View Full Version : there are two diifferent neocrons
At least. Nc forum discussions in the recent months, mainly in brainport, pointed to at least two different Neocrons, existing in parallel. And causing problems in the overlapping areas.
There is one large group within the NC-Player-population who want to cap as fast as possible, and compete in PvP. A second group of comparable size want to play the game. In all its details. Explore it, get items, have professions (i.e. make 5-slotters), hunt mobs, design apartments, play roles, do PvP. To this second main group PvP also exists, but not in the center of the game. Of course we're getting into problems whenever those two groups talk or play together.
We don't instantly assume all others are stupid, but we're having difficulties with someone of a totally different opinion on a somehow important subject. Faction One "PvP is the main part of neocron" want all players taking part in one big screen-sports-event, "and please simplify the rest of the game." Faction Two "PvP is just a small part of neocron" want to pursue different ingame-interests without feeling molested by PvP, "and please don' simplify the game, give us even more options and complexity." Right now on Titan nearly all Non-LEds are members of Faction One ("PvP-uber-alles") while LEds are in Faction Two ("PvP-inter-pares").
One way to change the situation would be putting up a new server on stricler PvP-rules (i.e. PvP only between clans after an official game-mechanics declaration of war), so Titan could be a "PvP-only-server". Not today, maybe in the future, when more and more people play "the best MMO there is" (tm).
- Question to the PvP-faction: Would you want Titan as a PvP-server, without high-level Leds, some time in the future?
- Question to the PvP-and everything-else-faction: Would you want a new server on stricter PvP-rules, embedded into the RP-context, some time in the future?
- Question to everyone outside of either faction (Three): What would you rather do?
On answering, please try to identify yourself as Faction One (more PvP), Two (more everything), or Three (can't decide/other).
I guess im in #3, although i actually sit in between 1 and 2.
i dont think it would be a good idea, simply on the basis that it has been done before and failed, not because it cant work, but more because we wont see enough players to have a really vibrant atmosphere on both.
If we do, dont forget the pvp server will almost always be lacking good and available tradeskillers, both sides need to ride hand in hand really - alot of what is wrong with pvp servers in just that, they dont entice you to explore, there are no chance meetings, you log on, go to customary fight spot and fight for awhile, then theres the other side - a pve server is boring, no chance of having to fight or flee from someone, it become boring very quickly, it becomes a single player game.
I would love to pvp all the time, but im never good enough to win and not end up broke, also not good enough/ dont have time anymore to come back from being broke quickly, so although i marvel in the games complexity, for me to have a chance to play well i would love to see it simplified, atleast become twitch based, damn recticle!!
As a non pvper, because thats what my ping and abilities force me to be, i would also love to see the game become bigger, but less mathematically complex, bring back nc1 imp stats!
I personally dont see why people think it has to be one or the other, it simply needs balancing and a few exploits and mechanics fixed.
I think that the team should simplify things for themselves, to make balancing easier, not because players want it easier.
Drachenpaladin
19-01-13, 15:11
#2
/5char
I personally dont see why people think it has to be one or the other, it simply needs balancing and a few exploits and mechanics fixed.
Agreed, the game is doing just fine as is. It's getting pulled along with blood, sweat and unpaid hours. Strangely enough, I think it's in the best state for years. Kirk may not get on these boards as much as people would like, but he has clearly laid out a solid plan with the staff of volunteers and the game is improving.
There will always be two main camps in a game like this and I believe it would destroy the game to separate them (even though there are a few "extremists" I would love to see the back of). Lets have no more talk of pulling the game to pieces and focus on improving it with the Brainport and PTS. I believe we can all feel the game is changing for the better and each of us are a little tempted to tug it in our own direction.
A big thanks to the team for putting so much work in and pretty much getting it right. A big thanks to Kirk for enabling our addiction through his own pocket.
Hell-demon
19-01-13, 15:28
Honestly, just leave neocron as it is. This game is pretty much sandbox and caters to everyone's tastes. I think what will help this clash is more content really. Maybe some new pvp dynamics or more quests.
Also is it really that hard for the pvpers to just fight each other? O_o All I hear is bitching about people taking out there LE's and really it's because they got more numbers and better gear and just want an easy kill. I hate to say this but the mentality of a lot of pvpers (not all) is one of ego if anything. I cannot be the only one's tired of the man childish smack talk that goes on the chat channels.
