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Alduin
15-02-13, 00:48
Cheers runners,

feel free to discuss the current testserver patch here. The corresponding patch notes may be found here (http://forum.neocron-game.com/showthread.php?147471-T-181-PTS-Patch-Note).

Slauncha,
Alduin

L0KI
15-02-13, 00:52
Just throwing this out there...

This is definitely a step in the right direction to prevent the almighty LE advantage. I look forward to testing these changes tomorrow.

Faid
15-02-13, 01:41
Oh man this is great! You're telling me Un-le'd people can now blow up le'd peoples vehicles and they can't even defend themselves :) I can't wait to go out to all the popular spots and grief the shit outta all those lowly LE'd scum who are just trying to level. This is seriously gonna be fun, I can't tell you how many times Ive been out in the wastes and I come accross an LE'd guy leveling and I thought to myself "I wish there were some way I could just kill this noob, or at least make him suffer in some way" Now I can :) Thankyou Devs for this new gift I shall cherish it.

nEo-1664
15-02-13, 02:04
From the quick play this evening... the hacknet mobs are doing damage, BUT for a 48/48 * mob, my character was not struggling in the slightest for health. I need to check on it more, but might need to increase the mob damage of the hacknet mobs. I need to have a mess about in another factions DB first though ;)

braydagner
15-02-13, 04:11
I mean this in the most helpful way that a runner can comment on a patch, but that is the wrongest direction to go with solving that bug. LE'd Rhinos can't even return fire? What was the thought behind this decision? Because the way I see it, it is going to make leveling for new runners (who keep their LE in longer) a whole lot slower and keep the population of new runners down. If you are going in this direction, have vehicles able to attack each other regardless of LE status. That is literally the only way to keep it fair. The way it is in 181 is the most unbalanced thing I have ever seen in a game.

I am not bitching, just criticizing a 'fix' that seems to unbalance a bug that already exists.

hatmankh
15-02-13, 04:24
It was probably the easiest/quickest way to "fix" the bug.

Kame
15-02-13, 04:26
I like the vehicle fix. If you want to defend yourself, take out the LE and bust back.

hatmankh
15-02-13, 05:01
Oh I like it too, I love shooting defenseless people, its what they deserve for being so late to the party or having lives outside the game so they still aren't capped on all their characters. It's just so good that this "fix" has happened after I got to level all my characters up and amass a collection of tech parts and rares, too bad for the suckers that are still levelling up or part hunting and keep their LEs in. (or don't keep it in, makes no difference, if they're still levelling they're easy pickings either way.)

It's open season on those pussies! Hahahaha, they can't even shoot back.

gstyle40
15-02-13, 05:59
wow.....just....wow :/ oh well, seeing that i level most my guys rhinoing guess i wont be leveling anymore :/ only have 1 capped char and i use him to level my tradeskillers so whats the point of me even playing anymore? i work 12-14 hours a day 6 days a week so fuck me i guess......best patch yet guys, keep up the good work! one carebear down, rest of the non op fighting server to go :/

Doc Holliday
15-02-13, 06:00
its not like a huge percentage of people use the vehicles. They use a rhino sometimes but not so often. most people know your still better on foot with range due to damage at higher levels.

Why all the QQ. stops LE rhino thieves taking peoples loot with no blow back.

braydagner
15-02-13, 06:09
stops LE rhino thieves taking peoples loot with no blow back.
It's because of the unbalancedness of the patch itself. They could easy say all vehicles can shoot all vehicles regardless of LE, but they chose this route, and from everyone I am hearing from, that is the problem.

Faid
15-02-13, 06:25
Last I checked if you could shoot and damage something and it couldn't damage you back thats an exploit. I guess the Devs are promoting this particular exploit. Why stop at vehicles? Why not make it possible for UN-LE'd people to shoot and damage LE'd people and keep so the LE cant shoot back. Makes sense with this line of thinking, unless you guys can't figure out how to fix the initial bug, then this makes perfect sense. It's not a bug it's a feature :)

flib
15-02-13, 06:30
@Whiners: Typical Neocron community reaction to a Test Server patch. :rolleyes:

While I do feel that this is a positive change, it's a change on the Test Server, so it's not necessarily going to make it to retail or even be permanent if it does.
If you don't like it, then maybe try typing out something constructive instead of just crying.

I, for one, welcome this change, as it shows that not only are the volunteers able to stomp out bugs, but are willing to make the bold gameplay-altering decisions necessary to make Neocron great again.

Remember: just because a change is disadvantageous to you does not make it a bad or wrong choice. (Ex: drone fixes)

braydagner
15-02-13, 06:42
@Whiners: Typical Neocron community reaction to a Test Server patch. :rolleyes:
Define: Feedback (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/feedback?s=t)

gstyle40
15-02-13, 06:49
@Whiners: Typical Neocron community reaction to a Test Server patch. :rolleyes:

While I do feel that this is a positive change, it's a change on the Test Server, so it's not necessarily going to make it to retail or even be permanent if it does.
If you don't like it, then maybe try typing out something constructive instead of just crying.

I, for one, welcome this change, as it shows that not only are the volunteers able to stomp out bugs, but are willing to make the bold gameplay-altering decisions necessary to make Neocron great again.

