View Full Version : LE & Vehicle Protection
The events were fun, but my concerns about the recent changes span the last few test patches, not just the most recent one.
First, I applaud the idea of making it possible to buff and cast beneficial spells upon LE'd players even if you lack one. This is a nice change that is welcomed and long awaited, particularly as I tend to be a PVE-Only player myself. But then, at the same time it seems that now anyone can destroy anyone's vehicles wantonly and freely despite who owns them, LE or not? That just feels to me like development is confused about what direction you want to go with this, to be honest.
It makes zero sense to me to make vehicles, which are rather expensive (yes, they are, despite the devaluation more experienced players start putting on money) destroyable by anyone at any time; Especially taking into consideration that the newer players joining us in droves lately, who prefer to keep their LE's in more often than not, tend not to be able to afford them very often. In my opinion we should instead focus on fixing the bug with the rhinos that allows that to happen in the current retail version, and make it IMpossible to destroy LE user vehicles entirely instead.
Unless of course someone can demonstrate a truly valid reason for new or poor players to have their hard earned vehicles go up in smoke because some jerk felt particularly malicious or trollish at the time? I don't really see that happening though. :/
Or perhaps I just misread the patch notes? Hopefully that's the case.
You read the notes correctly. We're still waiting for the dev explanation on this matter.
You read the notes correctly. We're still waiting for the dev explanation on this matter.
In regards to the vehicle issue, the change was deemed the most acceptable for the time being.
We fully understand this makes mid to high level vehicle use/farming less viable for LE'd players and we are of the opinion that this is a moderate and thus acceptable drawback.
After all, the Wastelands are a dangerous place.
Could you please explain the reasoning for the change though? It's a drastic change and I think the community should at least have it explained to them as to why such a change is to occur.
Judging from Mokoi's post it's because of the bug with LE'd gunners being able to attack player vehicles. This is just the only "fix" they could do right now, hopefully it's temporary until a real fix can happen.
Could you please explain the reasoning for the change though? It's a drastic change and I think the community should at least have it explained to them as to why such a change is to occur.
There are a number of different constellations to take into account:
Vehicle with LE driver/passenger and LE gunner
Vehicle with LE driver/passenger and non-LE gunner
Vehicle with non-LE driver/passenger and LE gunner
Vehicle with non-LE driver/passenger and non-LE gunner
Any ruleset for their interplay that involves a state where the vehicle is immune to damage, makes possible abuse.
This is especially true for any ruleset that allows players to switch between LE/combat-mode in an instant by merely re-seating.
It is however also true when the state is always that of immunity (e.g. LE VHC cannot take damage and cannot be entered by non-LE), as you can grief other simply by blocking loot.
We wanted a clear ruleset where no abuse can occur.
With vehicles being subject to damage in any constellation and LE players being locked out of PvP, this is the case.
It is the players sole choice to be able to fight for his vehicle or enjoy the godmode privilege provided by the LE.
The problem I see here is of a different kind:
Vehicles should not be too easily ganked by common firearms and should certainly have a fair chance to prevent the fait of destruction - be it through combat or fleeing.
This is not something that applies to the LE drivers only.
SO LE'd players should be able to shoot vehicles as well then right? As it stands now UN-LE'd people can damage LE'd Vehicles with no recourse for the LE'd vehicle to shoot back.
How can the LE'd person fight for his vehicle? They currently cannot shoot back. So am I to understand that you guys are going to make it so everyone can shoot any vehicle regardless of LE status - to make things fair across the board? To prevent any abuse.
Because as the patch stands now there is a ton of abuse against the LE'd vehicle.
There are a number of different constellations to take into account:
Vehicle with LE driver/passenger and LE gunner
Vehicle with LE driver/passenger and non-LE gunner
Vehicle with non-LE driver/passenger and LE gunner
Vehicle with non-LE driver/passenger and non-LE gunner
Any ruleset for their interplay that involves a state where the vehicle is immune to damage, makes possible abuse.
This is especially true for any ruleset that allows players to switch between LE/combat-mode in an instant by merely re-seating.
It is however also true when the state is always that of immunity (e.g. LE VHC cannot take damage and cannot be entered by non-LE), as you can grief other simply by blocking loot.
We wanted a clear ruleset where no abuse can occur.
With vehicles being subject to damage in any constellation and LE players being locked out of PvP, this is the case.
It is the players sole choice to be able to fight for his vehicle or enjoy the godmode privilege provided by the LE.
The problem I see here is of a different kind:
Vehicles should not be too easily ganked by common firearms and should certainly have a fair chance to prevent the fait of destruction - be it through combat or fleeing.
This is not something that applies to the LE drivers only.
wait........WHAT?
"you wanted a clear ruleset where no abuse can occur" so eliminate a minor abuse by opening up a bigger can of worms :/
and oh by the way, its not just le'd people who block loot. i can see it now, if the le'd guy wants to level with his vhc he has to leave because 9 times out of 10 some un le'd douche bag is gonna start shooting his vhc. and your examples were with all gunner vhc's. what about quads, hovertechs, barbie car, and gliders? this is all a movement to push people to remove the le. im for pvp, dont get me wrong, but im MORE for fairness and this IS NOT fair. one can shoot, the other cannot.....abuse WILL occur!
I have to agree with this, it seems like really the wrong way to go about solving this 'problem'. And "The wastelands are a dangerous place" just sounds like a handwave to me.
I mean just last week there was a HUGE argument in global chat because some jackass destroyed some newbies' Rhino that they pretty much just spent all their money on and were out leveling with and trying out. The one who destroyed it? Openly admitted he just did it to troll the newbies, just for the hell of it because he felt like it.
So a couple innocent people get victimized by some ahole because they were driving the one vehicle it was possible in. Now we want to make it possible in anything? ....Are you serious? :/
I think Mokoi is absolutely right. Wanna go rhinoing and killing lots of high level mobs in dangerous areas? Get your LE out and go for a ride.
It is really that simple.
And it's not like that there are no other possibilities for LE'd players to level.
[snip]
The problem I see here is of a different kind:
Vehicles should not be too easily ganked by common firearms and should certainly have a fair chance to prevent the fait of destruction - be it through combat or fleeing.
This is not something that applies to the LE drivers only.
This, is something I very much agree with and is the much bigger issue. If vehicles didn't take so much damage from regular firearms then the changes that all vehicles regardless of the drivers LE status would not have such a big impact.
As was previously announced, a proper statement on the changes regarding LE & vehicle use is being prepared.
The above marks my personal understanding of the situation and is not exhaustive. I would suggest to sit tight and wait for the broader picture to be laid out.
Just know that your feedback is not ignored, but receives the attention it deserves.
So if you have _new_ aspects to add to the debate, please do.
As was previously announced, a proper statement on the changes regarding LE & vehicle use is being prepared.
The above marks my personal understanding of the situation and is not exhaustive. I would suggest to sit tight and wait for the broader picture to be laid out.
Just know that your feedback is not ignored, but receives the attention it deserves.
So if you have _new_ aspects to add to the debate, please do.
I truly want to thank you for this. I can't tell you how much I feel like the community is shunned from important decisions that are being implemented by the DEVs. Your posts (whether I disagree or not) are what most people want to see in the Brainport forum. It's ideally the place where community can provide feedback and the DEV team can respond. So again, thanks!
