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View Full Version : Reward Taking out Law Enforcer Chip (LE)



Deus Ex Machina
03-12-12, 14:04
The theme has come up a lot in other threads, but as its a little hidden I think an extra thread is in order, if not merge it at your leisure.

I have thought a bit about the Law Enforcer, and come to the conclusion: At the moment, taking it out is PUNISHING you XP wise. Why? Because if you are just once killed while trying to level you loose time to get your imps in, to get back to the place you were, repair things, etc.

That can't happen if you let the LE inside your head.

The only incentive is the extra brainslot, which for most isn't worth it till late (I tend to take that thing out at 0/2 or close, because I think its right, but thats just stubborness).

So, if not for conviction, most people would agree I think, that if something has more negatives than positives, that you can easily see, then you will not do it.

But in the end taking LE out should be more attractive.
The solutions might be many, but the old ones in a new coat would do nicely.

1) You pay for your protection (Slight deduction from Money gained from Mobs)

2) If you take the LE out you get Risk Compensation XP wise. I mean you get MORE if you take it out. Not less if you let it stay in the head. The wording is important here, no punishing on that side for LE Users. Take the XP gain of now as basis, and those without LE get e.g. 20% more / faster.
This should naturally also be engraved on the Law Enforcer itself, that you will be rewarded with more XP for taking it out.
Coincidentally it also helps those that think they level to slow.

I am sure there are more ideas out there, also i am sure that the gap should not be too big, as playing LEd should still be an viable option - but it should be MORE attractive for many to take it out, not LESS attrative than with LE as it is at the moment.
And please remember: For the most parts, Players just randomly killing you is not the thing I said why letting LE in is more attractive right now.

MAKE TAKING LE OUT REWARDING, NOT PUNISHING PLEASE :angel:

kane
03-12-12, 14:50
Few random crap that comes to mind:

- 100% exp boost. Yes its a big increase to some but then again you can compare one class to another and get a 500% boost difference so not really that bad. The point is to encourage you to take it. 10% is like oh great I will save 10 min today of my 100 min leveling not really that special.
- 50-100% more credits. Really depends here though as far as I know you can't farm credits to much from killing mobs but if I'm wrong then maybe increasing this 100% will cause to many issues.
- Could do bonus like Genrep costs less because you don't have a locator chip in your head anymore and it does not have to be say specially tuned again when you spawn idk hehe.
- Higher costs at shops? Maybe because they know your being monitored by NCPD and their not as friendly to you because of that?

IDK I could go on forever. The problem is there is going be people pissed off with the idea. The problem is most these are going be farming alts I fear. Maybe some people play just to play PVP only I mean I sort of do but the idea of how this game is ending up becoming a game where now you need alts for just LE stuff so you can go farm is just crazy.

No Risk no game?

Torg
03-12-12, 16:05
there was both xp and money loss of imho 25% back then in NC 1 (pre 2004) which was removed on request of the playerbase in imho late 02. i believe this situation hasnt changed, so you probably need to get along with it: use the LE or dont, its up to you.

the real problem here is "unconsented PvP", and all MMOs need to address it, and provide ways of playing without being attacked or killed. because a lot of ppl want to play this way.

let me make another suggestion, just as a thought experiment: lets keep Titan as it is and open a new server (i.e. "Sedna") without LE, but PvP switched off by default, unless you are member of a clan and in an official war with another clan, so those warring clans can kill each other. in any other case ppl cant attack/kill each other. pretty carebear, isnt it? would you want to leave it to the playerbase where to play? my bet is that there are more cooperative than competitive players in this retro-mmo, so Sedna would be more populated than Titan.

any of you remember Neptune? we already tried a PvP server, and it failed misereably. want to give it another try?

Mr. Kassad
03-12-12, 16:42
"unconsented PvP" ... This one cracked me up! :lol:

"I was full of shame when I had to use the GR to Typhoon Memorial having 40% SI. Everybody knew I got killed in the wastelands. I felt so dirty when the poker used his implant tool on me. His eyes were reflecting the disgust he felt. I knew: From that day on I will always be considered as 'broken goods'. No clan will ever accept me within their ranks again."
------------ (that's the shit coming to my mind when I saw your phrasing^^)---------------

Back to normal:
Neocron is a damn rough place to live. If you don't want PVP you have to keep your LE in. This is a great concession to everyone that only wants to PvE.
But if you want PvP you have to play by the rules and those are: DIE DIE DIE DIE DIE get better DIE DIE DIE DIE get even better DIE DIE WIN WIN DIE DIE know your enemies WIN WIN WIN DIE DIE DIE WIN...

There are plenty of safe zones, too.
Lots of PvP-Runner would call me a carebear because I don't like noob ganking and I am from Mars (the one slot RP-Server) but when there is one thing that does not fit in the noecron universe then it is a "consenting pvp-system".
As soon as you rip out the LE you consent to being in danger. I dislike the current "I kill everyone no matter what faction" mindset of the community too but what you ask for is even sadder.

Ivan Eres
03-12-12, 17:10
The only way that I see to encourage people taking their LE out is to make PvP fun for most of the players.

For example, this would mean that players with the best store bought stuff and weapons should still be able to compete against a fully geared up char with mc5 imps, rares, and WOC.

For example, there could only be a 5% advantage for a player with all that special stuff compared to a "normal" guy.

Of course this is all debatable and it is only a suggestion.

But this way it would not be so important to have the best stuff and WOC before taking the LE out.

As it is today you don't stand any chance against a char with all the aforementioned stuff if you got only the store bought weapons and imps.

All that counts for PvP are rare weapons, mc5 imps, and WOC (especially for Spies and their AK47).

That's a pity, and that's the reason even the PvP people are keeping their LE in for ages, which is very bizarre.

