View Full Version : Re-Design Stealth
I'd like to propose a re-design of the stealth tools;
Activating stealth is permanent;
You may still equip items while in stealth;
Activating an item exits stealth (shooting a rifle, activating a hack, not opening a door);
Stealthed targets may still be targeted and damaged;
Taking damage does not exit stealth;
A higher tech level means more transparency of the stealther;
Pro's for the stealther;
No inconvenience for the user with timing stealth to calculate when you exit;
It is easier to equip the correct item to use after exiting stealth;
May exit stealth guns blazing so to speak;
Pro's for the attacker;
The stealther is more vulnerable to attack making it a higher risk to use up close to people;
Stealth is no longer a guaranteed getaway;
Let me know your thoughts :)
DigestiveBiscui
10-04-13, 11:30
Permanent stealth?
No thankyou
Even though you will be able to target them constantly and kill them if you keep your eyes pealed?
Think about it! :)
JoshCooper
10-04-13, 11:45
You can kill a stealthed player anyway with aoe. No need to target them. If i remember correctly plasma weapons (such as CS and first love) can hit through stealth too
I kind of see what you are aiming at but now sure how well it would work.
As the Tech Level determines how transparent you are and you are still target-able while stealthed the Jones stealth (which is the only stealth a PE can use) would be pointless in a combat situation and the attacker would still have a weapon lock on you when you go into stealth and due to you being reasonable visible they wouldn't lose that lock.
Also I would think that you would need to press the stealth activator again to break stealth and then select your weapon so that it is not completely overpowered.
This will hurt PE's the most. So Im obviously very much against.
This will hurt PE's the most. So Im obviously very much against.
Now if I could use a Paineaser or Libby while stealthed and stay stealthed then you might be onto something. Atleast you'd have a chance of killing people with those weapons again.
Doc Holliday
11-04-13, 10:06
Remove it completely. Better idea.
http://i.tinyuploads.com/O38FAk.png
Remove it completely. Better idea.
Hm I disagree. Everyone complains that the APU is too weak and gets down to fast. Have you ever considered what a Spy that has less CON and no high level Armorset like Monks goes down even faster without stealth?
I'm also against changing the mechanics of the stealth (exept the bugs ofc). There are viable ways against stealthers. Ok, it requires a bit of skill and a second weapon, but very non-stealth class can so something about it.
And you have to loose target with single shot weapons otherwise stealth would be almost useless if you don't activate it in the very first moment you got attacked, so you have time to trick the attacker. Seems worse than the current situation to me.
Doc Holliday
11-04-13, 14:39
Hm I disagree. Everyone complains that the APU is too weak and gets down to fast. Have you ever considered what a Spy that has less CON and no high level Armorset like Monks goes down even faster without stealth?
I'm also against changing the mechanics of the stealth (exept the bugs ofc). There are viable ways against stealthers. Ok, it requires a bit of skill and a second weapon, but very non-stealth class can so something about it.
And you have to loose target with single shot weapons otherwise stealth would be almost useless if you don't activate it in the very first moment you got attacked, so you have time to trick the attacker. Seems worse than the current situation to me.
you make some very valid points grogor and i agree but currently WITH stealth the spy is overpowered and the class of choice for a great many reasons. granted that removal of stealth is a true hammer blow to the class but its also a way of removing some of that overpoweredness that is inherent within the class as it is right now.
i realise my post was short and not very discursive but it is food for thought after all.
J@ck on Cr@ck
11-04-13, 15:17
you make some very valid points grogor and i agree but currently WITH stealth the spy is overpowered and the class of choice for a great many reasons. granted that removal of stealth is a true hammer blow to the class but its also a way of removing some of that overpoweredness that is inherent within the class as it is right now.
i realise my post was short and not very discursive but it is food for thought after all.
I strongly disagree!
First of all you will take away a key characteristic of the spy class.
Secondly the spy is not overpowered because of stealth, but because of overpowered weapons (dissy/ak).
Taking away stealth doesn´t change that fact and therefore will only be a band aid solution.
