View Full Version : Resurrection should cause Synaptic Impairment
People are self killing to get rid of their drug flashes.
In my opinion (as convenient as it is to use this method) this should be considered unfair and an exploit.
I find that being resurrected should take you out of the fight for a little bit. It may still fix your drug flash but you would trade this off for SI.
It seems only fair.
This also creates an additional opportunity for various quality of resurrection spells. Higher quality means less SI.
Try looking at the wider angle and not just your own OP play style before you comment :)
Try looking at the wider angle and not just your own OP play style before you comment :)
If I understand this right, you have an issue with the possibility of evading the drug flash.
With your last sentence, you already point out why addressing this issue by altering the resurrection is not a feasible solution.
Twisting this into a master plan for adding value to build quality and the different variants of resurrection modules is not going to change that. The resurrection time and the health pool regained are good differentiators.
The problem is that people can evade the full malus of drug use, but still make use of the full bonus.
The way resurrection works is not the problem imho.
This would highly effect OP fights. Or was that what you wanted?
This would highly effect OP fights. Or was that what you wanted?
It's not my goal, but I realize it has an impact. Feel free to discuss away on if this is good or not. I'm throwing this in here for the devs to check where people stand with their perspectives.
My initial comment to look out of the box is meant so that people don't react with their initial panic: "THIS AFFECTS MY OP WAR GAME PLAY!!" :)
The obvious solution would be to simply track drug status and flash through death... makes sense from an rp point too, drugs are still in your system as are toxins.
Dying (both via GRing out and being rezzed) would have no effect on drugs or drug flash. While dead timers would pause (some bs about hearts not beating... w/e).
The obvious solution would be to simply track drug status and flash through death... makes sense from an rp point too, drugs are still in your system as are toxins.
It wouldn't still be in your system, you're a clone of your DNA.
I agree that avoiding drugflash should be addressed though. This is not what was intended with drugs and the rez spell. Drugs should have a drawback so avoiding it is an exploit in my opinion.
I don't think adding SI to rez is the answer though. Perhaps the drugflash timer should continue counting down through death and you can't be rezzed until it's finished? I dunno. I don't think rez should be punished with SI though.
Am I missing something or when did this become an issue?
SI from Res at OP fights would simply make it not at all worth the risk for the PPU to res anyone until all fighting is over.
Leave drugflashes as they are tbh..
Drugs could use a slight nerf though, since the stats they give are crazy..
NOT a main stat nerf though! A subskill nerf only - And thats a fucking important detail, since it would nerf PE's even more into oblivion than they already are..
And the "Rez give SI" idea is just horrible..
As it has already been said, it would have a major effect on opfights.
If a PPU can get a rez off durring a opfight, its deserved (unless zerging, but thats another story).
It wouldn't still be in your system, you're a clone of your DNA.
I agree that avoiding drugflash should be addressed though. This is not what was intended with drugs and the rez spell. Drugs should have a drawback so avoiding it is an exploit in my opinion.
I don't think adding SI to rez is the answer though. Perhaps the drugflash timer should continue counting down through death and you can't be rezzed until it's finished? I dunno. I don't think rez should be punished with SI though.
You're not simply cloned, your status is coppied by the GR as well (I mean, even your haircut is maintained lol). Anyway, these RP details aren't quite the point...
Leave drugflashes as they are tbh..
Drugs could use a slight nerf though, since the stats they give are crazy..
NOT a main stat nerf though! A subskill nerf only - And thats a fucking important detail, since it would nerf PE's even more into oblivion than they already are..
And the "Rez give SI" idea is just horrible..
As it has already been said, it would have a major effect on opfights.
If a PPU can get a rez off durring a opfight, its deserved (unless zerging, but thats another story).
The issue with avoiding drugflash isn't so much that people are doing anything wrong, but that drugs seem like they are too good. Drugging should not be a necessity, part of the issue is the massive subskill bonuses granted, I agree here for sure.
William Antrim
25-03-13, 19:52
I am against the idea. Drugs are one of the few cash sinks in the game. We need to encourage drug use in nc not punish it.
I am against the idea. Drugs are one of the few cash sinks in the game. We need to encourage drug use in nc not punish it.
I agree 100 percent that we need more cash sinks, but drugs aren't the answer, heck most of the commonly spammed ones are recyclable anyway.
Appreciate people are against the idea. Please try and provide an alternate solution to people exploiting methods to get rid of the drug flash. That was my initial intend anyway :)
I agree 100 percent that we need more cash sinks, but drugs aren't the answer, heck most of the commonly spammed ones are recyclable anyway.