Regards

Dribble Joy
03-12-12, 17:16
Taking out the LE is consenting to PvP, in all it's forms. Ganking and griefing are a different matter. Forcing people who do not want to to take part in PvP is to make a non-consenting system.

I'm not sure what can be done to encourage LE removal without simply pandering to frag-kiddies.

Ivan Eres
03-12-12, 18:13
I'm not sure what can be done to encourage LE removal without simply pandering to frag-kiddies.

Yeah it is difficult because there is no perfect way on a mixed PvE / PvP server.

The only real solution would be two servers.

One PvE server where you can take out and put in the LE anytime you want (like the invitation to PvP in other MMOs).

And one PvP server where no LE exists and no safezones, so that PvP is possible everywhere.

However, dividing the population makes no sense at the moment, so we gotta find a way to get along on Titan. Maybe the subject "LE" isn't that important anyway, but more the overall PvP balance. It doesn't matter much if a few percent keep their LE in if the PvP people can take out their LE early so that more PvP is happening.

Doc Holliday
03-12-12, 19:03
It was early 03 when the LE Malus got removed. maybe around the time i joined the forum but im not totally sure. i do remember having it in and seeing the fact that i could get easier access to weapons etc and then removing it at 0/2.

I would go with some kind of xp gain for removing it. pure and simple. dont punish people for keeping it in but reward them for taking it out. then the pvpers will take it out and take their lumps and the people who prefer pve will leave it in and lose nothing.

Chuck Norris
03-12-12, 19:13
the grievers on here just cant stand people leveling up with LE it amazes me of the elaborate crazy stories they come up with to justify why people should have to take their le out

Faid
03-12-12, 19:26
The problem is that there is no effective pvp at lower levels, the game simply isnt designed for it. When leveling you are not set up for pvp, you are not specced to kill other players (ie: armor, resists, weapons). The "hardcore" server was already tried and it failed miserably. Griefers want to grief, that is all there is to it. All this would do is encourage people to quit.

I don't see what the problem is with people having LE's in, some people in this game just simply want to kill everyone they see regardless of their level or the situation. These are the people that want everyone to remove their LE's. There is something to be said for the dangers of playing NC in a post apocalyptic setting, but unfortunately, for reasons stated above, it doesnt work.

Spoon
03-12-12, 19:29
I don't think changing the mechanics of the LE or more servers are necessary...

I think there are other factors that need looked at, that are reasons people don't take thier LE's out;

One is the borked mob damage and broken loot tables, which has pretty much everyone hunting one kind of mob(fire)..
By making other mobs viable, like Warbots dropping more techs, Decayed Horrors/Brutes more common, and having most mobs 80/80 and higher drop techs.
Also, sorting out which mobs are in certain zones(IE; Y reps randomly scattered across many zones, that used to be good hunting spots)...
This would allow people to spread out more across more zones

Another is, the sympathy rules for zones, this seems to have changed from what I remember.
I haven't payed alot of attention to it, but it seems that all zones in the wasteland have battlefield style rules, where you can kill friendlies/allies with little or no penalty, kind of like the way OP zones were...

I would even go as far as saying that we should go back to the NC 1 staring locations and return faction guards to outside their HQ's, and enable people to level up in their faction/alliance/city areas till around **/30(IE; FA leveling in the tech cores), but that would be even more off topic and the subject of another thread....

TL,DR version:

Fix it so people have more places to level, so they can spread out more and be somewhat safe..

William Antrim
03-12-12, 19:45
Just give people a REASON to take out the le and they will. If the reward is there to go along with the cost of giving up all of that safety you will find it happens in droves.

Currently there is not that sort of reward for the bulletproof play-style the LE offers.

Chuck Norris
03-12-12, 19:47
Currently there is not that sort of reward for the bulletproof play-style the LE offers.

Guess it depends on how much you like being in a clan with your mates?

William Antrim
03-12-12, 20:14
Ventrilo resolves just that issue thanks. I don't need to be in the clan. We use the buddy list and actual real talking... I dunno. Somehow it just seems to work out ok...

kane
03-12-12, 22:51
I think the biggest issue is how many people gank lower levels. I mean I think if pvpers could kill something their own level then there would not be much of an issue. But most them will kill anything that can't put up a fair fight. That being almost all TG/BD/TS :P

But serious maybe looking into ways to prevent player griefing as much might be something to look into?

Mr. Kassad
03-12-12, 22:58
The punishment for killing Friendly Faction members should be way harsher and less easy reversible. So the whole SL system needs a revamp.

It's really irritating that I get attacked by allied faction runners more often than by enemy faction runners. O_o

kane
03-12-12, 23:02
The punishment for killing Friendly Faction members should be way harsher and less easy reversible. So the whole SL system needs a revamp.

It's really irritating that I get attacked by allied faction runners more often than by enemy faction runners. O_o

How bad is it now? I just heard someone freaking out they lost 50 SL for killing a neutral.

William Antrim
03-12-12, 23:21
How bad is it now? I just heard someone freaking out they lost 50 SL for killing a neutral.

More like 5. That sounds like a MASSIVE exaggeration to me.

Mr. Kassad
03-12-12, 23:22
Depends on the sector but meh... shit happens.

50 SL? If you got a recycle/research toon you get those back pretty quick. I don't have one but those guys do. Trust me ;)

but really: I prefer hanging out with enemy faction runners nowadays because they are nicer to me than my allies. And I'm pretty sure I didn't piss anyone off so far. So I rule out the possibility that this is some kind of revenge-plot against me. :angel:

Chuck Norris
04-12-12, 02:14
How bad is it now? I just heard someone freaking out they lost 50 SL for killing a neutral.

Yet another reason to leave your LE in so you can AoE in a team without worrying about killing team-mates and loosing sym/SL.

