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Torg
08-11-12, 21:38
this is a proposition to add to the player experience: rework loot tables

some mobs drop items of use (besides garbage to be sold or recycled): mutants have basic bones, weapon modifiers, hurlers, butchee and cyclops give heart implants, some prairie reptiles drop lvl 1 implants, there's a queen avalanche spell, judgement day rocket launchers and the most sought-after storm laser cannon. (and tech parts...) while lower-end mob loot will ease a runner's life, high-end loot are a valuable trade items and a source of activity, like an ongoing quest.

back in the days mutants were also dropping street rifles or nail pistols, aggressors had gatlin pistols, higher prairie reptiles had lvl 2 and 3 implants (backbones and brain chips). this was changed imho with 2.1.
re-introducing "usable loot" would greatly add to the fun of PvE and make a runner's life more interesting, if every 10th or 20th killed mob had some extra loot. examples:

mutants: nail pistol, street rifle, flamer (+bones)
acolytes: basic apu spells, basic psi armour
plants: basic drugs
hurler: knuckles, basic grenades (+hearts)
butchee: basic kevlar armour, grenade launcher
cyclops: basic rocket launcher (+hearts)
sentinel: laser pistols
mad copbot: gatlin pistol
spiderbot: basic gatlin cannon
y soldiers: hightech pistols, rifles, cannons
warbot: TL 67 rocket launcher, TL 65 freezer cannon, techparts
brutes/horrors: mid apu spells, mid and high imps, techparts
firemobs:techparts
hoverbots: TL 90 ray cannon, techparts

any ideas?

William Antrim
08-11-12, 22:05
Half of me likes the idea because you COULD salvage this stuff from mobs. Possibly with a Salvage tool and the skill you could "hack" the corpse and receive something like this?

However the other half of me doesnt like it because you're basically removing the use of vendors in shops in many cases.

I am leaning towards it though.

Y soldiers need to drop techs though. We need the commanders at least to drop techs. Also more hazard worms. In the swamp areas.

Only problem is the loot would for the most part just get chucked on the floor after the first few pieces have been equipped by said runners because they cant carry more than one or two of each item without getting seriously weighed down with poor transport levels. So that again would probably limit the impact it had on the game. As most of them level with LE in now anyway and therefore don't lose anything that would also negate the benefit gained. If the server was seriously hardcore (like in UO where you lost everything when you died) this would work. As it isnt I cant see it being too impacting.

Torg
08-11-12, 22:20
lets make no mistake: this isnt meant to leave constructors jobless. so the additional drop has to be rare, just so you enjoy it. as judgement day launchers and storm cannons dont distort the ingame economy too much, additional weapon/item drop should be adjusted accordingly.

William Antrim
08-11-12, 22:31
Even if it was poor quality each item would only be worth anything to each runner once. After that you're just clogging up the server with stuff that weighs a lot and is not worth a lot.

Jodo
08-11-12, 22:35
I like the idea, especially using the salvage tool as a poor mans hack. The points required to do it would have to start quite low though, it should be a tertiary skill.

CMaster
08-11-12, 22:42
I can't say I've ever noticed any major changes in the drops of this kind of stuff since I started playing (shortly after NC2 launch). Various mobs have dropped low-level imps etc.

While in principle the idea sounds good, the reality is that it's the kind of loot players don't really want to bother with - not stackable, heavy, valuable to somebody somewhere but often not worth the hastle of getting it to them (the same thing hack boxes struggle with). On the other hand, if dropping weapons is pretty rare, then it doesn't distort the reward of hunting x mob too much, then it provides a nice alternative to having to buy the weapons from a shop before getting them tradeskilled up. Might help with some of the economy issues (along with a raft of other fixes).

Torg
08-11-12, 22:43
Even if it was poor quality each item would only be worth anything to each runner once. After that you're just clogging up the server with stuff that weighs a lot and is not worth a lot.judgements/stormcannons are just above cst quality. outstanding. for lower, starter or levelling stuff better or cool quality would do.

William Antrim
08-11-12, 22:56
Low level weapons are A) Bpable and B) get levelled out of pretty fast.

The weapons mentioned are A) not bpable and B) a cheap alternative and a step down from some of the first rares.

The difference in levelling speed between one level and another at 15-20 is massive compared with going from 90 to 91.

They would only be worth something once because they are just that. Bpable and only used for a minor amount of time.

I would estimate the overall impact to be minor for the above reasons.



While in principle the idea sounds good, the reality is that it's the kind of loot players don't really want to bother with - not stackable, heavy, valuable to somebody somewhere but often not worth the hastle of getting it to them (the same thing hack boxes struggle with).

This is the point I was making.

Haxxor
09-11-12, 00:23
I do miss mobs like mutants that drop weapons fair enough it might be a knuckleduster or a nailgun or an electroshocker but it added to the feel of the game.

Moving on from that something really needs to do be done with supply boxes as currently they are pretty redundant.

Forget My Name
09-11-12, 03:16
I was about to agree with this idea, but then I gave it some thought, and doing so MIGHT ruin one aspect of teh game...

