Cash sink idea - buying missing rares

[William Antrim]

I just had an idea come to me from reading the Test server patch thread. Bear with me here because this is literally hot off the press.

On the Test Server we have an NPC who sells us rare weapons for testing.

On the Retail Server we all have hundreds of rare parts in our collections but many of us have missing ones. We usually have 3 or 4/5 or 5/6 to most guns and thus we continue to farm our asses off to get the last part.

What if we could buy these parts from a vendor in the HQ of our faction (if we had 100 sympathy) and they were available for huge amounts of money?

Right off the bat I can see one negative - buying the rare parts needed would kill the trading economy.

Ok so we set this price at 1m NC+ and this alleviates the problem of people buying an entire set of whichever gun they want. I do not know anyone who will pay 6m for a gun they might get 0 slots on.

The rare trading economy is now protected. People can still farm and trade as they did before but the fabulously wealthy/stupid players can buy a set of parts if they want to for that exorbitant amount or they can continue as before - trading and selling their parts to collect the majority but perhaps finally succumbing and coughing up 1m creds to get that last part they needed to complete a weapon.

Positives would include - removing a huge surplus of cash from the economy whilst at the same time allowing for player to player SALES and TRADES (part for part).

No one part would ever be worth more than any other now (you would hope) as parts would instantly have a capped value of money (1m credits) and the vendors get to suck money from out of the economy.

I remember a post a while back from Trivaldi talking about worthwhile and viable cash sinks. This (in my mind) would provide that cash sink perfectly.

In terms of new players also - over the course of a runners life - even as a brand spanking new player to the game they will amass a small personal fortune in credits. It is tough not to in nc. This sort of system would aid those players (particularly the ones with less time to farm) with getting their first, second or subsequent rare weapon. It would probably encourage some of them to pvp more (with the adequate tools).

It would probably help ALL of us get our fucking Special Forces chips... (please note the SF chip is now called a fucking special forces chip because it is so fucking rare :p)

It would appeal to casual gamers as well as hardcore ones. It is akin to a pay to win system without actually charging real money!

Having lots of money would now be useful at times rather than a chore!

[Kane Gregory]

Sorry I don't agree with u.
Rareparts are not any longer rare if they are buyable (however expensive they are). Currently there are enough chars who farm rareparts and trades with them. Items which are rare should be as rare that not every person can instantly equipped with them. Okay maybe u have to equip a few weeks another chip or carry another weapon with u but I think this is the original idea behind rare chips and weapons.

[Brammers]

Sorry don't like it. You would kill off the THN Rares DB :p

Jokes aside, still don't like it. The main reason as you pointed out, it would kill the trading and make existing rares and parts worthless.

[eNTi]

remove mob cash drops, make rare parts not drop that damn often. there's a player in thn rares db with over 14k rare parts. wtf? rare are actually not that rare.

[Arista Barret]

remove mob cash drops, make rare parts not drop that damn often. there's a player in thn rares db with over 14k rare parts. wtf? rare are actually not that rare.
Dude, some people live on cash drops. Agreed on making rares more rare. 14k parts, you should be happy for him if he wasnt an LE exploited farmer. He is probably a clan rare pool collector. Certain parts are rare, others more common. This may sound odd coming from me but you have to consider other peoples play styles (PvP first, Le's are cheats)

[Castr0]

I don't like the idea either, it would mess the economy.

[PsiCorps]

I think they should just alter the rare drop algorithm.
I know they deny that 'some rare parts are rarer than others' but it's complete nonsense.

We all know that each weapon has an intended RARER part than others (sometimes two).
People can link Terra drop percentages all you like.

But I'll direct them to 200 rare profiles with 100 of one part, 2 of another.

[Dropout]

I actually likes the idea. That way people would be able to get their (VERY) needed SF implants and such.
But maybe a pricetag of 2mil or so, would be more suitable.

About all the negative comments: As long as rare implants and weapons are as important as they are (with the current balancing anyways), there should be better ways of getting those.


@PsiCorps: This would be ideal yeah. There is just no way in hell, that the current rare drops are completely random lol.

