View Full Version : [R#179] Runspeed Discussion
The Patch Discussion thread is full with off topic and the runspeed is clearly a suggestion, so I will start a thread here.
Feel free to post all you mind about the runspeed.
My opinion is, that the runspeed should have a cap again, cause it frees some skillpoints for other skills. The fights won't take shorter or longer, but you can spend some points to hlt or more resists in CON and in DEX you can do other things, too.
Thx Satan.
Yes I think the same. We did some duels yesterday. The runspeed is really to high in order to make things funny. Lowtech-Tanks and Spies are the best PvP-Characters just because they are ultra fast.
APUs put zero points on resist and just spec 100 ATL base.
Everything is about speed. Aiming gets more difficult. The leveldesign of neocron isn't meant to maintain such a high runspeed.
Voting for a "softcapp" ...
Maybe we can change the thread to a poll with discussion, so we can vote on softcap, hardcap or no cap :)
The Real Xtro
06-02-13, 11:58
I agree too the way things are now you have to have amazing PVP skills to hit anything smaller than a barn door the game needs to be able to be played by people with average pvp skills doing so will make sure that those with leet skills have lots of cannon fodder.
Agility less effect on runspeed.
Hits the classes most that need to be hit. Maybe too much impact on HC/TC Tanks, as I feel they balance out runspeed/dodging/resists perfectly now.
Praetorian
06-02-13, 12:05
I strongly disagree on nerfing runspeed without balancing the entire system.
Just to mention 1 thing that ties into it - with the foregin cast buff penalties, certain classes would just become sitting ducks if they didnt have runspeed. APUs would become even less viable and spies would die too fast as they dont have tank/PE resists. This of course would only be even worse without PPU buffs.
If people want the runspeed changed, it should come as a complete overhaul of the entire system. Otherwise it makes no sense.
Ive spent 6+ hours after patch in p2 doing nothing but pvp. I hit people, people hit me. I really dont see the problem.
Doc Holliday
06-02-13, 12:09
It could secretly make the pe more viable ;)
Ive spent 6+ hours after patch in p2 doing nothing but pvp. I hit people, people hit me. I really dont see the problem.Right now PvP is a no go for everyone that didn't grew up with shooters.. You are one of the few who are still able to dish out enough damage to get past the holy heal rate - but most of the players arent.
Ive spent 6+ hours after patch in p2 doing nothing but pvp. I hit people, people hit me. I really dont see the problem.
Would you see Plaza2 as an example for adjusting runspeed or not?
Did you try the same thing in Jeriko Fortress for example?
Problem is not even that you don't hit each other while both engaged in the fight. The problem is more or less that as soon someone wants to escape he just runs away. And this in an ultra fast manner. You cannot follow nor hit.
It is just awful.
And please think of the people who are new to the game and want to experience some PvP. At the current state they go into an OP-war and get melted down by a lowtech-Ionic-Cannon tank and two AK-spies in two seconds.
There is no fun part in it.
How would you explain the newbies that they have to put every skill point in Athletics and Agility so that they are viable in PvP?
Agility less effect on runspeed.
Hits the classes most that need to be hit. Maybe too much impact on HC/TC Tanks, as I feel they balance out runspeed/dodging/resists perfectly now.
But it wouldn't affect H-C/T-C tanks the most.
That would affect Spies the most then PE's.
Tanks only have to spend whatever T-C they need to use a weapon under DEX and then spec the rest in AGL. Their main combat skill comes under STR where they can pretty much put every point of a 100 STR lvl's worth into H-C.
They also have 100 CON and could counter if Agility had less effect on runspeed by simply speccing more ATH.
Spies and PE's have to spec their combat skills, tech combat and part/half of their runspeed (Agility) all from one limited pool.
The reason I say it would affect spies more than PE's is due to PE's having a lot more CON and therefore could counter a Agility having less effect on runspeed by speccing more ATH. Spies however don't have that option due to their low CON cap of 40.
Personally I vote for a 'softcap' the same as we had in NC1/NC2. Also I do feel that weapon aiming/recticle closure rates need looking at to bring them more into line with how they used to be in NC1/NC2 as well.
Praetorian
06-02-13, 12:43
My main point is that if you want to alter runspeed, it needs to be done as a complete balance overhaul.
In the old days you had parashock to slow people down but on the other hand you had no penalties on PPU buffs. Even then the only real viable pvp chars for OP fights where tanks, apus and ppus. (APUs mainly because you needed them for antibuffs). You may be able to find some PEs or the odd spy participating in the OP brawls, but i think you get my point.
Now the game has changed completely. APUs as a class is not viable and not even needed after having their antibuffs taken away. They may be able to keep alive for abit because of their (current) runspeed. Spies can now actually stay alive due to no parashock and high runspeed (40 CON, you cant spec any serious resists with that) while dishing out some serious damage - making them viable. Dont forget a spy could always gtfo because they have stealth - runspeed wont change that. Tanks are, as far as i can tell from fighting them, doing pretty well in general. HC or low tech, doesnt seem to matter alot. Granted the low tech runs faster, but the HC have some pretty good resists going for them. For an example, if a tank shoots an unbuffed spy in the legs once, say with a ravager, the fights basically over. Only takes a handful of shots to kill a spy. Do spies need their runspeed? Most definatly.
As for OP fights, you asked if i did that after patch, no i havent. Before this patch i did go to jerico this weekend and fought. And what do people do? They run around using obstacles/objects/buildings to stay alive. Do you think that would change if you nerfed the runspeed? I truly dont think so. You can still run around a gogo or some boxes - spies will still stealth away. I honestly dont see why runspeed should change that. Especially not if the guy being chased uses other people to dodge behind which always happens when 5-6 people try to kill 1 guy.
Anyway, im an old fart, i definatly do not have the reflexes i had when i played quake back in 1996. And i can still aim and hit stuff so i really have a hard time understanding why people feel the need to nerf runspeed on classes that only stay viable because of it. Just trying to get my point across :)
I can appreciate the wish for nerfing the runspeed. Sometimes as a PPU it feels like you are running after a school of fish on crack trying to heal everybody (especially you spies :p).
However, as Praetorian said, if this is up for a change you have to look at what will be affected as well. Some depend on the runspeed for survivability, not just to use it for catching up to people or being fast in general.
But it wouldn't affect H-C/T-C tanks the most.
That would affect Spies the most then PE's. And next lowtech tanks. And thats the point - those classes are too fast now. As I said before: HC/TC vs HC/TC Tank feels absolutely perfect now. Others classes should be faster, but not in these dimensions. Speed specced or lowtech spys are rediculous now.
Tanks only have to spend whatever T-C they need to use a weapon under DEX and then spec the rest in AGL. Their main combat skill comes under STR where they can pretty much put every point of a 100 STR lvl's worth into H-C.
They also have 100 CON and could counter if Agility had less effect on runspeed by simply speccing more ATH.That also reduces their resists and therefor their survivability. Trading resists against runspeed = working as intended. At least in my eyes.
Spies and PE's have to spec their combat skills, tech combat and part/half of their runspeed (Agility) all from one limited pool.
