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Alduin
28-08-13, 10:42
Dear community,

the topic of zone line whoring rises every once in a while. Zone line whoring is a problem we are aware of but which is hard to tackle. Neocron's current architecture needs those Zone lines to work and changing it would be a huge undertaking on a timescale of at least a year or so and is therefore not an option at the moment. Therefore we need to think about other ways to solve this problem.

On option worth considering in our opinion is to introduce a sync cooldown after shooting, such that e.g. 10 to 20 seconds after your last shot you cannot sync. What are your thoughts about this? What other options do you have in mind?

We are aware of the fact that we are opening Pandora's box here. So just a quick reminder: Keep this discussion calm! Flamewars will not be tolerated and will lead to a vacation from the brainport.

Slauncha,
Alduin

Cursed Shadow
28-08-13, 11:23
The problem I see with putting a penalty on Last Shot before Sync is that most of the PvP'ers that dominate these areas are Spies, which have a stealth advantage over other classes to avoid damage long enough to zone out.

I think what we do need is a downtime when you ENTER a zone, however I think the person should be safe during that time too, and I think this should only affect city sectors.

I'm not sure what the best solution is. Perhaps if you had a 'Sphere of Protection' between entering zones which made you unable to pull a weapon for 5-10 seconds, but you could not be targeted/receive damage either. (Like a temporary Law Enforcement +1 buff).

This would make the idea of zone line fighting more tedious because you're constantly waiting for your cool down to finish before you can get back into the fight.

Another consideration, what about removing buffs between zone synchs? If you're trying to buff your friends with a PPU before they enter a fight at the other side of a zone line. If they lost all of their buffs, well, I'm pretty sure that would balance out the fight, as well as reduce the usefulness of PPUs in Zoneline Fights. (Again, this needs to only apply to City Sectors)
The above statement would be balanced if you only removed third party buffs during synchs, and maintained self-cast buffs.

Chuck Norris
28-08-13, 11:25
after a successful damaging of a player, you will get a buff/debuff that is not removable except upon wearing off in 60 seconds or death, which makes you KoS to all factions AKA gaurds/copbots. this will help combat zone whoring in towns. you can add guards/cops accordingly to zone lines.

This wont help to much with zone whoring at op's tho so shrug

Quick thought that can be ironed out.... just theory crafting here

Chuck Norris
28-08-13, 11:27
Another consideration, what about removing buffs between zone synchs? If you're trying to buff yourself before entering a fight at the other side of a zone line, if you lost all of your buffs, well, I'm pretty sure that would level out the fight. (Again, this needs to only apply to City Sectors)

I really like this idea, really kills off the two boxers zone line buffers, this would help with ops also

Cursed Shadow
28-08-13, 11:32
I really like this idea, really kills off the two boxers zone line buffers, this would help with ops also

I did just change this slightly. I think it should only remove third party buffs.
Otherwise a PPU would be toast after he zoned ^^

Perhaps that's not a bad thing though!

Doc Holliday
28-08-13, 13:37
removing buffs on zoning fucks the ppu and the pe. foreign shields could work but that then fucks the apu hard if he gets buffed before he zones.

have to consider each option carefully people. If your an apu and your at an op fight and you zone up say from the UG and u get a long synch your fucked. Your fucked even quicker without buffs.

Cursed Shadow
28-08-13, 13:39
I stated repeatedly,this should be the case for City War Zone Sectors only. E.g. PP1.

SilentEye
28-08-13, 13:48
You have to think of the zone line as non existent. As such, removing buffs on zoning sounds very illogical to me, the penalty seems too strong.

I like the original idea where zoning gets disabled for a while, I think some discussion should happen on the criteria that triggers the disabling.

Would it happen after you shoot? Or after you get damaged? Maybe always?

Cursed Shadow
28-08-13, 13:50
You have to think of the zone line as non existent. As such, removing buffs on zoning sounds very illogical to me, the penalty seems too strong.

I like the original idea where zoning gets disabled for a while, I think some discussion should happen on the criteria that triggers the disabling.

Would it happen after you shoot? Or after you get damaged? Maybe always?

BlackMaze, I love you, I really do, but we cannot think of the Zone Line as non-existent. It's existence is being abused.

The problem with the 'Zoning gets disabled for a while' argument, is that we need to consider the scenario that can be abused here:

I run into PP1 and notice another runner and begin to do battle. He calls in his buddy who is lurking in the Club or Tsunami HQ. I have no way out now, I cannot zone away and their belt is mine to take.

Any kind of prevention of zoning, will just be exploited/capitalized upon in a different format using gang up tactics.

SilentEye
28-08-13, 13:51
BlackMaze, I love you, I really do, but we cannot think of the Zone Line as non-existent. It's existence is being abused.
I love you too :)

I understand what you say but I still think removing buffs is too strong. But let's see what others think :)

EDIT:

A little idea that just popped up with me; maybe add a timer on the zone actions. So when you zone, you remain in the zone for a second or 5 before you zone.

There could be criteria on this;

Only when you have been in combat for the past 5 seconds (shooting or damage wise) you get the cool down.

Cool down doesn't have to be on zone lines, only on objects such as sewer hatches, OP undergrounds :)

Think about it, just throwing some stuff up!

devilstriker
28-08-13, 14:11
Delete the Savezones so no PPU's stand there AFKand waits for someone to heal and shield.

Ivan Eres
28-08-13, 14:25
Delete the Savezones so no PPU's stand there AFKand waits for someone to heal and shield.

I think you should at least read the initial post before making suggestions.


Dear community,
[...]Neocron's current architecture needs those Zone lines to work and changing it would be a huge undertaking on a timescale of at least a year or so and is therefore not an option at the moment. Therefore we need to think about other ways to solve this problem.
[...]
Slauncha,
Alduin

Cursed Shadow
28-08-13, 14:43
Delete the Savezones so no PPU's stand there AFKand waits for someone to heal and shield.

I believe you're actually saying that all zones around e.g. PP1 should be made non-safe, meaning you can pull a weapon there.

The problem with this, is that neighbouring PP1 is the Tsunami HQ, if you were to make it a zone whereby you could pull a gun, well droners would exploit the hell out of it for levelling purposes.

nabbl
28-08-13, 14:43
Some time ago I made a suggestion to counter sync-laming where people are constantly trying to sync in and out of levelzones to avoid getting hit:

http://forum.neocron-game.com/showthread.php?150645-Insert-Timer-to-counter-Sync-Laming&highlight=synch

Maybe we can enhance this.
Why not implementing a "fight-mode" trigger. When you are shooting at someone (firing your weapon) you are set in "fight-mode". Means that you can't leave a zone after a certain amount of time passed where you didn't shoot anymore. Let's say it is 10 seconds.

This could even be a nice feature. Think of being in the pepper park sectors and you get shot. You have two possibilities. Run or shoot back, knowing that shooting back means that either you die or the enemy dies.

But we have to be careful with Spies. Stealth should pause the counter. Let's say you are shooting someone and he comes back at you, so you find it useful to get into stealth. 10 seconds are not a long time for stealthers. They can simply wait near a zoneline and sync after the 10 seconds are out.
When you go into stealth your counter should stop at the point where you went into stealthing.

hatmankh
28-08-13, 14:55
I think nabbl's suggestion would be fair, stealthers can still escape combat more easily, especially in the wasteland but at least you'll have a chance to kill them as they need to wait 10 seconds unstealthed before they can zone.

I don't support the suggestions in here for removing ppu buffs on zoning, it would get tedious having to constantly rebuff whenever you zone and with the zone timer it's really unnecessary to mess with buffs too.

Cursed Shadow
28-08-13, 14:57
Some time ago I made a suggestion to counter sync-laming where people are constantly trying to sync in and out of levelzones to avoid getting hit:

http://forum.neocron-game.com/showthread.php?150645-Insert-Timer-to-counter-Sync-Laming&highlight=synch

Maybe we can enhance this.
Why not implementing a "fight-mode" trigger. When you are shooting at someone (firing your weapon) you are set in "fight-mode". Means that you can't leave a zone after a certain amount of time passed where you didn't shoot anymore. Let's say it is 10 seconds.

This could even be a nice feature. Think of being in the pepper park sectors and you get shot. You have two possibilities. Run or shoot back, knowing that shooting back means that either you die or the enemy dies.

But we have to be careful with Spies. Stealth should pause the counter. Let's say you are shooting someone and he comes back at you, so you find it useful to get into stealth. 10 seconds are not a long time for stealthers. They can simply wait near a zoneline and sync after the 10 seconds are out.
When you go into stealth your counter should stop at the point where you went into stealthing.

Completely agree.

I wonder what you think about my suggestion of removing Third Party buffs when you sync into certain types of zones. e.g. PP1 is given a 'War Zone' type or something. Synching into that zone removes all third party buffs. Of course, your PPU friend can follow you in, but you can't multibox with a PPU in a safe zone.

Cursed Shadow
28-08-13, 14:58
I think nabbl's suggestion would be fair, stealthers can still escape combat more easily, especially in the wasteland but at least you'll have a chance to kill them as they need to wait 10 seconds unstealthed before they can zone.

I don't support the suggestions in here for removing ppu buffs on zoning, it would get tedious having to constantly rebuff whenever you zone and with the zone timer it's really unnecessary to mess with buffs too.

I already said Third Party buffs, not self casts.

hatmankh
28-08-13, 15:00
I read and understood your post, I don't think they should get removed either. Think of it like this, buffs only last a couple minutes and with the zoneline changes you won't be able to run back and get buffed again after that time is up, ppus logged off in safe zones become useful only for your initial entrance into a combat zone, after those few minutes if you're still in combat you can't run away and you're unbuffed.