Non capped new players play the game always tight on money. As you level, you have to decide whether to drop cash on a weapon, then drop cash to have it BP'd and then Constructed, then you decide whether to buy armor for your level...

Having mobs drop weapons MIGHT make the tight feeling of early leveling gone as players wouldn't need to waste money buying weapons anymore.

I could be wrong, but this is my initial feelings. Dropping weapons from mobs remove money sinks.

Dribble Joy
09-11-12, 03:26
Unless they are near capped then why bother, the built ones will be better.

Even if they are as good (which puts the csters out), they get one, then sell the rest. Good quality guns sell for a lot of money to a low level. Money is tight when leveling and that helps with the atmosphere of the desperate nature of the setting.

Haxxor
09-11-12, 20:06
Unless they are near capped then why bother, the built ones will be better.

Even if they are as good (which puts the csters out), they get one, then sell the rest. Good quality guns sell for a lot of money to a low level. Money is tight when leveling and that helps with the atmosphere of the desperate nature of the setting.

Agreed.

If a money sink is what's needed then removing the ability to clone ammo should be implemented. Every time you look in boxes now you see masses of left over ammo.

William Antrim
09-11-12, 20:27
Removing ammo cloning is an equally terrible idea!

Haxxor
10-11-12, 00:54
Removing ammo cloning is an equally terrible idea!

You've got to admit though that currently it's a feature of convenience.
Ammo vendors become pretty redundant after you buy 1 ammo.

Perhaps removing the ability to clone certain types of ammo would be more viable, say High Tech ammo for example?

Forget My Name
10-11-12, 01:09
Removing ammo clone will have zero effect on money sinks since ammo cloning is a mechanic to save time for the player, not money.

Dropout
10-11-12, 02:10
Only people who are leveling are recycling ammo tbh.
And people who are leveling do NOT need Money sinks.

I have always just bought my ammo, on my pvp characters - Just like I do with medkits and stam boosters.

Roc-a-fella
10-11-12, 10:02
no one has the transport to loot this stuff lol

William Antrim
10-11-12, 15:05
If you remove ammo cloning you might as well remove the recycling skill since that is what 90% of the tradeskill is used for in nc. So just no generally. It's a steep curve already for noobs. Let them be. This is a change for change's sake. If its not broke.... Don't try to fix it.

Torg
10-11-12, 15:23
ok. after some discussion we seem to have a few common ideas:
- loot drop of items can enhance the player experience, namely for low+mid chars
- dropped items must be of medium quality, so that they're usable but dont interfere with the NC ecomomy
- additional item drop shall be rare, comparable to warbots dropping tech parts
- high- and mid/hi- loot items (beyond storm lasers, judgements) are considered problematic and need further discussion.

so heres a reworked "surprise loot" table:

mutants: better TL 4 nail pistol, better TL 5 street rifle, better TL 10 flamer (+bones)
acolytes: better TL 5 energy ball
plants: basic drugs
hurler: TL 5 grenades (+hearts)
butchee: basic kevlar lvl 1 armour, better TL 23 grenade launcher
cyclops: better TL 34 rocket launcher (+hearts)
sentinel: better TL 15 laser pistols
mad copbot: better TL 36 gatlin pistol
spiderbot: better TL 40 gatlin cannon

Haxxor
10-11-12, 16:06
If you remove ammo cloning you might as well remove the recycling skill since that is what 90% of the tradeskill is used for in nc. So just no generally. It's a steep curve already for noobs. Let them be. This is a change for change's sake. If its not broke.... Don't try to fix it.

Im not saying it was broke, people more often than not recycle more than they can carry which results in boxes, bags and other containers being full of excess ammo. This is all over the wastelands, more common at levelling points. I assume the server records what is stored in each container in a database. Increasing the size of that database can only be counter productive (although the game runs very smoothly in its current state) giving the server less to process can only be an advantage.

Like i said above, removing the ability to clone Hi-Tech ammo or certain types of ammo would be a compromise. Or even reducing the amount of cloned ammo would be a good option.

William Antrim
10-11-12, 16:17
Torg lots of people also don't like the idea. dont dismiss them.

Haxxor a better idea would be to wipe all the boxes once a day real time perhaps and then restore the default wood and metal pipes. This is if the excess load on the servers is so demanding. Otherwise tbh I would rather it wasn't messed with.

Haggis.at
14-11-12, 01:24
I like the idea from Torg - just like in the old days. Or just have a "mysterious Piece" drop every 100 or so mobs - which you then can "salvage" into said lowtech stuff... Like with those chocolate surprise eggs: A claw in every 7th egg :)

And for the economy - as if looting the junk, selling it at YO and buying stuff would be much trouble.. This is just for the atmosphere of the game...

Haxxor
14-11-12, 01:33
And for the economy - as if looting the junk, selling it at YO and buying stuff would be much trouble.. This is just for the atmosphere of the game...

This was a good way to play in NC1 sell stuff at yo's then buy new stuff. I remember however that the drop rate for these weapons were unusally high. 3x Knuckledusters from Hurler's 2x Nail Guns from Mutants 2x Medecant Rifles from mutants, and this was on the majority of loots. For gameplay now if it was introduced it should be scaled back to a behind the scenes dice roll of 1-4 it its a 1 it drops all other numbers is doesn't.