Remember: just because a change is disadvantageous to you does not make it a bad or wrong choice. (Ex: drone fixes)

maybe one should follow his own advise. theres nothing constructive in your post, its all flame with cuddos to the devs lol. The drone fix was needed because 90% of the server actually used drones and benefited from them. as doc said earlier its a very small percentage of people who actually use vehicles, so this patch only affects a small percentage of people who use them, therefore this patch wasnt to fix a big problem, it was more to stop like 2 people on the server from using the game mechs to their advantage blocking loot.

Deus Ex Machina
15-02-13, 07:08
Hmm, Im not that satisfied with that vehicle fix, but I guess the developers aren't too.
From that change I would say LEd Vehicles were exploited too much to let that state continue. - I think I read some combination of LE and Non LE in a vehicle could attack other players before, but the attacked could not defend himself? - Now its the other way around, I guess thats more important, and LE Drivers blocking loot is an additional story.

Change in gameplay:
- LE Runners are very discouraged from using vehicles
- Non LE Runners cannot be killed anymore with vehicles and no fear of retaliation
- LE Runners can still level

So, not really a very good fix for many of those LEs out there, but fixing more than it opens up i guess.

And P.S: I am sure if someone has an easy to implement idea how to fix this another way, I am sure the Devs would at least listen. Of course that would also mean to accept their feedback when they say "not doable", "we don't want it that way", ... and whatever.

Faid
15-02-13, 07:18
How about this, make it the way it was before it got bugged on Titan. LE'd people can't shoot anyone. Un-LE'd people can only shoot other Un-LE'd people/vehicles. I don't understand why this is so hard of a concept to understand. Unless the Devs can't figure out how to get it back to this point, in which case I can see why they're trying to put a positive spin on this new development. So I guess I'll hop on the TS and test out how best to blowup LE'd peoples vehicles while they can't even shoot me back...

Disturbed21
15-02-13, 07:37
The logical fix to LE'd vehicles would simply be to match all other rules involving LE and no-LE interaction, no? Basically, an LE'd gunner shouldn't be able to harm other vehicles/players and to not be harmed at all by other vehicles/players, LE or no-LE. That doesn't appear to be possible or it's exploitable? Or it's a shift in position on the LE itself...

Anyway, I would urge the devs to make absolutely sure there is some way of informing the players that even if they are LE'd, other players can damage their vehicles with other vehicles. I realize it has been this way for awhile, yet I still see people in-game that were not aware of this, until someone blows up their shiny new ride that is. Not really getting more people into vehicles this way, which I think is a part of NC over looked, save the quad.

With that said, can you please look at the reqs on the vehicles and put them back to what they used to be? I miss my HC driving PE :( And really don't understand why the reqs were changed as dramatically as they were...

Doc Holliday
15-02-13, 08:24
As it was you could easily have an le guy and a non le gunner driving around together lookin for ganking targets. When the you found one the driver simply needs to hop out. Boom target gets killed. The driver hops back in and the le protects the vehicle from retaliation.

Now that is fixed. This is a good thing.

The only further change to this is I would suggest making it so the le is disabled while in the vehicle. That at least means the gunner can shoot back. It's an option. Failing that the gunner has to remove the le.

Maybe grow some balls while he's there. ;-)

Dropout
15-02-13, 10:49
Sweet! This is going to be like ganking 0/2's!
.....

netster
15-02-13, 11:37
Oh sweet. Fixing without a fix of a > half a year problem.

Jodo
15-02-13, 12:06
So a level 5 - 20 noob can be travelling from NC to MB (or vice versa) and have his Quad (perhaps even a hard earned and purchased chaincraft) blown up from underneath him leaving him stranded in the wastes?

Or an unLE'd vehicle can camp over an LE'd kill and wait to open it up? This switches a problem from one group of players to another and creates further problems.

I cannot overstate what a ridiculous idea this is.

I'm an advocate of implementing ideas to encourage LE removal but this is not how to do it. This is a punishment and legalised griefing, nothing less.

Powerpunsh
15-02-13, 14:08
I this case i would differ between "passive" and "active" Vehicles which means only a speedbike or a quad without any shoot ability is not able to get blown up by non le runners. Rhinos and other shooting vehicles can BUT vehicleuser's should be able to shoot back to devend their property.
On the otherhand i would just say dont give le'd runners access to "active" vehicles. Problem solved. If Le'd runners want to go hunting with a rhino or something there is always be a non le runner for spawn and sit in required.

Alduin
15-02-13, 14:35
To clarify this again a quote from the patchnotes: the law enforcer only protects the runner himself, not his belongings! And it also makes sure the runner obeys the law. It is as simple as that.

And from a fairplay point of view: consider led players destroying other peoples vehicles: non-led players have no real means to punish those led runners by just killing them, like you would do with non-led runners. Nevertheless, in case you feel uncomfortable with this change, make a decent, well thought- and layed-out proposal and post it here or send it in, we are always open to suggestions.

Also remember, that this is only a part of what will make it into R#181, this is a testerver patch. Especially gameplay mechanic changes will have to be tested as thoroughly as possible. To concentrate on a single gameplay change at once, all gameplay wise changes made with R#181 will be pushed to Vedeena bit by bit.

Sophie
15-02-13, 14:49
Maybe a solution introducing a "PvP-Flag" for Vehicles:

Non-LEd Vehicle: A vehicle flagged for Non-LEd Players

LEd Vehicle: A vehicle flagged for LEd Players

Rules:
- LE can enter LE-Vehicle
- Non-LE can enter Non-LE Vehicle
- LE cannot enter Non-LE Vehicle
- Non-LE cannot enter LE-Vehicle


The activation can be done automaticaly:
Because a Non-LEd player cannont enter LE-Vehicle, it makes no sense for him to be able to activate LEd mode and vice versa.

