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Doc Holliday
05-12-12, 09:34
So. At the advice of Lykos im making this thread.

This has been discussed several times in different threads im sure but i want to propose this as a formal change to the Private Eye class. Instead of making him/her grind out to 257m xp for the chance to use woc he should have a lower requirement.

As i see it 257 is derived as the magical number overcap including the 100m needed for woc. So either do this one of 2 ways.

Option A would be to enforce a requirement of 100m xp over the dex requirement for the PE at level 80 Dex.

Option B given the way the PE earns his xp would be to adjust this. What ever the percentage is of the 100m xp over the dex 100 cap requirement should be applied in the same way at dex 80 for a pe. For sake of arguement if its a 25% over cap requirement of the total xp for woc one on a spy then this should be the same for the private eye. I know what i want to say but im not sure im explaining it correctly.

theoretically speaking to try and explain this better. If the magical number for a spy was 50% of his dex xp at dex 100 then it would be X amount. So the same should apply for the pe. 50% of his dex xp at level 80 should be the same magical number that he needs to hit for his woc reqs. Does that make sense?

kane
05-12-12, 10:16
Many problems with PE's from what I hear. I think this would be at least one step in the right step! Good suggestions.

Sorin
05-12-12, 12:04
I can't find the information anywhere, but don't PEs acquire XP in their mainskill at a lower rate than the other three classes, where their mainskill goes to 100? If that's the case, I think it makes more sense that the XP required to reach the WOC levels be reflective of the amount of work required to reach a certain XP point. If PEs don't gain XP at the same percentage-rate to their mainskill as the other 3 classes do, then it's going to take them a hell of a lot longer to get to that same XP point - and I doubt the reward is reflective of this significant extra work. Regardless of how the WOC figures work behind the scenes, each class should reach the end-point after a proportionate amount of work. Otherwise, one character class is being, possibly unintentionally, punished for something they have no control over.

If I'm off base, it's because it's been quite a while since I played.

I think that proportionality is the point you were trying to get at.

William Antrim
05-12-12, 13:17
Yeah Sorin I think you nailed it. I have the same impression.

I will attempt to clarify with actual figures what he is getting at.

Woc is 257m XP currently.

The spy caps (We use the spy due to comparable skill only) dex level at 157m XP and then he needs 100m overcap. This is the 257m overcap. So it is in effect roughly 60% (without doing the maths) of his total XP needed to cap his dex at 100.

The PE caps at 40m so if he was to get 60% more of his total XP that would be another 25 mill over the top roughly. Due to the PE gaining his skills spread over 4 of his stats rather than 2 main ones I think this whole thing needs to addressed in great detail (hence my role of the PE thread a little while ago).

Currently the PE needs 220m over his cap which is ridiculous.

I think a great short term solution would be to reduce the PE to needing 100m overcap (so he would WOC at 140m total xp - with current levelling speeds even a casual player could probably achieve this in a relatively short space of time - Woc should take weeks of committment to levelling but not months or years and it currently feels like years for a PE!

A good person to comment on this might be Der Julu as he has recently Wocced a pe using a redeemer. I am not sure how many hours he put into it but he would be in a better position to comment than me perhaps as he wocced his guy recently (on Titan).


I hope this is clearer bro.

DER_julu
05-12-12, 13:46
Woc should take weeks of committment to levelling but not months or years and it currently feels like years for a PE!

3 weeks, give or take 2 days. this is 3 weeks of doing absolutely nothing but use the highest TL rifle i could find, drugging up to use it and hunt firemobs / hoverbots without end.
tried regants, which quite frankly sucked donkey dicks (apart from being boring as hell), since you get shit xp when teaming (especially on a PE => 4 stat-xp-gain); chaos cave, the same; maybe someone else got a simpler solution (droning, i know... -.-), but that's the way i did it.

once you are done, you start to feel a little different about things emotionally, but rationally, yeah, the needed xp needs to go down, or the xp-gain needs to be addressed - i'd go with the first idea, for obvious reasons (even if i bite my fist out of frustration if everyone else woc's his PE in a matter of days in the future ^^); make it cap+100 mil, and the whole affair would be more than fair...

Dribble Joy
05-12-12, 13:49
As far as I remember, PEs gain dex xp at 80% that of spies. Their cap level is less than 80% total xp than that of a spy (something like 28m), so they actually reach cap faster. However they have the same xp level as everyone else for reaching WoC, this means they reach WoC much slower, especially since they can't use the higher TL weapons that grant more xp and kill mobs faster.

Setting PE WoC to 100m rather than 257m might be a good idea.

William Antrim
05-12-12, 15:21
How many man hours spent though Julu? I mean I can say I have played for weeks but I might have only played once or twice for a few hours in that week whereas you might do the same but have played for 20 or more hours in the same time frame.


Dribble Joy

Do you know this for a fact in 2.2 or is it a hazy memory?

If it is a fact I can see no reason why XP gain should be altered for a PE (80 dex gained at 80% of the rate seems fair). However with the way a PE gets his XP spread across 4 stats I wonder if this is completely accurate.

I think that we are all agreed PE woc XP requirement needs a nerf and sharpish. Just how far that is is another thing.

