View Full Version : Pistols need to be brought in line
I don't know if I'm the only one to have thought this, but does anybody else think that for the huge speed they allow its odd that pistols have about a similar if not greater dps than hc weapons? The dissy might have been the old god of pvp but in the current game is pistols I fear the most cos they don't slow people down (or do so to such a small extent I don't notice it) and yet they do about the same damage a hit that most hc weapons do, this while for the most part firing faster as well.
Does anybody else think this is another balance issue? or is it just a coincidence that all we see these days is berreta spys running around?
Tanks arent meant to be the 'be all end all' to pvp.
What makes them balanced defensively is their 100 con, which obviously stacks with PPU shields. No other character has that. Nanites won't stack, PE shields won't stack. They shouldn't be the top damage class, period.
Also, out of the best two weapons for PvP, one is the Devourer.
And yet with the best con the berretta hits about as hard on a tank as a tank weapon hits on a spy, does that sound balanced?
And the dev is good sure... if the enemy is a slow as hell retard that sits there saying *me not likey fire man*. If the enemy is fast and smart they keep shooting from range thus being impossible to hit, especially if you hit the legs first as that literally means you cannot win the fight (again unless the enemy is a retard who stands still)
Aye, the pistol build always has been super strong.
BHG
+
3/4x ionic shotgun pistol
it's indeed very OP, and when you say you get nailed as a tank, now think how you get nailed as a spy :D
3x ionic shotgun pistol should bring you to 100 hp left and broken legs, you can finish with a baseball bat if you wish.
If they are going to be so fast with it out it needs to do less dps than it does now really, its bad enough that they have the ion pistol for a 1 shot leg breaker but then having the berretta to finish people off with ease its a bit much, especially as they can stealth if things start going wrong. I'm not saying tanks and other classes are useless... but if you want to pvp a spy has almost everything, damage, speed and a get out of jail free card, the only thing they don't have is resist but if you're fast enough with stealth who needs that anyway?
another big issue I've just noticed is people using more than 1 ion pistol at once.. (might be what you meant) literally you can have no gap at all between shots pretty much and leave most people on half hp. Sure you risk loosing 1 if you die but you also wont die if you have a half decent aim as half hp in 1-2 seconds (specially if those shots hit your legs) is quite hard to come back from (and half hp is about the figure a tank ends up on, other spys and pes end up on about 1/4 hp)
CS/Dev/Ionic tank > Any kind of spy in 1vs1 (If equal skill), every time.
Dont whine about balance, when its clearly your aim that is lacking.
I do have a Pistol spy, and I also have a couple of tanks (one for opfighting and one for PP1).
I would never bring my spy to pp1..
Why would I, when I can log a tank, that can take a beating, and kill an unbuffed spy in 3-4 CS bursts?
My Pistol spy is being used for opfights only..
J@ck on Cr@ck
31-05-13, 20:55
CS/Dev/Ionic tank > Any kind of spy in 1vs1 (If equal skill), every time.
Dont whine about balance, when its clearly your aim that is lacking.
I do have a Pistol spy, and I also have a couple of tanks (one for opfighting and one for PP1).
I would never bring my spy to pp1..
Why would I, when I can log a tank, that can take a beating, and kill an unbuffed spy in 3-4 CS bursts?
My Pistol spy is being used for opfights only..
Basically this!
Diablo do you think tanks should have the highest resists, high speed and the best damage? LOL
"And yet with the best con the berretta hits about as hard on a tank as a tank weapon hits on a spy, does that sound balanced?"
Maybe your setup sucks?
"And the dev is good sure... if the enemy is a slow as hell retard ..."
You mention the solution to your problem in the same post ....
Why not shoot the legs of your enemy and THEN use DEV?
When you talk about ionic pistol dps you should keep in mind that you have to reload after every single shoot and often the reload doesnt work properly so you have to reload manually.
Cos then if you die you end up loosing a very expensive gun at a time when it cost 20mil to replace them. As for ion pistol it takes out legs in 1 shot and if people carry a couple they can shoot them with almost no delay. And do you think its fine for spys to have the best dps speed and a stealth tool to escape? At the very least tanks should be on par with the dps of a spy not below it.