The reason I say it would affect spies more than PE's is due to PE's having a lot more CON and therefore could counter a Agility having less effect on runspeed by speccing more ATH. Spies however don't have that option due to their low CON cap of 40.PEs are underpowered compared to spys in terms of damage, runspeed and resists anyways, so I don't see a problem there.
The low impact of spy and pe resists is a topic for balancing. They shouldn't be forced to purely spec runspeed. This proposal is mainly for fixing the runspeed issue and providing a base to balance armor/resist/shield efficiency stats around. If you don't see a runspeed issue, you should really play Quake :p
I think a lot of the issue, is down to how fast people can still run with their weapons drawn.
In NC1/NC2 you used to trade off damage (using H-C or Rifles for example) for speed (Melee or Pistols).
Now due to the uncapped runspeed this isn't really a factor anymore. (poor damaage performance of melee and most pistols atm just makes the issue worse)
Maybe we can change the thread to a poll with discussion, so we can vote on softcap, hardcap or no cap :)
Preferably we would like to see everyone's thoughts and reasoning for change of this magnitude. We do not allow the poll feature to ensure topics are fully discussed and everyone is able to voice their full ideas, suggestions and opinions. The more discussion the better as this allows us to build a true picture of how the community feel about certain issues rather than a simple click of a button which may have little thought behind it.
Runspeed should be different from player to player.
Don't have a cap provvide different builds.
is the real issue this no runspeed cap? Or is about the difficult to hold a player with one of the many speed debuffs?
...
Don't have a cap provvide different builds.
...
Unfortunately at the moment it's not capped and it doesn't provide different builds. Everyone is speccing for as much runspeed as they can get, as that is that most viable way to play/pvp at the moment. Runspeed currently is greater than all defensives/CON.
i don't get it.
What about slowing weapons? if i hit you with a rare one you should face the ground for a few secs.
and what about if target hits you all the time? No resistances = istant death, isnt it? I remember on nc1 1 fire apocalypse hit killed a spy with no fire res.
i don't get it.
What about slowing weapons? if i hit you with a rare one you should face the ground for a few secs.
and what about if target hits you all the time? No resistances = istant death, isnt it? I remember on nc1 1 fire apocalypse hit killed a spy with no fire res.
Para-effects were made useless with 2.2 (and thank god for that). So there isnt any worthwhile "slow effects" anymore.
i see no point in this ( but now understand why resistances re quite useless compared to ath ), but good to know.
Imo there should be a softcap, and it should be restricted to class and it's personal possibilities in dextery and constitution. Nearly every class is as fast as Usain Bolt, tbh I like to play a fast character as well, but what I sometimes see is just sick.
There should be a clear visible difference between a tc and a non-tc tank with everything in agility, but the difference is brutal. As a tank you nearly need no consetup in a op fight with ppu support and the resis from your armor, because you are fast enough to get not hit, run between enemies, bugg from tree to wall etc.
But the whole speed discussion is up to many factors, if the paralyzing weapons would work again, the speed wouldn't be that problem it is right now.
But then the players with non-highspeed-setup would be fucked up, because a holy frostration would them fix to the ground :D I don't know how the netcode works, but a good idea would be to tie the strength of a paralyzing spell to the runspeed of the enemy, means for example: A weapon like Summer leech would subtract for example some percent of the idividual runspeed of a runner each shot/cast.
Would solve some problems at the same time, High-speed setuped runners could get slowed down, there would be a use for weapons like Summer Leech etc, drugs against paralysis would make more sense and so on...
The runspeed is that high that character model twitch/jerk and generally display choppy movements. It makes everything much harder to aim. On my APU, I can run for cover faster than some guns even shoot. Meaning by the 2/4 of the dissy shot I am out of the LOS of the attacker... Shitty indeed.
Yesterday in P2 Zoltan's all-arti PE could run faster than I could turn around...
We need at least movements smoothing, and if it's not possible then a runspeed cap.
Powerpunsh
06-02-13, 16:11
Neocron is no unreal tournament or something same to compare with.
In my opinion we have to look on many factors to make a desicion of a runspeed cap or not. I would do a workaround on some more positions. Currently drugs can push a character way too hard over the edge. A limit of drugs would be fine and would make sense too. Also i would change the massive effect on runspeed some drugs cause. The decrease of runspeed on pas (increase of it with a holo PA) is another aspect i would take advisedly.
nevertheless i see a necessity of a runspeedcap. In my opinion a runspeed of 0.86-0.90 is fast enough. probably 95% the runners get in trouble with a higher runspeed + decent movement. Thats not the sense of a MMORPG in which just the chosen 5% bash a whole server. There should always be a chance for everyone to compete against others successful.
The Real Xtro
06-02-13, 19:39
Well i have read most of posts here and it seems there are a few issues not just the run speed..... and if anything because there are the run speed issue is becoming buried somewhat there is more than just world PVP there is Oppwar PVP now i have to ask what is the most important to this game.
1) being leet and not being killed in P2
2) being leet and not being killed in an opp war
I haven't done much fighting in P2 but i have done some opp warring and i found that the spies now move that fast they move before my reticle closes perhaps we could get some sort of splash damage back with canons.
some changes are needed or this will turn into a server full of spys and ppu's ....... if you think that resists work you need to look again the best resist is still not getting hit, tanks still die if there slow just a little slower.
I was talking to a spy in our clan he said he don't care about resists or buffs just give me a running heal and am good to go.
maybe we could change the heals make them heal for the same amout but reduce the time they run for.
I could go on and on with sugestions but am fast running out of (do i care juice) and really the game has had so many changes some good some bad that i Wonder if it just needs a complete rewrite i was reading earlier how PE's are screwed over the ability to get WoC as a tank i don't give a shit about WoC why would i i don't wear PA and the rocket launcher is useless TBH even the rare and MC5 chips for tanks are pointless to how you need to make your tank setups work.
since comming back i never see APU's unless there leveling ..... to change to PPU.
melee tanks used to be fun but due to the current stamina you fast run out of stam boosters + there damage ain't that hot
so lets all level spys WoC them and let the gm's consider if that the way they want the game to go.
Petalustig
06-02-13, 23:34
Gj with the runspeed i was alltimes Consetup>speed but now Speed> resi/ hlt .. you dont need anything because 90% of the guys cant even hit you :D but i like it because now you need really a aim :)
Gj with the runspeed i was alltimes Consetup>speed but now Speed> resi/ hlt .. you dont need anything because 90% of the guys cant even hit you :D but i like it because now you need really a aim :)
Try me with my doombeamer, GL without resists or health or incorrect positioning :P
Apprently, players even resort to using HC AOE because they have issues aiming a runner with a single target weapon.
This is sad.
Sausage Jockey
07-02-13, 01:01
Personally I vote for a 'softcap' the same as we had in NC1/NC2. Also I do feel that weapon aiming/recticle closure rates need looking at to bring them more into line with how they used to be in NC1/NC2 as well.
THIS.
Combat in NC1 was much, much, much better.