It also seems to me that you completly forgot about pistol spies which are not overpowered. Just because there are not many pistol spies doesn´t mean you can leave them out of the equation.
While I find the ideas proposed by silent eye interesting I rather stick with the current stealth mechanics.
Stealth now is not a guaranteed getaway and you are in fact vulnerable. Usually you stealth only after taking a relatively high amount of damage and can be finished off by a variety of weapons. A winding argument hurts quite a lot and you will become "visible" and can be chased. Additionally stealth doesn´t work properly at the moment and you will often appear visible while you think you are not.
It seems to me people do not understand the underlying problem of weapon balance and try to fix this issue some other way (band aid solutions).
I think thats a bit too much.
The only problem I see with stealth, is that its currently making spies the best choice for OP-Fights by far. But since the PvP balance pretty much doesn't exist, it's hard to say nerfing stealth is still needed in the big picture.
My suggestion would be to add a spell/tool that you can cast on someone, like an anti heal, that stops them from using stealth and throws them out of it if casted delayed.
Another idea that I think sounds cool, would be to have a drone that can see stealthers and can throw them out of stealth if it shoots them.
What i dislike the most about op's idea is, that you would accidentaly see stealthers if they try to ambush you, and their hitbox appears because you randomely moved your aim over them.
Doc Holliday
12-04-13, 04:22
............
True Sight Sanctum. Its shite. :( It does however exist.
demonssword
12-04-13, 14:02
My suggestion would be to add a spell/tool that you can cast on someone, like an anti heal, that stops them from using stealth and throws them out of it if casted delayed.
Another idea that I think sounds cool, would be to have a drone that can see stealthers and can throw them out of stealth if it shoots them.
As the above said, true sight santum is there but its not great. But i also like the idea of maybe making a True Sight Barrel. So like poison / fire / lightning barrels APUs get, maybe give APUs a True Sight Barrel. This would again give something to the vastly underplayed APUs. Maybe make it only last 5-10 seconds or something and cost about 100-200 psi to cast meaning that they have something to do with a large cost to do so.
I do like the idea of an anti stealth drone, maybe make it like the punisher for how it shoots (direct ball that on hitting any surface / player sends out a AOE or sparks) and anyone hit by the sparks is revieled. Also if they can see a person in stealth as a different colour or something, make them glow red or yellow or something or just you can see the stealth cloud from a larger distance.
I quite like the idea, except for the permament stealth part. Take these changes and double maximum stealth time of every tool?
demonssword
12-04-13, 23:50
Another kinda problem with this idea could be people using stuff like Silent Hunters, who could of course stealth up, then scope and full aim the SH and take 1 shot, stealth again and do this again and again in team based fights to remain entirely invisible or at least only visible for all but the 1 second it takes to reselect the tool and click the button.
Other idea:
No changes to stealth, but give the PE an eye-implant to see and attack runners in stealth. This eye-implant should PE-only. ;)
William Antrim
25-04-13, 22:50
Blackmaze i am confused.
In your recommendation I am on my spy.
I leave my apartment. I am stealthed.
I go to Pepper Park. I am still stealthed.
I find Doc and gank him (:)) I am now unstealthed whilst fragging his ass.
At what point do I then restealth back into my cloaked form and what benefit does it give me if I am targetable and damageable all throughout this time period?
If anything stealth should give people a cloaking device that boosts their resists for that period of time and remain damageable and visible during it. So in effect the guy can still be killed but he cannot hang around too long whilst the tank is pounding on him. He trades off that 0% offence for 200% defence or something (for the length of the stealth tool).
this - in my humble opinion - would give the players the best of both worlds.
Invincibility of stealth is sharply toned down.
Lack of ability of other classes to target stealther is toned up.
If this proves to be still unbalanced then perhaps a longer reticle closure time could be imposed for targeting a stealther.
Beam and burst weapons would still hit (albeit at a lower accuracy) and aoe would still continue to rape the spies.
stealth should be usable only for reconnaissance or getting into a tactical advantageous position unseen. not to (dis)engage in fights.
