View Full Version : TL 150 Research Missions
Lucas Kell
28-02-13, 14:37
I hate to bring it up, cos it's a brilliant way of making cash, but TL 150 research missions really break the economy. Researchers can sell the cubes for 6k a piece and still turn a profit, and the mission runnners earn 10k per cube. This means its pretty easy to turn a few hundred thousand NC into a few million in a very short space of time.
Now I understand that missions still need to be around for all trades and that they need to pay fairly, but to me this just means huge amounts of cash is injected into the economy from the ether without much effort.
My suggestion to correct this is 2 actions. These could also be applied to other missions.
1. Reward for the mission is brought down a small amount to adjust for the realistic price of production. 6-7k per cube (18k - 21k per mission) should be enough reward so researchers can make money doing missions with their profession but reduce the amount of bulk cube sales.
2. The mission should generate a number of different varieties of BP requirement. So instead of its all being just a single type of v-hard-3 cube, after accepting the mission, you speak to the first guy, and he give you one of a random selection of cubes. This should be at least 5-10 varieties of mission item. This will prevent someone being able to buy a single stack knowing that they have everything they need for any TL150 Res mission for that faction.
Like I say, I hate to bring this up as its an easy way to make money which is great for an individual, but the economy of the game needs to be made more stable, and injection of funds of this degree is not a way to maintain this.
William Antrim
28-02-13, 15:14
I do not like this idea.
The system is not broken, therefore there is no need to fix it. This is just change for the sake of it. There are other more important issues. Insert any other stock phrase to say why.
Sorry but there are a few issues with missions as it is, however I would rather these missions not get taken away. They are a way for capped players to start a new char without the pain of starting again in the same way as the original. Wow did a similar thing with heirlooms for players to gain +10% xp per piece and stuff.
At least with the cubes as is you can get to level /25 ish without too many issues and fairly quickly. IMO this mechanic should stay as it is.
If you want to remove the cash bonus due to cash sinks in game yeah fair play this might be a good idea but with all of the debate in the thread from Strife about rewards vs risk etc pure tradeskillers have NO other real form of making money. Bear in mind to be a good researcher you cant level solo (at best you can rhino with a friend) so taking away their one ability to make a good sized amount of money (and it requires a lot of tedious work) then how are you going to replace that income?
Lucas Kell
28-02-13, 15:53
I do not like this idea.
The system is not broken, therefore there is no need to fix it. This is just change for the sake of it. There are other more important issues. Insert any other stock phrase to say why.
Sorry but there are a few issues with missions as it is, however I would rather these missions not get taken away. They are a way for capped players to start a new char without the pain of starting again in the same way as the original. Wow did a similar thing with heirlooms for players to gain +10% xp per piece and stuff.
At least with the cubes as is you can get to level /25 ish without too many issues and fairly quickly. IMO this mechanic should stay as it is.
If you want to remove the cash bonus due to cash sinks in game yeah fair play this might be a good idea but with all of the debate in the thread from Strife about rewards vs risk etc pure tradeskillers have NO other real form of making money. Bear in mind to be a good researcher you cant level solo (at best you can rhino with a friend) so taking away their one ability to make a good sized amount of money (and it requires a lot of tedious work) then how are you going to replace that income?
Well the first part there just emphasises the problem. "you can get to level /25 ish without too many issues and fairly quickly". This takes away any reason for having early levels. We may as well just roll a character that starts at /25. If you have a combat char, you should level through combat, etc, not just through handing in generic mission cubes..
I'm not saying take this away from researchers to level. I'm saying stop it being such an easy mission for everyone else to just buy from a researcher and hand it. Researchers can still take the mission, do the research and hand it in without an issue. Just a HC tank (for example) can't.
We are not talking about the same thing as the 10% xp bonus here. We a re talking about a way for any character to simply skip levels, and they don't even have to pay for it. They actually make money doing it. In wow, it didn't skip levels, it simply sped it up, and heirlooms cost the player a considerable amount of cash and tokens which were not returned like the money spent on Res cubes is. Getting a special type of armor that boosts xp gains would be the equivalent here.
Construction missions aren't farmed in the same way cos its not as easy to generate a stockpile of the hand ins and research should be more like this. It shouldn't be a simple task to just generate a few stacks of hand ins, then give them to a character you want to half cap in a day.
William Antrim
28-02-13, 15:57
It speeds up levelling and therefore it is comparable. I still do not like the idea.
Lucas Kell
28-02-13, 16:04
It speeds up levelling and therefore it is comparable. I still do not like the idea.
It doesn't really speed up levelling to the same degree though. Wow is 10% this is like 3000%. It also pays you to speed up your levelling, where in wow you pay to have your levelling sped up. It's comparable yes, but that comparison shows they are not even remotely similar in nature.
William Antrim
28-02-13, 16:12
It doesn't really speed up levelling to the same degree though. Wow is 10% this is like 3000%. It also pays you to speed up your levelling, where in wow you pay to have your levelling sped up. It's comparable yes, but that comparison shows they are not even remotely similar in nature.
Huh? sorry it doesnt speed it up to the same degree? this is just pedantic because I do not like your idea. Sorry bud but I do not understand your last line at all. It is comparable so that shows theyre not similar..... So you are saying its similar but by being similar you can see that its completely different?
Anyway. I stand by my original assessment.
I disagree with the main idea here.
TL 150s are good below 30 base mainskill, past that point, one notices that indeed he will level faster with a combat skill.
As far as money goes, they pay good but require 225+ ressearch skill to be made. Basically a pure resser, and making a pure resser is a LOT of time investment.
This system isn't broken nor unfair.
Lucas Kell
28-02-13, 16:35
Huh? sorry it doesnt speed it up to the same degree? this is just pedantic because I do not like your idea. Sorry bud but I do not understand your last line at all. It is comparable so that shows theyre not similar..... So you are saying its similar but by being similar you can see that its completely different?
Anyway. I stand by my original assessment.
No, there is nothing pedantic about it...
You surely can see the difference here:
WOW - You gain a 10% boost at a cost of at least a couple of thousand gold.
NC - You gain a huge boost, allowing you to level in a day what you used to take 3-5 days to do, and get paid to do it.
This are simply not the same thing. Surely you can see this? If you had to pay 10m NC that you never got back as mission rewards, this would be closer to the same thing.
Lets not also forget that with the ability for people to use illegitimate means to obtain blueprints (specifically being vague here to comply with rules) that these missions are exploitable.
I disagree with the main idea here.
TL 150s are good below 30 base mainskill, past that point, one notices that indeed he will level faster with a combat skill.
As far as money goes, they pay good but require 225+ ressearch skill to be made. Basically a pure resser, and making a pure resser is a LOT of time investment.
This system isn't broken nor unfair.
Again though, this eliminates the need for anything for <lvl 25s to do. We may as well start at /25 by default.
And also again I'm not saying that pure ressers should be affected. It's everyone that isn't a resser levelling of the back of a clearly unbalanced system. This is even more apparent when you look at what rewards are given for the other "Very Hard" missions that require more time to complete.
I agree with William and Kame on this..
They Works the way they should.
The only problem with them is the people that uses *cough*macros*cough* for it..
Maybe the GMs should DM the ressers once in a while, to check if it is a afk'er being naughty. The problem with this however, is that people could just be afk (and not ressing)..
Dunno, its hard to counter I guess.
Lucas Kell
28-02-13, 16:48
I agree with William and Kame on this..
They Works the way they should.
The only problem with them is the people that uses *cough*macros*cough* for it..
Maybe the GMs should DM the ressers once in a while, to check if it is a afk'er being naughty. The problem with this however, is that people could just be afk (and not ressing)..
Dunno, its hard to counter I guess.