Grown men with families throwing real death threats around and calling everyone a homo. I've face palmed so much my face has a permanent hand print embedded in the skin.
Neocron allows for a lot of different play styles.
To try and squeeze all players into two arbitrary categories is a stereotyped thinking that does no one any good.
Variety and friction is what makes Neocron special to me.
Variety because you can opt to play the game the way you want to and friction –in this case– because there is always players or groups of players who think their truth is the truth and it is their mission to proselytize everyone else.
This fight between the noisy minorities has gone on for a decade now and I hope it will continue for as long as possible :)
I wouldn't have such a problem with the LE chip if there were one or two minor disadvantages to using it. The simple fact is, wearing an LE gives you an advantage over non-LE wearing players. My other (and perhaps bigger) issue with the LE, is those people that use it as a ticket to grief/hassle other players.
Example :
As soon as the server came back up last night, an LE'd player blocked the El Farid L2 spawn. Nobody could do a thing about it except whine at him. That shouldn't be the case in my opinion.
In terms of your 'factions', I think it's nonsense. You describe faction 1 as if you think they're idiots, with little to no interest in anything but PvP. You're wrong.
I would say that PvP is absolutely my primary focus in game, but that doesn't mean to say I don't enjoy tech/mc5 farming and building myself an apartment. What I don't enjoy is being fucked around at every turn during the levelling process, by cowardly griefers and their LEs.
Chuck Norris
19-01-13, 20:05
this re-posted black and white post is getting old this is hardly how it is.... Just because a few trolls are so prevalent on the forums does not mean everyone is lumped together into two categories, this is a BIG MISTAKE to assume something like this
RogerRamjet
19-01-13, 21:14
Don't split the population in any capacity, and don't assume all pvpers never roleplay and all roleplayers never pvp. Tweaks are needed, but it only goes as far as that.
There is only one type of player, the ones who play NC. To paraphrase, "Ich bin ein NCer" ;)
William Antrim
19-01-13, 22:17
torg this is just hyperbole and opinion. I couldnt find one single fact in there. Sorry but this is just more bs. :D
So to that end I cannot be bothered to explain how typecasting anyone in this forum is a bad thing, if you cant see it then I cannot help you. This is just a disguised version of more flame bait to either ignite the forum or just cause more arguments generally. As a poster you have a history of disagreeing with everything others say and tbh it just looks to me IN MY OPINION that you are trying to incite arguments/disagreements to further your own ends.
sorry but this thread is a total waste of time.
Meh, why seperate these two groups at all. So (to borrow your simplified model cause I think that's all he was trying to do William Antrim :P) some guys like to PvP, others prefer to take in the environment. I don't think we are "getting into problems" with these two groups. I think the frustration comes from people wanting to take the game in different directions, but there really isn't anything that polarising devs could do to change the game so drastically that either one or the other group would be impacted horrendously.
Basically, lets not panic shard the community, k?
First of all diluting the current population would wound or kill the game. Any way you look at it the LE population is needed in this game for trading, tradeskilling, poking and just a feeling of there being people ingame, what is needed is a carrot and stick approach to try convince people to remove the LE and bring the population back to NC1 where at least 95% of people removed the LE at character creation.
Personally my love of this game very much comes from tradeskilling I always loved the percentage and slot system no matter how frustrating they can be at times. At the moment this is what keeps my LE in!! Since the city is no longer a safe zone with the exception of plaza 1 I cannot take out my LE if I want to produce anywhere else and to be honest I need to produce close to HEW and smugglers unless I want to spend hours running around with my barter or I want to risk being ganked while overburdened with several million NC of weapon parts, neither of which I find to be particularly appealing especially since I lack rare imps to make taking out my LE worth my skillpoints.
Thats not to say that I don't love pvp, people I fought with and against on Uranus will tell you that I attended OP fights with my constructor when she could only use a libby and considering how gimped a setup you have doing this I normally acquitted myself quite well especially when the RoLH was still good.
Example of carrot and stick off of the top of my head:
Carrot: Open all GRs or add in more wasteland non-OP GRs, my reasoning being that if you are pked you can get back to where you are much much quicker so that pvp when solo in the wastelands is less of a burden when its not your primary focus in game.
