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Alduin
24-04-13, 00:09
Cheers runners,

feel free to discuss the current testserver patch here. The corresponding patch notes may be found here (http://forum.neocron-game.com/showthread.php?150190-T-185-186-PTS-Patch-Notes).

Slauncha,
Alduin

Massaker
24-04-13, 00:31
Sounds nice. Good work Devs :)

A few ideas for Pepper Park sector. Why not bring back the old guards in PP1 and PP2?
For example. In Pepper Park the factions earn their money with prostitution and drugs. Why not transfer the security to Trsunami and Black Dragon like in Neocron 1? Bring back the old Tsunami guards with the flame trower ;)

I miss the old guards in front of the headquater which came to you and swear you with drawing their guns (plasma pistols). That was really nice and if your faction symp was less than -10 the guards shot at you.

That's one suggestion. What do you think about this?

Faid
24-04-13, 00:42
This looks very promising I can't wait to test this patch out :)

Strife
24-04-13, 01:22
I don't see the point in shitting on negative SL characters even further. So you accidentally go negative SL in Pepperpark then you cant use your apt lift or GR away? You're forced to drop your rare weapon you spent weeks/months trying to obtain because you attacked someone trying to kill you? This is absolutely absurd. Why punish people for pvp even further?

EDIT: I rather enjoy playing my negative SL character(droner) and doing something that strays from the norm. It's risky and people absolutely love to hunt you down. I've lost so much gear from it, probably 2 million NC in stealth tools alone. I'd absolutely love to play a red SL tank or spy, but the massively harsh reality of losing months of work in gear makes it not worth it. I haven't killed anyone that wasn't engaged in PvP. I'm not a griefing pker just because i'm red. I shouldn't be forced to play a goody nice guy. Stop restricting game-play and broaden it. In beta we had the pker's, and we tracked and hunted them down all throughout the outzone. It's some of my fondest memories from beta, and I can still list nearly all ~10 pkers from that era.

You guys can't get the hint when players move the copbots into the pool in Plaza2? We want a place to be able to fight/spar with a safe-zone nearby, as has been NC tradition for over 10 years. We op fight when we can, and we duel when there's no op fights. It's obvious what we want, and you're going out of your way to stop it. We've suggested the game brought back to how it used to be with Plaza3 being safe and pp1 being the pvp hotspot, with no comment from what i've seen.

Sorry for language, I really appreciate you guys spending your personal time working on the game, but this "Anti-PvP" patch is just in my opinion a bad idea.


Constructive suggestions:
Make the GR/Apt lift restrictions for Plaza/Via only.
With the new ability to create safe-zones, make Plaza3 safe and add benches near the PP1 zoneline.

LeoPump
24-04-13, 01:38
Ok, tested on Testserver.

The Message "damn! locked" if you have - SL is confusing.. Maybe you can change it?
Like: "No Outlaw Support"

PsiCorps
24-04-13, 01:46
SNIP

I agree with this.
There's barely enough 'RED' activity to justify this whatsoever.

I've gone negative SL plenty of times due to the lacking in the WAR system between clans.
(IE there are clans we are at war with, and cannot declare it through city term to prevent SL loss, like originally intended).

Why should I then be punished and restricted to idling in my APP so I can GR/Op War/Buy stuff?

With the stability of clients/new anti idling methods, gaining SL the good old hard way of sitting in outzone/your APP will be the only viable method.

(unless I get a PPU to sit on me whilst my own faction guards shoot at me and do missions.).

VERY ill thought out Dev team, nice to see you've skimmed the brainport once again.

Kanedax
24-04-13, 01:48
Finally, a dissy nerf!

Massaker
24-04-13, 01:50
An other thing I miss is the HEW Trader in Plaza 2. There are so many Crytons shops and only one-two HEW shops. Is it possible to change the Crytons shop into a HEW shop?

HkyPnky
24-04-13, 01:51
I don't see the point in shitting on negative SL characters even further. So you accidentally go negative SL in Pepperpark then you cant use your apt lift or GR away? You're forced to drop your rare weapon you spent weeks/months trying to obtain because you attacked someone trying to kill you? This is absolutely absurd. Why punish people for pvp even further?

EDIT: I rather enjoy playing my negative SL character(droner) and doing something that strays from the norm. It's risky and people absolutely love to hunt you down. I've lost so much gear from it, probably 2 million NC in stealth tools alone. I'd absolutely love to play a red SL tank or spy, but the massively harsh reality of losing months of work in gear makes it not worth it. I haven't killed anyone that wasn't engaged in PvP. I'm not a griefing pker just because i'm red. I shouldn't be forced to play a goody nice guy. Stop restricting game-play and broaden it. In beta we had the pker's, and we tracked and hunted them down all throughout the outzone. It's some of my fondest memories from beta, and I can still list nearly all ~10 pkers from that era.

You guys can't get the hint when players move the copbots into the pool in Plaza2? We want a place to be able to fight/spar with a safe-zone nearby, as has been NC tradition for over 10 years. We op fight when we can, and we duel when there's no op fights. It's obvious what we want, and you're going out of your way to stop it. We've suggested the game brought back to how it used to be with Plaza3 being safe and pp1 being the pvp hotspot, with no comment from what i've seen.

Sorry for language, I really appreciate you guys spending your personal time working on the game, but this "Anti-PvP" patch is just in my opinion a bad idea.


Constructive suggestions:
Make the GR/Apt lift restrictions for Plaza/Via only.
With the new ability to create safe-zones, make Plaza3 safe and add benches near the PP1 zoneline.


Edit #2. Not sure an AK nerf is really needed, not by 25% anyway.

-32 soulight accidentally?

o_O something smells fishy o_O

Strife
24-04-13, 01:58
-32 soulight accidentally?

o_O something smells fishy o_OKilling same faction on accident when you're like -5, yeah.

PsiCorps
24-04-13, 02:12
Killing same faction on accident when you're like -5, yeah.

Ally not in team, accidentally clip him during fighting.
He's at 100 SL.

You're going to have a bad time.

PsiCorps
24-04-13, 02:14
[ edited ]

LeoPump
24-04-13, 02:34
- SL: Only Safezone / Safezone Appartment is bad for you.
If you got a Appartment in PP3 (or another Non-Safezone) everything is okay.

Fine, no GR sucks, but you can still idle in your Appartment (in Non-Safezones) and you can pk in other zones, like Viarosso, Pepper Park.
Or you idle in your Faction DNS - this is still possible (to hack GR to access Hacknet).

Maybe it's possible to set up these restrictions to - SL of 50 or 70? :)

Kanedax
24-04-13, 06:11
I always saw red sl as an encouragement to not be too much of a dick/be careful where you shoot. If you can't handle getting shit on for being a low sl guy then don't be low sl.

Doc Holliday
24-04-13, 06:27
Not sure about the neg sl rules disallowing gr stuff but as for the rest of it wow. what a patch. I am totally up for some testing at some stage this week.

Thank you for this one. You may have actually encouraged me back to play some more. testing first though ;)

PS. on the sl drop thing. Killing an npc whos green will drop you a looooooooooong way down too. just saying.

Totally random thought but i can only imagine a barbie car cruising the wastes with 2 red sl peeps inside looking to kill people. Mickey and Mallory anyone? ;)

CritiNator
24-04-13, 07:42
Good looking patch. I will definitely join testing.

Hammer
24-04-13, 07:53
WEAPON BALANCE
Damage output of the TL115 Disruptor lowered by 35% to compensate for aggressive burst bonus.
Damage output of the TL113 Ceres Assault Rifle CAR-47 and the TL108 Infiltration Assault Rifle IAR-47 lowered by 25% to compensate for aggressive burst bonus.

das muss mir mal kurz wer erklären wie genau das gemeint ist. also generell wird der dmg reduziert (35% dissi und 25% ak`s), ABER gleichzeitig kommt neuer "Burst" dmg dazu? versteh ich nicht ganz wie das sich auswirkt, die ganzen waffen hatten doch bisher quasie eh nur "Burst" dmg, es sei denn man moddedte die AK zB mit nem gift mod der noch stackte ?! Oder steh ich völlig auf der Leitung?
Hat das schon wer getestet wie sich das nun verhält und wie die waffen nun einzuordnen sind im vergleich zu vorher?

Ansonsten lesen sich die Patchnotes super!

Strife
24-04-13, 08:24
If you can't handle getting shit on for being a low sl guy then don't be low sl.What an absolutely stupid argument.

nabbl
24-04-13, 08:31
I don't see the point in shitting on negative SL characters even further. So you accidentally go negative SL in Pepperpark then you cant use your apt lift or GR away? You're forced to drop your rare weapon you spent weeks/months trying to obtain because you attacked someone trying to kill you? This is absolutely absurd. Why punish people for pvp even further?

