View Full Version : revert op war system
anyone playing early nc1 will remember the massive aoe based fights cause a defending team had to run from another op. The constant underground whoring and aoe-ing annoys a lot of people, the aoe kills you in case of a long sync and the defending team has a distinct advantage of underground access.
Now i know it's daring but what about a test patch for a few weeks where genreps and undergrounds are unlocked so we can see if that kind of op wars would actually work nowadays.
Arista Barret
17-02-13, 03:00
A barrier placed around the UG to have some cover from an aoe/sync might be a good idea.this way you make a choice of using aoe or placing fighters there.using the barrier to clip would have to be considered.
yes .. I don't like the underground too.
I have to agree. I never liked the underground addition.
Much preferred it when we had to run from a nearby GR in a huge group. You're all forced to fight to the death that way (as it should be) and it gives tactics other than zone-whoring a chance to surface and thrive.
100% agree.
Pestilence
17-02-13, 14:23
Yep, I also think that running was a lot more fun. And please remove the hacknet activation, too. Three hacks and done!
now what do you do if there is no open gr near? wanna run all the way to soliko from el farid or desert racetrack?
Arista Barret
17-02-13, 18:17
Actually removing the UG is a good idea. Im not sure how our tradeskillling would work. To think only about a better fight Im going to agree here. now lets hope the le carebear crowd doesn't ruin another great suggestion with roleplay. Im so sick of being told what is best for the game by le players. the game is dead most of the time. we need changes and suggestions like this to happen.
the UG GR was meant to make defending easier. if you dont like it, dont use it.
Arista Barret
17-02-13, 21:30
the UG GR was meant to make defending easier. if you dont like it, dont use it.
Look...if you don't like killing babies just don't do it. Other people killing babies is ok though. lololol.
the UG GR was meant to make defending easier. if you dont like it, dont use it.
That wasn't the only thing that's being pointed out about the UG. People use it to zone out when they get low on health because they can't be chased into the UG (aka zone-whoring). And I don't see how going to the UG to defend is easier when literally every clan besides RSC likes to aoe the entrance so that we die while in sync.
That wasn't the only thing that's being pointed out about the UG. People use it to zone out when they get low on health because they can't be chased into the UG (aka zone-whoring). And I don't see how going to the UG to defend is easier when literally every clan besides RSC likes to aoe the entrance so that we die while in sync.
Exactly this (except the bit about every team AoE'ing the UG. We have never done that at a single fight).
My point was, it's treated as a zoneline and turns OP fighting into a Plaza 2 fight. Not the all out fight to the death it once was.
Exactly this (except the bit about every team AoE'ing the UG. We have never done that at a single fight).
My point was, it's treated as a zoneline and turns OP fighting into a Plaza 2 fight. Not the all out fight to the death it once was.
Yea sorry didn't mean to say everyone. It's funny we fight so many neutral/allied clans, hardly ever fight actual enemy faction clans. So if your clan doesn't do that then I applaud you guys cause it ruins it for everyone. AoE'ing the entrance of the UG just means "we don't want a fight, we just want the OP"...
And I don't see how going to the UG to defend is easier when literally every clan besides RSC likes to aoe the entrance so that we die while in sync.
Hmm is it really that bad? That is going to make it harder to find a clan to join.. lol..
Hmm is it really that bad? That is going to make it harder to find a clan to join.. lol..
I mean, they know who they are(garbage clans, so it's just a tactic they use because it makes them feel better). But the ones that want a fight won't AoE the UG. I really didn't mean to say everyone, but yeah there are clans that like to do it. I guess it's fun for them to shoot aoe/barrel players who are standing still because they're syncing.
DigestiveBiscui
18-02-13, 02:52
It's not that bad - the cock just has a stick up his arse.
Either remove it or put a timer on it before you can go back down again
It's not that bad - the cock just has a stick up his arse.
Either remove it or put a timer on it before you can go back down again
HA...one of the clans that approves of doing it! lol
I mean, they know who they are(garbage clans, so it's just a tactic they use because it makes them feel better). But the ones that want a fight won't AoE the UG. I really didn't mean to say everyone, but yeah there are clans that like to do it. I guess it's fun for them to shoot aoe/barrel players who are standing still because they're syncing.