[eNTi]

if people will be able to buy rare parts, you'll have diablo 3's auction house all over. people will find the most effective way of farming money and just buy all parts instead of going hunting.

[Faid]

I don't like this idea so much.

This will essentially kill the tech part trade, even with a high price tag per part. People won't trade for the garbage parts that already flood the market. The only parts that will be bought from this system are the actual rare ones (tech of SF - ATP of CS) ect. which will of course make them no longer rare.

I do think that rare parts should actually be rare, but the main problem is the amount of pointless rare parts in the pool. Literally 90% of the rare parts are garbage.

[Eternal Pink]

I like this idea as I've been trying for a part now for two weeks and nobody wants to sell regardless of the NC I offer and nobody wants to trade me the part either.

Though another fix would be to make a lot of the rare weapons actually worth using since part of the difficulty when looking for trades is there's only a few items per category that people actually want to use (nobody has yet come rushing to me asking for my 5 HP's of summer leach for example).

[William Antrim]

I agree wholeheartedly with your second paragraph Eternal Pink.

********** Warning LONG POST *****************************

I knew that this thread would receive some criticism and you guys have made some valid points. However I can counter these points with a higher price tag in many respects. What if the parts were 5m each? Think about the process for a moment rather than instant dismissal.

We would need to assume that as Eternal Pink pointed out that in an ideal world many more weapons were viable than currently are. The balancing project (that has already started with the disruptor nerf) would be complete.

THN DB would not get killed as people would still farm for their rares because it would be a lot easier to come by a single unressed rare part than 5m credits. They would still store their ressed parts there as they would gamble that they could either trade their parts unressed for the one they want or have them ressed to get lucky and find the one they need.

The excess would then retain some value to someone as these weapons are now viable and working as intended. So therefore they would need a place to be stored.

So the runner in the example goes out and farms another 20 parts - he gets 2 or 3 of the ones he wants and he makes some cash in the meantime. With a huge cost he could actually choose the part he needs and help him complete his weapon much faster. This is only going to be a benefit to the player and therefore a benefit to the game.


Enti in order to counter that problem we would have to nerf the shit out of the El Farid cash drops from mobs. This however I am sure could be done. We would have to stop the tronik parts selling for so much money too I think (or make other alternatives available dropping from every mob and use this as the most effective get rich quick method which can be tracked).

Psicorps they have said that the rare drop is ok as it is. Some people who know more about maths than I do have said it is random. I am in the same thoughts as you - there are parts that ARE rarer but I guess we have no access behind the scenes.

Faid people wont trade for the garbage parts anyway because theyre shit weapons. That will not be affected by these changes. For that to happen, you would need as Eternal Pink suggested, to make more weapons viable. That will come in the balancing project.


I ask all of you in this thread - why should rare parts be rare? What benefit is there to anyone?

The Le'd crowd will need to farm even more for their weapons as opposed to being able to complete a few that much earlier (and therefore more chance to get the uber 5 slotters! I can only assume that this is the endgame for the Le'd) and the non-le'd crowd can get more all arti guns to wage war on the rest of the server.

If you make rare weapons more rare it just means more grinding for the same thing endlessly, more disappointment in another batch of parts and building more weapons that you dont want. This leads to more disappointment, more boredom and eventually the move to find other more exciting things to do, like other games.

Having the chance to complete more guns sooner however gives the short term goals and good feeling of a quick win (albeit with a 5m nc price tag) and a shot at getting that 5 slot weapon sooner. It also places a clearly defined, measurable and achievable goal to the farming. E.g

"Ok tonight I farmed for 5 hours and yeah I got 3 or 4 of my 5 parts I need for X gun but I also made 500k towards the 5m nc I need to get that last part".

So this guy now has a choice. He can farm more rares for the next week hoping to get that last part or he can farm another 4.5m (pretty easily doable in a few days really) and then he can have a go at building that weapon.

It doesnt matter which crowd he belongs to (le'd or not) he achieves the same goal and receives the same reward.

It is rewards that keep people playing MMO's - not the grind.