I'm really not surprised there's so much opposition to this. Like I said in my original post, its a great easy boost for an individual, it's just not good for the game. It just takes away a big chunk of the need for the early game and makes it possible to manufacture cash in huge volumes. It really makes the game pretty boring too, as there's simply no challenge any more. Anything we don't have we can simply buy, and we can just res mission any character up to Rhino driving level, then rhino them up to the near end game.
Kinda takes the RPG part away from the game.
Oh and the automated ressing, this can be countered by having the multiple types of res mission picked at random since people would need to buy multiple stacks of different BPs to ensure they had some for every mission type. Would make it a lot more hassle to do.
William Antrim
28-02-13, 16:56
If you are not surprised then don't take it so personally.
You can still rp your way through life and do all of those other things you want to do. You do not have a gun to your head forcing you to level this way. Some others want to level this way thats all, its our choice.
If you are not surprised then don't take it so personally.
You can still rp your way through life and do all of those other things you want to do. You do not have a gun to your head forcing you to level this way. Some others want to level this way thats all, its our choice.
This.
Your not forced to level this way..
Us that have leveled 20+ characters over the years, prefer to level as fast and painless as possible...
Lucas Kell
28-02-13, 17:28
This.
Your not forced to level this way..
Us that have leveled 20+ characters over the years, prefer to level as fast and painless as possible...
I have been playing since NC1 beta. I have levelled characters countless times. And I'm not taking anything personally. I'm simply saying there's better ways to allow us to level without taking the economy out with it.
William Antrim
28-02-13, 17:33
Slower is not better. Only a masochist would think that. If you have played since beta you would know the pain of starting a new char countless times over I would imagine.
The vast majority of people would agree that levelling faster is better for the most part I would think. Sure there are people who like to take their time and level slowly but they are few and far between from experience. For the most part the psychology of levelling is dull, boring and generally slow. If those people want to level nice and slowly and do it that way let them.
Let the rest of us have our choice though, we choose to do it this way.
A more constructive idea might be to think of something to spend the money on that we all produce so easily imo.
Lucas Kell
28-02-13, 17:39
Slower is not better. Only a masochist would think that. If you have played since beta you would know the pain of starting a new char countless times over I would imagine.
The vast majority of people would agree that levelling faster is better for the most part I would think. Sure there are people who like to take their time and level slowly but they are few and far between from experience. For the most part the psychology of levelling is dull, boring and generally slow. If those people want to level nice and slowly and do it that way let them.
Let the rest of us have our choice though, we choose to do it this way.
A more constructive idea might be to think of something to spend the money on that we all produce so easily imo.
Or possibly they could make it make less money without affecting EXP?
Like I've been saying all along I'm not anti the missions, just anti the generation of money from nothing.
It doesn't work the way it's supposed to. You're supposed to actually research the cubes, hence the Title "research mission". I think they should just switch the requirement for completing the mission to the completion of a cube. Much like they do with kill missions, you get credit as you research and the money upon completion. This should be like this for all tradeskill missions.
This would definitely help the already breaking economy. People use research macros all day every day, researching these cubes simply to turn around and sell them for enormous profit. If you don't believe me go to Chester and have a look at 10 guys standing around the Gogo.
Does everybody benefit from this particular flaw in the system? Sure they do much like everyone benefited from the flaws in the drone system before they fixed that. It's still not ok to do even if it's easy for people to level off of. I thought the point was to fix these flaws, not further exploit them.
I think they should fix this flaw in the mission system before it messes the economy up anymore but I fear the damage has already been done.
I disagree with Faid, and agree with everyone else. It works as intended. I rather have DEV team focusing on fixing other stuff than nerfing something that not a lot of people complain about. Even if changing TL150 missions "fixes" the economy, it's only a matter of time before someone finds the next item that can be maximized for profit.
Dribble Joy
28-02-13, 18:35
The problems I see with the current res mission system:
Anyone can complete the mission, not just the researcher.
If non-researchers are using them to level, then there is a problem with the leveling system for those runners (such as monk dex) rather than a problem with the missions.
Cash reward is far too high.
Xp reward is far too low (for tradeskillers).
Lucas Kell
28-02-13, 18:57
It doesn't work the way it's supposed to. You're supposed to actually research the cubes, hence the Title "research mission". I think they should just switch the requirement for completing the mission to the completion of a cube. Much like they do with kill missions, you get credit as you research and the money upon completion. This should be like this for all tradeskill missions.
This would definitely help the already breaking economy. People use research macros all day every day, researching these cubes simply to turn around and sell them for enormous profit. If you don't believe me go to Chester and have a look at 10 guys standing around the Gogo.
Does everybody benefit from this particular flaw in the system? Sure they do much like everyone benefited from the flaws in the drone system before they fixed that. It's still not ok to do even if it's easy for people to level off of. I thought the point was to fix these flaws, not further exploit them.
I think they should fix this flaw in the mission system before it messes the economy up anymore but I fear the damage has already been done.
Agreed. Although without making better combat missions the research mission will still be considerably better.
The research outsourcing I don't think is the issue though, the issue is the ability to bulk produce the output in advance. IT would likely require a lot more development, but if each mission require the BP of a particular item, generated at the time of accepting the mission, and unique to that mission, this would allow outsourcing research without bulk production in advance.
The problems I see with the current res mission system:
Anyone can complete the mission, not just the researcher.
If non-researchers are using them to level, then there is a problem with the leveling system for those runners (such as monk dex) rather than a problem with the missions.
Cash reward is far too high.
Xp reward is far too low (for tradeskillers).
Agreed here too. These missions really are designed to help tradeskillers level. If they made all missions better at working for the relevant classes/builds so people didn't need to do the research and made the cash rewards balanced across them this would be good.
Arista Barret
28-02-13, 19:21
I hope puppies die in a car fire before you change 150's. The game is boring as hell and alot of us are not playing to run circles in an hq. Eliminate them and you will make the game a total stinking burnt puppy bag.
Lucas Kell
28-02-13, 19:24
I hope puppies die in a car fire before you change 150's. The game is boring as hell and alot of us are not playing to run circles in an hq. Eliminate them and you will make the game a total stinking burnt puppy bag.
Honestly I can't tell which side of the debate this comment is on. :D
WOW - You gain a 10% boost at a cost of at least a couple of thousand gold.
NC - You gain a huge boost, allowing you to level in a day what you used to take 3-5 days to do, and get paid to do it.
You either (purposely) leave facts out of the equation, or your analysis is (purposely) incomplete, possibly in an attempt to make your point seem more valid.
You leave out the fact that you need the following :
- a capped (almost) resser spy
- resser implants (TH and SS CPU at least)
- a 1 000 000nc ressearch tool
-90 faction sympathy
Theres at least 5 mil invested in the tool and imps alone. Not to mention the fact you need an (almost) capped char and then enough FS on both the resser and the cube runner. This is a shitload of time.
Again though, this eliminates the need for anything for <lvl 25s to do. We may as well start at /25 by default.
Again, not a lot of noob characters have the means to get 90 FS right off the bat.
Your logic here is flawed.
This snipet of garbage alone should be enough to discredit your point in the eyes of a lot of people in the community.
Arista Barret
28-02-13, 19:42
Honestly I can't tell which side of the debate this comment is on. :D
To clarify....tl150 is perfectly fine as it is. Stop forcing us into a monolithic playstyle of boredom and pve.
Lucas Kell
28-02-13, 19:51
You either leave facts out of the equation, or your analysis is (puposely) incomplete, possibly in an attempt to make your point seem more valid.
You leave out the fact that you need the following :
- a capped (almost) resser spy
- resser implants (TH and SS CPU at least)
- a 1 000 000nc ressearch tool
-90 faction sympathy
Theres at least 5 mil invested in the tool and imps alone. Not to mention the fact you need an (almost) capped char and then enough FS on both the resser and the cube runner. This is a shitload of time.