For those saying that with a runspeed cap spies will die too fast because of the shield nerf - good. So they should. They shouldn't be able to run around at an opwar dishing out more damage than a tank without even needing to stealth because they're too fast for most people to hit frequently enough to negate their holy heal. Spies are an absolute joke right now.
I do, however, agree that it would fuck APUs even more than they already are.
Something needs to be done with them. Desperately.
Petalustig
07-02-13, 07:50
Try me with my doombeamer, GL without resists or health or incorrect positioning :P
I think you have See it yesterday with Ppus on both Sides Falk :P ... But it sucks you dont need any Consetup now .. Fight vs 2 fullbuffed Tanks like 1 min and none of them get a Hit in this Time
Doc Holliday
07-02-13, 08:13
cap would be intriguing but as mentioned it needs to come with certain other changes. you cannot screw one class royally trying to compensate.
Other options is class by class caps. rather than a one size fits all cap.
The Real Xtro
07-02-13, 11:30
i don't know what the answer is i am not technical or understand con and resists or caps all i what is a quick fix to this problem even the wrong would be better than non and as stated in previous posts in other topics curently i think the situation is worse now than it was with the clipping bugs.
I hope they bring the runspeed cap already today when they manage to fix the bugs.
Otherwise PvP wouldn't make sense at all for the next days and maybe weeks.
William Antrim
07-02-13, 13:01
What about having a cap on speed and then a bonus % somewhere along the line for weapon drawn. Like with a Rifle or a cannon you have % malus but with a pistol/glove/melee weapon you get a bonus?
What if being a Melee fighter gave you bonuses to your speed? rather than a nerf. Call it "melee reflexes" or whatever.
Rifle and Cannons users IMO should take a hit on their ath but Pistol users and particularly monks need the speed.
The only class that would have any kind of nerf in this suggestion is the Rifle SPY. He has weak resists and would be slower than his pistol counterpart but with the stealth tool he will have a get out clause for fighting.
I think Net and Doc are right on this one. With a runspeed cap the game will come down to resist set ups all over again and it will make it easier for the newer guys with less aim.
P.s I lol'd at the comment about all the people who havent grown up with shooters. Come on now, I am 32 and have been playing shooters for years but the kids these days play COD from being just out of the womb! Theyre much better than I am and if theyre not then all the more reason to stick around and improve!
sorry couldnt resist :D
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JEmklTvAkbM
Have to agree to Doc and William but I think the main problem is that NC is NOT designed to be a twitch shooter. So if you become so fast that you outmaneuver the aiming system it is flawed by design. The Bonus/Malus System from William seems quite viable (and logical too! You can't run fast with a heavy machinegun but if you just carry a pistol? Piece of cake! ) and the reintroduction of Parashock and Frost Weapons for a certain percentage will even the playingfield even more! And for THAT issue one more thing: Why not get these things working for PvE again too? May help dealing with mobs with INSANE Damage Output like the regant ones - and instead of just pushing the damage of mobs altogether you could make them quicker - so you have the possibility to survive and use frost/para to slow them back to "normal". Would give high level encounters a little twist instead of "if it hits you - you die". And I have to bring the bad game with 3 letters into this discussion (and any other MMO in this matter) where you had to use tactics to win - maybe another point to think about? OK - flame me for the WxW example ^^
DISCLAIMER : I AM NOT PRO-PARASHOCK. It almost murdered the game last time around.
However...
If freezer weapons/parashock came back, it'd have to be rather miniscule in terms of % slow-down. Also, give it to every class, and make it even.
10-15% speed reduction in the form of a TL 85 (ish) pistol/rifle/cannon/melee/apu spell/ppu spell.
I must say though, I prefer the other alternatives over having everyone open a fight with an attack which slows down the opponent. That being said, failure to get that first shot in could have a huge impact on the outcome of every fight.
PS : I used to LOVE my freezer pistol, in slot 2 of my QB.
William Antrim
08-02-13, 00:52
DISCLAIMER : I AM NOT PRO-PARASHOCK. It almost murdered the game last time around.
However...
If freezer weapons/parashock came back, it'd have to be rather miniscule in terms of % slow-down. Also, give it to every class, and make it even.
10-15% speed reduction in the form of a TL 85 (ish) pistol/rifle/cannon/melee/apu spell/ppu spell.
I must say though, I prefer the other alternatives over having everyone open a fight with an attack which slows down the opponent. That being said, failure to get that first shot in could have a huge impact on the outcome of every fight.
PS : I used to LOVE my freezer pistol, in slot 2 of my QB.
Please no. Not at all. Runspeed cap moves the focus back to resists (tweaking your set up and testing it in nf and discussing it with your mates) and carrying two guns for 2 different damage types, means more risk of dying and more chance of interesting stuff dropping. Also means that NON-rares might also stand a chance of being made viable with the balancing patch that might be coming along!!!
A runspeed cap would do wonders for the noobs who want to pvp but darent. They would have a chance and the elite pros would have new targets.
Bringing in a freeze weapon would set the server back 10 years. It almost killed NC. DO NOT GO there. :D please.
More pvp also means more PVP events which means more player run events which means we get back to a resemblance of NC1 which is only a good thing!
kthxbai
William, not the freezer weapons almost killed the server but the balancing of them by KK..
Holy Parashock/Rare Freezer should slow you down max. 50% instead of nailing you to the ground.
Non-Rares even less. Combined with the runspeed cap it should work out fine ;)
Personally I think that a para, freeze implementation would not be a server/game killer as the drama queen is stating, but I do think it needs to be tested, tested, tested again and then retested till we find a proper balance that doesn't allow perma slow but does give advantage when used.
Just a thought. What if strafing had a speed penalty to it? Nothing dramatic, just enough where combat isnt massively twitchy. You'd still keep your forward run speed.
And just for the record. I feel that the current movement near completely ruins PvP, to the point where I'd prefer to not participate. It becomes a game of luck, and a fraction of it being skill. Not to whine, just to make sure admins know that this should take a higher priority. Op fighting JUST started to pick back up after what seems like half of the last batch of op fighters simply quit the game.
William Antrim
08-02-13, 18:02
drama queen lol.
entitled to an opinion no?
I dont like freezers. Sorry, thats just me.
There is a difference between, I don't like freezers and END OF NEOCRON AND LIFE AS WE KNOW ITTTTTTTTTT
There is a difference between, I don't like freezers and END OF NEOCRON AND LIFE AS WE KNOW ITTTTTTTTTT
Freezers used to almost stick you to the spot, only holy para was worse, which if you didn't have any shock breaker drugs you might as well have just walked away from you computer for a minute.
They were simply far to powerful and took fun out of pvp.
Thread stickied as a highlighted discussion.
Chuck Norris
09-02-13, 16:19
they should have much lower dmg output and only proc like a half a second or second Psi based stun (rares). This would make them effective in pvp and pve will need some tweaking for pvp. Make it much more of a tool vs a viable dmg spec. This could also make ressist psi something more useful, since you could resist the effect of the freezer
NO... FUCKING.. PARA!!!