[netster]

On Monday someone wanted to buy the CS rarest tech for 15mil, so where is the point on rare and extreme rare. There should be some jokertechs :(

[Doc Holliday]

I love how people are have dictionaries stuck up their asses. This is why the devs should, at times, blatantly ignore some of the stuff that people post on these forums.

Rares. Its a word. No "Rare" is that rare. It never has been. Its been a term coined to signify the next tier of weaponry after what can be be bought from a vendor and then woc is the third tier.

When some of you get that thought in to your heads then you are more easily able to discuss what is essentially a decent idea.

Cash sinks work. It would probably also clean up some of the database as peoples 5 unassembled sets find that sixth set and then get turned in to that amazing 0 slot weapon that gets vended at yo's.

It would be a form of gambling almost.

Now. For you close minded fools who say oh no it will kill the rare collecting economy. I stand here and say no it will not. Categorically state NO it will not. Im sorry but the majority of this community that actively play the game dont do it for pvp anymore. Thats evident by the amount of LE threads, LE bashing and general dissent towards the LE.

The obvious logical progression of this is that if people keep said chip in then it aint pvp they are doing. Its PVE. Which involves rare collecting. Farming for parts. Some people (myself included) actually enjoyed doing this and seeing what i had collected when i got a decent amount. I always enjoyed ressing my own techs as it was like a sub game and gave as much fun sometimes as dropping someone in an opfight and infinitely more relaxing. Humans by nature are hunter gatherers and this is an extension of that. As mentioned the amount of people in this game who do solely pve would still keep the rare economy afloat.

Secondly the knock on effect is that cash would become more rare again and people would save to accumulate cash in order to be able to afford the guns etc. 2m-3m etc for a part would be interesting. The most rare ones could have an algorithm tied to it to heighten the price as demand is heightened even. (suggestion purely) this reflects the concept of demand pulling up the price. like a real economy. Conversely you could have parts that arent bought so often fall in price over time. Fluctuating prices. could be polled on a weekly basis. again just a thought.

Besides. if your going out to try and make a load of money and level your char why would you not go hunting tech parts if you could. If your aiming for leveling and making some money to buy the parts and you are not a braindead moron you are going to double down and hunt tech part dropping mobs or am i the one whose the braindead moron.

seriously i read all the naysayers and i wish you would just actually think a little bit deeper about whats good for this game rather than coming up with short sighted denials or dissuasion of what is a perfectly good idea.

[eNTi]

blizzard thought the auction house was a good idea, because since people are hunters and gatherers they will go and hunt instead of collecting cash from vase drops, right? wrong... and that should make clear why this is not a good idea. it would simply make some rare parts, that are actually meant to be rarer than others, easily obtainable. this on the other hand would flood the market with an influx of cheap high end weapons. already rarely used weapons would never see any form of usage any more. this would make the current balancing issues even worse.

[demonssword]

This on the other hand would flood the market with an influx of cheap high end weapons. already rarely used weapons would never see any form of usage any more. this would make the current balancing issues even worse.

No surely it would bring more balance as everyone would be using the same things as everyone would have plenty of access to everything. The trouble would be that it would lead the game in to a situation like in WoW that everyone looks the same and has all the same stuff because its 'Best'. This would of course allow the devs to tweek other weapons though until such time as people see a point in using these other weapons that they currently don't use. Though of course theorycrafters are a bit rare in this game, a few people work out optimal setups and things like. "If I have gun X in slot 1, gun Y in 2, and Z in 3. Then I can fire X number of shots and manually reload 2 of the 3 of them to maximise my damage on people and only have to stop for 1-2 seconds max. Rather than reload for 1.5seconds on each gun."

[Eternal Pink]

blizzard thought the auction house was a good idea, because since people are hunters and gatherers they will go and hunt instead of collecting cash from vase drops, right? wrong... and that should make clear why this is not a good idea. it would simply make some rare parts, that are actually meant to be rarer than others, easily obtainable. this on the other hand would flood the market with an influx of cheap high end weapons. already rarely used weapons would never see any form of usage any more. this would make the current balancing issues even worse.
Ewww WoW example.