They should definitely leave LE's alone it helps, co-mingle... this game needs to be more noob friendly not less

Doc Holliday
04-12-12, 02:47
Yet another reason to leave your LE in so you can AoE in a team without worrying about killing team-mates and loosing sym/SL.

They should definitely leave LE's alone it helps, co-mingle... this game needs to be more noob friendly not less

if your in a team with someone it doesnt matter if you aoe and kill them you wont lose sl. If they are not teamed but simply present in the cave thats when u take a hit on sl/symp.

Forget My Name
04-12-12, 02:56
As the game stands, I wouldn't remove my LE is I was a pistol user or Melee user no matter what. Playing in teams isn't fun as friendly fire would frag you dead.

That, and accidentally killing other runners while leveling hurts you, especially if they run in front of you to grief your leveling experience hoping you kill them by mistake.

In the end, if you are tradeskilling or leveling, there is ZERO reason to remove your LE chip, and I don't see why you all are so hell bent on getting a 0/6 to remove his LE chip.

What do you possibly gain? Oh yeah, you can stroke your tiny epeen while mouth farting on teamspeak as you sweep plaza sewers and kill defenseless runners trying to catch up to someone who has been playing for weeks/months.

Why give the user a bonus for removing their LE? I don't understand this. You aren't trying to help anyone here. This is a pretty see through attempt at just ganking nubs in plaza 2.

Removing your LE chip already comes with benefits.

Oh yeah, and I forgot...

"Oh... Another Neocron is PvP thread (this time disguised) .... Only if we've done this before....

Neptune.

No."

Chuck Norris
04-12-12, 04:00
As the game stands, I wouldn't remove my LE is I was a pistol user or Melee user no matter what. Playing in teams isn't fun as friendly fire would frag you dead.

That, and accidentally killing other runners while leveling hurts you, especially if they run in front of you to grief your leveling experience hoping you kill them by mistake.

In the end, if you are tradeskilling or leveling, there is ZERO reason to remove your LE chip, and I don't see why you all are so hell bent on getting a 0/6 to remove his LE chip.

What do you possibly gain? Oh yeah, you can stroke your tiny epeen while mouth farting on teamspeak as you sweep plaza sewers and kill defenseless runners trying to catch up to someone who has been playing for weeks/months.

Why give the user a bonus for removing their LE? I don't understand this. You aren't trying to help anyone here. This is a pretty see through attempt at just ganking nubs in plaza 2.

Removing your LE chip already comes with benefits.

Oh yeah, and I forgot...

"Oh... Another Neocron is PvP thread (this time disguised) .... Only if we've done this before....

Neptune.

No."
You get it all to well my friend

Paint huffing chav's just dont seems to get it ;D

Torg
04-12-12, 10:20
How bad is it now? I just heard someone freaking out they lost 50 SL for killing a neutral.yeah, that 'inspector pinky' guy. solution: just dont kill newbs. watch whom youre firing at. or go play a dedicated fps.
really, there is no problem with neocron, there's just a problem with selfish people.

baracoder
04-12-12, 11:50
Hey, I am new to Neocron (again, played a bit ages ago). And I want to share my experience.

I removed my LE during the two r175 testing days.

Most of players without LE have caped or at least high level chars so I have no chance against them with my mid-level character. Dieing and loosing items is expensive and annoying. And I was attacked by random players all the time.
By the end of the testing phase I had lost all my equipment and was broke.

I haven't tried to join a clan thou.

kane
04-12-12, 12:06
Hey, I am new to Neocron (again, played a bit ages ago). And I want to share my experience.

I removed my LE during the two r175 testing days.

Most of players without LE have caped or at least high level chars so I have no chance against them with my mid-level character. Dieing and loosing items is expensive and annoying. And I was attacked by random players all the time.
By the end of the testing phase I had lost all my equipment and was broke.

I haven't tried to join a clan thou.
See if we had no LE's it would prove that our players are assholes and would kill the population not for only new but old players. Suggestion: Ban all the adults who were abused as a kid :P

William Antrim
04-12-12, 12:13
I wonder if some of the holier than thou attitudes that are rampant on the forum would be quite so fiery if the players in game didnt have their LE's in?

Deus Ex Machina
04-12-12, 12:40
What do you possibly gain? Oh yeah, you can stroke your tiny epeen while mouth farting on teamspeak as you sweep plaza sewers and kill defenseless runners trying to catch up to someone who has been playing for weeks/months.

Why give the user a bonus for removing their LE? I don't understand this. You aren't trying to help anyone here. This is a pretty see through attempt at just ganking nubs in plaza 2.

Removing your LE chip already comes with benefits.

Oh yeah, and I forgot...

"Oh... Another Neocron is PvP thread (this time disguised) .... Only if we've done this before....

Neptune.

No."Stop insulting me.
I do not gank low chars other than by accident. And when it happened in my team we always had the decency to pull those small ones up again (in a pepper park fight for example you are not always close enough to see which CR someone has)

I am also for it that All of Via Rosso and Plaza are quite safe - more than now, just not safe zones - well protected by NPCs (that work) - Low Risk but not No Risk

And if you would really think about the arguments I made you would see that at the moment removing LE comes with punishment, not with reward (that one slot in the brain isn't enough to counter the rest.). Also you would see that i don't want to punish LE Users in the ground or force anyone to remove it.

So stop making assumptions based on hot air. Think first!

William Antrim
04-12-12, 13:05
Stop insulting me.
I do not gank low chars other than by accident. And when it happened in my team we always had the decency to pull those small ones up again (in a pepper park fight for example you are not always close enough to see which CR someone has)

I am also for it that All of Via Rosso and Plaza are quite safe - more than now, just not safe zones - well protected by NPCs (that work) - Low Risk but not No Risk

And if you would really think about the arguments I made you would see that at the moment removing LE comes with punishment, not with reward (that one slot in the brain isn't enough to counter the rest.). Also you would see that i don't want to punish LE Users in the ground or force anyone to remove it.