As for ion pistol it takes out legs in 1 shot and if people carry a couple they can shoot them with almost no delay.
a loophole that shall be fixed. reload time is an essential component of dps balance.
that said, it could be wise to postpone this type of threads until the launch of "sparta" (balance project test server), as it will be shipped with a clean dps based foundation for balance, as was previously announced (http://forum.neocron-game.com/showthread.php?150673-Development-Update-April-2013).
Chuck Norris
31-05-13, 23:20
as you mention it takes 2-4 Ionics plus a woc weapon to compete with a tank with one gun... so it takes between 3 to 5 guns all rare or hacknet only to equal one tank, doesnt seem to unbalanced, just got to watch out for those min/maxers
No it takes 2-4 ions to leave any class utterly helpless you only need the berretta to win, the ion is just awesome to take out legs if you hit with it and make the fight basically a 1 sided slaughter
as you mention it takes 2-4 Ionics plus a woc weapon to compete with a tank with one gun... so it takes between 3 to 5 guns all rare or hacknet only to equal one tank, doesnt seem to unbalanced, just got to watch out for those min/maxers
now if only this one weapon wasn't worth 5 times as much as the 3 to 5 guns combined...
Chuck Norris
01-06-13, 00:09
now if only this one weapon wasn't worth 5 times as much as the 3 to 5 guns combined...
http://cdn.memegenerator.net/instances/400x/37008909.jpg
J@ck on Cr@ck
01-06-13, 00:14
Cos then if you die you end up loosing a very expensive gun at a time when it cost 20mil to replace them. As for ion pistol it takes out legs in 1 shot and if people carry a couple they can shoot them with almost no delay. And do you think its fine for spys to have the best dps speed and a stealth tool to escape? At the very least tanks should be on par with the dps of a spy not below it.
Oh sure if a tank loses a weapon its a big deal, but if a spy loses a weapon its no big deal?
20mil seems exaggerated ...
Tanks are on par with spy dps or do even more damage.
Spies have bad resists and die rather quick if you are able to hit them!
I agree with you, that you should not be able to shoot multiple ionics with no delay.
William Antrim
01-06-13, 01:08
I don't know if I'm the only one to have thought this, but does anybody else think that for the huge speed they allow its odd that pistols have about a similar if not greater dps than hc weapons? The dissy might have been the old god of pvp but in the current game is pistols I fear the most cos they don't slow people down (or do so to such a small extent I don't notice it) and yet they do about the same damage a hit that most hc weapons do, this while for the most part firing faster as well.
Does anybody else think this is another balance issue? or is it just a coincidence that all we see these days is berreta spys running around?
Shoot their legs. Sorted.
You should be able to shoot and swap fast when choosing not to reload the first, empty, weapon in your QB.
Keep in mind after that you have to reload them all.
I think we all know that with the runspeed and smaller hit box its not as easy at that, they are getting similar to the problem mc had in that they do amazing damage and are hard as hell to hit on the basis that if you do manage to hit em they go down quickly, however this is a tough balance as especially with clipping its easy for them to get rid of your lock and when ppus get involved it makes it even tougher
J@ck on Cr@ck
01-06-13, 04:24
I think we all know that with the runspeed and smaller hit box its not as easy at that, they are getting similar to the problem mc had in that they do amazing damage and are hard as hell to hit on the basis that if you do manage to hit em they go down quickly, however this is a tough balance as especially with clipping its easy for them to get rid of your lock and when ppus get involved it makes it even tougher
The runspeed was already nerfed so what is your problem apart from having bad aiming? Did you ever experience the runspeed before it got nerfed?
There are plenty of people that are able to do what you cannot. Maybe you should use AOE weapons ...
I agree with you Kame, but you have to acknowledge that the damage output can be extreme if you are able to land multiple ionic hits. However this requires skill and you dont see me complaining about this! :p
Like Mokoi said, be patient and wait for Sparta and the balancing.
