View Full Version : Suggestions/Ideas for PvE
Hi!
I wanted to do an entry here for PvE. I really do play Neocron for its PvP, but I remember back when PvE wasn't so painful. I remember the days when I actually had fun doing PvE and I would do it for hours chasing warbots with a libby, and it would actually work very well and be rewarding. But let's face it nowadays when you do some PvE you just get raped.
Ok, some people will actually tell me PvE is easy, and that's understandable, but I'm not especially talking about easy but more about fun. And the way I see people doing PvE, I'm sorry but anything but fun. I'll name a few hunting spots and their rewards:
PvE spots and hunting
- Firemobbing for techparts : If you stay in front of a Hopper with full Inq. set you can kill it and barely make it. I'm not even talking about the Maulers and their über friends, the Grim persi.
- Warbot hunting for techparts: Even with a full HDensity dura set and a PA you get owned within seconds
- Hoverbombers for techparts: Don't even get me started, all you see is the light at the end of the tunnel, the blue one. Well actually it's a blue laser.
- DoY bots units for.. well, these parts you could sell in NC1 and now it's totally pointless (maybe drug recycling?): Hello, beam of light in your face and x-ray stacks of death.
- The Energycave (desert zones)/Swamp caves/The Grave: These places offer nothing good and the mobs there deal way too much damage to be places of interest.
- The DoY tunnels techs and illegals: The bots there just literally leave you no chance, other mobs have too many HP. 1st level not efficient enough to do, 2nd/3rd you need a PPU and wait for what's my next argument :D
- The Ceres Labs for WoC Disks: End-game cave, it's difficult but well, too much HP and I believe people do it in a weird way, myself included.
Alright, I named a few places and gave you an opinion, it is mine and you may disagree with it. Now comes the main argument in the way of doing these places and what it implies.
PvE/Hunting methods:
So a lot of people will say they can do these places easily, and you just have to know how. But here is the deal though, and I think most will agree with this, we are doing these places in a way that's not really enjoyable. I mean, Firemobbing, we hunt with laser beams and stay totally out of reach of the mobs there, Same with warbots hunting, we also use the hills to overlook the mobs and shoot it without it being able to reach us, any slight mistake of course leads us to have half-HP. Hoverbombers? Hell no one will approach these, they just two shot your PPU with the blue laser of death (and get bugged in top fo the trees where you cannot hack them), DoY Bots units offer nothing interesting, now I'm speaking a little bit out of knowledge here, their parts may be interesting for recycling purposes, if someone tried this, give me a feedback!
EnergyCave/Swamp/Grave, fascinating places to hunt, we could make something out of it, too bad it's totally not a place of interest, and way too much damage dealt to players. The Doy tunnels are interesting, I do solo the 2nd level with a Winding Argument like someone told me to, but really, it's like using walls to make the grenades bounces, it's smart of course, but mobs can't shoot you and it kinda feels like you are able to use that game mechanic only, it's not really fun to me. And finally the Ceres Labs, where I basically go in, go past first room, kill the unit in the way, click it continuously so it doesn't respawn, and nade/barrel the room without getting shot.
Ideas to improve PvE
I'm thinking, players currently have to hide too much and of course the use of a PPU is good but we definitely have to find another system because no one levels a PPU from the beginning (or some people do, but people will tell them to LoM APU pretty quickly). The way I see it is that we have a few weapons of choice when it comes to hunting and most of the time AoE for cave and Beams for outside world is the main choice. It makes sense but it's just you should be able to PvE with a PE libby, or a spy first love, and be as effective as if you were sniping with beams. My ideal PvE would be to use any weapon, and that I feel like there is a fight instead of hiding like a coward and take advantage of the dumb AI. I'm thinking lowering the HP and damage, but this can go through rewards also, if you take risks to engage combat in the swamp cave where there isn't even that much mob, get rewarded more XP than the bossroom where you fear nothing because the mobs only have melee range. I want variation in PvE, not the basic "Yo go to Regant Bossroom, it's the best". I don't want it to be the best place, I want it to be one of these places where I could go.
I really believe all of this requires very little work from the Dev, it indeed will need testing, but people are willing to do that on the testserver to make things go forward, because I have to admit it clearly, I don't feel the game is very fun to play as a newcomer. Now I can't say, been playing the neocrack for 10 years.
To me this whole risk vs reward make sense, we need to see something else and go somewhere else!
I also wanted to mention quick the rarepart dropping, maybe put more parts in the warbots (which also require hacking) and risky mobs? I know these weapons are supposed to be rare, but this game for now revolves too much around having a clan to get your things and such. Shouldn't be that way. I also wanted to mention Faid here, with whom I had similar idea for a long time: if you want to make something rare, then do it, but only play on aesthetics that will not unbalance someone who doesn't have that much time to play. PowerArmor that have different colors, whatever, people would hunt for this I know that for sure, and I don't think it's hard to change the colors of an item that already has its model made.
I think the game really need those changes, I honestly do. It affects both trading and PvP.
If you have ideas, please I would love to hear them out, people always come up with very interesting things when it comes to PvE.
William Antrim
12-06-13, 11:38
Yes on all points. All of the stuff you have mentioned is totally true. There is not enough variation. We need more areas to go to but the hp of the mobs is not too much of an issue in my mind. It is the mob damage in some of the caves.
