WoC. The lack of style in a genre defined by style. (12 year player/vet)

[Model192]

I have observed the psychological affect of "tiers" in two separate cyberpunk games, and it has ruined one and is on its way to ruin another one. One being Neocron, and one being a pen and paper of similar caliber of greatness (CyberSphere). These games have both introduced "tiers", whether meaning to or not. The issue with Neocron, however, is WoC. Though WoC is a problem, it is merely a microcosm of balancing as a whole, and current con/weapon workings, which I will post about in another thread.

WoC has introduced a "tier" system into the game world of Neocron. From Beta 2 and on to NC1 and pre-WoC it was all about ripping the LE out and going nuts with whatever you had. It wasn't a crazy slaughter-fest, it was a world of nervousness but respect. Why? Because LE carried an XP penalty with it. I will cover the XP penalty toward the end, and push to why it is needed and what the goal of this particular malus was for.

First, let's look at Cyberpunk. It's a cut-throat world, man meets machine. This world is ruled by corporations and their minions(clans), serving their purposes of creating the war machine to fund. They fight for money, power, and dominance over manufacturing. The world of Cyberpunk is usually filled with haves, and have nots. In the world of Neocron we are all playing a "have". We have access to all the power and weaponry we could imagine. In a sense we "work" for our organizations. We kill each other on the street for a few cred, we stab people in the back. We lie, cheat, and steal to get ahead. That's Cyberpunk. Cyberpunk is defined by style, attitude, and we're all supposed to be badasses at whatever we do and however we choose to do it.

Now, establishing that we are all "haves", we have now created a system within the "haves"; haves and have-nots. This effectively splits the playerbase of Spies and PEs from players who want to play and PVP(dex). If you pull your LE out before it's time to help out in OP fights you're taking a huge risk that could make going WoC even more time consuming. There aren't any worthwhile weapons for these two "races" under WoC. Hell, PE has probably been the worst that I've ever seen in Neocron right now; I know, I WoC'd one. Without his LE in. Unfortunately now it's cap, or not. If you're not capped, the LE stays in. There is no reason to take it out, not at all. Many in this playerbase view their viability in PVP as slim to none, and with good reason, they're not.

In Cyberpunk it's about the style. Any of the weapons that a bad ass decides to pick up he should be just about equally as good with. It's not style when you have to crunch numbers and see what's the best. I should be just as bad ass with an Xbow as with a SWAT Backup gun. After the weapons reach a certain tier they need to level out within reason, and for nothing else other than style in CYBERPUNK. I don't mean they all aim the same/do the same damage/fire rate, all that. But, they should all be equally as viable. Tanks should be equal to PE equal to APU equal to Spy in a rock/paper/scissors/stealth/gun sort of way. I miss taking my shotgun and 4 chevs and causing havoc for the capped players in pepper park. I miss that a lot.

The game built legends before, as cyberpunk games do, now it's just a joke.


This is a GREAT cyberpunk reference for broad ideas of "balance" and gameplay types. http://cs.netsville.com

[Doc Holliday]

Interesting post. I liked the plateau idea regards woc weapons and damage etc. That arguement has been made several times that woc broke neocron as we know it. WoC weapons should be about style points. they shouldnt be the necessity to compete. All i can add to it really.

[Torg]

i definitely agree, and salute this well-written post. i'd even be with you on the LE question, but we would need to talk about, and rebbalance, the PvP penalty system to make this work. and i feel a "bring down the WOC damage peak" movement coming.

[nabbl]

I like this post.

WoC has to be adjusted!

[Netphreak]

The damage bonus for WoC weapons needs to be brought down to the same level (or possibly even lower level as the weapons are easier to obtain) as the damage bonus for rare weapons.
Of course this is assuming that weapon damage is balanced around TL and the curve is flattened to allow lower TL weapons to be viable again.

[Dropout]

Very well thought out post Model192. I couldnt agree more with your post tbh.

[William Antrim]

I have completely changed my opinion of you based on that post. I would be very interested to read more. It is very insightful.

[[F6]Knight]

The damage bonus for WoC weapons needs to be brought down to the same level (or possibly even lower level as the weapons are easier to obtain) as the damage bonus for rare weapons.

I don't agree with this. WOC weapons should follow the same damage / TL curve as rares.
The weapons might be easier to get, but the WOC level and disc can take a lot of more time / effort than getting most rares.

You can go solo warbots or firemobs and trade / sell the parts you don't need to get parts / money for what you do need. You can't buy XP to get your WOC level.