Now for the topic on hand..
I agree with you Mokoi in respect to small arms damage against a tank, which is outright the problem. The fact that a rhino(a tank) will deal ~420 damage to a firemob of 120/120 rank, gets out-done by a Creed (a rare HC cannon) ~600 damage to a firemob of 120/120 rank. In other words, if I were to go leveling in a rhino, small arms, such as the Creed will completely destroy my rhino in a matter of no time. Is that a problem? Yes. Will it be abused if the vehicle implementation takes place? Yes.
Do I feel as though this is the issue that needs to be addressed because of this implementation? -No. I feel that once again you're dropping the ball from a perspective of a new player. [OT] Neocron gets new players and returning players every day. Why cripple their ability to have a fair chance at leveling or even getting the "Rhinoing" experience.
As everyone pointed out in this thread, as of now, LE'd people are already at a disadvantage. To say that the "wastelands are a dangerous" place is like beating up an already dead body. We know that wastelands are dangerous because the mob damage is out of line. The fact that UN-LE'd people make the wastelands even more dangerous is basically a Kidney Shot to an LE'd person leveling, even worse if they're a new player.
@Nabbl the thing is, with the increase in population, cutting down potential areas to level for LE'd players doesn't help ANY side (whether its LE'd or NON-LE'd). Think about it. Non-LE'd players are typically the ones complaining about how nobody takes out their LE. They complain about the "carebears" and what not. IF you were to minimize the leveling areas for LE'd people, it would take LE'd people even LONGER to level up to PvP standards, and thus, create a LONGER wait for Un-LE'd players complaining about the lack of fights. If you're still not understanding.. Imagine a brand new clan with returning players who haven't played NC in years. Most of the time, these people will be leveling with an LE'd chip in their head because "after all, the wastelands is a dangerous place". These LE'd players need leveling areas. The obvious fact that leveling places are being "fixed" are actually making it harder for people to level already. What this does is push players into certain areas which are do-able and "efficient" (i.g. Regants Legacy). So instead of promoting the idea of lesser places for newbs/LE'd players to level, you should be doing the opposite in order for people to eventually take their LE's out.
Furthermore....
@Mokoi
Just yesterday I experienced the total opposite of what you said about godmode privilege. A member of a prominent CityAdmin clan who often are known for posting on these forums attacked my Rhino. The only godmode privilege I was experiencing was the fact that he was the superior person because he could blow up my vehicle. This person who was hunting in a popular zone H_12 started shooting at my rhino. Mind you, this is my first DAY ever of rhinoing on Titan (I wanted to take advantage of double xp). I enter the zone, 2 minutes later this guy is shooting my rhino because he DIDNT want me in the zone. He felt like I was stealing his mobs. Immediately as he starts shooting, I can do nothing but ask him to stop shooting me. Sure Wastelands are a dangerous place, the imbalanced mob damage makes it a dangerous place. The fact that I have to worry about greedy people who want to hog the zone is something that seems unfair. He had a godmode privilege simply because all I could do to defend myself is using the English language, in which case, I was lucky he knew this. I brought up to his attention that there are people like him which make the community SO TOXIC. He felt threatened that I was going to steal HIS zone/mobs (last I checked, your name isn't attached to these mobs) proceeds to shoot me without asking any questions. Just shoots me because Neocron has become "Shoot first, care later". What he ended up saying to me was "It's not like it matters, its not like you can't repair it", to which I responded: "Dude I don't have the resources to repair it, so would you please stop shooting". Notice the underlined. Most people who arn't playing the game 24/7 or for other reasons, don't have $$$ or time, don't have the ability to just say "oh sure, blow up my rhino, i'll just buy a new one". I was thankful and appreciative that he stopped shooting me soon after. The point is, the Wastelands are dangerous already (my Rhino eventually blew up an hour later because I was zerged by Grims (3x)/Hoppers/Reapers/TerrorMaulers)... The point is, there are plenty of other people in my situation who are LE'd levelers. Who go out to the wastelands in hopes of being able to level to the point of one day removing the LE. The DEV team should be balancing the game, not making it one-dimensional.
EDIT-----------
So a couple innocent people get victimized by some ahole because they were driving the one vehicle it was possible in. Now we want to make it possible in anything? ....Are you serious? :/
Solanox it's unfortunate that if they go through with this vehicle implementation, the in-game chatter may be filled with even more arguing. It may even have less of it since it may make people leave the game.
LE'd people are being victimized, how is that in anyway balancing the game or bettering the community?
As Mokoi said, making LE'd vehicles destroyable is the best solution at the moment.
Everything else is a complicated ruleset and difficult to implement. Just try to think about all the rules and possibilities and you will see it yourself. Mokoi already wrote down some of the possibilites in his post that would have to be considered.
In the end this example shows again that Neocron was developed primary as a PvP game and the LE was later added to protect smaller runners while they were leveling.
Stretching the LE to be a "god mode" was never intended and therefore it will be very difficult to implement this afterwards. To have open PvP and pure PvE players on one server will always create a conflict.
Regarding our situation with a small team and virtually no money for NC's development we will have to compromise.
This is no compromise it's an outright exploit against LE'd vehicles. UN-LE'd people can shoot and destroy something that cannot shoot or destroy them back. It's an exploit and it will be abused as an exploit. This is a horrible idea and it's only going to screw things up way more than they already are.
If the Devs cannot see the problem with this change then I fear we are in for more trouble than we know. I guess it's back to typical KK behaviour. sigh
William Antrim
14-03-13, 19:43
No Faid it is just something that you and the other SXR guys who post here do not like.
Get off your high horse. :) Everyone here knows your feelings on the matter. We have read umpteen posts about it. Other people have other opinions. If the people in the LE vehicles want to defend themselves they have the right, they remove the LE or lose the vehicle.
IF those people need to know how to make enough money to repair the vehicles then ALL they have to do is ask. Others here will gladly help them with ways of making back all of that money. TL 150 res cubes for example are one way of making money. Selling tronik parts with a barterer is another.
This experience is passed down from runner to runner as new people join. It makes the world a more exciting place. The wastelands should not be carebear. They should be cruel and dangerous. This change, whilst it may seem unfair at first, is a good thing. There are lots of dynamics involved in having LE and non-LE in the same rhino.
The only POSSIBLE other option to counter this is to make the vehicles invincible to all players by all players and make the damage from vehicles on players to be so minute it would be better to punch them. That is the only other fix I can see. It is probably neither realistic or possible in my opinion and so this just makes for more discussion.
However - it is going to happen because it has been discussed by the powers that be. If they decide that thats how it is then you or I have no right to say it is an exploit. It is merely a decision which you do not like. Nothing more.
RogerRamjet
14-03-13, 19:45
I'd agree with the vehicles such as the Rhino needing a boost. Once over you needed an anti-vhc launcher to seemingly dent a rhino (IIRC), and people would raid in them regularly. I'd love to see a time in the future when vehicles played a role in pvp in such a way again. Even a reveller is next to useless these days.
In all seriousness though, new runners have an exceptionally easy time in game without the LE malus. Christ if you weren't PKed on Saturn a few times a day as a low level runner you were doing well.