EDIT: I rather enjoy playing my negative SL character(droner) and doing something that strays from the norm. It's risky and people absolutely love to hunt you down. I've lost so much gear from it, probably 2 million NC in stealth tools alone. I'd absolutely love to play a red SL tank or spy, but the massively harsh reality of losing months of work in gear makes it not worth it. I haven't killed anyone that wasn't engaged in PvP. I'm not a griefing pker just because i'm red. I shouldn't be forced to play a goody nice guy. Stop restricting game-play and broaden it. In beta we had the pker's, and we tracked and hunted them down all throughout the outzone. It's some of my fondest memories from beta, and I can still list nearly all ~10 pkers from that era.

You guys can't get the hint when players move the copbots into the pool in Plaza2? We want a place to be able to fight/spar with a safe-zone nearby, as has been NC tradition for over 10 years. We op fight when we can, and we duel when there's no op fights. It's obvious what we want, and you're going out of your way to stop it. We've suggested the game brought back to how it used to be with Plaza3 being safe and pp1 being the pvp hotspot, with no comment from what i've seen.

Sorry for language, I really appreciate you guys spending your personal time working on the game, but this "Anti-PvP" patch is just in my opinion a bad idea.


Constructive suggestions:
Make the GR/Apt lift restrictions for Plaza/Via only.
With the new ability to create safe-zones, make Plaza3 safe and add benches near the PP1 zoneline.

Well Strife.. You may missed something:

"Access to Apartment Access Interfaces in safe zones requires Runners to have -31 Soul Light or higher."

Why don't you just get an appartment in Pepper Park? You wouldn't have a problem there.

nabbl
24-04-13, 08:33
Edited- Cause of stupidity

@Hammer:

Vor ein paar Jahren wurde ein patch eingeführt, weil die Dissy und eigentlich alle Burst Waffen zu schwach waren. Allerdings ist der damals eingebaute Burst Bonus zu hoch ausgefallen.
Denke sie haben das jetzt ein bisschen abgeschwächt.

SilentEye
24-04-13, 08:37
I can't help but giggle <3


Preventative measures have been installed to prevent CopBots falling into the pool in Plaza Sector 2.
CopBots have been removed from Pepper Park Sectors 1, 2 & 3.
An attempt to bring PVP back to PP and I hear barely any cheers. Woohoo! This is as it should be! <3

eNTi
24-04-13, 09:25
the sl fixes might be in preparation of a broader balancing effort to reduce the impact of the le maybe? it's in testing and pvp focused players should use this opportunity to give constructive feedback. p2 was never intended to be a dueling area. what's so hard to understand there? new players running around in p2/aggi cellar without le would have no chance to every reach their destination. pp is getting a much welcome pvp come back and you just complain that the supposed safer zones in the center of neocron are made somewhat safe again. i think p2 was broken and should never had the status it has now. if you are below 0 sl you are probably an outlaw and choose to be. going below -31 sl by accident seems to be a long stretch.

i understand that you want a place to fight and train and i think that might be good feedback, if you provided some ideas as to how and where to implement that? i guess the devs would welcome some creative and constructive indepth feedback in the brainport on this matter.

also: +1 on the patch.

Tenchiro
24-04-13, 09:50
Sounds great but: whats up with the kami drones? Any changes? :> If not: welcome to droner wars!

Hammer
24-04-13, 10:20
Edited- Cause of stupidity

@Hammer:

Vor ein paar Jahren wurde ein patch eingeführt, weil die Dissy und eigentlich alle Burst Waffen zu schwach waren. Allerdings ist der damals eingebaute Burst Bonus zu hoch ausgefallen.
Denke sie haben das jetzt ein bisschen abgeschwächt.

ok das wusste ichnicht. bin ich mal gespannt, ich finde die 25% gerade bei der kleinen ak gewaltig

SilentEye
24-04-13, 10:41
Also, I think it is great that AFK'ers can now be logged out in leveling area's and also logging out resets your position to the beginning of a cave!

Zoltan
24-04-13, 10:58
Regarding the new SL System:

You can be a badass all the time but be a badass who accept all consequences too. The soullight became a useless number in the old system. Accidentally killed faction members or friends? Why not use the team function? Its always annoying for the most people to get ganked by a "friendly" runner, they are loose stuff too.

There is no place for carebear-badasses ;)

demonssword
24-04-13, 12:30
Accidentally killed faction members or friends? Why not use the team function?

Make the team function be able to have enough people in it then maybe we could :P (I know there is a way to get more than the normal amount of people in team but its cheating). Also I would say put in something to count same clan as team for the purpose of SL loss then so you don't accidently hit a friend with AOE then someone else kills him you get your SL taken away.

I can also see some griefers going around in mixed teams of people from multiple factions just trying to get hit by random shots to get peoples SL down.
So for instance you know a war in p2 is going on between STD (BT) and SOAD (TG) if you wanted to greif you could go down there with a CA or PP or BT to grief the STD or a FA or CS or TG to grief the SOAD. With the new Soul Light penalties meaning they cant GR anywhere they could then try to make sure that they couldn't defend their own ops with characters.

Also make SL easier to recover from might need to be in order. Maybe donate money to the local war orphans fund rather than have you run kill 5 rat missions for a day.

So either way my take on the changes.

Gene Replication Network Soul Light : Seems a little harsh for those who accidently get in to bad soul light, could they however use hacknet? Also surely if their own clan actually owns the op they are Gene Repping from and to then they aren't going to lock themselves out of it or from your own Generep in your own apartment what I'm sure you will have placed shiney toys on it to make it work for you.
I don't know any LORE reason why the Gene Reps wouldn't work for someone with bad Soul Light, but if you want to make them have restrictions, maybe have them have to have something like the hacknet code breakers to use it, so it uses one every time you try to use the GR to go somewhere.

Venture Warp Network Soul Light : Don't think anyway cares, but once again maybe have a couple of Venture warps that are free for anyone to use like maybe the one in PP3.

Vendors in safe zones Soul Light : Sounds ok to me, though I think they will just get friends to buy there ammo and sell their stuff at Yo's if they want.

Apartment Access Interfaces in safe zones Soul Light : So this is for P1 only I think? I don't know of any other apartments in safezones. But in combo with the above change of not being able to use your own GR then I think this will make life interesting for a while.


Damage for Dissy, CAR-47 & IAR-47 : Almost everyone is complaining each of these are to powerful in comparision to other rifles, pistols, heavy weapons... so maybe this will bring them in line and we will see people using other weapons more frequently again. Though with the currently broken stealth tool, it will likely mean all those rifle spys will swap to tanks so they have higher resists and health if the creed is still pumping out good damage.


New hit box colouring for clan mates : Awesome and was needed for a while. Fighting green on green was a pain, though I would also like to see that rather than when you hover over someone the name slowly scrolls on the screen that it is instantly there.

Gamemasters setting safezones : Again another new toy to play with, BUT will this conflict with the new Soul Light rules? So for instance for some random reason you make P2 a safezone for a couple of hours. Will all the -32 Soul Light people not be able to use their apartments while you have locked it down.

Gamemasters setting zones to automatically log out players idling : Again much needed, as you cant be there 24/7 and some caves get blocked.
It would be interesting to see how long the idle time is and in combo with the Gamemasters setting zones to spawn players at the reset point after logging out, will people who currently AFK in the corner at the bottom of Regants be thrown to the top so instead will hide behind the boxes in the 2nd level.
Also makes it more interesting for Ceres Labs and DoY tunnels, where people would often leave a character in a cleared out version of the previous level to make sure they had a place they could retreat to and heal up. If they are then going to have to move the character every 5 mins or so then they may be annoyed by this.

Additional CopBots in Plaza Sector 1 & 2 : Good to have more of them there, it might just end up moving the action somewhere else though.

City Administration guards are stationed outside of City Administration HQ. Enemy runners will be shot on sight. : What about other faction guards then like Black Dragons, TSU, PP, TT, BT and all that, don't they get to shoot enemy clans walking outside their doors?

CopBots falling into the pool in Plaza Sector 2 stopped : Good, it was stupid that they always wanted to go swimming.

CopBots removed from PP 1, 2 & 3 : As someone else said, who are they being replaced with? surely one of the many gangs there would try to take over keeping the peace, for a fist full of credits and influence of course.

William Antrim
24-04-13, 12:59
I would like to see some solid proposals to easily regain the SL lost if these changes are implemented. I also think that Oz Apt and Pepper Park apts should not be a part of this rule.


