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Dope
21-01-13, 01:35
When Neocron launched, in those halcyon days, there was a mechanic that offered greater XP rewards for those without LE's.

This mechanic was clearly aimed at getting players to pull their "newb chip" as soon as they felt comfortable with the mechanics of the world, specifically to create a fertile bed for PvP (yes, even ganking, as that meant that Tradeskillers would remain in "safe" places in the city and build empires there, but wouldn't frequent dangerous places because they were, in fact, dangerous.) This was a way that theme and intended player behaviors were 'built-in' to the mechanics of the game.

I am aware that it's frustrating to be summarily executed by a rival faction member, but PvP in a dystopic cyberpunk world is a core element and intent of this game, and the fear of being rumbled by a rival gang is what the TS/BD conflict or the TG-FA/City factions conflict is based on. I am well aware that populations were intended to be much higher, and spreading these factions (that were intended to be insular, and at war) out too thin was a large part of this games initial collapse - but I believe that theme is still valuable. It has been whittled away by degrees over the years to the point where LE protected runners may now behave with a WoW/EQ like impunity, going anywhere they want with no regard to the other players around them. That's sad.

If I remember correctly, at that same time in development, LE's simply didn't work in all locations (like outside the city), so even with one in the runner still had to be conscious of their surroundings and nervous of rivals. This is simply lost from the game now.

Thus, I propose reinstating the XP bonus for non-LE'd runners, to create incentive for runners to expose themselves to more risk in exchange for more reward. This will still allow those that don't want to fight, but also don't want to RP their faction (i.e. Pro-city factions leveling in Pepper Park or the Wastes rather than in their intended, protected locations in the city.) to play in their protective "Alone/Together" bubble, while creating incentive to play the game as it was originally intended, fostering a dystopian world of street gangs and corporate hitmen.

Can we discuss this without name calling or troll statements, please? Only helpful comments appreciated :) Thanks.

Doc Holliday
21-01-13, 01:56
similar arguements have been put forth over the past months with similar sentiments as yours. I liked the Wow/EQ impunity reference because its true. LE players do have it like that. Lots of different ideas were put forward to incentivise the removal of the LE but too many people talk of the mythical 'BIG BAD PKERS' that will come get em when they remove the LE.

The truth is no one bothers to go pking because most people dont remove the LE. this would take a while for it to change too and by then im sure most people playing would have an idea who the pkers are and would deal with them appropriately. ie in a group with a length of rope and a tree :)

as i have mentioned before in plenty of other threads i would support this idea of an incentive to remove it. Let people have a choice and dont punish anyone for not removing it. just reward the ones who do.

Kame
21-01-13, 02:51
Making the chip behave like any other chip ingame, ie. takes damage over time, can pop out at death, can be repaired. Not BPable.

With a XP malus if you keep it in.

NO to LE players acting with impunity

Torg
21-01-13, 07:22
kame, do you really want to trade "LE players acting with impunity" for "non-LE players acting with impunity"? unless you or someone else will come up with a more balanced approach to non-consensual PvP.... nothing is going to change here. ok. fine.

Dope
21-01-13, 07:53
Well, currently, non-LE runners do not have impunity (in that there are safe zones they cannot grief in that are enforced by code) - whereas there are no restrictions at all on LE'd runners. That isn't fair and balanced, is it?

In the old days there were even more "safe areas" than there are now, I think?

Doc Holliday
21-01-13, 08:14
people complaining about trade skillers getting ganked. even back in the days the traders had no le. you get a clan member to help you if u need something.

if its such a huge issue then simply make via rosso 1 and 2 and plaza 2 and 4 safe zones. that covers all the major HQs and therefore the stores around them for easy access for trade skillers (except DRE). or if u wish make via 3 a safe zone (ncpd hq is there) leave the others free. it has a gr in the old chez cypher after all.

Izeo
21-01-13, 09:41
Well, currently, non-LE runners do not have impunity (in that there are safe zones they cannot grief in that are enforced by code) - whereas there are no restrictions at all on LE'd runners. That isn't fair and balanced, is it?
What outcomes are you making a comparison of, to say that it is unbalanced? Like, if a non-LE ganks another non-LE, there is a definite "victory" and "defeat" for both players. But, if you (without LE) encounter an LE runner, you surely don't consider that an automatic "victory" for the LE and a "defeat" for yourself, right?

Surfer
21-01-13, 11:36
Many games with pvp have this problem, they want to find a balance between the all out carebears will to play the game in a more PVE fashion and on the other hand the hard core PVPers that has the idea that if everyone is forced to pvp then all will be perfect.

The truth is that if any of the games with balance in this would remove all their game mechanics that prevent a pvper to gank anyone they feel like ganking they would probably loose players.
In the same way that if they would lock down all form of pvp they would also loose players...
Thing is some of the normal PVE players have a certain feel for pvp and the other way around, so the balance is there to get those carebears to venture into pvp.

I can admit that i am more of a carebear then i am a pvper. While i level at least.
I DONT think we need to nerf the LE or restrict it more.. rather less.
I DO think that we need bonuses that gives people incentives to venture into the pvp part of NC.
With that said:

Bring back the xp bonus for non-LE players.
Not sure what it used to be but having a 20-30% bonus of exp when having a LE out is a nice bonus.

Why not give bonuses for participating in pvp, Give a pvp kill exp?

Make the rare part chance to drop a 20-30% increase if killer and partymembers are all without LE.
Here we need some sort of mechanic so that a LE player cant grief this by shooting at the same mob, should be doable though.


Maybe there are more things that could be added as bonuses to beeing without LE.

Next thing is to give people with LE a way to take the step and remove the LE easier... now dont flame this its just a suggestion...
Make it possible to reinstall the LE again regardless of level.
By making this more people will dare try pvp, and then get a taste of its advantages. Ok this will get exploited, but make the implant time ... 7 days?
I would probably take more of my characters into pvp for periods of time if i had a way to go back to LE again, as it is now i will only remove it on some of my characters.