So stop making assumptions based on hot air. Think first!


This is the sort of discussion I was hoping for.

Totally agree.

If people get given the choice (thats what this is all about) then they can keep their le in and be safe and sound while doing all the pve and caving they want to. The rest of us who want to take the risk of being "griefed/ganked" can do so with a slightly higher reward for taking that risk.

William Antrim
04-12-12, 13:17
p.s everyone can do recycle missions. It is a wellknown fact that you can just buy the chems and hand them in a profit.

kane
04-12-12, 13:43
p.s everyone can do recycle missions. It is a wellknown fact that you can just buy the chems and hand them in a profit.
Never done one myself but now I'm more interested :P Could you explain more for someone who has never done any other mission then kill ones?

Mokoi
04-12-12, 14:09
The LEs primary function is the PvP switch.
When you talk about ways of luring more low level players into taking it out, consider what it means: Make low level players opt in to PvP.

You can talk about XP and PvE malus all day (or call it non-LE bonus - same thing), but the question I see unanswered is this: What can we do about PvP, so more low- or mid-level players feel compelled to participate in it?
As long as the role of low-/mid-level chars in PvP is reduced to fragmeat, I dont see any good in forcing or pushing them into PvP.

That said, the open world PvP is such a big part of what constitutes Neocron, that I think it would be very beneficial to not limit it to the endgame.

Disclaimer: the above is my personal opinion only, not to be confused with an official stance on the matter.

William Antrim
04-12-12, 14:25
Player run events for low and mid level nf tournaments. Group your opponents by class and rank. Within ten ranks for example. Overall rank this is. That's what I would do.

Balance weapons so that store bought are powerful enough to provide a chance of fighting against rares and punish the hell out of ganking tonnes of levels below you but reward for killing someone around your level or higher. When I say higher I mean within a level range if your own. I don't wanna see 0/2 putting a cap in the ass of a 60 runner just cos he is a clan mate. The problem of sympathy mules of old would need to be carefully managed to stop exploits too. However all of these suggestions would need to be heavily tested to remove any kind of exploitable actions.

kane
04-12-12, 14:30
Player run events for low and mid level nf tournaments. Group your opponents by class and rank. Within ten ranks for example. Overall rank this is. That's what I would do.

Balance weapons so that store bought are powerful enough to provide a chance of fighting against rares and punish the hell out of ganking tonnes of levels below you but reward for killing someone around your level or higher. When I say higher I mean within a level range if your own. I don't wanna see 0/2 putting a cap in the ass of a 60 runner just cos he is a clan mate. The problem of sympathy mules of old would need to be carefully managed to stop exploits too. However all of these suggestions would need to be heavily tested to remove any kind of exploitable actions.
TBH they are logged. The Devs should give access to this information to a few trusted long time players to go through them. Then they submit them into the GM's who are bust and probbly did not want to do the grunt work to begin with. They will approve and perm ban both accounts and as well as check logs for IP's and take out any other accounts linked with no questions period.

It's a bit harsh but its how I run my Minecraft server and you have to pay a small fee to actually get on. Where most these guys can just make new accounts and from there we usually look the other way unless they once again break the rules.

Problem is I doubt the devs are going to want to allow witch hunts but for exploits like that it should happen. Everyone knows sympathy mules are illegal and if they don't then its a good reason we don't waste time educating them :P

Torg
04-12-12, 14:39
The problem here is, there's (at least) 2 different groups of players. one group enjoys PvP very much, and wants more action, while the other group enjoys PvP far less, and wants to play mor or less peacefully. so group one demands pushing more people into the action area, while group two refuses any such attempt.
lets make it clear: PvP-players want more PvP, but forcing others into this playstyle doesnt succeed (Neptune...).

So what can we do to encourage more PvP-action? I believe Mokoi has a very good point in this discussion: balancing.

Right now PvP is limited to capped chars with top-end gear. A midrange char wouldnt stand a chance against a skill-maxed woc-kitted fighter. So one thing we could do to bring in more players into PvP would be reducing the boni for TC, WOC and higher TL - a better weapon would still do more damage than one of lower TL, just the difference wouldnt be as big as today. of course nobody wants to loose an advantage, but wouldnt you trade a part of this advantage for a more NC1-style, mixed PvP-situation? NC1 did have a more open PvP-situation with more people taking place in fights, but no woc-gear, no MC5 chips nearly no PAs.

my proposal:
Remove WOC and rare-boni, cut TC-bonus in half (keep some to balance skillpoints in TC vs AGL), remove combat-boni in PAs (make them purely defensive), weaken TL damage progression.
And move city-fighting back to pepper park by safezoning all of plaza, via rosso, TH; bring NPC traders to outzone station and TH to strengthen factions.

William Antrim
04-12-12, 14:41
I think a good solution would be to confer no bonus for a kill on a player with synaptic impairment too perhaps. You can still kill them but you don't get anything for it. This would stop the symp whoring and provide a solid solution to the new measures I suggested.



Edit: I think torg makes some good points too. Removing the offensive bonuses from woc is a great shout. If you're gonna do that tho I think you need to give noobs pa earlier on the proviso they don't their le in. This gives them better defence and encourages them to fight back. I like it. Maybe they could get some pa at 50 or 60 level of main skill rather than 80 odd as it is now. This would be good. Fights would last longer and more people might join in.

Izeo
04-12-12, 14:54
I don't know. Advancing your gear is a lot of fun in PvE. Having a new weapon built and then killing the mobs you have been hunting much faster than before is really satisfying.