I actually think removing buffs on zoning would make things even worse if you don't like ppus in every little fight, we'd end up with ppu players constantly healing, shielding and anting in every single encounter because almost every fight would be to the death.

Trivaldi
28-08-13, 15:07
The below is my personal opinion and only intended to further the discussion, it's not a indication of intent by the team as a whole.


I think what we do need is a downtime when you ENTER a zone.
I've cropped this quote right down to highlight this specific point. To me this seems like a reasonably strong solution. In my mind moving to another zone in order to escape is not a huge problem, that bit makes perfect sense in any combat situation. Assuming its a one way trip it's the same as running around a corner in a single zone, just with a moment of loading thrown in.

The problem, as we all know, arises when there is a CONSTANT back and forth over a single zone line. I like the quoted suggestion above as it means the combatant has to commit to zoning. If you zone down into a sewer, that's where the next X seconds of the action HAS to happen. If you jump into the next zone, predator is gonna follow prey and that's where it all does down. As long as the cool down is long enough, there would be enough time to get some action in before heading back to the original zone or the next one.

The second problem though, which the above alone wouldn't solve, is zone whoring with safe zones. Both combatants zone into a neighboring safe zone, then instead of heading straight back to a normal zone they'd have to sit around and share small talk for those X seconds.

My personal proposal for this would be to add additional behavior to guards, in conjunction with a zone entry cool down.

PvP (specifically not including PvE) should activate a flag on your character, which has a cool down period of Y seconds. If you zone into a safe zone (specifically a safe zone) guards in the zone should react to that PvP flag and shoot you. If you zone into any other zone type, only the zone entry cool down would be in play, allowing the fighting to continue as normal. This should discourage fights from hugging safe zone zone lines, but does not stop those safe zones being a starting point for inner city PvP. I'm aware being able to hop into the action is a very important issue we must consider for inner city PvP.

From a RP perspective - if you will excuse such bad language ;) - this makes a lot of sense. If the zone line simply weren't there, any guards in none safe zones would hear you coming and keep their noses out of it (since they're only there to fight enemies and not prevent any scuffles, especially since we removed the CopBots from PP). Whereas if the zone line didn't exist as you moved into a safe zone (these things are supposed to be super secure, none violent areas not just magic no weapon zones), the guards would be doing their job and ensuring the area remains violence free by putting the combatants down.

The above thoughts, to me at least, would allow PvP to better flow across zone lines - be they into another fighting sector or a secure sector - but not remove inter zone travel from PvP. I personally don't think stopping people from leaving a zone altogether is the right thing to do. Fight or flight should always be a decision to be made by the individual, the flight side of the argument just shouldn't be such an advantage like it is now.

To be clear, the above would apply everywhere including out in the Wastelands. This would mean teams hiding in the Underground of an Outpost would need to sort themselves out and commit to 'going over the top'. Of course balance in PvP would need to consider these changes so fights last a bit longer naturally, without the inorganic extension zone whoring currently grants.

The above is my personal opinion and only intended to further the discussion, it's not a indication of intent by the team as a whole.

Cursed Shadow
28-08-13, 15:09
I read and understood your post, I don't think they should get removed either. Think of it like this, buffs only last a couple minutes and with the zoneline changes you won't be able to run back and get buffed again after that time is up, ppus logged off in safe zones become useful only for your initial entrance into a combat zone, after those few minutes if you're still in combat you can't run away and you're unbuffed.

I actually think removing buffs on zoning would make things even worse if you don't like ppus in every little fight, we'd end up with ppu players constantly healing, shielding and anting in every single encounter because almost every fight would be to the death.

I was just trying to drag a full explanation out of you.
It's an understandable counter-argument to my suggestion. You might be right, it could see more active PPU'ing in PvP, however, I personally believe there are more dual-loggers available than active PPUs in fights.
Additionally, if PPUs are more widely active in fights, those PPUs will be in a situation to debuff one another too, making it viable to kill them for once.

What do you think?

Cursed Shadow
28-08-13, 15:37
PvP (specifically not including PvE) should activate a flag on your character, which has a cool down period of Y seconds. If you zone into a safe zone (specifically a safe zone) guards in the zone should react to that PvP flag and shoot you.


Thanks for the input, I agree with your extension and suggestions.

I'm going to start to discuss on the "PVP Flag", as a duration would need to be defined for the PVP Flag (perhaps it lasts until you next zone?). You effectively have to wait until the sync cooldown ends to sync again (which would then remove the PVP flag) unless you continue to PVP, in which case, it remains.

My opinion is that anti-buffs and damage boosts should initialize the PVP flag too, as they are hostile actions.

hatmankh
28-08-13, 15:41
It's true there are currently more dual loggers than active ppus, this is because the game as it currently is heavily favors zone whoring. If that were to change as is being discussed here, then over time so would the active ppu to dual logger ratio change, players adapt to the game's balance whenever it is changed. If a weapon is buffed or nerfed you can see this with people changing their setups or even playing different classes that are now stronger due to the buff or nerf, it's reasonable to expect the same to apply here.

What do I think about active ppus becoming a part of pretty much every fight? Well, it kills the solo PvP, every fight becomes like an OP fight with big teams of PPUs and damage dealers. I don't want that to happen, I prefer variety in gameplay and I know not everyone likes group PvP or is even clanned.

William Antrim
28-08-13, 16:50
I like Triv's idea.

My own idea was going to be "give people a health hit for zoning into a safe zone" that way they would die if they were zone whoring. The problem with that is it would lead to EVEN more dual logged ppus just to rez people who died from synch laming. Not less people. The guards shooting the player in Triv's suggestion do the same thing. Therein lies the problem. The PP clubs would have even more PPUs logged there.

However if the pain of these deaths and the cost of getting "back into the action" was lowered greatly and Neocron's "down time between deaths" made more arcade-like and indeed more FPS like then it would serve to appeal to the types of gamers who yearn for this action. They are the ones who will come to nc to play it for the pvp. The thread I made discussing these changes details my thoughts more plainly. http://forum.neocron-game.com/showthread.php?152230-Possibly-changing-PVP-penalties
The LE players etc as Torg mentioned in that thread would be able to continue unopposed.


The PVE side of the community would also benefit if they so required it and so it would be good for all players.

If the cost of death was more easily managed and not such a ball ache I think less people would zone over the border.

I also think all safe zones should be removed in Pepper Park - except HQs. Club safezones need to be removed and guards need to attack ALL runners with weapons drawn regardless of faction.

If teams want to raid pepper park then the factions living there should have the chance to defend their turf.


If Neocron doesnt appeal to the pvp loving gamers then they will simply go and play other instant action style games where the cost of death is a few seconds of down time and then back into the action. More gamers these days are actually over school age than those in the school age bracket and do not have the time to spend hours like they used to. NC needs to adapt and change with this in mind in order to appeal to the mass market pvp-centric gamers.

Jodo
28-08-13, 18:13
I don't really want to influence this thread too much as I'm not a PvP'er. However I would ask the question: If something is decided upon to solve this issue (cooldown when zoning, debuffs, whatever) should this malus extend to the LE'd?
Obviously this will depend on the final solution but I would hope LE'd gameplay be affected as little as possible by PvP rulings.

Torg
28-08-13, 18:34
zoning isnt a problem at all. not even multiple, high-frequency zoning. the problem is rehealing/rebuffing in safety and then returning back to battle.
this could be helped by a timer to keep you inside a safezone for a minimum cooldown time. you know, like the city admin runs crazy and modifies the law enforcing field of plaza one to be even more law enforcing. you still could jump to plaza 2, fight and retreat on the last second. why not? you just couldnt do that numerous times in a row. i dont think we'd need that in other sectors, except OP underground entrys. which by some mysteriuos technical mistake, could undergo the very same law enforcement change of not letting people leave really soon.
this idea is not adressing zone-laming between non-safe zones, for a reason.
you would most probably think of 10 seconds cooldown time, but i could well imagine 30 or 60 as well. again: this is neocron, not unreal tournament.

William Antrim
28-08-13, 18:45
The only reason its not a problem on non-safe to non-safe zonelines is because people are too scared to fight on those zonelines. Believe me if there were zonelines like this where people fought then it would be a problem there too.

These changes if and when implemented need to apply to ALL zones, not just a carefully selected few. Running away is fine and working out the time it takes for the average runner to cross a zone line (20 seconds roughly? or maybe 30?) and then setting the debuff to less than that is the best possible course of action. Or making them cross an alternative zoneline but not back over the one they just crossed would be a beneficial condition if possible. This would allow genuine "running away" or "chasing" but not the constant lamer zoning back and forth.

Faid
28-08-13, 19:26
Ill propose a simple change that won't really effect any other classes or chars or even game mechanics.

Simply add slow opening doors to the major zone whoring zone lines. Something like the doors at the gates of NC or the doors in Proto lab. The major problem as I see it is that when someone realizes they are going to lose they turn tail and zone to safety often times right before being killed. So if we simply add doors that open from the top down and take maybe 3-5 seconds to open this should, at the very least, decrease people being able to zone quickly to safety. I don't know if it's possible to have the zone in point be beyond the doors so you don't have to wait after zoning in.

This shouldn't be too difficult to implement either I don't think. It wont mess anything up regarding buffs dropping, cooldowns, pvp flags and all that complicated stuff. This could at least be a fast easy semi-fix for now.

Drachenpaladin
28-08-13, 19:52
I'll just wait for seemless zoning :angel:

William Antrim
28-08-13, 19:57
Ill propose a simple change that won't really effect any other classes or chars or even game mechanics.