Lastly, the talk about safe zones in Neocron. It seems to me that via and plaza zones should be safe zones, they do have the police there at least. I remember in the old days the zone between plaza 3 and pepper park 1 is where the zone hopping usually would be. And it sort of fits the description of PP.

/Surfer

Brammers
21-01-13, 13:29
I remember the LE at the start of NC1. For wearing the LE, I got less XP from levelling, and you got less money.

I soon got the tip to remove the LE to get more XP and money. However I don't see removing the LE as a bonus. I see it as wearing the LE as a penalty. So I think the thread title should be bring back the LE penalties, not the other way around.

Now one part of Neocron is PvP, the other part I see in these LE threads is people seem to forget is Neocron has a strong PvE element. There are players out there who want to explore and go hunting. They also maybe don't want to PvP. They also don't have the time to work out setups for PvP. (Let's face it, it's not easy)

There are also players who don't play that often as the rest of us. So do they want to get ganked when they go hunting? No. So what they do take their LE out? No they don't.

So what if we did bring back the XP penalty for wearing an LE? The result is these casual players are going to get bored again, and find the grinding the levels even worse. In other words the LE becomes a timesink. For casual players you don't want to make them put more time. They will get bored and leave the game, where we want them to stay.

Do we want these players leave because of the XP penalty/timesink? No I don't think we do.

Also one for the PvP'ers here? Would you prefer the player to cap and pull his LE out in a week, or will you get bored waiting an extra week for players to pull their LE out to PvP because of the XP penalty?

DR REED
21-01-13, 14:51
Mostly i agree with Brammers, but:

Now this is the another thread which issued the LE and Neocron.
Much was said here yet, very good analyzed, so that i need not t add it again.

From my point of view these statements are strongly valid:

1. There are enough drawbacks actual for the LE- no Clans, no belt hacking,....

2. Yes, definetely population will decrease if LE is removed or loaded with more penalties (as Brammers wrote)

3. A modification of the LE issue is only admissive with a complete overhauling of the Sl/Criminal-Watch-System. Otherwise NC is going only the way to a "gank-max" game, which would be very worse one. Hard to believe that optmized ganking mechanisms combined with an easily exploitable SL/ Criminal Watch system could be succesful (for Psychos only ::) )

So as i proposed we should keep calm and let this "new start" server Titan going evolve some weeks more and the number of non-LE'd players will grow, that's for sure. Some day we will have equilibrium as usual.

Reed

Dropout
21-01-13, 15:25
Just make WoC require that you dont have a LE in, and Im happy.. Few Things can get me more annoyed than someone in a WoC PA, who is LE'd.

Ivan Eres
21-01-13, 15:47
I'd say leave the LE as it is. No malus / bonus. There will always be people playing full PvE (and trade) or full PvP or a mix of both. Mostly the first group will leave their LE in.

It's interesting tho that many of the hardcore PvP people leave their LE in until they get near cap and have full equip or even WoC before they take it out...

danmalone
21-01-13, 16:08
Just make WoC require that you dont have a LE in, and Im happy.. Few Things can get me more annoyed than someone in a WoC PA, who is LE'd.

Give me a couple of weeks and you'll see some form of WoC LE'd character... I'm thinking tank or ppu – I did it on Terra so it’s only right that I do the same on the new server too :P

Personally, I like the LE the way it is mainly because I don't recall it changing in all the time since I started out.

Netphreak
21-01-13, 17:41
Just let people re-implant if they want with no rank restriction and I think you'd see more people willing to take it out in the first place.
That and a reduction in exp gain would give incentives to remove it but also the safety that pulling it isn't a do or die decision that can't be reversed.

Dropout
21-01-13, 18:36
Just let people re-implant if they want with no rank restriction and I think you'd see more people willing to take it out in the first place.
God no! I still remember back when LE's got bugged (acted like normal imps). The GMs allowed people to get their LEs in eventhough they were capped.. It created A LOT of griefers..

Jodo
21-01-13, 18:49
God no! I still remember back when LE's got bugged (acted like normal imps). The GMs allowed people to get their LEs in eventhough they were capped.. It created A LOT of griefers..


Exactly. People are whinging about runners acting with impunity now, imagine what they'll do if they can gank and pop the LE back in afterwards.

Netphreak
21-01-13, 19:09
Exactly. People are whinging about runners acting with impunity now, imagine what they'll do if they can gank and pop the LE back in afterwards.

You'd have to make it so only an NPC can re-implant it and there is a cooldown preventing you from getting it re-implanted say more than every 3-5 days or something.

Otherwise yes, it could get abused by those wanting to just grief.

William Antrim
21-01-13, 20:28
How many of you guys played NC1?

When noone had LE's in and someone shouted on help that they had been pked literally half the server turned up for a fight. People would actively go out and "police" levelling zones. Clans meant a LOT more back then and everyone joined a good one because they knew they would get looked after by their mates.

The amount of people on this server who absolutely LOVE a good fight is huge. You guys with your LE's in probably wont have experienced that side of NC yet but really there is a lot scope for this sort of RP in the game. You would find that if you took out your les and joined one of these clans (there are a lot of great ones even now) then you would get some help from your buddies no matter what time of day it is. There is always someone looking to even a score and bash some heads in.




Is it possible to switch the LE off in certain zones? Like war zone only? This might make a good half way house for people wanting to fight and retain their status of protection in other NON-war zones?

Ascension
21-01-13, 20:53
How many of you guys played NC1?

When noone had LE's in and someone shouted on help that they had been pked literally half the server turned up for a fight. People would actively go out and "police" levelling zones. Clans meant a LOT more back then and everyone joined a good one because they knew they would get looked after by their mates.

The amount of people on this server who absolutely LOVE a good fight is huge. You guys with your LE's in probably wont have experienced that side of NC yet but really there is a lot scope for this sort of RP in the game. You would find that if you took out your les and joined one of these clans (there are a lot of great ones even now) then you would get some help from your buddies no matter what time of day it is. There is always someone looking to even a score and bash some heads in.