This may sound ridiculous, but maybe a possibility is to handle PvP damage completely different than PvE damage. I'm not fully for this idea, but imagine if:
- All weapons in PvE work exactly the same and do the same damage as now.
- However, in PvP, the lowest 'version' of a weapon is exactly 40% as good as the highest 'version' of that same weapon type (including rares).

Example:
Lazar rifle is the lowest 'version' Street Model rifle.
Desperado is the highest 'version' Street Model rifle.

Lazar rifle deals 40 damage a hit to a player.
Desperado deals 100 damage a hit to a player.
(the important part is the ratio - 40% min, 100% max)

The min/max damage window would then be much, much, much tighter. I would probably PvP like crazy if the game worked this way, since I'd only have to hit my enemy a handful more times than they hit me, to compete, using a weapon that is worse than theirs.

(Player armor/resists would also have to work exactly the same as it does now in PvE, but have a similar tightened window for PvP.)

It's a completely ridiculous idea, I know, and I know for a fact this will not happen. But it's kind of fun to imagine, as I really do think this would be a much more fair and enjoyable system.

Netphreak
04-12-12, 16:00
I don't know. Advancing your gear is a lot of fun in PvE. Having a new weapon built and then killing the mobs you have been hunting much faster than before is really satisfying.

This may sound ridiculous, but maybe a possibility is to handle PvP damage completely different than PvE damage. I'm not fully for this idea, but imagine if:
- All weapons in PvE work exactly the same and do the same damage as now.
- However, in PvP, the lowest 'version' of a weapon is exactly 40% as good as the highest 'version' of that same weapon type (including rares).

Example:
Lazar rifle is the lowest 'version' Street Model rifle.
Desperado is the highest 'version' Street Model rifle.

Lazar rifle deals 40 damage a hit to a player.
Desperado deals 100 damage a hit to a player.
(the important part is the ratio - 40% min, 100% max)

The min/max damage window would then be much, much, much tighter. I would probably PvP like crazy if the game worked this way, since I'd only have to hit my enemy a handful more times than they hit me, to compete, using a weapon that is worse than theirs.

(Player armor/resists would also have to work exactly the same as it does now in PvE, but have a similar tightened window for PvP.)

It's a completely ridiculous idea, I know, and I know for a fact this will not happen. But it's kind of fun to imagine, as I really do think this would be a much more fair and enjoyable system.

It always works that way as far as I remember. Players take 1/3 of the damage you will do to a mob, before armor and resists.

There appears to be a concensis on a couple of issues that need to be fixed which will also impact this topic.
First being mobs, their damage, drops, location are all over the place.
Everyone should stand a chance to take on a mob of comparable level not die in 2/3 hits.
More types of mobs need to be able to drop techs to spread the players out across a largely unused game world.

Next is the weapon damage balancing issue that needs to be resolved to even out the playing field somewhat to give everyone 'a chance' at being competitive, thus promoting more pvp and making people less likely to keep LE in until WoC.

Drachenpaladin
04-12-12, 16:16
Another thing that might need a look into is the weapon handling at low levels... Imagine what a pistol duell in Aggicellar would look like: two Chars crouching around each other in circles trying to get their reticles closed some day... :rolleyes:

Also to chime in with Mokoi. What is an incentive to PvP as lowbie? Well there is non, not atm and i don't see any possible at all. Other then the small joy about having downed some other poor bastard there is not much reward in PvP. OP-fights are a high and end game content, so you can only brawl around leveling grounds, which is counter productive, or do some baseless fights in the PP or P2 - which is again more like a spare time activity for the guys with the capped chars to bridge the time till the next OPfight. Sparing if you want.

So other then lowbie PvP tournaments i don't see any real incentive. There is just no real reward in it at low level, just costs.

Those who are hellbent on PvP just grind their way up with all sorts of speed level methods.

Deus Ex Machina
04-12-12, 16:43
You can talk about XP and PvE malus all day (or call it non-LE bonus - same thing)Sorry, but if its a bonus to one side or a malus to the other might for some look the same, but ultimate its absolutly not the same. People react very differently when its a situation worder like a bonus than when its a situation worder as a malus, even if its the same end result. There are many studies in psychology that support that - so big difference, not same thing.
Thats why people react different when something is taken from them (XP for example) than when others get something (XP for example).


...but the question I see unanswered is this: What can we do about PvP, so more low- or mid-level players feel compelled to participate in it?
As long as the role of low-/mid-level chars in PvP is reduced to fragmeat, I dont see any good in forcing or pushing them into PvP.Not force or push - invite - nobody has to.
But I can see what you mean. One thing that came to my mind was another type of LE, as was brought up by someone else somewhere. The function: Only those with a Rating around yours can fight you - and you only them.
Then there might be e.g. three types of LE:
Original LE
Rating +/- 5 LE
Rating +/- 10 LE

Of course that might be a bit hard to code, but at least one could be sure not to be ganked by all those capped people around, and still participate.
But to be honest what I aim at is not getting LEd Player into PvP, but into the world.
I'll be honest - if I am somewhere and see people in local i check the color. If they are LEd - I ignore them most of the time. sometimes I look what they are doing, but most of the time... I have absolutly no reason to aknowledge their existance. They cannot interact with me. Apart from Tradeskillers that is.
I am not sure thats all my reasons, but thats what comes to my mind. A world filled up with LE players feels empty to me.

One example: A few days ago i ran through Plaza 4. Suddenly a non LE name pops up. So I go into search mode, walk cautiously, and then find the player, standing around motionless. Hes from my faction. So I can move on without troubles (I guess)
Some time later I run back again. He is still standing on the same spot. I guess hes afk or something (he wasn't killed by the way with all that standing on the main road through the sector). So a player without LE managed to give me a gaming experience - while I would have just ignored him and ran on if he would have been LEd - For me, thats one main difference.