Stick:Cap the TL of items that LE users can use to say for example tl99, my reasoning being that if you cannot use most of the worthwhile rares and no MC5 imps then you are much more likely to take out the LE. I used tl99 for an example as it rules out most of the good rares but doesn't impact on LE ppus too badly but could be moved up or down TL depending on how much of a penalty is deemed to be needed.
I think something needs to be done to encourage people into clans, correct me if I am wrong the only advantages to clans at the moment are shared bank, shared cabinets, no sl loss if you kill a clan member and the ability to hold ops. For the current average player these are of very limited value. Unfortunately I cannot think of any off of the top of my head other then maybe xp or cash bonuses for being a member of a clan but I think something a little less blunt would be better.
There are also some cultural issues on the server as well. Back on Uranus if a capped player or group of players killed everyone at say the MB then between the local mercs capped alts and friends said player would be chased off or killed whereas now it tends to just get a response of "Put your LE back in noob" in chat and later the same person complaining that there is nobody to fight! To encourage people to take out LEs there needs to be some attempts at self policing among pvpers and not the prevalent attitude of killing anyone without an LE that you don't happen to know.
The mechanics of the LE also need to be changed so that its less exploitable especially in dungeon sectors. I can think of 2 ways of doing it but not sure how easy either would be to implement. 1. Make it so the LE effectively shuts off when you enter a dungeon zone so if your blocking a respawn you can be killed for it, the heavy SL penalties in dungeon zones should already be an effective counter balance to this but could be increased if needed. 2. Make it so that when the boss mob dies that after 5 minutes that everyone left in the zone is kicked to their apartment and the zone is automatically reset.
I know my replay is a bit off of the stated topic but I think its relevant to the debate in the community as a whole and better then resurrecting an old thread. And even more long ass then I thought!!
No no; the game needs these two groups of players. The meaner players (of either group) can always be more mature, but the game needs both groups. Separating them would thin out the population too much and probably not work.
Chuck Norris
20-01-13, 20:10
Sorry not trolling this thread made me think of this though lol
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2cV_q-mVAAA
Right now on Titan nearly all Non-LEds are members of Faction One ("PvP-uber-alles") while LEds are in Faction Two ("PvP-inter-pares").
This is untrue. I do not fit into this pigeon hole and I know many who do not. You may try and paint a black & white picture but it never it.
One way to change the situation would be putting up a new server on stricler PvP-rules
A PVP only server was tried (Neptune) and it failed miserably. Why repeat the same mistake.
On answering, please try to identify yourself as Faction One (more PvP), Two (more everything), or Three (can't decide/other).
Obviously your request is blatantly flawed!
There is no real reason to split the game up. Accept the game as it is: A hybrid of both worlds. Then you shall enjoy yourself.
We don't instantly assume all others are stupid, but...
No, but we expect you to use the search function. Then you can see your questions suggestions and presumptions have been put onto paper before on this forum. ;P
I agree with the sentiment that we're all not so easily sorted into two camps. (Though I guess I'm a 'moar content!' guy regardless of my stances on PvP)
I also agree that all are needed, the number one problem this game has faced has always been population, and the design of the game very specifically requires other players' co-operation (for poking CONST, RES, w.e)
LE's were handled differently in the past, and I believe that it was in an attempt to hold on to slipping populations of players that they were modified, especially back in those early days of MMO development when other games were not nearly as cut-throat or unforgiving. In fact, you'll find that most of them (MMORPGs) got away from open world PvP because it is frustrating to players that dislike unfair conflicts to get ganked, and they then rage-quit. Pops dwindle, and this population-dependent game dies.
I think that LE's have become too exploitable, and in their current incarnation they are hurting the theme and experience of this game (though, mind, still the best MMO I've ever played.) I put up a post in the BP about it, maybe we can get some focus on that and put our design brains toward a good incentive that satisfies the needs of all of the very diverse player types that make up our community.
So, something about this topic occurred to me whilst I was out at the grocery just now.
