Balance

[SynC_187]

With the upcoming balance project and it being a topic that half the current posts on the forum are about, I thought I would start a topic to discuss the options and pitfalls. Obviously the dev team have thought hard about it, but everyone has a different perspective.

A couple of rough idea's that would need polishing to work. If you can think of any good ideas, post them.

The biggest problem I can see at the moment is TL. The higher the TL, the higher the damage, as it should be, until you get to end game. Once you hit end game, if everything is balanced by TL, then there is only one logical weapon for each class in general, the highest.

I can think of 2 possible ways around it.


Make all rare weapons the same TL
Drop ammo mods for rares and give them different damage types based on type of weapon


The downside of making all rares the same TL is you suddenly hit a certain level and open them all up. There is no gradient to work through, so the fun element of leveling and opening up new things is gone.

Dropping ammo mods would be hard to implement (current rares would need to have a slot opened and the mod dropped), but it would open us up to different builds. You are going to hunt players in a popular firemob spot. They are in inq armour and using a gamma weapon. How do you equip yourself? Do you spec to protect against the other players, with x-ray/energy, or do you worry more about the firemobs you have to negotiate? Maybe a bit of both?

It gives you reason to have different setups depending on where you are hunting. Yes you can argue it means you need even more equipment to be viable everywhere, but it also means you can be viable with less equipment sooner.

[Deus Ex Machina]

I think the "easiest" way to achieve balance is when the TL influence on damage is lowered.
As I do not know what the actual numbers in the background are (if there are any) I give an example: Lets say at the moment one additional TL gives 3 extra DPS. if you lower the curve one additional TL could give 2 extra DPS.
In addition the influence of armor and resists could get a bit higher.

What follows is this: higher TL gets less important, while resists are more attractive. If you reach a point where a few Spies at least think about, if they should pull out all Dex based implants and put in different resist based ones and use a Terminator, Pain Easer or Liberator, then it should be okay I guess.

Of course that would mean implants are balanced too. If one implant always is better because it brings Dex and Weapon skills and together thats far more worth than a not so rare, lower resist chip, then not many will think about it. (At least as long as the influence of the weapon skills is quite noticeable - I am beginning to think the hard cap on weapons wasn't that bad)

[William Antrim]

What follows is this: higher TL gets less important, while resists are more attractive. If you reach a point where a few Spies at least think about, if they should pull out all Dex based implants and put in different resist based ones and use a Terminator, Pain Easer or Liberator, then it should be okay I guess.


I think your thinking is sound but your example is a little extreme. If spies are thinking about using a terminator to compete then class balance has well and truly failed. They should be thinking of rolling PEs then.

[eNTi]

i think we have to ask a elemental question to go anywhere with weapon balance:
what purpose does a certain weapon have? where does it fit in the current meta game? i think there's not really a point to having different rares if they are all the same just with higher requirements. this makes higher tl weapons actually worthless. like the executioner. weapons need certain roles and higher tl should mean more versatility. just upping the damage is bad as we've seen with the dissy.

this is not easy and i have no real answer to the problem, only a few suggestions. looking at other fps we can usually see that certain weapons fit in a role. some weapons offer different mechanics. we have that here, but it's broken to the point where balancing is meaningless.

regarding different roles: for example a creed vs a ravager. i'm not quite sure which different roles they have. they are actually the same with a slightly different mechanic that almost doesn't matter. creed is good for pulling (which seems more like a bug), rava has a higher chance to do it's actual damage because of fewer misses, but creed does more damage overall. that's all i can think of. other than that they just water down the rare pool to make it harder to actually get one. i don't really see why there's a tl difference of 15 between them.

tl;dr
fix weapons, then make rare weapons side grades with more options, less difference in dmg output. higher level more options.

[William Antrim]

Visual and aesthetic differences firstly. Damage second, the differences between burst and beam is another.

[Ascension]

Visual and aesthetic differences firstly. Damage second, the differences between burst and beam is another.