Again, not a lot of noob characters have the means to get 90 FS right off the bat.
Your logic here is flawed.
This snipet of garbage alone should be enough to discredit your point in the eyes of a lot of people in the community.
Getting 90 FS is incredibly easy - Very Easy Recycling missions gain you more than they cost to do, can be bought from the chemicals vendor and give 1 symp per mission. It takes about 2 hours to get to 90 from a new character and you end up with more money than you started with. Oh and you only need a few hundred nc to get started on this which all noobs have. You could give me any character with 0nc, and a few wooden crates later I'll be happily on my way to 100 symp.
You can buy the cubes, you don't need a resser or a tool to make them (that's kind of the reason for this thread...) and you can usually buy a few, then a few more, etc and work your way up in cash.
Usual price is 7k per cube, which you can make 10k per cube back (so you make 9k per mission).
I actually only recently returned to the game with nothing (as I had no chars on thsi server) and now I have multiple millions as well as vehicles and apartments, and pretty much don't want for anything. I do not have a high level researcher.
I know my information is correct, because I have personally experienced this, which is why I'm so clear on the fact that this is not a good economical situation.
So lets try to gather all of our facts before incorrectly referring to what people are saying as garbage shall we?
Again though, this eliminates the need for anything for <lvl 25s to do. We may as well start at /25 by default.
Look, you posted that, and by my standards, and I guess a lot of people's standards, this logic is 3rd grader garbage.
Also, earlier in my same post I proved that your comparison to WOW was flawed and used facts to do so.
To produce the cubes you need a lot of cash and time invested.
Consider yourself lucky that someone is willing to sell you BPs instead of taking for granted that the whole server does this and that the economy is ruined.
Lucas Kell
28-02-13, 20:40
Look, you posted that, and by my standards, and I guess a lot of people's standards, this logic is 3rd grader garbage.
Also, earlier in my same post I proved that your comparison to WOW was flawed and used facts to do so.
To produce the cubes you need a lot of cash and time invested.
Consider yourself lucky that someone is willing to sell you BPs instead of taking for granted that the whole server does this and that the economy is ruined.
No, its logical. If everyone wants to just have an easy way to get to /25, then by starting people with enough exp to be /25 accomplishes this without destroying the economy. Its not a serious suggestion, more a statement on the fact that there needs to be actual gameplay from /2 to /25, not just running round the same room.
When exactly did you prove my comparison to wow flawed?
And how can you seriously not see the difference lol.
WOW you SPEND THOUSANDS of gold and get a 10% exp boost, saving you a few hours over a few days.
NC you GAIN MILLIONS while getting a massive XP boost, saving you DAYS.
So in summary this is SPEND MONEY TO MAKE LOW XP BOOST vs MAKE MONEY TO GET HUGE XP BOOST
Seriously... I don't know how to explain this to you so you will actually understand the difference.... Anyone got any ideas?
To produce the cubes you need a moderate amount of cash, but you can make that back 3-4 times over. But the point is you don't have to produce the cubes. You can buy them. There are plenty for sale, especially from botters.
This is where :
You leave out the fact that you need the following :
- a capped (almost) resser spy
- resser implants (TH and SS CPU at least)
- a 1 000 000nc ressearch tool
-90 faction sympathy
Theres at least 5 mil invested in the tool and imps alone. Not to mention the fact you need an (almost) capped char and then enough FS on both the resser and the cube runner. This is a shitload of time.
Again, not a lot of noob characters have the means to get 90 FS right off the bat.
Your logic here is flawed.
You either (purposely) leave facts out of the equation, or your analysis is (purposely) incomplete, possibly in an attempt to make your point seem more valid.
You leave out the fact that you need the following :
- a capped (almost) resser spy
- resser implants (TH and SS CPU at least)
- a 1 000 000nc ressearch tool
-90 faction sympathy
Theres at least 5 mil invested in the tool and imps alone. Not to mention the fact you need an (almost) capped char and then enough FS on both the resser and the cube runner. This is a shitload of time.
Again, not a lot of noob characters have the means to get 90 FS right off the bat.
Your logic here is flawed.
This snipet of garbage alone should be enough to discredit your point in the eyes of a lot of people in the community.
This is where your logic is flawed. You litterally need none of these things to do these missions, you dont need a high lvl resser you dont need resser imps, you don't need the tl150 tool, and you dont need any time or money invested, people macro these items all day and night. The way the system works now you just need the cubes.
The entire mission system needs a complete rework. Hard missions are too easy, and the mechanics involved with the completion of the missions is flawed. A char who has never ressed anything in his life can turn in the hardest res missions. It's just wrong and needs to be reworked. As I stated before, its actually not too hard to fix the res missions, you get a completed notice as you complete each individual cube, same as the kill missions.
Faid the cubes have to come from somwhere and be made by someone.
Regardless of macro or not, the character that produces the cubes has to have had some investment to it, so the comparison made by thread starter was flawed. Someone actually had to invest money to get the cubes done.
Arista Barret
28-02-13, 22:35
The cubes are fine. the tradeskillers are fine. the economy is fine. the market for cubes is fine....next topic plz.
Lucas Kell
01-03-13, 00:26
Faid the cubes have to come from somwhere and be made by someone.
Regardless of macro or not, the character that produces the cubes has to have had some investment to it, so the comparison made by thread starter was flawed. Someone actually had to invest money to get the cubes done.
LOL
So you are saying macroing to gain money is OK?
I really don't think you've looked at how cheap to produce these cubes are...
This should be addressed with larger changes to the game, not something that needs to be changed now because its game breaking broken. The entire mission system as a whole should be addressed but likely needs a bunch more pve balancing before it is even feasible.
Cornhusker
10-03-13, 10:29
My question to you is, yes you make a profit off these missions but have you actually ran a stack of TL150 missions? That is 83 missions, if you have the patience and diligence to run all those missions than by all means you are an amazing individual is all I can say. If I can make it past running 10 missions I am doing good in a day.
The fact also remains you say how easy it is to level up etc etc. But, have you put the facts to how long it takes to select the mission and then run all those? You might actually level faster if you have all the weapons made first and level by killing repetitive mobs over and over.
Hell, if they take away ability to run all those missions and don't fix mission selection prompt. Why not just make ability of making a character that is almost capped or capped just so you can by pass leveling if your not into pve. See we can always complain on and on, and come up with more ridiculous arguments to possibly implement into the game. Sigh.
wow... i wonder why this is even an issue, but then again the BORED TO THEIR WITS exploiters want the easiest way to play! WTF. i say BAN people who are using this active exploit and take away the possibility to turn in those missions without the required skill. you are not even arguing two EQUAL sides here. you are arguing for an EXPLOIT to be left in the game because you can't be bothered with playing any more. go play something else. it's like those banksters say... you need money to make money. the game economy is broken as it is and you just want an easy cop out. to big to fail, to big to jail? i beg to differ.
You need to calm down there, no one's saying "don't ban exploiters, we want them in the game". If we knew and could prove, who is exploiting the missions, they'd already be banned. Sorry, it's not enough to just say someone is obviously exploiting because they're selling hundreds of cubes or have a lot of credits, so ban them. This isn't some 13 year old's counter strike server where you can ban anyone because they're "obviously cheating", there needs to be proof.
Honestly, I'm not fully convinced people are macroing, wasn't that annoying processor window move after every few uses added to prevent that?
Exploit discussion stops here for the sake of the thread. Macroing is not permitted in game. Let's get back on to the topic at hand.
Cheers,
Lucas Kell
10-03-13, 19:10
My question to you is, yes you make a profit off these missions but have you actually ran a stack of TL150 missions? That is 83 missions, if you have the patience and diligence to run all those missions than by all means you are an amazing individual is all I can say. If I can make it past running 10 missions I am doing good in a day.