Okay now that's done, in WoW if you wanted to compete in PvP they made it incredibly easy to do so by grinding battlefields for honor and then using that honor to buy PvP gear (the purples with the resilience) since without that PvP gear you would get 1 shot by the first person you met and then they added in another grind which was the arena which again you needed PvP gear to compete but you already had that from grinding battlefields so while someone in arena gear had an advantage you still stood a chance (unlike the poor dude with no resilience who got critted for his entire health).

You knew the price and you could work out how many you need to do to reach a target and then actually do what you wanted to do.

In NC if you want a rare weapon to compete (I'm yet to see any challenges for store brought fights - when I played before peeps would boast how they could beat someone using inferior gear and for bragging rights they would actually go do that) in PvP then you need to find the parts which could take anything from 5/6 WB kills and you being incredibly lucky to months worth of grinding if you aren't.

[eNTi]

Ewww WoW example.
actually, i was referring to diablo 3 and their self inflicted RMAH.

[Eternal Pink]

the auction house wasn't new to diablo 3. The only thing new about it was that you could use real money to buy stuff ingame from other players via the auction system was my understanding of it (not played diablo 3 so I might be wrong but that's what I read about it)

The original idea is for NC money to be used not real money (i.e like the WoW auction system when I played)

[Powerpunsh]

Hmm im not quite fine with the idea. Also think about it with increasing the rarepartvalues on 1m. Means in reverse they can be sold for 1/10 of the price at YOs or even the trader who sells them. :p

Jokerparts would be fine. =)

[William Antrim]

Fluctuation in prices whilst appealing sounds complicated to code. Id rather stick to set prices.

[Dribble Joy]

I like the fact that some parts are rarer than others. However I don't like just how rare they are or the fact it clogs the database with useless parts.

My suggestion would be to increase the chance of those rarer parts to around 50% of the others for an item and increase the value of parts at Yo's, so unwanted parts could be sold off at a reasonable price (though that of course would be the opposite of a cash sink, but then there are so many avenues for cash sinks left unexplored).

[William Antrim]

I like the fact that some parts are rarer than others. However I don't like just how rare they are or the fact it clogs the database with useless parts.

My suggestion would be to increase the chance of those rarer parts to around 50% of the others for an item and increase the value of parts at Yo's, so unwanted parts could be sold off at a reasonable price (though that of course would be the opposite of a cash sink, but then there are so many avenues for cash sinks left unexplored).


This is the entire reason why I DO NOT like the current system.

[Doc Holliday]

I like the fact that some parts are rarer than others. However I don't like just how rare they are or the fact it clogs the database with useless parts.



your the only person who does.

besides. its all random. there is not a specific rare in each batch that is more rare than others. its ALL random apparently.....

[eNTi]

your the only person who does.

besides. its all random. there is not a specific rare in each batch that is more rare than others. its ALL random apparently.....
he's not the only person and he's also right in this respect. based on my own observation and comparisons of the rare lists on th.org of some of the people who got a lot more than me (14k from zarten's for example) i conclude a certain distribution of the probabilities. if you look in the trade channel, people will always ask to trade for the same parts of specific items as well.

[SynC_187]

The big problem I can see is a xx/40 droner can make millions in El Farid in a single night. You make me farm and trade for rares, getting to the end game where I have all the equipment I need takes a while. You let me buy them, then rather than hunt rares, I'm going to farm El Farid for a week and buy everything I need in one go.

In NC1 I farmed Warbots for months with my APU. I got everything I needed and what I had left funded everything I wanted for the rest of my time playing. I'm aware that drops are lower now, but there are people achieving this still.

Adding a cash sink is fair enough, but not at the cost of a time sink! People want more endgame content to keep interest in the game after cap, yet this would cause them to get to that endgame point faster.

The main point seems to be that 1 part is a lot harder to get than the rest. If that is the case, even out the drops and the reason for this goes away. I know people say the official stance has always been that the drops are all the same chance, but if statistics prove otherwise, then maybe there is a bug that needs addressing.

[Eternal Pink]

he's not the only person and he's also right in this respect. based on my own observation and comparisons of the rare lists on th.org of some of the people who got a lot more than me (14k from zarten's for example) i conclude a certain distribution of the probabilities. if you look in the trade channel, people will always ask to trade for the same parts of specific items as well.