See Deus Ex's thread recently I think it was about Swamp caves. These used to be good for mid level players (/30 and /40) to go to and level in. Now noone uses them.
Personally I would start with all of the caves that noone uses and then half the mob damage in them (on the test server ofc) and then see how you get on with a team of 4 people or so. None of those places should be soloed and all should require a ppu (for the social aspect of bringing solo players together at least) and then go from there.
If there was an appeal put out to test widespread PVE on the game with a view to repairing some of the issues I would go for it right off the bat!
totally agree. most pve these days is only doable where the ai is easily exploitable, like for firemobs, wbs, mc5, creeper caves. the rest is pretty much reserved for well prepared groups or solo droners.
i hate to bring it up, but removing the ppu from this game (test server ofc) would lead to a lot of changes that would benefit everyone. all mobs would have to be revisited in regards of damage. i know it's a long shot and i'm repeating myself, but i think it would REALLY help with the fun especially for solo players.
The Red Guy
12-06-13, 12:45
Ppu requiremt for all caves make them clan only again. we don't have that many players, ppus and unsteady server populations.
It is way more enjoyable and fun with a team and/or ppu assistance. The crucial point should be that it's possible to solo but hard and time-consuming.
OP nailed the PVE situation :) mob dmg revamp and a decent (but naturally inferior to a ppu) healing/buff solution for spy/PE/tank/apu would bring back the hunting experience.
I actually find myself more and more agreeing with enti on wanting the ppu gone, pve right now is impossible without exploiting or having a ppu so good luck doing anything without a big clan to help who always has a ppu on, hell even leveling you can't finish without a ppu really (well not without a lot of deaths or exploiting). And of course ppus I've found just make pvp more annoying as if your having a 1v1 fight a single ppu added will make it nigh on impossible to win, hell people with ppu support can go 3v1 against people without them (assuming a equal skill level).
I know its a hated thing to say but it would be so nice if the rez and anti buff was moved to the apu then the ppu done away with, it would make a proper pve balance be needed and stop the constant annoyance of a ppu turning up and making it pointless to fight as your enemy will be faster, stronger and more resistant and even if you kill them they get a rezz from a guy who wont die unless you get 2 or 3 people to help you.
As for general pve stuff aye it needs fixing, its a pain that the only way you can properly do pve to get rares or make money is basically by exploiting if you don't have a ppu to help you.
Doc Holliday
12-06-13, 14:28
keep the ppu shit out this thread or you are inviting people to flame you and thats not what this thread is about.
Neallys you said it all perfectly. I totally agree. Nc2 changed pve and i never liked it. Its not fun. Pistols are a joke. melee is a joke. You cannot viably attack anything with these classes range. your gonna get bummed. properly.
Caves should require a team/ppu. Wastelands should not but it should be better if you have one.
DO NOT DRAG THIS THREAD DOWN WITH THE REMOVE PPUS BULLSHIT PLEASE ENTI. Its off topic and your asking for trouble. I also repeated myself but you need to get the hint.
Please stop with this pistols are a joke nonsense, pistols have the woc pistols which are great and the ion to 1 shot legs, combined with the insane speed of a spy they are a more than viable weapon choice. RIFLES are a joke (and melee is indeed a joke), the only joke about pistols is that only the woc ones are useful.
William Antrim
12-06-13, 14:40
Please stop with this pistols are a joke nonsense, pistols have the woc pistols which are great and the ion to 1 shot legs, combined with the insane speed of a spy they are a more than viable weapon choice. RIFLES are a joke (and melee is indeed a joke), the only joke about pistols is that only the woc ones are useful.
How do you level to woc with a pistol genius?
this thread is about levelling. You need to have viable solutions to level everything.... levelling with a pistol is a joke. He is right, you just look like silly now. :)
DO NOT DRAG THIS THREAD DOWN WITH THE REMOVE PPUS BULLSHIT PLEASE ENTI. Its off topic and your asking for trouble. I also repeated myself but you need to get the hint.
it's not offtopic if its part of the solution. i don't really know why everyone is so resistant to the idea. why not TRY it? it's not as if there was no way to revert to the current state.
...and yes. leveling/pve with pistols is a very bad joke. the thing is just the insane damage which was obviously a quick fix for the abysmal ai of the mobs. the closer to the ai you get, the less important is it's behavior and only raw damage counts. maybe it would be a start (another dirty quick fix) to make damage from mobs scale similar to a redeemer.
Load_HeavyLoad
12-06-13, 15:58
its not part of any solution in this thread its completely irrelevant this just illustrates how much of an idiot you are, we're talking about changing PvE starting with CHANGING PVE i.e mob dmg, interactions, behaviours etc
think of it this way - would it fix pve if ppus were removed and nothing else? NO
removing PPUs is overhauling the whole game so get that shit out of this thread
its not part of any solution in this thread its completely irrelevant this just illustrates how much of an idiot you are, we're talking about changing PvE starting with CHANGING PVE i.e mob dmg, interactions, behaviours etc
think of it this way - would it fix pve if ppus were removed and nothing else? NO
removing PPUs is overhauling the whole game so get that shit out of this thread
removing ppus would be a big step towards class balance which is required to balance mobs properly. atm you always have to factor ppus and their imba shields into every equation, which completely removes solo play out of the picture.
you got a lot to learn if you think that changing pve has nothing to do with classes and their interaction with the world.