I think we all know that with the runspeed and smaller hit box its not as easy at that, they are getting similar to the problem mc had in that they do amazing damage and are hard as hell to hit on the basis that if you do manage to hit em they go down quickly, however this is a tough balance as especially with clipping its easy for them to get rid of your lock and when ppus get involved it makes it even tougher
Dude, Im trying to be nice.. But really..
DO NOT BLAME OTHERS, ON YOUR SHITTY AIM!
1vs1 Tanks are (BY FAR!!!!) the best class.. At opfights its pretty even between spies and tanks atm. Spies can stealth, and tanks can take a fuck-ton of damage, and have Dev...
Honestly a good aiming Dev tank, will do more damage than any spy will..
However, he will be the first to be focused. Which is why spies are so nice (read: easy) to play at opfights.
Petalustig
01-06-13, 05:29
I don't know if I'm the only one to have thought this, but does anybody else think that for the huge speed they allow its odd that pistols have about a similar if not greater dps than hc weapons? The dissy might have been the old god of pvp but in the current game is pistols I fear the most cos they don't slow people down (or do so to such a small extent I don't notice it) and yet they do about the same damage a hit that most hc weapons do, this while for the most part firing faster as well.
Does anybody else think this is another balance issue? or is it just a coincidence that all we see these days is berreta spys running around?
Wtf... Tank is one of the best 1 on 1 classes.. use ionic cannon 1-2 shoots in the leg 3 in the head finish.~~ if you lose with a tank vs a spy who dont hit you with 2-3 ionics in the legs before you see him you make something wrong... but if you want to test it log a bhg spy and i log a tank and we go to neofrag or something than we see how op is the pistol spy~~...
and plz buff the apu that is what we need~~..
yeah i know my english is very fine you dont must tell me this..
a loophole that shall be fixed. reload time is an essential component of dps balance.
that said, it could be wise to postpone this type of threads until the launch of "sparta" (balance project test server), as it will be shipped with a clean dps based foundation for balance, as was previously announced (http://forum.neocron-game.com/showthread.php?150673-Development-Update-April-2013).
that ^
If people would start to use nanites... spy's wouldn't be so bad in 1vs1...
so .. who is who?
http://www.lastgeneration.de/PistolSpy_Nanites.jpg
http://www.lastgeneration.de/hctank_highwep.jpg
J@ck on Cr@ck
01-06-13, 20:54
If people would start to use nanites... spy's wouldn't be so bad in 1vs1...
so .. who is who?
http://www.lastgeneration.de/PistolSpy_Nanites.jpg
http://www.lastgeneration.de/hctank_highwep.jpg
Well if you do 1on1 with friends to practice and stuff like that you can use nanites, but in any other situation if you have to inject yourself 10 doses of nanites to get decent resists you will be dead by the time you inject yourself 10 times.
Well if you do 1on1 with friends to practice and stuff like that you can use nanites, but in any other situation if you have to inject yourself 10 doses of nanites to get decent resists you will be dead by the time you inject yourself 10 times.
well .. where is the time difference between selfbuffing with nanites or dual logging a ppu in club veronique?
I am using nanites since release and beating every tank with them. If you have the tools ... use em.
William Antrim
02-06-13, 10:50
I love how this defence always comes up. I can beat people so it must be balanced. Player skill has nothing to do with balance. Please understand that.
player skill?
There are TOOLS ingame which nobody is using just because "it takes some time to buff yourself"...
Nanites are clearly uncomfortable to use... and we may wanna change that but nevertheless are you discussing balancing from the wrong point of view.
You all state that Spies are bad in 1on1s... but you don't even know their full potential. Player skill has nothing to do with that.
Buff yourself with nanites (which are clearly spy only tools) and go into a 1on1 against a gen tank and THEN you can discuss about the spy being to weak in 1vs1.
http://img16.myimg.de/minispyef20b_thumb.jpg (http://www.myimg.de/?img=minispyef20b.jpg)
4 Injections, thats one tool load.
I'm sure my spy can take more damage than some of your sucky tanks :P Luckily nobody uses nanites, spys are overpowered as is.