I think it would most certainly alleviate some of the "remove WOC" arguments too. I know I personally would be a LOT happier.

CMaster
05-12-12, 17:49
William, you seem to be under a slight misapprehension about how XP gain works.

XP is split into the different mainskills not by class, but by action performed. For example, using a rifle contributes to Dex (mostly), Int and Str (not very much). Using a psi spell gives to Psi and Int. Researching give to Int only, while constructing to Int, Dex, Str. Being shot gives Con (and I think str). Cannons give everything except psi! (there may or may not be a difference between HT and LT weapons)

The only situation in which PE receives XP to 4 skills as oppose to 2 for other classes is team XP. XP that comes from the team pool is split between the receiving class's primary stats - everything bar con for the PE, the two skills that cap at 100 for everybody else.

This is complicated even further (as is typical for Neocron) by the fact that each class then has a "learning rate" for each skill. The PE's learning rate for dex is lower than that for spy's dex, hence the slower progress. (This is also why say, capping your spy's psi by going APU and overcapping isn't really practical)

To me, the fairest thing to do would be make PE WoC 100mil over cap, just like for everyone else. Even then, strength WoC would still be some sort of epic, months-long challenge. Yes, WoCing for a PE would be harder - but then capping is easier, so swings and roundabouts.

Dribble Joy
05-12-12, 18:09
Being shot gives Con (and I think str).
Piercing and force dmg do.

Any action that uses a subskill will gain you xp in that mainskill. Some actions will give you xp in other areas as well, like cannons giving con xp and dex weapons giving str xp.


Dribble Joy

Do you know this for a fact in 2.2 or is it a hazy memory?
Hazy memory from the whole of NC. As far as I am aware, PE xp gain has never changed.

William Antrim
05-12-12, 18:14
No misapprehension from me. I understand perfectly how a pe gets his xp. I have levelled six up in nc. I made a few assumptions yes but I'm not really interested in what happens to the other stats. I figured a pe will team due to the new teaming rules and I am also assuming that under current pve situation he will level as rifles in a team so yes he will gain xp as I described above. No misinterpretation here but thank you for the clarification for those who might not know.

CMaster
05-12-12, 18:51
I thought NeoTerm had the numbers of the learning rates on it, can't find them now though.
Maybe someone with access to the codebase could tell us what they currently are?

Netphreak
05-12-12, 19:22
I'd be happy if they just made Paineaser and RoG competitive again, but lowering XP requirement for WoC on PE's would be nice too. ;)

Doc Holliday
05-12-12, 23:46
@ Sorin/Will.

Yes absolutely. Make it quantitative rather than a hard limit. Either way works honestly but it would serve to fix another retarded idea put in by people who should have been taken out behind the server room and shot after 2.2 launched. ;)

Ghostface_Speak
06-12-12, 02:45
I'd be happy if they just made Paineaser and RoG competitive again, but lowering XP requirement for WoC on PE's would be nice too. ;)

what would be REALLY nice: all those things.There are weapons that no one uses since they're "shit",the only valuable weapons reachable for PE's are WoC.Change the useless weapons AND lower WOC Xp req's so that people dont HAVE to level WoC.It will be a matter of preference again,not a requirement to compete.

Netphreak
06-12-12, 15:22
It also dawned on me that the implant bonus changes of 2.2 probably hit the PE the hardest (the old +5 DEX imps) making getting the required DEX to use the WoC guns more difficult than it should be.

William Antrim
06-12-12, 15:49
I just hope that someone acknowledges this. Or at least reads it, strokes their chin and puts a word in to the DEVs.

Doc Holliday
06-12-12, 17:14
what would be REALLY nice: all those things.There are weapons that no one uses since they're "shit",the only valuable weapons reachable for PE's are WoC.Change the useless weapons AND lower WOC Xp req's so that people dont HAVE to level WoC.It will be a matter of preference again,not a requirement to compete.

AMEN to that.

Will. Lykos assured me they read these and will take note. thats all we can ask for. thats why i wrote this. :)

William Antrim
06-12-12, 19:16
I know Triv reads em. He said so in another thread. I meant I hope that whoever is in charge of making the decisions on what goes on on the test server and what does not etc has a look.

Curvedblade
12-12-12, 23:32
what he said :)

CMaster
12-12-12, 23:43
It also dawned on me that the implant bonus changes of 2.2 probably hit the PE the hardest (the old +5 DEX imps) making getting the required DEX to use the WoC guns more difficult than it should be.

Nope. Even more Dex available to PEs from imps these days.

Chuck Norris
13-12-12, 00:04
very true you can get to 108 without drugs now adays, great for rk1000'ing your way to woc :D

the only decent timely'ish fashion to do soon a pe

Torg
13-12-12, 02:58
WOC is over-estimated. we need to change that. and we need to make lower-TL rare (and even non-rare) weapons viable for PvE and PvP. i believe this is the way to more fun while playing and more variety of playing styles, while pushing everyone faster into woc would sadly waste remarkable parts of the game.

William Antrim
13-12-12, 03:07
I agree Torg about the balancing rare and non rare. That has been said since rare weapons have been around. The old faithful Blacksun ray pistol being the only viable non-rare pistol until the advent of the tl92 pulselaser is the exception that proves this requirement.