Ah fair enough. Had me scared there! ;)
William Antrim
18-02-13, 19:55
Winning a fight with AOE is like sleeping with your sister. Technically you can do it but you feel cheap and dirty after.
Arista Barret
18-02-13, 20:02
Winning a fight with AOE is like sleeping with your sister. Technically you can do it but you feel cheap and dirty after.
To some degree Id find satisfaction on both. But the real point should be a clean fight. Not sync killing.
I really like this idea, my opinion on the subject is you make the hacks longer reset between each level this way clans have time to respond, gr and lose SI and get there. Get rid of rules on GR so that you can regroup at any OP, the current locked GR's doesn't benefit anyone and locks away part of the map.
That's about it, do all that and get us back to the single fight op fights we used to have instead of these 10 deaths monsters.
Doc Holliday
19-02-13, 05:06
Locked grs need to go. I said this before in plenty of other threads. Open the map so you dont know where the enemy is or is coming from. Send out scouts etc to different grs. let the spies run recon/interference missions like the old days or even sniping when the clans are forming to move to what ever op is being fought for.
Much better than GR in and wait to get lamed with aoe.
Hell if i was copping a load of aoe from some people doing this i wouldnt even bother coming up. let em take the op and come down and then fight them. Nice. tightly packed in an underground. Huge clusterfuck of people shooting each other. No one having a clue whos shooting who.
Sounds just like plaza 2 :)
So without the sarcasm im in favour of some changes to this to make things more free flowing. If anyone cares search the thread about locked grs by me and see all the experts that smacked it down saying locking grs is a good idea.
I agree to the timer idea for going back into underground.
We often fight against a clan who comes up from the underground, hit the hackterm for the 60 seconds timer and sync back into underground... This is very annoying and WE are the bad ones :)
Well the only thing i see causing trouble with removing the underground lock is tradeskillers getting in trouble. What you could do is put a lock so people can tradeskill behind that and it only opens for clan. like an appartment. But since it's doors opening and closing like an appartment, it'll not be any use trying to get out of a fight because the enemy can just run in with you.
But that would effectively give tradeskill characters in the clan a good place to hide from the dangers of the wastes.
So:
1. remove genrep lock
2. add a clan door opener to the rear doors of the underground at labs and factories.
3. remove underground genrep
Result: op wars with less zonewhoring and more defend / attack the fortress kinda style fights.
William Antrim
22-02-13, 15:46
IF the tradeskillers want to hide they have their LEs. If they dont have an LE in then they can hire some bodyguards for protection. Lets get some RP back in the game.
IF the tradeskillers want to hide they have their LEs. If they dont have an LE in then they can hire some bodyguards for protection. Lets get some RP back in the game.
Thats the same thing i've always said, but apparently the wasted slot is a too big of a minus for them cause noone can be arsed keeping it in on a tradeskiller. But yeah my sympathies exactly!
WuTangClan
23-02-13, 15:44
I forgot what it was like without Undergrounds. This is a really good thread. This would make Opwars very short compared to how long they were in NC1 (Anyone remember Tezla or Soliko fights, team AOE to knock down the turret defense could last an hour).
Removal of Underground would enhance op fighting and this definitely something that should be looked into by the devs when the time is right for them.
Great thread.
yeah the turrets fucked things up especially those stunlock ones, but with the right balacing you could have turrets help out in defense but not make things unequal. And it'd be a lot more fun actually defending the structure instead of how its done now
Doc Holliday
24-02-13, 17:01
I would leave the underground in and if it really must be considered then remove the gr. However I think its still better that the defending clan gets to defend properly from the underground. A suggestion to alter this would be disable the lock at the hack of a certain layer perhaps.
I definitely would be in agreement with altering the gr rules for the controlling clans. They have too much power. I'm gonna link the other thread I posted so you can see what was written because this needs to be discussed and now finally I think it will be in a suitable manner.
why not just allow a pop up menu, like the one on the car to appear when you GR to an op that allows you to select the UG or the op GR both with no SI for owners of the op? This would split the attacking force if they wanted to aoe both, as most op wars are around 6-9 people it would solve some of the issue I think?