Activation and Deactivation of Flag:
- automaticlay decided on playerstatus
- Non-LEd player spwans Non-LE Vehicle
- LEd player spawns LE Vehicle

William Antrim
15-02-13, 14:59
I would like to make a suggestion.

I have got my coffee and I have read through the criticisms slowly and carefully. I cannot believe I am the only person who thought of this however.

Please can we make vehicles almost invincible to regular weapons, but damageable. In the real world currently (from experience) we have large vehicles engaged on military exercises and our governments are doing all they can to protect those vehicles from small arms fire. That said small arms fire DOES still damage and on occasion wound the people inside.

However at the same time we ALSO have specifically designed ANTI-Vehicular weapon systems. These are ALSO in nc. They have been since forever.

Is it at all possible to make these weapons and more particularly their ammo work in the correct way? IE they do little to no damage to a player but they can do a LARGE amount of damage to a vehicle.

Due to the most popular vehicle for levelling being a rhino how about a full clip of rockets (4 I think) would destroy a full health rhino. Splash damage would catch and wound (possibly severely) the repairer if he was in range. Just like in the real world.

Other vehicles would have proportional damage too. One hit would not kill any vehicle but at most do 50% damage perhaps? (to quads etc and other light vehicles?) This would give the runner a chance to escape if he felt the need and also give the shooter a chance to carry out his attack.

The regular and rare guns would still be able to hit and wound/damage vehicles don't forget. I am not saying completely invincible but at the same time the vehicle driver needs to have the ability to be able to drive away and avoid said damage, LE'd or not.

this would cover ground vehicles at least. Heavy armour for tanks and the rest.

Air Vehicles - Would have significantly lower armour compared to ground vehicles. Small arms would damage them as they're lighter and less armoured. However anti air weapons are currently a nightmare to use. If you can get a hit they should do significant damage to the vehicle. Small arms should still be able to score hits and damage the vehicle though - self defence etc.


Any thoughts?

Drachenpaladin
15-02-13, 15:12
That would finally put the Anti-Vehicle and Anti Air Rocket Launcher to use... i'd appreciate if those weapons could lock-on their targets. They would of course not lock on anything else then vehicles.
also they should feature a Armor Piercing Missile, with a shaped charge. Very little AoE damage but high Vehicular damage.

Thus those Anti Vehicle weapons would become barely usable against soft targets but usefull against hard targets.

Dropout
15-02-13, 16:07
Snip
Love the idea!
Or maybe just make vehicles have low resists to force or something? That way other classes than HC tanks can damage vehicles aswell ;)

Cannings
15-02-13, 16:50
I'm sorry but I disagree with this point, considering that only tanks can get the anti tank weapons. Which used to already work as extra damage on vehicles (no idea if that has changed since i've been gone)

If you make tanks/vehicles immune or very strong against weapon dmg you'll just end up seeing lots of ganks with rhino's that no one can do anything about unless you happen to have the right class with the right weapon you're dead.

I'm sure i'm not the only one but I like the idea that has been put in by the dev's there should be an element of risk for all players in this world, okay you want to keep your LE in and be safe fair enough but if you want to go into this raw unsafe world you have to make considerations, like the fact you may lose your vehicle. Yep as with every patch, change and miniscule comment made by DEV's you will get the people that this directly affects their little safe zone of the world and upsets their earning by stopping their ability to farm without penalty or risk who will kick off and say that this is unfair and unreasonable but I think from a neutral standpoint considering the parameters of what the game can do this is the best solution.

As i've said in previous threads there are two parts to the game, capping your character and equipping your character. While I feel the LE is justified for the initial part of this I don't feel that it should be the be safe while you farm a shit load of techs to make weapons and sell. But I don't wanna go off topic and bring this back to the LE arguement all over again.

gstyle40
15-02-13, 17:16
To clarify this again a quote from the patchnotes: the law enforcer only protects the runner himself, not his belongings! And it also makes sure the runner obeys the law. It is as simple as that.

so what your are saying is u are le'd and u get into a vehicle, your vehicle can get blown up by any non le'd person no matter the circumstance. and this is intended. so what i gather from this is we the dev team couldnt fix the bug so we felt this was the most natural step.


And from a fairplay point of view: consider led players destroying other peoples vehicles: non-led players have no real means to punish those led runners by just killing them, like you would do with non-led runners.

now i know that im NOT on a whole lot anymore but in all honesty ive never seen this happen (and if it does happen, how come fraps, screenshots, and emails to kk arent getting these exploiters warned and banned?). now if u ask me how many times my rhino has been blown up by by members from RSC, i would need both hands to count. it seems to me like you guys are turning the molehill into a mountain. fix the bug, or make it fair for EVERYONE as it is now vhc on vhc is fairgame. after the patch le'd players who use vhc to level and farm are just screwed, and the devs are sayin if u dont like it, take out the le. thats complete bs

da_fu$e
15-02-13, 17:34
LE carebare QQ...i like the patch!