However - the proposed changes in this thread arent about pushing everyone into woc faster, theyre about making Woc for PE's the same as everyone else. At no point does this change make PE's go any faster to woc than any other class.

Ghostface_Speak
13-12-12, 10:29
However - the proposed changes in this thread arent about pushing everyone into woc faster, theyre about making Woc for PE's the same as everyone else. At no point does this change make PE's go any faster to woc than any other class.
^this

It's obviously some sort of calculation error (one we had to deal with for way too long)

CMaster
13-12-12, 11:29
The other option of course, is as discussed in this thread, to simply drop the different learning rates for different classes. It would then, in principle take the same time for a PE to get to WoC Dex as a Spy from 0/2 (just much longer after cap for a PE).

Practically of course, it would still take a PE a bit longer - slightly less XP due to lower TL weapons, slightly less XP due to team XP divided more ways.

Druid311
30-01-13, 23:41
"I want it." "I want it to have my children!"

L0KI
31-01-13, 20:20
As far as I remember, PEs gain dex xp at 80% that of spies. Their cap level is less than 80% total xp than that of a spy (something like 28m), so they actually reach cap faster. However they have the same xp level as everyone else for reaching WoC, this means they reach WoC much slower, especially since they can't use the higher TL weapons that grant more xp and kill mobs faster.

Setting PE WoC to 100m rather than 257m might be a good idea.

100 mill sounds perfectly reasonable to me.

William Antrim
01-02-13, 05:55
Next patch please!

Druid311
03-02-13, 23:19
Next patch please!

Yes please :P

Dumdies
06-02-13, 08:32
This sounds great and more realistic to actually gain woc, i have been droning my PE most days for about 2 months til about 2 weeks ago when i gave up.

Arista Barret
14-02-13, 22:17
Woc is supposed to be one hundred million over cap right? Pe caps dex at about thirty million. so why isn't woc dex for a Pe 130 million?

Biglines
14-02-13, 22:27
Woc is supposed to be one hundred million over cap right? Pe caps dex at about thirty million. so why isn't woc dex for a Pe 130 million?

woc is at about 260m total xp, which for tanks, monks and spies just happens to be 100m overcap.

it's a pain, and as countless threads have already said, would be good to be seen changed, but a pe's cap is only 30 million, which is really easy to cap, so just a 100m overcap for woc would be unfair to other classes.

just saying make everything 100m overcap is too simplistic

William Antrim
14-02-13, 23:40
woc is at about 260m total xp, which for tanks, monks and spies just happens to be 100m overcap.

it's a pain, and as countless threads have already said, would be good to be seen changed, but a pe's cap is only 30 million, which is really easy to cap, so just a 100m overcap for woc would be unfair to other classes.

just saying make everything 100m overcap is too simplistic

No its not. Not in the slightest. PE has had the shaft for a long time. It is time they got the love. It is a simple fix.

CM Punk
15-02-13, 01:40
It's just sick to bring a PE on Woc, don't know how the actual players do it on their own. For good advices to level a PE up to Woc I pay in unressed :D

Arista Barret
15-02-13, 02:44
I am working on my third woc Pe. It would take more time to woc a Pe at 100 mil overcap even at 130 total than it takes to cap other classes. To say unfair to other classes? Wtf ? I think you missed the Pe point of view.

Doc Holliday
15-02-13, 06:05
which is really easy to cap, so just a 100m overcap for woc would be unfair to other classes.

just saying make everything 100m overcap is too simplistic


LOL!!!!

So 20 Dex levels that the PE doesnt get balances out that issue. Shot down in flames. Dude seriously. think about what you just wrote.

100m over cap is More than enough. Especially when factoring in xp gain rates for a pe.

I can disagree with different opinions but see the point of view at the same time but that comment is beyond ridiculous.

Simplistic is good. its 257m Xp for woc 1. Stat 100 is 157m xp.

Biglines
15-02-13, 08:27
LOL!!!!

So 20 Dex levels that the PE doesnt get balances out that issue. Shot down in flames. Dude seriously. think about what you just wrote.

100m over cap is More than enough. Especially when factoring in xp gain rates for a pe.

I can disagree with different opinions but see the point of view at the same time but that comment is beyond ridiculous.

Simplistic is good. its 257m Xp for woc 1. Stat 100 is 157m xp.

might wanna actually read before quoting just one small bit of it...

All I'm saying is that randomly pulling 100m out of a hat is not the way to go about it. you yourself say that PE's level at different rates, and I fully agree that the 230m overcap is ridiculous, but 80 levels (30m) + 100m would almost certainly be much faster than the 100m + 100 levels (160m) on spies, tanks or apu's. The way to go about it is to actually calculate honestly what the same equivalent amount of xp would be, based on actual calculations, instead of randomly pretending PE's are the same as the other classes.