[Deus Ex Machina]

Someone correct me if I am wrong please, but as far as I know the "theoretical" WOC Bonus isn't large.
The problem is that the WOC weapons, as well as ... well I'd say ALL other weapons are not really in line with their supposed TL determined effectiveness.
So in theory a TL 100 WOC weapon would be 0,5% more effective than a TL 100 Rare Weapon, and 1,5% less effective than a TL 100 Tech Rare Weapon.
That the state of the game doesn't reflect this doesn't mean the system is broken, but the implemention is. Very broken.

Here the link to the numbers I dug for:
http://forum.neocron-game.com/showthread.php?139053-Balancing-Patch-162-Explanation

[Netphreak]

Someone correct me if I am wrong please, but as far as I know the "theoretical" WOC Bonus isn't large.
The problem is that the WOC weapons, as well as ... well I'd say ALL other weapons are not really in line with their supposed TL determined effectiveness.
So in theory a TL 100 WOC weapon would be 0,5% more effective than a TL 100 Rare Weapon, and 1,5% less effective than a TL 100 Tech Rare Weapon.
That the state of the game doesn't reflect this doesn't mean the system is broken, but the implemention is. Very broken.

Here the link to the numbers I dug for:
http://forum.neocron-game.com/showthread.php?139053-Balancing-Patch-162-Explanation

I was under the impression that Rare's got a 10% damage bonus for their TL and WoC weapons got 15% damage bonus for their TL.
I could be mistaken though, can't quite remember where I read it.

[Dribble Joy]

It's something like that. The real problem is that some of the WoC weapons are way beyond it. But then of course you have the dizzy and other things.

[Izeo]

I also don't like the idea of extra tier (which is seemingly unreachable to me), but isn't anyone else bugged (also) by the visual style of WoC? They are re-skins of the normal powerarmor, which isn't a problem by itself (I mean that some re-skins can look absolutely fine), but these re-skins are kind of amateur. It gets worse when you combine a WoC armor with a WoC weapon - black tech armor with neon light stripes, with an AK47? Shouldn't they match?

[Model192]

i definitely agree, and salute this well-written post. i'd even be with you on the LE question, but we would need to talk about, and rebbalance, the PvP penalty system to make this work. and i feel a "bring down the WOC damage peak" movement coming.

You need to stop looking at PVP as a penalty system and more of an eternal war machine in which needs to be funded. It(LEs) needs to go back to a risk vs. reward system instead of a system of just arbitrary protection.

Risk vs. Reward should always turn the gears of war in a game.

[Torg]

ah, case of misunderstanding. please take my line "the PvP penalty system" as in soullight- and faction-symp losses from abusing PvP mechanics too much. if we'd ever go for LE penalties (less money/xp/damage) we'd have to balance that by stricter, harsher rules on killing allieds etc. imho NC should not turn into a all-vs-all combat shooter MMO. i'd really like to keep those RP elements.

[L0KI]

I completely agree. Great post.

As much as I don't like changing the subject, this reminds me.

Someone in our clan had a great idea earlier today. That idea was to limit LE users to something like 90% of total cap (a spy would cap at 90 INT/DEX, 36 CON, etc etc until the LE was removed). That way, people could LE their way up to near-max from low level, but wouldn't be able to hog the areas like Mc5, which quite frankly, should be competitive. Clans should be able to do battle over these rare parts and this territory. You can argue the playstyle stuff all you like, but this would bring such a huge level of excitement to the game.

Another idea is to prevent LE'd characters from having WoC at all.

Regarding PvP/Soul light penalties, I'd love to see an arrest and prison system implemented at some point. That would be excellent. It wouldn't even need to be complex; kill a player with negative soul light, and they're sent to prison until it hits a positive number, thus taking them out of the game.

[William Antrim]

I was thinking lower than 90% to be honest because they could still do it at 90%.

I think that they should have a cap of like 75%-85% of total stats perhaps. This way MC5 and other high end content is not reachable but they can still enjoy plenty of the benefits of nc and have fun playing.

[Powerpunsh]

In my optinion there are 3 reasons at all why weapons are the way they are.

1. We got different bonuses on each weapon types. lowtech, hightech, rare, woc.
2. Since 2.2 everything is balanced by its TL so the gap between TL 95 and TL 115 weapons is too high which results in useless lowrares.
3. As i already pointed out (http://forum.neocron-game.com/showthread.php?145593-Discussion-Weapon-Balancing) weapons have an irreproducible, illogical and unequal efficiency. Since 2.2 all weapons were TL balanced based on 3 factors: frequency, damage and reloadtime. So the damage over time value grows with the techlevel linear. Why are some weapons just more effective in pvp? Out of my view lowtech rares should be adjusted up and hightechs adjusted down so we become every rareweapon on the same level. Bring WoC weapons on rare status and done. :)

[Dropout]

Regarding PvP/Soul light penalties, I'd love to see an arrest and prison system implemented at some point. That would be excellent. It wouldn't even need to be complex; kill a player with negative soul light, and they're sent to prison until it hits a positive number, thus taking them out of the game.
That is a.. HORRIBLE idea.. Im sorry mate, but thats probably one of the worst ideas regarding SL I've ever heard..
So because someone had been "naughty" for a couple of hours, they shouldnt be able to use their character for like a month?
You ARE aware of how long it takes SL to go from -100 to 0, without doing missions, right?