Thank you for reading guys :)
So first of all, I'm not here to talk about PPUs in general, especially not in PvP. I know it's frustrating to run into a PPU-DPS duo in Pepepr and you don't have one, but totally unrelated here. And to be honest, you can't get rid of PPU in PvP, it's a terrible idea. But you can change it so where PvP happens is random and you don't know where it's going to happen (ie. Pepper-park 1) this would encourage less dual-logging and more more "action on the run". I'd be glad to discuss this in another thread.
PvE wise, PPU are necessary. As someone pointed out clearly and rightfully, Neocron is still a MMORPG and the need to team up in cave should happen. Currently, we don't have that. As far as I know, it is more profitable for a player to dual log in DoY tunnels or Ceres Labs and get all the loot by himself. It's a painful experience but the most rewarding. ow don't we want that people actually team up to do runs that are profitable to both?
I see these solutions could fit:
- Up the effect of damage boost, making the full-time PPU useful in these caves as he has to damage boost as much as possible. To force the PPU to be active, make DamageBoost last a few seconds (and that would actually be good for PvP as well, that spell lasts like ages)
- Decrease the mob damage. Ceres labs for example, now I don't know what would be the outcome of that in term of loot, but lowering the damage enough so you can actually stand a chance to face your opponent with PPU shields (I'm thinking like a CopBot firepower, just a bit higher, can't do that on your own, great with PPU support in the Ceres Labs)
The idea behind this is to think "If I have a PPU here we can kill two times faster the mobs", also a cave that you can solo but takes time (like soloing two Neocron Copbots for example) and you want the run to be slightly more rewarding if two players are doing this. This will give the teaming up thing to be positive instead of negative and a waste of time.
Outside world as well as cave, yes, I'm really thinking it's possible to roll a Melee/Pistol build without having to snipe with Executioner or Beam of Hell. Also, reward the player that will come to a specific area with more resist for that specific damage type (I don't think we need a separate system PvE/PVP. This would take too much for that purpose only, and this can be done by lowering the mobs damage).
As I said in the OP, I wish to be in any of these cave and be a good place to hunt at. If it's a swamp cave, then there are less mobs there, and they give stacks and hurt you from a distance unlike the Bossroom of Regant (seriously nerf the XP of that cave, it's like the cool place everyone needs to go to), and let them reward more XP per kill.
Outside world - I'm thinking any type of hard mob there should drop a techpart. As I said the pool is big, and new players are just stuck and need a clan all the time. I need your opinion on this as this might not be good for the trade (or might be better since people have more things, thus trading is more active? You tell me. Maybe change the stats on getting slots on a rare, like 50% 1slot, 40% 2 slots, follow that logic, this is just theory crafting. And make 5 slotters 10% or 5%. I don't know which value this currently has, or if it totally random). I don't feel like trading is that active.
I also want to add: DEX on a Monk/CON on characters/PSI on Spies Make these experiences bar able to be filled when you are teamed up? Would be so GREAT for everyone, especially new players.
ppl keep saying that removing ppu is a terrible idea, but i have yet to see one argument for that to be true?
you can also kill two times as fast with another dd already. maybe even faster because you have less downtime due to the damage spread. we already don't need ppus for huge portions of pve and i'm confident that removing it completely would make balancing the whole game a lot easier in the long run.
you say that it's not fun to solo in pve any more... well guess what happens if you balance the game around either: solo apu vs group with ppu.
where should you even start to balance damage around that? grim persis already fire their fireballs on multiple targets so the only thing that differs in the equation is the ppu. which can do all sorts of crazy stuff to buff, shield and heal his allies. how can you possibly balance this? do you want to have fun in pve as a solo apu or rather only in groups with ppu support?
i suppose you could balance around a solo apu and then depending on players around mobs can spawn more minions and start to cast antis or something. is that where you want to go?
How do you level to woc with a pistol genius?
this thread is about levelling. You need to have viable solutions to level everything.... levelling with a pistol is a joke. He is right, you just look like silly now. :)
Not really as he didn't specify in which way pistols where *a joke* so it was mearly crossed wires, you really need to stop trying to put people down all the time its a ugly way to be.
As far as this thread goes, I do not see the point of getting rid of PPU. I get your ideas of getting rid of them and be self-dependent lke with a stronger heal (I assume that's where we are headed here), I still like PPU too much for the to get removed from PvE. It is a class, you both may not like it but people actually like to heal and shield people, and it works good with Neocron and its PvE. The support if they change PvE the right will be fun to play for other people.
As a matter of fact my opinion is they should up the XP a PPU gain when being teamed. His role has to be more important in PvE. The Damageboost seem the best PvE compromise. I get your point as it would make PvE something new like in Guild Wars 2 if I would have to name another example. But I just think the PPU role fits here. Their shields/heal system make OP wars really interesting for me, it's more tactical and people would get bored without them.
But to get back on the PvE system, the PPU role needs to change there as well. It needs to be more active. I fall alspee playing PPU in PvE.
Load_HeavyLoad
12-06-13, 17:25
OT bullshit
[ edited ] stop trying to derail this thread into removing PPUs - taking them out of game means opfights last 4 seconds and the UG whoring will be even more ridiculous and also weigh massively in favour of the defending team because they have somewhere to hide and the attackers dont
theres one reason [ edited ]
Enti and Diablo, this is not a fight that you must win.
Writing countless postings and threads does not mean your opinion is the most valid or the most important.