If there are no Copbots in Pepper Park who enforces the law that you cannot enter the apartment with bad SL. The only people who control Real Estate in Pepper Park is the Black Dragons. They would not give a fuck about Red SL tbh. They would probably promote you!


For this to work there needs to be an area where red sl people CAN go. IE the Jail. There need to be missions there to recoup some of the lost soul light (albeit slowly) and possibly some form of Apartment access for people who want to have Red SL and can afford to play their char in that way (IE have an apartment there for storage of stealth tools and weaponry - like Strife mentioned).

Trivaldi
24-04-13, 13:05
I would like to see some solid proposals to easily regain the SL lost if these changes are implemented. I also think that Oz Apt and Pepper Park apts should not be a part of this rule.


If there are no Copbots in Pepper Park who enforces the law that you cannot enter the apartment with bad SL. The only people who control Real Estate in Pepper Park is the Black Dragons. They would not give a fuck about Red SL tbh. They would probably promote you!


For this to work there needs to be an area where red sl people CAN go. IE the Jail. There need to be missions there to recoup some of the lost soul light (albeit slowly) and possibly some form of Apartment access for people who want to have Red SL and can afford to play their char in that way (IE have an apartment there for storage of stealth tools and weaponry - like Strife mentioned).
Please re-read the patch notes.

Access to Apartment Access Interfaces in safe zones requires Runners to have -31 Soul Light or higher.
If you have negative SL, there's plenty of space for you to live in Pepper Park and the Outzone.

nabbl
24-04-13, 13:20
I would like to see some solid proposals to easily regain the SL lost if these changes are implemented. I also think that Oz Apt and Pepper Park apts should not be a part of this rule.


If there are no Copbots in Pepper Park who enforces the law that you cannot enter the apartment with bad SL. The only people who control Real Estate in Pepper Park is the Black Dragons. They would not give a fuck about Red SL tbh. They would probably promote you!


For this to work there needs to be an area where red sl people CAN go. IE the Jail. There need to be missions there to recoup some of the lost soul light (albeit slowly) and possibly some form of Apartment access for people who want to have Red SL and can afford to play their char in that way (IE have an apartment there for storage of stealth tools and weaponry - like Strife mentioned).

But you can use your appartment in Pepper Park and so on?!
They said SAFEZONE Appartments!

Edit: what triv said ... -.-

(you sir are more awesome)

demonssword
24-04-13, 13:26
But you can use your appartment in Pepper Park and so on?!
They said SAFEZONE Appartments!

Edit: what triv said ... -.-

(you sir are more awesome)

And in fact you also said it higher up the page as did I. You have to love the rage train that can only read the first 2-3 words of any line of text and proceed to explode about them :P
Also people need to take the time to read other peoples posts... especially mine as they are long and boring, but full of wisdom and insight :P. (my bet will be not even 1 page down there will be a TL:DR about this or my other post :P.)

William Antrim
24-04-13, 14:54
No rage train here. I just skipped over the initial post as it is the middle of my day and I was on a lunch break and reading faster than normal. I thought that it made more sense to have this happen in safe zones so yes that is all good. It is simply a misread on my part. my bad.


As for the long boring stuff posted later on that I never bother to read.... well you answered your own question. I read 95% of this forum but if a post doesnt look insightful then I honestly will just move past it.

gstyle40
24-04-13, 15:02
seems the only safezone on the test server is p1, so if that is intentional strife and other ally pk'rs can access apartments in any zone cept p1. y is that a problem? The problem is when your real fight chars get owned in pvp and u result to kami droning everyone and killing neutrals and allies in the process. Thats not accidental thats intentional. Thats why you have your neg sL so stop the bs. There are alot of people who like to aoe in p2 and they usually end up with neg sL now they complain because they cant use gr's. all i have to say is lol. sorry but these are the consequences for your play style. Nobody likes kami droners/aoe spammers in fight zones so the fact they did what they did to the sL rules is a welcome change in my book.

NOW, the 35 and 25% changed to dissy ak and IAR are great, they seem to do the damage that was intended, not overpowered but not underpowered as well. i still need to test with ppu shields, but great start to the patch none the less

Dropout
24-04-13, 15:56
Snow has been removed from all weather patterns. Missing weather patterns restored.
Im almost crying from happyness!
Well That and the Dissy nerf.
Infact, pretty most the whole patch sounds awesome!

SilentEye
24-04-13, 16:00
Snow has been removed from all weather patterns. Missing weather patterns restored.
Im almost crying from happyness!
Well That and the Dissy nerf.
Infact, pretty most the whole patch sounds awesome!
See, more of these replies please!

Model192
24-04-13, 16:55
Regarding the new SL System:

You can be a badass all the time but be a badass who accept all consequences too. The soullight became a useless number in the old system. Accidentally killed faction members or friends? Why not use the team function? Its always annoying for the most people to get ganked by a "friendly" runner, they are loose stuff too.

There is no place for carebear-badasses ;)

I would agree with you if weapons and the like were balanced. Here's what I mean:

Back in the day I was -90 red SL almost constantly. Now, with my PE and the weapons either being in either two categories(complete shit, good) there is almost no reason to go red SL anymore. To use the weapons that are good requires me to equip a 2.5mil PA and the weapon cost/implants/etc is outrageous. So, I couldn't exactly play a badass willing to lose everything because losing everything would be...unrecoverable. I can't pick up the cheap guns and live like a crazy criminal bum on the run with basic weapons to defend myself because...I wouldn't stand any chance at all? Balance needs an overhaul in general, obviously, but to do this is a bit silly.

Idle or do missions for soul light or you basically can't play the game. Yay. This is called a punishment, and removes people from gameplay. Good business model, it'll never work.

This type of RP should be open in the game, and expanded. You are crunching it down, which is not good. No longer can I run around in PA2 with a basic-ish weapon as a criminal and kill people and mug them. It's not griefing if you're playing the role, but I can't even play the role because of this. No GRs, no nothing? A bit ridiculous. Guess I'll have to play a spy just to go red SL.

So, while you don't like carebear-badasses, you are effectively eliminating just the badasses and turning the game into more of a mission grindfest.

Cyberpunk, dangerous criminals, a city full of them and run/made for them. This is commonplace. This is a move to destroy it.

Revert VR to high sl safezones, move Plaza back to safe, keep pepper park as the battlegrounds. You'll be a lot better off with this.

SilentEye
24-04-13, 16:58
No longer can I run around in PA2 with a basic-ish weapon as a criminal and kill people and mug them. It's not griefing if you're playing the role, but I can't even play the role because of this.
I think you're getting the cause of this wrong.

The cause is not the balance (of course it's part of it) but more so the fact that the only people you have to fight are capped players.

Back in the day, you would have found a lot more players with their LE popped, and you could play your part (kill/mug) as you wanted while you were a lot more basic-equipped yourself.

So again, I think the problem here is more the LE being popped late, if at all, rather than game balance.

J.HighRoller
24-04-13, 17:19
Quick question: Will you be resetting the Soul light of people who is -100? That way people who play the game with -100 will get to choose with the new rules if they want to continue playing?

Strife
24-04-13, 17:28
Regarding the new SL System:

You can be a badass all the time but be a badass who accept all consequences too. The soullight became a useless number in the old system. Accidentally killed faction members or friends? Why not use the team function? Its always annoying for the most people to get ganked by a "friendly" runner, they are loose stuff too.

There is no place for carebear-badasses ;)This just opens the system up for even more abuse. Now we will have people in places such as regents running into your AoE and dying on purpose to get you red SL. Have fun running all the way back to your apt from e_02. People will 'troll' in Pepperpark, where the zoneline fighting will most likely be moved to. 0/2's with LE out running infront of CS fire and dying.

This does nothing to promote respecting the faction boundaries. People will just manage soul-light better until they accidentally go red at some point and lose their 5slot rare they worked months on getting.

I wouldn't have too much of a problem with all of this, but the no-GR thing is absolutely absurd.

PsiCorps
24-04-13, 17:50
SL Changes are short sighted.

Green allied faction member attacks you. Running away is improbable due to the 'soft cap' run speeds.
You fight back, you lose SL. You have lost a lot of SL (esp if they have had 100 SL).

Why should a player be punished for self defense?

I think several mechanics would need to be in place for this to really be a balanced change.

1) Agressor system - player hits you first, for the next 20 seconds you can retaliate with little or no SL loss.
2) Clan War system - Keeps green allied factions as green - however their clan tag RED - netting little or no SL loss.

I can understand SL changes could be in place to ensure fully capped players aren't attacking lowbies for the 'LOLz' and giving harsh punishments accordingly.

However; I've never lost SL killing a lowbie, because it is pointless.