I only have about 180 rares yet there are some I now have stacks of 5 of and plenty that I don't have any of at all.

My 5 HP's of summer leach are unlikely to ever change (well other than upwards if I get more) since nobody will want to buy/trade for them so you most likely have the same on the people with thousands of rare's since the ones that are actually used will have been constructed/traded for other desired parts and its just the useless dross that collect.

So bearing all that in mind I don't think comparing peeps TH rare list will provide a very reliable set of stats.

[William Antrim]

Good point made Eternal Pink. The last part I mean.

As for the El Farid stuff. I am a firm believer that that dungeon needs nerfing. Personally I would take away the tertiary cash drops from the tiny little spiders or stop the bigger ones spawning so many. I think the XP gain in there is great but getting rid of so much of the money is better.

As for your point about time sinks.... (sync_187) this game has run since August 2002 (in retail) and many of us here capped in months or weeks, not years. Yet we still play.

Why do you think that is? There is no time sink here at all in my mind. Sorry but I do not see how that point is a negative.

[eNTi]

I only have about 180 rares yet there are some I now have stacks of 5 of and plenty that I don't have any of at all.

My 5 HP's of summer leach are unlikely to ever change (well other than upwards if I get more) since nobody will want to buy/trade for them so you most likely have the same on the people with thousands of rare's since the ones that are actually used will have been constructed/traded for other desired parts and its just the useless dross that collect.

So bearing all that in mind I don't think comparing peeps TH rare list will provide a very reliable set of stats.
what? how do come to that conclusion. please use deduction because simply stating something doesn't make it true. if you look at the REMAINING rare parts it clearly shows, that some are just not available, otherwise all items would have been made. yet even the insanely popular dissy shows lots of leftover parts. the only reason why there's so little of the other rare parts left (compared to other rare part sets) is, because people will actively looking for those rarer parts in trade much more than lets say from an executioner, which isn't even get built at all, because no one is using them.

[Eternal Pink]

what? how do come to that conclusion. please use deduction because simply stating something doesn't make it true. if you look at the REMAINING rare parts it clearly shows, that some are just not available, otherwise all items would have been made. yet even the insanely popular dissy shows lots of leftover parts. the only reason why there's so little of the other rare parts left (compared to other rare part sets) is, because people will actively looking for those rarer parts in trade much more than lets say from an executioner, which isn't even get built at all, because no one is using them.

Simple maths dude.

You get 10 rare parts, you res 10 rare parts for the sake of argument you get 5 rare's that people use (cs, rav,creed,dissy,SH) and 5 rare parts that nobody uses (summer leech, oblit, drone parts)

You trade/sell/construct with the parts that people use which takes you down to 0 used rares and you still have 5 dross rares.

As nobody will buy the dross rares or trade for the dross rares or do anything with the dross rares they sit on your rare list till the end of time where as the used rares don't.

If they are not on the list then you are not going to see them to count them now are you as the TH rare list does not keep a record of what rares you have had, take a look at mine if you like and you'll see I have 2 doom beamer parts listed (Comps if anyone wants to trade :) ) so does that mean I've only ever got 2 doom beamer parts or that in the past I acquired a full set and built it?

[HkyPnky]

x2 bad idea

[eNTi]

Simple maths dude.

You get 10 rare parts, you res 10 rare parts for the sake of argument you get 5 rare's that people use (cs, rav,creed,dissy,SH) and 5 rare parts that nobody uses (summer leech, oblit, drone parts)

You trade/sell/construct with the parts that people use which takes you down to 0 used rares and you still have 5 dross rares.

that doesn't explain why you are left with a lot of parts of one specific item, that everybody uses. and why many people sit on the same parts. by your logic you must be able to build almost all (used) rare items by simply trading for the other parts. if everyone got another distribution in drop chances or in fact if everyone got almost the same distribution on all parts, a few parts traded here and there will leave you with no to very little spares. but that's imply not the case.

[Eternal Pink]

So to clarify your not talking about the actual type of rare itself (i.e which weapon/imp it is) but your saying that the chance of a HP,FP,TP,CP,OP and ATP if relevant is biased?