- stealth last until broken
- ANY item activation (even opening doors break stealth or drawing a weapon)
- ENOUGH damage breaks stealth
- huge cool down
- can only be activated if not being hit for a period of time
Arista Barret
26-04-13, 13:08
Other idea:
No changes to stealth, but give the PE an eye-implant to see and attack runners in stealth. This eye-implant should PE-only. ;)
omfg an original idea. Very cool. As far as changing stealth goes...no. It has done so much for the game as it stands. I fucking hate stealthwhores. This means they should stay as they are. If you think they are overpowered, come at me and my winding argument. PvP is good considering stealth alone. There are a few qwerks to work out but w/e.
Arista Barret
26-04-13, 13:09
[edited]
Sorry it's taken me a while to think about this before I posted a reply.
My intention for the stealth tool would be to make this more of a 'get ready to attack' tool rather than the current 'get out of jail card and not die'.
I want to make Stealth stronger for the initial attack and weaker for the getaway.
In my opinion, making Stealth easier to use in first instance would make it more viable to jump up on people, however the downside would be that you would not be so invulnerable trying to getaway as you could still be traced/damaged/targeted while you try and stealth away.
I hope this makes sense!
Dribble Joy
27-04-13, 12:43
Stealthed targets may still be targeted and damaged;
This is one of the things I would suggest for a stealth rework. I don't really have any issue with stealth aside from the 'exit button' nature it has become. Allowing people to follow the blue fuzz and still target you would mean that some skill in evading would be required once activated.
I think "disengaging" has been a big part of stealth/invisibility in every scifi/fantasy setting, and I wouldn't want to miss it in Neocron.
Another way to punish stealth whoring might be, to give stealth stacks like nanite-tools have, and make players loose health once they reach 100% + disable stealth until its at 0% again.
You could have low TL tools give 80% for a short stealth, and have high TL tools that give high % for long stealth and other high TL tools that give low % for short stealth.
This way people could just use noob stealthes like they do now in a limited way, or spec for higher TL stealth to use better tool for Sniper/Hitman setups.
I also like it, because it would promote using different setups.
J@ck on Cr@ck
16-05-13, 22:50
Stealthed targets may still be targeted and damaged;
You may not be able to target them like regular, unstealthed players, but you can still damage them with CS and other weapons or has this been changed?
I think stealth is fine the way it is.
There are AOE weapons that can take down a tattered and fleeing spy easy enough. And in case you forgot there is something called true sight sanctum why not put it to use?
BlueRobots suggestion of a debuff/timer kinda thing is interesting and might help mitigate the stealth whore play style.
Doc Holliday
17-05-13, 05:31
at one time it induced flash on people for whoring it. the crybabies didn't like that. i do.
too many times i have seen so called pvpers try for the gank then hit stealth and try and run. you all know who you are. you carry an ak with you.
im intrigued by the suggestions of this.
Maybe make stealth more visible to the naked eye (of the player not the character) but have a "to hit penalty" on the stealther. So they can aim for and target the stealther, and with a bit of luck (if not using AOE) land some hits to break him from stealth and whup his ass some more.
J@ck on Cr@ck
17-05-13, 09:08
at one time it induced flash on people for whoring it.
It still does.
William Antrim
17-05-13, 11:24
I think stealth is fine the way it is.
There are AOE weapons that can take down a tattered and fleeing spy easy enough. And in case you forgot there is something called true sight sanctum why not put it to use?
Not everyone has AOE though and only one class has TSS. This is not an adequate solution to the problem considering every spy and some PE's have stealth.
If it was me I would remove ALL stealth above 10 seconds. Thats plenty of time to run back into Club Veronique IMO.
Not everyone has AOE though and only one class has TSS. This is not an adequate solution to the problem considering every spy and some PE's have stealth.
If it was me I would remove ALL stealth above 10 seconds. Thats plenty of time to run back into Club Veronique IMO.
i agree. stealth is overpowered and should be no jail-free card.
Doc Holliday
17-05-13, 11:51
If it was me I would remove ALL stealth above 10 seconds. Thats plenty of time to run back into Club Veronique IMO.
careful. people might think you have a sense of humour bro.