The fact also remains you say how easy it is to level up etc etc. But, have you put the facts to how long it takes to select the mission and then run all those? You might actually level faster if you have all the weapons made first and level by killing repetitive mobs over and over.
Hell, if they take away ability to run all those missions and don't fix mission selection prompt. Why not just make ability of making a character that is almost capped or capped just so you can by pass leveling if your not into pve. See we can always complain on and on, and come up with more ridiculous arguments to possibly implement into the game. Sigh.
It really doesn't take very long at all. You can run all 83 within 2 hours easily. In that time you should end up with at least 20 in every skill, and 2.5m nc. You can't get anywhere near that level of income at a low level that quickly, and could only manage to level you main stats that quickly through combat. The missions as they are render SL useless, destroy the economy with huge income and cause low level areas to be empty of players.
Honestly, I'm not fully convinced people are macroing, wasn't that annoying processor window move after every few uses added to prevent that?
Without meaning to break Trivaldi's ruling in any way, the moving of the processor window really doesn't really affect exploiters. It is really really irritating when manually building a BP Library however, especially when you are OCD about your windows not overlapping :p
Look i dont know why you talk like TL150s are easy. They are not, they require 225+ ressearch skill to be made and they take a TON of time to make.
I dont understand why you guys talk about the missions and deliberatly leave the ressearch and it's requirement out of discussion. The missions still have to be made by someone with a cap resser.
People are stupid to sell them for cheap. I personnally make all my BPs manually and would NEVER sell them at a loss to someone else : i run em all myself.
Lucas Kell
10-03-13, 23:17
Look i dont know why you talk like TL150s are easy. They are not, they require 225+ ressearch skill to be made and they take a TON of time to make.
I dont understand why you guys talk about the missions and deliberatly leave the ressearch and it's requirement out of discussion. The missions still have to be made by someone with a cap resser.
People are stupid to sell them for cheap. I personnally make all my BPs manually and would NEVER sell them at a loss to someone else : i run em all myself.Firstly, I never said the RESEARCH was easy.
I'm not asking for the missions to be removed. I just want it to be so that a researcher cant just sell stacks and stacks of cubes and other people then run the missions.
Secondly, the cost of making 249 TL 150s is around 500k, so the mission reward is 500% of the base cost. TOO HIGH!
Thirdly, they are easy. They don't really fail that much and they can be done while dual boxing with another char. Just turn up the sound and listen for the finish sound.
Don't make it sound like its some epic journey to make them and you get stiffed at the end. It's a ridiculously easy way to make a huge volume of cash in nearly no time. Compared to any other method of gathering cash, its by far the quickest.
(I too manually create these. Hey, I want the loophole fixed, doesn't mean I'm not gonna use it while it's there)
Personally (although I don't agree with exploiting) I would not really have any issue with players transferring stacks of BPs to their alts and then running tl150 missions to level up. The real issue for me is the effect on the economy. With these sort of missions being run the amount of money entering the economy is much greater than the amount leaving it. This is one of the contributions (although in my opinion not the main one). This means inevitably rampant inflation will screw the economy over in the long run.
Before Terra shut down it was ridiculous. For veteran players money was almost meaningless. I think at peak my chars had a couple of hundred million between them (cash!) and countless parts and rares and I wasn't even wealthy compared to some players. If a new player were to join in this state they would probably struggle horribly to buy rares at their over-inflated prices.
We have a great opportunity for a fresh start with the new server but as it stands the economy is going to end up in exactly the same state as Terra was.
And I can confirm seeing literally 10 people standing around the gogo at Chester. I was enroute to MB and initially assumed I'd run into an OP fight in progress when I saw the local. When I got inside I quickly realised what was going on (especially when no one responded to my chat messages!).
Cornhusker
11-03-13, 02:59
Deno, if you had so much money you obviously didn't do much in terra, I was broke on so many characters as I was always pvp'in to much to make money. Let alone I say this to, another route to 'fix' the broken economy is to make it so that repair guys can't repair as much and condition worsens instead of staying same whether all points in repair or just 30 points pretty much, along with making weapons such as rares that you had tons of parts back then break easier to make it so that the economy keeps moving for buying new weapons since 'everyone' is so rich. But, not everyone use to run missions as I never ran missions as it was extremely boring to me. But, then again it was me, everyone can say everyone does it, but look around I don't think everyone runs missions past that initial /20 to /25 area if they even do that. Reason why I am saying this is because, how many people did you know that would just buy a rare weapon for tons of millions of cash just cause they had endless cash.
I personally have to say this, yes people might start with it if they can, but not all can and the economy won't be messed up to bad, since people are selling the stack of TL150 missions for what? 1.5 or 1.7 million a stack? Maybe I am mistaken, but that does not mean they are getting 2.5 mil a stack as they had to pay for half already. Also, not unless you have a character you made first or someone nice gave them to you, you have to have at least one character to make money so you can pay for them...... well unless you made the missions yourself which again means you had already leveled a character.
I also want to point this out as well, others mentioned this as well, not everyone likes pve or pvp but likes to tradeskill, granted they are the oddballs of the game, but everyone has a thing they like to do in the game. Taking away the profits they like to do in game. As in profits in their regards might help you but will disappoint them and make them come here to complain on the actions you didn't like and try to force a change.
Maybe we are looking into the wrong venture is my opinion. Maybe to stop the people doing wrong, in not making missions themselves but by third party means, we need to think a means to fix the processor so that those programs are not viable anymore. Not sure if that is possible, but I think that would be the easier concept to try to work around rather than take away rights in the game that people that have played a long time on multiple characters means of fast initial leveling.
I don't know if the suggestion that all I merely did on Terra was 'sit around amassing wealth' was a thinly veiled personal attack or what, but it's hardly relevant to this discussion. For your information I spent 95% of my time PvPing as anyone who knew me could testify... It's not difficult to both pvp and be ridiculously rich when you've been on the same server for years...
Changing the game to make macroing impossible is probably too difficult (I doubt they can just put in a Captcha after every processor use...). I also think you miss the entire point about it wrecking the economy. If this practice is as widespread as people suggest it is, then huge amounts of money are entering the economy with nowhere else to go. Someone suggested making items degrade faster. This would increase the rate at which money left the economy, but could become annoying. Might be easier just to increase the prices of things.
Anyway, this thread isn't focused on the economic aspects. I personally think there's not much they can do about it (it is afterall a legitimate way of leveling an alt). It's an option that some people choose and other than the potential impact on the economy it has no detrimental effect on other players, although I personally can't stand the idea of spending several hours repeating the same mission over and over again...
A serious discussion on how we could improve the economy is definitely warranted though.
braydagner
11-03-13, 07:13
One sentence.
There are so many more important things to fix than 150 missions.
Okay, another few sentences.
The introduction of more money sinks is a more viable solution to a money laden economy. Money doesn't buy a whole hell of a lot lately, as trades have always been more beneficial to high-level, devout players. And the people that buy stacks usually already have a ton of money if they are spending upwards of 1.5m on cubes. If a researcher has capped STR, CON, and PSI, it is more beneficial to him to sell the cubes rather than run every cube he made to get him to that level. 1300 XP is nothing to a tradeskiller when it takes a couple million points to level; why not do what is most prudent, i.e. sell the cubes to someone that gets more use of them creating a profit for your time spent?
Lucas Kell
11-03-13, 10:09
One sentence.
There are so many more important things to fix than 150 missions.
Okay, another few sentences.