EDIT: Titan need speedcap!

gstyle40
15-02-13, 17:36
I'm sure i'm not the only one but I like the idea that has been put in by the dev's there should be an element of risk for all players in this world, okay you want to keep your LE in and be safe fair enough but if you want to go into this raw unsafe world you have to make considerations, like the fact you may lose your vehicle.

u made some nice statements in your post, but i wanted to speak on this part a lil bit :D

the whole idea of the le is to keep u safe from other players. safe from players yes, safe from the environment? not at all. there is always the chance u can die from the environment, but if im le'd i shouldnt have to worry about other players otherwise get rid of the le all together its now useless lol

when is the last time u actually went out in a rhino firemobbing? because there is a great chance u will loose your rhino everytime w/o having to worry about griefers. a grim persy will kill your rhino so fast it will make your head spin and forget about the invisible damage that happens lol. i cant tell u how many times i had to have the gunner jump out because the rhino is taking too much damage so i can rep. and yes im passionate about this because this is all i do in nc. not once have i ever blocked someones loot. i go places where most people dont go and level alone. that much wont change but now i cant even drive thru places like cycrow (which i usually dont anyways) because every un le'd person in those greifer clans will just shoot to see it blow up then laugh at u on ooc. but i digress.....now im done lol

Gunshifty
15-02-13, 17:40
How about this, make it the way it was before it got bugged on Titan. LE'd people can't shoot anyone. Un-LE'd people can only shoot other Un-LE'd people/vehicles. I don't understand why this is so hard of a concept to understand. Unless the Devs can't figure out how to get it back to this point, in which case I can see why they're trying to put a positive spin on this new development. So I guess I'll hop on the TS and test out how best to blowup LE'd peoples vehicles while they can't even shoot me back...


This is what I vote for. To me, this makes the most logical sense.

If you would like it nicely laid out, this is what I think:

-Having an LE in makes it so that you cannot shoot anyone whether it's an LE'd player or Non-LE'd player (this same exact thing applies to vehicles). Note: This is how the game is currently slated, Any person with an LE in their head can not deal any damage to those who are LE'd and Non-LE'd.
-Having NO LE in makes it so that you can shoot only Non-LE'd players, like it is currently in PvP guidelines (this same exact thing applies to vehicles).

To clarify: the law enforcer protects the runner himself (including his belongings, i mean why should someone who PvE's lose his vehicle to someone who indicates they wanted to PvP- since they removed their LE)! And it also makes sure the runner obeys the law. Which means having no LE in does not protect you from anything (the basic concept of Law Enforcer being taken out means you are essentially "law-less" or for humorous terms: lawless). It is as simple as that.

Cannings
15-02-13, 18:16
u made some nice statements in your post, but i wanted to speak on this part a lil bit :D

the whole idea of the le is to keep u safe from other players. safe from players yes, safe from the environment? not at all. there is always the chance u can die from the environment, but if im le'd i shouldnt have to worry about other players otherwise get rid of the le all together its now useless lol

when is the last time u actually went out in a rhino firemobbing? because there is a great chance u will loose your rhino everytime w/o having to worry about griefers. a grim persy will kill your rhino so fast it will make your head spin and forget about the invisible damage that happens lol. i cant tell u how many times i had to have the gunner jump out because the rhino is taking too much damage so i can rep. and yes im passionate about this because this is all i do in nc. not once have i ever blocked someones loot. i go places where most people dont go and level alone. that much wont change but now i cant even drive thru places like cycrow (which i usually dont anyways) because every un le'd person in those greifer clans will just shoot to see it blow up then laugh at u on ooc. but i digress.....now im done lol

I have done firemob farming with rhino's before I know exactly what it's like, and tbh it doesn't really matter if you don't drive over corpses or shoot other peoples vehicles this isn't a patch directly aimed at you, its aimed at levelling the game out which is what needs to happen in so many area's a bit at a time.

Yes I can tell you are taking this pretty personally

And to the first point, the LE is to protect YOU from getting killed from other players, it still does that. In a cyberpunk world these bad guys can rob you and not kill you, unlike other non protected players that can rob and kill them

Jodo
15-02-13, 18:21
To clarify this again a quote from the patchnotes: the law enforcer only protects the runner himself, not his belongings! And it also makes sure the runner obeys the law. It is as simple as that.

To clarify myself, this is a terrible vastly unbalanced idea.

I would like to hire Skullz to repeatedly gank whoever spouted this arse-gravy.

Lucas Kell
15-02-13, 19:33
This sounds to me like a way of opening the game up to griefers with no real gain to the gameplay as a whole.
Simply make it so if the owner of a vehicle has an LE, noone can enter it without an LE. That way, you solve the combat issues of LE vehicles with non-LE gunners, and you also add another layer of separation to LE players and non-LE players.

This should encourage more players to remove the LE, which I support as it brings back the risk element into the game.

The current change will just mean LE players aren't allowed vehicles except the quad and NEXT epic as griefers will make it thier mission to destroy the, which to me just alienates new players even more.

Edit: Just to clarify, this really will mean LE players will not be allowed vehicles, since there is no way a non-LE player would leave the LE player alone. The only reason non-LE players don't constantly attack each other is the risk of possibly losing the fight. What you are saying here is "if a non-LE player meets an LE player levelling with a vehicle, the non-LE player has a 100% risk free attack available to them".
Hardly fair eh? This is simply a way of punishing LE players, so why not just have the LE drop out at */30

Naim
15-02-13, 19:41
Look at the end of the line. The result will be that nobody will buy a rhino. People wont use vehicles anymore.
Gamedesign punishes you for using a vehicle.