If anything the drug flash should be reduced/more like it was in nc1. The drug flash now after just 1 drug can sometimes be cripplingly crazy.
It really depends on whether you consider dying as an exceptable means of getting rid of df. I mean redrugging will get rid of the flash, you van go for 30 mins doing this without any flash. Maybe limit the amount of drugs you can take to one.
I don't consider it unfair to kill yourself to get rid of the drugflash. Especially in fighting. Since doing that cancels out a fighter and forces a PPU to ressurect that player, and that is very risky for a PPU. So yes, the player itself avoids the consequences of the drug flash but the team stands in for him. And since that happens in a team situation I'm perfectly ok with this.
In PvE I rarely see drug ressourections and in single PvP or P2 PvP i don't see a problem either. Or do you want to wait while your opponents are sitting yout their drug flash, SI or any other punishment?
And it's not that they avoid a downtime completly, they have to wait at least 30 sec till the ressourection succeded. Sometimes even more till the PPU is ready.
And to the RP thing. Druges are purged out of the system, like every other bad thing. If it weren't and you died from poison, you'd simply die again, and again, and again, and again,.... Heck the spell even puts together a corpse encounterd by a melee tank. So drugs shouldn't be the Problem.
braydagner
26-03-13, 07:03
I am against the idea. Drugs are one of the few cash sinks in the game. We need to encourage drug use in nc not punish it.
this.
heck most of the commonly spammed ones are recyclable anyway.
solution?
make them not recyclable/researchable. as a money sink, it's only logical.
solution?
make them not recyclable/researchable. as a money sink, it's only logical.
See now that is a good idea.
Thanks for all the replies. I'd like tosay again though that the discussion here is in regard to drug flash and not drug effectiveness :)
Do you feel that cheating your way out of the drug flash by self_kill and resurrecting is fine or not? If not, what would you change?
:)
Thanks for all the replies. I'd like tosay again though that the discussion here is in regard to drug flash and not drug effectiveness :)
Do you feel that cheating your way out of the drug flash by self_kill and resurrecting is fine or not? If not, what would you change?
:)
I think its perfectly fine. I even made a (low level) PPU to rez myself.
William Antrim
26-03-13, 20:11
Agreed.
Lucas Kell
26-03-13, 20:22
Personally I think it is a bit of an exploit. Especially when you think of the defending OP team. I could simply have an alt PPU in the underground dual logged. Once drugflash hits, I jump into the UG, kill myself and rez myself. No risk, no probs.
I think the solution should be clear though... Simply make drugflash stay through rez, not through GR. That way, you cant kill yourself to clear drugflash unless you want to wait for SI, but at the same time, legitimate rezzing is unaffected.
The only problem is that this would effectively kill drugs all together, they would become another unused pointless item. I think death is enough of a penalty for the removal of drug flash, personally I don't see this as a problem at all in game.
The only problem is that this would effectively kill drugs all together, they would become another unused pointless item. I think death is enough of a penalty for the removal of drug flash, personally I don't see this as a problem at all in game.
Drugs are awesome, and should not be killed off. I think the issue I have with them however is the penalty for using them is in some ways too harsh. Drug flash is so debilitating that people are forced to die to get rid of them. I would much rather have penalties for drugging that you can't escape, but that don't make you useless. Something like withdrawal will slowly kill you (unless healed by a PPU (takes a rezz ammout of time) or for cash in medicare). You can avoid withdrawal indefinitely by taking more drugs, but each time after the first you take drugs, it reduces some con element by some amount (doesn't have to be the same for all drugs, but say hlt, or resists, or something). In this way, you're never going to suddenly be unable to fight, but drugging over and over becomes unfeasible. Withdrawal also isn't crippling, if you've only drugged once or twice it's just a mild malus to healing, but if you've drugged like 5 times, healing would work at a snails pace until you were cured or waited it out.
Part of the issue I have with drugs now is that there is no differentiation between mild and heavy drug use. It would be awesome if using one performance enhancing drug sparingly wasn't an issue at all and provided almost no negatives (this would be realistic), but using drugs heavily becomes a tradeoff. It would also hopefully make the shorter duration drugs more viable since a little bit if drug flash or a little bit of dependence isn't a huge deal (and in fact taking more drugs can temporarily offset the dependence hits if you take the right ones :)).
William Antrim
26-03-13, 21:58
I would rather just remove drug flash altogether.
I would rather just remove drug flash altogether.