J@ck on Cr@ck
17-05-13, 13:51
If it was me I would remove ALL stealth above 10 seconds. Thats plenty of time to run back into Club Veronique IMO.
You cant just take zoneline PVP as basis for your analysis.
What about the lone sniper for example, is he supposed to walk around in plane sight while looking for prey?
The spy needs stealth because he has low resists and for now nanites suck and psi shields are kinda useless.
How do you plan to compensate for that?
If you only allow 10 sec stealth then you can remove it altogether.
How did people deal with stealthers all these years and why is this suddenly such an issue?
You cant just take zoneline PVP as basis for your analysis.
What about the lone sniper for example, is he supposed to walk around in plane sight while looking for prey?
The spy needs stealth because he has low resists and for now nanites suck and psi shields are kinda useless.
How do you plan to compensate for that?
If you only allow 10 sec stealth then you can remove it altogether.
How did people deal with stealthers all these years and why is this suddenly such an issue?
Jack the Music Man! I'm afraid you're missing the sarcasm on William's post. I don't think you should take what he said too seriously :)
William Antrim
17-05-13, 14:11
You cant just take zoneline PVP as basis for your analysis.
What about the lone sniper for example, is he supposed to walk around in plane sight while looking for prey?
The spy needs stealth because he has low resists and for now nanites suck and psi shields are kinda useless.
How do you plan to compensate for that?
If you only allow 10 sec stealth then you can remove it altogether.
How did people deal with stealthers all these years and why is this suddenly such an issue?
Blackmaze is partially correct. Only the last line of my post was sarcasm. Yes you can argue all you want that the Spy needs stealth. I do not think they do. I had a spy before stealth was invented and held a good account of myself.
The APU is akin to a spy and he doesnt have stealth. How do you plan to compensate for that? I am playing devils advocate.
Removing stealth altogether instead of having it capped at 10 seconds is a good way of cutting off your nose to spite your face.
Psi shields are not useless but they do need to be addressed. Nannites need to make the spy have good solid resists (whilst they're active). These are external issues to the subject at hand however and should be disregarded when discussing stealth in my opinion. They ARE issues nonetheless and you are right to point them out. However keeping stealth as a band aid (plaster in english) to shore up these weaknesses is, in my mind, not a viable solution.
I would rather see these things fixed and provide a more accurate and deadly combination of nannite use and stealth tool use for the average combat spy to make himself useful.
The obliterator is useful for its 90 second reconnaissance and scouting role but in my opinion stealth 2 and 3 need to go. All they do is give the spy chance to get away and heal up. They are not used for their intended purpose - reconnaissance.
They are used to get out of jail free.
Ascension (the only APU I have seen actively playing and an experienced player) doesnt whine that his class needs stealth even though they have been shafted all over the place by the changes in 2.2. I do not see why spies should need it either.
Stealth to me should provide a breathing space, not be a fight winner.
Deus Ex Machina
17-05-13, 14:29
The obliterator is useful for its 90 second reconnaissance and scouting role but in my opinion stealth 2 and 3 need to go. All they do is give the spy chance to get away and heal up. They are not used for their intended purpose - reconnaissance.I like to disagree. I use Stealth 2 at the moment for reconnaissance. Might also use Stealth 3. I will always try to adapt my stealth time to the situation, and Stealthtime of Stealth 1 is very often too short, whereas all other Stealth times might in many situation be too long. Especially the Obliterator suffers from that, and it must always be considered that stealth cannot be exited easily. There sadly are too many situations where you have to wait for your stealth to count out quite some time before you start the next one, only that you can take another step, because you know you need longer to run by a few enemies AND find a hiding spot they cannot see at the moment. Cause when they see you only once, stealth is useless against NPCs.
If I remeber right, on Mars I mainly used Obliterator for two things:
1) Speak Propaganda in the Plaza 2 and annoying all those that came to kill me. (DoY Times)
2) Infiltrate HQs and other safezones, as you cannot use the stealth tool a second time in them.
All other situations went better with lesser stealth tools. And mostly I used Stealth for reconnaissence, not for battle.