Exactly the same for APU's they have a variety of modules: halo, lance, beam, bolt & barrel, yet end game you have a choice of beams and barrels,

[Deus Ex Machina]

I think your thinking is sound but your example is a little extreme. If spies are thinking about using a terminator to compete then class balance has well and truly failed. They should be thinking of rolling PEs then.You are right of course. I like extreme examples, and I like slower weapons with bigger hits - like shotguns (in theory). Thats why the example came up ;)
But spies that also like shotguns might think about it just because of fun, because they are not high enough yet, or because they want to show off - but only if the option is at least partly useful.



Exactly the same for APU's they have a variety of modules: halo, lance, beam, bolt & barrel, yet end game you have a choice of beams and barrels,Thats a good point. One option to make that and not bloat the rare pool might be to have an NPC that can change Rare Spells into other versions. So you get a Holy Lightning (Beam I think?), and can change that to a Holy Lightning Lance, Holy Lightning Ball, or what fits into the same "category" (= single hit), that has exactly the same attributes.

[Doc Holliday]

Interesting ideas. Flatten off the curve with TLs from 90-115 though. Keep progression of levelling the way it is. Then tweak combat styles as appropriate (melee. Low level psi spells etc)

Enti makes some great ideas. Maybe DoT's on more weapons. Anti stealth gun springs to mind. Kinda like electricity that gets zapped in to someone and makes them "live" which stops them stealthing etc. im thinking outloud folks so dont shoot me down in my prime here ok ;) Currently there are too few that do stacks and its only poison/fire. changing this from ammo mod to weapon that inflicts the dot could be intriguing.

[Ivan Eres]

Flatten off the curve with TLs from 90-115 though. Keep progression of levelling the way it is.


This.

I'd just change the proposed parameters slightly:

- Start with the Epic Weapons at TL 75 and flatten the PvP damage curve so that a TL 115 Disruptor does around 10-20% more damage in the end.

This way you could really still stand a chance with your Epic Gun in PvP although you'd have max. 20% less dmg, for example.

I know these views are kinda simplifying but we gotta start somewhere, don't we?

One more thing regarding PvE:

- Separate the damage progression for PvE and make it linear, so that you really have a lot more dmg with higher TL
- Make the Epics stand out for PvE, like the TT one, their PvE damage should be like the highest TL weapons around

Just my 2 cents ;)

[Ascension]

Enti makes some great ideas. Maybe DoT's on more weapons.
Ok, lets start with giving APU's their DoT's back, why on earth poison and fire stacks were removed is beyond me, admittedly the damage was slightly too high, but when I'm stacked 6 high with poison from a DEV, I'm kind of envious.

[eNTi]

This.

I'd just change the proposed parameters slightly:

- Start with the Epic Weapons at TL 75 and flatten the PvP damage curve so that a TL 115 Disruptor does around 10-20% more damage in the end.

This way you could really still stand a chance with your Epic Gun in PvP although you'd have max. 20% less dmg, for example.

I know these views are kinda simplifying but we gotta start somewhere, don't we?

One more thing regarding PvE:

- Separate the damage progression for PvE and make it linear, so that you really have a lot more dmg with higher TL
- Make the Epics stand out for PvE, like the TT one, their PvE damage should be like the highest TL weapons around

Just my 2 cents ;)
these ideas are terrible on their own. why would anyone in their right mind use high end tl weapons then? there's NO point in doing so. i'd rather put 4 con or psi imps in my brain then. especially in pve. the tt already does VERY GOOD damage compared to the other two epics already and it does ok-ish damage compared to ravager and creed for it's low tl. tweaking damage only is lazy and bad design.

[Castr0]

I can think of 2 possible ways around it.


Make all rare weapons the same TL
Drop ammo mods for rares and give them different damage types based on type of weapon



This would so much kill the setup variety ...
All the same TL : bad idea :
- spy damage = PE damage ?
- no more use of +dext implant ? This would lead to everyone has a setup to be able to use rares and everyone will have the same setup/implants
Drop ammo mods for rares : why not but instinctly, I don't like the idea ... I wonder what consequences it would have and what would the benefit be ... (I don't really see any)

[WooT]

I can think of 2 possible ways around it.