Para WAS gamebreaking! It pretty much too ALL the fun out of OPfighting.
Removing Para was pretty much the ONLY REALLY good thing 2.2 did!
NO... FUCKING.. PARA!!!
Para WAS gamebreaking! It pretty much too ALL the fun out of OPfighting.
Removing Para was pretty much the ONLY REALLY good thing 2.2 did!
... took*
Deus Ex Machina
09-02-13, 20:52
NO... FUCKING.. PARA!!!
Para WAS gamebreaking! It pretty much too ALL the fun out of OPfighting.
Removing Para was pretty much the ONLY REALLY good thing 2.2 did!I can live very well without Parashock, though i have to say the most problematic thing were that
1) You could be nailed to the ground, or nearly that, thats different from being a little slower. VERY different.
2) The shock also affected your aiming very much, not only your movement speed.
[If Shock is not made useful again I'd like to have the weapons that shocked made into decent damage weapons. I just like the white Energy pulse (and white swirly) of the Shock weapons, If it did damage I would use it :-)]
So on one of my pure tradeskillers I've got 80 ATL and 80 AGL, since they've got nothing better to do with their points in those areas. Yet there were people in P1 last night tearing ass right passed me as if I were standing still....that's ridiculous. How the hell many points do they have in ATL/AGL? How gimped are they? When did they rework runspeed?
I remember back in the day 80/80 would actually have been blazing balls-to-the-wall fast. Anything more than that was both gimping you in some fashion and was not of much use anyway due to the softcap and very heavily diminishing returns hitting somewhere around 70/70.
I don't see how PvPers can hit anyone these days without slow-motion vision built into their eyes.
So on one of my pure tradeskillers I've got 80 ATL and 80 AGL, since they've got nothing better to do with their points in those areas. Yet there were people in P1 last night tearing ass right passed me as if I were standing still....that's ridiculous. How the hell many points do they have in ATL/AGL? How gimped are they? When did they rework runspeed?
I remember back in the day 80/80 would actually have been blazing balls-to-the-wall fast. Anything more than that was both gimping you in some fashion and was not of much use anyway due to the softcap and very heavily diminishing returns hitting somewhere around 70/70.
I don't see how PvPers can hit anyone these days without slow-motion vision built into their eyes.
Depends a lot on classes.. Spies usually have 80-100 ATL / 160 AGL (drugged), and tanks 100-150 ATL /160-190 AGL (also drugged).
NC 2.2 removed the speed cap.
Depends a lot on classes.. Spies usually have 80-100 ATL / 160 AGL (drugged), and tanks 100-150 ATL /160-190 AGL (also drugged).
NC 2.2 removed the speed cap.
But on test server, even capped with as much as possible in weaponskill and tc, and only 40-50 base in agl, with self buff, rare implants, etc. my stats on rares with all 120 are still garbage; so to pump well over 100 into agl...?
But on test server, even capped with as much as possible in weaponskill and tc, and only 40-50 base in agl, with self buff, rare implants, etc. my stats on rares with all 120 are still garbage; so to pump well over 100 into agl...?
As long as you cap (or get close to cap) Aim% all is good tbh. You cant cap DMG%, so dont even bother.
With 200+ weaponskill you have enough to do a lot of damage (As long as your using one of the few viable weapons).
Personally I only spec for 50 base TC, unless on a tank, where Im HAVE to spec more, to use my weapons. Hell, I cant even use my TC weapons without Redflash.
Doc Holliday
10-02-13, 05:38
[If Shock is not made useful again I'd like to have the weapons that shocked made into decent damage weapons. I just like the white Energy pulse (and white swirly) of the Shock weapons, If it did damage I would use it :-)]
agreed. It would be nice to see them more viable. Even if they were purely energy damage. What i would personally like to see (if implemented correctly) is a potential mix damage type like the frostration. 50/50 before ammo mod or something.
Dont bring back blue glue. Dont even think about suggesting it. It was lame and ruined good fights. being able to stand and shoot someone who can barely turn to return fire was not skillful. It would also make the game PPU-acron im sure as it would be them that got it. And dont go oh ok well give it the apu then :rolleyes: I dont wanna be the apu in a team where my sole job is to glue people to stuff.
I did some testing with movement after the patch, since i felt pvp was much harder and I sucked way more vs people i would usually stomp with ease. So after a tip from someone i lomed all my resist instead of like 20 base in enr and put them in atl, which skyrocketed my PvP viability, resulting in me stomping those guys again. Its ridiculous, some people dont manage to get more than one hit off before having to run.
Theres one aspect of that, which i like and one which i dislike.
The one I like is, that I see potential for 1on1s and PvP outside of P2 and OPs become more oldschool. PvP reminds me more of back when you could fight outside MB in the J sectors and would meet lots of different enemies, like x-bow PEs, assault rifle PEs, Hybrid Monks, CS Tanks, Xbow or Slasher spies. This variability benefitted from fights lasting longer and being more skill based, since you had to know your setup well, and be good with the weapons/mechanics you used. Before the patch you just had to get the highest DMG you could get while still being good at clipping, since it was so easy to hit with the bad netcode.
The thing i dislike very much is, that you basically have to put all your points into agl/atl now because speed=win and skill only comes after that. Although i have to say I only tested this on my spy, and it is unclear to me how some tanks get to the runspeed they have.
My suggestion is: !!! _Maybe_ !!! tone runspeed down, but not all the way, to where aim doesnt matter anymore unless you absolutely suck at it.
And add a (soft)cap to runspeed, that is much easier reached than what you have to setup now. Then put that shit on the server and see what happens.
Noone can predict all the effects of a working netcode and all the free points available for everyone after you dont have to put them all into atl/agl anymore. Then after a while, when the players have figured out what is the overpowered new setup and abuse it to its limits, you can start nerfing it one after another, since you have a good foundation for rebalancing now.
Dribble Joy
10-02-13, 12:47
Also in favour of a soft cap. Probably around the 80/80 mark or wherever the old hard cap was. I'd also say make it based on agl+ath as a total, rather than having a soft cap on both. This would mean you could have a high agl or high ath wihtout being forced to spec in both.
For the freezers: As you all don't like the idea - how about making them PvE only? I am thinking about possibilities to make high end encounters more fun instead of "hit- die - rez - hit - die - rez" like it used to be (and I bet it still is)...
And for the record: I NEVER even thought about freezers being as bad as when they were invented...
yes, runspeed needs to be readjusted. basic speed is ok, but top speed needs to be soft-capped or slowed by a lower parameter. like this:
if 100 DEX + 100 ATL + 100 AGL (= 300 runpoints) will make you run 33m/s while 0 DEX + 0 ATL + 0 AGL (= 0) make you run 3 m/s, there's a base runspeed value of 3 and a parameter of 0.1. (10 ATH, AGL + DEX = 30 would make you run 3 + 30*0.1 = 6 m/s in my totally made up example)
if we change our little parameter from 0.1 (1:10) to 0.05 (1:20), a newb would still run 3 m/s, the lowlevel 3 + 30*0.05= 4.5 m/s and our true neocronian athlete 3 + 300*0.5= 18 m/s.
we would need to check this out on Vedeena.