So, the OP and others (like in the PvP thread) mention that people are leaving LE's in so that they can build to cap *and then* begin PvP -- I think this behavior/perception is an interesting contributing factor to this circumstance. In the old days, there was a wide range of levels and rank all out in the "potentially PvP" spaces (like Pepper Park). This caused many chance encounters between people of various gear levels and rank, meaning that while ganking did occur, it was way more distributed and usually the result of a PK crew (The TG's coming out of the canyon to raid Pepper Park were notorious!). In short, PvP wasn't "only for OP wars" and in fact, the OP wars were the pinnacle that the rest built up to.
What this meant was that you were just as likely to roll up on an enemy lower rank or comparable to you as you were to get smeared by a PA tank. People traveled in pairs for safety, or stuck to safe sectors unless they absolutely needed to go to an unsafe one.
Beginning to ramble, so let me sum up. It is the perception that "PvP is only viable for capped runners" that causes a large part of this rift. It means that only capped runners will voluntarily pull an LE, and worse, *that* leads to only capped players looking for a fight, and thus everyone else being afraid to travel without an LE, or pulling it and being pounded by capped runners while having no viable targets because of the vast population of runners 'waiting for cap" to get into the conflict.
It's de-facto normalization in the classic MMO sense (i.e. you are level x, you must not attempt to fight level y or you will lose.)
If the "must be uber to participate" myth was drowned, there would be more PvP, that would be more meaningful.
So, something about this topic occurred to me whilst I was out at the grocery just now.
So, the OP and others (like in the PvP thread) mention that people are leaving LE's in so that they can build to cap *and then* begin PvP -- I think this behavior/perception is an interesting contributing factor to this circumstance. In the old days, there was a wide range of levels and rank all out in the "potentially PvP" spaces (like Pepper Park). This caused many chance encounters between people of various gear levels and rank, meaning that while ganking did occur, it was way more distributed and usually the result of a PK crew (The TG's coming out of the canyon to raid Pepper Park were notorious!). In short, PvP wasn't "only for OP wars" and in fact, the OP wars were the pinnacle that the rest built up to.
What this meant was that you were just as likely to roll up on an enemy lower rank or comparable to you as you were to get smeared by a PA tank. People traveled in pairs for safety, or stuck to safe sectors unless they absolutely needed to go to an unsafe one.
Beginning to ramble, so let me sum up. It is the perception that "PvP is only viable for capped runners" that causes a large part of this rift. It means that only capped runners will voluntarily pull an LE, and worse, *that* leads to only capped players looking for a fight, and thus everyone else being afraid to travel without an LE, or pulling it and being pounded by capped runners while having no viable targets because of the vast population of runners 'waiting for cap" to get into the conflict.
It's de-facto normalization in the classic MMO sense (i.e. you are level x, you must not attempt to fight level y or you will lose.)
If the "must be uber to participate" myth was drowned, there would be more PvP, that would be more meaningful.
This post sums up my thoughts entirely.
Beginning to ramble, so let me sum up. It is the perception that "PvP is only viable for capped runners" that causes a large part of this rift. It means that only capped runners will voluntarily pull an LE, and worse, *that* leads to only capped players looking for a fight, and thus everyone else being afraid to travel without an LE, or pulling it and being pounded by capped runners while having no viable targets because of the vast population of runners 'waiting for cap" to get into the conflict.
It's de-facto normalization in the classic MMO sense (i.e. you are level x, you must not attempt to fight level y or you will lose.)
If the "must be uber to participate" myth was drowned, there would be more PvP, that would be more meaningful.
You, Sir, are right!
I have an uncapped Melee-Tank right now, and do PvP as often as I can. Yesterday I was able to kill a Dissy-Spy in a 1on1. This is still Neocron. It is still possible to kill higher leveled Runners. So put your LE out and learn to kill.
The problem with that is the state of balancing makes lower level PVP impossible.
ye well thats not entirely true. skill (and in my case luck) are some sort of balance when it comes to un-capped PvP. myself down`d a few higher lvl runners while others just completely destroyed my lil apu....
Running blade
21-01-13, 14:04
I'm one of the new players that discovered this gem a few weeks ago.I see people asking for penalties to this,penalties to that,remove the le and so on.I play this game because it has a fabulous cyberpunk atmosphere,it's pretty complex,I like to build new weapons,repair,team up with other players and go hunting plus many other things.PvP is not one of them(one of the reasons is the lack of time to have a very good pvp build to stand a chance to the vets).So you could say I play casual,I just fire up Neocron every few days for some fun.