Is it possible to switch the LE off in certain zones? Like war zone only? This might make a good half way house for people wanting to fight and retain their status of protection in other NON-war zones?

I played NC 1, and have fond memories of a pretty much LE free server, I levelled without an LE when I first started out, I remember the surge of adrenaline when seeing an enemy faction runner in the area, I remember being killed at low level and asking for help on help, I also joined a clan for support.

Dope
21-01-13, 21:31
Here's another observation.

Last night on Terra I saw LE'd runner(s) cruising Pepper Park and killing all of the BD contacts. Just on the mechanical side, this is troublesome because (as I've pointed out in the bug thread) these NPCs are necessary for BD missions, so players trying to level on delivery missions and the like are being griefed by this behavior, and the LE'd TS's are getting faction symp and xp for doing it - and there is nothing anyone else can do about it.

I asked the guy (in local) why he was killing our NPCs and not going after me (I'm of lower rank and probably would have been a pushover, but maybe not) - and was told, in all caps to "halts maul!" - which is pretty rude, and shows clearly that the attitude is one of privileged impunity - knowing that they were screwing us and thumbing their nose the whole time.

(This all ignores the RP aspect wherein your enemies are having a tailgate party on your lawn but you can't even chase them off.)

What do we do about that? Should LE'd runners be allowed to kill all of the rival NPC's in a zone? That sounds a lot like


What outcomes are you making a comparison of, to say that it is unbalanced? Like, if a non-LE ganks another non-LE, there is a definite "victory" and "defeat" for both players. But, if you (without LE) encounter an LE runner, you surely don't consider that an automatic "victory" for the LE and a "defeat" for yourself, right?

In this case, yes, it is that.

William Antrim
21-01-13, 21:43
I played NC 1, and have fond memories of a pretty much LE free server, I levelled without an LE when I first started out, I remember the surge of adrenaline when seeing an enemy faction runner in the area, I remember being killed at low level and asking for help on help, I also joined a clan for support.


Exactly my point. Which do you prefer? Titan or Pluto?

BetMonty
21-01-13, 21:53
What outcomes are you making a comparison of, to say that it is unbalanced? Like, if a non-LE ganks another non-LE, there is a definite "victory" and "defeat" for both players. But, if you (without LE) encounter an LE runner, you surely don't consider that an automatic "victory" for the LE and a "defeat" for yourself, right?

More than once I've seen LE'd players killing all the BD contacts so we can't finish our epics. What do I do about that? If they had their LE out, I could "self-correct" that behavior with a Gatling pistol and be done with it, right? But since they're LE'd the best I can do is complain about their grief. How often have you seen that work? :(

I dunno that any of that is en pointe though -- the original request was to reinstate the XP bonus for removing your LE. I understand an "LE for life" player feeling like they lose out, but that doesn't make it true: The additional XP bonus comes from shouldering the extra risk of PVP; it's not free. How is it fair that pulling my LE only makes me vulnerable to other players with little to no other benefit?

That's inequity, and it's something we can solve simply by reinstating the XP bonus. It hurts no one, but rewards those who decide to shoulder extra risk. Risk you benefit from, if you factor in OP bonuses, right? Why should my risk benefit you who has done nothing to earn it, isn't that unfair, too?

The easiest route to play, which is not necessarily the most fun to be clear, is to keep your LE in; without some other incentive to pull your LE you're disincentivizing PvP, plain and simple. Even in a game like WoW, PVP earns you gear and rewards you can't get any other way: recognition of and reward for the risk you take on is sort of core to the experience.

I am all for this suggestion. Bring back the XP bonus for unchipped players!

gostly
21-01-13, 21:53
One thing is clear. They have to address the LE chip in some way...

As it is right now there is absolutely no reason to remove your LE...EVER(from what I've heard) and that's a BIG problem...this game used to be about relying on clan mates and always checking your back to see who was around for fear of being pk'd. Now you level/farm in complete peace and safety. That's not the neocron I remember and fell in love with.

I'll admit that I'm a hypocrite and part of the problem, I have my LE in while I'm leveling(I was told about the LE penalty removal and how everyone keeps their LE's in nowadays so really wouldn't be fighting anyone around my level anyways) but a big part of me wants to take it out. I've almost reached a point where I'm gonna take it out (without getting capped first because I'm so fucking bored with mobs and at least now I MIGHT be able to fight someone and stand a chance even without rares).

So please devs do something about the LE, give people a reason to take it out (what was wrong with the system of removing it on your own but suffer a exp penalty if you kept it in?). PvP doesn't have to be your thing, I remember clans that didn't focus on PvP and still played the game for a long time (without LE's in)

Bottom line: too many people have their LE's in (and some keep it in waayyy after they've capped I've heard, wtf?) I remember when the game forced you to take it out after reaching /10 or /20...whatever though something needs to happen with the LE

/rant

Naim
21-01-13, 22:28
This is a sensitive issue and even after one decade of NC there hasnt been found a perfect solution.

The current situation is not optimal as at the moment you can say: moving out your LE is a huge punishment and nobody instead of members of big pvp-active clans has got any incentive to do that.

Just one example to explain the situation in a better way:

At Canyon Reloading Point there were a bunch of people leveling in the cave. All but one unlucky guy had their LE installed. That unlucky guy got terrorized several times on several days. Peoples opinion about that was: "It is his own fault if he removes his LE".

The people who terrorized him are the same who are unhappy that there are so many LE-players and do not bring together the fact that they increase the incentive to keep the LE and never put it out.

As long as casual-gamers got heavily punished for removing the LE there is no reason to force them to do that.
Casual gamers are the mass and casual gamers are "not so good" in pvp what results in frustration and leaving the game if they are forced to face experienced-pvp-players.

Kame
21-01-13, 23:03
Guys when i joined this game, 8 years ago, you used to have to KILL A RUNNER to complete epic run.

This meant poping out LE and saying bye bye to it, forever.