And yes, I fully understand that it's possible that I am making a mistake and have misjudged the leveling speed for a pe. It still does not invalidate my point that simply taking 100m is too simplistic a measure. it should be recalculated from scratch and actually take those leveling speeds into account, not just pretend that pe's are the same as apu's, tanks and spies. Balancing this kind of stuff should be based on facts and testing, not random numbers taken from unequivalent classes just because it "seems" fair.

edit: hell, my post mostly agrees with the option B of your own opening post... 100m is a random number that has been taken from the the other classes, that you yourself show to be entirely different from the leveling speed of PE's. then why are people so focussed on 100m? just because it's a nice round number?

if you want to be certain that woc xp is fair for different classes, xp needs to be calculated based on the classes themselves, so ppu's level much faster in teams that they do now (ever tried to woc a ppu in a team?), rifles and pistols need leveling spots where their high 1on1 damage output allows them to level reasonably the same as other ways of leveling. this obsession with the specific 100m overcap is the only thing I am against. it is an arbitrary number that might work for apu's, droning spies, and aoe'ing tanks, but for all other play styles it is not relevant.

Arista Barret
15-02-13, 09:05
Randomly out of a Hat? You might wanna actually read before quoting just one small bit of it...considering the time it takes to get woc, on the other three classes, after 167mil cap. Also considering the amount of time it takes a PE to gain 100mil after cap...I still have to say 167mil would be my guess for fair and even grounds on all classes. You can crunch the numbers of you like but it you will not be able to say any class is exactly equal. Simple.

Dropout
15-02-13, 10:44
if you want to be certain that woc xp is fair for different classes, xp needs to be calculated based on the classes themselves, so ppu's level much faster in teams that they do now (ever tried to woc a ppu in a team?), rifles and pistols need leveling spots where their high 1on1 damage output allows them to level reasonably the same as other ways of leveling. this obsession with the specific 100m overcap is the only thing I am against. it is an arbitrary number that might work for apu's, droning spies, and aoe'ing tanks, but for all other play styles it is not relevant.
This is something that would be awesome. However, although probably pretty hard to do.

I actually still think that a PE would be slower to get WoC on, even if it only needed 100mil overcap..
It is pure hell to get to use RK1000's on a PE (3 MC5's needed IIRC).

Doc Holliday
15-02-13, 18:21
If 100m is such a random number then work out the % 100m is from 157m which is level 100 for a given stat.

Apply that % to what the total xp is at a PE's dex cap of 80m and work that out. thats logical to me.

Teaming got fixed also. I wocced my ppu in a team. I didnt do it the apu way. i levelled up to 85 psi then lommed and did the rest as a ppu. its not that hard at all. Monk intel is still worse.

Biglines
15-02-13, 22:25
If 100m is such a random number then work out the % 100m is from 157m which is level 100 for a given stat.

Apply that % to what the total xp is at a PE's dex cap of 80m and work that out. thats logical to me.

Teaming got fixed also. I wocced my ppu in a team. I didnt do it the apu way. i levelled up to 85 psi then lommed and did the rest as a ppu. its not that hard at all. Monk intel is still worse.

not sure if that is a fair calculation (i think you should include xp gain there somewhere), but ye, sounds about right

and good to hear about ppu, it used to be hell to do in teams.

I've always wondered why intelligence which is a main skill for the monk, and is even used in the fighting (psi pool) is so slow to level.

Dribble Joy
16-02-13, 01:55
PE's dex cap of 80m
Either you were talking about the 80 dex cap of PEs or were assuming PEs capped at 80m xp.
The latter is not correct, PEs cap at around 24m xp.

Going from 24m to 257m at the xp rate of a PE takes significantly more time than another class does to reach 100m overcap.

I would prefer PEs to hit WoC at the same time as the other classes, but I am unaware of the exact xp rates. I threw out the 100m xp total as a guess.

Doc Holliday
16-02-13, 05:29
Snip

yes it was a typo. As i said the 100m came from the fact that 157m is Dex/Con/Str/Psi/Int 100 and 100m overcap is 257m. Applying that is the simple way to shorten the PE's task of woc without having to get all mathematical on it. It was the sledgehammer fix not the surgical fix.

The 2nd equation doing it percentage based is more complex ( i was considering this from both a coding aspect and that of an end user ) as it could be more difficult for a player to figure out what his actual xp value he needs to attain is. Hence the 100m overcap. Still a MASSIVE reduction in the grind to woc for the private eye and it kept it simple.

I do try and cover all aspects when i write a suggestion like this. i mulled it for a long long time. Too bad i wasnt involved in the balancing process initially like some forum users were. We might not be in such a mess :)

If i did my math right 100/157 = 0.63 x 100 63%

63% of 24m = 15120000m so that makes 15.1m for easy figure. Doesnt seem right though....... I think i might be miscalulating this. Math isnt my strongest suit im afraid. Feel free to correct me.

Deus Ex Machina
16-02-13, 10:21
I'd think the correct amount of XP would be as high, so that a PE needs the same time to reach WOC than a SPY when we are talking about DEX.

And then its not a percentage of the max XP before overcapping that is needed, but the leveling time needs to be taken in account. And thats a bit difficult to calculate without knowing the exact numbers, but I think I can propably kick out a formula for it, were the right numbers would have to just have to be inserted to know which would be the right point.

So what would be needed:
-) The Dex Leveling Speed compared to a Spy [lets say its 80% for the example below]
-) The damage disadvantage a PE has in High End Weapons (Less Damage = Slower Leveling) [lets say 10% for the example below]
-) The total XP a PE needs for capping (XP of all levels combined [I have no idea, I'll take the 24million someone mentioned for the example, I'll guess thats the number?]