On topic: I agree that some pistols are "out of the line" strong (especially in combination with the runspeed possible). However the problem is not solved by toning down pistol damage. Every weapon types damage and the efficiency of PPU Shields should be toned down. Beam damage registry needs to be fixed also. Then we can discuss further 'imbalance' issues between the weapon classes. It is too early to discuss specific changes - bugs and underlying problems need to be fixed first.
Give the dev team the time to fix them bugs before demanding balance changes. If you demand them now you will be partly responsible for the fucked up outcome.
Also: If you have no idea of PvP - do not discuss about it, please.
J@ck on Cr@ck
02-06-13, 14:23
where is the time difference between selfbuffing with nanites or dual logging a ppu in club veronique?
Well first of all dual logging ppu is lame and additionally ppu buffs are much better than nanites.
"it takes some time to buff yourself"
This is probably the understatement of the year!
You are clearly talking about zoneline PVP, Im not! In a random PVP situation you cant use nanites because of the time it requires to inject them. I have used nanites for some time and they are indeed powerful for zoneline PVP, but for any other PVP situation they are obnoxious to use.
J@ck on Cr@ck
02-06-13, 14:57
http://img16.myimg.de/minispyef20b_thumb.jpg (http://www.myimg.de/?img=minispyef20b.jpg)
4 Injections, thats one tool load.
I dont believe this is only 4 injections, unless you have some sort of PPU buffs.
William Antrim
02-06-13, 14:58
player skill?
There are TOOLS ingame which nobody is using just because "it takes some time to buff yourself"...
Nanites are clearly uncomfortable to use... and we may wanna change that but nevertheless are you discussing balancing from the wrong point of view.
You all state that Spies are bad in 1on1s... but you don't even know their full potential. Player skill has nothing to do with that.
Buff yourself with nanites (which are clearly spy only tools) and go into a 1on1 against a gen tank and THEN you can discuss about the spy being to weak in 1vs1.
I think you need to read who is arguing what.
I said that alot of "balancing" discussion starts with "I can beat XYZ person on my [whatever class] so they are ok"...
These sort of posts come up all the time and they add nothing to the discussion. Mechanics get discussed and can be changed. For example - nannites. I made a thread a long time ago asking for nannites mechanics to be massively simplified. I wanted them to be able to be injected in a single burst (like PSI) and give the same kind of protection but be slightly different in terms of value and the like. The mechanic of administering them however is clunky and unwieldy and many people do not understand them. This is why I think they are not used more.
Slith everyone thinks theyre an expert in everything on NC, sadly it is up to us to ignore the people who have no clue.
http://img16.myimg.de/minispyef20b_thumb.jpg (http://www.myimg.de/?img=minispyef20b.jpg)
4 Injections, thats one tool load.
I'm sure my spy can take more damage than some of your sucky tanks :P Luckily nobody uses nanites, spys are overpowered as is.
.
I'm guessing the 2 drugs used are red flash and paramol x forte (or whatever it's called).
Crazy resists all the same though.
On topic: I think the OP needs to understand how completely useless 90% of the rare pistols actually are. Yeah there are a couple that are strong but on the whole, you have so few viable choices.
Well thats another issue I have, theres like what, 11 rare pistols? perhaps more, and I only see 1 used and the ion, perhaps now and then I'll see a slasher and a xbox but rarely its all barretta these days. Hopefully the big balance will sort that, always wanted to make a spy who uses exe but its a joke gun right now
The cookie-cuttering of setups to the flavor of the day is also un-avoidable.
Crying about it on forums might make some people feel better about it somehow.
William Antrim
02-06-13, 17:05
The cookie-cuttering of setups to the flavor of the day is also un-avoidable.
Crying about it on forums might make some people feel better about it somehow.
it has always been this way, ever since forever. The only difference these days is with the damage bonus on woc pistols there is no point using other pistols. If it did any damage you might see people use the back up gun every now and then but with the freeman and Beretta being so good what is the point in bothering with the old school guns?
I'm guessing the 2 drugs used are red flash and paramol x forte (or whatever it's called).Redflash and Paratemol X-Forte, the basis for every setup for Monks, Tanks, Spys and PEs. I tick them in Neoskiller before I decide what im going for.