Please remember that we are here to make Neocron better and not to suit it to any individual need.
You two are starting to spam the Brainport and you are also starting to massively disturb good threads like this one with your personal crusades.
Please take a step back and calm down.
I'm starting to feel this forum is full of trolls and as such I hope they don't pay attention to it, the only post I've made that wasn't properly thought out was the 1 on pistols the others have all been ideas I've put forward with reasons why I think they would work. Is that not what the brainport is for? or is it meant to be a place where people put down ideas that YOU agree with, is that your idea of what its for maybe?.
William Antrim
12-06-13, 18:46
I'm starting to feel this forum is full of trolls and as such I hope they don't pay attention to it, the only post I've made that wasn't properly thought out was the 1 on pistols the others have all been ideas I've put forward with reasons why I think they would work. Is that not what the brainport is for? or is it meant to be a place where people put down ideas that YOU agree with, is that your idea of what its for maybe?.
Dude posting some bs about how ion pistols are good against players legs in a PVE thread is probably the single biggest dumb post here.
The thread starter is talking about levelling. He wants to improve PVE.
I hate to sound like a broken record here but seriously now NC1 PVE was the most balanced it could be. There was no need to make all of these changes. The damage was good, the new changes with locational damage have made things different sure and on average people now have more hp so perhaps the damage needed to be tuned up from what it was before but not by this much!
It needs to be scaled back across the board.
The PPU should get XP every time someone damages something he db'ed in my opinion. This would get him working, dbing mobs all over the place and healing and buffing as well. He gets xp from when people get hit by his shields I believe currently but if he could actually have an "offensive" weapon like the damage boost he would be a LOT more fun to play in my mind.
The ppu is the ultimate social leveller. He needs his mates to level with and they should need him. This gets the social interaction of NC going more. You do NOT need a clan to join to be a ppu. You can make plenty of friends as an LE'd ppu its just that you cannot buff the non LE'd (for obvious reasons) however you are more attractive a new friend if you are a ppu.
However this incessant whinging from you about forum trolls (2 posts in this thread) and your previous admission about posting while angry coupled in with your completely missing the point of the thread and getting so worked up just to make a post just makes me tune out from your threads and posts.
Back to the OP anyway.
Dude I think your ideas are good and this is a healthy discussion.
Personally I would like to see more droppable weapons in the world. As in Storm Lasers/Judgement Day Launchers etc. I would like to see some droppable pistols and rifles and more armour too. Not just Titan Vest and VK vest. We had a thread about that a while ago too. I want to see something for everyone out there in the wastelands and not easy to get. I want it to be tough to get these weapons and make people feel like theyve earned them. I would also like them to be a step into pvp for the mid level players. A stop gap to the rares for both PVE and PVP tbh.
I wanna see people get rewards for doing pve not just the rare parts they get and I want to see more people getting involved in bringing these ideas up.
This game has a lot of potential as there is a lot of fun to be had in the crafting side of things (making slotted weapons I mean) and the more fun people have the more they will play.
At the end of the day its all about the players.
Dude posting some bs about how ion pistols are good against players legs in a PVE thread is probably the single biggest dumb post here.
The thread starter is talking about levelling. He wants to improve PVE.
I hate to sound like a broken record here but seriously now NC1 PVE was the most balanced it could be. There was no need to make all of these changes. The damage was good, the new changes with locational damage have made things different sure and on average people now have more hp so perhaps the damage needed to be tuned up from what it was before but not by this much!
It needs to be scaled back across the board.
The PPU should get XP every time someone damages something he db'ed in my opinion. This would get him working, dbing mobs all over the place and healing and buffing as well. He gets xp from when people get hit by his shields I believe currently but if he could actually have an "offensive" weapon like the damage boost he would be a LOT more fun to play in my mind.
The ppu is the ultimate social leveller. He needs his mates to level with and they should need him. This gets the social interaction of NC going more. You do NOT need a clan to join to be a ppu. You can make plenty of friends as an LE'd ppu its just that you cannot buff the non LE'd (for obvious reasons) however you are more attractive a new friend if you are a ppu.
However this incessant whinging from you about forum trolls (2 posts in this thread) and your previous admission about posting while angry coupled in with your completely missing the point of the thread and getting so worked up just to make a post just makes me tune out from your threads and posts.
Back to the OP anyway.
Dude I think your ideas are good and this is a healthy discussion.
Personally I would like to see more droppable weapons in the world. As in Storm Lasers/Judgement Day Launchers etc. I would like to see some droppable pistols and rifles and more armour too. Not just Titan Vest and VK vest. We had a thread about that a while ago too. I want to see something for everyone out there in the wastelands and not easy to get. I want it to be tough to get these weapons and make people feel like theyve earned them. I would also like them to be a step into pvp for the mid level players. A stop gap to the rares for both PVE and PVP tbh.
I wanna see people get rewards for doing pve not just the rare parts they get and I want to see more people getting involved in bringing these ideas up.
This game has a lot of potential as there is a lot of fun to be had in the crafting side of things (making slotted weapons I mean) and the more fun people have the more they will play.
At the end of the day its all about the players.
As I already said my mentioning of pistols was due to him saying pistols are useless and not clarifying in what way he meant.
I said I made 1 angry post, are you honestly saying I am the first person ever to post in anger? are you the picture of perfection who has never done it? As going on about trolls what do you expect me to call it when you post in a thread I made containing a list of ideas and potential changes *Too long didnt read?