I suggest if this is to go ahead, rethinking of the threshold would be required.

Maybe Lockout of Safe Zone Apps -31 SL
Vendor Lockout -40
Genrep Lockout -50

This will ensure that accidents don't ruin your character in the blink of an eye - and people committed to killing people for SL loss are punished accordingly.

People who OPWAR with minus soul light are already at a disadvantage by being on the NCPD terrorist list - meaning opposing clans can track movements easily.

Also, on the test server Faction HQs are no longer safe zones - I would consider making the mission NPCs invulnerable.
Running missions in a faction HQ will no longer be desirable, which I imagine is intentional.

[ edited ]

Ivan Eres
24-04-13, 17:51
I wouldn't have too much of a problem with all of this, but the no-GR thing is absolutely absurd.

One could also call it absurd that a murderer and criminal is simply able to use all transportation possibilities and appartments in safe zones without problems.

PsiCorps
24-04-13, 17:55
One could also call it absurd that a murderer and criminal is simply able to use all transportation possibilities and appartments in safe zones without problems.

This assumes that all -31 SL people are criminals.

I've seen people drop group when AoEing in Regants and dying in barrels to net people loss of SL.
I would not see that as a criminal act.

Kame
24-04-13, 18:00
Edited by poster

Strife
24-04-13, 18:02
One could also call it absurd that a murderer and criminal is simply able to use all transportation possibilities and appartments in safe zones without problems.I don't have much of a problem with the apartment thing, I misread it earlier. This also isnt a ultra-realistic RPG. Limiting the way you can play the game isn't productive, or even good game design.

This is meant to curb rampant allied PK'ing, and this simply won't. People will manage their SL better, and probably PvP even less. All for the sake of some people whining that an allied killed them(in a fucking Cyberpunk game no less). The only reason people respected it in the first place was because it was made that you dropped your first slot weapon. Bounty hunting/PK hunting was completely removed from the game to satisfy some people whining that they were pk'd by friendly faction.

How about this. If you don't like an ally killing you, stop your whining and put your LE in like it obviously should be.(pointed at no one directly)

Ivan Eres
24-04-13, 18:14
This assumes that all -31 SL people are criminals.

I've seen people drop group when AoEing in Regants and dying in barrels to net people loss of SL.
I would not see that as a criminal act.

That's what the system is for, and it should be adjusted to work properly.

I doubt that you will have to go to Regant's ever again with your PvP char (who's even WoC'ed maybe).

But if you do you will have a hard time to find a griefer there that will throw himself into your barrel because virtually everybody has their LE in there.

You should also choose your "group" i.e. team wisely, as you would do if you don't want your belt to be robbed by unknowns because you had your rare AoE weapon in slot 2 when you died.

Last but not least, that's also what clan's are for.

There will always be assholes in this world, but you gotta know how to deal with them or avoid them.

Kame
24-04-13, 18:14
This change wouldnt be so bad if SL was managed in a linear, predictable way.

What I mean is, from one neutral/ally kill to the next, SL drops anywhere from -10 to -40 SL per kill.

There seems to be no apparent way to predict the hit, certain zones are punnishing more than others.
Result is that the SL loss upon neutral/ally kill is basically a roll of dice, and that will compromise a lot of the PVP that happens within NC.


They should make SL drop in 5 points increments, so that players will not get caught by surprise by going from +5 SL to -35 from a single kill.

Kanedax
24-04-13, 18:17
What an absolutely stupid argument.


Your argument is equally stupid. This fits within the lore fine. You get red SL and you are listed as a terrorist. Logically it works out fine that you then are restricted almost all NC city services. As for your argument about "accidentally" getting really low SL, give me a break, I've only had red sl twice ever and I had to literally work at it. Getting very low SL isn't easy.

PsiCorps
24-04-13, 18:21
[ edited ]

Ivan Eres
24-04-13, 18:21
Bounty hunting/PK hunting was completely removed from the game to satisfy some people whining that they were pk'd by friendly faction.[...]

That's something I'd really like to be implemented properly, bounty hunting. The jail could be the place to hide for red sl chars, with appas, vendors, sl missions, and strong guards that would make a raid fun.


How about this. If you don't like an ally killing you, stop your whining and put your LE in like it obviously should be.(pointed at no one directly)

The goal should be to make it possible for people to pull their LE, and not to have them keep it until Judgement Day.

Kanedax
24-04-13, 18:27
[ edited ]

HkyPnky
24-04-13, 18:27
That's something I'd really like to be implemented properly, bounty hunting. The jail could be the place to hide for red sl chars, with appas, vendors, sl missions, and strong guards that would make a raid fun..

I like it

Kame
24-04-13, 18:41
Players shouldnt have to keep LE in by fear of the SL system being abused upon them.


Obivously this new SL rule allows for A LOT of exploiting to be possible.



As happenned with the VHC rule change (got cancelled), I vouch that the current SL rules remain until you guys think of something better than what is live on the test server.

Strife
24-04-13, 18:58
As happenned with the VHC rule change (got cancelled), I vouch that the current SL rules remain until you guys think of something better than what is live on the test server.I'd prefer a complete re-work. Even with the understanding that it will take time, and other changes may be put on hold. I'm pretty happy with how the game is in it's current state, the devs have done a absolutely amazing job weeding out the bug and exploits. I'd be happy to have future projects put on hold for a really fun, and drawn out rework of the entire SL/faction sympathy system.

I couldn't think of any change to this game that'd be better than bringing back true pker's to the game. Hear me out first before you rage. I'm thinking something like back in beta, when there was only a small handful of people who would chose this play-style. Checks and balances would need to be put in where you'd really have to dedicate yourself to the play-style.(Ie, restricted access to anything in Neocron city limits. You basically live in outzone apts. TG won't have you, CM won't have you, FA won't have you. You'll also have no access to their GR's, just Outzone, OP gr's, and places such as DRT and Battle Dome). Belt dropping would need to be changed/reverted back to previous version of the game. Dropping slot 1 every time is just game breaking for this playstyle.

^ tldr; Bad guys and pk hunting parties.

demonssword
24-04-13, 19:41
As said above (including by myself) the SL system will be up for much abuse and griefing.

People have also pointed out they will lose their hard earned loot, or just to spend 8hours while at work or in bed sitting at the back of their apartments every day passively lowering their soul light, just to be able to play the game for 30min to 1 hour later in the day.

An idea for the whole weapon drop thing would be for those dedicated to playing Sith... I mean low soul light characters :P is that maybe a vendor in the jail house or somewhere else that only low soul light people can go to sells 'knock-off' weapons and armour. So this stuff is almost as good as the rare weapons they are like, maybe rather than 120% stats they have cap of 110% BUT can only be used by people with between -100 -> -80SL. They will still drop, and will cost a bit to buy, but then at least they aren't dropping several million creds they cant earn on every death.

This idea also works nicely as a bounty type of system as well. If the guns / PA they are buying cost them say 200k per one, they are dropping 2-3 of these items when they die. The person getting the items from their belt cant use them unless they are heavy -SL however could sell them to Yo's for 10-30% of buyers price IF they don't want to sell back to the open market.

flib
24-04-13, 20:26
First of all: great patch! As awesome as all the technical fixes are, it's really nice to see seriously gameplay changes moving forward.

Regarding SL: what about making it so you only lose SL proportional to the damage that you dealt?
For example: you come across a green player and shoot him dead; you would take the full SL penalty for that.
If you accidentally hit a green guy with a CS blob, taking 10% of his health, and someone else kills him, you would only take 10% of the standard SL penalty, or a fixed value for certain ranges, like:
0%-10% = -5SL
11%-25% = -10SL
26%-50% = -25SL
51%-100% = -50SL

Obviously this wouldn't totally solve everything, like 0/2 non-le griefers, and it would need to take other things into account, like healing large amounts of mob damage over time, and a group of players could easily take turns shooting a green player, so each person only loses a smaller amount of SL, but this could be a good start to solve a lot of issues with the system.

gstyle40
24-04-13, 20:28
[ edited ]

Strife
24-04-13, 20:34
[ edited ]

damien vryce
24-04-13, 20:41
[ edited ]

PsiCorps
24-04-13, 21:05
[ edited ]

Kame
24-04-13, 21:51
I do have a -99 SL droner, but he's got not much to do with why I disagree with those changes. That char serves a purpose and the new ruleset will not affect him much.

My P2 chars however, are another story. They can and will accidentaly lose SL, and the fact that the amount of SL lost seems to be a roll of dice is discouraging me to engage in the PVP action in P2.

If anything, I will PVP more on my droner than other chars (in the city) to avoid the crap that comes with the new SL ruleset.