I understand pvp is part of the game it's just that I don't think any of the parties(pvp&pve) should be punished because they play differently.The population is not big,heck it's quite small for a MMO and after I talked with some players I understand it wasn't big even in the glory years.
Nerfing LE players could lower the population even further or you might end up with a full Plaza 1 and the rest of the areas deserted.:p
After all I'm not sure what fun will be to grind sewer rats&spiders even more time with a le penalty.
As long as LE'd players cant join a Clan, Im happy.
Although I wouldnt mind if WoC required the LE to be out.. :p
There's more to PvP than ganking noobs and zone whoring.
I'm one of the new players that discovered this gem a few weeks ago.I see people asking for penalties to this,penalties to that,remove the le and so on.I play this game because it has a fabulous cyberpunk atmosphere,it's pretty complex,I like to build new weapons,repair,team up with other players and go hunting plus many other things.PvP is not one of them(one of the reasons is the lack of time to have a very good pvp build to stand a chance to the vets).So you could say I play casual,I just fire up Neocron every few days for some fun.
I understand pvp is part of the game it's just that I don't think any of the parties(pvp&pve) should be punished because they play differently.The population is not big,heck it's quite small for a MMO and after I talked with some players I understand it wasn't big even in the glory years.
Nerfing LE players could lower the population even further or you might end up with a full Plaza 1 and the rest of the areas deserted.:p
After all I'm not sure what fun will be to grind sewer rats&spiders even more time with a le penalty.
Please believe me when I say your opinion will change.
The PvP in this game is out of this world, especially when there's meaning and politics behind it, which their inevitably will be in such a small, close-knit community.
Welcome to the game anyway :)
Please believe me when I say your opinion will change.
The PvP in this game is out of this world, especially when there's meaning and politics behind it, which their inevitably will be in such a small, close-knit community.
Welcome to the game anyway :)
Not necessarily. I've been playing since NC1 and I can't stand PvP. Like most others back then, I had no LE in. I just want to be left to it, I really enjoy PvE.
Drachenpaladin
21-01-13, 16:02
Not necessarily. I've been playing since NC1 and I can't stand PvP. Like most others back then, I had no LE in. I just want to be left to it, I really enjoy PvE.
^This.
I'm not playing since NC1 but i never l2pvp in this game, the appeal is just not so great.
you wont see any lower level pvp until they rebalance the weapons/types. and nabbl if u beat a dissy spy on an uncapped anything said dissy spy flat out sucked, or you're capped in all cept con or something close.
you wont see any lower level pvp until they rebalance the weapons/types. and nabbl if u beat a dissy spy on an uncapped anything said dissy spy flat out sucked, or you're capped in all cept con or something close.
You would be surprised...
"The Dentist" is just awesome! I am sure that he was not the best PvPer but nevertheless he had the better equipment and was pretty sure capped. And I killed him withg 75 CON. It is in fact not that hard as a Melee-Tank to kill Spies. In fact it is not hard to beat any other class in a 1on1...
You would be surprised...
"The Dentist" is just awesome! I am sure that he was not the best PvPer but nevertheless he had the better equipment and was pretty sure capped. And I killed him withg 75 CON. It is in fact not that hard as a Melee-Tank to kill Spies. In fact it is not hard to beat any other class in a 1on1...
I love my melee tank. I'm so glad you've posted this. :)
You would be surprised...
"The Dentist" is just awesome! I am sure that he was not the best PvPer but nevertheless he had the better equipment and was pretty sure capped. And I killed him withg 75 CON. It is in fact not that hard as a Melee-Tank to kill Spies. In fact it is not hard to beat any other class in a 1on1...
Melee tanks are beasts against spies! (Got beaten once by a melee tank, while on my AK spy o_O - for people who know, how I am with an AK...)
And as long as no one is buffed, they really Arent that bad IMO.
William Antrim
21-01-13, 20:40
Woc Melee is good 1v1, I killed a CS tank on Test server with it. Admittedly this is the test server but the numbers I was chewing up are what make me think that the Hurler Knuckles could be viable against some opponents.
If the other guy has PPU buffs however I think that the Melee guy goes the same way as the APU.... all you can do is swear at them.
Bozz-Von Mel
24-01-13, 04:01
A strange game. The only winning move is not to play. How about a nice game of chess?
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