Make all rare weapons the same TL
Drop ammo mods for rares and give them different damage types based on type of weapon




So your main character is PE/Tank right? why remove ammo mods? to make the game even more static then it already is now? balance doesnt mean to remove all options and prevent people have different setups - this is neocron not planetside!

[hajoan]

I can think of 2 possible ways around it.


Make all rare weapons the same TL
Drop ammo mods for rares and give them different damage types based on type of weapon



If you make the TL too high you nerf the PEs.
If you make the TL too low you possibly will notice a raising of rifle tanks that you possibly not noticed before.
They have only dex less.

[eNTi]

So your main character is PE/Tank right? why remove ammo mods? to make the game even more static then it already is now? balance doesnt mean to remove all options and prevent people have different setups - this is neocron not planetside!
yes. the myth of absolute balance makes any game boring and bland, where everything is essentially the same with a different skin. that's why different mechanics are much more important. some things just can't be properly balanced. they need to be taken into consideration when looking at the current meta game. you can't easily balance a claw of bear vs. a silent hunter. it's not the solution to up the damage of the claw of the bear to the point where it basically one shots you.

we need a lot more options for people to experiment and find superior setups. the more options we have the higher the possibility for FUN and if everyone jumps on the bandwagon of some op combination this combination gets brought in line with other options. we need different beams have different effects. laser and plasma shouldn't be simply two forms of energy (even though they are on a very basic level). for example plasma could lower certain resists while applied continuously within a few seconds, while laser could set you on fire. poison reduces the durability of your armor and so on. you get idea.

[Netphreak]

yes. the myth of absolute balance makes any game boring and bland, where everything is essentially the same with a different skin. that's why different mechanics are much more important. some things just can't be properly balanced. they need to be taken into consideration when looking at the current meta game. you can't easily balance a claw of bear vs. a silent hunter. it's not the solution to up the damage of the claw of the bear to the point where it basically one shots you.

we need a lot more options for people to experiment and find superior setups. the more options we have the higher the possibility for FUN and if everyone jumps on the bandwagon of some op combination this combination gets brought in line with other options. we need different beams have different effects. laser and plasma shouldn't be simply two forms of energy (even though they are on a very basic level). for example plasma could lower certain resists while applied continuously within a few seconds, while laser could set you on fire. poison reduces the durability of your armor and so on. you get idea.

Some interesting points there.

And I agree, balance definitely does not make boring. It's all about trade offs.
Let's take a PE as an example. I should be able to have multiple setup options.
E.g. High defenses using a lower TL weapon such as a Termi or Pain Easer or sacrifice some defence to go for higher offense with something like a Reaper or Desparado.

Ideally both should stand an equal chance, one is able to mitigate more damage, whereas the other is aimed around doing more up front damage.

Hope that makes sense.

[SynC_187]

yes. the myth of absolute balance makes any game boring and bland, where everything is essentially the same with a different skin. that's why different mechanics are much more important. some things just can't be properly balanced. they need to be taken into consideration when looking at the current meta game. you can't easily balance a claw of bear vs. a silent hunter. it's not the solution to up the damage of the claw of the bear to the point where it basically one shots you.

we need a lot more options for people to experiment and find superior setups. the more options we have the higher the possibility for FUN and if everyone jumps on the bandwagon of some op combination this combination gets brought in line with other options. we need different beams have different effects. laser and plasma shouldn't be simply two forms of energy (even though they are on a very basic level). for example plasma could lower certain resists while applied continuously within a few seconds, while laser could set you on fire. poison reduces the durability of your armor and so on. you get idea.

That was what I am talking about. Removing mods doesn't remove variety. It means that rather than everyone using 1 weapon with
a number of ammo mods in it, you are forced to use different weapons to do different damage. If a certain weapon becomes flavour of the month and everyone specs resists against it, you are forced to vary the weapon you use.

Thats not removing options. Its forcing people to think more about setup as it is a moving target.

I do however like some of the other ideas, which are very well thought out.

P.S. I'm a spy/monk.