Rework Stealth

[nabbl]

Hi everyone,

I played my Spy a lot recently and I more and more realise what advantages you have playing this class.

I don't want to compare this to other classes but the Spy itself seems a bit too strong nowadays. One of the many problems could be the stealth behaviour.
A spy is able to get in stealth and therefor is nearly invincible. He can just run away and he's safe, if he manages to stay out of any AOE-Damage. Every Tank knows how hard it is to chase a stealthing spy.
The problem however is the speed that you have while in stealth.

Stealth is supposed to be a tool for infiltrating, for spying, for sneaking. But it is only used for evading combat these days.
And of course you can do this very effectively. Normally you should go into stealth when nobody sees you anyway and then infiltrate OPs or enemy cities.

So what I suggest is:
When you go into stealth, you should be slowed down to 2/3 of the normal runspeed. That would make chasing the stealther easier for other characters, and stealth-tools with higher stealth duration (like the obliterator) would become more important.

The stealth-tool would get back its designed value.

Of course there is the coincidence with the PE, who would also suffer from this change. But the PE as a whole has to be changed completely, so I would not like to see this part discussed in this thread.

[Zoltan]

What about the old system? You could get a "drugflash" if you using the stealth often and a little cooldown after each stealth too.

[Deus Ex Machina]

[...]The problem however is the speed that you have while in stealth.[...]If thats the problem, shouldn't the discussion be put on hold till the current "high speed problem" is solved/put into a state it will stay for now?
Because if speed is a problem, the high speed will factor into it.

I can't really comment on how hard / easy it is to chase a stealthed spy at the moment, but from the viewpoint of a spy I want to add that

1) I guess, depending on how it is implemented I could live with reduced speed (depending on original speed of course, see above, since it shouldn't be a walk in the park to chase a stealthed, moving spy)

2) If something promotes the use of the higher stealthtools I think the ways to get out of stealth should be reviewed too. At the moment the Stealthbreakers are very unhandy (way they work, weight and price combined, in my opinion, lead to that).

[ToxiN]

What about the old system? You could get a "drugflash" if you using the stealth often and a little cooldown after each stealth too.
++

i like it hehe even as spy

[pottburter]

Yeah, just go ahead and break another aspect of the game already.
You even realise there are people on the server not interessted in PVP?

Please stick to fix the issues you already broke first.

(And by you, I don't mean you personally Nabbl, please don't be offended)

[nabbl]

Yeah, just go ahead and break another aspect of the game already.
You even realise there are people on the server not interessted in PVP?

Please stick to fix the issues you already broke first.

(And by you, I don't mean you personally Nabbl, please don't be offended)

I am not offended :-)
Different opinions are something I very much appreciate. (*hearing laughter at the other end of the room*)

I do not see it as a thing of PvP. Even in PVE it makes perfectly sense. Why should you be able to pass a hundred monsters in stealth. There are spies who cross whole sectors in stealth. I do not think stealth should be designed like that.

In most MMORPGs stealth makes you automatically slower and I think it is no bad idea for Neocron also.

@Zoltan: It could be a solution. But I hate the way the drugflash is implemented right now. It just discourages you. How many times did I just log off because I had drugflash? Or I switched to desktop and did something more satisfying than standing around seeing nothing. There has to be a punishment of course for taking drugs, but it is just a pain in the arse at the moment.

[pottburter]

I do not see it as a thing of PvP. Even in PVE it makes perfectly sense. Why should you be able to pass a hundred monsters in stealth. There are spies who cross whole sectors in stealth. I do not think stealth should be designed like that.

To be honest, this sounds more like a runspeed issue to me than the stealth being overpowered.
It might be just me, but since I did not spec everything in runspeed the Stealth 3 I'm using is just enough to get past the aggro range of a few monsters.

Making one slower in stealth might render the Stealth Tool 1 and 2 useless.

[Arista Barret]

Whatever you guys decide to do, please make sure it doesn't take the fun out of playing a spy. The very first thing i spec on a spy is stealth and then runspeed. PvP should be the first goal but lets not forget about what makes a spy awesome to play...the stealth.

[DR REED]

To be honest, this sounds more like a runspeed issue to me than the stealth being overpowered.
It might be just me, but since I did not spec everything in runspeed the Stealth 3 I'm using is just enough to get past the aggro range of a few monsters.

Making one slower in stealth might render the Stealth Tool 1 and 2 useless.