Simply add slow opening doors to the major zone whoring zone lines. Something like the doors at the gates of NC or the doors in Proto lab. The major problem as I see it is that when someone realizes they are going to lose they turn tail and zone to safety often times right before being killed. So if we simply add doors that open from the top down and take maybe 3-5 seconds to open this should, at the very least, decrease people being able to zone quickly to safety. I don't know if it's possible to have the zone in point be beyond the doors so you don't have to wait after zoning in.

This shouldn't be too difficult to implement either I don't think. It wont mess anything up regarding buffs dropping, cooldowns, pvp flags and all that complicated stuff. This could at least be a fast easy semi-fix for now.

Best idea yet. Make the Pussy Club and Club Veronique doors open in like 5 seconds. That would be good. Or turn the zones into fighting zones. So we can all pretend we are Eminem.

SilentEye
28-08-13, 20:36
Ill propose a simple change that won't really effect any other classes or chars or even game mechanics.

Simply add slow opening doors to the major zone whoring zone lines. Something like the doors at the gates of NC or the doors in Proto lab. The major problem as I see it is that when someone realizes they are going to lose they turn tail and zone to safety often times right before being killed. So if we simply add doors that open from the top down and take maybe 3-5 seconds to open this should, at the very least, decrease people being able to zone quickly to safety. I don't know if it's possible to have the zone in point be beyond the doors so you don't have to wait after zoning in.

This shouldn't be too difficult to implement either I don't think. It wont mess anything up regarding buffs dropping, cooldowns, pvp flags and all that complicated stuff. This could at least be a fast easy semi-fix for now.


Best idea yet. Make the Pussy Club and Club Veronique doors open in like 5 seconds. That would be good. Or turn the zones into fighting zones. So we can all pretend we are Eminem.
Totally agreed. Faid's solution is simplest and I think very clever!

Drachenpaladin
28-08-13, 20:42
But wouldn't that make zones one-way death traps? Zone in, realize 3 guys camp the sync with AoE, turn around and: Death-by-Waiting...

RogerRamjet
28-08-13, 21:54
Would there be a way to prevent people zoning into clubs whilst under fire? In an RP sense, if you were the bouncers in a club, you wouldn't let a load of blokes fighting each other into your bar now would you?

Trivaldi
28-08-13, 22:24
The below is my personal opinion and only intended to further the discussion, it's not a indication of intent by the team as a whole.

Would there be a way to prevent people zoning into clubs whilst under fire? In an RP sense, if you were the bouncers in a club, you wouldn't let a load of blokes fighting each other into your bar now would you?
As the idea of preventing people zoning for a variety of reasons is a heavy feature in this thread, it is not unreasonable to theorise that the same implementation could prevent zoning into sectors of a certain type.

The above is my personal opinion and only intended to further the discussion, it's not a indication of intent by the team as a whole.

nabbl
29-08-13, 09:58
Completely agree.

I wonder what you think about my suggestion of removing Third Party buffs when you sync into certain types of zones. e.g. PP1 is given a 'War Zone' type or something. Synching into that zone removes all third party buffs. Of course, your PPU friend can follow you in, but you can't multibox with a PPU in a safe zone.

Hey shadow,

Actually this is not a bad idea but it wouldn't solve the main problem. PPUs as a whole are strongly overpowered while weapons as a whole make too much damage.

PPU shields give a bonus of 30% to your resist. Together with foreign PPU buffs a PPU is mandatory in fights because the weapons do too much damage. Take the beretta as an example. Even Tanks drop after a few shots when not shielded.
You need a PPU so that fights are lasting longer and you get more fun out of the neocron pvp experience.
The solution for this problem is not to change buff behaviour when synching but to decrease the importancy of the PPU in combat situations.
If you wouldn't really need a PPU (enhancement is cool but why dual logging when you can have good fun without) you wouldn't bring one.

I think we have to seperate the PPU issues from the whole thing.
The discussed problem is constant safezone synching.
The PPU buffing problem is because of PPUs being too important in PvP.

SilentEye
29-08-13, 11:40
Would there be a way to prevent people zoning into clubs whilst under fire? In an RP sense, if you were the bouncers in a club, you wouldn't let a load of blokes fighting each other into your bar now would you?
If you zone into a new sector, you start behind the closed door. Opening the closed door to find people there means you can quickly run back through the zone line, as you are already behind the door.

This would prevent zone line camping.

Cursed Shadow
29-08-13, 12:12
If you zone into a new sector, you start behind the closed door. Opening the closed door to find people there means you can quickly run back through the zone line, as you are already behind the door.

This would prevent zone line camping.

Maybe I'm mistaken, but couldn't zoneline campers just hold said door open. This was the case in Neocron 2.1 when MB was the Zonewhore PVP area. People kept the door open. Some people did die, but infrequently.

nabbl
29-08-13, 12:32
This thing with the doors.

Do you know how many safezone sync possibilities we have where you can huddle into a safezone to prevent being killed?

There are like a hundred.
And you want to put DOORS on each of them?
Like in between Plaza 1/Plaza2 sync?
Or in between DRE HQ ?

And let's say there are doors. There would be ways to keep the doors open. Or you click on them, run another round and then sync.
People just would sync earlier which would make the fight last even less long.

Cursed Shadow
29-08-13, 12:48
This thing with the doors.

Do you know how many safezone sync possibilities we have where you can huddle into a safezone to prevent being killed?

There are like a hundred.
And you want to put DOORS on each of them?
Like in between Plaza 1/Plaza2 sync?
Or in between DRE HQ ?

And let's say there are doors. There would be ways to keep the doors open. Or you click on them, run another round and then sync.
People just would sync earlier which would make the fight last even less long.

When this was the case with MB, some people would regulate the doors and if you timed it just right you could shut the doors in someones face, forcing them into a trap.

If you're one of the people above, or reading this that thinks these doors are a good idea, I would strongly recommend you to take a couple of friends to MB or down into the Gaia Mines where there are doors right in front of the sync lines, and see if you can viably exploit the doors. Pretend to be a runner who is trying to run from one place to another and you come under attack before the door, do the doors open fast enough that you can choose not to PvP and escape the zone?

If you're gonna put slow opening doors in PvP sectors, I'd bet people will stop running through there altogether, because groups of people will make use of those slow doors to kill people who are harmlessly running through.

William Antrim
29-08-13, 12:58
So stop people from zoning within a few seconds of being damaged then? Say you take damage - anything except falling damage - and then for the next X seconds you cannot leave the zone? Same with heals possibly? Make it impossible to zone if a 3rd party heal is running I mean. It would allow people to self heal before zoning and it would also allow people to still buff before leaving a zone.

However a third party heal would imply some form of combat and therefore be ineligible to zone.

To counter any kind of issue with this could we also have self heals be able to overwrite foreign cast heals of any sort. To prevent griefing I mean. Or possibly have a self cast heal cancel the foreign heal?

Cursed Shadow
29-08-13, 13:09
So stop people from zoning within a few seconds of being damaged then? Say you take damage - anything except falling damage - and then for the next X seconds you cannot leave the zone? Same with heals possibly? Make it impossible to zone if a 3rd party heal is running I mean. It would allow people to self heal before zoning and it would also allow people to still buff before leaving a zone.


I don't think you have fully considered the implications of this.

Elaboration below:
- I could heal my opponent to prevent them from escaping.
- As a Spy/PE/Monk I can cast Heal Sanctum to prevent opponents Spy (including stealthed runners) from escaping.
- I could be harmlessly running through and somebody shoots me, your suggestion forces me into a PvP scenario without any option to escape.

nabbl
29-08-13, 13:35
This change should only affect runner which are SHOOTING! (and not getting shot)
If you get aggressive you should not be able to escape combat by synching after you've got your ass beaten.

Heals and Buffs have nothing to do with that.

Keep it simple but effective. The ruleset shouldn't be too complicated. We have to be able to understand them. New runners have to be able to understand them and Alduin has to be able to implement them.

Getting "Combat-Flagged" when shooting a weapon shouldn't be too hard to do.
Combining it with a seperate Timer for synching in to a levelzone (Sewer, Cave whatever) whe should be able to prevent zone whoring.

Decreasing the importancy of the PPU should be a part of the major balancing for Spart shouldn't it?
I am gonna trust the volunteer guys to do that right, as we had a lot of threads regarding the PPU.

Cursed Shadow
29-08-13, 13:45
This change should only affect runner which are SHOOTING! (and not getting shot)
If you get aggressive you should not be able to escape combat by synching after you've got your ass beaten.

Heals and Buffs have nothing to do with that.

Keep it simple but effective. The ruleset shouldn't be too complicated. We have to be able to understand them. New runners have to be able to understand them and Alduin has to be able to implement them.

Getting "Combat-Flagged" when shooting a weapon shouldn't be too hard to do.
Combining it with a seperate Timer for synching in to a levelzone (Sewer, Cave whatever) whe should be able to prevent zone whoring.

Decreasing the importancy of the PPU should be a part of the major balancing for Spart shouldn't it?
I am gonna trust the volunteer guys to do that right, as we had a lot of threads regarding the PPU.

I've already said I agreed with Triv's opinion, and I am glad that you do too.
They are not the simplest solutions, but they are effective and I cannot think of many ways to exploit them.

Rather than make this just an agreement:

I think people who are 'In PvP' *Flagged* should not be able to GR either. Discuss?

nabbl
29-08-13, 13:48
I think people who are 'In PvP' *Flagged* should not be able to GR either. Discuss?

Makes sense.

Alduin
30-08-13, 14:23
The below is my personal opinion and only intended to further the discussion, it's not a indication of intent by the team as a whole.

As for the doors approach: that does not solve the main problem in my opinion, the problem of switching back and forth between zonelines would still persist. Additionaly, placing doors at each and every inner city zone line would completely break the flow when traveling through the city. Apart from that, it would involve a lot of work placing doors everywhere.

