown port to UE4 of NC. Hell i would put in as much money as i can possibly afford to help the support team get that going.
You have to dream big. It we be so great if we could free the IP from Kirk and make the project open source. One man can dream...
'Porting to UE4' can't happen, almost everything would be needed to be created from scratch and the vast majority of the background architecture created from scratch.
It would be creating a new game using NC as inspiration. Unless your funds number in the several of millions, they might as well be nothing.
Look at the struggles that the tens of projects launched to recreate Morrowind in Oblivion (and when that didn't happen, to Skyrim) and then Oblivion in Skyrim.
Recreating a game in the same (but upgraded) engine by one of the most dedicated fanbases, has resulted in the sum total of....nothing even near completion to show for nigh on 10 years of work.
'Porting to UE4' can't happen, almost everything would be needed to be created from scratch and the vast majority of the background architecture created from scratch.
It would be creating a new game using NC as inspiration. Unless your funds number in the several of millions, they might as well be nothing.
Look at the struggles that the tens of projects launched to recreate Morrowind in Oblivion (and when that didn't happen, to Skyrim) and then Oblivion in Skyrim.
Recreating a game in the same (but upgraded) engine by one of the most dedicated fanbases, has resulted in the sum total of....nothing even near completion to show for nigh on 10 years of work.
I beg to differ... have you seen OpenMW? The engine makes Morrowind fully playable. They of course work with the original assets... which could be difficult if not impossible for NC. We would need a tool to convert everything. Of course it would take years if it could be done at all. But not trying is a sure fire way to fail.
OpenMW is similar to OpenXcom, an open source engine that uses the original art assets without modification. 'Porting to UE4' would almost certainly involve the painstaking recreation of every art asset, given the low res/low detail nature of Neocron's graphics. Beyond that, what would it gain to have the exact same art assets in a different engine? 3? 4? 5? years work to end up not really any further than we are now?
I was actually incorrect, Morroblivion finally reached mostly complete status last year - after a solid 9 years work :)
OpenMW is similar to OpenXcom, an open source engine that uses the original art assets without modification. 'Porting to UE4' would almost certainly involve the painstaking recreation of every art asset, given the low res/low detail nature of Neocron's graphics. Beyond that, what would it gain to have the exact same art assets in a different engine? 3? 4? 5? years work to end up not really any further than we are now?
I was actually incorrect, Morroblivion finally reached mostly complete status last year - after a solid 9 years work :)
Having the original assets would make it possible to have a playable version out sooner rather then later. You could gradually replace everything.
Advantages off the top of my head:
- Readily available tools (creating assets and scripts would be much easier)
- Very good bot AI,
- Platform support,
- Bigger zones... maybe even one big zone,
- Engine errors are fixed upstream, patches from the Neocron team would improve the UE engine even further,
- Volunteers working on Neocron would get actual experience with tools that could be readily used in real world projects
If you look at the progress Neocron made with the NST team over the last few years... due to already mentioned issues... you could say it is slow. I mean many engine issues will NEVER be resolved. It is just not feasible. I think the advantages would be huge.
Advantages off the top of my head:
- Readily available tools (creating assets and scripts would be much easier)
Art assets, sure. Scripts? That's a bit of an assumption. Remember, UE4 is categorically not an MMO engine and Star Citizen's massive problem (which are one of the reasons for why the collapse of the project without releasing the game is becoming probable rather than possible) stems from engine issues as much as from feature creep. Using cryengine and modifying it when necessary for the unique nature of SC was believed to be relatively achievable and easily surmounted. Now...
- Very good bot AI Bot AI is not translatable to an MMO. What unit AI does in a single/multi player game is very different to an MMO.
- Platform support
Irrelevant
- Bigger zones... maybe even one big zone UE4 projects a sphere around the player character that is 'alive'. It does not maintain e.g. 400km2 of world alive all at once.
Are you aware of any existing UE4 project that maintain an area anywhere approaching the sum total of NC?
- Volunteers working on Neocron would get actual experience with tools that could be readily used in real world projects
That's nice and a positive thing, but again, not really relevant.
If you look at the progress Neocron made with the NST team over the last few years... due to already mentioned issues... you could say it is slow. I mean many engine issues will NEVER be resolved. It is just not feasible. I think the advantages would be huge.
