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View Full Version : Neocron is a PVP Game. LE Chip is fine but needs to not work in certain areas.



kane
03-12-12, 04:48
I'm not even close to farming rares but almost all day long I hear about droners and LE players farming rares and how everyone can't get anything worth while. Well that is a major error. Neocron is a PVP Game if I recall. You PVP in the game its a risky game and yeah you get your ass handed to you a lot. This why you join a clan make friends and so on. But hell if you want to wear an LE fine. But note that you can still do a lot you just will not be able to do some of the end game stuff like farm rare parts..

So what do you guys think? So rather then the implant so called fall out in these areas instead for lore fun we build special law enforcement towers around the world in major cities. But once you go to far from these so called towers your chip stops working.

For the lore/storyline might be fun?

Anyways I like to hear what others think.

Torg
03-12-12, 06:46
so you want to force ppl into another playstyle? just because you assume "Neocron is for PvP only"? hm. not going to work, since NC is too much of an RPG, maybe not for you, but surely for others.

kane
03-12-12, 07:25
so you want to force ppl into another playstyle? just because you assume "Neocron is for PvP only"? hm. not going to work, since NC is too much of an RPG, maybe not for you, but surely for others.
I'm actually not a PVPer but The rare stuff is out of control. I mean mainly droners being cheat but overall if you want the best best tech in the game or lets say a good place to farm them the those areas should be PVP tbh...

Or start banning droners :P

hatmankh
03-12-12, 07:47
Droners can't cheat, 175 fixed the droning bugs. Droners don't even do the most damage anyway, the single target drones are pretty weak, anyone can outdamage them and claim the loot for themselves.

Forget My Name
03-12-12, 07:49
Oh... Another Neocron is PvP thread.... Only if we've done this before....

Neptune.

No.

Also....

Logic about droners is old, tired and as of the last patch, flat out wrong.

kane
03-12-12, 07:59
Oh... Another Neocron is PvP thread.... Only if we've done this before....

Neptune.

No.

Also....

Logic about droners is old, tired and as of the last patch, flat out wrong.

So you saying we should just keep exploiting then? I mean that is how you play Neocron right?

Forget My Name
03-12-12, 08:04
So you saying we should just keep exploiting then? I mean that is how you play Neocron right?

I said no such thing. Not even remotely. I don't know how to respond to you.

kane
03-12-12, 08:19
I said no such thing. Not even remotely. I don't know how to respond to you.

Well TBH, a lot of people are scared of changes. They are use to doing something and unfortunately like all humans the easy way of doing it. Why else would most people be using say Drones to farm?

And if or when that does get cleaned up there will be hell to pay. My problem is really that right now a lot of people are taking advantage of the situation. The way were going the econ already busted. I mean if the dev team really is focusing on a more legit game then we are already on the process of another wipe.

DER_julu
03-12-12, 10:09
i think forcing people to put their LE out is the wrong way to do it - personally, i'd rather see incentives to pop it early on instead of keeping it in than force a pvp-centric playstyle onto anyone; people leaving because they don't want to cope with pvp would just decimate the population, and i think we can all agree that this would be bad.

sadly, it's become a current trend to keep the LE in as long as possible, and i think part of the reason it has come to this was mindless noobganking; it's simply frustrating if you get shot over and over again, and it seems like most people don't want to put up with that anymore. and i agree, it sucks to have some LE'd runner steal your loot, but then, those asshats are a minority, and i wouldn't want to "punish" the larger part of the population for a handful of people's bad manners.

(and yes, before anyone cries "LE-carebear", i pop mine as soon as i get out of mc5 and just live with the frequent ganking... ^^)

Netphreak
03-12-12, 12:15
I'm gonna try to help shed some light on why there are so many droners and why they have their LE's in.

Why to people use drones to farm and why to they have LE's in...
If a drone dies, it's mearly a pain as you get some Synaptic Impairment, but on the whole it's relatively low risk*, but can be expensive.

*only if you can hide your meat sack somewhere the mobs can't find it. And much more importantly you have your LE in, as you will usually always get ganked while droning when you have your LE out.

If you die on the other hand you have to respawn at a GR (somewhere that's open), and possibly need to re-implant.

Another reason for all the droners is the lack of AoE weapons for spies. If you're specced pistol you have a MiniRocket Pistol, but on the whole pistols are weak atm and don't spec it, which leaves rifle. Therein lies a problem, there is no AoE rifle weapons, so you can't effectively grind in an caves etc compared to if you just specced into droning and used an AoE drone.

And final reason I can think that there are so many droners (which will obviously have their LE in to prevent them getting ganked), is because mob damage is all over the place. Mostly mobs will easily 2 or 3 hit a spy, who has the right resists, belt, armor and nanites/psi up. This needs fixed/balanced, so it's possible to fight them, especially in a cave or somewhere with minimal places to try and dodge their attacks, made harder in that you will need direct line of sight to attack them as a rifle user.
If you're a high level player against a high level mob you should have some kind of a chance to fight them straight up.

Jodo
03-12-12, 12:54
I say this without drama or overreaction. I would stop playing NC if this came into effect. The game would simply stop being fun for me.

Bruder Malmsdoo
03-12-12, 13:38
I understand the sentiments of Kane.

When I first played Neocron there were strong incentives to drop the LE:

1.) Minor XP-Gain
2.) The neccessity to kill other runners to progress in the Epic-Quest.

Most people dropped the LE as midlevel. That made the world more dangerous but exciting. I remember the thrill farming rareparts at the battledome. There was a midlevel spy who constantly raided us. Sometimes he had success, but often we killed him too - as unexperienced midlevels!.

The most important thing:
You had to make friends to protect each other, so the social experience was dense.

Because also peaceful runners had no LE, often 2 red runners didn't shoot at each other anyway. Then there was space for some kind of roleplay.

Today only the minority of the runners drop the LE. Those who do kill all red people that are in sight, low level runners included. Today dropping the LE means only to become ganked by nearly everly red player.

The conclusion:
in a bizzare way the dominace of the LE damaged the overall NC-culture and experience considerably, because it split the community socially and enforced an individualized playstile. Look at the empty ingame forums and channels: Today noone cares about polititics, because the neccessity and is gone and the impact of it is low.