Some one mentioned something about getting hit with something like a drug flash when you use stealth repeatedly.
What if using stealth gave you some kind of radiation exposure that stayed in your body for a certain amount of time.
If you re-stealth before it the radiation wears off the radiation concentration is then increased/doubled (think nanites).
Doing that for the third time with for example a Stealth Tool 2 will result in the radiation concentration level being high enough for you to become crippled (or maybe just like a drug flash). You'll still be stealthed but severely handicapped.
The reason I'm suggesting something like this because you can easily change the level /amount of radiation given by each stealth tool.
Also you can easily set how long the radiation stays in your body. Higher tool makes it stay longer?
To me this would hopefully allow things like the obilitorator to be used for reconnaissance, as you can plan to wait out the radiation somewhere.
While people spamming it in combat will soon regret it.
To me the hardest to balance would be the PE stealth tool, as it forces you to spam it due to its pathetic duration in order to make it of any use. Maybe if it took 5 uses within the time period the radiation lasts for that would be OK, but I'm not sure, just as I'm unsure how you would calculate the duration the radiation stays for. Possibly three times the duration of the stealth tool you're using.
E.g. if you're using a 10 second stealth then you have radiation for 30 seconds (remember 10 of those seconds would be while you're stealthed)
Scale this up you get the obilitorator.
90 second stealth means you would be radiated for 270 seconds, or 180 seconds after the stealth ends.
There are already many ways ingame to combat stealthing. Just because YOU can't do it on your ONE character doesn't mean it needs fixed. (You, in a general sense)
I totally agree with strife. There are many ways to get a spy down when he uses stealth. And as a Spy you're mostly absolute helpless against that, you simply die. How about making stealth stronger, to compensate for this? Maybe add some sort of additional shielding when stealthed?
Ok, the last part was just kidding, but I really think stealth is good the way it is.
I totally agree with strife. There are many ways to get a spy down when he uses stealth. And as a Spy you're mostly absolute helpless against that, you simply die. How about making stealth stronger, to compensate for this? Maybe add some sort of additional shielding when stealthed?
Ok, the last part was just kidding, but I really think stealth is good the way it is.
Tbh, I'm largely fine with it as it is though some people do seem to spam if if they take any damage what so ever.
I still think PE's need another stealth tool that lasts about 10 seconds to be fair.
Anyhow, if stealth had to be changed I've given a suggestion as to a possible way to do it above.
William Antrim
18-05-13, 19:59
Stealth is for cowards. Not every class has a way to fight it so no this is not a viable solution in my mind.
I like the idea of stealth giving a radiation damage tick though. That would be good. Get a radiation stack every second you're in stealth that would be smart.
J@ck on Cr@ck
18-05-13, 21:24
Get a radiation stack every second you're in stealth that would be smart.
Why go through such troubles when you could simply die for activating stealth ...
Drachenpaladin
18-05-13, 22:13
Why go through such troubles when you could simply die for activating stealth ...
I like that idea.
Why go through such troubles when you could simply die for activating stealth ...
Because if you weren't spamming stealth/stealth whoring the radiation damage would be relatively negligible.
Especially compared to a Cursed Soul to the face!
William Antrim
19-05-13, 11:20
Because if you weren't spamming stealth/stealth whoring the radiation damage would be relatively negligible.
Especially compared to a Cursed Soul to the face!
This.
J@ck on Cr@ck
11-06-13, 15:42
Not every class has a way to fight it so no this is not a viable solution in my mind.
I am assuming that you are talking about 1 on 1 situations and random PVP and not about OP figths since "Not every class has a way to fight it so no this is not a viable solution in my mind." is no valid argument during OP fights. Plasma weapons for example are able to hit people while stealthed. Then there are AOE weapons, winding argument comes to mind, which can "mark" spies and make them visible for everybody. And of course there is the true sight sanctum, USE IT!
As for 1 on 1 situations ...
I fail to see how these radiation stacks would enable, say a rifle PE (any class really) to kill a spy in 1 on 1 situations. I believe all these radiation stacks would achieve is discourage PVP, because spies would simply stealth sooner than they do now or they just stealth and run away.