I want to make another rage thread because I do not like the fact that ppus are in the game.*
Do you think that is constructive or helpful to the thread? And there other cases though these could be idiocy like people saying hacking doesn't exist and that you can easily fire 4-6 ions in a row without a reload when it requires either nigh on perfect timing, all the guns having the same frequency or a macro. The main thing I see from you really is either agreeing with people or if you don't saying people are whining, which is not constructive at all. And of course lets not forget my mentioning the ppu was linked to the thread as it was about how most pve seems to be balanced around needing a ppu, other people derailed it by screaming about the idea to remove them.
As for the thread Indeed pve needs a bit change, I realise its a MMO but there should be the option to hunt alone if you wish but right now thats just not possible unless you exploit or have a ppu. I'm ok with some of the caves needing a team as they sort of act like dungeons, but you should be able to rare hunts and what not alone without needing to exploit.
The problem with dropping guns is we have a whole economy based around that, you buy a gun then you get a bp made and construct it, the only way dropping guns could work is if they are entirely different guns which also need to be bps then consted otherwise you are basically making all low level consters and ressers redundant.
Load_HeavyLoad
12-06-13, 19:05
why not drop guns that are of a low quality i.e bad etc so saves the money cost of buying the wep but still probably will get resd and cstd
why not drop guns that are of a low quality i.e bad etc so saves the money cost of buying the wep but still probably will get resd and cstd
this I would be fine with, it could even be cool to get guns monsters use such as the aggressor gun or such things, perhaps even have monsters like grims drop parts you can either add to guns or turn into new cool monster trophy guns. However the guns must be low quality until bpd and the monster trophy guns would need to be similar to rares so they could be a cool idea but pointless as we already have rares (unless people fancy suggesting other ways to implement them)
Back in NC1 there were weapons in warbots when you looted them. Everybody laughed at the quality and when it was time to research them they would be lazy and buy it near Plaza. And if I'm not mistaken some of them were even rares with crappy stats, I don't believe we need useless items that nobody will actually pick up (imo)
William Antrim
12-06-13, 21:44
They were removed very early and no rares dropped.
Dribble Joy
13-06-13, 00:48
Question:
Why should a player be able to solo a mob of higher level than themselves without considerable risk?
A hopper is /66 (?), why should it be easy for a capped char to down one?
Warbots are twenty levels above a capped char, why do people expect them to drop like flies?
Even on a pistol char I have no problem with WBs as they are at them moment. Do you want to be able to stand in front of them and plug away until it dies with no chance of dying?
Obviously this raises questions about the viability of solo leveling (including but not restricted to risk, xp and loot/reward), but then this is an MMO, isn't the team supposed to be something greater than the sum of it's parts?
Dribbles raises a point, in which case the issue could be that the mobs don't drop loot appropriate for their level, a grim for example can drop only 1 rare part and give 5k for a kill but thats pretty much worthwhile if its a solo kill not for a group... The effort it takes to kill these monsters compared to the reward is the real issue I'd say.
also it would be nice to have places people could hunt solo though.
J@ck on Cr@ck
13-06-13, 02:20
Neallys pretty much nailed it. You have to outrange mobs or somehow avoid taking damage, because mobs do so much damage.
I disagree that caves (chaos, swamp, grave, el farid) should require a PPU. You should be able to solo them, but it should take considerably longer. A PPU should simply make it easier or comfortable and faster to clear a cave.
I don't feel like trading is that active.
I agree, very few people are selling rare weapons and stuff in general.
...
All this talk about monks is off topic.
This thread talks about PVE and pistols are a joke when it comes to PVE, end of story! How could you not get that he is talking about PVE? LOL
Easily because all he said was *pistols are a joke* he didn't say *pistols are a joke in pve*
J@ck on Cr@ck
13-06-13, 02:53
Easily because all he said was *pistols are a joke* he didn't say *pistols are a joke in pve*
Context!
Well this thread is about PVE, so next time give it a bit more thought. :P
Context!
Well this thread is about PVE, so next time give it a bit more thought. :P
And yet we are discussing something other than pve here... not every post in a thread is strictly and completely about the title
Doc Holliday
13-06-13, 04:45
a grim for example can drop only 1 rare part and give 5k for a kill but thats pretty much worthwhile if its a solo kill not for a group... The effort it takes to kill these monsters compared to the reward is the real issue I'd say.
also it would be nice to have places people could hunt solo though.
Play more. Post less.
Obviously in response to the thread starter i was reffering to pve. That should have been as clear as a blue sky.
grims drop 1-3 rares btw. Im not nitpicking but the more you post the less i feel you really know about the topic you are discussing. I would advise to just take a step back and read more and listen to others (and that doesnt mean on the in game help channel) as you arent playing with all the facts at times it seems.
Range is not an exploit. its called using range. neither is cover.
Djs comment about oh i can do it fine with a pistol is so short sighted.
The reason for that is because you have to think about how it compares to other classes. The pistol guy doesnt have the advantage of range so will take far longer to kill a mob because of time spent healing as he gets bashed up more. This extends his effective hunting time and means that he is at a massive disadvantage out in the world compared a hc or rifle user. The melee user is even worse off than the pistol user. This, for anyone still confused, is why i said pistols and melee are a joke.