If the Devs cannot see the problem with this change then I fear we are in for more trouble than we know. I guess it's back to typical KK behaviour. sigh
Look, we're aware of the issue and we're considering it in the wider context of how the LE should work in general. We need some time to think that through, and it isn't being forgotten or ignored.
Chuck Norris
14-03-13, 19:53
this should at least shut up all the anti LE'ers right... now only they can effectively use vehicles giving them there advantage over LE users?
Btw Null dmg can kill LE'd players still and its not very hard for a non LE'd or LE'd player to make their dmg considered Null
..............................
@Mokoi
Just yesterday I experienced the total opposite of what you said about godmode privilege. A member of a prominent CityAdmin clan who often are known for posting on these forums attacked my Rhino. The only godmode privilege I was experiencing was the fact that he was the superior person because he could blow up my vehicle. This person who was hunting in a popular zone H_12 started shooting at my rhino. Mind you, this is my first DAY ever of rhinoing on Titan (I wanted to take advantage of double xp). I enter the zone, 2 minutes later this guy is shooting my rhino because he DIDNT want me in the zone. He felt like I was stealing his mobs. Immediately as he starts shooting, I can do nothing but ask him to stop shooting me. Sure Wastelands are a dangerous place, the imbalanced mob damage makes it a dangerous place. The fact that I have to worry about greedy people who want to hog the zone is something that seems unfair. He had a godmode privilege simply because all I could do to defend myself is using the English language, in which case, I was lucky he knew this. I brought up to his attention that there are people like him which make the community SO TOXIC.
Great, very great :P
Need a better description what paradise for grief players this vehicle patch provide ?
Even if a LE'd player could block loot ( i never experienced this in more than 7 years of playing NC^^), the new option for non-LE'd players to destroy vehicles will create a new griefers best all evening playstyle.
Reed
No Faid it is just something that you and the other SXR guys who post here do not like.
Get off your high horse. :) Everyone here knows your feelings on the matter. We have read umpteen posts about it. Other people have other opinions. If the people in the LE vehicles want to defend themselves they have the right, they remove the LE or lose the vehicle.
I am not member of SXR, and i am with Faid here - just to let you know..... :P
Who is sitting on a high horse here ?
Reed.
Chuck Norris
14-03-13, 20:29
[offtopic removed; please keep the dev section clean and stay constructive]
I agree with mokoi, if we had le'd tanks back in 'nam, shooting at our unled soldiers, we would have been screwed too
Thankyou for the reply Nidhogg.
It's just so utterly frustrating to see something make its way into the game that is so obviously wrong.
Then you have people like William and the Terrarist guys screaming that this is great now that they can grief LE'd vehicles.
Sorry I snapped a bit back there, but it sometimes feels as if all of this falls on deaf ears especially when moikoi comes out and says what he said without any regard to what we've been discussing. LE'd vehicles have no recourse when attacked by UN-LE'd people. That is the bottom line and that is the problem. They're trying to fix something by breaking something else, which will really really screw up the game.
Watch yourself there Arzon, don't make me climb down off my high horse :p
William Antrim
15-03-13, 09:06
Want to get your own back? Take out the le... It's always been this way. The only alternative is stop le'd people getting into non le'd vehicles or vice versa. Great split the community even more. No I'm comig up with alternatives. Not flaming or griefing.
CritiNator
15-03-13, 09:18
I have been grieved lot more by LE'd guys than by non LE'd.
LE rhino in middle of OP fight, blocking entrances, blocking ressing etc. This will put an end to it. Wastelands are not supposed to be as secure as P1.
What is wrong about that idea?
As LE you can't attack vehicles. But when you're a LE gunner of a vehicle, you can attack other vehicles and fight back.
Any Non-LE can attack any vehicles, is okay, too.
The LE isn't protecting you're belongings, only your body.
I truly want to thank you for this. I can't tell you how much I feel like the community is shunned from important decisions that are being implemented by the DEVs. Your posts (whether I disagree or not) are what most people want to see in the Brainport forum. It's ideally the place where community can provide feedback and the DEV team can respond. So again, thanks!
Now for the topic on hand..
I agree with you Mokoi in respect to small arms damage against a tank, which is outright the problem. The fact that a rhino(a tank) will deal ~420 damage to a firemob of 120/120 rank, gets out-done by a Creed (a rare HC cannon) ~600 damage to a firemob of 120/120 rank. In other words, if I were to go leveling in a rhino, small arms, such as the Creed will completely destroy my rhino in a matter of no time. Is that a problem? Yes. Will it be abused if the vehicle implementation takes place? Yes.
Do I feel as though this is the issue that needs to be addressed because of this implementation? -No. I feel that once again you're dropping the ball from a perspective of a new player.
Not trying to be funny here but how does what you've said above actually relate to mokoi's point about common firearms doing too much damage to vehicles. It has nothing to do with damage against mobs.
Common firearms currently do too much damage to vehicles, therefore making it far to easy to blow up a vehicle. It should take quite some time for a single person to destroy a vehicle such as a rhino using common firearms. This would give the driver of said rhino plenty of time to drive off if needed.
I have no problem with LE'd players getting exposed to some of the game dynamics that non-LE'd players do, such as the example of someone trying to chase away other people hunting in that zone. If you were non-LE'd in a vehicle you'd have a choice try to fight (and lose as you'll not be able to aim and do enough damage to a player up close) or drive off, as an LE'd character you had the option to drive away. In both senario's the outcome is currently actually the same. Drive away or lose your vehicle.
I love it lol. Run away or get your vehicle blown up, yeah that sounds fair. Le'd gunner in a rhino kills a grim, UN-LE'd tank with a creed stands over the corpse. LE'd rhino cannot loot their kill because they have to run away from the UN-LE'd guy stealing their loot because thats his only choice. Yeah that sounds so fair.
Take out your LE and fight back? While leveling noob chars? Against capped pvp ready characters? Yeah that also sounds fair.
You wont get people to take their LE's out, you'll get them pissed off because their rhino's and every other vehicle they own keeps getting blown up and they have no way to stop it (besides running away) People will just leave because of this.
Cornhusker
15-03-13, 17:11
You know, I kinda breezed through reading this so I am sorry if I am addressing this in another light and over looked someone else's idea as I see this might be a compromise.
Here is my idea: Instead of opening a new can of worms here with the endless complaints this will bring lets go another route. If we have so much issues with LE'd players blocking etc etc, make it so that in order to use a vehicle you need to be un-LE'd unless it is a non combat vehicle such as Quad etc etc. I think this is very fair idea in regards to complaints I saw as if you are going to level through rhino or other vehicles you need to be a decent level already and in which case you level extremely fast anyways.
Also, I feel that the damage a player can do to vehicles such as the rhino is a joke, if your going to do this route to vehicles regardless, you need to make them suffer FAR less damage from guns such as pistols, rifles, melee, etc etc. Why have guns such as Anti-Vehicle Launchers if they do same amount of damage or less than weapons that I mentioned up above. Maybe I am being to picky about this, but if we are going to fix the LE'd vehicles (rhino) issue then all the issues need to be addressed at once, so there is no BS about well you did this but not this and the damage normal weapons do to vehicles is complete BS as everyone knows it.
Take out your LE and fight back? While leveling noob chars? Against capped pvp ready characters? Yeah that also sounds fair.