I would like to agree. Stealth is valid for pve also. How many mobs i should be able to pass ?

Normally the spy should have the lowest resist/armor defense, therefore its intended to give him something to compensate this, and a USP , a unique feature.

This pvp problem seems to have more to do with the known speed/speedtanking problem, then solve it there rather than render items more useless for pvp issues.

And: the stealthed spy isn't complete invisible at all and vulnerable to some damage sorts, not AoE only (plasma cannon etc.).

I would not change this.

Reed

[nabbl]

I would like to agree. Stealth is valid for pve also. How many mobs i should be able to pass ?

Normally the spy should have the lowest resist/armor defense, therefore its intended to give him something to compensate this, and a USP , a unique feature.

This pvp problem seems to have more to do with the known speed/speedtanking problem, then solve it there rather than render items more useless for pvp issues.

And: the stealthed spy isn't complete invisible at all and vulnerable to some damage sorts, not AoE only (plasma cannon etc.).

I would not change this.

Reed

I just want to clarify what the role of the stealth should be. A tool for evade combat? Or a tool to spy and sneak for infiltration purposes?
At the moment it is only used to evade combat.
For me it is not directly related to the current runspeed-problems. It is more or less a discussion about the role of the stealth itself.

[Netphreak]

I just want to clarify what the role of the stealth should be. A tool for evade combat? Or a tool to spy and sneak for infiltration purposes?
At the moment it is only used to evade combat.
For me it is not directly related to the current runspeed-problems. It is more or less a discussion about the role of the stealth itself.

It should be a tool that a spy can use for any of the above situations.
Stealth in PvE is quite broken. If a mob see's you and you enter stealth it will still hit you. Sometimes they just completely ignore stealth and hit you even if you never agro'd them before stealthing.

In PvP, it usually takes a second to activate the tool and after being used you have to re-select it and then use the tool again, adding a few more seconds to re-stealthing.
I do however feel that the insane runspeed at the moment has made it the only means of survival. It used to be that a tank or whoever would just aim for your legs to cripple you and even if you stealthed you were in trouble. If they were using a CS or AoE weapon they'd kill you in stealth.

I'm not saying there's no issues with it, but I would like to see something done about runspeed first to then see exactly where we are at with regards to stealth usage.

[pottburter]

I just want to clarify what the role of the stealth should be. A tool for evade combat? Or a tool to spy and sneak for infiltration purposes?
At the moment it is only used to evade combat.

Sorry, but I fail to see the difference.
Ever since the abandonment of the Dome, there is nothing left to invade or sneak into. (Except the Canyon maybe)

I remember back on Mars I used stealth to get into the Dome and all the way to the FA HQ to change faction.
I was TT at that time and it was one of the most exciting things I ever did in NC, sneaking past guards and enemy players.

Nowadays, all that's left for stealth is "evading combat" and get through a public genrep unharmed.

"Infiltration" is evading combat in NC, as sad as it may be.

[Torg]

imho the spy should have less top damage and maybe even a little less defense, not less means to evade combat.

[Dribble Joy]

A 5 second delay (or however much) between using stealth and going invisible is something I have been saying for ages. I'm with nabbl, it's primary use is these days is a get out of jail card, not a means of infiltration.

[William Antrim]

Getting out of a damaging situation is exfiltration just so you know.

Agreed on the slow down point however. I like that. I do not like the 5 second delay though. A spy could easily die in that time. That would be horrendous! :)

[gostly]

Drugflash? No thank you.

Spies with less defense? No thank you to that as well.

5 second delay is too long for a spy, currently there is a delay (shorter than 5 seconds for sure but still long enough to die if you've been taking damage + latency issues)

I'm with netphreak on this issue, make some kind of progress with runspeed and see what happens. If you cripple a spy by shooting his legs then he shouldn't get away stealthed or not.

[Doc Holliday]

I actually liked the cool down. Im sick of spies that hit stealth when you point a gun at them. I had one yesterday who shall remain nameless. 2 vs 1 with a pe friend and they both whored the stealth at every opportunity. The spy was the worst offender as it actually hit stealth when i shot at it depsite the fact it was on 80% health. I actually walked off and left it. It wasnt a threat as it couldnt hit me anyway even when stood still on the hill looking at mb for a real fight.