So how do u propose to fix this.
one option would be to scale back the mob damage of the mobs in the world. Make caves etc require a team and a ppu as yes they are indeed our versions of dungeons. It needs a healer to take the team through. chaos caves once upon a time could be done without one if the team wasnt dumb but by and large its easier and would make it much easier on people to level a pure ppu. You could show up at a cave entrance go "HAI" throw a heal on someone and instantly get in to the team. then you can level. This is a good thing.
It might actually mean changing mob ranks or having some kind of dungeon buff to scale them according to the challenge but this imo would be the best way to do it.
It would offer solo play for those who want it or team play (in the caves) and hopefully in time when the swamp caves etc are fixed and balanced plenty more spots to go to to farm.
So you can get a woc pistol and an ionic and shoot someone in the legs or what ever because thats what nc is all about.
:D /bows
Question:
Why should a player be able to solo a mob of higher level than themselves without considerable risk?
A hopper is /66 (?), why should it be easy for a capped char to down one?
Warbots are twenty levels above a capped char, why do people expect them to drop like flies?
Even on a pistol char I have no problem with WBs as they are at them moment. Do you want to be able to stand in front of them and plug away until it dies with no chance of dying?
No god mode of course. But a cr twenty levels higher for a mob shouldn't mean insta death or 2 shot death for me.
The reason for it is that it really should feel like a fight, as the OP explained.
Remembering my very first char in 2004 that was a MC tank I know how difficult it was to kill a Warbot alone but I was able to do it. Same goes for Brutes and Decayed Horrors.
Of course it was always a close fight and if a second mob spawned I was dead meat, but it still was possible. That made the heart reate go up :)
Hiding behind corners shooting grenades is really dumb, compared to that.
Oh Doc holiday again you decide to misinterpret what I said, I said CAN drop only 1 rare I didn't say thats the limit just that its possible for them to drop only 1, I spend a lot of time for mob hunting so I know full well what they can drop. As such if you kill a grim and get 1 rare its a waste of your time unless you are doing it solo.
As for range how is shooting things from so far away that not only can they not hit you but their ai doesn't even have a clue where you are or what to do not a exploit? Same goes for standing just under a ridgeline so you don't get hit by anything, you could say its tactics I guess but its more exploiting the bad ai and how they shoot.
Question:
Why should a player be able to solo a mob of higher level than themselves without considerable risk?
A hopper is /66 (?), why should it be easy for a capped char to down one?
Warbots are twenty levels above a capped char, why do people expect them to drop like flies?
Even on a pistol char I have no problem with WBs as they are at them moment. Do you want to be able to stand in front of them and plug away until it dies with no chance of dying?
Obviously this raises questions about the viability of solo leveling (including but not restricted to risk, xp and loot/reward), but then this is an MMO, isn't the team supposed to be something greater than the sum of it's parts?
Very interesting point of view. I haven't mentioned it a lot in this thread, but team leveling should also be more rewarding.
When you say a Hopper has a higher level than a player and shouldn't be soloed easily, I agree. This also raise a question of changing the CR of the mobs to make a little bit more sense. While I see your point here, it is easily countered with the actual PvE system. Because not only you can solo a /66, but you can solo 7 120/120 with a creed or another weapon of that type as easy as it sounds.
Which I think is wrong, because if you do get closer with a PPU or even a team, there is a high possibility that you all get killed. A looot of PvE in this game can be done solo/dual logged, not to say maybe all the things can be done that way. Of course I am not saying you should be able to solo a 120/120 and get out of it with 10hp loss at the end of it. But what I am saying is that all the PvE you do in this game, is done by hiding and kinda exploiting the IA and/or the system, which leads to a poor and VERY BORING interaction, that could be so much better
When you say a Hopper has a higher level than a player and shouldn't be soloed easily, I agree. This also raise a question of changing the CR of the mobs to make a little bit more sense.
Yup I agree with that rather than making them incredibly tough.
When you get around /40 you can range kill a lot of bigger mobs with a decent ranged weapon/drone or using cover.
The hopper mob is a good example as they are pretty much small change compared to big cash earners in the game like barter, researching bp missions and so on and carry items which are largely useless other than to recycle or vendor in the case of the level 1 imps that drop.
As far as I can see the hopper is in the game primarily as a mob to be beat up for levelling purposes and add atmosphere.
If we take it as literal and say 'well its 66/66 players shouldn't be able to kill them without a real fight as they are tougher than players' then you start to remove the actual reason it's there in the game.
The game doesn't have the population for it to require any kind of levelling post aggressors need to have a PPU.
The choice levelling spots/areas, caves and so on - yup team and ppu all day long, it's a team sport there.
Out in the wild though? It should all be soloable in my opinion (as it is currently)
I agree though that it shouldn't be cheese tactics to kill these things off and that a melee tank should be able to kill a hopper.
After all, we're the players in the game, not the hopper.
J@ck on Cr@ck
13-06-13, 19:32
As for range how is shooting things from so far away that not only can they not hit you but their ai doesn't even have a clue where you are or what to do not a exploit? Same goes for standing just under a ridgeline so you don't get hit by anything, you could say its tactics I guess but its more exploiting the bad ai and how they shoot.
GMs have stated that these are not considered exploits! I agree that its stupid and boring but they are not exploits.
GMs have stated that these are not considered exploits! I agree that its stupid and boring but they are not exploits.