That sounds so wrong.
So you are levelling noob chars by killing 120/120 mobs without being able to get attacked... Don't you even partially think that could be wrong in some way?
I love it lol. Run away or get your vehicle blown up, yeah that sounds fair.
Well that's how it is for an un-le'd driver in that situation as well.
As I said the bigger issue is that it is so easy for a vehicle to be destroyed by common firearms in the first place.
Le'd gunner in a rhino kills a grim, UN-LE'd tank with a creed stands over the corpse. LE'd rhino cannot loot their kill because they have to run away from the UN-LE'd guy stealing their loot because thats his only choice. Yeah that sounds so fair.
Most mobs have a larger hit box than a player does.
Take out your LE and fight back? While leveling noob chars? Against capped pvp ready characters? Yeah that also sounds fair.
Yes, we all used to level with no LE's in, why does it have to be so different now?
Also, there are always players/characters out there that will be better equiped/skilled than you at any given point whether leveling or capped.
You wont get people to take their LE's out, you'll get them pissed off because their rhino's and every other vehicle they own keeps getting blown up and they have no way to stop it (besides running away) People will just leave because of this.
Or they will appreciate this isn't some easy mode care bear game, and that you have to be aware of your surroundings at all time and allies can be/are invaluable.
Well I give up, obviously some of you want to be able to blow up LE'd vehicles and you want to force LE'd people leveling their chars to take out their LE's. It appears this is what the DEVs want as well so fuck it. I'll be the first one to say I told you so when this shit-storm hits. I thought the point of moving forward with the development of Neocron was to make the game better, guess I was mistaken.
Enjoy blowing up every LE'd vehicle you see for fun, I know I will...
Don't let them discourage you Faid, the 'hurr I hate carebears' argument is played out, and the empty can does indeed rattle the loudest..
I just wanted to add one last comparison example to all this, that I would like people to -seriously- consider for a moment before discussing or deciding further on this subject:
Scenario this decision seems at least partially based on: One of a handful of trolls parks a vehicle on a mob someone just killed, and blocks it from being looted. Final outcome? Well, there's an infinite number of every mob in the game, now isn't there? Likely some bickering will ensue, but in the end both will move on without any serious damage being done to either party beyond their egos.
Scenario that will occur after the 'solution': Now say the same troll is out in the wasteland and finds someone driving by, and decides to continue his legacy of being a jackass - they attack and probably destroy the passerby's vehicle, for reasons only someone like that can comprehend, and probably succeeds because lets face it, if they were out there looking to stir up trouble doing this, they're prepared enough to kill anyone's stuff they decide to target. Final outcome? An expensive piece of equipment is destroyed irreovocably and someone ends up losing up to or even exceeding $250,000 ingame money that they had spent on it in a matter of minutes. Not to the incredibly dangerous monsters roaming the wastelands who are indeed still QUITE A VALID THREAT TO EVEN A RHINO, but to one troll who put it upon himself to just destroy a serious investment of a fellow player 'just for the lulz.'
I hope you all take the time to let that sink in. Thank you.
William Antrim
15-03-13, 18:14
Enjoy blowing up every LE'd vehicle you see for fun, I know I will...
Get over yourself.
You have moaned in every post. Clearly people are bored of it. Come up with some suggestions to fix it instead of making another whiney post dude. You used to be so much cooler than this. These days you just dont sound like the same person.
Solanox cool avatar but if you want to be taken seriously please avoid the use of words like trolls etc and the seemingly obligatory flammable terminology.
You have moaned in every post. Clearly people are bored of it. Come up with some suggestions to fix it instead of making another whiney post dude. You used to be so much cooler than this. These days you just dont sound like the same person..
Same mobbing procedure as every year, "James". It's easy to defame other opinions as whine posts, but it's a bad style.
As Faid said:
1. Some people here (pro faction) want to blow up every vehicle. No hint/ no need for RP or story setting, simply "it's a harsh world. isn't it ?".
2. Some people want to force player to take out the LE.
3. People won't - they will count the blown up vehicles -. and leave the game.
If it is the Dev's intention to make better game mechanics - this is no good try.
You want substancial suggestions ? Nothing easier like this. How is that:
We keep nearly everything like it is actually or like it was: LE'd driven vehicles cannot attack other player/Vecs and cannot be attacked by other player /Vecs.
It is that simple. Deal the non-ROC matching behaviour like blocking locations/ loot otherwise/ more intelligent.
Reed
Same mobbing procedure as every year, "James". It's easy to defame other opinions as whine posts, but it's a bad style.
As Faid said:
1. Some people here (pro faction) want to blow up every vehicle. No hint/ no need for RP or story setting, simply "it's a harsh world. isn't it ?".
2. Some people want to force player to take out the LE.
3. People won't - they will count the blown up vehicles -. and leave the game.
If it is the Dev's intention to make better game mechanics - this is no good try.
You want substancial suggestions ? Nothing easier like this. How is that:
We keep nearly everything like it is actually or like it was: LE'd driven vehicles cannot attack other player/Vecs and cannot be attacked by other player /Vecs.
It is that simple. Deal the non-ROC matching behaviour like blocking locations/ loot otherwise/ more intelligent.
Reed
For instance:
Runners have the option to spawn either an LEd or non LEd version of a vehicle, regardless of their own status. Only LEd players
can get inside LEd vehicles, and LEd vehicles can be clipped through at will (so no blocking). Anyone can get inside a non LE vehicle, but it will still be destroy-able (even if an LEd player owns it, is riding in it, or driving) and LEd players may not gun it.
This would seem like a fix to all of the vehicle abuse problems without opening up people to griefing.
Lucas Kell
15-03-13, 21:28
Well that's how it is for an un-le'd driver in that situation as well.
As I said the bigger issue is that it is so easy for a vehicle to be destroyed by common firearms in the first place.
It's not the same at all. An Un-LEd player can simply shoot the LE player standing on the corpse.
Most mobs have a larger hit box than a player does.
It's not about hitbox sizes. A Player could shoot the thino to death before it can loot and get away.
Yes, we all used to level with no LE's in, why does it have to be so different now?
Also, there are always players/characters out there that will be better equiped/skilled than you at any given point whether leveling or capped.
It's different now, because now a huge % of the population are old players who have done everything and are happy running around ganking. Combine that with the fact that levelling areas are so condensed now that you will rarely be alone in one of them, someone will start abusing people with this
Or they will appreciate this isn't some easy mode care bear game, and that you have to be aware of your surroundings at all time and allies can be/are invaluable.
It's more likely they will simply leave, especially when anyone wanting to level (kind the idea of the game) gets repeatedly ganked by "pr0s" that already have their capped characters and are running around bored.
The term carebears gets thrown around way too much nowadays. It's utterly ludicrous, and most people that use it are just as bad as people that get called it just on the opposite end of the scale. People want to play a game to have fun. Most of the fun is endgame. Most people do not have 90% of their time free to play, and thus a need for protecting people until they are into the fun portion of the game exists. This is the LE. It's not supposed to be a mechanic by which players play forever, it's supposed to be there to stop jackasses getting easy kills through boredom at the expense of server population. There is a lower limit. They will not continue running this game if noone is playing it.