This behavior was changed somewhere between 2.1 and 2.2, by the same dev team that thought adding 100 more items was the way to fix items and pvp balance.

Dropout
21-01-13, 23:17
Guys when i joined this game, 8 years ago, you used to have to KILL A RUNNER to complete epic run.

This meant poping out LE and saying bye bye to it, forever.

This behavior was changed somewhere between 2.1 and 2.2, by the same dev team that thought adding 100 more items was the way to fix items and pvp balance.

Uh yeah, I had forgotten about that... That was awesome tbh!
IIRC some people drugged up like madmen to get to the required rank, while still being able to put back in their LE after the kill..
But honestly, I didnt mind that, at least people got a taste of the awesomeness called NC-PvP :p

Chuck Norris
21-01-13, 23:19
I dont even want to start with all the hyperbole flying around in here, a lot of I want my old server/population back mentality.

So many skewed "facts" in here that are not at all facts, seems like people/grievers are just pissed they have no one to grief during their limited amount of play time.


Would be nice to see yet another new server started with all the bug fixes/npc changes/Secret HQ safe zone changes. See some truely new legit characters being made....

This game is more like diablo to me then anything else, double exp should remain in effect indefinitely that way people will cap faster and give pvp'ers what they want more op fights, right?

People are complaining about inconveniencing other players so they will be less inconvenienced, its ludicrous

Dope
21-01-13, 23:36
I believe it is a mistake to assume that PvP is an "end-game/OP only" activity. It was clearly not intended to be (and was not for a very long time.)

Chuck Norris
21-01-13, 23:45
I believe it is a mistake to assume that PvP is an "end-game/OP only" activity. It was clearly not intended to be (and was not for a very long time.)

ahh yes the gank!

DigestiveBiscui
21-01-13, 23:46
A massive yes from me - it'll stop so many of the problems currently in the game and if you look back at the nc1 days it was perfect back then.

Too many carebears seem to have entered this game - including whoever changed the LE

BetMonty
21-01-13, 23:52
So many skewed "facts" in here that are not at all facts, seems like people/grievers are just pissed they have no one to grief during their limited amount of play time.

That thing you just leapt to? That's a false conclusion. I don't know that I see an evidence of what you're saying in the thread at all. Yes, a lot of folks like it when the LE was essentially forced out, but it's false equivalency to equate that with wanting to grief players. In fact, more than one person here has pointed out that LE players can currently grief with impunity by killing the NPCs others need to finish their quests, which seems to imply the opposite of what you said is true.

but you know what, I like Chuck Norris. His tears cure cancer and that means a lot to me. It'd be better if he ever actually cried, but still, his heart is in the right, unpunchable, place. So let's talk a little bit about what you said without just discounting it as wrong with no evidence.

You seem to believe that if more people pulled out their LE, they would all somehow grief the little guy. I can understand that -- that *did* happen back in NC1. That's a valid concern. That said, why assume that a request to reinstate the XP bonus for non-le'd players means we want all players to pull their LEs? Yes, perhaps in an effort to level more quickly more people will pull their LEs, but that's *not* the goal of the request as I understand it. As I understand it, the point is to give people who take on more risk a better reward to recognize that. How does that hurt a player with an LE in at all?

It's a simple request really. filter out all the side talk and focus on that: it's not going to make the game worse for Non-LEd players in any way, so why oppose it?

Dope
22-01-13, 00:01
ahh yes the gank!

That is a false conclusion.

Lower level PvP isn't always gank squads and border hopping, that is merely one potential expression, and one that can be effectively policed by the community and by code-enforced 'no-fire' zones at that.

For example, since Neocron is *not* normalized for rank (like other mmos, WoW/EQ etc. are) a 'gank squad' of lower level runners can ork/zerg a high level and win.

Likewise, lowbies can fight lowbies and have an even match, and mismatched builds can have interesting fight/flight experiences (running away is valid!)

please try to contribute, rather than troll, thanks.

Chuck Norris
22-01-13, 00:24
That thing you just leapt to? That's a false conclusion. I don't know that I see an evidence of what you're saying in the thread at all. Yes, a lot of folks like it when the LE was essentially forced out, but it's false equivalency to equate that with wanting to grief players. In fact, more than one person here has pointed out that LE players can currently grief with impunity by killing the NPCs others need to finish their quests, which seems to imply the opposite of what you said is true.

but you know what, I like Chuck Norris. His tears cure cancer and that means a lot to me. It'd be better if he ever actually cried, but still, his heart is in the right, unpunchable, place. So let's talk a little bit about what you said without just discounting it as wrong with no evidence.

You seem to believe that if more people pulled out their LE, they would all somehow grief the little guy. I can understand that -- that *did* happen back in NC1. That's a valid concern. That said, why assume that a request to reinstate the XP bonus for non-le'd players means we want all players to pull their LEs? Yes, perhaps in an effort to level more quickly more people will pull their LEs, but that's *not* the goal of the request as I understand it. As I understand it, the point is to give people who take on more risk a better reward to recognize that. How does that hurt a player with an LE in at all?

It's a simple request really. filter out all the side talk and focus on that: it's not going to make the game worse for Non-LEd players in any way, so why oppose it?

There are more then one npc to kill for epics this is the kind of BS im talking about.........

Incentive's for removing LE before Cap for what reason, just why? Im still not understanding why it is insisted that people must pull their LE before cap'ing?

This game is so top heavy since nc2 and addition of WoC the hierarchy of weaponry is "so called balance" is towards the top end not the lower end... some non rares make more damage then rares now days

There are things repercussions for having an LE, like lower damage, combat rank, the inability to join a clan and more

Then people go back to using NC1 analogies well this isnt nc1 not even close, so please check those moot points at the door.

Chuck Norris
22-01-13, 00:27
That is a false conclusion.

Lower level PvP isn't always gank squads and border hopping, that is merely one potential expression, and one that can be effectively policed by the community and by code-enforced 'no-fire' zones at that.