As for the RSC whine, I think its petty to start thrashing around the idea of garbage clans, people are not knocking RSC right now even though they:
- had several players banned for cheating
- used to intentionally clip in op wars when it was possible
- have ninjaed a huge number of ops due to 90% of American players being in one clan (whats with that?) sometimes there are 10ish RSC on when all the euro clans have 2 or 3 and then you guys complain there is no one to fight, spread the American love to the other clans, It never used to be like that, I miss my American buddies!
anyways, please don't try and act high and mighty. Every clan has good and bad people in my opinion; I like some guys in RSC and some I don't, to condemn multiple clans of people you don't know as garbage is just ridiculous.
TL;dr If there is a gameplay mechanic/feature available to help you win a fight, at some point or another people are going to use it, whether its clipping, AoEing the UG, zone whoring, scouting with LE'd players, defending in hacknet, zone crashing, ppu zerging etc, people will do it unless it is hard coded out.
As for the RSC whine, I think its petty to start thrashing around the idea of garbage clans, people are not knocking RSC right now even though they:
- had several players banned for cheating
- used to intentionally clip in op wars when it was possible
- have ninjaed a huge number of ops due to 90% of American players being in one clan (whats with that?) sometimes there are 10ish RSC on when all the euro clans have 2 or 3 and then you guys complain there is no one to fight, spread the American love to the other clans, It never used to be like that, I miss my American buddies!
anyways, please don't try and act high and mighty. Every clan has good and bad people in my opinion; I like some guys in RSC and some I don't, to condemn multiple clans of people you don't know as garbage is just ridiculous.
This is a brainport thread, not a boo boo whine whine about evil RSC thread. So kindly either contribute positively or fuck off thanks.
William Antrim
25-02-13, 00:42
This is a brainport thread, not a boo boo whine whine about evil RSC thread. So kindly either contribute positively or fuck off thanks.
Quoted for truth.
I read the first paragraph of that post and thought the guy had an idea. Then I got to the rest and tuned out.
As for the topic. Yes I would love to go back to the old school Op wars. One hacker also would be awesome IMO. Three hackers is bs. One hacker should be able to do all 3.
Doc Holliday
26-02-13, 06:17
One hacker also would be awesome IMO. Three hackers is bs. One hacker should be able to do all 3.
EITHER FIGHT!!! OR HACK!!! Yes. agreed.
Still think they should remove the option to lock grs.
Op wars would last longer. gone are the days of the 6 hour epics battles of nc1 :(
3 hacking rounds by 2 alternating hackers, no HN action needed and a 5 minutes timer between each hack. and underground unchanged, as it is today, to balance the attackers' advantage of initiative.
No sorry we cannot go back to one person to hack a whole op.
demonssword
26-02-13, 14:50
Personally i would say a few things could be done to "solve" the underground issues.
Alot seem to complain that people can just dive in and out so once they take 1/2 health they can just pop in, heal up and pop out. This of course means in small fights what in most cases have few apu or tank who are spamming the underground, or at least STD dont tend to. Then you have a endless supply for the defending clan to pour out and when they are hurt or buffs running can just pop back in to safety.
My 2 ideas involving this could be either
Idea 1) On entering or leaving a UG you get a debuff that prevents you from either zoning back in or out of the UG (depending on what seems best) If its you get the buff on going in then you cant exit for a while (maybe 2-5 mins). This stops people using it as a safespot to rebuff and heal up. OR if its on leaving, this means that people will have to stay out and fight for say 5mins before re-entering combat.
Idea 2) On layer 1 or maybe 2 of an op being hacked the underground door becomes unlocked. I know this is a bit scary for those who dont want people flooding in to their undergrounds. BUT in the same way as some above said that people barrel their underground so we cant get out. If you are that threatened and need a min to recover, you could barrel the underground from the inside to kill anyone comming in while you get ready to pop out.
A modification on this idea would be having a terminal in hacknet itself what if you are willing to run a hacknet char to their op you could press a button or kill some clan allied mobs in there drop codebreakers to open the door for a limited amount of time. This may also promote people actually having several hacknet chars who have to fight in hacknet to defend the terminals, rather than the normal what happens now of a hacknet char being stationed nearby and just ports in and presses the button before anyone can see him, so making defending in hacknet pointless.
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NEXT on the agenda
People barrel my underground and we die zoning out.
Clear option for this would be a bit of a map change that maybe you have the central door as you do now, but maybe have 1-2 other doors in zone that you can exit from (probably not enter from though otherwise the problems above become worse). This means you can have multiple exits, so even with the bigger groups putting 6 barrelers on 1 door contantly, will they have 18 barrels to be able to cover 3 doors if they are far enough apart.