Be consequent and remove the LE, set a limit like level 10 or just let it as it is.

edit: Wth the time, when I think about it, the idea that the LE only protects the runner himself isnt that bad as I thought in the first place. Reason is this:I have come to the perfect solution for our problem.

Noobs love the vehicles of neocron. Just prohibit LE-Runners from using a vehicle. That motivates them to take the chip out. The gameplay wont change as no LE-player would use his vehicle with patch 181.
The thing with 181 is that is communicates a negative thing: LE-Vehicles can be destroyed but cant shoot back.
Make it positive and say that only Non-LE runners are allowed to pull vehicles.
The result will be the same but the effect will be totalyl different.

Lucas Kell
15-02-13, 19:55
Nevertheless, in case you feel uncomfortable with this change, make a decent, well thought- and layed-out proposal and post it here or send it in, we are always open to suggestions.
I present the following proposal:

Combat mecahnics around vehicles belonging to players with and without Law Enforcers are broken. To prevent griefing from any side, and at the same time promote fair play, I offer the following solution.

For this I will use the follow shorthand:
Vu = Vehicles without Law Enforced Status
Vle = Vehicles with Law Enforced Status
Pu = Players without Law Enforced Status
Ple = Players with Law Enforced Status

Vehicle combat status should be tied to the owners Law Enforcement status, (that is the registered keepers status not the currently active driver)

The following rules are for the ability to enter a vehicle in any way:
Vle may not be entered at any time by a Pu
Vu may not be entered at any time by a Ple

Law Enforcement status for vehicles should work in the same way as Law Enforcement status for players, so:
Vu and Pu can fight and damage each other, but may not fight and damage Vle or Ple
Vle and Ple cannot fight or damage any player or vehicle

Dribble Joy
15-02-13, 19:57
If you can't kill an LEed vehicle, what's there to prevent a clan using LEed rhinos to block the entrances to an OP? Especially if there's an unLEed gunner in it....

P.S. Skulls will gladly take any contract to kill GMs. One MC5 chip per dog tag.

Lucas Kell
15-02-13, 20:11
If you can't kill an LEed vehicle, what's there to prevent a clan using LEed rhinos to block the entrances to an OP? Especially if there's an unLEed gunner in it.....
Make it so you can run through LE vehicles. This will stop them blocking anywhere. lol
OK so that could be an issue that needs to be addressed. It's a much smaller issue than "New players aren't allowed vehicles", since running anywhere is an absolute mission in NC.

It could be made so that if an LE driver enters a bounding sphere around OP entrance, it displays a "Warning! Entering Combat Area - Your vehicle will be vulnerable to attacks in 10 seconds.

Then if you don't get out of the OP area, your vehicles can be destroyed. Make this area or a moderate size to prevent it being too small to worry about. Do the same around genereps.

Gunshifty
15-02-13, 20:28
Make it so you can run through LE vehicles. This will stop them blocking anywhere. lol
OK so that could be an issue that needs to be addressed. It's a much smaller issue than "New players aren't allowed vehicles", since running anywhere is an absolute mission in NC.

It could be made so that if an LE driver enters a bounding sphere around OP entrance, it displays a "Warning! Entering Combat Area - Your vehicle will be vulnerable to attacks in 10 seconds.

Then if you don't get out of the OP area, your vehicles can be destroyed. Make this area or a moderate size to prevent it being too small to worry about. Do the same around genereps.

Here is a simpler solution, make all rhinos vulnerable being attacked in places with outposts, regardless of LE/Non-LE'd owner. That way no tactics like blocking entrances and other crappy bs will work. Not to mention if people are bringing a rhino to an op fight, they better damn well be presented the risk of having it shot to hell.

Kame
15-02-13, 20:32
Guys stop, breathe, and think for a minute or two about the following :

Un-LEd can already blow a LEd vehicle, so nothing changes from the current setting.

What changes though, is that LEd gunner can no longer damage anything, be that LEd or non-LEd vehicle, which they currently can do.

From any perspective, LEd gunner damaging anything player owned/operated was a major flaw.

William Antrim
15-02-13, 20:44
Also bear in mind the LE'd driver can just drive off!!! Who would have thought!!!!

braydagner
16-02-13, 00:11
Guys stop, breathe, and think for a minute or two about the following :

Un-LEd can already blow a LEd vehicle, so nothing changes from the current setting.

What changes though, is that LEd gunner can no longer damage anything, be that LEd or non-LEd vehicle, which they currently can do.

From any perspective, LEd gunner damaging anything player owned/operated was a major flaw.
Just as unLE'd able to damage LE'd is a major flaw, just an apparent acceptable one.

Just make all vehicles able to attack all vehicles regardless of LE status. This is the only logical course of action to correct the bug that is there.

The MAJOR flaw in this patch is that an LE'd vehicle can not defend itself and is forced to sit there and be destroyed. It's just senseless and an affront to this so-called 'fair play' of which people speak. It doesn't make the playing field level in any way, shape, or form. It just seems to appease the people that constantly attack the LE (which is getting really old, and that horse has been long since dead).

The people who like how this patch is set up are probably the same people that go around killing 0/2's and tradeskillers then mock them in HELP and OOC for being bad.

Faid
16-02-13, 00:35
Guys stop, breathe, and think for a minute or two about the following :

Un-LEd can already blow a LEd vehicle, so nothing changes from the current setting.