Honestly I'm not going to argue about this change here. I'm going to simply destroy every vehicle I see once this change is deployed.
It's not the same at all. An Un-LEd player can simply shoot the LE player standing on the corpse.
Wait, what? Non-Le'd players can't shoot LE'd players. Please clarify.
Honestly I'm not going to argue about this change here. I'm going to simply destroy every vehicle I see once this change is deployed.
Y'know what? Faid said this too, and I can't respect saying "Well I think it's a problem and *even if it turns out to not be* I will make it one." That's like saying "I'm going to protest gun laws by shooting up a schoolyard." it's protest via terrorism and it's bad form.
So, griefers are assholes and you don't want griefers on your server? So you protest rule changes by griefing? Um, what? Explain that again. Non-Le'd players don't have to be pricks and rules that allow for bad behavior don't equate to bad behavior. That's conflation.
I also think it's important to consider that these aren't "mounts" this is not WoW, the rules can be different. Stop comparing this game to other, more recent western mmos. The very potential of Neocron is its divergence from that paradigm and adherence to the 'virtual world' ideal.
Finally, I'd like to close with my usual notation that there was a time when the LE didn't work in the wasteland *at all* let alone as extended to your vehicle. Many, many (like most) PvE/PvP mmos have "0 security" or "lawless" areas where players have no expectation of safety. This was clearly the intention for the Wasteland and Outzone areas in this game, and LE protection for players and vehicles didn't come until later, corrupting that ideal.
Lucas Kell
15-03-13, 23:57
Wait, what? Non-Le'd players can't shoot LE'd players. Please clarify.
Well if an LE player sits on a mob with a Rhino, the un-LE player will simply be able to shoot him... So yes, a Non-LE player will be able to shoot an LE player.
Obviously out of a rhino the un-LE can just drive over and loot.
Y'know what? Faid said this too, and I can't respect saying "Well I think it's a problem and *even if it turns out to not be* I will make it one." That's like saying "I'm going to protest gun laws by shooting up a schoolyard." it's protest via terrorism and it's bad form.
So, griefers are assholes and you don't want griefers on your server? So you protest rule changes by griefing? Um, what? Explain that again. Non-Le'd players don't have to be pricks and rules that allow for bad behavior don't equate to bad behavior. That's conflation.
The point here is that things said on this forum don't amount to much. The only thing that seems to amount to anything is when people in game start complaining a lot. So the only method of arguing against this is through taking action to cause those complaints.
I also think it's important to consider that these aren't "mounts" this is not WoW, the rules can be different. Stop comparing this game to other, more recent western mmos. The very potential of Neocron is its divergence from that paradigm and adherence to the 'virtual world' ideal.
Noones comparing these to mounts. Just if you are going to let LE players get griefed without being able to fight back, you should simply remove the ability for LE players to drive vehicles. The way this is being put in simply opens a path to grief with no ability to fight back. And with how badly the features of this game are documented, new players wont understand this can happen until they have already lost a vehicle.
Finally, I'd like to close with my usual notation that there was a time when the LE didn't work in the wasteland *at all* let alone as extended to your vehicle. Many, many (like most) PvE/PvP mmos have "0 security" or "lawless" areas where players have no expectation of safety. This was clearly the intention for the Wasteland and Outzone areas in this game, and LE protection for players and vehicles didn't come until later, corrupting that ideal.
That's great, but the game isn't the same as it used to be. Back then, the population was nicely mixed. Now the population has a high level of experienced players with nothing better to do than grief.
What I meant by mounts was "achieve them once, have them forever." They decay, like everything else in this game world.
And I honestly get what the fear is, I'd even be OK with restricting vehicles to non-LE'd players, but I think that's unnecessary overkill, some peeps are still going to be willing to risk it I guarantee.
To me, if it's clearly messaged that "all vehicles are subject to player attack" then it seems perfectly fair doesn't it? No privilege is being given either way, the only issue here is that a runner needs to be exposed to attack (i.e. pull an LE) if they want to attack another, and if all vehicles are subject to attack, that means runners will have more opportunities to want to shoot at another runner (i.e. they feel that their vehicle is threatened.)
It's not really as condescending as it sounds to say "you can leave, or pull the LE" because, to me, those with LE's in have chosen to limit their options in order to be protected from arbitrary PvP. I think it supports the ideal Neocron environment perfectly.
Assimilator
16-03-13, 01:57
Why not do a brainport discussion on modifying loot rights if the LE VHC sitting on top of a corpse is the issue? Is it hard to code proper loot rights for whoever tags the mob first vs. who does the most damage? Don't other MMOs do this?
If loot rights wasn't an issue then you could propose the LE vs. Non-LEd VHC version or perhaps if the driver is LE everyone in the VHC becomes LE?
RogerRamjet
16-03-13, 02:55
Why not put a temporary vendor in place with reduced prices rhinos or make them cheaper to construct temporarily until a better alternative is put in place?
As it stands an LEd vehicle being able to destroy an un-LEd is ridiculous, and if we're talking about griefing it'd be perfectly plausible for that to happen now LE->non-LE (as has happened multiple times to myself). Since Titan i'd say i've seen the game mechanics abused in such a way by more people with LEs in than not, and once again it's probably a tiny proportion of the community doing it but enough that the devs have taken note.
Am I correct in believing as long as the driver is LEd the vehicle cant be destroyed also? Surely this means you can have non-LEd running around at OPs etc, jumping in to an LEd rhino when it's getting rough and driving off merrily into the sunset? Being able to enter a vehicle and becoming untouchable doesn't sound fair either.
Sounds like people should join clans and make friends for protection.
Sounds like people should join clans and make friends for protection.
A clan can't protect you from having your vehicle griefed. What are people going to do, never go anywhere without a capped escort? At best a clan can retaliate on your behalf.... but this works much better in a ganking scenario than a griefing one where someone is just going to blow up your stuff and run off.
This is no compromise it's an outright exploit against LE'd vehicles. UN-LE'd people can shoot and destroy something that cannot shoot or destroy them back. It's an exploit and it will be abused as an exploit. This is a horrible idea and it's only going to screw things up way more than they already are.
If the Devs cannot see the problem with this change then I fear we are in for more trouble than we know. I guess it's back to typical KK behaviour. sigh
Wastelands = Dangerous place non Le'd players can be killed by other players non Le'd cant so wheres the danger for Le'd players apart from mobs???? If a non le'd person is griefing in a zone they can be killed them as you farm but you cant do that to someone with an LE so they should have some sort of downside end of LE'd players should not have a complete shield around them at all times.
Plus most tanks rolling about are all double logged fools, and sorry to say but its probably easier to farm with a normal car and a weapon since my Rav and Creed both out dmg a rhino... plus the fact Le'd players consistantly block loot on Doomreapers Grim chasers and Grim percy's, I have many a screenshot as I have had this done to me alot! 2 times yesterday and attempted 3 other times infact.
If you want to solve the issue with expensive vehicles simply give a respawn count depending on the cost of the vehicles IE bike has max 3 spawns a tank has max 6 spawns ie it can be repaired at depo after being destroyed 5 times the 6th time it will be lost completely.
William Antrim
16-03-13, 15:58
Make it cost half the original key price to have a destroyed vehicle recovered.
Make it cost half the original key price to have a destroyed vehicle recovered.