It would be silly, might as well just give people extra points to spend in their char sheet. Trade-offs are what make neocron fun.
Lucas Kell
26-03-13, 22:30
The only problem is that this would effectively kill drugs all together, they would become another unused pointless item. I think death is enough of a penalty for the removal of drug flash, personally I don't see this as a problem at all in game.
Well the problem here is that the current system favours people who have easy access to a safe rez. To me this needs to be made fair, so if removal of the ability to rez out of drugflash would put them at risk of becoming useless, then drugflash needs to be removed altogether, that way its fair for both sides.
At the moment, the ability for defenders to get an easy safe rez means that attackers are at an automatic disadvantage. Because an alt rezzer can be used, doing this doesn't even take an active PPU out of combat for the defending team. It's no wonder attackers often resort to AFK hacking or AOE on the UG with this level of disadvantage.
Personally I think it is a bit of an exploit. Especially when you think of the defending OP team. I could simply have an alt PPU in the underground dual logged. Once drugflash hits, I jump into the UG, kill myself and rez myself. No risk, no probs.
I think the solution should be clear though... Simply make drugflash stay through rez, not through GR. That way, you cant kill yourself to clear drugflash unless you want to wait for SI, but at the same time, legitimate rezzing is unaffected.
I agree with this completely.
I think death is enough of a penalty for the removal of drug flash, personally I don't see this as a problem at all in game.
But there is no penalty if people are getting rezzed.
But there is no penalty if people are getting rezzed.
The penalty is having to get rezzed. Then rebuffed and then redrugged. It takes some amount of time and it takes the cooperation of another player. That, to me, is enough of a penalty. If you have DF persistant through death then you will have no one ever use drugs essentially rendering them another pointless unused item.
The penalty is having to get rezzed. Then rebuffed and then redrugged. It takes some amount of time and it takes the cooperation of another player. That, to me, is enough of a penalty. If you have DF persistant through death then you will have no one ever use drugs essentially rendering them another pointless unused item.
If there is such an issue with drugflash then why not propose changes in the brainport instead of exploiting? Either the drugflash is fine and people shouldn't be using "loopholes" or the drugflash should be altered thus rendering the "loophole" pointless. As it stands this is not the way the game was meant to be played and imo shouldn't be played.
Lucas Kell
27-03-13, 02:58
The penalty is having to get rezzed. Then rebuffed and then redrugged. It takes some amount of time and it takes the cooperation of another player. That, to me, is enough of a penalty. If you have DF persistant through death then you will have no one ever use drugs essentially rendering them another pointless unused item.
But another player doesn't have to be involved. Like I've stated previously, as a defending player, you can simply have an alt char in the UG ready to rez and rebuff. What Jodo is saying is right. The system should be designed in such a way that killing yourself to get around drugflash should not be required and is a loophole that should be closed.
Doc Holliday
27-03-13, 06:28
People should implant a moveon cpu in their heads and this should make them immune to drugflash.
Personally i would rather see DF removed and the person start to take damage over time from too many drugs/toxins/poisons in the body. Coupled with some kind of anti-toxin to kill off that poison which will take time to inject (thinking nanite style) would be a good one.
This works in multiple ways.
1. no df. keep fighting.
2. still limits drug intake.
3. nanite cleanser stops player getting heals etc from friendly ppu so forces them to figure out at what point its more beneficial to remove stacks of drug "debuff" or get a heal to ride out damage taken.
Sorry if this is a hijack but im in one of my genius moods today.
People should implant a moveon cpu in their heads and this should make them immune to drugflash.
Personally i would rather see DF removed and the person start to take damage over time from too many drugs/toxins/poisons in the body. Coupled with some kind of anti-toxin to kill off that poison which will take time to inject (thinking nanite style) would be a good one.
This works in multiple ways.
1. no df. keep fighting.
2. still limits drug intake.
3. nanite cleanser stops player getting heals etc from friendly ppu so forces them to figure out at what point its more beneficial to remove stacks of drug "debuff" or get a heal to ride out damage taken.
Sorry if this is a hijack but im in one of my genius moods today.
Hmmmmmmm, This is actually pretty intriguing.
William Antrim
27-03-13, 15:40
Or you can make the drug flash become a toxin which slowly kills the person. Lowering their body health permanently for the duration of the timer. So then their HP max will go lower all the time making it easier for them to be killed. The player can still receive healing up to the the max hp so they are not totally at risk but they need to either remove the toxins (with Doc's Nannite tool) OR they go down to 5 body health minimum (for example) and can be killed in one shot. Death would remove the toxin automatically. You can still get a rez to remove it however as this part does not need to be changed.