The introduction of more money sinks is a more viable solution to a money laden economy. Money doesn't buy a whole hell of a lot lately, as trades have always been more beneficial to high-level, devout players. And the people that buy stacks usually already have a ton of money if they are spending upwards of 1.5m on cubes. If a researcher has capped STR, CON, and PSI, it is more beneficial to him to sell the cubes rather than run every cube he made to get him to that level. 1300 XP is nothing to a tradeskiller when it takes a couple million points to level; why not do what is most prudent, i.e. sell the cubes to someone that gets more use of them creating a profit for your time spent?
You realise that the reson that money doesn't buy a hell of a lot, is the generation of money such as this has devalued money to the point that it is close to worthless right? That's the whole point of this thread.
If you are a new player (the type we are trying to encourage to play to bring the game back) the economy means you can't join in with everyone else as you simply can't draw enough money.
Lucas Kell
11-03-13, 15:49
Just to add to the discussion:
As of just now, according to the stats there 5,104,462,465 nc in the system across players and clans. When you think about how small the player base is, this is a ridiculous amount of cash to have floating in the economy.
It is the same with techs. Getting Techs is too easy. Same with money.
The current cost-benefit-ratio is very good for casual players at the moment. But it is even better for the hardcore gamers.
This system has to be rebalanced in some way. (Same with OP-rewards and so on)
Easiest and most correct way to fix the problem: Make tl150 research missions completed upon actual completion of the cube. Exactly the same as the kill missions. Problem solved, you don't have to worry about the economy, the money, the XP, people macroing at Chester, none of it. Make it the way it is intended to be. Do the same with recycle and construct missions. Why is this so difficult?
Lucas Kell
11-03-13, 19:31
Easiest and most correct way to fix the problem: Make tl150 research missions completed upon actual completion of the cube. Exactly the same as the kill missions. Problem solved, you don't have to worry about the economy, the money, the XP, people macroing at Chester, none of it. Make it the way it is intended to be. Do the same with recycle and construct missions. Why is this so difficult?
Yeah, this is /signed.
As one of the people at Chester, I do not agree with nerfing tl150's at all.
I level my resser there (on my secondary monitor) while leveling another character/watching movies.
I use these tl150's as a source of income and a way of leveling noob characters.
The problem we have to address is the ones that we are not allowed to talk about. With that problem fixed, NOTHING is wrong with tl150's as it is a VERY time consuming process, it require quite a Funding to get startet.
Lucas Kell
11-03-13, 23:12
As one of the people at Chester, I do not agree with nerfing tl150's at all.
I level my resser there (on my secondary monitor) while leveling another character/watching movies.
I use these tl150's as a source of income and a way of leveling noob characters.
The problem we have to address is the ones that we are not allowed to talk about. With that problem fixed, NOTHING is wrong with tl150's as it is a VERY time consuming process, it require quite a Funding to get startet.
Except it doesn't take that much funding to get started. It takes 500k to produce a Stack, but if you produce 9 cubes then hand in you can quickly ramp up how many you need to make.
Think about the reason you use that method to make income and level your alts. Its the fastest way to do both right? And you do it while watching TV or playing another character? So you are saying the best way to level and make cash can be done while as close to AFK as you can get, and this isn't unbalanced?
Come on...
Again, I think the whole point of the research mission is that you get credit for actually researching the item, therefore you should only get credit for completing the cubes as you do them. Just like the kill missions are designed that people get credit for killing the designated mob. Recycle and construct missions should work the same.
I understand that people want to keep them the way they are because it's a ridiulously fast and easy way to level low chars and get rich, but it doesnt mean it's right. Used to be that droning was the fast easy way to level and get rich, but they fixed that. How is this any different?
I hate to bring it up, cos it's a brilliant way of making cash, but TL 150 research missions really break the economy. Researchers can sell the cubes for 6k a piece and still turn a profit, and the mission runnners earn 10k per cube. This means its pretty easy to turn a few hundred thousand NC into a few million in a very short space of time.
Now I understand that missions still need to be around for all trades and that they need to pay fairly, but to me this just means huge amounts of cash is injected into the economy from the ether without much effort.
My suggestion to correct this is 2 actions. These could also be applied to other missions.
1. Reward for the mission is brought down a small amount to adjust for the realistic price of production. 6-7k per cube (18k - 21k per mission) should be enough reward so researchers can make money doing missions with their profession but reduce the amount of bulk cube sales.
2. The mission should generate a number of different varieties of BP requirement. So instead of its all being just a single type of v-hard-3 cube, after accepting the mission, you speak to the first guy, and he give you one of a random selection of cubes. This should be at least 5-10 varieties of mission item. This will prevent someone being able to buy a single stack knowing that they have everything they need for any TL150 Res mission for that faction.
Like I say, I hate to bring this up as its an easy way to make money which is great for an individual, but the economy of the game needs to be made more stable, and injection of funds of this degree is not a way to maintain this.
I have a counter Idea you should pick your PC up dont unplug and rip it out of the wall and throw it out of the window and dont come back gg
Honestly the Devs time is much needed on things that are currently breaking the game rather than whining about the fact others are making easy money and your just bitter about it id like to add I do not have a researcher but from time to time i bore myself to death and do them to help level my noob chars
Lucas Kell
12-03-13, 00:04
I have a counter Idea you should pick your PC up dont unplug and rip it out of the wall and throw it out of the window and dont come back gg
Honestly the Devs time is much needed on things that are currently breaking the game rather than whining about the fact others are making easy money and your just bitter about it id like to add I do not have a researcher but from time to time i bore myself to death and do them to help level my noob chars
OK angry :D
In my opinion, the state of the economy and the effect that has on new players is a fairly critical issue that needs to be addressed. I'm not telling you you have to agree, but viewpoints others that your own aren't necessarily wrong.
As for being bitter, why would I be bitter? I've said a few times in this thread (if you'd bothered to read it) that I myself run these missions. They are the best way to level noobs and make cash, so of course I run them. But I'm willing to look at the bigger picture and say "This is not good for the game. This issue needs to be addressed, even if it cuts off a major revenue stream for myself as well."
What I don't do is suggest people leave the game simply because I disagree with what they have to say and can't think of a counter point.
Except it doesn't take that much funding to get started. It takes 500k to produce a Stack, but if you produce 9 cubes then hand in you can quickly ramp up how many you need to make.
It also takes a (almost) capped resser and a ~1mil tool. And hopefully 2-3 ressearch chips like a ~2mil SS or ~2mil TH CPU. Now add to that your 500k value for empty cubes and substance.
Leaving facts out of the equation again arn't we Kell ?
Except it doesn't take that much funding to get started.
Over and over you completely disregard the main requirement for making TL150's, which is the char and and the imps and the tool. That alone is a 20-25 hrs playing to get the XP (without cubes, remember you can't make them ?) and then saving up to for the chips and also SS CPU can be quite rare and not always available for purchase.
It also takes a (almost) capped resser and a ~1mil tool. And hopefully 2-3 ressearch chips like a ~2mil SS or ~2mil TH CPU. Now add to that your 500k value for empty cubes and substance.
Over and over you completely disregard the main requirement for making TL150's, which is the char and and the imps and the tool. That alone is a 20-25 hrs playing to get the XP (without cubes, remember you can't make them ?) and then saving up to for the chips and also SS CPU can be quite rare and not always available for purchase.
I don't think anyone's arguing that the original resser shouldn't get credit for doing the missions. As you point out it's rather difficult to get started and I think the large reward for these missions should be rewarded to the researcher who has to go through all the trouble of buying the tool, getting the chips etc. Not some 0/2 noob char who is too lazy to level the intended way.
The underlying problem I see here is that he (OP) probably only bought the cubes from someone dumb enough to sell them under market price because they're either dumb or because they're dumb.
My cubes are precious to me, highly valuable good that are worth a lot for the XP for the starter chars, it's true. This is why I don't sell them.
Selling cubes at under market price is the problem.
As for OP, if you think cubes are easy to make, you havn't ever made them thats for sure.