Let me quote Trivaldi here, because I think he broke the problems down pretty well.

The problem, as we all know, arises when there is a CONSTANT back and forth over a single zone line. I like the quoted suggestion above as it means the combatant has to commit to zoning. If you zone down into a sewer, that's where the next X seconds of the action HAS to happen. If you jump into the next zone, predator is gonna follow prey and that's where it all does down. As long as the cool down is long enough, there would be enough time to get some action in before heading back to the original zone or the next one.

The second problem though, which the above alone wouldn't solve, is zone whoring with safe zones. Both combatants zone into a neighboring safe zone, then instead of heading straight back to a normal zone they'd have to sit around and share small talk for those X seconds.

My personal proposal for this would be to add additional behavior to guards, in conjunction with a zone entry cool down.

PvP (specifically not including PvE) should activate a flag on your character, which has a cool down period of Y seconds. If you zone into a safe zone (specifically a safe zone) guards in the zone should react to that PvP flag and shoot you. If you zone into any other zone type, only the zone entry cool down would be in play, allowing the fighting to continue as normal. This should discourage fights from hugging safe zone zone lines, but does not stop those safe zones being a starting point for inner city PvP. I'm aware being able to hop into the action is a very important issue we must consider for inner city PvP.

The first problem would be solved by a sync cooldown upon entering a zone. I like the idea very much and usually, in case you travel through the city, it would not break your "flow".

The second problem however I would tackle differently: don't allow the combatants to enter safe zones as long as they are flagged for pvp. Instead they should be bounced back by an invisible wall. The pvp flag should only be triggered in case you use aggressive stuff or in case you heal/buff someone who is flagged for pvp.

The above is my personal opinion and only intended to further the discussion, it's not a indication of intent by the team as a whole.

Dribble Joy
30-08-13, 17:00
I'm probably with nabbl on this. Being damaged, under 3rd party effects and similar properties out of your control will only bring up possibilities for abuse by other players. The old problem of n00b buffing is brought back to mind.

A 5 second cool-down (or whatever time we find to be appropriate) from making an aggressive action (Ie. firing a weapon, entering stealth) to before you can enter a safezone seems like the simplest and least abusable solution until there comes a time such that we can remove zoning completely.

aKe`cj
31-08-13, 21:06
PvP (specifically not including PvE) should activate a flag on your character, which has a cool down period of Y seconds. If you zone into a safe zone (specifically a safe zone) guards in the zone should react to that PvP flag and shoot you.

Personally, I think this is a really smart approach. Ideally it would involve a little polish on the GUI side of things (maybe something less prominent/intrusive than a buff/bonus indicator, but still visible when looked for).

I like this idea very much, because it does not further cripple the open world flow and freedom that players experience in Neocron.
It makes sense in terms of gameplay and also logically: Someone shooting other people could be dangerous.

Any sorts of gagging and crippling of movement, especially involving invisible walls or "you cannot sync for x seconds" type approaches will do more harm than good, for they impact everyone and draw even more attention to the "sync" that is already in its current form breaking flow when moving around.

One thing I would like to add is that it might be good if only the noweapon AI responds to the PvP-Attacker(!)-Flag.
That way you can still defend your base territory with a home advantage, while clubs and general safezones are less viable for sync whoring.

William Antrim
01-09-13, 10:16
So if it is possible to have a pvp attacker flag would that mean that you can have a pvp defender flag? Could this open up the possibility of receiving some form of bonus for beating your attacker if they try to jump you and you end up killing them? (I realise that this could be exploitable in some situations - financial recompense for example) but it might be nice to reward the defender for fighting back.

hatmankh
01-09-13, 14:55
I think the best thing they could do if a pvp defender flag is possible is to not penalize you if you kill someone that attacked you. No SL or faction hit for self defense. The only way you could exploit it is by running infront of people while they're fighting, trying to get them to shoot you by accident. If you manage that you get to fight them and if you win you won't lose SL, however if we make the pvp defender flag go away if the person doesn't attack you for 10 seconds it becomes much harder to exploit this. If the attacker just hits you once by accident and doesn't try to hit you again you'd have to kill them within 10 seconds, any longer and you would still recieve the regular penalties.

Sorry to go off topic a bit but this idea has been said many times before, we just didn't know if it could be done and if the work is being done on pvp flags anyway for this, then some more good might as well come of it.

Trivaldi
01-09-13, 17:21
The below is my personal opinion and only intended to further the discussion, it's not a indication of intent by the team as a whole.

One thing I would like to add is that it might be good if only the noweapon AI responds to the PvP-Attacker(!)-Flag.
That way you can still defend your base territory with a home advantage, while clubs and general safezones are less viable for sync whoring.
This is something I'd considered going into in my original post but felt it was getting into the realms of TL;DR. I agree, only guards who react to drawn weapons should behave like this. Regular faction guards should stick to simply killing their enemies. This would make raiding (and more importantly defending) locations work correctly, with guards focusing on the right people.

The below is my personal opinion and only intended to further the discussion, it's not a indication of intent by the team as a whole.

William Antrim
02-09-13, 09:44
If you have the capacity to make this work it would revolutionize the way PvP in nc works. Roleplay would go through the roof too. It could be the single best thing about nc.

nabbl
02-09-13, 10:33
As I think that Trivs ideas are very good and guards would make sense in safezones to prevent low hp - evade synching I am still all for blocking zone whoring on Levelareas.

Synching in and out of sewers constantly to evade fire and heal yourself can't be a viable option.

Trivaldi
02-09-13, 11:09
The below is my personal opinion and only intended to further the discussion, it's not a indication of intent by the team as a whole.


I am still all for blocking zone whoring on Levelareas.

Synching in and out of sewers constantly to evade fire and heal yourself can't be a viable option.
While I agree with aKe`cj - that preventing zoning makes the jarring experience of zoning more intrusive on the flow of movement - I still believe the zone entry cool down is the best option in this situation. As I said in my original post this would mean (if they decided to do so) players would have to commit to zoning during PvP, as the rest of the fight would likely occur over that zone line.

The decision of Fight or Flight remains firmly with the player, the only difference being they have to flee through zones and not run around in circles in the same 10 feet of gameworld as they do at the moment. This, for me, is a vital point. We cannot force people to stay in a zone with their back to an invisible wall and die. That is just stupid.

Preventing people from zoning at all (be that to just dungeon, safe or all zone types) is a very bad way to solve the issue. Allowing people to zone but not do so constantly to abuse the mechanic, is probably our best bet to resolve the problem in the current architecture.

The above is my personal opinion and only intended to further the discussion, it's not a indication of intent by the team as a whole.

Cursed Shadow
02-09-13, 11:36
The below is my personal opinion and only intended to further the discussion, it's not a indication of intent by the team as a whole.

This is something I'd considered going into in my original post but felt it was getting into the realms of TL;DR. I agree, only guards who react to drawn weapons should behave like this. Regular faction guards should stick to simply killing their enemies. This would make raiding (and more importantly defending) locations work correctly, with guards focusing on the right people.

The below is my personal opinion and only intended to further the discussion, it's not a indication of intent by the team as a whole.

This raises the scenario:

I am a CA runner, my opponent is a Tsunami runner.
We do battle in PP1, the enemy is low on health and runs into the Tsunami HQ (thus activating his zone-entry cooldown, because he has a PVP flag).
I could follow him, but the Tsunami guards are going to punish me, and I will also get my zone-entry cooldown, preventing me from escape.

I like the RP aspects of this. I was a CA in Pepper Park, of course I'm going to run into people who aren't happy to see me.
If I'm beating someone and they retreat to the safety of their Faction HQ (Fortress) then I should know better than to follow that mouse, into that hole.

This does open up the question as to what we do about inter-faction feuds where two Tsunami Runners can still zone whore along their HQ zoneline and fight, without being penalized by the guards.

I think that could be acceptable, and kind of makes sense from an RP point of view.

Additionally, and this isn't my opinion, but is an additional step that could be taken.
The PVP flag could be aware of all factions that you have attacked during the time in which your PVP Flag activates.
Thus when two Tsunami runners run for refuge within the Tsunami HQ, they are met with force, after all, inter-faction quarrels will not be tolerated in the HQ?

I'd really like to hear peoples views on the above points.

nabbl
02-09-13, 11:45
There are two different kind of synchs anyway:

We have zonelines where you have to actively click to enter a zone.
And we have zonelines where you can just can run through.

Zoneline #1 is predestined for Timers. When you sync into a levelzone you have to commit to that zone for X seconds.
But it would be a gamebreaker to implement the same behaviour for Zoneline #2 as it would feel totally uncomfortable.

Guards in safezones which directly shoot on sight on PvP-flagged players would be awesome.

aKe`cj
02-09-13, 11:47
As I think that Trivs ideas are very good and guards would make sense in safezones to prevent low hp - evade synching I am still all for blocking zone whoring on Levelareas.

Synching in and out of sewers constantly to evade fire and heal yourself can't be a viable option.

I have never really seen this as an issue that needed fixing.

If a player zones into a cave and finds a bunch of crawlers nibbling on his legs when he wakes up on the other side, I would assume it to be a rather frustrating experience if the game was to further cripple his abilities to master that situation. It is not uncommon that a damage dealer will try and clear that entrance, involving the sync in/out of that area to heal up. This is a micro challenge for this player which will keep him busy, entertained and may be a rewarding experience if he manages to stay alive and advance. I really dont see how this has a negative effect on anyone else or on the game balance.