Nobody is going to farm these low tl weapons that we're talking about because they arent worth a great deal.

End of NC1 begining to NC2 i made alot of money selling Level 1 bones looted from the aggie cellars it was easy as my tank could carry lots of them and they'd often drop in 2 and 3's.

Izeo
14-11-12, 22:25
I like this idea.

A couple people have said they think it'll be an inconvenience because it's something extra to drop, and it's heavy so you wouldn't want to pocket it.

Firstly remember he's saying every 10th or 20th mob. If you kill 14 aggressor captains and the 15th one drops "cool gatlin rifle" are you really gonna be like, "aghhh pffffffttt I gotta drag this item out and drop it onto the ground??.. what a day.."
...C'mon!! You drop 3 types of booze and crappy weapon mods on the ground every time you kill an aggressor captain anyway!

*cough* I've always wanted a "Drop All" button ..

I think it'd be interesting, even if 95% of the time, no one will find real use out of that cool gatlin rifle (etc), but it'd just be nice for style/aesthetic.. not to mention the small possibility that someone might actually benefit from it, even if they are in the minority.

William Antrim
14-11-12, 22:53
If you could salvage something using the recycle skill and a tool on the corpse then I would be happy. Make the recycling skill do something else more than it does at the moment. If successful make a new loot window open with said rifle etc in it and if not successful then just give the player a message saying they got some extra credits or some other junk from doing it.

Torg
15-11-12, 09:22
i'm, not quite convinced of your "external salvaging" idea, william. i did a lot of salvaging this way in eve online, and it doesnt really add fun. right now salvage tools are "internal" and meant to use in your processor window, so you can try to reclaim weapon parts from a constructed slotless gun etc. plainy modifying the loot table to drop something interesting now and then would be much easier to implement.

Izeo
15-11-12, 13:11
If you could salvage something using the recycle skill and a tool on the corpse then I would be happy.
To be honest this is a cool idea, but it would need a new tool added to the game, which sucks.

I mean, there's both a Remote and Personal implant tool, which is completely, completely ridiculous. It would make more sense if there's only one implant tool and you can use it to implant yourself, or others, but it's just not so -- tools that work in the processor (such as personal imp tool) seem to work different than the ones that go in your belt and can be equipped.

Since Salvage tool already has an internal-inventory function, I think they'd actually need to add a "Remote salvage tool" to work in first-person view.

(so I actually agree that it'd be simpler to just add them to the loot tables)

Haggis.at
15-11-12, 15:06
If you could salvage something using the recycle skill and a tool on the corpse then I would be happy. .
I agree, but we can keep it simpler - loot the weapon, use the salvage tool, voila ;)
@ Haxxor: I still earn my money with selling the lvl1 imps. Hearts, Chests, everything nets in nice cash ;)

William Antrim
15-11-12, 18:33
It works on a hack tool. It really isnt that hard to implement and it makes recycling worth while.


Torg i think you dont like the poster, not the post. It is a single click of a button. It is not meant to add fun. I dont see what you have against the idea per se. It is a different way of implementing your idea. A different take on things, that is all.

Torg
16-11-12, 10:39
William: we got different opinions. you have shown in the past you can get along with a situation like this, so i'm asking you to use this skill over here as well.
back to topic: i suggested putting little surprises to the loot table, like usable guns. you wanted to have an external salvaging tool (according to rep, imp tools) so you wouldnt loot a killed mob to make it despawn later, the "salvage" it to gain some additional items, then loot it. isnt this a simpler version of hacking? tool, skill, but no minigame?
as i said: this brainport thread has forked into two branches, on two different ideas. lets just refer to either while discussing.

William Antrim
16-11-12, 14:26
isnt this a simpler version of hacking? tool, skill, but no minigame?


Yes basically. That is exactly what I had in mind. No minigame but the salvager has the chance to find some extra goodies that a regular looter would not. It makes his/her skill worthwhile. He/she can salvage already looted corpses also for "extra" loot and so it alleviates some of the problems with loot stealers too. Perhaps he/she could have an increased chance of finding trophies too? Like the salvager becomes a taxidermist also!

William Antrim
17-11-12, 23:06
What if the salvager had the chance to find tech parts on hackable mobs. Like a version of hacking for tanks?

IanKett
21-11-12, 13:22
This idea is very good, it gives more of a realistic feel to it but for god sake don't touch recycling, it saves time not money and in most cases you lose out of money gained because of it.

Doc Holliday
21-11-12, 14:06
What if the salvager had the chance to find tech parts on hackable mobs. Like a version of hacking for tanks?

WTB +5 Skinning Knife...........

;)

Wait, do warbots drop techs?

Ok that was mucho sarcasmo. Sorry. Yeah good call :) i like the idea actually.

William Antrim
21-11-12, 14:20
I think that the requirement for salvage should be the same as hacking to make it fair. It could also be a good tradeskill for low tech users too.