Mr. Kassad
04-12-12, 17:15
First of all: A 1on1 PvP fight between two capped Runners without a PPU nearby takes how much time? 30 seconds in average? That's pretty damn short if you ask me. Guess how long a mid-level runner will last.

Weapons do a shitload of damage nowadays and resists are almost negligible. There is a rifle (sry forgot the name) that kills a tank in 4 shots flat. With a super duper resist setup it kills you in 5. No wonder people prefer to put those skillpoints in ATL even if they don't clip around.
* Especiall WOC-Weapons need to be nerfed a lot while the rest gets nerfed a bit.
* The impact of resistance on damage reduction needs to be tweaked


Second: We need adequate punishment for being a criminal and shooting friendlies. The SL loss it too damn unimportant and can be replenished way too easy. A complete overhaul of this system needs to be done. This might or might not include some of those suggestions made above about discouraging big chars to kill low-lvl-runners. The exact system is a whole discussion on it's own.

Third: (This is connected to Nr.2) NPC guards need to be a threat again. Brutal freeze and high damage always worked well in the past. Those with negative SL need to feel the consequences of their actions. It's cool to be the bad guy but it's a damn hard life as well. (At least it should be)

Mokoi
04-12-12, 17:41
Sorry, but if its a bonus to one side or a malus to the other might for some look the same, but ultimate its absolutly not the same. People react very differently when its a situation worder like a bonus than when its a situation worder as a malus, even if its the same end result. There are many studies in psychology that support that - so big difference, not same thing.
Thats why people react different when something is taken from them (XP for example) than when others get something (XP for example).

This is true when it comes to selling (bad) news to people, you will indeed increase acceptance. In terms of game mechanics and balance it makes little difference (math does not care for emotions).
Not to deviate from the subject by a mile - but consider an economy where you dont give a monetary malus to the 30% in group A (because that would be bad), but you give a bonus to the other 70% in group B (because thats more acceptable). You may say you have not taken away anything from group A, but in the end of the day, the result for group A will still be a very real reduction in consumption power as the global balance shifts. You simply cannot look at each group as though they'd live in a bubble of their own. Thats why to me, it makes no difference if you call it a malus or a bonus - so long players from either group can interact in a single environment, the effect on game mechanics and balancing is identical.

That said, I am curious to see what else you folks have to suggest in terms of making PvP viable again for a broader audience (without dumbing it down of course).
Some of the above suggestions, I think, are heading in a healthy direction.

Chuck Norris
04-12-12, 18:10
This is true when it comes to selling (bad) news to people, you will indeed increase acceptance. In terms of game mechanics and balance it makes little difference (math does not care for emotions).
Not to deviate from the subject by a mile - but consider an economy where you dont give a monetary malus to the 30% in group A (because that would be bad), but you give a bonus to the other 70% in group B (because thats more acceptable). You may say you have not taken away anything from group A, but in the end of the day, the result for group A will still be a very real reduction in consumption power as the global balance shifts. You simply cannot look at each group as though they'd live in a bubble of their own. Thats why to me, it makes no difference if you call it a malus or a bonus - so long players from either group can interact in a single environment, the effect on game mechanics and balancing is identical.

That said, I am curious to see what else you folks have to suggest in terms of making PvP viable again for a broader audience (without dumbing it down of course).
Some of the above suggestions, I think, are heading in a healthy direction.

Increase effectiveness of armor and resists, someone weapons burn through them immediately.

Doc Holliday
04-12-12, 18:17
Well torg does make some great points here (never thought i would be writing that :P just kidding bro) and yeah the gap between non-rare/rare/woc needs to be shortened. this would serve to bring more fights for sure. skill becomes much more important and could see that balance of power so to speak shifted in a different direction.

Not sure about the nerfing pa thing but i would love to see more classes not so heavily reliant on it just to use a gun. the Low tech pe of old was a classic. he didnt need pa to just use his pe or termi. increasing weapon damage of the poorer weapons would bring more mix to the classes but thats for the balancing project. Yes of course this promotes ganking of lower runners but once that LE is out runners can join clans anyway and then have the clan back them up. Like they used to. It could certainly mean a lot more to clans having to protect their runners and encouraging this is a good thing.

I strongly support the idea of the bonus being provided to a non le runner as you would find more runners removing the LE and engaging in pvp as mentioned. it may not always be against a runner of their level but as mentioned above its a choice. they are not forced to do it.

Everyone loves free con xp too ;)

Netphreak
04-12-12, 19:14
I think it's going to be an awful lot of work, but ideally weapon damage probably needs to be balanced at the time when they balance mobs too. As weapon damage affects both the PvP and PvE aspects of the game.

William Antrim
04-12-12, 19:35
IF you had a way for low level runners to fight with other low level runners around their level (or any level) with rewards but WITHOUT abusive mechanics then you would have a great game.

I think that if you gave low level runners cash to kill each other, enemies this is, normal rules apply for killing neutrals then you'd have a good incentive to kill others.

However developing this point further you could possibly add an XP bonus to killing ones enemies. Not a huge one and only in your main skill dependent on the level of the person/difference to yours perhaps.

This bonus however would not be paid if the level differences were too high/too low.
It would not be paid if the person had SI either.
It would not be paid to neutral or friendly factions.

The only 2 issues I can see with this is

A) All factions need the same amount of enemies. Black Dragon has lots currently and DRE has hardly any. This would avoid polarisation to certain factions.

B) open world PVP (Ganking to some people) needs to be HEAVILY penalised for killing people of much lower rank. Like TONNES higher than now in levelling zones/caves.