Why Kanes proposal makes sense from a storyline-point-of-view, I dont think it can convince the majority of runners.

A more moderate approach is to increase the incentives to drop the LE.

Perhaps we can gather some ideas, discuss them and pick the best:

Ideas:
1. Change faction (or alliance) is only possible with no LE
2. Reintroduce slightly minor XP-Gain
3. When the pop has stabilized, reintroduce epic-kills. (I am not convinced of this)
4. FSM-access only without LE
5. Ressing, contructing and/or equipping with Rare-Weapons only without LE (certainly very controversial, feel free to rant), after rebalancing weapons
3. ... [your Ideas]

William Antrim
03-12-12, 14:04
Not mentioning names but currently there are people in nc who attack their own faction - let alone just red ganking. Whilst this stuff goes on there is no incentive to remove the le.

Deus Ex Machina
03-12-12, 14:06
Not mentioning names but currently there are people in nc who attack their own faction - let alone just red ganking. Whilst this stuff goes on there is no incentive to remove the le.
The "simple" solution would be: Make it hard to get your soullight back, then the drops of the aggressors will manage to balance that out very fast

Bruder Malmsdoo
03-12-12, 14:10
Yes and increase drop-rate ;)

kane
03-12-12, 14:18
Sorry Guys, I kind of mainly only wanted to start the debate. You guys been more active. My only point I guess is it seems fair that so many people can farm the best stuff in the game with 0 risks or at least near that. I feel that it be better to encourage taking your LE out. I my self will probably never engage in PVP. And yet I feel that if I can farm say MC5 rares day and night as a droner and no risk well jesus thats pretty fracked up hehe.

Netphreak
03-12-12, 14:27
I guess -10% Exp gain or something like it was back in NC1 might 'possibly' be the way to go.
However I fear that would hurt trade skillers a lot.

Greens attacking Greens in leveling areas is an issue, and is something that needs to be balanced, through soul light or something else.
Allowing them to only be able to walk about Pepper Park (faction guards protecting the PP zones maybe) but not the inner city zones or Copbots will KoS. (real, powerful copbots, strength of a Y trooper bot etc).

phunqe
03-12-12, 14:37
I think many, including myself, keep the LE in as long as possible while leveling as a result of the few practising retarded ganking.
When leveled up, it's usually another story.
There were once talks about making the quickbelt impossible to hack if the wearer had 100 SL or even make 100 SL runners not drop it in the first place. Is this a viable solution? I remember keeping 100 SL wasn't easy in the first place if you are PVPing, but if you are PvE only it would offer some "protection" while you are still subject to being killed (if you're being an asshat blocking spawns etc). Haven't reflected much on that however, so it might not be a good option.

kane
03-12-12, 14:39
I guess -10% Exp gain or something like it was back in NC1 might 'possibly' be the way to go.
However I fear that would hurt trade skillers a lot.

Greens attacking Greens in leveling areas is an issue, and is something that needs to be balanced, through soul light or something else.
Allowing them to only be able to walk about Pepper Park (faction guards protecting the PP zones maybe) but not the inner city zones or Copbots will KoS. (real, powerful copbots, strength of a Y trooper bot etc).

I don't even know wtf is going on in Neocron? Why the hell places like Plaza 2 allowing pvp... The whole plaza system was suppose to be weapon locked and protected. Also Why are there people who are red to our faction just chilling inside of Plaza 1? I hate to say it but they don't belong their even if their standing is high with us their faction is not. We are at war with them and yet their fucking chilling in our chairs....

I will admit there is some really crazy stuff going on not even PVP wise but lore wise that's just really strange.

Weapons lock should be the way to go through the plaza system anyways. Any enemy factions should be kill on sight no matter what their SL is at.

kane
03-12-12, 14:42
I think many, including myself, keep the LE in as long as possible while leveling as a result of the few practising retarded ganking.
When leveled up, it's usually another story.
There were once talks about making the quickbelt impossible to hack if the wearer had 100 SL or even make 100 SL runners not drop it in the first place. Is this a viable solution? I remember keeping 100 SL wasn't easy in the first place if you are PVPing, but if you are PvE only it would offer some "protection" while you are still subject to being killed (if you're being an asshat blocking spawns etc). Haven't reflected much on that however, so it might not be a good option.


I like how you think though I think some the pvpers would be pretty upset though. I think a lot of people like to grief pvp. If they are getting next to no rewards then they might actually stop pvping hehe. Not saying that it will not be harder for them to keep their SL higher but I could see them being upset by it more..

But maybe we need to offer pvpers more in this game? We have outposts right now. Maybe outposts need to offer something a bit more rewarding?

Maybe also some other kind of system even if its just stat based via a site or some kind of random points around the world that turns into say Free for all pvp and attracts pvpers and gives them a fun little reward. IDK I'm running out of ideas hehe.

phunqe
03-12-12, 14:47
Yeah I understand that even the griefers need their rewards as well (in any shape or form they might come in) in a fully functional sandbox.
When leveled up getting griefed is one thing, but while leveling it can really put you off, especially in NC where you have only those set places to go really to level properly.

EDIT: If you start limiting things in the wrong way you obviously stray farther away from the sandbox. I can understand the extreme difficulty in offering an "option" (e.g. the SL and quickbelts)as a solution to something.

kane
03-12-12, 14:51
Yeah I understand that even the griefers need their rewards as well.
When leveled up getting griefed is one thing, but while leveling it can really put you off, especially in NC where you have only those set places to go really to level properly.

Yeah, I really think cities should be balanced.. Entering a City like Neocron and being Anti City would be pretty much slitting your own throat. Then from there NPCD can see stealth and maybe better yet they can be stationed without moving like they stand and guard their location.

To many people been dragging them off like pets and breaking them lol

Izeo
03-12-12, 15:53
Not mentioning names but currently there are people in nc who attack their own faction - let alone just red ganking. Whilst this stuff goes on there is no incentive to remove the le.
I agree with William here.