So a PE can cap faster than a Spy, but than cannot increase in Damage more, but till that point he is only handicapped by the leveling speed. so we have to take 80% of the PE Cap, thats 80% of 24 million, thats 19,2 millon XP
Now we take from the Total XP a Spy needs for WOC the cap from the PE, thats 257 million I think, minus the 24 million (they are accounted for), resulting in 233 Million XP unaccounted for.
Now we calculate the 233 million down by the leveling disadvantage of the PE, in this example 80% which results in 186,4 million XP.
From these we take the probable damage disadvantage from weapons too, 10 % in this example, resulting in 167,76 million XP
Combined we have 167,76 millions plus 19,2 millions resulting in 186,96 million total XP the PE would gain in the same time a spy needs to gain 257 million XP.

Of course the percentages are arbitrary taken by me and would have to be calculated or known, but I think the way would be sound.
And of course other things factor in to the leveling too sometimes (finding enemies and so on) but 1) I was just number crunching, and 2) I don't think those things are that relevant.

William Antrim
16-02-13, 18:25
Im crap at maths but deus youre saying that by your formula the pe takes almost twice as long to get to woc?

Dribble Joy
16-02-13, 19:25
The question is, do we want the time to WoC from starting char to be the same, or just the over capping?

Assuming PEs gain xp at 80% (it was a figure I remember from years ago but I'm not sure how accurate it is) the rate of the other classes (factoring in ability to use higher TL weapons), then the former would simply be 80% of the total xp (206m xp) and the latter would be cap plus 80% of the over-cap (24+80=104m xp).

Biglines
16-02-13, 19:27
lot's of smart talk
Very well thought out post, if not that calculation, then something very like it should be possible to use.

I agree that it would be impossible to take into account things like finding enemies, though I think those would be the same for pe's and spies, and as such equivalent and can be dismissed from the calculation.

William Antrim
16-02-13, 22:04
They call them common variables I think.

Biglines
16-02-13, 22:40
The question is, do we want the time to WoC from starting char to be the same, or just the over capping?

Assuming PEs gain xp at 80% (it was a figure I remember from years ago but I'm not sure how accurate it is) the rate of the other classes (factoring in ability to use higher TL weapons), then the former would simply be 80% of the total xp (206m xp) and the latter would be cap plus 80% of the over-cap (24+80=104m xp).
just read this (was posting my last psot while u posted that), and you actually bring up a good point, we are complaining about the PE reaching woc so long, but what about that it is faster to level a pe to cap than for other classes? if pe's are balanced to be effective without WOC, wouldn't that mean that the pe's are simply faster to be pvp ready?

I'm not saying this is necessarily a bad thing, but it is something worth considering.

Deus Ex Machina
17-02-13, 09:07
Im crap at maths but deus youre saying that by your formula the pe takes almost twice as long to get to woc?

I am not exactly sure what you are aiming at, so I'll answer both possibilities I see ;-)

1) If you mean that, if the formula is used for WOC XP of PEs he needs twice as long, then no. It should make it more or less even on the time scale (I reread my post and haven't found an error in the logic yet, but you never know). Of course the percentages and numbers would have to be the real ingame differences.

2) If you mean that at the moment the Pe takes twice as long, then i don't know that, since I don't know how if percentages and numbers are acurrate. If one believes it is a more ore less acceptable approximation at the moment (I am not sure about that), then the Pe would at the moment take about 40% longer to get to WOC XP.

Arista Barret
19-02-13, 03:13
Idk the numbers either but ill give another example. i wocced a spy with a healing light. it was fun and i got Alot of techs for the clan. it took about a week of just enjoying the character. with my pe had to locate two mc5 chips and rare chips to get the dex for a redeemer. its been over a month now and i still only have 206mil exp. the thought of another 52mil at the pe rate makes me not even want to see a redeemer ever again.

lindian
20-02-13, 17:58
Idk the numbers either but ill give another example. i wocced a spy with a healing light. it was fun and i got Alot of techs for the clan. it took about a week of just enjoying the character. with my pe had to locate two mc5 chips and rare chips to get the dex for a redeemer. its been over a month now and i still only have 206mil exp. the thought of another 52mil at the pe rate makes me not even want to see a redeemer ever again.

you can woc mine if ya want ;)

wocing PE is a pain in the ass. just thinking about it makes me hate my dex 80 pe

Satan2k2
22-02-13, 12:29
PE is getting much lesser XP than Spy on DEX
PE needs to do more overcap than Spy on DEX


This means, we need to calculate:
a Spy needs to overcap 63.7% of his cap XP (100 mio out of 157 mio)
a PE gets only about 35% of the XP of a Spy in DEX.