Regardless of them not being exploits its still not how pve should be balanced really, I can spend hours in fire mob zones taking no damage using these non expoits, thats not how it should be really, in what other game can you attack mobs while they can't hurt you?
Deus Ex Machina
13-06-13, 23:39
... thats not how it should be really, in what other game can you attack mobs while they can't hurt you?In many. In some its kiting, in others it works if you use a range weapon and run backwards versus some of the mobs. I really like how it IS possible in Neocron not to get hurt. Most Games get it wrong were its taken for granted that you get hit. Even if the enemy is twelve times as high as you, doesn't matter, just take a few hits.
Of course the possibility of not getting hit would ideally be counterbalanced by a more or less decent AI, and I know of no MMORPG at the moment that has anywhere near that. Most enemies in games just run at you and then hit you, or have a prescripted behaviour. Neocron has nice exceptions, but sadly those make the AI broken most times. Or these are because the AI is broken?
I wonder if we could work on the AI?
Different and diverse Mob behaviour would be really nice, especially if it would make the mobs a bit more effective in behaviour. Staying on your feet and think faster to not get hit would make things more exiting than get to range and shoot till its dead, sometimes back a bit up because another mob aggroed too.
Doc Holliday
14-06-13, 01:20
Oh Doc holiday again you decide to misinterpret what I said, I said CAN drop only 1 rare I didn't say thats the limit just that its possible for them to drop only 1, I spend a lot of time for mob hunting so I know full well what they can drop. As such if you kill a grim and get 1 rare its a waste of your time unless you are doing it solo.
As for range how is shooting things from so far away that not only can they not hit you but their ai doesn't even have a clue where you are or what to do not a exploit? Same goes for standing just under a ridgeline so you don't get hit by anything, you could say its tactics I guess but its more exploiting the bad ai and how they shoot.
as i said. Play more post less and then maybe take a lot more time to post each post rather than power posting and making a fuck up of what you want to say? We can avoid these so called misunderstandings.
The Ai DOES have a clue where you are as it can easily be shown with warbots for example and the hits you take. Even if on screen the rocket for example flies over your head or you duck down as it flies at you and it hits dirt instead you can still see damage come off. Sometimes it calculates damage before the animation plays. Just because they wander about a bit off in the distance before they come at you doesnt necessarily mean the ai is fubar or what ever.
As i said. ranging them is a valid tactic and really the only one currently.
If your gonna challenge me again about what i do or don't understand make sure you have all your ducks in a row first. not a flame. just a friendly piece of advice.
Not if you use a gun at an extreme enough range it doesn't, if you fire at the extra range of some guns the mobs will walk away from you as your so far away it doesn't have a clue whats going on, and thats something I've seen happen first hand so stop trying to deny it.
And just because you didn't understand what I was saying doesn't mean there was an issue with it.
Not if you use a gun at an extreme enough range it doesn't, if you fire at the extra range of some guns the mobs will walk away from you as your so far away it doesn't have a clue whats going on, and thats something I've seen happen first hand so stop trying to deny it.
this is 1000% accurate, doc maybe u should stop concentrating so hard on diablo's post and follow your own advise, play more, troll less. and when did it become ok to be able to damage mobs in a way that they cant damage u back? I have an email from a gm i could post that states otherwise. uses words like safespotting and official warning. Now i agree with the op here 100% this thread hammers home alot of points that people have talked about ever since they made these changes. I completely understand why they made the changes, but ill say it again like i said back then. The changes made to mob damage are great if the population has the players to support it. during peak hours theres no problem finding teams in most popular leveling areas. but at night, population is 4% half of that are probably dual and triple logged. u dont find too many teams. so the people/americans who play at nite have very few options. and oh by the way, they are aware of mobs being to powerful as stated by trivaldi on his interview on neocast :D
Why is everybody thinking that "teaming" means to find a PPU?
Hunting Warbots is easily possible when teaming with another runner even at closed range. Because you can switch aggro from time to time to heal up.
Best example is the bunker anyway. Low level players with a baserank of 15 are killing mobs three times higher than themselves. Just because of their numbers :-)
People still think they have to go out there alone.
Sgt. Pepper
17-06-13, 22:11
Well PvE in neocron is far from challenging and being fun... Theres just 2 extremes ... dumb and slow melee mobs that can easily be outranged by almost everyone or the extra hard ranged ones that can shoot even if you don't see them anymore and are able to kill you with in1-3 hits... The solution schould be somewhere in between.
Someone mentioned regants to be too easy ... and thats true. If you can outrange everything and outheal all the stuff you can not avoid even as an APU theres something wrong. But think about it ... Regant's Bossroom is the most complex PvE Area we have in Neocron. There is a "tactic" involved to do it right. Too bad we all mastered this tactic and it feels too easy now.
Let me stick to Regant's and introduce some minor changes that could make the whole thing interesting again ...
What we have now is the crazy amount of Crawlers and Mutants that aggro the first target possible and stick to that target until it dies.
- tbh thats a good thing ... it gives us one aspect in that fight, than can be handled by one player whos fast enough to ourtange them ... so we have the first mechanic assingned to the first groupmember
The bad thing now is, that the 2nd thing, the Boss can almost be ignored until it dies within AoE anyways and our "team" does not even need a second member. So lets change what the Boss does.
He has its AoE attack, that can do a good amount of damage but can be outhealed with Medkits and Injectiontools. Thats dumb.