Story time.. and this is mainly a response to the title of the this thread.

Back in NC1, on Pluto, I played an H-C tank. It was a one-slot server and I didn't have any other accounts, so no alts. My friend played a PE. Back then - we were 14-15 years old - we had the same view as some people now have about players who keep their LE in. If we ever saw someone who was level 30 or above, out in the wasteland, hunting Warbots, with their LE in, we sighed in disgust, "Awww whhaaat look at this LEVEL THIRTY with his LE in.. what a faaaag..!!"

Some years passed of me playing Neocron on and off. I left and came back, over the years, before NC2. My friend had stopped playing. As this time had passed, I had been ganked numerous times, sometimes by people who were hostile, sometimes neutral, and sometimes allied. I was never in a clan, so I was never "waging war" on anyone. In fact, since I was getting ganked by EVERYONE I had no one to be fucking angry at. I couldn't just be like, "Ah, fucking Black Dragons! Fuck them! I should kill the next BD I see!" No, I couldn't say that, because ANYONE would gank me, if they were just like that, mentally, as a player. One day, I swear, I was ganked by three different people, three different times. In the same day.

And I'd fucking had it. I went to MB, and killed the first red I saw. Guess how I felt? Good? In control? Yeah! I've been taking everyone's shit for so long, and now it's MY TURN! Right? Right?

No. I felt fucking horrible. It was some defenseless spy who was just trying to level by himself. He didn't even shoot me once. He just kept running away, looking back, running, looking back, running, dead.

So I'm a carebear amirite? I must just love everyone, hate violence, and watch "My Little Pony", tbh?

No man. I love PVP in _ SITUATIONS _ WHEN _ IT _ IS _ FAIR _, which to me, shows a lot more courage, honor, and skill than getting the jump on someone you know you will win against before the "fight" even starts. Counter-strike is fair. League of Legends is fair (everyone starts at level 1, at the same time). PlanetSide is fair. L4D versus is fair. Street Fighter is fair. Super Smash Bros is fair. I realize none of those are MMOs, but you must understand the unfairness of being a level /30 and being engaged by a player who:
1.) Does more damage than you
2.) Absorbs more damage than you
3.) Runs faster than you
4.) Is ready/equipped for PVP

So I've heard this one before: "Well it's a harsh, intense, unforgiving post-apocalyptic world out there. If you go out on your own unprepared and new, and get stomped by a wasteland-roaming clan of badass dudes on hovertechs, then that's just TOO BAD man!" Yeah, it is. And that's why there's the LE, for people who don't want that.

Kame
03-12-12, 16:09
I don't even know wtf is going on in Neocron? Why the hell places like Plaza 2 allowing pvp... The whole plaza system was suppose to be weapon locked and protected. Also Why are there people who are red to our faction just chilling inside of Plaza 1? I hate to say it but they don't belong their even if their standing is high with us their faction is not. We are at war with them and yet their fucking chilling in our chairs....

I will admit there is some really crazy stuff going on not even PVP wise but lore wise that's just really strange.

Weapons lock should be the way to go through the plaza system anyways. Any enemy factions should be kill on sight no matter what their SL is at.

Enough with this already. This is not a red vs blue game, and people simply need a trading/chilling safezone hub. Used to be TH, used to be MB, used to be ...

This seems to follow the current quick pvp zoneline, as it most likely always will.

As for hunting grounds, we simply need to be allowed to compete for the best spots. Having LEd runners monopolising a cave, for instance, is bad for the game. Certain high lv areas, like MC5, should be no LE only.

Forget My Name
03-12-12, 16:10
I am just going to copy paste this in every "Neocron is a PvP only game" thread I see.

We've had this discussion before, in 2002. Reakktor GAVE us servers with less safe zones and gave us a server with NO safe zones. How did it turn out? 90% OF THE PLAYER BASE LEFT EVERY. SINGLE. TIME. After a few weeks of play.

NEOCRON REQUIRES PLAYERS TO TRADESKILL AND LEVEL FOR PVP TO HAPPEN.

And the only way to do both of those "within a decent amount of time" is wearing your LE.

Once again, this has been done before on multiple servers, and every time all you hardcore PvPers just up and left to go play Planetside and WoW with the first few weeks.

Neocron will have safe zones (it should have more than it has now actually) and it will always have the LE chip so players can, you know, actually play the game.

Dribble Joy
03-12-12, 16:32
The "simple" solution would be: Make it hard to get your soullight back, then the drops of the aggressors will manage to balance that out very fast
The problem is that SL and symp essentially mean nothing aside from copbots. If GR fees, item prices and other aspects of them game gave a meaningful consequence to being a dick, then we might be able to look at the LE more.

That said I'm not in favour of forced removal or overly penalising people for using it.

Ghostface_Speak
03-12-12, 16:34
Certain high lv areas, like MC5, should be no LE only.
This is a very good idea,really.I've read Hoder saying something like "the MC5 could be the most fought for zone in the game" or something close to that.Make it non-LE only and baziing,you just made it happen

Chuck Norris
03-12-12, 19:20
there are a lot of problems in this game that need to addressed; this is not one of them... this is about grievers having a lack of of easy kills.... I mean common; "why arent there more low and mid lvls without LE'S" ..

There are already penalties for LE's no clans, nor 4th cpu/no three star combat rank, no cross teaming with pvpers and a few other things.. this is a moot discussion started by trolls looking for more victims

William Antrim
03-12-12, 19:41
I think some people in this thread are mixing PvPers with griefers. A griefer will come to a levelling spot and attempt to pk anyone not wearing an LE.

A Pvper will go to an op and hack it and wait for the defending clan to turn up for a fight.

There is a difference.

Izeo as for your post I had to laugh. Fuck that spy man, he should know its a cold cyberpunk world out there... :D

But seriously I agree. Fair fights are the way forward. Organised PVP within the context of a little RP and some reasonably balanced teams is much more fun than getting WOC on your tank and burning a level 40 apu down with your devourer - as happened to me recently.

Chuck Norris
03-12-12, 19:50
I think some people in this thread are mixing PvPers with griefers. A griefer will come to a levelling spot and attempt to pk anyone not wearing an LE.