As far as regent goes, a LOT of players have an alt logged out there, and that alt is usually a PPU, so really running intentionally in someone's AOE to try to have them leave due to negative SL is very, very likely.

Faid
24-04-13, 22:02
People congratulating the SL changes seem to be people that I've never seen pvp outside of op wars.

lol and the only people complaining about it are the ones who Ive seen constantly ally pk-ing who, until now, have suffered very little consequences.

The changes are supposed to make you think about who you actually attack and kill. I get that most STD guys just want to attack and kill everyone everywhere and thats their playstyle which is fine, but there is a faction system in place and that system should mean something. Hopefully with these changes some stability will be returned to said system and the blatant ally pking will be nullified.

The positive effect I think this will have outweighs the potential for accidents and abuse.

PsiCorps
24-04-13, 22:16
lol and the only people complaining about it are the ones who Ive seen constantly ally pk-ing who, until now, have suffered very little consequences.

The changes are supposed to make you think about who you actually attack and kill. I get that most STD guys just want to attack and kill everyone everywhere and thats their playstyle which is fine, but there is a faction system in place and that system should mean something. Hopefully with these changes some stability will be returned to said system and the blatant ally pking will be nullified.

The positive effect I think this will have outweighs the potential for accidents and abuse.

Please move to Tangent, then we'd lose very little soullight ;)

runner420
24-04-13, 22:20
guards infront of ca hq don't shoot.stood infront of them as tg with -91 CA symp not a single shot.

Ascension
24-04-13, 22:33
guards infront of ca hq don't shoot.stood infront of them as tg with -91 CA symp not a single shot.

There was only 1 CA guard there earlier, and all the added guards seem to be facing mecca?

nabbl
24-04-13, 22:34
My P2 chars however, are another story. They can and will accidentaly lose SL, and the fact that the amount of SL lost seems to be a roll of dice is discouraging me to engage in the PVP action in P2.
.

Did you read the Patchnotes? Pepper Park is the new P2. You have another ruleset there

demonssword
24-04-13, 22:53
lol and the only people complaining about it are the ones who Ive seen constantly ally pk-ing who, until now, have suffered very little consequences.

The changes are supposed to make you think about who you actually attack and kill. I get that most STD guys just want to attack and kill everyone everywhere and thats their playstyle which is fine, but there is a faction system in place and that system should mean something. Hopefully with these changes some stability will be returned to said system and the blatant ally pking will be nullified.

The positive effect I think this will have outweighs the potential for accidents and abuse.

Not all STD just want to kill everyone, and as said before in the topic sometimes we are the ones being attacked and in defending ourselves we win (I say "we" but its not me who is doing it :P). HOWEVER if there was a faction that was enemy to all other factions, Anarchy Breed for instance I think we would have swapped to there in a heartbeat.

One of the reasons we moved from FA to BT was that we wanted to fight people not green on green all the time.
So with FF being TT
SOAD and Infected being TG
T-B-C being CS
Finally TSU being enemy to us

DRE not active
SXR are NEXT so neutral
Fusion are CM also neutral
PPB were BD being neutral

No Protopharm clans
LG being the only active CA means we had only 1 green clan to deal with.

Even then on an RP / LORE perspective the idea of a BT clan wanting to become the alpha faction and not caring who they take down to do it is very very easy to work out.
The whole MC5 brainwashing facility
Wanting to take down TT to prove they are better and in doing so absorb them
Trying to slow down the space program until their brainwashing technique is perfected
Shutting down PP so people rely on implants and nanites from BT rather than doctors who want to make cyborg bodies.
If they want to be the leaders of the city they will have to deal with CA at some point, so why not weaken them while you can.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

EITHER WAY going just a bit off topic there, though I think it has been drawn off topic a while ago and people have already made their ideas about the SL changes already. But to refresh my opinion
SL lockout of GRs should be limited to only some GRs if at all, ones owned by your own clan, PP and outzone or in your own apartment should still work for you as should some others at minimum, though maybe have disposable tool to use it.
Maybe give them something like a hacktool what you can use to access to port you to your own app and from there you can port to other places using it. This would mean that you go in to hack like if you use the lv20 tool on a term. So no chance of fail, but takes you a bit longer to get in.

Strife
24-04-13, 23:04
lol and the only people complaining about it are the ones who Ive seen constantly ally pk-ing who, until now, have suffered very little consequences.Constantly? Really?

We've lost tens, upon tens of millions in rare weapons, hours upon hours of mission running, not to mention the time having to idle before you can even pvp in p2 so you don't go red SL from a accidental ally kill.

DigestiveBiscui
25-04-13, 01:00
Swung both ways with this patch. I may give NC a break. The dissy nerf is great but you havent changed other things for it to work (watch people UG hug even more now as you still sit on your thumbs doing fuckall about it)

I for one dont care much about the SL thing. I find it more hilarious that youre spending time on things such as changing zones when needdd instead of actually looking at what people want. Speaking about that - you guys made a thread about what we thought needed changing the most as players and i cant see a damn thing about SL, changing zones and fucking snow being that high on peoples lists.

Also Blackmaze needs to come up for some air before he passes out

SilentEye
25-04-13, 01:39
Also Blackmaze needs to come up for some air before he passes out
It warms my heart to hear you guys talking about me :)

For some apparent reason I'm on all of your minds a lot, I wonder why!

Faid
25-04-13, 03:40
Constantly? Really?

We've lost tens, upon tens of millions in rare weapons, hours upon hours of mission running, not to mention the time having to idle before you can even pvp in p2 so you don't go red SL from a accidental ally kill.

Maybe not constantly :p but it happens a lot, every time I've seen an STD guy in a non safe zone they've attacked everyone regardless of faction or clan. Naturally our two clans attack each other because we are enemies but unclanned non-LE'd people get killed for no reason. I'm not saying everyone in your clan does this but it seems to be a defining characteristic for a good amount of them. I'm fine with people killing who ever they want whenever and wherever they want, Pepper Park should be a very fun place to hang out now :)

Although I can see how your red SL kami droner clan may have a problem with these new rules. The amount of times Ive seen one of your revenge droners killing indiscriminately in P2 is funny, it makes things somewhat interesting.

slith
25-04-13, 05:50
[ edited ]


Good changes so far in that patch. Naturally some things have to be refined more. The SL rules seem a bit harsh and plaza 1 / plaza 3 sync will become pvp zone #1. I actually like the area there so im fine with that.

Strife
25-04-13, 06:14
Although I can see how your red SL kami droner clan may have a problem with these new rules. The amount of times Ive seen one of your revenge droners killing indiscriminately in P2 is funny, it makes things somewhat interesting.OT, i have a blast doing it. My coveted 5 man drone kill was my crowning achievement.



Good changes so far in that patch. Naturally some things have to be refined more. The SL rules seem a bit harsh and plaza 1 / plaza 3 sync will become pvp zone #1. I actually like the area there so im fine with that. The worst possible zone line fighting ingame? Tight hall then horrible camera sticking. Your brainport shittalking aside, not being able to GR anywhere is absurd. It won't stop me, it won't stop me ally killing, it won't stop others ally killing. People will be more vigilant in SL management and go idle at low SL, instead of being out playing the game and fighting. I still happen to like the idea, if compromise was made on GR'ing. Give me a challenge, just don't make it not even worth the effort.

There's also nearly always underlying reasons why we will kill an ally. I don't know a single one of us that kill indiscriminately. But instead of asking the why, and understanding the situation people, yourself included jump to conclusions and jump on the hate bandwagon.

The opinion of STD is far more valid than people who rarely play the game, let alone people who play one single playstyle and have never strayed from it.

Chipmonk
25-04-13, 07:25
Besides the PVP discussion I think that it is great the volunteer team gives the soullight system a sense.

But even I think the change is not correct if you disable all GRs for those with less soullight. The system should more differ, for example:
- safezone GRs only useable with 0 or positiv SL
- city GRs not useable with SL less than -10
- PP and OZ GRs not useable with SL less than -40
- OP and wasteland GRs should always (OP GRs of course only if owner allows it) be useable, because its in the wastelands and there should be no rules

Grogor
25-04-13, 10:58
I love the patch. All parts of it.

And reading the posts about the -SL things I'm not sure where the problem is. The system is still the same inculding GRs, appartments, vendors, except one thing: Inside safzones. That's it. Where is the problem? You just can't go there anymore.

Almost all that complain are also for the removal or limitation of the LE, with arguments like Neocron isn't meant to be safe etc. And why would you need the safezones anyway except to run for them to not getting killed? If you encounter an enemie you said you want to kill him, so there is no need to hide for you, you either win or loose. No safe zone involved. Everything you get inside safe zones is also available in non safezones. And everyone is forced away from P2 so we just have to find a new place to fight. Shouldn't be a problem.