If someone is being an ass, Im gonna kill him, 'allied' or not. Shouldnt make me take a month break from the game though..

[Doc Holliday]

I had flashbacks of Jailbreak from UT2k4 reading rabbis post. Interesting thought. I would like to twist it slightly though and say rather than jail how about a bounty system thats automatic (thinking of your thread on cm punk) rather than manually paid out.


Glad to see everyones in total agreement regards the woc thing anyway. Its not like a few years ago when 10 people played and 9 of em said you dont need woc to pvp get a disruptor......... :rolleyes:

[Nameless111]

It could be so easy to fix the penalty system... In my opinion: If you have too much minus faction symp your faction pull you out and you getting forced to leave your clan too. You become an Anarchy Breed and have to wait 1 week to become a member of a normal faction again. In this time you can't enter NC without get shoted by the copbots. As Anarchy Breed you can't form a clan and there shouldn't be much shops or other secure places. done.

[nabbl]

It could be so easy to fix the penalty system... In my opinion: If you have too much minus faction symp your faction pull you out and you getting forced to leave your clan too. You become an Anarchy Breed and have to wait 1 week to become a member of a normal faction again. In this time you can't enter NC without get shoted by the copbots. As Anarchy Breed you can't form a clan and there shouldn't be much shops or other secure places. done.

Would be absolutely awesome!

[Torg]

It could be so easy to fix the penalty system... In my opinion: If you have too much minus faction symp your faction pull you out and you getting forced to leave your clan too. You become an Anarchy Breed and have to wait 1 week to become a member of a normal faction again. In this time you can't enter NC without get shoted by the copbots. As Anarchy Breed you can't form a clan and there shouldn't be much shops or other secure places. done.great! lets develop this further!

[nabbl]

made a thread for it:

http://forum.neocron-game.com/showthread.php?147179-Adjusting-the-Penalty-System-by-including-Anarchy-Breed-faction

[Model192]

You guys want to make a dumbass jailbreak topic do it somewhere else and stop derailing from my main points.

[Torg]

You guys want to make a dumbass jailbreak topic do it somewhere else and stop derailing from my main points.forked. (see above)

[Deus Ex Machina]

I was under the impression that Rare's got a 10% damage bonus for their TL and WoC weapons got 15% damage bonus for their TL.
I could be mistaken though, can't quite remember where I read it.I am sure you read that somewhere, i think those where the original numbers, but they were deemed to high and brought down to the numbers in the thread I linked:
- HighTech 2.0 Percent (additive)
- Rare 7.5 Percent (exclusive)
- Epic 8.0 Percent (exclusive)
- WoC 8.0 Percent (exclusive)

At least, as said, theoretical. A ight Tech wepon must give more damage (or other bonuses) than a Low Tech one, thats for sure, since there are invested points to use the weapon. I remember that shortly after the balancing all Single Target Ray Weapons (e.g. Ray of Lat Hope) were horribly overpowered. I also remember threads in the balancing that marked gatling weapons as extremely underpowered. Today the situation is a bit different again.
To fix this, I think four things have to be done:

1) Change weapons whichs hits don't register sometimes
2) If N° 1 is done, use damage, frequency (including frequency of reload) and handling to balance the weapons TL and bonus wise
3) Let it be tested and reproduce feedback before making changes.
4) Monitor use of weapons in PvP and aks the players, if some weapons aren't used, why.

[Powerpunsh]

You guys want to make a dumbass jailbreak topic do it somewhere else and stop derailing from my main points.

That is annoying me shitloads on this forum at the moment... Same divagations every month on every thread... Nothing new in my opinion. The brainport is probably filled up with the same ideas 3-4 times. Discussing stuff all over again wont do it any better.

I would like to know what our devs are doing at the moment and what they are working on. It became a bit silent. :)

[Ivan Eres]

That is annoying me shitloads on this forum at the moment... Same divagations every month on every thread... Nothing new in my opinion. The brainport is probably filled up with the same ideas 3-4 times. Discussing stuff all over again wont do it any better.