What you re saying, is just keep the current system and halve the speed you get from points in atl/agl/dex. I also dont think currently runspeed calculation works like that, since most skills become less effective the more points you already have in them.
Other then that, I dont think, just making people slower would help with anything. You would still have to put a ton of skillpoints into atl/agl to reach top speed.
Im actually not completely against a SOFT cap (!!!), as long as people still have the ability to become very fast..
The current state of pvp is kinda ridiculous - I actually have to concentrate, to be able to hit people now! o_O
I miss pvp'ing with my feet up on the table! :p
PvP is kind of redicilous. Decent fights are only possible against enemies which doesn't spend every single point on athletics and agility.
I dont want to vote for no runspeed rework. But a runspeed cap without other changes will take the melee tank the only thing he has - speed. Okay, besides low and mid-level PvE. O_o
Nowadays melee tank is a quite good 1 on 1 pvp-char. But with a speedcap this times are over.
Dribble Joy
13-02-13, 01:04
yes, runspeed needs to be readjusted. basic speed is ok, but top speed needs to be soft-capped or slowed by a lower parameter. like this:
if 100 DEX + 100 ATL + 100 AGL (= 300 runpoints) will make you run 33m/s while 0 DEX + 0 ATL + 0 AGL (= 0) make you run 3 m/s, there's a base runspeed value of 3 and a parameter of 0.1. (10 ATH, AGL + DEX = 30 would make you run 3 + 30*0.1 = 6 m/s in my totally made up example)
if we change our little parameter from 0.1 (1:10) to 0.05 (1:20), a newb would still run 3 m/s, the lowlevel 3 + 30*0.05= 4.5 m/s and our true neocronian athlete 3 + 300*0.5= 18 m/s.
Without knowing any values or current relationships, I'd suggest something like:
If ATH+AGL = >151 then Speed = ((ATH+AGL)*A)+C
Else Speed = (150*A)+((ATH+AGL-150)*B)+C
Where C is the base speed (you can't have runners with 0 agl/ath unable to move).
A is the 'primary' speed factor.
B is the 'secondary' speed factor.
Honestly though, before some balancing this Whole subject is pretty pointless. Resists are close to worthless. Even with a softcap on speed, I would still overspec my speed like crazy.
Considering the INSANE damage of some weapons is, it is MUCH better to avoid getting hit (even by only a single burst), than it is to have good resists.
I think run speed should be changed, but only if the whole picture is taken into consideration (resists, weapon balance etc).
The current situation isn't really fun, especially as a ppu where you have to run around chasing a school of fish on crack.
Arista Barret
14-02-13, 21:30
There needs to be a runspeed sotfcap. i am a pvp maniac but i see no good coming from distancing the players even more. atm we have a few guys who can handle the speeds and alot of newer or less experienced runners frustrated with such a high learning curb. lowering runspeed caps will stimulate more and better pvp for the entire server. the best will still be the best and the newer guys will be more competitive.
Powerpunsh
15-02-13, 14:15
I think run speed should be changed, but only if the whole picture is taken into consideration (resists, weapon balance etc).
The current situation isn't really fun, especially as a ppu where you have to run around chasing a school of fish on crack.
That are my thoughts too but mokoi stated somwhere they are not intending to change any items. :p
Arista Barret
16-02-13, 03:56
I've done OP wars and zoneline pvp alll day. I am going to do alot more tradeskilling until the game is fixed abit. People run around like a school of fish on crack. Movement is way too jerky and there's no such thing as working as a team. Its basically hit whoever you can get a retical on. Boring tbh.
I've done OP wars and zoneline pvp alll day. I am going to do alot more tradeskilling until the game is fixed abit. People run around like a school of fish on crack. Movement is way too jerky and there's no such thing as working as a team. Its basically hit whoever you can get a retical on. Boring tbh.
I have to say I actually agree with this.
We had a few OP fights yesterday, and the movement is so ridiculously fast and erratic that you're constantly having to switch targets; that's assuming you can even target someone for long enough to hit them, and your own team mates don't break your lock.
The tactics of old are close to useless now. OP fights have deteriorated into a battle of which side knows the most tricks/bugs.
I am now 100% officially PRO runspeed cap.
I dont want to vote for no runspeed rework. But a runspeed cap without other changes will take the melee tank the only thing he has - speed. Okay, besides low and mid-level PvE. O_o
Nowadays melee tank is a quite good 1 on 1 pvp-char. But with a speedcap this times are over.
This is another issue entirely. I'm sure the current team will understand that any runspeed cap will essentially butcher the melee class entirely. I'm confident though that when the balancing starts to happen, maybe we'll see other advantages added for melee characters to compensate for their lack of runspeed.
PS : I have a near-cap, WoC melee tank on Titan.
Dribble Joy
16-02-13, 12:13
A soft cap and reworking of the melee imps to enable them to reach ath/agl levels higher than other classes might work to keep the melee users in contention.
We had an op fight at Simmons yesterday and I noticed that the drone camera seems to behave differently. I can't put my finger on it, but I was able to aim much better with it and the moment I switched to a runner it was like errr wtf.
Haven't really thought of it before, is there something different or just me. Haven't used a droner in PvP much really however. Obviously, the drone moves in a different manner, but even if I stand still with the drone or runner respectively the aiming seems different.
EDIT: I realized now what it is (doh). In drone mode I am using first person and when on a runner 3rd. The 3rd person view has this weird spring effect to the camera. I started a brainport thread a while back on this, to have it removed or to have an option to choose at least.
EDIT: I realized now what it is (doh). In drone mode I am using first person and when on a runner 3rd. The 3rd person view has this weird spring effect to the camera. I started a brainport thread a while back on this, to have it removed or to have an option to choose at least.
that actually explains why I haven't noticed much of the targeting problems that people have talked about, I always pvp in first person
Arista Barret
17-02-13, 23:33
Deff agree on melee tanks will be kinda screwed. I've always pushed for more dps for melee. this would bring them back to op wars too.
Arista Barret
19-02-13, 00:00
PvP is not even fun anymore. 1v1 or op wars. Im just dragging on waiting for a fix. its too jerky. Run speed is so high a pe can be as fast as my tank and take 74 from a toxic ionic cannon.
Once again making the thread about you.
Anyway back on topic, the softcap on runspeed needs to be tiered and the penalties for weapons and PA need to be re-adjusted inline with that. Yes you say melee tanks are screwed so then you make heavy weapons have more of a penalty. PA is a tough one because you don't wanna over nerf it to make it unwearable, maybe make the +hc stats slightly more inline with giving it more -ath so no pa is a hit to your hc but +pa is a massive hit to your MS.
monks need a flat softcap as spells aren't affected, rifles again inline with hc to a lesser % but both pistol and rifle get the PA hit.
Dribble Joy
19-02-13, 01:55
take 74 from a toxic ionic cannon.
You do realise that a PE has the highest overall piercing resistance of any class bar a PPU?