- Lets increase that aoe damage so even a PPU-supportet Tank could not stand it for long and find another way to deal with it.
If you can not outheal or outrange something we need a new way to avoid it. What if the Boss stops doing his AoE if someone is in melee-range? It has an melee-attack already, wich basicly can 2-hit a tank so that would need adjustment.
- Make the Boss stop AoE when he has a in meleerange
- Lower the dmg of that attack, so it can be outhealed with PPU support or handled by at least 2 "Tanks" that alternately step in and out of his range to share the hits and heal them selfes up again.
Now we basicly have a fight that takes at least 3 players to accomplish ... 1 "kiter" for melee mobs, 1 "tank" to stop the boss from aoeing and 1 "Healer" or "off-tank" to deal with the incoming melee-dmg. Everything will become as easy as it is now as soon as the boss dies, but until that point it should be a challenge for small groups and almost impossible to do alone.
Well, theres another thing that has to be changed ... trigger the aggro for all meleemobs not only to to the first one they spot, but also to the first one who attacks the boss. Otherwise it would be possible to "position" the Crawlers somewhere, resync and dps down the boss at the entrance.
Thats a few little changes in the mechanics of just one mob that could make the whole thing much more interesting. Imagine the possibilities if we extend that to other mobs ...
Maybe you can change Grim Persicutors, to Melee-Attack you and stop throwing Fireballs at point-blank range. You may want to have a Melee Tank by your side, when hunting them. Cause Melee-Classes could get an ability to avoid melee hit, based on melee-combat, athletics and constitution-level. So it makes them the only players to be able to take a bunsh of hits from these mobs.
And if you change mobaggro to be based on something understandable (like damage done) you could play with these mechanics... having your melee tank with you, getting the shit beaten out of him by your targets als long as you don't outdamage him. IF so the mob will suddenly turn arround and throw you some fireballs in your face again.
As we talk about grim chasers ... even if none of that changes will ever make it into game ... pls fix his beam attack, so it will be always visible ... if you can't get rid of it ... autoaiming fireballs is enough, there don't need to be an invisible attack that instagibs you.
Neocron was one of the "grind" Games where leveling was fun. But what is nowdays going on is beyond fun. There are some spots like regant giving a enourmous amount of exp for nearly 0 risk. Facing a Terrormauler without hiding is more challanging than cleaning Regant Fortress. There was a good balance in Neocron 1 in the end. I used to level alot by hunting Doom Reaper and other fire mobs with a tank. A full inqi equiped tank could face 3 Doom Reaper at the same time with the result he is going to low health but would be able to survive or dealing with 5 Doom Reaper in a row before start resting and healing. (Terrormauler dmg was equivalent to Doomies) The threat of a Grim Chaser or Persi was that they spawn adds. A good DD like the APU was able to kill a Grim Chaser with only one add wave getting spawned. The damage from Grims was very high, but not in a burst like today. There was a lot more gameplay like take cover and heal out the burn stack. Today its just omfg hit 5XX dmg.
Warbots are the next good example. A full duranium equiped Tank was able to face a Warbot without hiding. Today it would take less than 5 sec to die.
The result of that -> finding a good place to exploit aka Savespots, or a very easy way to get massiv exp like regant.
So I wanted to repost on the thread because I really think PvE is in dire need of changes either it is rareparts hunting and making trade more active or the whole leveling process. I really hate to tell myself how much of a huge pain it is going to be to level a new character, to buy a repair tool and nanites as a mandatory way to level up a monk's dex or use drone as it is the most effective and fastest way to level. I propose we tweak the XP rewards and the way of getting there:
- Apply a -50% on XP earned at the Regant bossroom. I mean come on, it's like a mandatory place to level up, no real threat from the 'melee only' mobs
- Increase the XP earned in the Swamp/Graves/Energycave and other places people never go to. I don't know by what %. I would go around a random number and say 75%, but that value would be different for each one.
- Drastic damage reduction on mobs to encourage further gamestyles to be taking place (This is to avoid things like shooting from far with beam weapons or tricking the mob so he cannot shoot you at all). Get rid of the insane spike-damaging mobs are able to pull off (Grim persi, DoY units, etc.). I am not saying make it super easy, I'm just saying things shouldn't kill us in 1 shot.
- Increase the rarepart drops on hackable mobs. And why not add a % of drop dhance on mobs like Hopper or other mobs in the Wastelands. I agree, rares should be rares, but a 5 slots weapon is a rare thing, I feel like the drop is too low and players rely too much on clans so maybe a little bit more rareparts could benefit Trading/PvE and even PvP if people can gear up with decent things faster on.
- Adjust the amount of XP rewarded per weapon type to make sure a balance is in place between the different types of weapon (plasma, beam, pulselaser, raygun, ..) and the Single target vs AoE experience.
- Increase the boost of the PPU's damage booster to mobs, but shorten its duration (also change its frequency) to give a PPU an important job in teams and to actually be useful as both support and debuffer.
- Monk's DEX, SPY's PSI, and CON level overall more accessible to level up (aka give that XP when the player is teamed, like for the PE's PSI levels)
These are just some of the ideas I have. You understand the main idea is "More gamestyles, more places to do experience and get rid of the AI exploiting".
Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.2.3 Copyright © 2024 vBulletin Solutions, Inc. All rights reserved.