Zoltan
25-04-13, 11:46
Strife and co.: Please keep in mind that Neocron isn't a "MMO" like Call of Duty where you can RUN & GUN anytime and everywhere you want. Neocron is still a MMO-RPG-FPS. I know some of the last changes which hit us with Evo 2.2 brought Neocron far away from that.

And yes, I know that some of you (creative) guys find an another way to annoy runners again ;)

I read some useful and constructive ideas here. For example the 20 seconds on attack thing. Keep posting we'll collect and discuss some of your ideas <3

William Antrim
25-04-13, 12:31
For a brainport thread this sure does look pretty abusive at times.


If you are going to impose penalties on players like this then please can we have other benefits to being "bad" people. There is a difference between being a bad player and being a bad person. A bad player will have good soullight because he doesnt kill anyone. A bad person will have bad sl because he does.


If players are to truly have that experience of being the "bad guy" then they will push to pursue it. Art imitates life. We cannot run round in the real world toting huge guns and shouting our mouths off at one another so many people who would normally be quite calm and mild-mannered will live out this ideal in pc games. It is basic human psychology. Some do it for the benefit of themselves and some do it for the benefit of others!

regardless there will always be the people who want to be the villain. This patch punishes them and rightly so if they ARE villains. However you have to account for the people who want to have the choice to "go straight" at the same time. They need to be able to regain their SL in relative peace also.

How about giving them that access (in oz jail) as previously requested AND giving them adequate guard protection to do so. Also how about giving the copbots their old damage values back. I mean the practically insta-kill of NC1. Copbots should be feared.

Oz Jail guards should be almost as tough (but still raidable by a large scale police/militia force) but at the same time give the "red SL" guys a chance to choose to fight or GR out.

OZ Jail also needs its own GR. It can only be activated and used when you have BAD SL ideally. It should have guards beside it also just in case someone tries to gank the person coming in somehow.

There will be accidental issues where people lose SL - I dont care who says otherwise to be honest. It can and does happen.


There will also be people who go out of their way to make other clans/chars lose sl. This community has always had fierce rivalries/borderline pathological hatred between clans. The players in those clans can and do erupt violently plenty of times and some will push the rules. Again human nature. Revenge and all of that.

I do not think that RED sl players should be rewarded but I do think that they should be given adequate chance to repent.

Also the missions in Pepper Park sewers need to be reworked for people to repair their soullight there in the short term. They will need more mobs of each mission difficulty in the sewers down there.

SilentEye
25-04-13, 12:45
...
My compliments to your well constructed criticism, as usual :)

My full support to everything written above by William, well put!

nabbl
25-04-13, 13:12
...

Very good ideas!

I think that you should be able to regain your SL faster in the Jailhouse and automatically. To encourage people not to stand in there apparment to regain their SL.

Nidhogg
25-04-13, 17:09
Thread re-opened. Please, no more flaming or trolling or you risk losing your posting privileges in the Brainport. If you see a post you don't like please don't respond, just report it.

Thanks.

slith
25-04-13, 20:34
Scratch Soullight alltogether, make everything faction sympathy based (Reaction of guards, trader access, colouring to other players, sympathy loss or gain of other players).

Obviously this has to be a well thought through system of formulas that also takes into account the baserank of other players.

Sechs
25-04-13, 20:37
Scratch players, alltogether, make everything AI based. Seriously, it would solve so so many problems. :rolleyes:

Dropout
25-04-13, 21:26
Snip
Very well thought out post. As usual ;)

And I definitely agree, red SL players should have a proper way of regaining their SL.

Strife
26-04-13, 03:54
Any chance we can get an APU frequency buff to test with this patch?

500k nc bribe is on the table here.

Doc Holliday
26-04-13, 05:39
Chipmonk, Grogor and William Nailed it perfectly. Take these posts in to account within this thread.

SL penalties are good. Changes to the system is good. I like.

Whats needed though now is a way for the runner/clan to influence its own F6 system of neutral/allied and enemy factions. With these penalties in place people will be encouraged to move around factions to give them either the most reds overall (BD/TT) or the most reds given the current server demographic.

I fear the effect of this will make other factions obsolete (PP/DRE for example) more so than they already are. A way to alter this would be to allow more freedom of choice to who you will take an SL hit for killing and who will become your friend.

I realise this might or might not be feasible but if your going to bring in these penalties against red people then at least level the field so we get a fair stab at choosing a faction because we actually like the lore/rp etc of the faction and not just because what F6 tells us.

(wonders if i will get as much love as will considering this is one of my less inflamatory posts ;))

RogerRamjet
26-04-13, 11:47
Scratch Soullight alltogether, make everything faction sympathy based (Reaction of guards, trader access, colouring to other players, sympathy loss or gain of other players).

Obviously this has to be a well thought through system of formulas that also takes into account the baserank of other players.

That would be along the lines of something I'd like to see, faction symp more important than it currently is. I think an update to the zone rules is due too.

I would love to see the intricacies of the faction system back. Was it zoltans post that mentioned the game has the rpg element? The guys right, and I hope this returns to the community one day.

Powerpunsh
26-04-13, 15:37
Hmm nice soullight system and william has good ideas. This should be worked out further. :)


May i ask why did you reduce the disruptor damage? As far as i know john doe managed to balance all weapons with a damage over time value which affects frequence, damage, reloadtime. Why not just increase the disruptor frequence so the damage gets calculated down and it requires more skill to hit either. I always felt the damage over time fine it was just the lenght of the disruptor which made it hurt too much (bursttime is like 2-3 seconds). With the ak he just fucked up. :P

Another point is stealthwhoring. You are able to get out of fight anywhere and get healed up while in stealth. I would like to see a delay for stealth of 2 seconds (which makes sense in my opinion) and a reduced heal effect OR make the true sight sanctum more powerful. A revealed spy/pe shouldnt be able to stealth again. There should be like a 2-3 secs debuff which prevents them from stealthing again.

btw: i would like to see other weapons viable again. Since you got some tools done i hope it wouldnt be that hard to manage. :P

SilentEye
26-04-13, 15:43
May i ask why did you reduce the disruptor damage? As far as i know john doe managed to balance all weapons with a damage over time value which affects frequence, damage, reloadtime. Why not just increase the disruptor frequence so the damage gets calculated down and it requires more skill to hit either.
Reducing the damage on the weapon would require the least from users to get used to the rifle again. I can imagine if you try and change the frequency or handling it would take a lot more time to get used to the weapon.

Reducing the weapon damage seems the most logical thing to me, as it doesn't change much else in regard to it's handling. The only thing users would have to get used to is the fact that hey will have to keep pounding a little longer (35% to be exact) :)

Deus Ex Machina
26-04-13, 16:27
You can be a badass all the time but be a badass who accept all consequences too.
[...]
There is no place for carebear-badasses ;)Thanks for that, really made my day :-)

Regarding the patch:
Very nice work and changes, I like it that the Dev Team has a vision of NC and follows that for the most part (and still compromising when a change was a wrong one).

I especially like the Soullight and possible zone changes in addition to each other.
But some of the concerns regarding negative SL I think are quite valid, a few steps in the consequences might be nice like it was mentioned.
And also the punishing according to damage done would be nice - for example the system could consider, if possible, the last damage done in height of the total health someone has (meaning everyone who shot at the person before but their damage got healed again doesn't count). For every one percent of damage done one gets two percent of the Soullight loss, maxing at 100% SL loss at 50% damage. That would mean if I accidentally hit someone allied in combat I do not need to sync to avoid loss of much SL, and possibly don't loose any at all. It would also mean the progress towards negative SL is slower for those not caring.
I am even thinking about making the loss of items a bit less harsh, but that would only be useful with the new changes implemented.
I still hope someday I am seeing a NC where people with Red SL are not only just sitting around in safezones or appartments (for example because it doesn't bring back their SL anymore, and they are hunted in safezones), but are still hunted by players for good reason.

Also nice to tone down the damage of apparently overpowered weapons before the real balancing takes place as a temporary solution.

Also: MANY thanks for the Copbot changes ;-)
And the City Admin NPCs

Not sure why the weather changes, and why snow is bad :-)
Wouldn't mind some around Tech Haven, but can happily live without it too I guess ;-)

Powerpunsh
26-04-13, 16:29
If you argue like this then the ak should be impossible to use due to its high frequence. :)
35% is kinda heavy and i can bet other weapons will find back to runners hands *sees the first RoG spies lurkin around* :p

William Antrim
26-04-13, 21:52
If you argue like this then the ak should be impossible to use due to its high frequence. :)
35% is kinda heavy and i can bet other weapons will find back to runners hands *sees the first RoG spies lurkin around* :p

variety is what made nc1 so great.