Arista Barret
19-02-13, 02:34
Stay on topic DJ...that's a nub question.
Soft cap on runspeed and have weapons affecting your run speed properly when drawn like they used to. Heavy weapons having the highest speed reduction when drawn and pistols and spells the least.
William Antrim
20-02-13, 00:34
Soft cap on runspeed and have weapons affecting your run speed properly when drawn like they used to. Heavy weapons having the highest speed reduction when drawn and pistols and spells the least.
simplicity often equals win.
Deus Ex Machina
20-02-13, 13:08
After thinking about runspeed a bit, I think to fix that, the first mechanism touched should be the resists and armor. If they have a bit more influence again, then it would make speccing them more interesting and PvE Damage would be reduced a bit.
I think resists, armor and speed are directly related, while a soft cap might be the right solution. I feel speed alone cannot be the focus of the discussion of speed, one reason for the speeders must be that the points in the resists are not really worth it comapred to speed. Of course also a softcap in speed might making speccing resists again more attractive.
The most important thing is not too change too much too much. Either one area quite a bit ore several areas a little bit. Too much at once is what broke the APU in the balancing.
Soft cap on runspeed and have weapons affecting your run speed properly when drawn like they used to. Heavy weapons having the highest speed reduction when drawn and pistols and spells the least.Just to add: I think Spells and Melee would reduce the least, and Pistols only a very little bit.
After thinking about runspeed a bit, I think to fix that, the first mechanism touched should be the resists and armor. If they have a bit more influence again, then it would make speccing them more interesting and PvE Damage would be reduced a bit.
I think resists, armor and speed are directly related, while a soft cap might be the right solution. I feel speed alone cannot be the focus of the discussion of speed, one reason for the speeders must be that the points in the resists are not really worth it comapred to speed. Of course also a softcap in speed might making speccing resists again more attractive.
I have said this for ages.. Speccing for resists is just stupid currently (and was before the current live-patch aswell).
The weapons mostly used, does too much damage no matter how good your resists are. So it is always a MUCH better idea to be fast, and avoid getting hit as much as possible.
This is however a part of the Whole balancing thing.. Uh and IMO, runspeed shouldnt be touched before some balancing starts.. Just imagine a Dissy/AK spy that doesnt miss, because your too slow to miss.. Or a Dev tank..
...
Just to add: I think Spells and Melee would reduce the least, and Pistols only a very little bit.
Yeah, that's it. From greatest to least speed reduction while drawn would be something like:
Heavy > Rifle > Pistol > Melee > Spells (then maybe tools and the like)
Dribble Joy
20-02-13, 19:54
I'm not sure which should be done first, armour/imps/resists or runspeed. The former though is a far more involved task however, so delaying any runspeed alteration until afterwards would mean a significant time before a PvP balancing effort was seen to have been made. It's a bit political, but if nothing's happening, people are going to get grumpy.
Also, as to the resist issue, the problem is what most people have specced, generally high energy and piercing, maybe a little fire. Any increase above this already inflated value is of course going to be minimal, so resists/armour don't seem to do much in many people's eyes.
As I suggested in another thread, if weapons mods made the primary damage of a weapon the modded dmg type, you would see people making bigger choices about their armour/resist setups and would notice the differences in different armour/resist values a lot more.
That's not to say of course that the resistance to resist/armour curve is fine, but personally I think the runspeed issue being addressed would make people look at resists more than a resist fix would make people look at lowering their runspeed.
Also, as to the resist issue, the problem is what most people have specced, generally high energy and piercing, maybe a little fire. Any increase above this already inflated value is of course going to be minimal, so resists/armour don't seem to do much in many people's eyes.
Pretty precise there.. I usually have about 30% fire/xray/poison resists and 55-60% energy resists. And 50-60% piercing resists.
75 HLT (that is WITH a drug), and the rest is being dumped into ATL. I have specced like this for years though.. And the people who have fought me in the past knows that it has worked quite well (for me at least :p ).
Arista Barret
22-02-13, 01:42
Run speed is the first thing to fix. it is also the number one problem with pvp.
William Antrim
22-02-13, 01:50
Run speed is the first thing to fix. it is also the number one problem with pvp.
Slow it down and you make it about aim all over again. Real skill. NC1 style.
Arista Barret
22-02-13, 01:58
Slow it down and you make it about aim all over again. Real skill. NC1 style.
This would also make pvp more competitive for entire community. runspeed is also something that effects all classes. it is a standard variable that must be considered in all setups.
Slowing this down without making other changes will make some weapons too powerfull I fear..
It will then be easy to get constant hits with Dissy, AK and Dev. No amount of resists can safe you from those weapons if constantly hitting, currently.
William Antrim
22-02-13, 15:49
Slowing this down without making other changes will make some weapons too powerfull I fear..
It will then be easy to get constant hits with Dissy, AK and Dev. No amount of resists can safe you from those weapons if constantly hitting, currently.
Dude I hear what you're saying and you are totally right but lets be fair here. They have to start somewhere. We know the balancing is coming and this would be an issue early on but you can't build a house without first laying a few foundations can you?
Dude I hear what you're saying and you are totally right but lets be fair here. They have to start somewhere. We know the balancing is coming and this would be an issue early on but you can't build a house without first laying a few foundations can you?
I know, Im just afraid that a speed nerf will hit LONG before the actual balancing starts.
Nothing should be done to the speed "problem" before the volunteers are completely ready to start with the balancing.
i bet any speed change will come in small, cautious steps.
demonssword
22-02-13, 20:49
Personally i am fine with people running as fast as they like, so long as the server is keeping up with them.
I havent pvp'd since comming back from the game outside of a bit of neofrag. However in checking out PVP by watching from buildings it seems its all about run speed. Having seen a few specs of people on nskill it seems about 95% speed with maybe a drug or 2 on as well sends your character in to a "skip mode" what makes their character run around a bit then suddenly slow for a second then run 3X the speed they normally can for a couple of seconds as the server seems to be catching up with them.
This of course makes targetting them with weapons that need to lock on very very hard, and with APU spells having more dmg based on how locked on you are it means apus seem to be a rare thing with h-c tanks, some rifle spys and loads of ppus as the only things that show up in op wars.
So in essence if they want a soft cap i am happy with that, but those who go beyond it of course could reduce the ammount of speed lost by having their weapons out.
Or maybe passed a certain point you dont gain as much speed as before this point, so diminished returns.
The trouble with either option is setting a value that doesnt make it to easy to hit people and then high con resists become king and apus and spys become worse because they are now easier to hit and have no resists for when they do.
The option i will throw out there is maybe have aiming get worse the faster you are moving.
So we have a person who on nskill is at say 70 speed. Stationary his target ret is say 3cm wide as is for everyone. if walking it goes up to 3.5cm, if running 4.5cm or whatever the normal is.
Now a person with 90 speed stationary is 3cm, walking maybe 3.7cm, running 5.5cm.
These are random numbers and the speed in which the target lock on closes would of course be down to your aiming skill and staying on the target, but with a larger circle it means that you would need longer to fully lock on to the target.