Everything changes from the current setting. The way it is now, only A Vehicle gunner could damage an LE'd vehicle. With the new patch, anyone UN-LE'd with any weapon at all can damage LE'd Vehicles. It's much easier to blow up a vehicle with a Creed than shooting at it from a Rhino. This patch is ridiculous.

Dribble Joy
16-02-13, 01:51
Non-LEed players run this risk all the time. Why does making this change kill the number of vehicles? I thought the community wanted less reasons to remain LEed.

(Yes, the viability of vehicles needs to be looked at, but that is a separate discussion.)

hatmankh
16-02-13, 03:18
Less reasons to remain LE'd, this is fine, we can have a discussion on this.

Making the LE useless for vehicles? That's not less reasons that's completely defeating the purpose of having the LE to begin with. I'd honestly rather they just removed the LE from the game entirely than this, I'm not even joking.


Last I checked if you could shoot and damage something and it couldn't damage you back thats an exploit. I guess the Devs are promoting this particular exploit. Why stop at vehicles? Why not make it possible for UN-LE'd people to shoot and damage LE'd people and keep so the LE cant shoot back. Makes sense with this line of thinking, unless you guys can't figure out how to fix the initial bug, then this makes perfect sense. It's not a bug it's a feature :)

This. Sums it up perfectly.

Doc Holliday
16-02-13, 05:22
This is what I vote for. To me, this makes the most logical sense.

If you would like it nicely laid out, this is what I think:

-Having an LE in makes it so that you cannot shoot anyone whether it's an LE'd player or Non-LE'd player (this same exact thing applies to vehicles). Note: This is how the game is currently slated, Any person with an LE in their head can not deal any damage to those who are LE'd and Non-LE'd.
-Having NO LE in makes it so that you can shoot only Non-LE'd players, like it is currently in PvP guidelines (this same exact thing applies to vehicles).

To clarify: the law enforcer protects the runner himself (including his belongings, i mean why should someone who PvE's lose his vehicle to someone who indicates they wanted to PvP- since they removed their LE)! And it also makes sure the runner obeys the law. Which means having no LE in does not protect you from anything (the basic concept of Law Enforcer being taken out means you are essentially "law-less" or for humorous terms: lawless). It is as simple as that.


Go back and read my post. The one about the LE driver and Non LE Gunner going for a drive.

hatmankh
16-02-13, 09:12
What we need is something similar to what we got with PPUs. LE'd players can't get in a vehicle with non-LE'd and vice versa, LE protects against players, same as it does on foot.

The line about "LE doesn't protect your belongings" is bullshit, by this logic, the LE only protects your naked body so non-LE'd players should be able to shoot LE'd players and ruin all their armour but do no damage to their health. We should also be able to steal everything from LE'd players except their implants via a new option in the right click menu, hey "The LE doesn't protect a runner's belongings".

L0KI
16-02-13, 11:43
One of the main reasons I am so happy with this patch :

LE'd players that drive over the corpses of Grims until the loot becomes theirs. There are plenty of them around, and they all need their vehicles destroyed.

Jodo
16-02-13, 12:27
One of the main reasons I am so happy with this patch :

LE'd players that drive over the corpses of Grims until the loot becomes theirs. There are plenty of them around, and they all need their vehicles destroyed.


That has always worked both ways. As an LE player I can't do anything to the un-LE'd when they do it. This has always been a problem and still is between Le'd players, even with the patch.

Perhaps certain mobs shouldn't unlock for other players. Anything that drops rares should stay locked for the one player who got the kill or even for the team.

DR REED
16-02-13, 14:13
This vehicle/LE-related patch is very bad one.

Now vehicles (and with this content (!!) again) becomes worthless. Where former patches does make vehicles not as usable as in NC 2.1 now vehicles become targets of griefers which will lead to avoid them completely. Fire mob hunting for leveling and part collection will become not psossible anymore, therefore people will switch to use quad/rifle/cannons only because risk is much lower.

Lot of flaws can be observed here:

1. No one could escape attackers with a Rhino or so. This is unrealistic #1: runners are much faster running /zonig than vehicles. The often cited "bad cyberpunk world" - how realistic is this ??

2. One or two Runners easily can destroy a Rhino = a TANK with a TANK CANNON and this TANK could not harm them due to low damage and aiming. This is unrealistic #2 ?? Did one ever tried to make pvp with a Rhino against pvp-Chars ? Laughable. (and: the Rhino is one of the toughest and with some damage, take a look at the worthless combat quads, reveler or trikes....). Shouldn't have a Tank (!!) 100.000 HP ore more and shouldn't do his cannon 2.000 HP damage or more ?

3. Normally a pvp-specialized setup is always superior to any pve-setup. And people who are hunting with Rhinos do have pve-setups mostly.

4. The "LE-Runner-blocking-Corps-"argument is a bad one. How often is this happening ? I did not experienced this over years. And it is bidirectional: non-LE'd players could do this also.


I would believe that this will continue shifting gameplay more to the pvp-direction and away from pve content. Only result is that this will favoring grief play and flaming and will decativate content again rather than make content useful/ playable.

Reed

Alduin
16-02-13, 20:13
Thanks to the people giving constructive feedback, this is very much appreciated (you know who you are ;) <3 ). The idea of putting the anti-vhc weapons back to good use is a good one, but we need to evaluate it in more detail on the team.

Just a side remark: we have the possibility of changing the system to what was intended in 2.2, but we won't.

[EDIT]
And again I have to stress: this patch is only the beginning there are more changes to come, but as stated earlier we need to test those bit by bit.