For example, since Neocron is *not* normalized for rank (like other mmos, WoW/EQ etc. are) a 'gank squad' of lower level runners can ork/zerg a high level and win.

Likewise, lowbies can fight lowbies and have an even match, and mismatched builds can have interesting fight/flight experiences (running away is valid!)

please try to contribute, rather than troll, thanks.

Any cap'd AoE class can clear rooms of noobs with their weapons, the noobs wont stand a chance ive seen it before, so i dont think a pack of noobs will take down a seasoned fine tuned cookie cutter build ganker/pvp'r

Ivan Eres
22-01-13, 00:29
The people who terrorized him are the same who are unhappy that there are so many LE-players and do not bring together the fact that they increase the incentive to keep the LE and never put it out.

In Germany there's a saying that goes "The cat bites its own tail" :-)

The interesting thing is that all hardcore PvP players I saw keep their LE in until they're near cap or even WoC and have the best equip. Then they remove it and moan about nobody being there to gank and kill. It's an attitude problem I guess.

I will try the following: The next time one of my six non LE leveling chars will be killed three times like yesterday at MB by a rare equipped 63 spy I will call for support on the alliance channel. Let's see what happens.

Chuck Norris
22-01-13, 00:31
in germany there's a saying that goes "the cat bites its own tail" :-)

the interesting thing is that all hardcore pvp players i saw keep their le in until they're near cap or even woc and have the best equip. Then they remove it and moan about nobody being there to gank and kill.

qftmft!!!!!!!!!

Bruder Malmsdoo
22-01-13, 00:31
How many of you guys played NC1?

When noone had LE's in and someone shouted on help that they had been pked literally half the server turned up for a fight. People would actively go out and "police" levelling zones. Clans meant a LOT more back then and everyone joined a good one because they knew they would get looked after by their mates.

Right! For example hunting used to be a clan-event in the old days, because you needed the security of your clan mates. The Game forced the alliance with other players! But that also meant the sharing of Rareparts and other kind of loot. Most of the LE'd people today prefer to play the Game solo because they make more profit in that way and are more efficient. But NC is a Mmorpg, isn't it?

Roc-a-fella
22-01-13, 00:32
for the record there was NEVER an xp bonus for removing your LE. Only a xp penalty for having it in

Chuck Norris
22-01-13, 00:34
Right! For example hunting used to be a clan-event in the old days, because you needed the security of your clan mates. The Game forced the alliance with other players! But that also meant the sharing of Rareparts and other kind of loot. Most of the LE'd people today prefer to play the Game solo because they make more profit in that way and are more efficient. But NC is a Mmorg, isn't it?

I think the games missing the massive part in MMORPG, which is a big part of your theoretical situation

Also im not sure if you played nc1 at all but it was called monkocron for a reason they could solo anything most classes could..
I think this more or less come down to people want to feel exclusive/elite and cooler then other people, very clique and high-school'ish imo

Bruder Malmsdoo
22-01-13, 00:39
The interesting thing is that all hardcore PvP players I saw keep their LE in until they're near cap or even WoC and have the best equip. Then they remove it and moan about nobody being there to gank and kill. It's a attitude problem I guess.

But that is a question of Setups and Weapon-Balance. Not-capped and without the right weapons you are fragmeat atm. But:

I think that the LE-rules of the last years influenced the NC-culture in a very negative way.
They lowered the pressure to interact with other players. On a 4-Slot-Server you could play nearly every aspect of the game on you own. Especially with a droner. Fixing the drone bugs made it a bit better, but there is still a lot of work to do.

Chuck Norris
22-01-13, 00:41
only thing that will fix neocron will be a new client; this one is just to janky

BetMonty
22-01-13, 00:41
There are more then one npc to kill for epics this is the kind of BS im talking about.........

No, it's not BS, you're simply misunderstanding what is being said. These are not people killing contacts for *their* epics. These are people doing things like killing Manuel in PP2 so that *others* can't finish their quests until they respawn.


Incentive's for removing LE before Cap for what reason, just why? Im still not understanding why it is insisted that people must pull their LE before cap'ing?

Leaping to false conclusions again. The idea that people *must* pull their LE before capping was not brought up here. I explicitly stated that the suggestion in this thread wouldn't affect LE'd players at all, but here you are trying to make it sound like the suggestion was to make LEs going away. Are you trying to construct some sort of slippery slope argument or something? Like an American talking about gun control? That's not what's being discussed here and that's not how the thread originator asked that we comport ourselves in this thread. I'm starting think that dope dude is right and you're just a troll.


This game is so top heavy since nc2 and addition of WoC the hierarchy of weaponry is "so called balance" is towards the top end not the lower end... some non rares make more damage then rares now days

Which would matter, I guess, if we were discussing removing LEs all together, but since that's not the point, ultimately irrelevant. Walk away if you don't want to participate constructively. the real Chuck Norris doesn't troll. He punches their trolling faces through the back of their trolling little heads.


There are things repercussions for having an LE, like lower damage, combat rank, the inability to join a clan and more

Then people go back to using NC1 analogies well this isnt nc1 not even close, so please check those moot points at the door.

What moot points? Are you saying comparing Neocron 2.2 to any other game is invalid, or just comparing it to itself from 10 years ago? Cuz, if you'd prefer we can talk about DAOC and other games that handle this problem significantly better than its treated here, now. The point isn't to bring back the "halcyon" days of NC1 (which were not all that Halcyon, I was there. In fact, I was there 4 years before you ever started playing if your join date is accurate) -- the point is to illustrate how things have changed and to maybe express the opinion that said changes weren't always for the better. Much like when they moved half of us to DoY. They realized that was a mistake and changed it, why can't we also examine other potential mistakes?

Or is it simply that you fear change and want to shout so loud no one will notice this might be a change for the better? That's really not helping anyone, except those that want to make the case that you're not worth listening to. :(

Chuck Norris
22-01-13, 00:42
But that is a question of Setups and Weapon-Balance.