Again though with the above it could end up penalising people for being fast and people would look for sweet spots on the speed to mean they didnt get as much penalty. So the negative would need to happen only after X ammount of speed rather than vs any movement.
I swear this thread is going crazy and people are trying to over complicate things. I don't like quoting myself but I think people need reminded of the simple option that appeared to work in nc1 & 2.
Soft cap on runspeed and have weapons affecting your run speed properly when drawn like they used to. Heavy weapons having the highest speed reduction when drawn and melee and spells the least.
From greatest to least speed reduction while drawn would be something like:
Heavy > Rifle > Pistol > Melee > Spells (then maybe tools and the like)
Please bear in mind that, we also really need weapon damage balanced so that resists and armor work as they should.
Arista Barret
25-02-13, 03:43
I hAve alot of notes on setups. I also know the best fighting setups. point being, runspeed to compliment your style is the first choice you make. then you choose the best resists you feel comfortable with. All that after choosing a gun i should have said. The current patch changed runspeed to hyperspeed. the balance before was very well done even after looking last things like the dissy. Change runspeed because the pvp sucks now. you are either fast as fuck and top 5% aim...or you get wasted. not exactly a good environment for building pvp.
I have a Fraps video of a fight between me and a very good PvPer (melee tank vs HC tank) which lasted somewhere around 20 minutes. During the fight, he had to go buy more ammo (twice I think), and I had to fill my melee tanks QB up with stam boosters three times. We were both so incredibly fast that we couldn't hit one another. We ended up getting bored and calling it a day when both of our second lot of drugs wore off.
Even if I managed to land 6-8 consecutive swings with the hurler knuckles and he landed a couple of shots with the ionic cannon, a simple burst of the heal tool and a medikit and you're outhealing any incoming damage as long as you keep the stamina up, and keep moving.
As it stands right now, speed is everything. Speed should not be THE most important factor in determining the result of a fight, but it really is. I don't even see slower players as a threat any more. Even if a person's aim is superb they're going to struggle hitting a melee tank with a runspeed of 102 (NSkill v2) who knows how to move erratically. Even if they do the impossible and land 50% of their shots, their slower speed will mean I land more like 80% of my shots, and they die.
I'd love to see what a true runspeed softcap does to the PvP dynamics.
Arista Barret
27-02-13, 10:17
Edited by Falk.exe
The thing is that the dynamics of PVP gameplay has drastically changed, since the current runspeed was implemented.
We went from a slow-moving game, where aiming was more important than dodging, to a fast-moving game, were dodging is more important than anythig else.
The PVP gameplay needs to be streamlined and emphasis needs to be put in resists again. The PVP gameplay shouldnt change in such huge leaps.
Arista Barret
27-02-13, 17:41
The thing is that the dynamics of PVP gameplay has drastically changed, since the current runspeed was implemented.
We went from a slow-moving game, where aiming was more important than dodging, to a fast-moving game, were dodging is more important than anythig else.
The PVP gameplay needs to be streamlined and emphasis needs to be put in resists again. The PVP gameplay shouldnt change in such huge leaps.
Why is this not completely fkn obvious to the devs? What's the point of this thread? To give us something to talk about while they work on changes they are already making?
I have a Fraps video of a fight between me and a very good PvPer (melee tank vs HC tank) which lasted somewhere around 20 minutes. During the fight, he had to go buy more ammo (twice I think),
Then neither of you are good pvpers :)
sorry dude to allow reality to crash around you, but to say something like that with no backup and then allow 20 min fight to happen is a joke. It's almost as bad as Arrista barret claiming he knows all the best setups.
forcing soft caps is not something I would like to see in this game, i think it does make the game easier and appeal to more people but I think the issue is that It also blurrs the line between good bad and average players that little bit more.
The changes suggested on brainport I would argue are so much better than people asking for a runspeed cap, Particulary people looking at ways of re-implementing para and making freeze weapons useful, obviously tuned down from what it was. That, in my opinion is the best option for the future.
Arista Barret
27-02-13, 18:50
Then neither of you are good pvpers :)
sorry dude to allow reality to crash around you, but to say something like that with no backup and then allow 20 min fight to happen is a joke. It's almost as bad as Arrista barret claiming he knows all the best setups.
forcing soft caps is not something I would like to see in this game, i think it does make the game easier and appeal to more people but I think the issue is that It also blurrs the line between good bad and average players that little bit more.
The changes suggested on brainport I would argue are so much better than people asking for a runspeed cap, Particulary people looking at ways of re-implementing para and making freeze weapons useful, obviously tuned down from what it was. That, in my opinion is the best option for the future.
the line should be blurred. the distinction between good player and better fighter should not be so far apart. When i say i know the best setups...i am referring to the setups used by the guys who walk into fight zones and cannot be ran off. they are the best fighting the best. i do have their setups written down. the only reason to hide your awesome setup is because you are haxx imo.
Then neither of you are good pvpers :)
sorry dude to allow reality to crash around you, but to say something like that with no backup and then allow 20 min fight to happen is a joke. It's almost as bad as Arrista barret claiming he knows all the best setups.
Sorry Loki, But I have to agree with Wargolem here.. A one vs. one should NEVER last 20 mins..
"Max-speed" setup vs. "Max-speed" setup (which are the fights, that last the longest usually) should at the VERY most last 3-4 mins.
Chuck Norris
27-02-13, 19:47
Cap run speed imo, different per class? CHEATERS are way to powerful with insane run speed
Snip
I would edit that message if I were you..
Anyways.. No, Im very much against a hard-cap, but I think a soft-cap would be a very good idea.
Chuck Norris
27-02-13, 19:57
I would edit that message if I were you..
Anyways.. No, Im very much against a hard-cap, but I think a soft-cap would be a very good idea.
Why its true?
Why its true?
Perhaps. But it is still not something to talk about on the forum..
Not only is it not allowed, it is also bad for the game (newbs seeing threads like this, can quickly start to fear the worst).
Mod; feel free to delete this reply if needed.
Chuck Norris
27-02-13, 21:22
Perhaps. But it is still not something to talk about on the forum..
Not only is it not allowed, it is also bad for the game (newbs seeing threads like this, can quickly start to fear the worst).
Mod; feel free to delete this reply if needed.
BS, its a problem regardless how you feel. Dont ignore it, thats basically why this thread was started i suspect.
I think walker is talking shit. 4 speed drugs will make any fast setup get to the warp-choppy state in which we ser a lot of runners nowadys.
As I said before, people see what people are. Chomp on this for a few mins Walker.
Dribble Joy
28-02-13, 01:25
As it stands right now, speed is everything. Speed should not be THE most important factor in determining the result of a fight, but it really is.
Indeed. PvP viability needs to be a choice between speed, resists and damage (with player skill layered over the whole lot).
As it is, going for the latter two is not a 'viable' option.
It also doesn't help when some weapons are insane. I got into a fight with a dizzy spy the other day: I have 60 resist energy (don't have a PPR at the moment), 70 energy armour (more on the body), PE shields and I still dropped in less than one clip.