A Pvper will go to an op and hack it and wait for the defending clan to turn up for a fight.

There is a difference.
.

From my experiences they are one in the same most of the time, in fact many times they say "well i guess you should have had your LE in if you didnt want us to kill you in a leveling spot" .

Not like PVPers will always have others on to op fight with

William Antrim
03-12-12, 20:18
From my experiences they are one in the same most of the time, in fact many times they say "well i guess you should have had your LE in if you didnt want us to kill you in a leveling spot" .

Not like PVPers will always have others on to op fight with

I think I will have to respectfully disagree with you on that point. The griefers will say this but they are usually the same people who pk allies and will not leave a safezone without a ppu. There will always be cowards in everything and people who absolutely have to bring entire teams of people to "grief". Uranus was full of them. We had "gank" teams who used to regularly bring one or two ppus to fight in their gank teams. They told us they did it because they could.

We just went and took all of their ops instead and made them fight us in a battleground sector and beat them 2 3 and 4 times over until they got tired of coming back to die again.

No theyre not one and the same. I am a pvper and I do not gank anyone unless they shoot first.

Faid
03-12-12, 20:35
I honestly dont think Kane is a griefer wanting more unLE'd people to gank. He's an old player returning after many years and I think he simply misses the way NC used to be. Unfortunately NC is a completely different game now. When I first started back in NC1 on Pluto I popped my LE out on day 1. I did this because that was the way the game was back then. I joined a clan and leveled with them, which required me to not have an LE in. I op fought with them uncapped as a lot of people used to do back then. The population was big and there were always people around to help you out or help defend when things got rough.

The culture of the game was different back then, there was a certain respectability associated with the player base, there was honor amongst people. This is not true in the current NC (for the most part). Things had to change in order for the game to survive, the player base had to be consolidated in one area, thats why everyone is allowed in p1 now. The game is not the same as it once was, and probably will never be. Thats not to say that it can't be fun or enjoyable, but it can't be the way it was. Multiple accounts on a 4 slot server dramatically changes playstyle.

I think Kane and many others (myself included) miss the way things used to be. But unfortunately I don't think it can ever go back.

William Antrim
03-12-12, 20:53
Having played on a four slot server for most of my time in NC I think that the majority of your good memories come because people HAD to be careful and kind to each other. More so than on a four slot server with 3+ alts plus rerolls to hide behind. On Uranus we had no such pleasantries. It was not as bad as saturn but there was a VERY different social dynamic.

Kame
03-12-12, 21:03
Lets take a l

DR REED
03-12-12, 21:36
So you saying we should just keep exploiting then? I mean that is how you play Neocron right?


Drone = Exploiting.

I am tired of this.....

And: NO.... Neocron is at first an excellent Roleplay game, one which very nice open (!!!) pvp environment, too.... of course.


The best way to ruin the game again is to make it pvp-only. And before it's going lost: Cheating/ exploiting is at most the domain of PVP PLAYERS. What should rp player cheat for ? :)


And this quote says all:



I am just going to copy paste this in every "Neocron is a PvP only game" thread I see.

We've had this discussion before, in 2002. Reakktor GAVE us servers with less safe zones and gave us a server with NO safe zones. How did it turn out? 90% OF THE PLAYER BASE LEFT EVERY. SINGLE. TIME. After a few weeks of play.

NEOCRON REQUIRES PLAYERS TO TRADESKILL AND LEVEL FOR PVP TO HAPPEN.

And the only way to do both of those "within a decent amount of time" is wearing your LE.

Once again, this has been done before on multiple servers, and every time all you hardcore PvPers just up and left to go play Planetside and WoW with the first few weeks.

Neocron will have safe zones (it should have more than it has now actually) and it will always have the LE chip so players can, you know, actually play the game.

100% right.

Reed

kane
03-12-12, 22:49
I honestly dont think Kane is a griefer wanting more unLE'd people to gank. He's an old player returning after many years and I think he simply misses the way NC used to be. Unfortunately NC is a completely different game now. When I first started back in NC1 on Pluto I popped my LE out on day 1. I did this because that was the way the game was back then. I joined a clan and leveled with them, which required me to not have an LE in. I op fought with them uncapped as a lot of people used to do back then. The population was big and there were always people around to help you out or help defend when things got rough.

The culture of the game was different back then, there was a certain respectability associated with the player base, there was honor amongst people. This is not true in the current NC (for the most part). Things had to change in order for the game to survive, the player base had to be consolidated in one area, thats why everyone is allowed in p1 now. The game is not the same as it once was, and probably will never be. Thats not to say that it can't be fun or enjoyable, but it can't be the way it was. Multiple accounts on a 4 slot server dramatically changes playstyle.

I think Kane and many others (myself included) miss the way things used to be. But unfortunately I don't think it can ever go back.
Well said friend.

Kame
03-12-12, 22:59
cLets take a look at the common gripes against gankers.

- Leveling Area Ganking.
I think this hardly happens in the lower-lv areas of the game, like cellars, sidestreets and so on, and is mostly prominent in places like chaos caves, regent, fire-mobs zone, etc. Arguably, these high-lv caves/hunting-grounds are in fact high-lv, so one would expect high-lv runners in there, not CR 0, xx/13 lowbie chars. Ultimately, I think runners should be allowed, even rewarded for competing for hunting-grounds. I also think no LEd-solo runner should be able to "lockdown" a high level dungeon to himself, especially not an LE'd droner, as was the case with MC5 when base commander was indoors.
Ultimately, with more players not wearing LE, one would not have to go very far to before they encounter another high-lv, PVP-ready char.
** I personally go out hunting for runners to kill in popular fire-mobs hunting zones, and this is possibly one of my favorite aspects of the game. I call this looking for "customers". Nothing quite as fun as killing a PPU and watching his fighters scramble for cover/HP, only to be picked off one by one... This to me, is NC at it's best.