There is no point suggesting an impossibility and then saying 'being realistic gets you nowhere'.
Neocron is a legacy game. It will remain an oddity no matter what the NST achieves (including a port to UE4), because gaming habits and player expectations/desires have moved on. The biggest market for Neocron remains old players returning, hopefully dragging a few new players along with them each time.
They want to come back and visit for a few months every now and then, reconnecting and remembering and rediscovering before leaving for a while.
Art assets, sure. Scripts? That's a bit of an assumption. Remember, UE4 is categorically not an MMO engine and Star Citizen's massive problem (which are one of the reasons for why the collapse of the project without releasing the game is becoming probable rather than possible) stems from engine issues as much as from feature creep. Using cryengine and modifying it when necessary for the unique nature of SC was believed to be relatively achievable and easily surmounted. Now...
Just looking for something and found this: http://pangaea-game.com
Bot AI is not translatable to an MMO. What unit AI does in a single/multi player game is very different to an MMO.
Depends. You can always change the behavior by scripting. I'm not saying you can just use that AI and be done with it.
Irrelevant
For you maybe.
UE4 projects a sphere around the player character that is 'alive'. It does not maintain e.g. 400km2 of world alive all at once.
Are you aware of any existing UE4 project that maintain an area anywhere approaching the sum total of NC?
I'd have to research that a little further.
That's nice and a positive thing, but again, not really relevant.
How is that not relevant? It opens up the possibility for far more volunteers. I'd say the barrier of entry to Neocrons legacy code is just too much for many.
There is no point suggesting an impossibility and then saying 'being realistic gets you nowhere'.
Well... that's just a plain negative attitude. Nothing more. This surely is not impossible... and far more impossible things have already been achieved.
Neocron is a legacy game. It will remain an oddity no matter what the NST achieves (including a port to UE4), because gaming habits and player expectations/desires have moved on. The biggest market for Neocron remains old players returning, hopefully dragging a few new players along with them each time.
They want to come back and visit for a few months every now and then, reconnecting and remembering and rediscovering before leaving for a while.
Maybe so... and maybe not. It clearly is not feasible to expand Neocron in its current state. I believe that fixing Neocrons' inherent issues is far more difficult than switching the engine. The downside is of course that the team is already familiar with the engines' short comings and issues. They obviously try their best to overcome that by writing a lot of tools and try to modernize it. I can't really say if that is a lot more work than it's worth though. Also... change is difficult. Always.
I do realize that the chances of that happening are close to 0. But saying it's impossible... lol no way.
Aside the fact we are not in charge for the decision of a engine switch, it's already often said thats rather a difficult task. Quite a few members have experience using UE/Unity/Cry, but it does not change a lot. As you mentioned, it's one thing to port assets, but assets don't shoot and will give you missions nor they are able to have you logging in. After i created P1 Medi from scratch or ported Via 3, i where still left with the original geometry and plain diffuse maps. Well, now they casted a shadow, nothing else. I still have very low poly models alone with a 256x256 diffuse bitmap.
Next to the new bugs a port introduce, you need to utilize the engine to get some benefits out of there what will create another kind of simple workload. What is beeing the most important part: We are still NC and don't loose any topic on balancing, implant changes, new runner experience, aggis in plaza sectors or Monks. It's just a better looking game with the same gameplay topics.
Of course you have a much more effective workflow and up-to-date tools to patch content and do shiny new things. But the benefits are more in a "from scratch" approach, instead of a port.
Aside the fact we are not in charge for the decision of a engine switch, it's already often said thats rather a difficult task. Quite a few members have experience using UE/Unity/Cry, but it does not change a lot. As you mentioned, it's one thing to port assets, but assets don't shoot and will give you missions nor they are able to have you logging in. After i created P1 Medi from scratch or ported Via 3, i where still left with the original geometry and plain diffuse maps. Well, now they casted a shadow, nothing else. I still have very low poly models alone with a 256x256 diffuse bitmap.
Next to the new bugs a port introduce, you need to utilize the engine to get some benefits out of there what will create another kind of simple workload. What is beeing the most important part: We are still NC and don't loose any topic on balancing, implant changes, new runner experience, aggis in plaza sectors or Monks. It's just a better looking game with the same gameplay topics.