I think that the LE-rules of the last years influenced the NC-culture in a very negative way.
They lowered the pressure to interact with other players. On a 4-Slot-Server you can play nearly every aspect of the game on you own. Fixing the drone bugs made it a bit better, but there is still a lot of work to do.

Seems like the games at the highest its ever been I cant completely agree with this, having to wait for someone in a different time zone from you to get your implants poked in or armor/weapons fixed to continue playing is just terrible imo

BetMonty
22-01-13, 00:43
for the record there was NEVER an xp bonus for removing your LE. Only a xp penalty for having it in

That's a mechanical difference, but not one that really matters. Yes, technically the Xp debuff was on LE'd players, but the effective result was that you got more XP by shouldering the risk than you did obviating it.

BetMonty
22-01-13, 00:45
Any cap'd AoE class can clear rooms of noobs with their weapons, the noobs wont stand a chance ive seen it before, so i dont think a pack of noobs will take down a seasoned fine tuned cookie cutter build ganker/pvp'r

So it's a pure numbers game? I'm not sure I buy that argument; it precludes the possibility that the newbs could be good tacticians or could have used the terrain to their advantage or could have executed a strategy. But again, totally irrelevant -- this isn't a conversation about removing the LE completely. Hell, it isn't even a conversation about changing the rules beyond giving some bonus XP to those that choose to remove their LE early.

Chuck Norris
22-01-13, 00:46
No, it's not BS, you're simply misunderstanding what is being said. These are not people killing contacts for *their* epics. These are people doing things like killing Manuel in PP2 so that *others* can't finish their quests until they respawn.



Leaping to false conclusions again. The idea that people *must* pull their LE before capping was not brought up here. I explicitly stated that the suggestion in this thread wouldn't affect LE'd players at all, but here you are trying to make it sound like the suggestion was to make LEs going away. Are you trying to construct some sort of slippery slope argument or something? Like an American talking about gun control? That's not what's being discussed here and that's not how the thread originator asked that we comport ourselves in this thread. I'm starting think that dope dude is right and you're just a troll.



Which would matter, I guess, if we were discussing removing LEs all together, but since that's not the point, ultimately irrelevant. Walk away if you don't want to participate constructively. the real Chuck Norris doesn't troll. He punches their trolling faces through the back of their trolling little heads.



What moot points? Are you saying comparing Neocron 2.2 to any other game is invalid, or just comparing it to itself from 10 years ago? Cuz, if you'd prefer we can talk about DAOC and other games that handle this problem significantly better than its treated here, now. The point isn't to bring back the "halcyon" days of NC1 (which were not all that Halcyon, I was there. In fact, I was there 4 years before you ever started playing if your join date is accurate) -- the point is to illustrate how things have changed and to maybe express the opinion that said changes weren't always for the better. Much like when they moved half of us to DoY. They realized that was a mistake and changed it, why can't we also examine other potential mistakes?

Or is it simply that you fear change and want to shout so loud no one will notice this might be a change for the better? That's really not helping anyone, except those that want to make the case that you're not worth listening to. :(

Where did I leap lol? man all youve done is attack me personally for refuting your points; look in the mirror if your looking for a troll.

You have zero substance just attacks, thanks!

Chuck Norris
22-01-13, 00:49
So it's a pure numbers game? I'm not sure I buy that argument; it precludes the possibility that the newbs could be good tacticians or could have used the terrain to their advantage or could have executed a strategy. But again, totally irrelevant -- this isn't a conversation about removing the LE completely. Hell, it isn't even a conversation about changing the rules beyond giving some bonus XP to those that choose to remove their LE early.

Where and when would this even take place you describe? You make up some crazy scenario about noob luring a ganker into some trap a bunch of low level un'LE'd players setup???? this isnt making much practical in game sense

Chuck Norris
22-01-13, 00:57
That's a mechanical difference, but not one that really matters. Yes, technically the Xp debuff was on LE'd players, but the effective result was that you got more XP by shouldering the risk than you did obviating it.

And if you are in an active clan (IE no LE) you will probably get way more exp,money and loot then a lonely solo droner whos been nerf'd to shit and people are still complaining about them.

To me it is simply un-resonable people being forced to share, go find something else to do if your first choice isnt available, the rest of us reasonable people with no time to spare do. We dont just go in shooting up everything until we get our way.

Also any team can/will totally out dmg a LE'd droner, hell most classes wihtout an LE will totally out dmg'd an Le'd player heads up

Dope
22-01-13, 00:57
Any cap'd AoE class can clear rooms of noobs with their weapons, the noobs wont stand a chance ive seen it before, so i dont think a pack of noobs will take down a seasoned fine tuned cookie cutter build ganker/pvp'r

On the face of it, that's true, but isn't that bad tactics on the part of the lowbies in that case? I don't want to derail, but my opinion on that is "don't let the AOE guy get into a superior tactical position, move him out of it if he gets into one by rabbiting and pull him into a trap, heck, feed him to a copbot (done that myself back on Pluto, then later on Terra)" and like I said before "Running is a valid tactic" - territory control is part of the factional game, I'm not supposed to go to Mil Base, basically ever, unless I choose to work my factional symp to a point where I am allowed by the CM's that *live there* - Factional conflict is a core concept to this game.

WRT 'everybody leaves it in' - I'll share an anecdote. I've never left an LE in past day three of a character. I live in Pepper Park, the text description when I chose my faction told me in no uncertain terms that I would be living in a dangerous place and to choose a more Pro-City faction if I wanted less trouble at home. It is explicitly stated in the character create (or was, didn't read it this time around) implying that it is the intended behavior.

I see enemy runners at or near my rank all the time, many could easily take me if they just played that part of the game, but they don't. So, again, this is all anecdotal, but I call BS. I pulled my chip, and if those guys I'm seeing around all the time had also, our fights would be fair, and Pepper Park would be an exciting, sort of dicey place for people to go. Like it was explicitly stated to be. Nowadays it's sort of like Disneyland with hookers, and factions mean basically fuck-all. We're not even horde/alliance up in here (but I really don't like WoW much anyway ;) )

I don't want to punish LE players, I want to reward non-LE'd players. "Buff, don't Nerf" is a game development adage that I stand by. Give nice things to people doing the intended things, and let the others progress into it at their own pace, or not.