Now we have some ways to be fair to the PE:

Use only 35% XP gain of the 100 mio overcap: 35 mio overcap.
Increase the 35% xp gain to 100% and do 100 mio overcap.
Use only the 63.7% of his cap to get woc: 25.5 mio overcap.

lindian
22-02-13, 15:49
PE is getting much lesser XP than Spy on DEX
PE needs to do more overcap than Spy on DEX



the real problem is not the overcap needed. the real problem is that PE pretty much sucks without WoC.

demonssword
27-03-13, 11:59
Maybe an idea to change the XP gain could happen. So as others said, currently the trouble is that with the low xp needed to hit your normal cap, then having to get so much before you can WOC it and getting that XP at a slower rate due to how many stats your group XP gets shared in to.
I don't think I would agree that they should just have to get the X% above (I think its about 65%) additional xp overcap. However the 100mil overcap may also be to low as it means if you drone it solo you could get WOC on a PE before a Spy could cap.

An idea could be placing an NPC somewhere that PEs can use that changes their XP gain from being int/str/dex/psi in to just dex. This NPC or machine whatever you have it as is only able to be used 1 time and is not reversible. So once you commit to the path of WOC by going to the NPC in the WOC temple and saying you wish to follow the path, then you will gain the XP you need at the same rate as spys do. This could help solve the problem if it is a problem.

CritiNator
27-03-13, 15:29
Dev's should really give statement on this. This is the reason i don't start PE. I don't like the idea, that i need to drone my self to woc, with POS drones and spend millions on drugs. Lowering the PE Woc xp requirement is the only option.
It has to be lowered with % number. PE Should need bout 30M xp to woc on top of cap. Currently it needs over 200M exp and thats ridiculous.
DEVS WE NEED STATEMENT, please

William Antrim
27-03-13, 15:30
However the 100mil overcap may also be to low as it means if you drone it solo you could get WOC on a PE before a Spy could cap.

Huh? Based on what figures?

100m over cap for a PE is the simplest and fairest way to do things. Having an entirely new npc to change the XP gain system just for this one problem sounds just like NASA spending $30m designing pens that write upside down in space. I think I will play the Russians here and grab myself a pencil. Don't get me wrong I am all for new solutions but making something this complicated when the game is being coded by people on their days off is just silly.

SilentEye
27-03-13, 15:39
Someone explain this to me please, I've never reached WOC level yet.

On a Spy you need 260M XP to get WOC.

On a PE you need 260M XP to get WOC.

Won't a Spy and PE reach the 260M in the same speed? Even though PE caps faster, they still reach 260M at the same time right?

It only feels longer because the cap is reached much faster?

William Antrim
27-03-13, 15:56
reread the thread. It explains it there. Three pages ago.

Netphreak
27-03-13, 18:48
reread the thread. It explains it there. Three pages ago.

Any input from the dev's on this? I'm curious to see what thoughts they have about it.

demonssword
27-03-13, 22:20
Huh? Based on what figures?

Well PE cap for dex is 36-40mil for level 80 dex (I think) so if you went 100mil over that its say 140mil to cap + woc.
Vs
Spy cap for dex is 157mil to level 100 dex.

So 140mil (PE WOC) vs 160mil (Spy 100 Dex). If you are soloing you don't get your points spread between all your stats as far as im aware. Of course Spys would get an advantage of higher level drones in my example such as being able to use punishers (though both can use the RK drones given enough drugs and imps). So likely chance is given my theory that a PE if you only had to 100mil overcap to woc, could do before a spy could reach basic cap.

William Antrim
28-03-13, 01:12
Well PE cap for dex is 36-40mil for level 80 dex (I think) so if you went 100mil over that its say 140mil to cap + woc.
Vs
Spy cap for dex is 157mil to level 100 dex.

So 140mil (PE WOC) vs 160mil (Spy 100 Dex). If you are soloing you don't get your points spread between all your stats as far as im aware. Of course Spys would get an advantage of higher level drones in my example such as being able to use punishers (though both can use the RK drones given enough drugs and imps). So likely chance is given my theory that a PE if you only had to 100mil overcap to woc, could do before a spy could reach basic cap.

I cant work out if you think this is a bad thing or not? I think even with your very rough calculations an effect like this can only be a good thing.

demonssword
28-03-13, 16:05
I cant work out if you think this is a bad thing or not? I think even with your very rough calculations an effect like this can only be a good thing.

I will reply with a post from the post you quoted asking "based on what figures?"


I don't think I would agree that they should just have to get the X% above (I think its about 65%) additional xp overcap. However the 100mil overcap may also be to low as it means if you drone it solo you could get WOC on a PE before a Spy could cap.

So I still think that having to go 220mil overcap for a PE is way way way to much, however 100mil overcap because of what I said above I think is still to low. Even at 120mil overcap for a PE that is still just as much as spys need for 100dex, so split the difference, so PEs currently need 220mil and spys 100mil overcap to get to 260mil and WOC level. So maybe 160mil overcap for a PE (total 200mil).
This is hell of a grind without any progression till the end, and the spys would have an easier time maybe in grinding it due to having access to better equipment, however the spy would still have to be grinding out an extra 60mil for the privilege.

William Antrim
28-03-13, 18:03
But you have to factor in the damage done by rare drones that spies can use. If we could plot the time on a graph I am pretty sure there would be a credible rise at the point when a spy hits rare drones and thus a decent "sprint" to the finish line that is obtaining woc xp.

By your calculations and in order to give the PE an equal footing in this regard I believe he/she too would need access to a rare drone (incumbent with the rare dmg bonus that rare weapons as a whole get over store bought weaponry).