Faid
16-02-13, 22:52
SO the LE doesn't protect a runners property as stated by Alduin, why then does the LE prevent people from shooting said property? If the reason for LE'd vehicles being susceptible to attack is based on the LE's function to only effect the person not the property, why then can't LE'd people damage other property? You've seemingly separated people from property, therefor all property shoot be attack-able regardless of the LE status of who is shooting at it.

Kame
16-02-13, 23:12
Faid... Common sense man. How can you defend your vehicle from a runner you cannot attack ?

Also a normal Neocron Runner is indeed non-LE. The ones with special satus here are the LE'd, not the other way around.

hatmankh
17-02-13, 02:56
Kame if you mean the bugs with LE'd gunners shooting player's vehicles, no one is suggesting we go back to that.

Most of the suggestions in this thread seem to be very similar: Extend the LE rules to vehicles, it's very simple, LE should mean you can't attack or be attacked by any player. Not having a LE means you can only shoot other people without a LE.

The ONLY argument against this is LE'd players blocking things with vehicles, be that GRs, OP entrances or lootable corpses.
I would say #181's answer to this is not a fix, it's fixing one problem but creating another one*, there needs to be a real fix to the vehicle blocking issue, this clearly isn't it.

*Don't say being able to destroy people's vehicles and they can't do anything back isn't a problem, you can troll as much as you like, we all know like Faid said in every other area of the game being able to shoot something that can't shoot you back (safespotting, old drone targetting bugs, terrain bugs etc...) has always been considered an exploit.

This patch introduces legal exploiting, some people want it because of the vehicle blocking problem. Some want it so they can shoot LE'd players with no fear of getting shot back.

If we create more problems every time we fix something, we will be stuck fixing stuff for eternity and Neocron will never truly improve.

Ghostface_Speak
17-02-13, 04:16
The idea of putting the anti-vhc weapons back to good use is a good one, but we need to evaluate it in more detail on the team.
Please make sure everyone in the Team understands that those weapons are kinda "Tank only" at this point.We all know how much people love Tank-o-cron since 2.2 but please try to create an anti-vehicle "solution" that is not limited to a certain class (a higher damage output while in the hands of a Soldier makes sense,tho)

Jodo
17-02-13, 05:18
Thanks to the people giving constructive feedback, this is very much appreciated (you know who you are ;) <3 ). The idea of putting the anti-vhc weapons back to good use is a good one, but we need to evaluate it in more detail on the team.

Just a side remark: we have the possibility of changing the system to what was intended in 2.2, but we won't.

[EDIT]
And again I have to stress: this patch is only the beginning there are more changes to come, but as stated earlier we need to test those bit by bit.

I've always believed in and tried to give constructive criticism but I hope you understand the widespread hostility towards the latest test patch. There are numerous ways that it negatively affects the game.
You keep underlining that "there are more changes to come". I hope this means that there will be something to alter and/or balance the vehicle issue. As you seem reluctant to divulge anything further I will have to trust that there are good reasons and that your vision for this is as well designed as the other changes to have taken effect in the last few months. I've given my feedback on the idea and won't be banging on about it any further, or at least until there are further developments.


Faid... Common sense man. How can you defend your vehicle from a runner you cannot attack ?

You mean like un-LE'd attacking a LE'd vehicle?

Haggis.at
17-02-13, 12:32
The only valid (i.e. "fair") solution in this case would be that the LE'd player may defend himself/his property when attacked (and this limited to the attacking non-LE'd player so you don't shoot innocent bystanders by accident). So you normally can't harm anyone but when some idiot attacks your Rhino you may retaliate. Thus preventing senseless griefing (guess why every sane person rides a Jones car to distant caves/Regants... Because not every idiot can destroy your vehicle while standing there when you are PvE busy..) Unless you can implement such kind of "aggro system" it would be most unfair and I won't get my expensive rhino out of the garage until fixed (already lost 2 while syncing/leveling - this is getting expensive). And for you whining un-LEd: I won't remove my LE from my droner - you wouldn't like me doing this, believe me...
Just my 2 cents

Kame
17-02-13, 18:37
You mean like un-LE'd attacking a LE'd vehicle?

Don't play us for fools. That reply is pure bullshit.
LE'd people have the means to defend their vehicles against un-LE'd.

Un-LE'd have simply no means to defeat an LEd vehicule.


Making LE'd able to attack non-LE'd is the worst idea ever as it not only opens the door for a lot of LE'd driver/non-LE'd gunner bullshit like we currently have to deal with, it simply makes it easier.


Really if you want to defend your vehicules against an un-LE'd runner, hire a non-LE, or take off the LE yourself.

Jodo
17-02-13, 19:55
Don't play us for fools. That reply is pure bullshit.
Not at all, it's a fact. While I have an LE in, it is impossible for me to counter-attack.


Making LE'd able to attack non-LE'd is the worst idea ever as it not only opens the door for a lot of LE'd driver/non-LE'd gunner bullshit like we currently have to deal with, it simply makes it easier.

I don't want LE'd runners to be able to attack un-LE'd. I greatly value what the LE has always been designed to do.



Really if you want to defend your vehicules against an un-LE'd runner, hire a non-LE, or take off the LE yourself.

This is a bullshit reply you spoke of earlier. I will not be forced to play the game someone else's way. The LE and it's PvP protection is a must for me and others.