- Newbie Ganking
While it is kinda sad to kill someone /20 lvs under yours, this isn't something that should be limited by game mechanics. Although trends do change, I remember a time when runners would call out on public chat channels about certain runners ganking low-lv runners in certain areas of the game. Usually, a spontaneous "neighborhood watch" would assemble and come to regulate the area, which in turn promoted players socially interacting with one another.
Ultimately, with more players not wearing LE, one would not have to go very far to before they encounter another high-lv, PVP-ready char.
**Now I will admit I've done it in the past, and I've done it recently also. I'll agree though it does feel shitty and I don't consider this fun at all.


- Ally Killing
Nothing should stand against the fact that you think so or so runner from your own faction is an asshole, and that you wish to let him know where you stand in a more... personal manner. Just like RL, the fact you two belong to the same association/group does not guarantee you two will get along well. Besides, it is known fact that a LOT of players keep alts to either completely disregard SL/FS with, or to simply be in a faction that is enemy to their foes.
Ultimately, with more players not wearing LE, one would not have to go very far to before they encounter another high-lv, PVP-ready char.




I don't think the game should be made into a PVP-only... for sure no. But I think a line needs to be drawn regarding end-game content and it's availability to LEd players. As I stated before it makes no sense that a solo high-lv LEd player can lockdown a hunting ground to himself, when the rest of players have no means to remove him or compete for the spot.

Netphreak
03-12-12, 23:25
I'm actually starting to think a lot of this issue could be/is caused by the fact that weapon damage is completely out of balance making only a select few viable and those require lots and lots and lots of grinding.

I remember fighting Paineaser using PE's on my uncapped PE with a TAR and not dying in a few seconds. I was clearly out matched damage wise but I had a 'slight' chance using the terrain to my advantage.

I also remember have tons of fun pvp'n on my uncapped tank using a TPC, and my damage was actually really decent on that. Still out classed by a CS, but once again, I had a chance of competing.

Izeo
04-12-12, 04:11
I think some people in this thread are mixing PvPers with griefers. A griefer will come to a levelling spot and attempt to pk anyone not wearing an LE.

From my experiences they are one in the same most of the time, in fact many times they say "well i guess you should have had your LE in if you didnt want us to kill you in a leveling spot" .

Not like PVPers will always have others on to op fight with
I think a better way to say it is yes, not all PVPers are random gankers, and I of course believe that you are not Will, but that it's not unheard of for a PVPer to also be a random ganker.


- Ally Killing
Nothing should stand against the fact that you think so or so runner from your own faction is an asshole, and that you wish to let him know where you stand in a more... personal manner. Just like RL, the fact you two belong to the same association/group does not guarantee you two will get along well. Besides, it is known fact that a LOT of players keep alts to either completely disregard SL/FS with, or to simply be in a faction that is enemy to their foes.

It happened to me more than I liked in NC1, and I didn't trash-talk people or act like a douche in global chat (IIRC I didn't even use the global chat), was polite to traders, didn't have any alts to spy on enemy factions. I think "punishing" a green runner for misbehavior is more uncommon than players who just do it because they think it's funny.

---

edit: I should say this now - I'm not trying to say that PVPers are "wrong" or even that gankers are "wrong", and I'm DEFINITELY not saying that "I'm right and that everyone should think how I think". The game needs polite PVPers, and needs gankers, and probably even needs the more extreme, hate-filled types you see in OOC as well. I actually think all that is essential for NC. But don't mess with the LE. Even if there are a some hunting MC5 with it, I'd be willing to bet that they are in the minority of LE users, and that most either are not ready for PVP or don't feel like competing with anyone at that time.

Forget My Name
04-12-12, 04:31
I support PvE at all levels of the game, but I never liked that PvErs can lock down a leveling area.

This is a game mechanic issue, as an un le'd runner can do the same thing to an le runner.

If there was a mechanic that auto booted everyone from an instance a minute or two after the instance was cleared of mobs, then this wouldn't be an issue.

BlueRobot
04-12-12, 05:17
Just remove that tard chip pls. Ppl can rp in their apartments.

Forget My Name
04-12-12, 06:05
Just remove that tard chip pls. Ppl can rp in their apartments.

ReaKKtor did this years ago, and it failed.

Not going to happen.

Now get back to PvPing in Plaza 2.

BlueRobot
04-12-12, 07:13
It didnt fail, people who bring up neptune fail at logic.

Drachenpaladin
04-12-12, 07:30
Just remove that tard chip pls. Ppl can rp in their apartments.

One of the most stupid arguments of all time.

Why not turn the tables? Ppl can PvP in their apartments fine either, keep them off the streets... or make an implant you require for doing PvP?

BlueRobot
04-12-12, 07:57
Because everyone I ever talked to ingame or on TS hates that tard chip, and there are just some carebears on the forum who spam how great that chip is all day, because noone reads their shit stories in the rp subforum.

kane
04-12-12, 08:12
Because everyone I ever talked to ingame or on TS hates that tard chip, and there are just some carebears on the forum who spam how great that chip is all day, because noone reads their shit stories in the rp subforum.

I assume with your date on the forums you are 12. The problem that you don't understand is not all of us have the energy of a 12 year old nor do we come from a broken home. We don't take out our anger and and troll and grief people all day even though they are under you in levels and such.

Some people like the idea of yeah I hit maxed stats and understand the fun and risks of PVP. But the problem is when some people become obsessed like yourself and ruin the fun for us.

So really if you want to know why we like the LE its because of people like you. Besides that even us LE users want to see more balance and encouragement to take it out.

Kame
04-12-12, 08:14
What if high level hunting-grounds were NO LE Warzone for everyone ?

Even if player is LEd, he gets temp un-LEd for the time he remains in, upon entrance to exiting, a bit like NF.

Warzone bit is also important, no dropbelt. And only in rare-loot, high-lv places.

kane
04-12-12, 08:18
What if high level hunting-grounds were NO LE Warzone for everyone ?

Even if player is LEd, he gets temp un-LEd for the time he remains in, upon entrance to exiting, a bit like NF.

Warzone bit is also important, no dropbelt. And only in rare-loot, high-lv places.