And you've reached this by looking at peoples distribution (i.e...)

Item TL Tech Hull Frame Core Comp

Ray of God 98 4 0 2 3 4

from a dude with 1k rares

Item TL Tech Hull Frame Core Comp

Ray of God 98 6 4 2 10 21

from a dude with 2k rares.

That's your point?

[Grogor]

I'd say that's the point everyone is after. How biased a rare compared to another rare is is very difficult to track, since, as stated correctly, you trade and built. So TH won't have any good numbers on those. But the parts of one rare are different. Let's look at rares that are very suitable for such an analysis: Melee weapons. Nobody really trades those parts and they are hardly built. Looking on the rare list of my clan the Peacemaker looks like this:
15 100 12 22 21
We've built one or two, but never traded parts in or out.
Let's look at some other rarepools, same weapon.
6 22 3 4 7
9 10 3 3 3
27 201 42 31 62
6 102 15 7 19

So probability is a bitch and it only says something if you tried infinite times, But as it seems the HP of the Peacemaker is somewhat not equally distributed among those parts. So even if it's intended to be random, even if it seems to be implemented to be random, the figures imply, that it may be not that random as it should be.
And now to the interesting part, if it happens with the peacemaker, what about the other rares?

[Enrico Pallazzo]

how about salvage rares to get a certain one?

take 1x Tech, Hull, Frame, Core, Comp from the Judge and get the Add.Tech. Make up some recipes or something like that

[eNTi]

So to clarify your not talking about the actual type of rare itself (i.e which weapon/imp it is) but your saying that the chance of a HP,FP,TP,CP,OP and ATP if relevant is biased?

And you've reached this by looking at peoples distribution (i.e...)

Item TL Tech Hull Frame Core Comp

Ray of God 98 4 0 2 3 4

from a dude with 1k rares

Item TL Tech Hull Frame Core Comp

Ray of God 98 6 4 2 10 21

from a dude with 2k rares.

That's your point?
yes. so have we got our wires crossed (i looked that on up on leo!) the whole time?


how about salvage rares to get a certain one?

take 1x Tech, Hull, Frame, Core, Comp from the Judge and get the Add.Tech. Make up some recipes or something like that
uuuuh i like this idea. but it would have to be (mostly) random and the salvage skill required should follow the same principle as other trade skills. this could be a real killer. people would feed their rare parts to the slot machine and high level salvaging would see an advent. there could even be hidden factors, like if you combine atp of creed + tp of holy thunderstorm you are more likely to get the hull of cs or something. weird recipes like that. i'd love that!

[Eternal Pink]

I'd say that's the point everyone is after. How biased a rare compared to another rare is is very difficult to track, since, as stated correctly, you trade and built. So TH won't have any good numbers on those. But the parts of one rare are different. Let's look at rares that are very suitable for such an analysis: Melee weapons. Nobody really trades those parts and they are hardly built. Looking on the rare list of my clan the Peacemaker looks like this:
15 100 12 22 21
We've built one or two, but never traded parts in or out.
Let's look at some other rarepools, same weapon.
6 22 3 4 7
9 10 3 3 3
27 201 42 31 62
6 102 15 7 19

So probability is a bitch and it only says something if you tried infinite times, But as it seems the HP of the Peacemaker is somewhat not equally distributed among those parts. So even if it's intended to be random, even if it seems to be implemented to be random, the figures imply, that it may be not that random as it should be.
And now to the interesting part, if it happens with the peacemaker, what about the other rares?

I took a quick look at probability on this yesterday but there are some bits of info I don't know to work it properly, if for the sake of argument we pretend all rares parts come from the same type of rare (they don't but it makes the maths easy) the odds of getting any one part would be 1 out of 416 (or 0.24% if you prefer percentages) as there are 416 different rare parts in total.

Its not that simple though as we have L T and E rare parts and you can only get certain pieces from a certain type so i'd need to work out in total how many L parts there and T parts and so on unless somebody happens to have that to hand :)

[William Antrim]

If more guns were made viable more rares would be in demand.