William, would this toxin stay upon death/ress?
If we're talking about death as a loophole then simply remove the kill-self command, or better yet make the kill-self command take longer, maybe 1-2 minutes much like resetting position.
The problem is not drugrez; its the debilitating drugflash status.
It's basically impossible to PVP while DF, movements are crippled and you can't see shit.
If the DF was something that didn't render a runner completely useless, than I bet most people would simply fight trough it.
Making it impossible to move/see/use items is totally overkill when considering drug use in NC.
If we're talking about death as a loophole then simply remove the kill-self command, or better yet make the kill-self command take longer, maybe 1-2 minutes much like resetting position.
I like this!
William Antrim
27-03-13, 18:40
William, would this toxin stay upon death/ress?
reread the other post. It is in there.
The problem is not drugrez; its the debilitating drugflash status.
It's basically impossible to PVP while DF, movements are crippled and you can't see shit.
If the DF was something that didn't render a runner completely useless, than I bet most people would simply fight trough it.
Making it impossible to move/see/use items is totally overkill when considering drug use in NC.
yes hence why I said have a toxin that temporarily reduces body health (and thus overall hp) for a period of time. You can still fight but you are now easier to kill - less HP. Maybe even less resists too? Have it work in the same was as synaptic impairment even if you need to but only affecting the constitution of the individual - not his weapon skills.
If we're talking about death as a loophole then simply remove the kill-self command, or better yet make the kill-self command take longer, maybe 1-2 minutes much like resetting position.
Do you even think before posting Faid ?
Removing kill_self is a bandaid solution, and one that can easily be avoided, simply by having clanmate kill you. Even for P2, just get dev'd by someone, zone, and go die next to PPU.
Theres nothing wrong with the kill_self, the source of the problem is the drugflash maluses.
Do you even think before posting Faid ?
Removing kill_self is a bandaid solution, and one that can easily be avoided, simply by having clanmate kill you. Even for P2, just get dev'd by someone, zone, and go die next to PPU.
Theres nothing wrong with the kill_self, the source of the problem is the drugflash maluses.
Do you even think before you post Kame?
Jesus Christ m8 read my post, I was referring to the comments people have made about Killing yourself being a loophole to rid you of DF. This idea would be a solution to that particular loophole. I don't even think it's a problem, but i offered up a solution for it anyway.
I happen to agree with you that DF is the problem, in many cases DF = Death anyway.
[ edited ]
reread the other post. It is in there.
yes hence why I said have a toxin that temporarily reduces body health (and thus overall hp) for a period of time. You can still fight but you are now easier to kill - less HP. Maybe even less resists too? Have it work in the same was as synaptic impairment even if you need to but only affecting the constitution of the individual - not his weapon skills.
Yea... this idea is good, or some variation of it. I like the idea that drugging will slowly hurt your surviveability, via max hp, resists, reduced healing, or some combo of the above. As far dying goes, I second the proposal that GRing removes the penalties, but a rezz simply restores you to the status you had when you died as far as drug effects go.
Edit: Also, come on people, let's keep it civil. Everyone in this thread is here because they want to improve neocron (I hope). Let's try to refrain from attacking each other; we're all on the same side: trying to help make NC better.
William Antrim
28-03-13, 01:15
No, rez should clear any ill effects on the body what ever form they take. Dying should cleanse the soul. I am dead against any persistent effects through death. (pardon the pun).
OK. This is SI after rez is a crap idea. SI on rezzing impedes game play and offers no benefit.
SI on rezzing is a good idea for a multitude of reasons. It does not impede gameplay, and adds to tactics. It could help finally bring an end to endless op wars where people keep rezzing over and over again. It would make you think about how much ammo you have to take, drugs, weight, etc etc. Let's be honest... right now, in op wars, rezzing is a complete joke. It effectively stalemates an attack because PPUs are so hard to kill.
Let's not forget that most Cyberpunk games and even in some literature...they don't allow you to do any alteration of your clone, or gene replication, while under the influence of any toxin/drug/etc, or you come out with a rotten pumpkin shaped head and you're then retarded.
SI on rez
Drugs should clear on rez
Pretty much good on that. Every other game/pen and paper/cyberpunk has SI/temporary malus on ressurect.