In most cases an easy 2nd door would be where the normal GR is for the zone, just have an exit hole there. The other one could be a bit more remote or out the way if you wanted.
William Antrim
26-02-13, 17:13
dont forget when making suggestions that these ideas do have to be coded in if theyre to be taken seriously. Its all good posting up a wish list but you have to think about what is doable with the current game.
Well it was perfectly doable in old nc1 to have op wars not suck ass like they do now.
PVP = fun
Zonewhoring of any kind = no fun
so you just have to find a way to promote endgame pvp without the zonewhoring.
Arista Barret
26-02-13, 23:44
Why can't we enjoy both instead of assume we all have the same personal preference? We need to welcome everyone to pvp. not just clan wars and wasteland ganking. and yes i said ganking....wasteland pvp is not top level pvp. toe to toe drugged to fuck with no stops is unmatched imo for pure pvp.
demonssword
27-02-13, 04:04
dont forget when making suggestions that these ideas do have to be coded in if theyre to be taken seriously. Its all good posting up a wish list but you have to think about what is doable with the current game.
Well my Idea 1 would work. They have a system in place at the moment that blocks people going into the underground, so if they expand it to include "no entry if X buff/debuff is on you."
Idea 2 also could work with the current system. Currently the lock on the door is controlled by clan members setting rights on a term. Having an override click in hacknet shouldnt be to hard to code, though having it timed so that it worked for X ammount of time might be hard. Also somehow coding it to not allow someone to just be sitting at an RN term and clicking it back to clan only again might be a pain.
Personally i think the idea of having a door that is locked so no one can get in or out that you dont want to is stupid when the guys who own it can freely move in and out whenever they want. Surely the door is either open or closed, not magically enchanted that only people with the right badge on can phase through it while it simultaniously blocks another person trying to walk through as well.
Having multiple underground exits though again is clearly able to be done as all they need to do is add 1-2 more enter/exit portals to each underground and 1-2 more enter/exits somewhere in zone linked to them.
I have to agree. I never liked the underground addition.
Much preferred it when we had to run from a nearby GR in a huge group. You're all forced to fight to the death that way (as it should be) and it gives tactics other than zone-whoring a chance to surface and thrive.
100% agree.
While this was so much fun, trying to intercept the defender/reinforcements coming from near by zones, with the current GR rules system that is in place, it would make it somewhat difficult or impossible to replicate the old way. Ah possible, solution is more random GR's about the wasteland. Like at the top of a random tower, or in those concrete hillside structures that largely go unused in the mountain areas.
Should be easy enough to disable underground gr and / or lock in a testserver patch so everyone can test the difference it makes to op wars.
This subejct has been discussed while I went on holidays and it seems I missed the discussion. The recent posts poped it into my perception, so here are my thoughts.
First some of you want to get rid of the UG cause you don't want your prey syncing and healing, when you think you could have killed it on the other hand you don't want to aoe the UG cause your all in for a real fight.
Interesting. I think syncing down the UG makes a fight longer and that is what you all want, at least it seems to be.
And there should be a difference between defending and attacking. Having a shelter where you can hide, suits perfect for defending. While the defenders hide, you can hack. If you succed the defenderes have nowhere to hide. Perfect play situation. As to say, there is a complaint when your UG is under aoe attack and then you refuse to come from a different GR, but it's asked to remove the UG to establish such a situation. You have it right there.
So I'm clearly against the removal of the UG. There are tactics to deal with the different situations.
It even makes it possible that not so good players could have some fun since they can sync out and don't die in the first 30 secs, cause they're attacked first and go down fast.
And if you want a fight without outpost hacking and without Underground, ask the other clans for a fun fight in a OP who belongs neither.
I have something to add here. I can't stand the term zone whoring. And I think that is the main reason the most ppl here agreed with removing the UG. I assume also you all count towards the more skilled part of the PvP playerbase. You complain that you don't get the kill you thought you would get, cause someone makes it into safety. So you're not in for a fair fight, your in for a "I have killed him." You think it's frustrating. But it seems you didn't consider the other side there are players who want to learn PvP, to get better, who want to try, and not lie on the ground everytime, cause they don't stand a chance. So don't use the term "zone whoring" or else I see me forced to comment with "kill whining" every time I read about it.
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