I suggest you just go ahead and make one. Make a spy from scratch and lv it however you want and spec the necessary 225 ressearch points and buy a tool and make a few 249 stacks.
Then come back and tell us how you feel about TL150's.
The underlying problem I see here is that he (OP) probably only bought the cubes from someone dumb enough to sell them under market price because they're either dumb or because they're dumb.
My cubes are precious to me, highly valuable good that are worth a lot for the XP for the starter chars, it's true. This is why I don't sell them.
Selling cubes at under market price is the problem.
As for OP, if you think cubes are easy to make, you havn't ever made them thats for sure.
I suggest you just go ahead and make one. Make a spy from scratch and lv it however you want and spec the necessary 225 ressearch points and buy a tool and make a few 249 stacks.
Then come back and tell us how you feel about TL150's.
If they are sold under price the effort to make them must have been quite low.
The reason must be that an illegal way was being used to make them.
Countering that would be very good. This is an old subject.
Crazy idea: Maybe researching should be changed to be more like hacking ;)
Or a more serious idea: All processor slots are numbered. After researching is started a number is seen flashing. You must press the appropriate number on the processor to start the next res. This is a kind of captcha, as someony jokingly suggested before.
People are missing a subtle point here when discussing the effect on the economy. They say the cost is huge (5 mil for tools/implants). With the exception of the tool ALL the money goes to other players. So the only money sink (as in money that has left the economy) is from the tool and the raw materials. The net influx of cash into the economy is therefore massive. Personally I think they need to decrease the cash payments received upon killing higher level mobs to really address the problem. After leveling through El Farid and other AoE dungeons most players are not short of cash.
braydagner
12-03-13, 04:55
Look, if I wanted to, I could go out and make over a couple million in a night without selling to players or running missions. The money is always going to be farmed in one way or another, there is no getting around that. And some researchers use OPs to help them be able to research/contruct said cubes. Are they supposed to spend half of their time waiting off SI every time they want to run one mission? How is that fair to tradeskillers? Again, it's just another idea to screw over non-PVP aspects of the game.
When you first start researching 150 cubes, you break and fail more than you make, but the XP is still worth it. You're losing money from the start, why not make it up later on?
And 500k to make a stack sounds like a barter's price for the materials. Not everyone has access to a barter.
Your argument is like Swiss cheese. As in, you think it's holy and I think it lacks enough substance.
Even at the cap, the failure rate of researching the TL 150 cubes is around 33%. Of that, 33% of those are critical failures where the cube is destroyed (ok, yeah, cube cost is trivial). I remember the discussion back in the day and the resulting change to the research mission system - this is the reason for the really high return on investment for the TL 150 missions. It helps to recover the cost of the research lube that you chew through in doing this. Of course, regardless of having a barterer or not, the 30k still way more than covers it.
And for the record, research missions DID used to be random. Each mission would always ask for 3BPs from a pool of 3 predetermined items for each mission TL level. For example, a TL 40 research mission would always ask for 3BPs of either implant xyz 2, implant abc 2, or implant def 2. You wouldn't know which one until you took the mission, and it was random. So you used to have to research stacks of these three items more or less equally. Then, at the next mission TL level, 3 whole new items.
I'm with Kame; I don't sell my cubes. Far too precious to spare the 800k-1M nc lost to selling the stack. 2.5M for a couple of hours running 83 missions is worth it. All that work for up to 1M nc less would kill me a little inside.
Lucas Kell
12-03-13, 11:28
It also takes a (almost) capped resser and a ~1mil tool. And hopefully 2-3 ressearch chips like a ~2mil SS or ~2mil TH CPU. Now add to that your 500k value for empty cubes and substance.
Leaving facts out of the equation again arn't we Kell ?
Over and over you completely disregard the main requirement for making TL150's, which is the char and and the imps and the tool. That alone is a 20-25 hrs playing to get the XP (without cubes, remember you can't make them ?) and then saving up to for the chips and also SS CPU can be quite rare and not always available for purchase.
The underlying problem I see here is that he (OP) probably only bought the cubes from someone dumb enough to sell them under market price because they're either dumb or because they're dumb.
My cubes are precious to me, highly valuable good that are worth a lot for the XP for the starter chars, it's true. This is why I don't sell them.
Selling cubes at under market price is the problem.
As for OP, if you think cubes are easy to make, you havn't ever made them thats for sure.
I suggest you just go ahead and make one. Make a spy from scratch and lv it however you want and spec the necessary 225 ressearch points and buy a tool and make a few 249 stacks.
Then come back and tell us how you feel about TL150's.
Sigh... how many times do we need to cover this. I have been back only a few weeks. I already have a resser that can do this and 3 spies that are of a high enough level they could do it. You only need about 70 base INT to get started, You don't need the SS or the Hawkins chip, Just a TH CPU (which is easy to get as its an epic reward). You also can make enough of of TL 90 missions to buy your tool (which is 600k, even less if you ask Rosalia to get you one) and can then immediately start raking in funds.
Just to be clear - It does not take 225 res to start doing these. It take around 200 res, and you can use buffs or drugs to lower that even further. Once you are doing them, you get 50k INT XP per cube, so it doesn't take long to level up. As for making a spy to do it, due to the double res, it took me less than 8 hours to turn a droner from new to PA. He could easily be lommed over and start producing cubes. If I didn't already have a resser I'd consider it.
I am not guessing on making stuff up when I'm saying this. I actually have done this. I'm not saying there are not things you have to do to get this I'm saying in comparison with ALL OTHER FORMS OF INCOME it's got a ridiculously high profit margin. I mean even compare it to construction. It will cost around the same in grease, except that really does take over a million for the tool, you also cant just keep trying through fails, as a fail will likely destroy the cube meaning you have to drop and retake the mission. You also can't preemptively create a 249 stack of construction mission items. Then at the end of it you get half the reward.
You are exaggerating how much time and cash goes into this, as you are afraid they will take this away and you won't be able to make huge volumes of cash. That's all that your raging trolling boils down to.
Edit: Just to add, 1.5m - 1.7m is Market Price. Most ressers sell them for that at the moment. You may not agree and by all means keep yours to yourself, but that's the way the market is. It's probably that way because a lot of people manually making them are running a second PC, so running the mission themselves means they can't play their mains at the same time. Sitting at a factory, clicking once a minute or so they can still play their main chars on a second box.
Even at the cap, the failure rate of researching the TL 150 cubes is around 33%. Of that, 33% of those are critical failures where the cube is destroyed (ok, yeah, cube cost is trivial). I remember the discussion back in the day and the resulting change to the research mission system - this is the reason for the really high return on investment for the TL 150 missions. It helps to recover the cost of the research lube that you chew through in doing this. Of course, regardless of having a barterer or not, the 30k still way more than covers it.
And for the record, research missions DID used to be random. Each mission would always ask for 3BPs from a pool of 3 predetermined items for each mission TL level. For example, a TL 40 research mission would always ask for 3BPs of either implant xyz 2, implant abc 2, or implant def 2. You wouldn't know which one until you took the mission, and it was random. So you used to have to research stacks of these three items more or less equally. Then, at the next mission TL level, 3 whole new items.
I'm with Kame; I don't sell my cubes. Far too precious to spare the 800k-1M nc lost to selling the stack. 2.5M for a couple of hours running 83 missions is worth it. All that work for up to 1M nc less would kill me a little inside.
Well that's just not right. Even at 210 res you only fail 1 in 4 (25%). Where are you getting the 33% failure rate from? A guy was making them not even at a lab yesterday, with only 85 base INT, and he only failed every 5th or 6th cube (i thought he was crazy since he's FA and there loads of labs he could go to).
The reason you say "it's worth it" is because its drastically higher than other forms of income... And can be done on a second PC while still playing your main...