How about summing them up then, maybe in a separate thread of yours? That would be helpful. Thank you.

[L0KI]

Quick off topic bit :
That is a.. HORRIBLE idea.. Im sorry mate, but thats probably one of the worst ideas regarding SL I've ever heard..
So because someone had been "naughty" for a couple of hours, they shouldnt be able to use their character for like a month?
You ARE aware of how long it takes SL to go from -100 to 0, without doing missions, right?

If someone is being an ass, Im gonna kill him, 'allied' or not. Shouldnt make me take a month break from the game though..

Calm yourself down, Walker. ;) I was sort of day-dreaming about possibilities, I was hardly completely serious. It's certainly not something that should be implemented into the current NC.

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Back on topic :

When it was first pitched to me back in the day, WoC was intended to be a style thing; a claim to fame; just another way of showing people how cool you were.

Your overall point here, Model, is something I also feel very strongly about.

I've campaigned for the old models back. I've campaigned for a change in the fonts (as even the character name adds to it). I've campaigned for far more weapons to be made viable. I've also campaigned for the ability to be able to change the colour of my clothes again. I've even gone as far as crying for NO PA.

Why?

My wishes for these changes were all in the interests of aesthetics.

When I remember back to the 'legends' you speak of, I remember;

Hivemind with his white hair, sunglasses and pain easer.
XaNToR, the African American guy dressed in dark purple clothing using a purple-beemed RoG.

I could go on, but I think I have made my point. My memories of legends were based around a number of things; not just their ability.

Neocron lost a huge part of its charm when these things were taken away. Whilst I agree with you that WoC is a contributing factor, I believe the other aspects are equally to blame.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The issues here are two-fold. One, we have an absolute imbalance in weaponry, resulting in vast amounts of clones, and two, we are literally and aesthetically clones of one another.

Biggest immersion killer NC has seen, in my opinion.

[Netphreak]

Quick off topic bit :

Calm yourself down, Walker. ;) I was sort of day-dreaming about possibilities, I was hardly completely serious. It's certainly not something that should be implemented into the current NC.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Back on topic :

When it was first pitched to me back in the day, WoC was intended to be a style thing; a claim to fame; just another way of showing people how cool you were.

Your overall point here, Model, is something I also feel very strongly about.

I've campaigned for the old models back. I've campaigned for a change in the fonts (as even the character name adds to it). I've campaigned for far more weapons to be made viable. I've also campaigned for the ability to be able to change the colour of my clothes again. I've even gone as far as crying for NO PA.

Why?

My wishes for these changes were all in the interests of aesthetics.

When I remember back to the 'legends' you speak of, I remember;

Hivemind with his white hair, sunglasses and pain easer.
XaNToR, the African American guy dressed in dark purple clothing using a purple-beemed RoG.

I could go on, but I think I have made my point. My memories of legends were based around a number of things; not just their ability.

Neocron lost a huge part of its charm when these things were taken away. Whilst I agree with you that WoC is a contributing factor, I believe the other aspects are equally to blame.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The issues here are two-fold. One, we have an absolute imbalance in weaponry, resulting in vast amounts of clones, and two, we are literally and aesthetically clones of one another.

Biggest immersion killer NC has seen, in my opinion.
This. Sums it all up tbh.

[Doc Holliday]

Quick off topic bit :

Calm yourself down, Walker. ;) I was sort of day-dreaming about possibilities, I was hardly completely serious. It's certainly not something that should be implemented into the current NC.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Back on topic :

When it was first pitched to me back in the day, WoC was intended to be a style thing; a claim to fame; just another way of showing people how cool you were.

Your overall point here, Model, is something I also feel very strongly about.

I've campaigned for the old models back. I've campaigned for a change in the fonts (as even the character name adds to it). I've campaigned for far more weapons to be made viable. I've also campaigned for the ability to be able to change the colour of my clothes again. I've even gone as far as crying for NO PA.

Why?

My wishes for these changes were all in the interests of aesthetics.

When I remember back to the 'legends' you speak of, I remember;

Hivemind with his white hair, sunglasses and pain easer.
XaNToR, the African American guy dressed in dark purple clothing using a purple-beemed RoG.

I could go on, but I think I have made my point. My memories of legends were based around a number of things; not just their ability.

Neocron lost a huge part of its charm when these things were taken away. Whilst I agree with you that WoC is a contributing factor, I believe the other aspects are equally to blame.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The issues here are two-fold. One, we have an absolute imbalance in weaponry, resulting in vast amounts of clones, and two, we are literally and aesthetically clones of one another.

Biggest immersion killer NC has seen, in my opinion.


Yup. Totally. Heres my ten cents. my two cents is free.