Battlefield sectors would need MORE pve in them to encourage runners to go there and level and also have the possibility of fighting in them.

Caves would probably need to be addressed - SL losses etc might be better as wasteland sectors so you can get the rewards and the pitfalls too.


However Net is right and Torg too. The weapons need to be more balanced first then it gives people a chance to fight back. Also you might want to think about extending the amount of time it takes to kill people. I know WOW uses instances to control levelling among groups within a range but obviously NC does not have those resources so working with what there is this might be the best way to do it.

I am all for making fights last longer. I know lots of people like to wait till you have hardly any health before they kill you but that is just a pitfall of not having the LE i guess.

Drachenpaladin
04-12-12, 19:38
IF you had a way for low level runners to fight with other low level runners around their level (or any level) with rewards but WITHOUT abusive mechanics then you would have a great game.

And here we already have the fatal pathogen that undermines the whole concept. There is no un-exploitable reward system.

William Antrim
04-12-12, 19:40
And here we already have the fatal pathogen that undermines the whole concept. There is no un-exploitable reward system.

Epic fail.

Of course there is. Wow manages it. NC can too.

Drachenpaladin
04-12-12, 19:41
Wow manages it. NC can too.

Apples and oranges?

Chuck Norris
04-12-12, 19:41
Epic fail.

Of course there is. Wow manages it. NC can too.

Dude did you really just compare NC to wow lol; talk about epic fails

Netphreak
04-12-12, 20:31
IF you had a way for low level runners to fight with other low level runners around their level (or any level) with rewards but WITHOUT abusive mechanics then you would have a great game.

I think that if you gave low level runners cash to kill each other, enemies this is, normal rules apply for killing neutrals then you'd have a good incentive to kill others.

However developing this point further you could possibly add an XP bonus to killing ones enemies. Not a huge one and only in your main skill dependent on the level of the person/difference to yours perhaps.

This bonus however would not be paid if the level differences were too high/too low.
It would not be paid if the person had SI either.
It would not be paid to neutral or friendly factions.

The only 2 issues I can see with this is

A) All factions need the same amount of enemies. Black Dragon has lots currently and DRE has hardly any. This would avoid polarisation to certain factions.

B) open world PVP (Ganking to some people) needs to be HEAVILY penalised for killing people of much lower rank. Like TONNES higher than now in levelling zones/caves.

Battlefield sectors would need MORE pve in them to encourage runners to go there and level and also have the possibility of fighting in them.

Caves would probably need to be addressed - SL losses etc might be better as wasteland sectors so you can get the rewards and the pitfalls too.


However Net is right and Torg too. The weapons need to be more balanced first then it gives people a chance to fight back. Also you might want to think about extending the amount of time it takes to kill people. I know WOW uses instances to control levelling among groups within a range but obviously NC does not have those resources so working with what there is this might be the best way to do it.

I am all for making fights last longer. I know lots of people like to wait till you have hardly any health before they kill you but that is just a pitfall of not having the LE i guess.

My thoughts about weapon damage would be mainly to lower the top end damage and then balance the rest around that.
Mob damage should also be lowered, as it's far far too high. Keep their health the same or increase it.

This would have 2 effects, make PvP last longer no more tanks with high resists dying in 5-6 shots etc. (PPU's shields and heals would need looked at and adjusted accordingly)
PvE should become a challenge were you don't just die in a few hits from mobs if you don't have a ppu strapped to your ass, but also you can't just steamroll through mobs either.

I'm sure there is more issues associated with my thinking but it's my rough suggestion for some kind of solution at the moment.

William Antrim
04-12-12, 20:35
He said it couldnt be done. I said it could and gave an example. No I never compared NC to WOW. I merely stated a fact with some logical thought to back it up. Now can you do the same?

Faid
04-12-12, 20:51
IF you had a way for low level runners to fight with other low level runners around their level (or any level) with rewards but WITHOUT abusive mechanics then you would have a great game.

I think that if you gave low level runners cash to kill each other, enemies this is, normal rules apply for killing neutrals then you'd have a good incentive to kill others.

However developing this point further you could possibly add an XP bonus to killing ones enemies. Not a huge one and only in your main skill dependent on the level of the person/difference to yours perhaps.

This bonus however would not be paid if the level differences were too high/too low.
It would not be paid if the person had SI either.
It would not be paid to neutral or friendly factions.

The only 2 issues I can see with this is

A) All factions need the same amount of enemies. Black Dragon has lots currently and DRE has hardly any. This would avoid polarisation to certain factions.

B) open world PVP (Ganking to some people) needs to be HEAVILY penalised for killing people of much lower rank. Like TONNES higher than now in levelling zones/caves.

Battlefield sectors would need MORE pve in them to encourage runners to go there and level and also have the possibility of fighting in them.

Caves would probably need to be addressed - SL losses etc might be better as wasteland sectors so you can get the rewards and the pitfalls too.


However Net is right and Torg too. The weapons need to be more balanced first then it gives people a chance to fight back. Also you might want to think about extending the amount of time it takes to kill people. I know WOW uses instances to control levelling among groups within a range but obviously NC does not have those resources so working with what there is this might be the best way to do it.

I am all for making fights last longer. I know lots of people like to wait till you have hardly any health before they kill you but that is just a pitfall of not having the LE i guess.

If this were the case I would create a couple low level chars at different levels. I would max out the available stats for pvp, I would use slot enhancers to create 5 slot weapons and I would ultimate them. I would gear armor specifically for pvp concurrent with that particular level. I would then keep a dedicated PPU near me and head into all leveling area's and proceed to kill everyone i find leveling there. It would be fun because I have a distinct advantage in weapons, armor, PPU buffs, holy shields, holy heals, and PVP setup. All those poor people trying to level would have to enjoy the fun of being killed over and over and over again while trying to level.