Cornhusker
12-03-13, 12:16
Lucas Kell, you are over looking the fact also that the construction mission has by far a less chance to fail due to getting construction 2 and 3 implants being in. Let alone, that it takes less time to make than 3 research cubes for a missions.
Also, I saw someone mention the fact that the missions should be ended like kill missions. My question then is how do you expect others to level up faster as initial for missions then again this might be an even bigger issue. You guys do realize that it would then be easier to take advantage of this that way. The reason I bring this up is that during a research mission you MUST research something. Meaning if you get 1 item then you can still cancel the mission and hence the mass researching of items will happen again/anyway, only difference that will happen is the fact that you won't even need to run all over the faction HQ as oh my god that is right it will be in your inventory and be removed instantly to just be done with absolutely NO effort as well. Is this the path we are truly thinking of going down? I think this is a joke of an idea.
Also, I am sadly forced to mention this as the biggest concern this constantly keeps coming back to. This will not cause major issues in the game economy for the cash made. I never considered it until others mentioned this as well, but money is not the main resource in the game. How many times do you do a deal only in cash other than for a leveling item? Or hell, spend money to buy a rare? I have barely ever sold a rare item for cash only unless I never needed it or complete crap on slots and stats due to horrible constructor that lied on their true stats for construct. The only time I have dealt with cash on the deal is only for implants or to sweeten the deal on an item I trading for or another item or parts. So, I have to say, how much will certain people that have tons of cash really screw up the economy? Maybe I am over looking a key figure as I don't think people that have 40 billion cash in game compared to a person that has just 3 to 4 million can cause devastating damage to the game economy.
I personally think this topic should be put on the back burner until the issues with the server being unstable is resolved along with other major issues that are slowly still being worked on. Hell, I feel this topic should be even put behind the re-balancing project that will by far make things more how should I put it, more viable to see how cash could possibly become an issue in game. Also, maybe I am on the wrong times during everyone else that brings up these issues, but I don't see prices constantly going up for items. In fact, most items I see being sold are by far way lower price compared to terra ever was, and most days I see items constantly getting lower priced due to the fact that people are being stubborn for buying right now as the money isn't available to everyone.
Lucas Kell
12-03-13, 12:33
Lucas Kell, you are over looking the fact also that the construction mission has by far a less chance to fail due to getting construction 2 and 3 implants being in. Let alone, that it takes less time to make than 3 research cubes for a missions.
Also, I saw someone mention the fact that the missions should be ended like kill missions. My question then is how do you expect others to level up faster as initial for missions then again this might be an even bigger issue. You guys do realize that it would then be easier to take advantage of this that way. The reason I bring this up is that during a research mission you MUST research something. Meaning if you get 1 item then you can still cancel the mission and hence the mass researching of items will happen again/anyway, only difference that will happen is the fact that you won't even need to run all over the faction HQ as oh my god that is right it will be in your inventory and be removed instantly to just be done with absolutely NO effort as well. Is this the path we are truly thinking of going down? I think this is a joke of an idea.
Also, I am sadly forced to mention this as the biggest concern this constantly keeps coming back to. This will not cause major issues in the game economy for the cash made. I never considered it until others mentioned this as well, but money is not the main resource in the game. How many times do you do a deal only in cash other than for a leveling item? Or hell, spend money to buy a rare? I have barely ever sold a rare item for cash only unless I never needed it or complete crap on slots and stats due to horrible constructor that lied on their true stats for construct. The only time I have dealt with cash on the deal is only for implants or to sweeten the deal on an item I trading for or another item or parts. So, I have to say, how much will certain people that have tons of cash really screw up the economy? Maybe I am over looking a key figure as I don't think people that have 40 billion cash in game compared to a person that has just 3 to 4 million can cause devastating damage to the game economy.
I personally think this topic should be put on the back burner until the issues with the server being unstable is resolved along with other major issues that are slowly still being worked on. Hell, I feel this topic should be even put behind the re-balancing project that will by far make things more how should I put it, more viable to see how cash could possibly become an issue in game. Also, maybe I am on the wrong times during everyone else that brings up these issues, but I don't see prices constantly going up for items. In fact, most items I see being sold are by far way lower price compared to terra ever was, and most days I see items constantly getting lower priced due to the fact that people are being stubborn for buying right now as the money isn't available to everyone.
You realise the REASON cash is not used is because the economy is fucked right? When too much cash is injected into an economy the value of that cash declines. This has happened in NC to the point that cash is nearly valueless. Because of this people try to make more and more cash and not spend it, which it turn devalues it faster.
Newcomers to the game will arrive and not be able to afford anything and can't start getting techs until much later, so by destroying the economy, we are alienating new players.
The amount of cash in the system, including inactive accounts is around 5 billion. That's all players and clan banks combined = 5 billion (about 2000 stacks of Res missions) So the effect of injecting 1.5 - 2 million cash into the game for every stack of res missions is massive. To give you an idea, based on the GDP of the UK, that would be the equivalent of every stack injecting around 1 Trillion pounds into the economy.
Cornhusker
12-03-13, 12:52
You also do realize that the reason why cash is meaningless right now to the economy is simply because the server is still new. People want the biggest bang for their buck right? 5 billion on this server right now on all characters in game? How do you get these figures so I can truly see what you referring to versus made up figures to simply try to prove a false point.
I still see items made for nothing cash wise or free for leveling. Only thing you can say on items wise is the rares, which as I pointed out, I rather trade a weapon for another weapon or rares for item as you know your truly gaining something. Cash in game like I stated for me is merely buying imps armor and drugs. So how will in game cash mean the difference to anything.
If the cash flow from these missions is the biggest issue maybe we should slow down cash flow from mobs as well then as droners or aoe type characters in general can make just as much in a few hours of grinding if you prefer to go that route, only difference in that scenario is that you are gaining truly viable xp compared to a measly 1300xp and some cash. See what I am getting at. This supposed problem is nothing to me in my eyes, as I rather not deal with cash for currency as compared to identified rares/unidentified rares for trades for at least on rare weapons etc.
Lucas Kell
12-03-13, 13:10
You also do realize that the reason why cash is meaningless right now to the economy is simply because the server is still new. People want the biggest bang for their buck right? 5 billion on this server right now on all characters in game? How do you get these figures so I can truly see what you referring to versus made up figures to simply try to prove a false point.
I still see items made for nothing cash wise or free for leveling. Only thing you can say on items wise is the rares, which as I pointed out, I rather trade a weapon for another weapon or rares for item as you know your truly gaining something. Cash in game like I stated for me is merely buying imps armor and drugs. So how will in game cash mean the difference to anything.
If the cash flow from these missions is the biggest issue maybe we should slow down cash flow from mobs as well then as droners or aoe type characters in general can make just as much in a few hours of grinding if you prefer to go that route, only difference in that scenario is that you are gaining truly viable xp compared to a measly 1300xp and some cash. See what I am getting at. This supposed problem is nothing to me in my eyes, as I rather not deal with cash for currency as compared to identified rares/unidentified rares for trades for at least on rare weapons etc.
I'm getting those stats from the games statistics on the CityCom.
There's no way a droner can grind up 2.5m in a few hours.
It's nothing to you, but it's something to anyone that wants to see the server population grow.
As for 1300xp and some cash, let break down the 249 Stack:
So assuming you have no barter, it costs 5k/pack of lube and lube we know is about 3 cubes per pack.
So lets say there's a 30% failure rate (will be a lot less than this for a high level character) and assume every fail breaks the cube, that means you need enough lube for 324 attampts, which is 108 packs of lube [540k]
Cubes we'll inflate too and say 100nc per cube (it's really about 70) so you need 324 cubes [33k]
So your total cost of consumable items is 573k.