This is about as far from addressing this issue as can be.
...........
Plus most tanks rolling about are all double logged fools, and sorry to say but its probably easier to farm with a normal car and a weapon since my Rav and Creed both out dmg a rhino...
It is not foolish to level barter, resser, conster, driver, APUs, PPUs easy in DEX/INT/ with double logging as driver/repairer same time as you can collect rare parts. What's wrong with this?
This would be destroyed as an excellent an funny game option to avoid boring Dex/Int levelling.
Another fail patch which only prolongs the boring levelling of this char types.
Often simple changes make things more worse in a complex environment, therefore this "simple" patches should be overthought more.
Reed
Still waiting on the official statement which will probably never come. [edit]
This is starting to remind me of the drone nerf discussions a few months ago.
Lucas Kell
17-03-13, 12:43
Also, this still sidesteps an issue. Duel logged, LE player in drive seat with 69 VHC and everything else in rep. Non LE player in gunner seat. If attacked, the LE player jumps out snd starts repairing like mad, the Gunner can still continue to fire.
A Non-LE team can't do this as the gunner would simply shoot the repairing driver.
LE players and non-LE players shouldn't be allowed to enter the same vehicle. That's the majority of the issues that this change resolves, still resolved.
Also, this still sidesteps an issue. Duel logged, LE player in drive seat with 69 VHC and everything else in rep. Non LE player in gunner seat. If attacked, the LE player jumps out snd starts repairing like mad, the Gunner can still continue to fire.
A Non-LE team can't do this as the gunner would simply shoot the repairing driver.
LE players and non-LE players shouldn't be allowed to enter the same vehicle. That's the majority of the issues that this change resolves, still resolved.
Your proposed change will also not prevent a LE from repping a Rhino while a non LE is shooting.
This example shows clearly that there never can be a perfect environment for LE and PvP together.
We will always have to compromise.
Your suggested change will separate the players. The opposite is the goal and making LEs buffable by non-LEs shows this (in the patch).
There will still be LE'd people who will use a Rhino even if it can be attacked now. People will learn to cope with it.
Everybody will learn to survive in the dangeous wastelands before the gates of the city.
Lucas Kell
17-03-13, 15:17
Well LE players shouldn't be able to rep a non-LE vehicle either then :D
And in my opinion we shouldn't be trying to help LE and non-LE work together. I don't think the LE is doing very well as so many end-gamers use it. I think we should be separating LE users out even more, to encourage people to move off of the LE.
With this change this just opens up grief though. I'd be much happier if LE users simply couldn't use vehicles. The current change is just going to cause new players who are unaware they are unsafe to spend a lot of money on a vehicle only to get blown up by a bored non-LE user. it wouldn't even need to be a big character, a /30 can rip through a lot of vehicles fairly quickly.
All this change does is move the grief from affecting non-LE users to affecting LE users.
Well LE players shouldn't be able to rep a non-LE vehicle either then :D
And in my opinion we shouldn't be trying to help LE and non-LE work together. I don't think the LE is doing very well as so many end-gamers use it. I think we should be separating LE users out even more, to encourage people to move off of the LE.
With this change this just opens up grief though. I'd be much happier if LE users simply couldn't use vehicles. The current change is just going to cause new players who are unaware they are unsafe to spend a lot of money on a vehicle only to get blown up by a bored non-LE user. it wouldn't even need to be a big character, a /30 can rip through a lot of vehicles fairly quickly.
All this change does is move the grief from affecting non-LE users to affecting LE users.
Very nice idea: because LE player with vehicles could be griefed all the time we simply took away the vec option from them :P
Better way is as described: no LE/ Un-LE mix in vehicles is allowed, then make the rules clear and LE's cannot attack/ cannot be attacked even with vehicles.
Reed
Doesnt solve LEd parking on dead mobs.
Look, we're aware of the issue and we're considering it in the wider context of how the LE should work in general. We need some time to think that through, and it isn't being forgotten or ignored.
Any other absolute gems of ideas we can expect implemented that hasn't been thought through?
It's all part of the same issue as I see it. We've been told to wait for numerous things (balancing springs to mind) because they tie in to more/bigger aspects of the game and we've been quite accepting of that. Why couldn't this wait as well? I greatly appreciate all the work that is being done by the team, but in future, if you could think things through first, that'd be great!
Lucas Kell
17-03-13, 21:44
Doesnt solve LEd parking on dead mobs.
Except this change just means that unLEd can now park on dead mobs, and just shot any LE vehicles that comes nearby.
It's not a fix if you are just changing the target of the problem.
Actually this effectively solves the "parked on mobs" issue. Either side can now shoot your vehicle if you use the vehicle in a non-intended way to cause others trouble (by parking on a mob so they cannot loot it.) Seems to me that "all vehicles are subject to damage by other players." solves that neatly.
The only argument I could see for this being a "bad change" comes from a position where the player believes that they are intended to be able to play the game completely PvE without ever interacting with other players in a PvP mode. I believe a core design premise of this game is a lack of safety and an air of tension in the wild places, and as such, this change seems to support that intent.
As an aside, without a Dev's call on whether or not Neocron is intended to be played "alone/together" (like WoW/CoH/EQ etc.) or whether Neocron is intended to be a community game that cannot be soloed safely in it's entirety, it's hard to know where the focus should be with regard to changes.
Actually this effectively solves the "parked on mobs" issue. Either side can now shoot your vehicle if you use the vehicle in a non-intended way to cause others trouble (by parking on a mob so they cannot loot it.) Seems to me that "all vehicles are subject to damage by other players." solves that neatly.
The only argument I could see for this being a "bad change" comes from a position where the player believes that they are intended to be able to play the game completely PvE without ever interacting with other players in a PvP mode. I believe a core design premise of this game is a lack of safety and an air of tension in the wild places, and as such, this change seems to support that intent.
As an aside, without a Dev's call on whether or not Neocron is intended to be played "alone/together" (like WoW/CoH/EQ etc.) or whether Neocron is intended to be a community game that cannot be soloed safely in it's entirety, it's hard to know where the focus should be with regard to changes.
I don't know hwo told you that players which play a while (!!) / or for long time their chars do play the game solo/ alone or without interacting with other players? This is an error. NC is intended to have a LE-option, this is part of the game, too.
The only difference is that they take the option to avoid beeing ganked by other players, especially by those "experts" which are going WOCed with all-mc5 to kill everything which is not on the tree count to 3 :p
Reed
Actually this effectively solves the "parked on mobs" issue. Either side can now shoot your vehicle if you use the vehicle in a non-intended way to cause others trouble (by parking on a mob so they cannot loot it.) Seems to me that "all vehicles are subject to damage by other players." solves that neatly.
Either side cannot shoot your vehicle, only the UN-LE'd side can shoot your vehicle. This is what makes the change unfair. I'd agree that if both sides could shoot any vehicle regardless of LE staus it would at least be fair. But only the one side gets to shoot vehicles in this patch, LE'd people get screwed hard.
Wait, really?
I misunderstood. I thought that *right now* on live, vehicles with LE'd owners could not be destroyed, but those with Non-LE'd owners could, and that this would change that so that all vehicles were fair game regardless.
If that's not how it is being implemented then I'm clearly confused. I'm not on Vedeena though, I just read the forums.