Of course you have a much more effective workflow and up-to-date tools to patch content and do shiny new things. But the benefits are more in a "from scratch" approach, instead of a port.
I realize all that. But do you see any "light at the end of the tunnel" for the current approach? I mean you won't give any dates or time frames for obvious reasons... but you must have a vision of the future judging from your experiences. As always it is a cost / benefit calculation. If you do the calculation for the next 5 years where do you suppose the game ought to be? You clearly have faith in the current approach otherwise you'd have given up a long time ago.
Who would be in charge for that decision? Kirk I suppose?
Just looking for something and found this: http://pangaea-game.com
Kickstarter cancelled after it received $3600 out of $250,000, and the steam page was last updated on 01/10/2015. Release date was meant to be December 2016 but the official site has had exactly two updates this year.
Depends. You can always change the behavior by scripting. I'm not saying you can just use that AI and be done with it.
Then what are you saying? The scripting of an entity that exists in potential perpetuity for an MMO is different than an AI for a temporary character in an FPS.
How is that not relevant? It opens up the possibility for far more volunteers. I'd say the barrier of entry to Neocrons legacy code is just too much for many.
I would be more worried about turnover, personally!
Well... that's just a plain negative attitude. Nothing more. This surely is not impossible... and far more impossible things have already been achieved.
Stating something is outside the realms of possibility while explaining why I believe that to be the case is not a negative attitude.
Maybe so... and maybe not. It clearly is not feasible to expand Neocron in its current state. I believe that fixing Neocrons' inherent issues is far more difficult than switching the engine. The downside is of course that the team is already familiar with the engines' short comings and issues. They obviously try their best to overcome that by writing a lot of tools and try to modernize it. I can't really say if that is a lot more work than it's worth though. Also... change is difficult. Always.
The team are more knowledgeable about converting to a new engine vs continuing with the existing one. Perhaps you should be asking them for their reasons why, rather than baldy stating things like the above.
Also, change is not always difficult. That's a silly statement to make. Change is often easier.
I do realize that the chances of that happening are close to 0. But saying it's impossible... lol no way.
It is impossible, unless you are talking about a 0.000000000000000000001% edge case where e.g. l0ki wins the euromillions and buys the rights to Neocron.
That isn't a possibility to be considered, or worked toward.
That isn't a possibility to be considered, or worked toward.
Well... yes.
Well... yes.
Maybe aliens land in Hamburg in 4 years and discover Neocron, decrying that all world governments co-ordinate to recreate it in VR. I can't state that that is impossible, and nor can you. However, anyone but a buffoon would agree that it is an impossible objective given all available information that is currently available.
Further, I would argue that your attitude is the negative one. Setting unrealistic goals sets unrealistic expectations. That makes actual achievements and gains by the team seem even smaller and more inconsequential, leading to even more disappointment. This results in a volunteer team who are made to feel inadequate and inept, and a fanbase who are ever angry.
Doc Holliday
28-04-16, 03:11
I think entis point was that if neocron could happen in a new engine this would be awesome. perhaps his choice of said engine being UE4 was not the best but all the same it needed to be an example.
People tend to lock in to the specifics of whats written when it is largely more figurative than literal. So figuratively speaking this is what i discerned from the post. How good would it be if neocron could be recreated on XYZ engine.
Answer. Truly amazing. Skipping the glaringly obvious IP issues aside the detractors/naysayers/realists say well that will take years. It absolutely could but then with a modern engine comes the potential of MORE people to work on it and help build it out from scratch rather than a small team working almost autonomously as is current. Second with more modern equipment more people can contribute. plus items made in community could potentially be used like they do in ued.
A kickstarter even, to help raise funds to pay for some of the other stuff that may be needed from a hardware perspective, is more likely to be successful if a new engine is proposed to be used rather than beating on the current one in use.
There are great many more positives i dont have the time to write out.
However. As its been said this is merely a pipedream and while in some ways you can scratch your head and go ok why hasnt this happened yet because all reasons above mean it should but then there are the negatives too which have been discussed countless times before about IP ownership etc etc etc and the sheer task of building this entire game FROM SCRATCH would take a lot for a group of volunteers no matter how much time was dedicated on it or how big said group was.
Still the optimist in me would love to see the team at least open a discussion to attempt to do this while the realist knows thats not likely to happen.
Can still keep hoping tho. ;)
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