Dope
22-01-13, 01:10
Also, it has occurred to me that perhaps an important distinction should be made between sandbox environments and the WoW styled linear environment.

Some of us seem to think that there is an "intended leveling route to cap" - something like Dun Morogh -> Ironforge -> Stormwind -> etc... - that is not how this game was built, and though it's been bent over behind the shed a few times to get it to where it is now, that's still basically true.

Like I said about Mil Base, I shouldn't ever go there without expecting a fight that I may not win. I'm intended to level elsewhere.

Yet I still see people asking in help things like "At what level do I go to X to grind?" implying that they don't realize that the linear-world paradigm is not the only one out there. If I recall correctly, this game predates WoW and that linear paradigm.

Chuck Norris
22-01-13, 01:12
unfortunately most dungeon areas dont leave much room to run, also you dont run very fast comparatively, comparing my pvp vs pve builds...
I do like the your avenue of thinking, bring everything up to be in line rather then nerf-bat'ing the shit out of everything

Min maxing has become so prevalent and semi necessary for a reasonable leveling time-framage.

Dope
22-01-13, 01:28
I think we should continue to work on this until we have a viable solution. This is both a cultural and a mechanical issue.

But for now I've taken the first step. My chars have no LE's, and I won't be putting them back in. Please don't single me out as gankbait all day unless I'm asking for it ;) have a little class.

In the meantime, I'd like some fair rivals in my 'hood, and I'd like some way to play my role in defending the BD's on the street. Suggestions? Volunteers?

Kame
22-01-13, 02:02
Man I take out the LE as soon as the char spawns in noob MC5. To me it's all about the hardcore experience. Or lack thereof.

To tell you guys the truth I havnt been PKd much as a noob leveling, although my leveling usually takes place rather briefly (I go through noob-ish, mid-lv quite fast). Especially since almost everyone else lving was LEd, I would hunt most popular spots without watching over my shoulder really.

I did have a good encounter on my PPU when he was a mid-lv APU. It was at OZ gogo outside near ASG. We were both about the same lv and both clanned, enemy factions. I noob-barreled this mid-lv spy untill death, and he came back with a vegeance :) We had a like a 10min fight, barely making damage to one another, running all over the place and using the gogo. He then proceeded to run off in a 2 place HH wheeler LOL !

But that was only that encounter. The rest of them... didn't happen. I lvd mostly quietly, in a wolrd filled with LEd nibs which were buzzing in the background with crap I wouldn't give a shit about, mainly because it would't have an impact on my un-LEd ass.

Anyhow as far as MB/CRP cave raid goes, I think some ppl do it more out of habbit than anything :) They do it cuz they used to do it in the good ol' days.

Faid
22-01-13, 03:05
Roughly 75% of the current population has an LE in their head. Thats three quarters of the active population that willingly chooses the LE playstyle. So we're talking about nerfing the vast majority of the population. I can't think of a better way to lose players. I would love to see the Devs try this lol I thought the most important thing for the continued survival of the game was to gain players, which they have done with the anti-cheat and fresh server. This whole conversation is utterly counter-productive.

Druid311
22-01-13, 03:10
I like the idea. I would like to see some sectors heavily penalizing players for ganking though. Nothing sucks more than when a dick ganks you in regants. This is what people are afraid of. Bring back Pepper Park pvp.

Izeo
22-01-13, 03:22
Some LE users make these complaints: Leave the LE alone, because I don't want to deal with 14 year old drooling PKers who gank their own allies and/or lower levels for literally no reason other than teh lulz, and then ROFL about it.

Some Non-LE users make these complaints: LE sucks because it's not fair that LE p*ssy carebears can be rude or inconsiderate to me with no risk of death, and do exploits like lock zones and kill my NPCs for teh lulz, and then ROFL about it.

The problem has nothing to do with LE or non-LE players. Everyone knows that ALL players from either category do not fit in the above groups. The problem is only players who are assholes. That's it. In fact, it would not surprise me that there are in fact some players who have some LE'd characters, and some non-LE'd characters, and they do BOTH of the things complained about above.

I could be an asshole wearing an LE and be rude and do the exploits mentioned in this thread. I could also be an asshole without an LE and camp at MB and kill players, allied or not. I'd ROFL about it either way.

Or, I could be a decent, sane person wearing an LE and be considerate to other players and do no exploits. I could be a decent, sane person without an LE and only kill hostiles and/or OP wars and/or duels and/or NeoFrag and/or reasonable fights, and maybe even the occasional uncalled for wasteland gank for no reason, but not be a total prick about it like camping a newbie leveling area.

You can be an asshole whether you have the LE or not. Also, that statement that LE users aren't roleplaying was also bullshit. I use LE, and yes, I don't roleplay. You got me. But I just don't enjoy roleplaying. So? Newbie ganker/allied gankers aren't roleplaying either and you KNOW IT. They're JUST doing it to piss other people off. That's what's fun to some people.

To summarize: Being an asshole or being a roleplayer is completely independent of whether or not you use an LE chip, so stahp.

gostly
22-01-13, 03:48
Roughly 75% of the current population has an LE in their head. Thats three quarters of the active population that willingly chooses the LE playstyle. So we're talking about nerfing the vast majority of the population. I can't think of a better way to lose players. I would love to see the Devs try this lol I thought the most important thing for the continued survival of the game was to gain players, which they have done with the anti-cheat and fresh server. This whole conversation is utterly counter-productive.

Uh...what? Who said anything about nerfing people that have LE's? And you think this conversation is counter-productive? You think if people had incentive(keyword) to take out their LE, they would leave the game? That's such BS, this game was doing great back when they had the old system in place(remove your LE, gain more exp). And if the majority of players have LE's in right now(which I believe you're right about that)...it's a problem.