Indeed. PvP viability needs to be a choice between speed, resists and damage (with player skill layered over the whole lot).
As it is, going for the latter two is not a 'viable' option.
It also doesn't help when some weapons are insane. I got into a fight with a dizzy spy the other day: I have 60 resist energy (don't have a PPR at the moment), 70 energy armour (more on the body), PE shields and I still dropped in less than one clip.
And this is why Im against any sort of speed nerf before some sort of balancing..
@Kame: Im not sure what your talking about? Is it that I said that a one vs. one should last more than a couple of minutes? It shouldnt.. Even when my enemies have a ppu up their ass, it rarely takes longer than that.. Its only the fights where there is multiple people it starts to take longer, since your reticle keeps on getting fucked by others..
Actually i was adressing chuck norris, so disregard that, dropout.
Actually i was adressing chuck norris, so disregard that, dropout.
Ah fair enough, dont call him Walker then! ;)
DeathCultLegion
01-03-13, 13:28
So aslong as Neocron wants to stay a logical no more elves Game - There should be a softcap runspeed but within limitations of their class and that would need a certain point of balancing classes as a whole.
I'll explain:
Tank: A brute and big genetically enhanced warmachine - strong and very good resistance against DMG. So let the Tank be the sturdiest and strongest character in-game with the best armor and DMG mitigation. It's only logical that he cant be the fastest in-game. His DMG should be above average
Spy: a thin, intelligent and extraordinary dexterous class that is supposed to use the strongest Pistols/rifles/drones in-game. As long as agility is in the Dexterity Skill -> he should be the fastest character possible - although he is a very good DMG-Dealer - he should be the weakest as it comes to DMG-Mitigation.
PE: The average Joe : average in everything but he's don't superior in any Skill. So he should be a little faster than a gen-tank, as he has more Dex. he is supposed to be the low-tech-king.
Monk: slow and weak - but he is incredible powerful in PSI and Intelligence - should be the slowest and weakest class but also the class with the most DMG in-game possible
Idea is simple: We should set a realistic run-speed soft-cap so the more you skill in AGI/ATL the less its effective. BUT - the main skills DEX and CON - should be a factor that goes as well as AGI/ATL and weight in our calculation for Run-speed.
So if we conclude that 100 DEX and 100 Agility and 100 CON and 100 ATL are the fastest possible run-speed with a soft-cap at 75% at the values we set before. This would mean the best you could archive is 100% but it would be very expensive - in terms of economical skill distribution a value between 75% and 100% would be the best choice but would get less and less effective on the way to 100%.
i think humanly possible would be a runspeed of 35mph in the far future of the 29th century.
As Usain Bolt the fastest Sprinter known today reaches nearly 28mph it should give us an idea.
first: Running Away (if loosing - lame,boring and not very explainable that a character near death could easyl escape with warpspeed)
second: The fastest char wins, as he's nearly/impossible to hit
third: there is no way to slow down a char with a spell/weapon except hitting their legs (aslong as you cant hit them in the legs they cant be slowed) - we need slows, stuns and debuffs to provide a suitable PvP expirience.
What do the 3 Things above mean: The faster classes dominate and they fear a balancing, because they do have an unfair advantage right now.
NC should provide good gameplay/gametactics/skillsetups for everyone and not for just one good nearly unbeatable setup of one class that easily kills everything else.
What the dev team should implement:
1 .softcap the runspeed
2. after that find a way to slow down fights
3.PvP consists of tactic, Aiming, DMG mitigation through skills/armor, slowing down the enemy and kill him (thats how it should be)
today PvP just consists of aiming and movement (no more resistance setups, armor is more or less useless as it get shot through after the first pair of hits)
4. Consider to get Endurance more in the calculation (the faster you run, the earlier you run out of endurance - except you have many points in endurance)
just my two cents
Powerpunsh
01-03-13, 13:31
You forgot the monk. Just low dex/con. :)
William Antrim
01-03-13, 13:36
People who are near death naturally slow down.
We do NOT need slows/stuns etc as you said.
APUs should be akin to spies in terms of damage output/resistances.
speedcapping runspeed will naturally slow down the fights without any further need.
One thing at a time bro.
These are my immediate reactions to your post. The rest of it I liked.
Personally I would like to see drawn weapons have a runspeed nerf if nothing else. I think Tanks (having the best damage soak ability) should be the slowest. However I do not want to see anyone nerfed.
DeathCultLegion
01-03-13, 13:52
People who are near death naturally slow down.
We do NOT need slows/stuns etc as you said.
Its a tactical element and it should be possible to slow down or stun for a short duration of time
APUs should be akin to spies in terms of damage output/resistances.
No, Spys cant do the same High DMG except they spare their runspeed - but it is unlikely a spy would take a bit more dmg to reach the APU-DMG and spare the quickness
speedcapping runspeed will naturally slow down the fights without any further need.
it wont slow down fights - it will make them faster as before as the people will get hit again - only the movements would be slower - thats a big difference
One thing at a time bro.
I agree - but we need to find a start
These are my immediate reactions to your post. The rest of it I liked.
Personally I would like to see drawn weapons have a runspeed nerf if nothing else. I think Tanks (having the best damage soak ability) should be the slowest. However I do not want to see anyone nerfed.
i think we already have a runspeedmalus on drawn tank weapons (my tank slows down if i draw a cannon and its totally fine - next thing to do - considerate the runspeedmalus of a drawn weapon if your skills let it barely use it - the runspeedmalus would be great - if you would exceed the required skills of the weapon by far - the runspeedmalus should decrease
that are my ideas on your thoughts :)
William Antrim
01-03-13, 14:01
Stuns kill pvp. No dude. Been there done that. Dead against it.
- APU and Spy have different damage output due to their skillset (PSI vs Dex) but I bet you a pound to a pinch of shit their con set ups and agility stats will be akin to one another. Hence why I made the comment. Look at their stat distribution. Apu has less strength and more con but all in all they are as close to one another as they can be.
I am not gonna attempt to decipher your comment about runspeed.
Runspeed malus based on the overspeccing requirement to use a weapon - a MASSIVE NO from me. Too complicated to work out and scale. Just have a simplistic flat cap and go from there.
No it would be a fucking noob-I-Win spell..
Ever since Para was removed, it has been possible to do 1 vs 10-20 (depending on their skill ofc) fights, and come out on top. With slowdowns or even worse stuns, as you mention, this would no longer be possible..
Without Para/stun, the game can keep on being a game where you need SKILL to win.
this too!
People who are near death naturally slow down.
We do NOT need slows/stuns etc as you said.
Its a tactical element and it should be possible to slow down or stun for a short duration of time
No it would be a fucking noob-I-Win spell..
Ever since Para was removed, it has been possible to do 1 vs 10-20 (depending on their skill ofc) fights, and come out on top. With slowdowns or even worse stuns, as you mention, this would no longer be possible..
Without Para/stun, the game can keep on being a game where you need SKILL to win.
If run speed was soft capped again, then the run speed malus with a drawn would work again as intended, rather than being trivial like it is now.
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