Redflash and Paratemol X-Forte, the basis for every setup for Monks, Tanks, Spys and PEs. I tick them in Neoskiller before I decide what im going for.
I did the same pre-speednerf.. Now I dont bother with drugs on my spy anymore (when opfighting).
My tanks still use 4 drugs though :p
Redflash and Paratemol X-Forte, the basis for every setup for Monks, Tanks, Spys and PEs. I tick them in Neoskiller before I decide what im going for.
I'm not really a fan of setup's that mean when undrugged you can't even use your weapon or heal, but I can see how in specific scenarios like OP fight's and PP (where you can prep in club veronique) it allows for a very strong build.
I like drugs to boost/enhance my setup not be a requirement to do anything, like farming etc.
Back on topic; I think the OP is complaining about everything that's killed them. [see other brainport threads]
J@ck on Cr@ck
03-06-13, 14:50
Back on topic; I think the OP is complaining about everything that's killed them. [see other brainport threads]
Thinking the same.
Not at all, this was more made form annoyance but others are perfectly legit. If you think a droner doing 3/4 hp to a whole group is balanced you've got something wrong with your mind tank
William Antrim
03-06-13, 15:24
[Edited] You shouldnt make brainport threads when you are annoyed honestly. I dont think it will help you get your point across if I am completely honest.
This section is the most important to me these days. I couldnt care for the others much any more but Brainport is the lifeblood of the community because it get's listened to and acted on. This is important.
Load_HeavyLoad
03-06-13, 15:45
can we get a moratorium on DIABLO666 and eNTi's ability to post in the Brainport we dont want another re-run of NC2.2 changes
Yes cos banning posting is always a good idea as nobody could possibly tell a bad idea from a good one. You do realise that devs worth there salt (which the new ones seem to be) wont just say *oh look they say that lets change it* they will say *oh look lets test that theory out*. As such even if people post bad threads like this one it doesn't mean they will instantly make a huge sweeping change with no testing, thats what KK would have done.
Load_HeavyLoad
03-06-13, 16:21
well you would think that forum users would use the brainport to post constructive and well thought out ideas instead of just whining about how they get dicked on in pvp.........
William Antrim
03-06-13, 16:23
Yes cos banning posting is always a good idea as nobody could possibly tell a bad idea from a good one. You do realise that devs worth there salt (which the new ones seem to be) wont just say *oh look they say that lets change it* they will say *oh look lets test that theory out*. As such even if people post bad threads like this one it doesn't mean they will instantly make a huge sweeping change with no testing, thats what KK would have done.
As long as that theory is sane, calmly explained and well thought out and not written out of pure annoyance. By your own admission no less. :)
Screw it, just give pistol users an op WoCket pistol that'll make things more balanced.
As long as that theory is sane, calmly explained and well thought out and not written out of pure annoyance. By your own admission no less. :)
Yes but ones made out of annoyance get shot down easily like this one, and if they don't then it means the idea was sound even if it came out of anger.
Load_HeavyLoad
03-06-13, 18:34
Yes but ones made out of annoyance get shot down easily like this one, and if they don't then it means the idea was sound even if it came out of anger.
quality is better than quantity even if the blind squirrel occasionally finds the nut
William Antrim
03-06-13, 18:46
Consistently bumping a thread with new comments and no new feedback etc is not really how the brainport should be used though. A thread can have ten pages of bs and 2 good ideas or it can have one page of good quality ideas and constructive thought. I know which I would rather read.
For the record I do not think that pistols need any specific adjustment.
For the record I do not think that pistols need any specific adjustment.
Except for other pistols being made viable, I hope? :p
Indeed other pistols definitley need a buff, and also yes people need to stop bumping this thread when I the OP have actually said I have changed my mind on the matter so at this point its just pointless to add anything else.
Hopefully a mod can close this thread
William Antrim
04-06-13, 10:57
Except for other pistols being made viable, I hope? :p
I think pistols as a class need a serious overhaul but that is the problem with Woc being substantially better, not the pistols themselves per se.
It is the presence of Woc not the absence of other guns that makes them weak.
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