This is what I wanted TBH but then people got really bad. Apparently they enjoy being an LE PVE Rares Drone farmer.. That is how the game is apparently played. And then they use the argument when I say this is a PVP Game that its not but then wtf are they doing because that kind of farming aint really a RPG/PVE game that's just plain old exploiting to me :P

Chuck Norris
04-12-12, 09:01
People keep trying to blame pve drone farmers? and they want to be able to kill them? Why not just out dmg them take the kill then theyll leave, you people are borderline sociopaths, seriously any properly spec'd three star CR class with an extra cpu in their head will completely out dmg an LE'd two star droner.

So some people on a TS server hate people with LE's call them carebears, but would't kill them and are not grievers ?

I didnt hear carebears complaining/defending themselves until they were attacked on the forums as usual.

Forget My Name
04-12-12, 09:23
People keep trying to blame pve drone farmers? and they want to be able to kill them? Why not just out dmg them take the kill then theyll leave, you people are borderline sociopaths, seriously any properly spec'd three star CR class with an extra cpu in their head will completely out dmg an LE'd two star droner.

So some people on a TS server hate people with LE's call them carebears, but would't kill them and are not grievers ?

I didnt hear carebears complaining/defending themselves until they were attacked on the forums as usual.

I think you are one of the only other intelligent posters left here...

Deus Ex Machina
04-12-12, 12:28
Just remove that tard chip pls. Ppl can rp in their apartments.
On the contrary - some Roleplayers really enjoy that their actions can be visualized ingame. With which I mean - they like not to write their fight but fight it. Players who center around defending their faction, making faction aims, dealing in drugs in nonsecure areas...
They can't roleplay in appartments. But most of them also cannot let their LE Chip inside, so maybe you don't notice them, but they are roleplayers all the same.

William Antrim
04-12-12, 12:31
I think you guys need to calm down some. Debates are good but the flaming is getting out of control.

I do not understand why you guys are against giving the non le'd more incentives. If they take the LE out then all this evil that you LE people are preaching (Chuck Norris, Forget...) will be visited on them. You wont have to read these threads then either.

Izeo
04-12-12, 13:59
Because everyone I ever talked to ingame or on TS hates that tard chip, and there are just some carebears on the forum who spam how great that chip is all day, because noone reads their shit stories in the rp subforum.
I don't think RP is related to LE. I'm not capped/clanned so I use LE, and I don't RP.

kane
04-12-12, 14:23
BlueRobot would be an example of a player on my own servers that would have been removed from day 1. He is nothing but a kid or with the attitude of a kid. He just wants to be mr tough because hes been picked on all his life and its bullshit. Thanks for trying be one of the many who like destroying online games.

Siuko
04-12-12, 15:06
Call me wimpy... or a carebear I don't really mind :D

But for me I actually ENJOY and have FUN just playing neocron as a PVE game and I like the fact that the LE gives that choice (it seems to be one of the best ways to implement PVP and PVE together unlike many other MMOs).

I also do not see why an LE'd player should be restricted from playing high level content (we have worked hard to level up to the required level too).

If it truly is just about an LE'd player locking a farming spot because another player cannot kill them and remove them from farming then the game needs a lot more high end farming spots or ways for multiple people to farm the same spot.

Now if it is about Non-LE'd players having more people to PVP with... then actually just come out and say it - because asking truthfully for what you want will progress the discussion further because everyone will know what people are aiming to achieve.

Netphreak
04-12-12, 18:13
Call me wimpy... or a carebear I don't really mind :D

But for me I actually ENJOY and have FUN just playing neocron as a PVE game and I like the fact that the LE gives that choice (it seems to be one of the best ways to implement PVP and PVE together unlike many other MMOs).

I also do not see why an LE'd player should be restricted from playing high level content (we have worked hard to level up to the required level too).

If it truly is just about an LE'd player locking a farming spot because another player cannot kill them and remove them from farming then the game needs a lot more high end farming spots or ways for multiple people to farm the same spot.

Now if it is about Non-LE'd players having more people to PVP with... then actually just come out and say it - because asking truthfully for what you want will progress the discussion further because everyone will know what people are aiming to achieve.

Leaving PvP aside for a second, if the issues with mobs, damage, clipping into terrain making you unable to hit them, their instant aim, seemingly unlimited range at times, locations etc were fixed and; weapon damage was balanced making more weapons viable for decent damage output, Neocron would have a pretty unique and enjoyable PvE experience in the world of MMORPGs out there.

Doc Holliday
04-12-12, 18:20
I think you are one of the only other intelligent posters left here...

by insulting the rest of the community in one post i can see you clearly aren't.

Chuck Norris
04-12-12, 18:21
by insulting the rest of the community in one post i can see you clearly aren't.

I love how to you, only you and your mates are the community.... fuck everyone else right?

Im still not understanding your issue with LE's, you want more incentive for players not to use them? it is in fact the opposite they leave it in so they do have to deal with jerkies like yourself and your mates.

Not everyone plays in the same time zone you cant box everyone in to what you want for your entertainment.

Im still not understanding, this new found needs to remove LE's or their functionality all of the sudden, what suddenly changed?

There are incentive to remove your LE and there incentive to leave your LE in, depends on the characters priorities and not yours as it should be.

Forget My Name
04-12-12, 18:32
I do not understand why you guys are against giving the non le'd more incentives.

Why should a person who takes their LE out get more incentives then they already have?

You can already kill other players. What more do you need? I don't see how "lore and story" has anything to do with forcing players to PvP by making their LE chips fall out.


If they take the LE out then all this evil that you LE people are preaching (Chuck Norris, Forget...) will be visited on them.

Huh? I don't know what you are talking about. Could you be a bit more specific on what these evils are, please? I may have said some stuff you are referring too, but I don't remember.


I love how to you, only you and your mates are the community.... fuck everyone else right?

He isn't worth having an intelligent discussion with. Like putting a child at the kids table so the adults can talk, I just put him on ignore. You'd think most of these ego-kiddies would have grown up in the past 10 years, but you'd be surprised.


Im still not understanding, this new found needs to remove LE's or their functionality all of the sudden, what suddenly changed?

It's simple. Neocron doesn't have a high population, but these kids want to gank players at their whim, so the more un le'd players there are, the more defenseless low ranking people they can kill in Plaza 2.