Rare RK drones for example would be awesome.

In another thread a while back I proposed the introduction of a filler drone (in between RK-1000 and RK-500) called RK-750 that would wedge in quite nicely for PEs wanting to Woc.

If these changes came in I would also sincerely love some form of rare RK drone too. That would be sweet.

P.s grinding 60m xp with a rare drone is not actually that much work. It is probably 7-8 hours solo in average conditions (normal play state i mean). I know of a person who grinded over 100m xp in 7 hours once (on Titan) at normal XP gain. So yeah 60m is not that difficult to achieve as a spy.

As a PE 60m is a fucking nightmare to gain and therein lies the problem. XP gain goes hand in hand with access to good weaponry, which coupled with extended level caps makes the PE a fucking nightmare to play, even though he is the best class in the game to play with (in my opinion).

Dropout
28-03-13, 18:28
As a PE 60m is a fucking nightmare to gain and therein lies the problem. XP gain goes hand in hand with access to good weaponry, which coupled with extended level caps makes the PE a fucking nightmare to play, even though he is the best class in the game to play with (in my opinion).

Best?! Most fun, sure.. But far from the best :p

William Antrim
28-03-13, 19:04
Best?! Most fun, sure.. But far from the best :p

What is the difference? :)

It is all about Woc Pe. He is the coolest looking (woc pa) and has the best versatility and durability of any class and is a demon when played well. Therefore he is the best as he is the most fun. Tanks are so simple and brutal, the PE is a finesse fighter. The only thing I can compare a PE to is a hybrid of old in terms of play style.

Netphreak
28-03-13, 23:25
Yup, PE's were always straight up fun. One thing that confuses me though was them having 65 CON and 60 STR, always thought it should be the other way round... But hey I'm going off topic.

P.S. PE's WoC PA looks awesome.

Jest
28-03-13, 23:55
The issue of PE WoC seems to be addressing only a symptom of the true problem which is the necessity of WoC for Private Eyes. The difference for my PE when he gets WoC is going to be huge and that's with a low tech rifle build without WoC armor.

Because of this, I disagree that it is unfair for a PE to get WoC before a Spy caps DEX. In fact I'd say it is essential that a Private Eye gets it earlier. But I'd also like to suggest that a fair trade off would be that a PE is limited to only 3 levels of WoC instead of the normal 5 of the other classes. Is it a fair assumption to say that no PE on Titan has reached level 4 of WoC or is that incorrect?

Dribble Joy
29-03-13, 01:21
The issue of PE WoC seems to be addressing only a symptom of the true problem which is the necessity of WoC for Private Eyes.
As it is for spies as well, it's just that it takes considerably longer to reach it. Even if WoC is not a necessity, the imbalance should be addressed.


Because of this, I disagree that it is unfair for a PE to get WoC before a Spy caps DEX. In fact I'd say it is essential that a Private Eye gets it earlier.
I personally would prefer that the time taken to reach WoC for all classes is the same.


Is it a fair assumption to say that no PE on Titan has reached level 4 of WoC or is that incorrect?
More than likely, though there have been several PEs on Terra that have gone up to an beyond this.

William Antrim
29-03-13, 02:22
A natural by product of six plus years of levelling.

Doc Holliday
29-03-13, 07:11
Even at 120mil overcap for a PE that is still just as much as spys need for 100dex, so split the difference, so PEs currently need 220mil and spys 100mil overcap to get to 260mil and WOC level. So maybe 160mil overcap for a PE (total 200mil).


aside the fact this last part confused the fuck out of me as to where your picking your figures from regards what the overcap should be DO NOT be dumb enough to fall foul of the comparison between pe and spy.

20 extra skill levels is more than enough compensation for the extra xp a spy has to grind for.

Anyone who argues that fact is simply dumb in my opinion. Just wanted to reiterate that point.

Dropout
29-03-13, 08:19
What is the difference? :)

It is all about Woc Pe. He is the coolest looking (woc pa) and has the best versatility and durability of any class and is a demon when played well. Therefore he is the best as he is the most fun. Tanks are so simple and brutal, the PE is a finesse fighter. The only thing I can compare a PE to is a hybrid of old in terms of play style.

Meh I dont like any PA's for PE's.. Hell I even had a noPA Freeman setup on Walker at some point.. If only the SWAT rifle wasent WoC.... :(
But a IAR PE (obviously with WoC PA) is actually probably the most powerfull PVP character possible atm.

Before 2.2, PE's was a very fun and versatile class.. Now, not really.. Its either Xbow or IAR, and not a lot of versatility... Yeah I miss shitbuffing and usefull DB...!
And obviously all the usefull lower TL weapons..

Netphreak
29-03-13, 11:42
snip...
But a IAR PE (obviously with WoC PA) is actually probably the most powerfull PVP character possible atm.

Surely you are not going to be able to come close to maximizing the damage potential of an IAR on a PE unless you are sacrificing DEX implants and relying on being drugged up to the max to use the IAR...



Before 2.2, PE's was a very fun and versatile class.. Now, not really.. Its either Xbow or IAR, and not a lot of versatility... Yeah I miss shitbuffing and usefull DB...!
And obviously all the usefull lower TL weapons..