Solo-PvE has been a strong point in NC and that also included the tricky part of soloing dangerous caves/areas without a PPU-bugplutt (and no, I do not refer to or endorse people abusing safespots and the like to solo caves - which is a very different issue imo)

Cursed Shadow
02-09-13, 12:16
I have never really seen this as an issue that needed fixing.

If a player zones into a cave and finds a bunch of crawlers nibbling on his legs when he wakes up on the other side, I would assume it to be a rather frustrating experience if the game was to further cripple his abilities to master that situation. It is not uncommon that a damage dealer will try and clear that entrance, involving the sync in/out of that area to heal up. This is a micro challenge for this player which will keep him busy, entertained and may be a rewarding experience if he manages to stay alive and advance. I really dont see how this has a negative effect on anyone else or on the game balance.

Solo-PvE has been a strong point in NC and that also included the tricky part of soloing dangerous caves/areas without a PPU-bugplutt (and no, I do not refer to or endorse people abusing safespots and the like to solo caves - which is a very different issue imo)

I believe nabbl was referring to people using levelling area synch lines to evade PVP, not PVE.
If the player has a PVP Flag they should either be prevented from entering sewers etc, or should be followable and killable without a loss of soul light or sympathy.

nabbl
02-09-13, 12:17
I believe nabbl was referring to people using levelling area synch lines to evade PVP, not PVE.
If the player has a PVP Flag they should either be prevented from entering sewers etc, or should be followable and killable without a loss of soul light or sympathy.

Thx for clarifying. This is exactly what I meant.

William Antrim
02-09-13, 17:16
I think mob damage should definitely NOT trigger any kind of flag. I guess thats what Ake'cj is worried about. I like the idea of flags though, anything to stop the cowardly twats running.

aKe`cj
02-09-13, 17:28
I think mob damage should definitely NOT trigger any kind of flag. I guess thats what Ake'cj is worried about. I like the idea of flags though, anything to stop the cowardly twats running.

From nabbl's original post it was not clear that any such sync policy would be limited to PvP context only (and more importantly: how so), thus me voicing my concerns.

I agree that this might also a case where it would be useful to have a PvP-Attack-Flag to allow for a more granular ruleset.
Something that has been suggested countless times over the years albeit in a slightly different context: smarter SL rules. (cases that allow players to purposely paint a flag on others, like AoE should be considered though)

Cursed Shadow
02-09-13, 17:40
I think mob damage should definitely NOT trigger any kind of flag. I guess thats what Ake'cj is worried about. I like the idea of flags though, anything to stop the cowardly twats running.

Yeah, that's been discussed already. I'd suggest reading back, if you have the time to, although there have been a good few lengthy posts.

We could do with a recap of all of the ideas proposed thus far really.

Britney
02-09-13, 22:04
Remove: Underground lock, safezones. Add one safezone that isn't connected to anything pvp-able.

xanu
02-09-13, 22:08
Mess with the best, Die like the rest.

Neallys
02-09-13, 22:22
I have read a bit of the answers but are we discussing Safe zones or zone whoring? To me zone whoring only means that once low HP the player will sync continuously back and forth to prevent being killed. You can put guards into safezones but I doubt this is going to fix everything, a "further" spawn point away from zoneline would be an answer, but I'm guessing that's out of the equation.


Regarding Safezones, one of the only times I have seen it not happening was when there were 2 communities hubs PRO/ANTI-NC. As someone said to me a few months ago, we don't have the right player base to fix this. But perhaps if we focus on balancing and then advertise like it is planned it would be possible? That if we would actually go back to that system, which doesn't make much sense RP-wise and kind of breaks the point of the whole faction system we have had for years.


Also, people feel like they need to be around safezones because they need to farm endless hours to get things from PvE. Make PvE easier, and then you will have a bunch of people willing to risk it. I don't know, I'm just throwing ideas out there.

Dribble Joy
02-09-13, 23:47
The real issue is non-safe to safe zone whoring. A la P1/2 or MB1/MB entrance back in the day.

For non-safe to non-safe I don't have a huge issue with. Non-safe to Safe I do. As I said before, an 'aggression' flag after firing a weapon preventing zoning to a safe zone seems best.

A cool down after zoning will not stop people leaving a fight. If anything they will seek to get the optimum abilities before zoning to a non-safe zone, which will only make their reliance on PPUs on the other side greater.

William Antrim
03-09-13, 10:18
The biggest variable is the community. They have to accept it across the board, not just the handful of people discussing it here.

Trivaldi
03-09-13, 11:22
The biggest variable is the community. They have to accept it across the board, not just the handful of people discussing it here.
Like all other changes this will of course first land on our Public Test Server Vedeena, before heading to Titan.

I've added a news story regarding this discussion on the Neocron Launcher (as well as on our Social Media presence), in order to ensure everyone gets their say. Obviously we cannot implement everything discussed here but we really want to ensure we can consider as many options as possible. That way we can find the best way to deal with this issue. If you're talking to people in game about this, direct them here so their thoughts can be captured.

Agent L
03-09-13, 13:54
The below is my personal opinion and only intended to further the discussion, it's not a indication of intent by the team as a whole.


I've cropped this quote right down to highlight this specific point. To me this seems like a reasonably strong solution. In my mind moving to another zone in order to escape is not a huge problem, that bit makes perfect sense in any combat situation. Assuming its a one way trip it's the same as running around a corner in a single zone, just with a moment of loading thrown in.

The problem, as we all know, arises when there is a CONSTANT back and forth over a single zone line.
The above is my personal opinion and only intended to further the discussion, it's not a indication of intent by the team as a whole.
To further discourage back-and forth zoning, this mallus should stack. Maybe even in geometric rate (eg: 2 seconds + what you already had when zoning*2 ). This way most players will hardly notice the 2 seconds while zonewhores will build up massive penalty quickly.

I think this is both simple and non-disruptive enough to give it a try alone.

Trivaldi
03-09-13, 14:12
The below is my personal opinion and only intended to further the discussion, it's not a indication of intent by the team as a whole.


To further discourage back-and forth zoning, this mallus should stack. Maybe even in geometric rate (eg: 2 seconds + what you already had when zoning*2 ). This way most players will hardly notice the 2 seconds while zonewhores will build up massive penalty quickly.

I think this is both simple and non-disruptive enough to give it a try alone.
If the player is unable to zone due to the cool down, how would they zone in order to increase the length of that cool down?

The above is my personal opinion and only intended to further the discussion, it's not a indication of intent by the team as a whole.

Agent L
03-09-13, 14:23
I think I misunderstood the concept you were talking about.

I thought about tackling the problem from entirely opposite side: instead of preventing zoning after using a weapon, something like prevent using a weapon after zoning.

I know that it takes the fight-or-flight decision away from players, but as already stated here trapping ppl in a zone is easily exploitable by a team of gankers. So it's less damaging to leave the flight option always open.

That's why I talked about it being low-profile solution, aimed at taking the fun away from whores by making them powerless rather than forcing them to fight to death.

Cursed Shadow
03-09-13, 15:05
I think I misunderstood the concept you were talking about.

I thought about tackling the problem from entirely opposite side: instead of preventing zoning after using a weapon, something like prevent using a weapon after zoning.

I know that it takes the fight-or-flight decision away from players, but as already stated here trapping ppl in a zone is easily exploitable by a team of gankers. So it's less damaging to leave the flight option always open.

That's why I talked about it being low-profile solution, aimed at taking the fun away from whores by making them powerless rather than forcing them to fight to death.


No, so far the most popular discussions were:

- If you shoot/perform hostile action on another character, you gain a status/flag which means you're IN PVP
- If you zone whilst under the status/flag IN PVP, then you receive a mallus preventing you from zoning into another zone for a certain cooldown (perhaps 10 seconds).

Other suggestions which are kind of in discussion, but have been debated to a lesser extent are:

- If you go from a PVP sector to a Safe sector, should armed guards such as copbots attack the IN PVP flagged characters, in addition to their cooldown which prevents them from zoning or using the GR.
- If they zone from a PVP sector into their own Faction HQ, would any additional mallus as above be applied, or just the cooldown.
- If a player has the PVP flag and escapes to a PVE area such as a Sewer, and they are followed and killed, will the SL and Symp loss of the sector apply, or a reduced penalty because it is a continuation of a fight that begun elsewhere.
- Placing doors/zones/protection status after zoning into a sector (However this was discouraged as an option by the Dev team, and for quite valid reasons.)


On a separate note, and to further Dribble Joy's discussion:


A cool down after zoning will not stop people leaving a fight. If anything they will seek to get the optimum abilities before zoning to a non-safe zone, which will only make their reliance on PPUs on the other side greater.

What if we made it so that if a PPU cast third party buffs onto a player who had the IN PVP flag, then they also gained that flag by proxy. This would discourage multiboxers/PPUs from intervening.

If this is going to be viable, Copbots need to have their damage improved, and their aim should be made accurate and to pass through other characters, otherwise this again could be exploited to kill runners in safe zones by using the Copbot's aggro as a tool.

Chuck Norris
03-09-13, 15:57
after attacking someone, the player who damaged someone receives a debuff.

If you zone while this debuff is on you it will give you another stackable debuff that works like a "stackable DoT with a count down timer".

So if someone is continually Synching after they were the aggressor they could gain SI for each time they synched/had a stacked "dot debuff".
The SI would make them all around weaker and could not pk as indiscriminately, it would cause griefers to min max for lower tier'd weaponry In order to chase someone down (who is not returning fire and running for their life) through multiple synchs, just to gun them down for no good game reason, other then their own immature entertainment

every time they'd have to chase someone down who doesnt fight back they'd gain for example 15-25 % SI as lng as they have the intial debuf

So after attacking someone they get "attacker debuff" that does nothing in itself

William Antrim
03-09-13, 17:08
What if we made it so that if a PPU cast third party buffs onto a player who had the IN PVP flag, then they also gained that flag by proxy. This would discourage multiboxers/PPUs from intervening.