D:I
27-04-13, 23:45
Nice changes. Nuff said.

Well..actually not.
Negative SL does not equal to you being an outlaw/gangster.
You want to be that? Be a Black Dragon, Tsunami, Twilight Guardian, whatever.
Having Negative SL equals to you being a "chaotic evil" homicidal maniac-cyber psycho. In Cyberpunk(TM) this would mean that the goddamn police are hunting you with the intent of "shoot to kill". You know CybEx and all that fun stuff.

You killed allied/friendly/own faction people to get your SL to where it is now, if you dont want to deal with the aftermath, just don't do that stuff.
If you are in the Mafia, you don't shoot Fat-Tony because you dont like [insert what you don't like about him here] because that would probably upset your peers, who might not have a problem with him. Thats not how organized crime works. Thats how homicidal maniacs work.
And believe it or not but regardless of the social structure, homicidal maniacs usually get put down.

You guys should rejoice that all you have to deal with is is not being able to enter your P1 appartement while the police is broadcasting your APB on national television.

BlueRobot
28-04-13, 03:46
I think a lot of people don't know what they talk about here. I haven't actually seen people going red intentionally on Titan since it's start and only very few on the old servers for years.

In almost every case i know of, people got red because of accidently shooting greens in fights and not being teamed or because of people intentionally trying to get killed by crossfire with 0hlt chars.

I lost some SL yesterday because I killed a neutral guy in P2 after he killed me when i was 50hp after a duel. I havent lost any SL before that for months, but I'm not at 100 because things like that happen from time to time.

Since red SL players don' t seem to be a problem on Titan, I really don't understand where these changes are coming from. They are going to hurt players who get red by accident, try to defend themselfs or get griefed by 0hlt guys. The only ones who really exploit the -sl systems are kami droners in P2, who aren't going to be hurt by the changes, because they need an apt in p2 anyway to lame with maximum efficiency.

Don't get me wrong though, I think SL needs a rework, and I like part of the changes, like the "no apt in safezones" or part of the GR changes.

But not all GRs should be blocked for example, and something needs to be done to make red SL actually playable with high risks, instead of "You meanie got red SL, but we can't really ban you for it, so fuck you and have a life as shitty as possible"

Faid
28-04-13, 05:29
I think a lot of people don't know what they talk about here. I haven't actually seen people going red intentionally on Titan since it's start and only very few on the old servers for years.
"

There is an entire clan of Red SL droners who's goal is to kill as many people as possible, and I know you know this because you roll with these people lol. Moneyshot is the name I believe, one of strifes fondest memories is of killing 4 people with one drone.

There is another clan of people who rejoice in the red SL playstyle, all the citizen 8 guys. We've run into them in regants and throughout the city. They roleplay Red SL chars. Its completely on purpose.

Very rarely is anyone red SL on accident. You have to kill multiple allies to achieve this. Yes the accidental SL hit will occur from time to time but it certainly doesn't happen as much as you're trying to make it out.

Deus Ex Machina
28-04-13, 13:40
What just comes to me with that discussion about Red SL is: I don't know the current SL rules. Because I am a nice guy to my allies. So I know more or less what should happen in which zone for example, but not:
- How hard are different SL Hits? (For example SL 0 Kills SL 100, SL -50 Kills SL 50, SL 100 kills SL 0, and a few different ones, also for neutrals and allies alike, and sorted by sector rules (some sectors punish killing enemies I think?)
- Which sectors should punish which behaviour?
- What happens when your SL gets yellow, and at which point?
- What happens when it gets Red, and at whcih point?
- Are there steps in between?
- What is supposed to give you SL back?

It would be nice if there were a rule section in the forum, since I don't think that information could be found somewhere. And that some nice Admin / Dev could post the actual "rules" in there so that people who don't play around "accidently" getting red each day also know the point at hand a bit better ;)

BlueRobot
28-04-13, 21:38
So since my post seems to have been deleted, here it's again in short form:

What Faid said is not remotely true, there are no red SL players except for maybe some P2 kami droners, and those won't be affected by the changes. I don't play with any -SL guys either, nor do i know any. It seems he said that to take away from my credibility.

Also his clan are ninja hackers, so I don't know why he acts like a whiteknight here.

Strife
29-04-13, 01:24
[ edited ]

PsiCorps
29-04-13, 01:38
[ edited ]

Doc Holliday
29-04-13, 05:03
[ edited ]

Jack Silver
29-04-13, 09:00
It rly looks like a nice patch but in my opinion there is something missing. Im not sure but i think it wouldn't fix the spy army op fights. What about some more survivalability for tanks and apus? Maybe less work for ppus (give apu's antis back). I won't criticise the patch its fine. Just asking cause i love op fights with much fat tanks and apu's. spys are also cool but atm its like 4ppus+5spys teams and if the spys are good there is no way to kill them cause they stealth when a mosquito flies them into the face :D

Nidhogg
29-04-13, 10:51
One person's posting rights in the Brainport has already been revoked so, please, no more flaming/trolling or going off topic. Thanks.

Dropout
29-04-13, 11:01
It rly looks like a nice patch but in my opinion there is something missing. Im not sure but i think it wouldn't fix the spy army op fights. What about some more survivalability for tanks and apus? Maybe less work for ppus (give apu's antis back). I won't criticise the patch its fine. Just asking cause i love op fights with much fat tanks and apu's. spys are also cool but atm its like 4ppus+5spys teams and if the spys are good there is no way to kill them cause they stealth when a mosquito flies them into the face :D

Im sure something similar will come in a future patch. The Dissy problem just had to be addressed as fast as possible, which is probably why we see some balancing already.

CritiNator
29-04-13, 11:02
Only thing i hate in this patch, is the fact that its not on retail. Do it fast..

eNTi
29-04-13, 11:28
i think run speed is still way too high and stealth is broken, but this has it's own brainport thread already. this game simply doesn't feel like a proper fps. go play quake for a while and you see what i mean. :D

both stealth and run speed favor spies. nc 1 was monkocron. nc 2.2 is spyocron.

demonssword
29-04-13, 12:26
i think run speed is still way too high and stealth is broken, but this has it's own brainport thread already. this game simply doesn't feel like a proper fps. go play quake for a while and you see what i mean. :D

both stealth and run speed favor spies. nc 1 was monkocron. nc 2.2 is spyocron.

Stealth being broken is a huge issue for a lot of people ATM. Both in the sense that it is an instant get out of danger free tool, but mainly that is it failing to apply. You use it and it puts your char in stealth on your screen and so cant use any items. However server side to everyone else you are completely visible and killable but cant do anything to protect yourself.
As for run speed. Run speed is fine now, in my opinion the soft cap might be a little low. Currently a spy can with a nice drug setup spend only about 5-6 levels in agi (25-30pts) and same on athletics and still run at softcap runspeed. I also see monks running at cap just with their dex PTS thrown only in to agi with nothing in athletics.

Kanedax
29-04-13, 15:31
I think a lot of people don't know what they talk about here. I haven't actually seen people going red intentionally on Titan since it's start and only very few on the old servers for years.

In almost every case i know of, people got red because of accidently shooting greens in fights and not being teamed or because of people intentionally trying to get killed by crossfire with 0hlt chars.

I lost some SL yesterday because I killed a neutral guy in P2 after he killed me when i was 50hp after a duel. I havent lost any SL before that for months, but I'm not at 100 because things like that happen from time to time.

Since red SL players don' t seem to be a problem on Titan, I really don't understand where these changes are coming from. They are going to hurt players who get red by accident, try to defend themselfs or get griefed by 0hlt guys. The only ones who really exploit the -sl systems are kami droners in P2, who aren't going to be hurt by the changes, because they need an apt in p2 anyway to lame with maximum efficiency.

Don't get me wrong though, I think SL needs a rework, and I like part of the changes, like the "no apt in safezones" or part of the GR changes.

But not all GRs should be blocked for example, and something needs to be done to make red SL actually playable with high risks, instead of "You meanie got red SL, but we can't really ban you for it, so fuck you and have a life as shitty as possible"

The only times I've ever gone red was on purpose. One time was running around in p2 during an event spamming my wocet and the other times were when I started Pandemic Pharmaceuticals with a few other people and started ganking people all over the server.