(by the way, to get consumable costs without a barterer up to a point that this mission would break even, you'd have to fail each cube 5 times before you made each one, breaking the cube every time)
Now lets add up what you get:
Each cube yields 50k INT exp: so 249*50k = 12.45m INT XP
Each stack is 83 Missions, at 1300xp/mission and 30000nc/mission, so:107900 xp (per skill, 539500 xp total) and 2.49m nc
So overall your consumable costs are 573k and you gain a total of 2.49m nc and 12,989,500 experience.
The logic of Mr Kell is flawless.
The only conclusion of it is that compared to other ways of leveling and making money the TL 150 res missions are unbalanced.
I think Mr Kell's aim is not personal gain but to make the game better for the comm.
Thank you.
Oldashanti
13-03-13, 17:02
The logic of Mr Kell is flawless.
The only conclusion of it is that compared to other ways of leveling and making money the TL 150 res missions are unbalanced.
I think Mr Kell's aim is not personal gain but to make the game better for the comm.
Thank you.
This
Its a serious Threat to Economy in this game. Dont make Barters obsolete again please. The market is flodded with Money again and that is a bad thing. Many Players enjoy the wheeling and dealing in Neorcon. Do not underestimate this, the trading and Economy-System in NC is unique and for many of us a big reason why we play the game.
I allways thought it was a bad idea to get Money just from killing Mobs. Let them loot and sell. But thats another Topic.
I'm getting those stats from the games statistics on the CityCom.
There's no way a droner can grind up 2.5m in a few hours.
It's nothing to you, but it's something to anyone that wants to see the server population grow.
As for 1300xp and some cash, let break down the 249 Stack:
So assuming you have no barter, it costs 5k/pack of lube and lube we know is about 3 cubes per pack.
So lets say there's a 30% failure rate (will be a lot less than this for a high level character) and assume every fail breaks the cube, that means you need enough lube for 324 attampts, which is 108 packs of lube [540k]
Cubes we'll inflate too and say 100nc per cube (it's really about 70) so you need 324 cubes [33k]
So your total cost of consumable items is 573k.
(by the way, to get consumable costs without a barterer up to a point that this mission would break even, you'd have to fail each cube 5 times before you made each one, breaking the cube every time)
Now lets add up what you get:
Each cube yields 50k INT exp: so 249*50k = 12.45m INT XP
Each stack is 83 Missions, at 1300xp/mission and 30000nc/mission, so:107900 xp (per skill, 539500 xp total) and 2.49m nc
So overall your consumable costs are 573k and you gain a total of 2.49m nc and 12,989,500 experience.
The logic of Mr Kell is flawless.
The only conclusion of it is that compared to other ways of leveling and making money the TL 150 res missions are unbalanced.
I think Mr Kell's aim is not personal gain but to make the game better for the comm.
Thank you.
Absolutely agreed. I think the issue that these are masking is that low level leveling is quite painful. I would be in favor of leaving cube xp where it is (for the moment), largely nerfing gold produced, and revisiting the xp once leveling at lowish levels has been tweaked.
Assimilator
14-03-13, 07:54
... I would be in favor of leaving cube xp where it is (for the moment), largely nerfing gold produced, and revisiting the xp once leveling at lowish levels has been tweaked.
I think that's a solid compromise for the time being.
I think that's a solid compromise for the time being.
Sounds ok to me too. Still leaves potential Newbies alone in the low level areas but that Number should be pretty small anyway, while the Money affects the Game of many Players.
I think that's a solid compromise for the time being.
/signed
you should only be able to hand in a res missions if you ressed the actual item.
demonssword
24-04-13, 14:13
Maybe some evil mean clan should just take all the labs over and lock them for personal use only then... that takes away a lot of the player bonus and means you need more skill :P
Also you can get res subs for about 2.5k on a barter who is in the clan owning an op, that does inflate the profit margin by loads.
So yes I see that there is to much money available from these types of missions, but everyone has access to those missions, it isn't just a few so they can all do it.
Equally the cost of things is worked out based on such things, so for instance I can farm MC5 for 1-2 hours, and kill a base commander every 3-4 mins. So in 1 hour with a 5min kill time (cos it makes it easier) I can gather 12 MC5 rares, each MC5 takes 6 to make, so I can make 2 MC5s an hour if I am lucky and get all the right parts. Each made MC5 sells for between 500k for something like a riggers up to 2 - 2.5 mil for ballistic & DIP.
If you make cubes it takes you 1 min (I think) per cube, and 3 cubes per mission, so 20 missions an hour before delivering them if you have 0 fails. So per mission if you buy with barter and stuff you spend 2.5k a mission and get 18k if sold, 30k if handed in. So profit of 20 (60 cubes made = number of missions worth you can make in 1 hour) X 15.5k (amount of profit per missions worth made) = 310k in 1 hour...
So I make more hunting MC5.... or Regants solo... or warbots... or technically doing preaty much anything I can sell rare parts from. Even just doing firemobs works out as more as you can sell AR10s for 7.5k each to Yo's and you get 3-4k a mob + rare parts.
Lucas Kell
06-05-13, 19:40
Maybe some evil mean clan should just take all the labs over and lock them for personal use only then... that takes away a lot of the player bonus and means you need more skill :P
Also you can get res subs for about 2.5k on a barter who is in the clan owning an op, that does inflate the profit margin by loads.
So yes I see that there is to much money available from these types of missions, but everyone has access to those missions, it isn't just a few so they can all do it.
Equally the cost of things is worked out based on such things, so for instance I can farm MC5 for 1-2 hours, and kill a base commander every 3-4 mins. So in 1 hour with a 5min kill time (cos it makes it easier) I can gather 12 MC5 rares, each MC5 takes 6 to make, so I can make 2 MC5s an hour if I am lucky and get all the right parts. Each made MC5 sells for between 500k for something like a riggers up to 2 - 2.5 mil for ballistic & DIP.
If you make cubes it takes you 1 min (I think) per cube, and 3 cubes per mission, so 20 missions an hour before delivering them if you have 0 fails. So per mission if you buy with barter and stuff you spend 2.5k a mission and get 18k if sold, 30k if handed in. So profit of 20 (60 cubes made = number of missions worth you can make in 1 hour) X 15.5k (amount of profit per missions worth made) = 310k in 1 hour...
So I make more hunting MC5.... or Regants solo... or warbots... or technically doing preaty much anything I can sell rare parts from. Even just doing firemobs works out as more as you can sell AR10s for 7.5k each to Yo's and you get 3-4k a mob + rare parts.
Of course you can make more farming MC5s... But since you can farm MC5s and repeatedly click research on another pc/laptop you can both research and farm MC5s at the same time. If you had to actively work to research, this would be less of an issue, but its just a click and forget kind of thing. I usually level up one char or go out mobbing while working through a few stacks of res cubes on another.
Of course you can make more farming MC5s... But since you can farm MC5s and repeatedly click research on another pc/laptop you can both research and farm MC5s at the same time. If you had to actively work to research, this would be less of an issue, but its just a click and forget kind of thing. I usually level up one char or go out mobbing while working through a few stacks of res cubes on another.
<OT>i don't think "mobbing" means what you think it does. ;)</OT>
Eternal Pink
07-05-13, 20:12
Of course you can make more farming MC5s... But since you can farm MC5s and repeatedly click research on another pc/laptop you can both research and farm MC5s at the same time. If you had to actively work to research, this would be less of an issue, but its just a click and forget kind of thing. I usually level up one char or go out mobbing while working through a few stacks of res cubes on another.
Err how? Only peeps with legacy accounts can dual log, peeps that didn't have 2 or more at the time that NC was subscription can't as it's against the fair use policy.
So once you've levelled up your chars (however many that is) and all your accounts are capped you would not be able to do this since you can't legally make another account and nobody that's joining now can as its against the fair use policy.
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