How would that work if the PPU is logged afk (or on the other client) in the safe zone? He would get the flag and then what? Be insta-gibbed by the guards in said Safezone? Or would you use some other punishment?

What do Copbots have to do with zonelaming? I thought that their job was only to enforce the law on negative SL or do you mean faction guards or others "defending" the turf in some safezones.

The lines of discussion are blurring a little for me now with the 2 or 3 subdiscussions that have cropped up. I am not having a dig here, just seeking clarification.

Cursed Shadow
03-09-13, 18:07
How would that work if the PPU is logged afk (or on the other client) in the safe zone? He would get the flag and then what? Be insta-gibbed by the guards in said Safezone? Or would you use some other punishment?

What do Copbots have to do with zonelaming? I thought that their job was only to enforce the law on negative SL or do you mean faction guards or others "defending" the turf in some safezones.

The lines of discussion are blurring a little for me now with the 2 or 3 subdiscussions that have cropped up. I am not having a dig here, just seeking clarification.

No, I am simply repeating and expanding on what was said by Trivaldi:

The below is my personal opinion and only intended to further the discussion, it's not a indication of intent by the team as a whole.

The second problem though, which the above alone wouldn't solve, is zone whoring with safe zones. Both combatants zone into a neighboring safe zone, then instead of heading straight back to a normal zone they'd have to sit around and share small talk for those X seconds.

My personal proposal for this would be to add additional behavior to guards, in conjunction with a zone entry cool down.

PvP (specifically not including PvE) should activate a flag on your character, which has a cool down period of Y seconds. If you zone into a safe zone (specifically a safe zone) guards in the zone should react to that PvP flag and shoot you. If you zone into any other zone type, only the zone entry cool down would be in play, allowing the fighting to continue as normal. This should discourage fights from hugging safe zone zone lines, but does not stop those safe zones being a starting point for inner city PvP. I'm aware being able to hop into the action is a very important issue we must consider for inner city PvP.

From a RP perspective - if you will excuse such bad language ;) - this makes a lot of sense. If the zone line simply weren't there, any guards in none safe zones would hear you coming and keep their noses out of it (since they're only there to fight enemies and not prevent any scuffles, especially since we removed the CopBots from PP). Whereas if the zone line didn't exist as you moved into a safe zone (these things are supposed to be super secure, none violent areas not just magic no weapon zones), the guards would be doing their job and ensuring the area remains violence free by putting the combatants down.

The above is my personal opinion and only intended to further the discussion, it's not a indication of intent by the team as a whole.

Copbots protect the city sectors, and this should include protecting the city from runners who are actively fighting one another.

My point about PPU's casting third party buffs on runners with an *In PVP* flag would mean that they would be shot by Copbots, however they would only receive the PVP flag, they would not have the cooldown (because they have not yet zoned with a PVP flag) which prevents them from zoning. They would however, be trapped in the next zone for X seconds, if they zone to escape the Copbot fire.

ulx
03-09-13, 20:03
I plead for 10-30-s Countdown timer after entering a Zone b4 able to join the next, but it shouldnt affect normal playing, so smaller zones will Need a smaller countdown.
Spies shouldnt be able to Zone stealthed, and there should be a 10s wear-off after using stealth b4 able to synch.
This would also fix a few grinding exploits (like running past the small Mobs at a cave entry to get to the very last room in Caves to drone the bossmobs and would make it nearly impossible to get to Doy Tunnels lvl 3 by stealthing!)
NO wiping of any Buffs, because aoeing UG will take even more fun out of OPing and will always benefit the Group with the most ppus!

There should be one exception for Rejoining Sectors.

Runners should be able to rejoin the Zone they came from if the Zone he/she is currently in is a safezone. After entering the pvp Zone he has to stay there until the timer runs out again.

edit: Besides, since Opfighting Teams have to Stay like 30 seconds outside of the UG, times between hacking layers should be either set to 90s or 120s. I think that will also allow more and faster show-ups of the attacked Groups since the op isnt already gone b4 theyre set up. Maybe there will even be less ninjaing...

Duran
04-09-13, 06:29
inside city sectors is a cooldown ok, i think 20 secs be enough

Agent L
04-09-13, 11:38
I plead for 10-30-s Countdown timer after entering a Zone b4 able to join the next, but it shouldnt affect normal playing, so smaller zones will Need a smaller countdown.
This will kill people in wastelands so it does affect normal playing very much.

Typical scenario: You zone in wastes (a very large zone), look around and see 6 Hoverbots above you.
How it works so far: You zone back and seek another entry point.
Your idea: You're dead.

This is also what happens when zoning from OZ station to the Outzone, because of the Dragon Wrath Members often left near zone line. So above scenario applies for city sectors as well.


Mind that if you travel diagonally on a quad you also change zones very fast. If you zone in a corner, there is about 1s between zoning.

Agent L
04-09-13, 11:44
Idea: ban some buffs (eg shields/def/absorber, resist and combat boosters, *maybe* heals) from safezones, just like normal weapons. (Maybe only foreign cast) This would certainly fix the "hop into safety to recieve buffs from afk ppu" problem.

What are cons of such ban?

Cursed Shadow
04-09-13, 11:55
I still think suggestions need to be specifically oriented to a PvP Situation. The topic is about Zone Whoring, which to my understanding is specifically: getting into a fight, then zoning back and forth repeatedly, or into a safe zone to avoid death.

I do not think people should be getting wires crossed and applying any behaviour discussed so far to standard game play such as crossing the wastes, unless you are specifically referring to a PvP scenario. This change should affect PvP only, not casual game behaviour such as driving through the wastes or running around in OZ.

What there has not been enough discussion on, is Outpost Fighting behavior, and whether people believe Trivaldi's suggestion of a PvP Flag would remedy the situation. For example, should PPUs be vulnerable for these 'PvP' flags or not. (Say if they Damage boost, De-buff or Anti-heal another runner)

If anyone is reading this and simply agrees with a suggestion that has been made (and therefore doesn't post), please reply to let us know which suggestions are agreeable to you, that helps everyone and guides this thread forward in the right direction.

Agent L
04-09-13, 17:32
I think we've skipped the most important part of any problem-solving process: identifying problems. There is lot of confusion even about what "zonewhoring" is. Can we prepare exhaustive list of behaviors considered zonewhoring? Then we could work it one by one and analyze solutions in context of every scenario.

Some of them I believe are not even confined to the zone line: like holstering a weapon and hiding behind a copbot. This was sidestepped by removing most cops from PP - which resulted in ppl running to the nearest cop: in next zone.

Now if generic solution would be cops shooting everyone with PvP flag, it'd also apply to cops holding guard on Plaza side of PP/Plaza zoneline - no more zoning malluses necessary here other than stream of hot plasma from CPR.

To complete the chaos and digressions in this post I have one simple and ready to use solution: post Storms on PP side of zoneline.
I believe cops were stationed there at some point in time, and got removed exactly because players wanted to hug the zoneline.

Torg
04-09-13, 18:03
lets be serious: is there any real problem with zone-laming outside of outposts (underground entrance)? in fact anyone complaining about lost kills because someone else jumped back into plaza 1 safety should be pointed and laughed at (my opinion). if you want to duel sans zone-laming, dont go to plaza 2. problem solved. and if someone else flees from you in the wastes by constant frequent zone-crossing, he or she might just be better than you when it comes to using game mechanics. i think we should concentrate on op fights and how to improve them.

ulx
04-09-13, 18:35
This will kill people in wastelands so it does affect normal playing very much.

Typical scenario: You zone in wastes (a very large zone), look around and see 6 Hoverbots above you.
How it works so far: You zone back and seek another entry point.
Your idea: You're dead.
Mind that if you travel diagonally on a quad you also change zones very fast. If you zone in a corner, there is about 1s between zoning.
This is also what happens when zoning from OZ station to the Outzone, because of the Dragon Wrath Members often left near zone line. So above scenario applies for city sectors as well.



Its not like i didnt take that into consideration, Yes, there are dangerous zones, if you are on foot you might still die and imo thats tough luck ppl have to deal with, with a vehicle, ur even better off just stepping on it than turning the car (takes forever) and zoning back.
And how often did ppl get stuck in synch on a vehicle when driving diagonal with 2 or 3 sudden synchs...how about u just adjust your driving? Too tough is it? Driving less diagonal? xD
Or just free vehicles from the timer, its impossible to zone whore with a vehicle anyway xD
But still, i dont see your point, i havent died yet in OZ too and i actually own noob apps in OZ1. Especially if the wrath members are at the subway stairway the next corner to safety is not far. Its not like theyre spread all over OZ xD

edit: And this will improve opfighting since ppl have to give at least a 30 seconds fight

hatmankh
04-09-13, 19:12
I plead for 10-30-s Countdown timer after entering a Zone b4 able to join the next, but it shouldnt affect normal playing, so smaller zones will Need a smaller countdown.
Spies shouldnt be able to Zone stealthed, and there should be a 10s wear-off after using stealth b4 able to synch.
This would also fix a few grinding exploits (like running past the small Mobs at a cave entry to get to the very last room in Caves to drone the bossmobs and would make it nearly impossible to get to Doy Tunnels lvl 3 by stealthing!)
NO wiping of any Buffs, because aoeing UG will take even more fun out of OPing and will always benefit the Group with the most ppus!

There should be one exception for Rejoining Sectors.