^ This.

demonssword
29-03-13, 12:15
By your calculations and in order to give the PE an equal footing in this regard I believe he/she too would need access to a rare drone (incumbent with the rare dmg bonus that rare weapons as a whole get over store bought weaponry).

Trouble with that being shop bought ones of course are recrafted to 99% for anyone who would be going for WOC, and likely chance is you aren't going to be using ones crafted from rareparts for the 110-120% dmg/freq. Though I know the rare drones do have bonus dmg above their TL, same as things like the Prototype TT Epic Weapons.



In another thread a while back I proposed the introduction of a filler drone (in between RK-1000 and RK-500) called RK-750 that would wedge in quite nicely for PEs wanting to Woc.

An RK-750 could help a PE, though as I said before a PE can actually use the RK-1000 given enough drugs and the right imps. So all adding this drone would really do is just be a bridge for any droner to get between the 2 of them, or maybe just be one you wouldn't have to drug on.


P.s grinding 60m xp with a rare drone is not actually that much work. It is probably 7-8 hours solo in average conditions (normal play state i mean). I know of a person who grinded over 100m xp in 7 hours once (on Titan) at normal XP gain. So yeah 60m is not that difficult to achieve as a spy.

As a PE 60m is a fucking nightmare to gain and therein lies the problem. XP gain goes hand in hand with access to good weaponry, which coupled with extended level caps makes the PE a fucking nightmare to play, even though he is the best class in the game to play with (in my opinion).

Yep I get this point, when soloing Regants on my spy with a Part-Nem to kill the boss quick then using a Punisher for the adds, I could clear the room in about 5 mins or so (I think) and walked out with around 3mil a run I think. While doing the same on my PE who is now WoC, I was lucky to clear the room in about 10mins and even though I was taking longer to do it walked out with a max of about 2mil.


aside the fact this last part confused the fuck out of me as to where your picking your figures from regards what the overcap should be DO NOT be dumb enough to fall foul of the comparison between pe and spy.

20 extra skill levels is more than enough compensation for the extra xp a spy has to grind for.

Anyone who argues that fact is simply dumb in my opinion. Just wanted to reiterate that point.

Only reason I used Spy and PE as comparison is both using Dex. But as I said in my opinion is that 100mil overcap for a PE is just to low, but I agree that going to 220mil overcap to reach the same as the other classes need is to much. Especially so if you take the figures I posted in this post above saying that roughly you are getting 2/3 of the xp a spy is getting for clearing the room (2mil for PE, 3mil for spy) and taking double the time to do it (10min for PE, 5min for Spy), So in essence you are getting 1/3 of the XP per min.


Surely you are not going to be able to come close to maximizing the damage potential of an IAR on a PE unless you are sacrificing DEX implants and relying on being drugged up to the max to use the IAR...

That is pretty much the case to use the IAR, you need to be using Rifle MC5/Rifle Rare + another dex chip like a cord advancement (preferably an mc5 pistol or riggers though because its more dex and also a bunch of tech combat and weapon lore) the and dex/reflex backbone and all that lot. The last brain slot can either be a dex chip of some and 1 dex drug. Or go for a PPR or something and have to use all 3 dex drugs to get up to the dex needed for it. The other option being using a recycle or repair glove for a bonus to the dex but you sacrifice some tech combat and the ability to use psi stuff. Though using the pistol MC5 also stops you using blessed deflector without using a psi drug.

One suggestion that was posed in another thread though would derail this one a bit so am only mentioning it is that they could lower the requirements of current WOC items so that you didn't need to have as much to use them all. So PEs could use things like the CAR-47 if all WOC weapons were taken down to say 100-105Dex required with WOC 1. Its not a major change, but might allow a bit more balance between classes... though as said this is off topic and I'm sure the topic is somewhere else. Might also help if the S.W.A.T weapons actually were good, as currently they are to low in damage and the main ammo they were used for doesn't work as it was para ammo.


-------------------------

Having a play around with numbers, it is actually possible for a PE to use Punishers before being WOC as well. Using PA 3 + Exp-Ref booster 2.4 + All 3 dex MC5 + co-ord advancement 3 + Dex Glove and all 3 Dex Drugs you get to 115 Dex.... though you are also not great on the stats and without LE you are a bit vulnerable. However using the higher TL drone means you would probably do more damage and get more XP in a faster time.

Dropout
30-03-13, 00:30
Surely you are not going to be able to come close to maximizing the damage potential of an IAR on a PE unless you are sacrificing DEX implants and relying on being drugged up to the max to use the IAR...
Trust me, the damage a PE can do with an IAR is straight up scary. Obviously a spy will be able to put out more damage, but the PE can have (much) better resists than the spy.

To give an example: I did a test with a friend..
He had multiple GM spawned Ion pistols, I had 2 IAR's. Both PE's and both at 200-220 PC/RC.
We stood still, infront of eachother - headshots only.
He dropped with me still having more than half Health left - and he didnt have to reload the Ions either ofc.
And people have whined a lot about fast-switching Ion pistols in the past..


Uh and on topic: 100mil overcap needed on a PE would be perfectly fine. It wouldnt make the PE get WoC incredible fast or anything, AND as it is currently - A PE without WoC is a shitty PE :(