Either side cannot shoot your vehicle, only the UN-LE'd side can shoot your vehicle. This is what makes the change unfair. I'd agree that if both sides could shoot any vehicle regardless of LE staus it would at least be fair. But only the one side gets to shoot vehicles in this patch, LE'd people get screwed hard.
Sorry Faid, but that would just be silly..
If LE's could shoot unLE'd vehicles, we would end up with unLE'd people being defenceless (I am here speaking of a LE'd who is not in a vechicle btw)..
Assimilator
18-03-13, 10:33
Doesnt solve LEd parking on dead mobs.
So does this mean we should be exploring a loots rights problem instead of a LE/unLE VHC problem? Root cause analysis!
OK this is why we need an official explanation of what is happening with vehicles in this patch. People are very confused as to what is actually happening to LE'd vehicles. They don't realise that UN-LE'd people will be able to destroy any LE'd vehicle whithout any way for the LE'd vehicle to defend itself. Almost everyone I tell about this can't believe that the devs would actually do it and they think there must be some mistake. And this is just for the few dozen people on these forums, the majority of the actual in game players have no idea what-so-ever. Anyway still waiting on the explanation of why the devs think this is a good idea, it's only been a few weeks since they said they would try to explain their decision...
And to clear things up a little more for those that dont/haven't played for years, right now any combat vehicle regardless of le can blow up a vehicle. The change will make this so ONLY UN-LE'D can damage ANY VEHICLE. As it is on retail right now is a bug that was never intended. Patch 181/182 is the bandaid.
RogerRamjet
18-03-13, 17:20
Almost everyone I tell about this can't believe that the devs would actually do it and they think there must be some mistake. And this is just for the few dozen people on these forums, the majority of the actual in game players have no idea what-so-ever.
As far as I'm concerned I'm playing a game I love for free, and as it stands all the devs are currently asking for is feedback and input to make this game better.
Regardless of who you tell or their feelings on it, it's irrelevant because they're not here expressing their opinion. So instead of whinging to your mates or demanding answers from the devs why don't you ask your friends why they're not contributing to the future of this game, whether it's through laziness or ignorance.
If the game take directions they don't like and they weren't here to get their point across they have no recourse.
Right Roger that makes perfect sense, the devs should cater to the tiny minority that make up forum posters. Never mind the actual population, they don't matter anyway right? Neocron was so great when we had 1 - 2 % population for years. If you think that my trying to address a huge problem with this patch is just me "whinging" then there's no point to any of this. The people I've told about this patch arent my friends they are the general population of the game. And if you don't think that they are directly contributing to the future of Neocron simply by playing the game then you are mistaken.
Faid, I also doesn't think the new VHC rules are a problem and I think you're just whinning.
This ruleset fixes more than it breaks.
Serves you people right for using an LEd chars and VHC to grief others.
I hope this thread gets closed, we've been around the issue 2-3 times already.
Not trying to be funny here but how does what you've said above actually relate to mokoi's point about common firearms doing too much damage to vehicles. It has nothing to do with damage against mobs.
(Refer to Page 2 in this thread)
Didn't take any offense so no problemo. I was simply stating that if
Logic A: Weapon damage against mobs in which rare weapon dmg > vehicle damage,
then it should be constant with
Logic B: Weapon damage against vehicle in which rare weapon dmg > vehicle damage;; = true.
I hopes you can follow this!
So does this mean we should be exploring a loots rights problem instead of a LE/unLE VHC problem? Root cause analysis!
I agree with you Assimilator, I think we should be exploring different ways to loot mobs since that seems to be the argument that most Un-LE'd people are taking. They can't get to their mobs which they killed because an LE'd person sits their Rhino on the mob. Maybe we should look into a way to implement a sort of "/loot" command that is common throughout MMORPGs.
EDIT:
This would be destroyed as an excellent an funny game option to avoid boring Dex/Int levelling.
Another fail patch which only prolongs the boring levelling of this char types.
Often simple changes make things more worse in a complex environment, therefore this "simple" patches should be overthought more.
Reed
I agree 110% with this.
RogerRamjet
18-03-13, 19:26
Right Roger that makes perfect sense, the devs should cater to the tiny minority that make up forum posters. Never mind the actual population, they don't matter anyway right? Neocron was so great when we had 1 - 2 % population for years. If you think that my trying to address a huge problem with this patch is just me "whinging" then there's no point to any of this. The people I've told about this patch arent my friends they are the general population of the game. And if you don't think that they are directly contributing to the future of Neocron simply by playing the game then you are mistaken.
Of course they shouldn't cater to a tiny minority, but if they are the only people being vocal and expressing their opinions, which the devs have asked the community to do, then that's exactly what will happen! Forget what they do in game, they need to be on here giving their input. They have the chance to be more than numbers on a server.
Of course they shouldn't cater to a tiny minority, but if they are the only people being vocal and expressing their opinions, which the devs have asked the community to do, then that's exactly what will happen! Forget what they do in game, they need to be on here giving their input. They have the chance to be more than numbers on a server.
Getting a little off topic with this one... fine, regardless of the fact that it would be better if everyone who played posted, the fact of the matter is this is not the case. If devs only listen to the (minority of) players on the forums when making changes, they're going to drive off much of the population. Obviously some issues are hard to solve, in complex situations forum feedback can be invaluable. This is not one of those times, a change which obviously opens up a segment of the population to griefing (in this case the new player segment of all things!) is obviously not in the best interest of the game.
It's funny that people on here accuse Faid of whining. What does he have to lose? He already has multiple capped chars, a clan full of support behind him in the event someone tries to grief him, and huge amount of resources at his disposal should his property be destroyed. It's hard for me to think of anyone that would be directly hurt less than him by these changes.
The reason Faid (and others including myself) are so upset, is because this change will alienate new players. Those without caped chars, without the ability to call in a dozen friends ready to fight, and without access to millions of nc. Does this description ring a bell to anyone? It's exactly the demographic least likely to post in these forums.
Of all the problems neocron has, let's not have it fail to the self cannibalization of its population by the vocal, experienced, minority.
The reason Faid (and others including myself) are so upset, is because this change will alienate new players. Those without caped chars, without the ability to call in a dozen friends ready to fight, and without access to millions of nc. Does this description ring a bell to anyone? It's exactly the demographic least likely to post in these forums.
Of all the problems neocron has, let's not have it fail to the self cannibalization of its population by the vocal, experienced, minority.
YES! I just wish people who accuse Faid of whining would get this through their thick heads.
Faid, I also doesn't think the new VHC rules are a problem and I think you're just whinning.
This ruleset fixes more than it breaks.
Serves you people right for using an LEd chars and VHC to grief others.
I hope this thread gets closed, we've been around the issue 2-3 times already.
I don't even Rhino, I have multiple capped un-le'd characters. The only Le'd people I have are tradeskillers who don't need to level anymore. This vehicle change doesn't effect me in the least. It effects the 75% of the server that are currently LE'd and it will effect them negatively. It is unfair, and unlike you and some others, I'm concerned with what is good for the game as a whole, not with how it effects me.
There is another point that nobody discussed about before.
The LE-players that use drones. In the vehicle update for LE-players is the following sentense highlighted.