Runners should be able to rejoin the Zone they came from if the Zone he/she is currently in is a safezone. After entering the pvp Zone he has to stay there until the timer runs out again.

edit: Besides, since Opfighting Teams have to Stay like 30 seconds outside of the UG, times between hacking layers should be either set to 90s or 120s. I think that will also allow more and faster show-ups of the attacked Groups since the op isnt already gone b4 theyre set up. Maybe there will even be less ninjaing...

These suggestions go much further than addressing zonewhoring and negatively impact the rest of the game, reading your post it seems like you'd prefer the zones didn't exist and are trying to force people to behave how they would if there were no zones at all. There are several problems with this, one being that if there weren't any zones you'd be able to see what dangers lie 10 feet in front of you and if you're trying to avoid death wouldn't go there to begin with. Another problem is every time you try to zone and run into this zoning block timer you're thrown out of the game and it all starts to seem plastic, in other words it makes no sense at all and breaks suspension of disbelief, not to mention how annoying this would be while trying to travel in the city or out in the wastes.

The no zoning while stealthed idea obviously hurts solo PvE and spies a lot, this sounds like something you'd hear a year ago when drone exploiting was still possible and prevalent, it no longer is. PvE is messed up at the moment so its best to save suggestions that would drastically change things like this until after the team have gotten around to balancing PvE. It's no good looking at how PvE is right now and using that to base your suggestions because everything you see now can and likely will be changed, let's see what the team have planned for this first.

Bottom line, this thread is about zonewhoring only, maybe I'm misunderstanding that term but I believe it applies only to people zoning constantly in PvP to escape death. If you want to talk about PvE and have suggestions I wouldn't do it right now but if you must, then make another thread for it.

DIABLO666
07-09-13, 00:07
The problem is right now zone line whoring is an essential part of pvp, people might not like it but lets imagine a world with no zone line whoring...

You zone out to find a full OP team of enemies waiting for you and die obviously VERY quickly. You think to yourself, should I go back and try to kill some? NO cos you have no chance to escape really

You go for the intention of having some fun fights, you go out once, fight for 2mins and die, you then spend 15-20mins getting pokes rebuying armour and waiting for SI before finally going back for another 2mins of fighting OR you win and wait 20 mins for the other guy to get back for another 2mins of fighting.

As for ppus at zone lines... well thats a issue that needs fixing in an entirely different thread which to put it simply would be based around ppu buffs being about 50% less effective (or perhaps even less) when used on other people. Yes I know that ppu buffs used on themself already are better but its still to much when used on other people. As I've stated a million times if you have a 2v2 fight, 2 tanks vs 1 tank 1 ppu the tank and ppu will win about 90% of the time as the tank with the ppu will take almost no damage and the other 2 will be taking a TON of damage thanks to damage booster. In a perfect world a 2v2 fight 2 tanks vs 1 tank 1 ppu would be a 50/50 affair. To put it bluntly, the outcome of fights right now are almost completely decided by the number of ppus per side. this is dumb.

ulx
07-09-13, 07:22
These suggestions go much further than addressing zonewhoring and negatively impact the rest of the game, reading your post it seems like you'd prefer the zones didn't exist and are trying to force people to behave how they would if there were no zones at all. There are several problems with this, one being that if there weren't any zones you'd be able to see what dangers lie 10 feet in front of you and if you're trying to avoid death wouldn't go there to begin with. Another problem is every time you try to zone and run into this zoning block timer you're thrown out of the game and it all starts to seem plastic, in other words it makes no sense at all and breaks suspension of disbelief, not to mention how annoying this would be while trying to travel in the city or out in the wastes.

The no zoning while stealthed idea obviously hurts solo PvE and spies a lot, this sounds like something you'd hear a year ago when drone exploiting was still possible and prevalent, it no longer is. PvE is messed up at the moment so its best to save suggestions that would drastically change things like this until after the team have gotten around to balancing PvE. It's no good looking at how PvE is right now and using that to base your suggestions because everything you see now can and likely will be changed, let's see what the team have planned for this first.

Bottom line, this thread is about zonewhoring only, maybe I'm misunderstanding that term but I believe it applies only to people zoning constantly in PvP to escape death. If you want to talk about PvE and have suggestions I wouldn't do it right now but if you must, then make another thread for it.

Yes, my Solution is a blunt one.
And yes, you mostly dont know whats waiting after a Zone line, welcome to Neocron.
The Problem with zoning and the timer has been mentioned, why the f*ck do u bring it up again?

Spies with an Obliterator can literally go anywhere. Caves like Doy Tunnels ARENT MEANT TO BE SOLO'ed! Get that in ur head
besides, ist just sth that would get fixed along the way but it is rather meant to even the chances a just a Little if he has to wait 10 seconds after stealth wore off b4 zoning, but yes, it will be a big bother to all the gimped pvp Setups with just a jones stealth! (and i find that a good Thing=P)

Those were great times when ppl had open fights=P

ulx
07-09-13, 07:46
The problem is right now zone line whoring is an essential part of pvp, people might not like it but lets imagine a world with no zone line whoring...

You zone out to find a full OP team of enemies waiting for you and die obviously VERY quickly. You think to yourself, should I go back and try to kill some? NO cos you have no chance to escape really

You go for the intention of having some fun fights, you go out once, fight for 2mins and die, you then spend 15-20mins getting pokes rebuying armour and waiting for SI before finally going back for another 2mins of fighting OR you win and wait 20 mins for the other guy to get back for another 2mins of fighting.

As for ppus at zone lines... well thats a issue that needs fixing in an entirely different thread which to put it simply would be based around ppu buffs being about 50% less effective (or perhaps even less) when used on other people. Yes I know that ppu buffs used on themself already are better but its still to much when used on other people. As I've stated a million times if you have a 2v2 fight, 2 tanks vs 1 tank 1 ppu the tank and ppu will win about 90% of the time as the tank with the ppu will take almost no damage and the other 2 will be taking a TON of damage thanks to damage booster. In a perfect world a 2v2 fight 2 tanks vs 1 tank 1 ppu would be a 50/50 affair. To put it bluntly, the outcome of fights right now are almost completely decided by the number of ppus per side. this is dumb.

Alright, ur actually telling me that you nor your clan ever sends a Scout first b4 going to the OP and die? Well thats actually not a Problem of my solution but your Problem not to collect Intel b4 joining the fight, so lmao!
Spies would still be able to stealth away (right after zoning out) and Report to the clan, while they can decide to fight or not. Even if the Scout dies he can tell his ppl about how many ppl are there. cmon, thats Basic knowledge in NC.
And Dont tell me u e.g. liked being just 4 against 10 just because u could always Zone back to the UG? Do u call that Fun? srsly?!
And as i said b4 dont touch buffs. Removing them after zoning or anything similar will just make aoe'ing more common, u guys so hot for being aoed in p2 or at any OP when leaving the UG? Gone mad?!

Seems like only carebears and/or griefers talking here who want to Keep things as is.
Zone whoring is not an essential Feature. Ist just a nowadays commonly used Thing which got even favoured by several changes they did to the game way back

edit: Others having buttplug ppus/Medics is not only an issue in this game. Just get your own buttplug or deal with it...

Agent L
07-09-13, 11:26
In current situation (removal of turrets), zonewhoring the UG is pretty much the only advantage left for defenders...
So is it really a problem, or just a makeshift solution to entirely different problem?

Sangree
10-09-13, 20:21
my english is bad i hope ist same imprtantly with german

da ich finde, dass man den runnern oder in diesem fall den flüchtenden nicht die Möglichkeit nehmen DARF wege zu gehen oder wegzulaufen, wie die Zone zu verlassen.
die zonegrenze oder auch gullideckel auszunutzen und sie in schleife zu benutzen sollte man anders zu unterbinden wissen.

vielleicht hilft eine art sync-zähler, wenn man innerhalb 60 Sekunden 12 mal gezoned ist kann man für 10 Minuten die Zone nicht verlassen als strafe.

da es so dazu kommen kann, dass sein verfolger ein sync mehr hatte zu anfang und ihn deshalb nicht verfolgen kann, sollte diese 10 Minuten sperre auch nur dann in kraft treten, wenn gleichzeitig sein Gegner im gleichen Sektor ist.

ist allerdings sehr schwer umzusetzen. eventuell hätte ich da noch eine Idee.
das Problem ist ja nicht, zum flüchten den sync zu benutzen um Richtung safezone zu flüchten. sondern innerhalb kürzester zeit so oft wie möglich zu syncen damit das life hochregg. eine strafe könnte sein, dass nach 12x syncen innerhalb 60 Sekunden der Transport auf null fällt und Agilität und atlethic ebenfalls für 5 Minuten auf null fällt und man zusätzlich in de rmitte des sectors (spawnpunkt) spawnt, man aber immernoch syncen kann.

da das auch alles sehr schwierig ist würd ich nach dem shema (Brieftasche) gehen, 12 mal syncen binnen 60 Sekunden und eine Warnung zeigt an, dass pro weiteren sync der soullight um 1 fällt. nach 10 Minuten wird der negative Effekt natürlich aufgelöst. Bin mal gespannt wer sich damit ins minus schiesst.

man könnte aber auch den sync den man überqueert hat für 30 Sekunden sperren und er kann einfach nicht zurück und wenn innerhalb 3 Minuten 4 mal die gleiche Zone grenze überqueert wurde kann man diese auch für ne Minute speren. da ist es halt schwierig, dass man nicht ausversehen den verfolger straft, das negativ soullight bestrafungs System fänd ich besser.