Kame
17-02-13, 21:51
With the new vehicle rules, you will be able to remain an LE'd driver, and with an un-LE'd gunner you will be able to fight back.

As I see things, hiring an un-LE'd gunner is the most viable and fun option for a tradeskiller wanting to hunt in a rhino for instance.

Things are a lot different for say, a lone spy on a Scout Glider or any sort of passive vehicles. I guess it will stimulate the economy.

Jodo
18-02-13, 03:40
How is some poor noob with his/her newly acquired vehicle supposed to hire anyone? Even someone who can afford it, for it to be worth another runners time they'd likely want half the loot which would mean Le'd runners only have half the earning potential as un-LE'd. A group of non PvP friends should be able to go into the wastes (or anywhere else for that matter) without having to give a chunk of their earnings to someone to protect them from a PvP element.

Also, why would my LE'd tank want to hire a un-LE'd gunner?

flib
18-02-13, 22:19
How is some poor noob with his/her newly acquired vehicle supposed to hire anyone? Even someone who can afford it, for it to be worth another runners time they'd likely want half the loot which would mean Le'd runners only have half the earning potential as un-LE'd. A group of non PvP friends should be able to go into the wastes (or anywhere else for that matter) without having to give a chunk of their earnings to someone to protect them from a PvP element.

Also, why would my LE'd tank want to hire a un-LE'd gunner?That all sounds totally reasonable to me.

Ingthor
19-02-13, 18:26
( sry online translation help )

We have to think over enough experiences the LE.
With the LE I show that I have no interest in the PvP and serves as a player protection to be killed with the PvP.

Normal killing effects with a player are:

#1. Cemetery
#2. Loss of the dog Tags
#3. Belt and object loss
#4. Implant loss
#5. Money and loss of SI

If I consider which points to the central protection of the player serves so I could neglect points #1.

Sharp 1 an In parallel society and behaviour did not bring us thus was wanted.

I think its time to test if Killing LE Player with additional Player Protection of #2 till #5 will be possible for our World

Ivan Eres
19-02-13, 18:48
( sry online translation help )

So LE'd players can be killed but they would lose nothing.

Question is why would anyone even remove the LE anymore then.

hatmankh
19-02-13, 19:04
So LE'd players can be killed but they would lose nothing.

Question is why would anyone even remove the LE anymore then.

So they could defend themselves.

About the vehicle stuff, I just noticed today that even in the retail server non LE'd can shoot a LE'd player's vehicle but only when they aren't inside it, was 2.2 like this before all the volunteer team patches or is this a new bug? It seems strange to me, like the game isn't recognizing the vehicle as owned by a LE'd player until they're actually driving it.

I would be grateful if someone could make this clear for everyone.

Ingthor
19-02-13, 19:22
....
Question is why would anyone even remove the LE anymore then.

We everybody know the restrictions a LE bearer has

#A. A head place less
#B. No clan creation
#C. No belt hack

If you believe this it does not reach around players in it to hinder also to play the End-content.
Then one could think to himself optionally about an additional belt LE. But
this is a new discussion.

Iceflower
19-02-13, 19:26
*snip*was 2.2 like this before all the volunteer team patches or is this a new bug?*snip*

It has always been that way in 2.2. Once LE'd players leave a vehicle, it is FFA. No bug, working as intended (in 2.2).

Ingthor
19-02-13, 19:35
So they could defend themselves.....

LE are no helpless players, I do not know like you get on.

It goes completely have which social position player LE in Neocron only therefore.

They have a protective function towards PvP player - more not.

I mean an additional cemetery protection one can neglect

Gunshifty
20-02-13, 22:39
With the new vehicle rules, you will be able to remain an LE'd driver, and with an un-LE'd gunner you will be able to fight back.

As I see things, hiring an un-LE'd gunner is the most viable and fun option for a tradeskiller wanting to hunt in a rhino for instance.

Things are a lot different for say, a lone spy on a Scout Glider or any sort of passive vehicles. I guess it will stimulate the economy.

[Addressing the Non-LE/LE'd spots]
So just make it a rule that a non-LE'd person can only have non-LE'd people in he vehicle and vice versa for LE'd people. That way all this talk about LE/Non-LE'd gunners come to an end. It shouldn't be hard to implement a way to safety lock vehicles so that you can coin the term "LE'd vehicle" and "Non-LE'd vehicle".

If you need me to clarify:
LE'd Vehicle = Vehicle that can only be operated by LE'd players
Non-LE'd Vehicle = Vehicle that can only be operated by Non-LE'd players.

In summary, if you find my post somewhere on page 3 (i.e. applying the same guidelines LE'd/Non-LE'd players abide by in regular PvP) and include what I posted in this post, the only logical flaw in everything would be the people who cover a mob's loot.

One possible way to deflect the "people who cover up loot" would be to release a "/set" (or relative to the command) that opens loot when you are in looting range. For anyone who has played WoW, I believe the command was /loot, in which case you player was able to loot the mob without having to press a button or having clear l.o.s. However, I can be wrong, it's been a really long time since I played WoW (good riddance).

EDIT: this scenario stated in this post also addresses Doc Holliday's post on page 2 about LE'd/Non-LE'd gunners(too lazy to throw in the quote).

Ingthor
20-02-13, 23:53
You make all that so complex,thus complicates - rules who what and how.

LE Player have to be Protected from PvP Player - right. But an additional Cemetery Protection isnīt necessary because they are in the
same game community as nonLE Player.