If this idea can occur to me, someone who does not take pleasure in pointlessly killing other runners, then you can be damn sure the people who actually like griefing other people will think of this.

The LE system as it stands right now is fine in my opinion. The potential for abuse is too large to go changing it now.

William Antrim
04-12-12, 20:59
Due to the open world levelling of the game yes. I never said the idea was perfect but its a whole huge long way away from whining and bitching. Its a good way of starting some discussion though.

Kame
04-12-12, 22:06
Try reducing the skill REQ so having 100 skill in combat class doesnt equal a super gimped usage and damage.

Right now we need 180+ to have a somewhat good feeling, normal freq. on a rare weapon. A lot of people spec 200+ skill.

Making it so the gap between 100 and 200 isnt 50%, but rather 25%, but those are speculative figures.

Mr. Kassad
04-12-12, 23:50
@William Antrim:

I hate to just say "does not work" without providing an alternative but it's just that way right now.
No matter what reward you give for killing others (may it be SL/XP/Money/Sympathy/etc) can and will be heavily exploited in Neocron.

Why?

Even though its against the rules, lots of players have multiple accounts, because this rule gets not (can not be?) enforced.
They just do a double log in with one of their many twinks in other factions and kill them repeatedly.

And even if you only have one account: Titan is a 4 Slot-Server. If you have a friend with only one enemy faction runner amongst his four chars, you can play the same exploiting-game like described above.


THE FOLLOWING INFORMATION MIGHT BE OUTDATED:
And now (even though I might get stoned to death for it) I explain why this works better (but not perfectly) in WoW:
You can only join one team per server. So if your first char on Server X is Alliance, you cannot create a Horde char on that particular server. Neocron would have to implement something like this aswell.

But that said: This does not fix the multi-acc problem at all, even if NC would cost money. I knew several guys on Mars that hat 2-4 Accounts each and paid for it all by themselves.

William Antrim
05-12-12, 00:22
Youre right Mr Kassad. I thought long and hard about the issue before posting. I am still of the belief that there is a way for all of this to work however. My glass is half full, it is not half dead - stood at the gr with 50% SI as some peoples is.

Doc Holliday
05-12-12, 04:41
Dude did you really just compare NC to wow lol; talk about epic fails

LOL!!!! In order to show an example of how a system can be dealt with and a problem handled, another mmo is stated as the example and all you're tiny little brain can do is look at it literally and go omg wtf epic fail rather than trying to identify the relevance of the statement. comedy.

Engage brain. Then engage fingers.

Kame
06-12-12, 03:47
I don't think big changes are the way to go. Especially not in a game where so many aspects besides PVP itself comes into play, and especially not at the game-rules level. People tend to hate that, and it would be a shame to see them leave. This is why I say NO to any other implementation of items regarding the game LE rules.

Please do not add items to fix game-rules this is clearly not the way to go.


The change I propose is easy to implement and kinda subtle, but it has big impacts nonetheless.

Making the dungeons/caves Warzone means :

- no SL loss/gain
- no FS loss/gain
- no dropbelts

This would have impacts on many aspects of the leveling part of the game. For one, leveling players would perhaps feel more inclined towards taking the LE out, since they would not fear losing items while leveling. And lets not forget that leveling players are the ones that populates leveling-areas, not end-game PVPrs.

It also would mean that you won't tend to accept random strangers team invite (by fear of mistakingly damaging them and their death then leading to your soullight being penalized) in such place, and would certainly not lead to your item getting stolen in you dropbelt.

Also I always found it weird that you get reward (dropbelt) for killing runners in dungeons/caves... you should get a reward for killing a runner in the wastes, the city, in fact everywhere but Safezones, Warzones (OP) and Dungeons/Caves.

It might also have an impact on gankers since there is no more belts to hack, or it might not (personnally I think it would not).

Would even provide new places for fighting, far from zonelines. I can already see clan wars for certain spots, like Regent.


I don't see too many maluses, apart from people claiming it will promote ganking in dungeons/caves, since that already happens quite often. I don't think there's a need to punish players from killing runners in the dungeons/caves.

Chuck Norris
06-12-12, 04:10
I don't think big changes are the way to go. Especially not in a game where so many aspects besides PVP itself comes into play, and especially not at the game-rules level. People tend to hate that, and it would be a shame to see them leave. This is why I say NO to any other implementation of items regarding the game LE rules.

Please do not add items to fix game-rules this is clearly not the way to go.


The change I propose is easy to implement and kinda subtle, but it has big impacts nonetheless.

Making the dungeons/caves Warzone means :

- no SL loss/gain
- no FS loss/gain
- no dropbelts

This would have impacts on many aspects of the leveling part of the game. For one, leveling players would perhaps feel more inclined towards taking the LE out, since they would not fear losing items while leveling. And lets not forget that leveling players are the ones that populates leveling-areas, not end-game PVPrs.

It also would mean that you won't tend to accept random strangers team invite (by fear of mistakingly damaging them and their death then leading to your soullight being penalized) in such place, and would certainly not lead to your item getting stolen in you dropbelt.

Also I always found it weird that you get reward (dropbelt) for killing runners in dungeons/caves... you should get a reward for killing a runner in the wastes, the city, in fact everywhere but Safezones, Warzones (OP) and Dungeons/Caves.

It might also have an impact on gankers since there is no more belts to hack, or it might not (personnally I think it would not).

Would even provide new places for fighting, far from zonelines. I can already see clan wars for certain spots, like Regent.


I don't see too many maluses, apart from people claiming it will promote ganking in dungeons/caves, since that already happens quite often. I don't think there's a need to punish players from killing runners in the dungeons/caves.

Great ideas Kame; I likes!