I would much prefer the cooldown to any kind of DF effect. Given the fact i can take 2 lots of 2 drugs and then be on my knees for 5 mins as a tank (who has the constitution of a racehorse) kinda makes me feel sorry for the poor spies out there ;)

I have always enjoyed drugs in nc. It adds an extra layer of tactics to weigh up. what drugs to use. when. how many etc. the penalties that come with em are harsh. Adding more penalties wouldnt be fun.

Cooldown all the way.

It will change the way people play spies im sure. If you want to go toe to toe with that cannon weilding super soldier maybe people will instead opt for the PE as he has more defences and more staying power than the spy who should fulfil that role of being further away at range (at least with a rifle ) hint hint :)

[Dribble Joy]

Or maybe spec some resists instead of pumping everything into ath, or use some nanites, or maybe some psi shields like they used to. Or maybe even risk dying like everyone else.

[Cannings]

I'm not sure about the drug flash or the slow i'm not sure that's even needed, however putting a cd on the tool here are a couple of examples:

- A PPU has TSS you know this and still stealth only to be revealed immediately (doubtful considering the pitiful range and amount it ticks on TSS but this in an example) your tool should still be CD for the duration the stealth should have been.

- Restealths, you get into a sticky situation, you stealth try to get away but don't get far enough, stealth runs off and you can immediately stealth again, imo there should be a 5sec cd period here. (time negotiable)

[Dropout]

Or maybe spec some resists instead of pumping everything into ath, or use some nanites, or maybe some psi shields like they used to. Or maybe even risk dying like everyone else.

Re...sists..? What is that? Your not making any sense man!! :D

[William Antrim]

If you're having cooldowns on stealth tools please can they be scaled according to the tool. Like if you want a 5 second cooldown between periods of stealth can it at least vary according to what stealth is used.

IE you can use your obliterator again in 10 seconds or your stealth 3 in 8 seconds, 2 in 5 seconds etc. This way it limits the invulnerability of the spy and gives the "pursuing" char a chance to catch the spy and do damage to him.

Maybe after 3 periods of stealth it locks up for 30 seconds or something. It gives the spy a chance to hit and run then if he can take out his target or it gives the tank/monk etc a chance to flatten him knowing he has a chance to heal while the spy is stealthed.

It is still a war of attrition fighting a permanent stealther but at least the non-stealthing guy now has a chance to survive.

[Cannings]

I agree I think even the 1st two stealth tools could get away with no CD due to their short span, but the 3rd and oblit really should imo

[William Antrim]

I agree I think even the 1st two stealth tools could get away with no CD due to their short span, but the 3rd and oblit really should imo

I kind of thought that but then all you would get is the same issue as currently but with noone using the high end stealth and everyone using the lowest two. At least with a nerf across the board it would give other classes a chance to kill said stealther.

[lindian]

well when you talk about pistol/rifle spies... yep they skill their const into speed. but as a rigger (yeah i know ppl hate that combat style) i am not that fast because i need to survive some shots once I get jumped. so I am slower than other spies. and if the tank aint an idiot it's easy for him to chase me even with weapon drawed. I cant get away in stealth from a good tank. stealth is the part that makes spies unique. ak is the part where it gets to "overpowered" because WoC is only half way implemented. fix ak/woc and you dont need to "fix" stealth. but that is a balancing issue...

btw... I dont get the problem with stealth... yes... you hardly can catch a spy when he/she stealths far away from you but once you get close and a spy gets into stealth it's not that hard to follow him. especially with tanks you got the speed to hunt the spy down while keeping the same pace... (dont forget you still got ppus that can counter stealth)

and zoltan... yes... that would be an option.

[Dribble Joy]

Genuinely interested as to why your droner has resists. Surely if you are caught while droning resists won't matter at all and you want everything in speed at other times.
I'm not a droner so I am intrigued.

[lindian]

Genuinely interested as to why your droner has resists. Surely if you are caught while droning resists won't matter at all and you want everything in speed at other times.
I'm not a droner so I am intrigued.

Well, on the paper it looks like with speed you get away better. But normally you are droning when someone jumps at you. That means you need to realize you are beeing shot, you need to escape from the rigger interface and enter stealth. Let's assume you are quite a fast one. So it's about 3-5 second until stealth (on the edge of beeing realistic). With no resists you wont survive that. Resists give me the extra survivability to even get a chance to get away once I am jumped. And honestly I think I do quite a good job not getting killed (most of the times they get me when I hack).