Stalemating the op fights has been fucking lame as of late. The SI time would at least aid and give a little bit of time for hackers/fighters instead of REZ FIGHT REZ FIGHT REZ FIGHT. Right off the rez and ready to fight? That's jackassery, at best, and ruins gameplay for the attackers when the defenders already have an underground they can go hide in and buff/heal/drug/drug rez. This would aid in attacking and defending, and stave off the ridiculousness that is the neverending op fight.
I can imagine why people wouldn't want SI on resurrection and I'm willing to accept that. But I still feel drugs should have a lasting effect.
I'm all for changing the drug flash into something else, like a toxic like suggested by William, I really liked that idea.
Long OP fights are a good thing...
It's certainly not impossible to kill, or at the very least, stop a PPU from rezzing.
William Antrim
28-03-13, 17:53
That comes down to player skill and is nothing to do with game mechanics. You cannot change game mechanics due to player skill. At least I hope that they dont do that. WOW dumbed down its operating system and many of the hardcore fans cried out that it had been made too easy and they hated it.
People like a challenge. Making things too easy leads to boredom.
However balancing things to make them more fair - risk vs reward - is a thing that I think NC needs to do better.
Skimmed through it.
I like the idea a lot. If you're ressed in a fight, you can't just jump back into the fight. Nothing like GR SI, but enough where you're out for 2-3 minutes.
To handle drug ressing, it'd be nice to see kill_self on a timer, and not give SI on res.
SI from being ressed would be preposterous in anything other than a pve situation. No thanks.
To keep things clear, feel free to discuss the timer on self_kill on the newly created thread.
http://forum.neocron-game.com/showthread.php?148386-Put-a-timer-on-the-self_kill-command
demonssword
29-03-13, 19:47
Timer for kill_self I don't think could fix the problem in opp fights problem because you will just get another friendly player to kill you instead what if you wanted to die would involve standing still for the whole of 5-10seconds tops even fully buffed. Nice idea though.
Still prefer that the drug flash adds to your SI on being ressed. So for instance if you have a 3min drug on you, on death you get 5% SI, 6min 10%, 10min 15% per drug of that type. Capping off at say 50% SI on being ressed, maybe a bit less.
As someone offered as an option to have intoxication put a small damage over time effect on the user why the drugs are active with the more drugs you are on the worse it gets. I like the idea of this but sense it may also cause a prob. Even with something like 3min drug = 3hp/3sec, 6min drug = 6hp/3sec, 10min drug =10hp/3sec. Characters like PEs who tend to require 2-3 drugs min to just keep up with other classes or to get the stats needed to use items you could be losing 26hp per 3sec tick. Spys of course not having the potential HP of a PE could be in even more trouble, though require less drugs to compete. In a game that is still currently very tank dominated this would no doubt tip the balance even more in their favour.
William Antrim
31-03-13, 12:09
No demonsword. You just said you liked my idea then completely made up your own interpretation of it. That's not how I described it at all. I said when drug flash hits it should become a body health nerf. Not a hp nerf and not until after the 20 mins of drugging we get now.
Doc Holliday
31-03-13, 14:44
Timer for kill_self I don't think could fix the problem in opp fights problem because you will just get another friendly player to kill you instead what if you wanted to die would involve standing still for the whole of 5-10seconds tops even fully buffed. Nice idea though.
Still prefer that the drug flash adds to your SI on being ressed. So for instance if you have a 3min drug on you, on death you get 5% SI, 6min 10%, 10min 15% per drug of that type. Capping off at say 50% SI on being ressed, maybe a bit less.
As someone offered as an option to have intoxication put a small damage over time effect on the user why the drugs are active with the more drugs you are on the worse it gets. I like the idea of this but sense it may also cause a prob. Even with something like 3min drug = 3hp/3sec, 6min drug = 6hp/3sec, 10min drug =10hp/3sec. Characters like PEs who tend to require 2-3 drugs min to just keep up with other classes or to get the stats needed to use items you could be losing 26hp per 3sec tick. Spys of course not having the potential HP of a PE could be in even more trouble, though require less drugs to compete. In a game that is still currently very tank dominated this would no doubt tip the balance even more in their favour.
sorry but i think this idea is massively shit. its overcomplicating and incredible in its ability to nerf the shit out of classes who decide to use drugs.
Drugs are part of the cyberpunk atmosphere. Combat drugs are there to make the best better. Lance armstrong will tell you this if he ever gives another interview. Do not fucking ruin them.
I hate to say it but i despair at some of the ideas in threads like this and worry that the community is sometimes just spouting off ideas to get some kind of recognition from its peers and will actually be detrimental to the game.
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