Faid
22-01-13, 04:41
Please believe me when I say that the population would take it as a huge effin nerf if they added an XP negative for wearing an LE. You can count on that.

Yes I do think this conversation is counter-productive, by doing this you would certainly drive people away, not entice them to take the LE out. It's never a good idea to try to steer people into doing something they don't want to do in the first place. Especially if the direction is in the minority by a huge amount.

The game is absolutely not the same as it was way back in NC1 when the LE nerf (have an LE in and be penalized with less XP) was in place. Please stop using this as an excuse it's such BS. It's not a problem if the vast majority of people want to keep their LE in while leveling.

Mostly people will level with the LE in order to cap then pop it out so they can PVP. Nerfing XP for wearing an LE will only serve to hinder the leveling process, it will certainly be perceived this way. And what about all the people who have already leveled to cap unaffected by this LE nerf? This may have been somewhat plausible at the release of Titan but to implement it now would be retarded.

The vast majority of people playing don't seem to have any problem with the way the LE is now, why on Earth would they fuck with it? Certainly not to appease the 7 or 8 people on these forums who don't like it.

Strife
22-01-13, 05:42
Roughly 75% of the current population has an LE in their head. Thats three quarters of the active population that willingly chooses the LE playstyle. So we're talking about nerfing the vast majority of the population. I can't think of a better way to lose players. People leave it in because "why bother taking it out?". Also, people play because they love the game, which makes me seriously doubt they'd quit over something like getting killed. If they're going to get upset and leave just because they died a few times in a video game they need to grow up.

gostly
22-01-13, 05:50
Please believe me when I say that the population would take it as a huge effin nerf if they added an XP negative for wearing an LE. You can count on that.

Yes I do think this conversation is counter-productive, by doing this you would certainly drive people away, not entice them to take the LE out. It's never a good idea to try to steer people into doing something they don't want to do in the first place. Especially if the direction is in the minority by a huge amount.

The game is absolutely not the same as it was way back in NC1 when the LE nerf (have an LE in and be penalized with less XP) was in place. Please stop using this as an excuse it's such BS. It's not a problem if the vast majority of people want to keep their LE in while leveling.

Mostly people will level with the LE in order to cap then pop it out so they can PVP. Nerfing XP for wearing an LE will only serve to hinder the leveling process, it will certainly be perceived this way. And what about all the people who have already leveled to cap unaffected by this LE nerf? This may have been somewhat plausible at the release of Titan but to implement it now would be retarded.

The vast majority of people playing don't seem to have any problem with the way the LE is now, why on Earth would they fuck with it? Certainly not to appease the 7 or 8 people on these forums who don't like it.

Yeah because neocron 2 was a great success right? Most of us quit when NC2 came around because the changes were bad. They obviously made that LE change during NC2 and it sure as hell didn't bring anyone back to the game. The reason old vets are coming back is in hopes that the devs(who care about the game as much as we did) will make/correct some of the changes that NC2 brought about. So yea, we're talking about the LE in this thread because we believe it needs to be addressed.

Oh and just my opinion, any new players that keep their LE's in are missing out on some of the best experiences in the game. Fighting when you're not capped and have all the best shit is exciting. But hey, like I said it's just my opinion, everyone has one.

Torg
22-01-13, 12:21
taking out the LE has two huge advantages: you can use four implant brainslots, giving you additional combat skills and/or resists, and you are able to take part in PvP, which some of you regard as the single most important feature of neocron, and the single one feature some of you enjoy most.

so what other advantages of removing the LE could match this? how come you aren't happy with what you got? or is it true that some of you just want to impose their own favourite style of playing on others? this attempt will definitely fail.

i just suspect some players just want more PvP, all the time, anywhere, so they keep demanding everyone else has to join them. answer: Neptune.

all the recent discussions on the LE have shown there's a good balance in the current PvP/Non-PvP-system most people can live with. have a happy and productive day, everyone.

Deus Ex Machina
22-01-13, 17:21
I dunno that any of that is en pointe though -- the original request was to reinstate the XP bonus for removing your LE. I understand an "LE for life" player feeling like they lose out, but that doesn't make it true: The additional XP bonus comes from shouldering the extra risk of PVP; it's not free. How is it fair that pulling my LE only makes me vulnerable to other players with little to no other benefit?

That's inequity, and it's something we can solve simply by reinstating the XP bonus. It hurts no one, but rewards those who decide to shoulder extra risk. Risk you benefit from, if you factor in OP bonuses, right? Why should my risk benefit you who has done nothing to earn it, isn't that unfair, too?

The easiest route to play, which is not necessarily the most fun to be clear, is to keep your LE in; without some other incentive to pull your LE you're disincentivizing PvP, plain and simple. Even in a game like WoW, PVP earns you gear and rewards you can't get any other way: recognition of and reward for the risk you take on is sort of core to the experience.

I am all for this suggestion. Bring back the XP bonus for unchipped players!As I have said before, thats my stance too. Risk of taking out LE should be rewarded.

Also the most "fun" route to play should be the most rewarding in my opinion, but thats often hard to implement (For example grinding is often more rewarding than making quests and just playing the game. Many games let you grind, so that you can PvP. Warhammer for example was a nice exception in that point).

But back to risk that is rewarded. Often stated is the fear of getting less XP by LEd players. Well they shouldn't. And its simple.
We just had a double XP event (thats still running), that proves its relativly easy to boost XP. So we can just adjust the general XP to, for example, 120% of what it is now. At the same time the LE is penalized with 16.666% of the XP (just calculate it, its the right number to get down to ~100% again).
Conclusion: All LE runners level the same speed as the are now (depending on precision of the numbers maybe even a very very small bit faster). So there is nothing to cry about, since nothing changes for them.
Non-LEd Runners on the other hand have a risk they take, and 20% XP as reward.

And just for the record: If the general increase of XP ist 10%, to 110%, the right penalty to get down to 100% would be 9.09%.
Just to clarify that for me it wouldn't matter if its 20%, 10% or 5%.