I reiterate, it is difficult to get RED soul light on accident. -5 or 10 on accident is reasonable but come one, no one believes you got -35 sl on accident.

eNTi
29-04-13, 15:41
So since my post seems to have been deleted, here it's again in short form:

What Faid said is not remotely true, there are no red SL players except for maybe some P2 kami droners, and those won't be affected by the changes. I don't play with any -SL guys either, nor do i know any. It seems he said that to take away from my credibility.

Also his clan are ninja hackers, so I don't know why he acts like a whiteknight here.
if you don't know any -sl players or if there are actually almost none on this server there's two things i don't understand:
1. why are so many ppl here crying about changes, that won't affect most people on the server anyway,
2. where's the problem with a system that actively discourages players going -sl in the first place? it doesn't seem to be easy, since there are almost none. at least if we take your word for it.

obviously the devs know more than anyone of us and they also see the need to implement those changes, for whatever reason.

Kame
29-04-13, 18:25
I reiterate, it is difficult to get RED soul light on accident. -5 or 10 on accident is reasonable but come one, no one believes you got -35 sl on accident.

I disagree with this, I have personnaly experienced instances where SL drops in chunks of -40 points.
Most notably the staircase to MB, the SL drops are intense in there.

This is also part of the problem, if the loss was linear and predictable, fine. But right now most SL loss feel like a roll of dice.

Ivan Eres
29-04-13, 20:48
if you don't know any -sl players or if there are actually almost none on this server there's two things i don't understand:
1. why are so many ppl here crying about changes, that won't affect most people on the server anyway,
2. where's the problem with a system that actively discourages players going -sl in the first place? it doesn't seem to be easy, since there are almost none. at least if we take your word for it.

PvP in the city is the reason.

There are accidents and there are bored PvP players who will attack anybody. Because of the latter there will be feuds between allies. And other players will get between the frontlines.

If you want to participate in city PvP you can be sure your SL will be fucked someday.

I think that's one reason for this outcry.

Kame
29-04-13, 23:48
This will be a crippling factor to Zonline PVP.

I have been on Vedeena the P2 Zoneline and Gogo area is filled with static copbots with one more dynamic copbot. Thats 5 copbots in P2's fighting area.



I dont understand why Zoneline PVP seems to be repressed by the DEVs.

We don't want to use NF for a quick PVP fix, we want Battle Dome, but in the city, and with a safezone next to it to talk trash.

We want something for Zoneline PVP and ideally not a zone where the new SL rule will make people's PVP experience awful.

Ivan Eres
30-04-13, 00:32
The reason for the changes to P2 on Vedeena is that PvP in the city shall move to PP again.

However, since the zone rules are the same in PP nothing will change regarding the SL situation there.

Strife
30-04-13, 02:06
The reason for the changes to P2 on Vedeena is that PvP in the city shall move to PP again.

However, since the zone rules are the same in PP nothing will change regarding the SL situation there.I'd be fine if P3 was made into a safe zone. Not looking forward to Veronique's zoneline pvp. Just seems meh. (noQQ)

cl0wn
30-04-13, 04:22
I'd be fine if P3 was made into a safe zone. Not looking forward to Veronique's zoneline pvp. Just seems meh. (noQQ)

^ PP pvp ftw!

Faid
30-04-13, 16:26
Club veronique isn't a safe zone now, although there are some copbots inside the club.

William Antrim
30-04-13, 16:29
The Pussy club is a safe zone.

Kanedax
30-04-13, 17:38
I thought we were all hardcore bad asses in here? Why do we need a safe zone?

Kanedax
30-04-13, 17:40
I disagree with this, I have personnaly experienced instances where SL drops in chunks of -40 points.
Most notably the staircase to MB, the SL drops are intense in there.

This is also part of the problem, if the loss was linear and predictable, fine. But right now most SL loss feel like a roll of dice.


Then that needs to be fixed. I personally have never experienced such extreme SL loss. I think the most I have lost at once in maybe 10.

SilentEye
30-04-13, 19:04
Club veronique isn't a safe zone now, although there are some copbots inside the club.
Club Veronique is a safezone.

Dropout
30-04-13, 19:04
Then that needs to be fixed. I personally have never experienced such extreme SL loss. I think the most I have lost at once in maybe 10.

It depends on how your SL is compared to the person you kill.
For example I killed a Allied APU in regants on my tank with 100 SL.. Two times.. And only lost 3 SL from those two kills... His SL was clearly very low. If I had been at 10 SL and he had been at 100 SL, I had lost a TON more.

Faid
30-04-13, 20:38
Club veronique and pussy club were both non safe zones on the test server the other day. As well as all the faction HQ's in Pepper Park. I assume it was to stop zone-whoring to safe zones in PP.

Ivan Eres
30-04-13, 23:52
[...]We don't want to use NF for a quick PVP fix, we want Battle Dome, but in the city, and with a safezone next to it to talk trash.

We want something for Zoneline PVP and ideally not a zone where the new SL rule will make people's PVP experience awful.

I'd like that too. No SL loss. Belt drop is ok.

GM's could set a city zone to a "city battle" zone, similar to the new safe zone GM feature in T185/186.

This way the "city battle zone" could even change, and this would add to the fun!

eNTi
01-05-13, 10:33
I'd like that too. No SL loss. Belt drop is ok.

GM's could set a city zone to a "city battle" zone, similar to the new safe zone GM feature in T185/186.

This way the "city battle zone" could even change, and this would add to the fun!
like a map rotation in quake multiplayer.

Trivaldi
01-05-13, 11:06
Club veronique and pussy club were both non safe zones on the test server the other day. As well as all the faction HQ's in Pepper Park. I assume it was to stop zone-whoring to safe zones in PP.
That is not an intended outcome and will need to be investigated/addressed. Those zones should still be safe.

Ivan Eres
01-05-13, 13:06
like a map rotation in quake multiplayer.

PvP can be a lot of fun. You will see it after the balancing.

Ascension
01-05-13, 14:36
neocronstruct is also non safe!

Alduin
01-05-13, 14:43
There was an error in the database upgrade which prevented the automagic parsing of worldflags from the old source. (Was implies: fixed ;) )

Doc Holliday
03-05-13, 03:21
I have a char with bad sl for testing purposes. I tried this out the other day and found all city gen reps are locked out to pepper park. Due to my bad sl and being on my own I didn't test the apartments lift as my primary is in plaza 3.

As mentioned in the brainport thread about neg sl I think this could be eased a little. Possibly restricting gr access and reclassifying them in the gen rep screen would be a better way to go. Don't punish the bad sl players if they choose this more hardcore style of play but don't give them a free meal ticket either. I'm writing on my phone at the mo so will add more when I can get on my laptop properly.

Kame
07-05-13, 17:51
I think SL should be a Runner Rank related rule, instead of being based on Faction Relations as it is now.

Simple rule such as : kill any runner of any faction 10 Runner Ranks or lower, and lose X amount of SL.

Then Faction Relations should be independant, kill a runner from X faction and lose FS with killed runner's faction. Killing an enemy runner should NEVER give FS gain, as it's very easily exploitable.

Drachenpaladin
07-05-13, 18:33
Simple rule such as : kill any runner of any faction 10 Runner Ranks or lower, and lose X amount of SL.

That... is a fairly stupid rule. That way you lose SL even if you are just defending yourself. This would only work if there was a mechanic implemented the allows to determine who is the aggressor in a conflict. That would require a mayor overhaul of the game and its status tracking.

William Antrim
07-05-13, 18:42
That... is a fairly stupid rule. That way you lose SL even if you are just defending yourself. This would only work if there was a mechanic implemented the allows to determine who is the aggressor in a conflict. That would require a mayor overhaul of the game and its status tracking.

That... is a fairly stupid reply.

Yes you would still lose SL if you are defending yourself but that is no different to the game in its current state. However this does stop some of the noob pking that can and will happen by bored players. A player would have to be pretty gutsy (or stupid) to take on a player of 10 or more levels higher rank and yes the guy would have the option (the victim this is) to take the SL hit and frag the offender or run away and not lose SL.

Look at things in context before putting them down.

Drachenpaladin
07-05-13, 19:28
Look at things in context before putting them down.

Your 'context' doesn't change the fact that this concept only results in lvl 1 noobs throwing themselfs as cheap SL-kamikaze into every possible fight, even if its just for trolling.

William Antrim
08-05-13, 19:48
Your 'context' doesn't change the fact that this concept only results in lvl 1 noobs throwing themselfs as cheap SL-kamikaze into every possible fight, even if its just for trolling.

And that cannot happen now with current mechanics? I do not see how you say its a crap idea when people can do the same thing under current mechanics.

Trivaldi
08-05-13, 20:17
These patches are now live on Titan. Please use the patch discussion thread if you wish to discuss patch specific issues.