I get the feeling people are upset about the spies healing up during stealth, but you should keep in mind that spies cant use nanites during stealth and usually you dont have the time to inject yourself before stealthing when you are in the process of being killed. Even if nanites are still running while stealthing their duration is very short. All this means is that the person not stealthing can heal up even better than the spy.
You could simply disable health regeneration during stealth, but again this would discourage PVP.
William Antrim
11-06-13, 18:55
None of that will discourage pvp. If the spy can die while he is in stealth then that is a good thing. If he has to run the risk of dying by his own hand then that too is a good thing. It will stop all these stealth as soon as you get hit wannabe spies.
My first char was a spy. I took him to op fights when there were only a handful of good spies playing NC. I went to fights before stealth and I died as much as I killed. It was a better time back then.
It wouldnt discourage pvp it would make the spy think about his fight and whether he could beat the opponent or not, not when would he need to hit the stealth and get the fuck out of the way before the other guy had a chance to retaliate.
P.s healing rate? huh? What class can heal faster than a spy? (besides a ppu) Spy can use the heal tool or the heal spell just the same as the PE. Tank can only use tools. Healing rates are pretty similar across the board tbh. Damage output whilst not receiving too much by return is where the spy wins. He wins a war of attrition more or less every time vs another class. Because of his stealth.
This is why the stealth needs to have a penalty. A radiation stack OR your idea of no heal while in stealth are both valid ideas. The spy needs a penalty of some form on his stealth. It should not be used to carry on the fight if the other class doesnt have it. That is what makes it OP.
In reference to your original question no not every class has a way to combat stealth. Yes tanks have another gun they can bring, PPUs have TSS yeah also true. APU has a barrel which might catch the spy if he is incredibly stupid. HC Pe might catch him with a fire stack sure. So ok HC and PPU can find the spy - you mostly find those at op fights. So that means you "rely" on those guys to catch the spy out.
No this is not a valid solution. Pistol PE has no way to fight the stealth (No DoT from the Wyatt Earp any more), nor do APUs (No DoT any more from anything visible - Fire Apoc is all burst now I believe). Damage boost is not a viable option as it is too slow for the PE to cast and only the holy one is any good for lighting them up due to RoF and range.
Rifle PE has nothing to fight it that I can honestly think of. Other spies have nothing to fight stealth barring their own stealth so no I do not know what other stuff you can use.
You cannot balance pvp based on situations either. It has to be balanced 1v1 first in my mind. If you try to start to think of every single combination of chars and balance them all then you will be here into the next decade tbh.
It would be nice if there was some sort of handicap for stealth like a drug flash when they come out equal to using 1 drug and perhaps a lower time of use, it might be unpopular to say but spies can compete in fights and even in 1v1 thanks to their speed and damage so it is a bit ridiculous that they also have a free get out of jail free card with no downside, hell I'd even take a slight buff to spies to have something like this if people really think spies would be so useless without a never die ability.
People might be trying to say *oh but you can just aoe and plasma* and to that I answer have you ever tried killing a stealth with plasma... IF you slowed them and you aren't slow and you are right up next to them when they stealth yes you might do it, most of the time you wont though, as for aoe.... yes right after a fight where I might be on low hp all I want to do is spam mindless aoe around me in hopes of hitting somebody that could have gone in any direction that sounds like a great plan!
As for people saying a spy without stealth is a worse version of apus spys have the speed advantage, I've never seen a apu move faster than a spy and spys have the smallest hit box, a further advantage AND they have nanites with which they can get great resist (something people tend to ignore for some reason).
So when you combine all this together at the very least reducing the stealth time so its breathing room as was said instead of *hah to slow* tool is the least that should be done, that or a nerf to spies so they really need a get out of jail free card they can use as much as they like with no downsides.
You choose spies, or else I'd like apus and tanks to have a shield reducing outgoing and incomg damage by 100% for 60s so we also have a free escape tool, granted it wouldn't be quite so handy cos you could still track us but it would be balanced out by the potential suicide aoe spam not working against it.
i like the OP idea, but tbh i like it more the way it is now.
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