There are incentive to remove your LE and there incentive to leave your LE in, depends on the characters priorities and not yours as it should be.

This is very true. ReaKKtor gave these kids exactly what they wanted years ago, and they all left because they weren't as hardcore as they thought they were. The current Dev. team will not be mucking around with LE chips anymore. They are too smart to go down that road again.

William Antrim
04-12-12, 19:16
You should probably just go back and read some of your previous posts then because me and my mates (ie the rest of the community who can read) just see an angry individual spouting bs whilst hiding behind his LE chip.

I couldnt care less if people kept their le in or not. Right now I am levelling some chars for fighting on the meagre playing time I have. I am having a blast doing it. I have been ganked plenty of times whilst doing that but I have not come here to rage about it. I do see you flaming and bringing insults into every single post however and quoting stuff/jumping to wild conclusions/sweeping generalisations and other basically hate-filled posts. It just makes you look bad.


At the end of the day its all up to the individual if they take out their le or not. All I am interested in is the good of the game. I tell all the noobs to keep their le in at the start at least on their first char. I am more responsible than many however. I have seen and felt the frustration first hand of getting pked by people much higher level who then go and spend hours sat in a safezone hiding and flaming.

I would like to see a thriving population personally, LE'd or not there are still people to trade with. I want the pokes and the research and the other tradeskills I get from the LE'd players. I am happy with that, if they dont want to take out their le and join in the fun then thats up to them.

I do not understand why YOU who has an LE in gets all high and mighty when I (who doesnt) ask for something for other people like me getting a bonus or an incentive or whatever else. Its not like YOU wouldnt also get that incentive/bonus if you spent the ten minutes (yeah thats all it takes to free your mind sweetheart) to take out your le and join in with the rest of us. I am not forcing anyone to do it. I am asking for them to have the choice offered EXACTLY like they do now, only with a few more incentives. There is no gun to anyone's head and there is no auto-pop out of any LE chip. I am saying if they make that choice give them a bonus to do so. If they decide against it then leave things as they are.

Not everyone who likes to pvp is a ganker. To be fair I have more often than not left the other Non-le'd players alone 90% of the time that I have passed them in the street or out in the wastes. I do not need to pvp in NC. I have Battlefield for that. However I enjoy the constant looking over my shoulder part cos i love a good fight.

At times I have had to fight with people if they attack me because thats self defence and at times I have taken my revenge for previous wrong doings. Again I do not see what is wrong with this course of action.

What I cannot understand is these clearly childish insults just because I have an alternative viewpoint on this issue.


Seriously now PLEASE come back with a constructive post for once in this thread.

Chuck Norris
04-12-12, 19:28
Here are some incentives for removing your LE, since you seem to be over looking them... this really shouldnt have to be pointed out?

Joining a clan

Taking over outposts IS controlling the map/real estate shutting down GR's to good hunting areas, which they never even touch and are pretty much vacant.

Gaining outpost bonuses for various things, enjoying a three star combat rank (excluding tanks,they can hit it with le in)

Much easier con leveling due to the way exp calculations are calculated in pvp

I could continue, but i think most rational people will get the jest of it.................................................................................................. ......

ALSO the biggest one af all for you obviously, YOU CAN PVP! which you want and maybe some others dont?

Netphreak
04-12-12, 19:30
I was under the impression all this ho-ha over LE'd players started over an LE'd droner farming MC5. Which isn't even an issue anymore due to the Base Commander spawn being moved outside.

Most efficient way to level a spy, drones. (mobs do far too much damage to take a single one on toe-to-toe, pistols are weak, rifles damage is all over the place and there is no AoE option, so drones it is)

Only possibly way to keep your meat sack save [read: alive] from being ganked while droning, keep your LE in. It's that simple.

Drachenpaladin
04-12-12, 19:30
I could continue, but i think most rational people will get the jest of it.................................................................................................. ......

Talking about rational people in this community :D
mmd

William Antrim
04-12-12, 19:39
Every post has some sort of flame in it... Really adds to the credibility and makes others see your point. Really does help. Keep at it champ.

Forget My Name
04-12-12, 19:50
You should probably just go back and read some of your previous posts then because me and my mates (ie the rest of the community who can read) just see an angry individual spouting bs whilst hiding behind his LE chip.

Wrong. I am in the largest clan in Neocron currently and I PvP. I just don't Plaza 2 zone whore.

Since your assumption is wrong right off the bat, I'll just assume the rest of your post is filled with assumptions and conjectures, and I'll just skip it.

I thought you were a smarter poster than this, but I guess I was wrong.

Thanks.

BlueRobot
04-12-12, 21:41
Wrong. I am in the largest clan in Neocron currently and I PvP. I just don't Plaza 2 zone whore.

So all this rage just comes from you being afraid you can't level your other accounts the safe way anymore ?

@Chuck Norris: You see the problem right? Since most people just use LE as a safe way to level up and pull it out as soon as they are cap, these incentives don't work for that part.

One solution would be to make LE global across your character on the same account. (But people would circumvent that with multiple accounts)

Faid
04-12-12, 22:39
So all this rage just comes from you being afraid you can't level your other accounts the safe way anymore ?

It actually seems like all this rage comes from you not being able to grief low level runners while leveling.

kane
04-12-12, 22:43
It actually seems like all this rage comes from you not being able to grief low level runners while leveling.

Well of course. He can't actually kill anyone half his own level lol.

BlueRobot
04-12-12, 22:58
Oh wow. All this butthurt...

William Antrim
05-12-12, 00:26
I am bored of this thread to be honest. It has served its purpose now in my eyes. The clever and thoughtful ideas and posts have dried up and whats left is just about enough for flamebait.

I think we have established that some players think there should be more benefit from not wearing an le and others disagree. It is now in the hands of the powers that be to decide if they agree with the people wanting changes or agree with the ones who think it is fine as it is. Personally right now I think that there are much larger issues to work on regardless of which side of the fence you belong on.

Faid
05-12-12, 01:51
I am bored of this thread to be honest. It has served its purpose now in my eyes. The clever and thoughtful ideas and posts have dried up and whats left is just about enough for flamebait.