"The law enforcer only protects the player and NOT his belongings.
So now lets try to think another step forward. Vehicles count to belongings and how about the drones? The drones represents a remote controlled gun that if the drone get destroyed the player is still alive. For me it's a kind of properties too.
If vehicles will be attackable when a LE-player is in the vehicle I think the drones should be attackable too. At the moment there are a lot of LE-players with drones who pull the victims to a non-LE or LE-player and drop the drone if the victims are in range. After this the victims automatically attack the other players and kill them. That's really a kidding way to abuse players who want to level or farm rare parts in the mc5.
So all in all I think the drones should be attackable too.
Yes to the drones idea and armour counts as belongings too so we should be able to shoot a LE'd runner and damage his armour but not his health, this way we can shoot their armour down to 0%. Oh and gloves count too, they aren't really implants since you wear them, they aren't inside your body, we should be able to shoot a LE'd monk's CAG gloves down to 0 condition so they can't use their spells anymore.
I also believe LE'd runners should drop belts when they die, same as everyone else. It's a contradiction to say the LE doesn't protect belongings and yet when you die, you don't drop a belt, clearly it is protecting your belongings here.
It's a harsh world! Don't like it? Find a zone with no other runners or take out your LE.
Assimilator
19-03-13, 02:47
It's a harsh world! Don't like it? Find a zone with no other runners or take out your LE.
It's really hard to sell the game to potential players with statements like that. This isn't EvE with its big bag of tricks and the sandbox to entice players to join. We're trying to prevent potential griefing tactics that might alienate the new player base.
This isn't EvE with its big bag of tricks and the sandbox to entice players to join.
Not flaming at all, but isn't this a sandbox with a fairly unique bag of tricks?" (Vehicles, hacking, droning, etc.)
I think so; Admittedly telling people to shove it is a tough sell for those that don't like PvP, but if PvP is an intended bit of game (lke it is in Eve) then it behooves the Devs and playerbase both to just say so.
Assimilator
19-03-13, 09:02
Not flaming at all, but isn't this a sandbox with a fairly unique bag of tricks?" (Vehicles, hacking, droning, etc.)
No offense taken and a fair point, but due to the age of the game and lack of "modern conveniences" compared to other MMOs we just don't have as big of a mass appeal than most MMOs. Why risk alienating ourselves even more?
Setting and atmosphere aside, the end game OP fight PVP is definitely where I get the most out of NC (for me). Unfortunately for new players there's quite the hill to climb to reach that point... So why introduce a rule set that has potential to be used for griefing? I just think there's a better solution out there both in the short term and as a permanent solution.
Some players have said to just remove the LEs if they want a way to defend themselves. I think this rule set hurts the low to mid level players the most. Do you really think they'd remove the LE to defend themselves? How exactly does a mid level player defend themselves from a capped player?
Again, if LE players camping dead mobs is an issue look at changing the loot rights. If an unLE gunner is hurting others and is protected by a sitting in a LE vehicle look at changing the LE status of the users in the vehicle / not letting unLEs in.
Having enough money for a Rhino and for repair nanites means you are not a complete newb to the game anymore, in my opinion.
A Rhino can cost you up to 300k, and with 100 packs of nanites you've spent ca. 500k. This is a lot of money for a new player, believe me. I've been helping new playeres ever since and they even cannot afford to buy a new weapon at the vendor nor do they have the money to get them built. So if we really want to do something for the newbs it's helping them out with equipment in the start instead of changing rulesets that many of them don't care about until much later.
I reckon that if you've gotten that far in game you should be prepared for some of the dangers of the Wastelands. I think People will learn to cope with it especially when they are told about it by other players.
However, because there seems to be so much concern about the vehicle ruleset maybe the impact on the LE'd player can be lowered by making Rhinos for LE drivers always respawnable at the ASG, like the quad.
Of course one issue of this will be that LE players will very rarely need to buy a Rhino again, but this is the case anyhow if the vehicles cannot be attacked and destroyed by other players.
Some players have said to just remove the LEs if they want a way to defend themselves. I think this rule set hurts the low to mid level players the most. Do you really think they'd remove the LE to defend themselves? How exactly does a mid level player defend themselves from a capped player?
Yes ... but Low-Mid leveled players should not go rhinoing and kill high leveled mobs should they?
I mean I can somehow understand that the newbie who just bought a hovertech won't find it that funny if his new vehicle gets shot down. But that is another thing. Vehicles should have better armor and maybe more hitpoints.
Maybe the patch should not be released with an according vehicle power change. But that is up to the devs. Fixing the LE exploits has a higher priority maybe.
Yes ... but Low-Mid leveled players should not go rhinoing and kill high leveled mobs should they?
I mean I can somehow understand that the newbie who just bought a hovertech won't find it that funny if his new vehicle gets shot down. But that is another thing. Vehicles should have better armor and maybe more hitpoints.
Maybe the patch should not be released with an according vehicle power change. But that is up to the devs. Fixing the LE exploits has a higher priority maybe.
There were some very good threads about changes that should be made to vehicles in order to encourage people to use them not that long ago.
Lowering requirements,
Allowing you to salvage parts from a blown up vehicle which contributes >50% of the parts to making a new one,
Increasing armor and hit points of vehicles,
Improving the handling of some vehicles
Adjusting damage of attack vehicles making others viable again
If the above changes were made to vehicles then there would be viable alternatives to just using a Rhino.
You can't "fix LE'd exploits" by creating UN-LE'd exploits, which is what this vehicle change does.
All the Dev's have to do is change the loot rights rules. A mob can only be looted by the person or the team that killed it. This solves the LE'd rhino parking on our loot problem.
Make rhino's susceptible to damage if any of the occupants are UN-LE'd, whether it be the gunner, driver, or passengers. This solves the LE'd driver with UN-LE'd gunner problem. If the UN-LE'd gunner hops out kill him, if he doesn't hop out kill the rhino then kill him.
Make rhino's susceptible to damage in OP zones regardless of LE status of the occupants. This solves the rhino's blocking UG's at op fights problem.
All of these solutions would fix the current problems regarding LE's and vehicles without creating even more problems down the road. This would be a decent way of going about things.
All the Dev's have to do is change the loot rights rules. A mob can only be looted by the person or the team that killed it. This solves the LE'd rhino parking on our loot problem.
Bad idea, that makes the problem worse the rhino can just sit there until the mob despawns. That idea also removes the ability for other players to loot unwanted mobs.
Bad idea, that makes the problem worse the rhino can just sit there until the mob despawns. That idea also removes the ability for other players to loot unwanted mobs.
OK then change the hit box of the mobs so rhino's cant park on them.
Bad idea, that makes the problem worse the rhino can just sit there until the mob despawns. That idea also removes the ability for other players to loot unwanted mobs.
Or even more easily make LEd vehicles clipable.
Or even more easily make LEd vehicles clipable.
Or even more easily make LEd vehicles damagable !
wait... that would be too easy...
I will close this thread for the time being so we don't go driving in circles.
This is not putting an end to this topic - be assured that this discussion will be reopened in context with the aforementioned official statement.
Please see the latest Test Server Patch Notes (http://forum.neocron-game.com/showthread.php?148119-T-184-PTS-Patch-Notes) for our statement regarding this topic, as promised.
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