Sangree
10-09-13, 20:37
Mir ist noch eine gute Idee eingefallen.
Angenommen man synct öfter als 30 mal innerhalb 3 Minuten, dann bekommst du einen soullight zähler.
Das bekommst du als verfolger natürlich auch, da du den gejagten ja hinterherkommen willst aber du läufst als verfolger ja nicht Gefahr zu sterben.
wenn also der verfolgte und der verfolger jeweils 50 mal syncen haben beide ein negativ soullight zähler von 50 und derjenige der stirbt, verliert dann 50 soullight, derjenige der verfolgt hat wird der negativ soullight zähler von 50 nach 10 Minuten wieder resettet.

so kann man verhindern, dass der dominante jäger die gleichen Konsequenzen trägt wie der gejagte, der das sync-whoring ausnutzt.

Ghostface_Speak
12-09-13, 22:01
way too complicated,overthink this again

Torg
12-09-13, 22:48
way too complicated,overthink this againwhat he said.

nabbl
13-09-13, 10:14
what he said.

what they said.

It has to be a very slick and easy and not overly complicated solution.

And we need solutions for more than one problem.

#1 problem: safe zone synching
#2 problem: zone whoring (back and forth)

Faid
13-09-13, 18:47
Doors :p Oh wait I forgot that it would be impossible for doors to be added to the 2 spots where people actually fight...

Drachenpaladin
13-09-13, 20:32
Doors :p Oh wait I forgot that it would be impossible for doors to be added to the 2 spots where people actually fight...

Fences!

Ascension
14-09-13, 09:43
current balancing issues with certain classes force them to adapt this 'play style' if you're a lone APU and you want to live, you'll spend 5-10 seconds in the fight, come close to death (or get stacked with poison) zone and die, or zone and spend the next 3-5 minutes regenerating your health to do the same again.

Ivan Eres
14-09-13, 20:48
Doors :p Oh wait I forgot that it would be impossible for doors to be added to the 2 spots where people actually fight...

Doors are the worst idea ever. They limit the flow of moving thru these zones for everybody and they help nothing. The door at MB proved that.

Faid
14-09-13, 21:09
[Edited]

William Antrim
14-09-13, 22:17
Alduin made the thread. My spider senses tell me he wants to discuss it.

You are comparing people travelling about their lives in NC to people fighting here Faid. Two very different aspects of an average runners life.

Faid
15-09-13, 00:38
Apparently Im not doing anything but flaming <3 the moderation skills. I just don't think zone-whoring in pepper park is a big enough problem for the nc community as a whole to warrant such attention from the devs.

William Antrim
15-09-13, 03:21
I posted a reply but the pc ate it.


Pepper Park PVP is the only pvp for players who do not want the hassle of op fighting. There is nothing else since all the pvp events that players used to run dried up. If people want to casually dip their toes into the water of pvp then this is where they do it. It is an integral part of NC and as much a viable part of the game as any other.

If you cannot see that then I cannot help you further.

Faid
15-09-13, 05:38
It's not that I don't see your point William, it's that there are bigger fish to fry, so to speak. In my opinion of course :)

Torg
15-09-13, 11:30
yes and no, faid. zoning is a problem in op fights (not in plaza 2, we can agree on that).

William Antrim
15-09-13, 21:26
No Torg. Zoning is a problem in pvp everywhere.

Not sure what bigger issues you are referring to Faid as truthfully I havent seen a bigger issue than this pervading all throughout NC's lifetime.

I have never played a combat game where the enemy can hide with invulnerability in another zone and then talk shit at me (aside from this one). In days gone by I would have said that there were other bugs that needed attention but they have for the most part been quashed. The price of death and the inconvenience of it in today's nc is for me the biggest issue. It has the largest impact on the satisfaction levels in this game.

Perhaps it is a synaptic thing or some other feeling that I cannot explain but am aware of but there is a certain sense of satisfaction when watching my opponent crumple in a bloody heap. It is the sole reason why I play pc games. To compete with other players. To test my skill against theirs and hopefully be victorious.

NC with its current mechanics denies me that. It feels like foreplay without sex. You get all riled up and never get to finish because the other guy does not want to die due to the ball ache of getting poked and the down time he has to get "back to the fight".

Other games handle this very well compared to nc and it is the reason I moved on.

Torg
15-09-13, 23:45
It is the sole reason why I play pc games. To compete with other players.i see. maybe Neocron is not... perfect for you. my main reason to be here is to explore this world, to interact with others and to take part in combat in very, very limited means. i'd be ok if combat would be taking place at op fights only. whatever. have fun.

William Antrim
16-09-13, 00:10
i see. maybe Neocron is not... perfect for you. my main reason to be here is to explore this world, to interact with others and to take part in combat in very, very limited means. i'd be ok if combat would be taking place at op fights only. whatever. have fun.

In the most polite and honest way I can possibly muster I really do not care what you think. This is not about me. It is about zoneline whoring. Stay on topic and keep your opinions about what I do or do not do to yourself because your opinion is unwanted and irrelevant.

Torg
16-09-13, 00:23
Stay on topic and keep your opinions about what I do or do not do to yourself because your opinion is unwanted and irrelevant.good luck telling me what do do and what not to do. in my humble opinion zone laming is not a problem outside of op fights, because of the reasons mentioned before.
offtopic: forum discussions are mainly exchange of different opinions, arent they?
on topic: i'd be fine with closing this thread, while this decision is left to Alduin.

William Antrim
16-09-13, 01:08
Noone cares Torg.

DIABLO666
31-05-14, 00:19
The problem with stopping zone line whoring is that right now the only real pvp you can find is on zone lines like pp1, combine that with there being almost no pokers around and you end up with a situation where dying is just annoying. Everytime you die its about 5 minutes of sync which is fine but then its pokes! and you might end up losing a tl115 imp which could mean no more playing for a while.

A no sync out time after shooting could be cool later on, but for now the pvp is to small scale and the population of essential traders FAR to small to do anything, it'll just make people never want to pvp without full ppu support

NAPPER
16-06-14, 12:18
Easy fix make a new account lvl a spy upto lvl 20 there you go have a tl115 poker when ever you need

William Antrim
17-06-14, 22:27
Or just get 2 ppus, one either side of the zone line to ensure maximum survivability wherever you are in the game.

This is the inherent problem. Its not a case of pvp any more, its a case of getting a bigger gank team. The scales escalate until every available person is there or people just log off due to boredom. Zoneline whoring is just a small part of a bigger problem but repeating it just makes me sound like a broken record.

Sevendust
05-10-14, 09:48
Since I didnt read any realistic suggestions on this page, im posting with the simple & only idea I have for this.

Currently the only real fighting in the city happens in pepper. Since plaza 3 is not a safezone, Club Veronique is the safezone where the zoneline whoring happens. If you remove the safezones entirely, hardly anyone would fight that way. So keep the safezone security there, but make it not so easy to zoneline whore back & forth:
*Add doors to the upstairs entrances to Club Veronique
*Make these doors & the entrance door DOWNstairs open ->>> SLOW <<<- . Like the city subway door to the wastes.

Boom

William Antrim
07-10-14, 07:46
Faced with that situation I would just click the door open midway through the fight and wait for it to open whilst I clipped through my opponent before I ran into the waiting arms of my ppu on the other side.

I dont think it solves much honestly.

Sorry. :(

Sevendust
09-10-14, 04:14
and? you'd be fighting. & coming out from the club ud have to fight on the other side of the door. No more zone out, get drilled by more than 1 person, turn around, zone back to safety.

William Antrim
10-10-14, 20:53
I dont think it would help the situation sorry. In my mind its like putting a plaster on a gunshot wound.

Due to the actions I would take above when faced with such a situation I think its clear for you to see how I would bypass the measures you have attempted to put in to counter the issue. Whilst I commend you for coming up with a solution I also feel that you need to understand that I dont think it is an effective one. :)

Sevendust
16-10-14, 18:54
You'd be dead, actually.

Tino
16-10-14, 21:19
I did not read every comment since this is a big thread...not sure if this idea was brought up already but this is my suggestion:

If a person zones twice in a row...say within 10 secs of each other...they get frozen in position in the new zone for a certain amount of time...5-10 secs...long enough for them to be shot at and killed. For LEd people this will not harm their game play too much and will not change things too drastically for pvp runners...alot of the suggestions iv heard so far will really change the way pvp is done...is that your goal here or to fix zone whoring...trust me if a person knows they will get frozen on the other side they will wait the time before they zone again. As for a role playing aspect I can assume going through a zoneline is pretty extreme for a runner's body...if you go through too many zones too fast this will cause your body to go into a comatose state for a certain period of time.

The way i picture it is if you have one person on either side of the zone the person trying to avoid being killed is screwed after two zones. However with neocron there is also the option to press esc during the zone and zone crash to get away from your enemies...i suggest that if a person tries to do this make it so their body does not disappear right away and the person chasing has some time to kill a lifeless chicken trying to take the quick way out!

<3 Tino

ps Lets not get crazy here and break things in the process of trying to fix them...aka break pvp in the city

Tino
16-10-14, 21:30
I figured this was a good fix since the frozen body tactic is already being used in game when a runner is stuck and needs to reset_position 1 =)

William Antrim
17-10-14, 01:29
You'd be dead, actually.

No actually. The door would have opened at the start of the fight, I'd make sure of it and I am not the only one who would think of it. Even if it takes 5 seconds to open while I am fighting it would still open before I needed to zone. Either way, youre flogging a dead horse.

If your suggestion was to gain any traction tino it would need to only apply to zoning from and to certain zones - ie city zones only. If you did that in the wastelands then people crossing the corners of zonelines would be impaired by the debuff and could potentially die due to crossing 2-3 zones within the ten seconds.

If you could split this effect and separate it to only be applied when say zoning out of UG and in city zones for example then it might work.

Tino
17-10-14, 16:17
However they wanna do it...im just an idea man...also i have no compassion for pve nerds...let em all die to mobs!