I think we have established that some players think there should be more benefit from not wearing an le and others disagree. It is now in the hands of the powers that be to decide if they agree with the people wanting changes or agree with the ones who think it is fine as it is. Personally right now I think that there are much larger issues to work on regardless of which side of the fence you belong on.

This +1

BlueRobot
05-12-12, 03:06
This +1

Are you not able to make a proper post with some substance ?

kane
05-12-12, 03:07
I am bored of this thread to be honest. It has served its purpose now in my eyes. The clever and thoughtful ideas and posts have dried up and whats left is just about enough for flamebait.

I think we have established that some players think there should be more benefit from not wearing an le and others disagree. It is now in the hands of the powers that be to decide if they agree with the people wanting changes or agree with the ones who think it is fine as it is. Personally right now I think that there are much larger issues to work on regardless of which side of the fence you belong on.
Very true. Like removing Droners should be the first task!

Doc Holliday
05-12-12, 05:10
I love how to you, only you and your mates are the community.... fuck everyone else right?

Im still not understanding your issue with LE's, you want more incentive for players not to use them? it is in fact the opposite they leave it in so they do have to deal with jerkies like yourself and your mates.

Not everyone plays in the same time zone you cant box everyone in to what you want for your entertainment.

Im still not understanding, this new found needs to remove LE's or their functionality all of the sudden, what suddenly changed?

There are incentive to remove your LE and there incentive to leave your LE in, depends on the characters priorities and not yours as it should be.

WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO Here we go. Gotta keep this in the rules and try and do some education at the same time.

The "you are the only other intelligent poster" comment implies one thing. Forget my name and you are intelligent. everyone else is not. Where do you derive "me and my mates" from that one.

Ok 2nd thing. About LE. I have said this countless times. I fully support the xp buff for people removing LE. Give an incentive to the ones who want it as it will be clear who does and doesn't. don't punish a runner for keeping it in however as this would hurt. In economics its called an opportunity cost. The community has evolved over the last few years from the old days of the LE basically being discarded at birth to now where you use it (hide behind it in some peoples eyes) to hit woc. then it comes out. its sad its gone to such an extreme but this is my personal view. (I haven't figured out who all my mates are yet so i cant ask them)

Timezones. LOL! Great comment. Im on the quietest time zone of all. Its currently 11 hours ahead of the UK and 10 hours ahead of europe. My forum location tells you where i live. I play when i can and sometimes its the deadest time of all between the time most of the US goes to bed and before the early risers in europe wake up. The server doesnt get much quieter than that. So what was the point your making there?

If its that people keep the LE in to avoid getting ganked and so can level in peace when there are no traders on to get poked etc yes i agree. I also keep my LE in on 2 chars currently of 5 which allows me some semblance of peace when i level also. I play both ways in that sense. Cant really think of what other point you were trying to make but im guessing its along those lines.

If your still not understanding why the suggestions over LE removal then its gonna be a bitch to explain it to you now. There are plenty. Im pretty sure i have even seen you post suggestions in other threads that actually explain what these benefits are but it could be someone else with a chuck norris avatar. I dont cross quote as i believe its against the rules.

Last paragraph. As mentioned in the above para. you clearly know what the incentives are now in full on contradiction mode here but ok. Currently it seems that a majority of the population hide behind the LE at times (not saying all people all the time. I leave sweeping generalisations to Forget my name. Hes much better at it) and also do NOT see the so called "benefits" of removing it compared to keeping it in. Neither do I so i also keep mine in.

which is why i say offer something to the people who want to remove it early on. Who want to engage in pvp at lower levels. Who are not in the wow mindset of MUST LEVEL TO WOC AS CANNOT FIGHT WITHOUT AK!!! as truthfully thats one way of looking at what this game has become. Grind to endgame without pvp, then remove le and then go to p2 and fight. I think the benefits derived from keeping the LE in far outweigh any that can be derived from removing it.

That my friends is not to me what neocron is all about.

(I removed mine off my guys early on on the ones i felt it appropriate. the two that have em in are droners but im close to pulling one out even now. i have had enough of it)

on a final note. I may not be worthy of having an intelligent conversation with old bean but i clearly have proved i am capable of it. You on the other hand continue to spout contradictory crap and rhetoric like a politician. If i was placed on ignore then you wouldnt be able to read what i write. I think the idiots hall of fame just got its class president for the class of 2012.

When you stray from the pathetic insults and get over your bitterness towards me AND get a fuckin clue about intelligent discussion and how not to make yourself look like a fuckwit we can talk properly.

Still dont want us to be clan mates though. :)

chutza
07-01-13, 20:15
The answer is really quite simple, to satisfy both sides of the coin, pvp and pve.

1) Incentivize the removal of the LE per the old benefits. I.E. chip space, low xp gain. Other benefits could be discussed.
2) endgame content = no LE but LE is repokable (personally, I never understood the finality of removing the LE, with it being repokable you'd have more people participating in pvp that arent pvp centric players. If they are worried about exploit, make it pokable only by NPC in a city center and have a cooldown timer of a certain length to prevent instant poke and play)

The LE is what keeps the population up as most pure PVP games do not see a large following. I remember the Military Base and pepper park wars, everyone running back and forth across safe zones, that is the same as having an LE poked back in, but without any cooldown nor ability for retribution.

There have been many good ideas here in this thread so keep it going.

Ivan Eres
08-01-13, 00:02
but LE is repokable (personally, I never understood the finality of removing the LE, with it being repokable you'd have more people participating in pvp that arent pvp centric players. If they are worried about exploit, make it pokable only by NPC in a city center and have a cooldown timer of a certain length to prevent instant poke and play)[...]

/signed

A time malus is good, for example it could take 1 hour of real time to poke it back in, or even more.

There is no proper reason that I can think of to not allow re-implanting the LE for high level chars.

For my ppu this feature would be awesome because I could choose to play with LE'd people again anytime, to go caving or doing hardcore PvE, or when I wanna do PvP and support people there I simply take the LE out again ! Same goes for my tank too, and for any other class!