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View Full Version : [FIXED][#174] Rarepart drop algorithm appears to be skewed (not random)



William Antrim
06-11-12, 21:10
I would like to see the rare drop chance of all parts be made equal. I do not want to see one part of a rare weapon being dropped any more or less than any other part. I think this is stupid and I would like to see all of the parts of the weapons stand an equal chance of dropping to one another. It helps the casual players who do not get long to play. I could have easily woc'ed a character before I find the last part to the non-woc gun that I want to get with all of the time I am playing.

Please can this be changed. Woc guns are a piece of cake to get (the missions) compared to rares.

This is at the very least the wrong way around.

RogerRamjet
06-11-12, 21:22
Agree with this ^

nabbl
06-11-12, 21:23
Yeah but then just increase the difficulty of the WoC Runs ...

William Antrim
06-11-12, 21:55
I am happy with that. I would just like to see the drop rates go back to NC1 days, yeah sure some weapon parts were hard to get hold of (Pain Easer Tech for example) but not like this.

Torg
06-11-12, 22:15
yeah, tune down overall rare part drop to WB levels.

Dropout
06-11-12, 22:29
yeah, tune down overall rare part drop to WB levels.

Wait what?
Fuck that, I dont wonna be farming for years to get my rares o.O

Forget My Name
06-11-12, 22:50
I would like to see the rare drop chance of all parts be made equal. I do not want to see one part of a rare weapon being dropped any more or less than any other part. I think this is stupid and I would like to see all of the parts of the weapons stand an equal chance of dropping to one another. It helps the casual players who do not get long to play. I could have easily woc'ed a character before I find the last part to the non-woc gun that I want to get with all of the time I am playing.

Please can this be changed. Woc guns are a piece of cake to get (the missions) compared to rares.

This is at the very least the wrong way around.

Agree^^


yeah, tune down overall rare part drop to WB levels.

Disagree^^

William Antrim
07-11-12, 19:11
Torg stop posting.

That kind of idea is what ruined NC in the first place. The drop rate is fine as it is. The KIND of parts dropped needs to be changed.

Torg
07-11-12, 20:12
Torg stop posting.i will not cease expressing my opinion, regardless of any resistance to free expression by you or anyone else. no, really: you can't stand some else not agreeing with you on something? william: grow up and get a life. or, maybe, keep discussing. we're here to have fun, remember?

William Antrim
07-11-12, 20:21
:D haha yeah that was fun for me.

Seriously though. Your opinion is valid as long as it can stand up to some criticism. That's what my last post said. The next line after your quote told you why I made the previous statement. Nothing personal, just an awful idea. No need for you to get personal. If you want to be taken seriously with an idea like that then it is a good idea to say why you think it is a good idea to do such things, not just throw out a half thought out idea like you did. That's what got you the criticism. The next two people agreed with me. I think that that confirms it is a pretty bad idea.

RogerRamjet
07-11-12, 20:27
NC is about the end game, and always has been. Don't hinder peoples progress to that. I'd personally like a few more zones with good firemob spawns and an increase to the WB tech part drop.

Torg
07-11-12, 21:01
since we got moderately populated servers, competition for hunting/farming grounds is more intense, right? so the game is more challenging than before, when you had all the best spots for yourself. instead of taking up the challenge, youre asking for measures to soften the competition? i'm not impressed.

Mr. Kassad
07-11-12, 21:35
since we got moderately populated servers, competition for hunting/farming grounds is more intense, right? so the game is more challenging than before, when you had all the best spots for yourself. instead of taking up the challenge, youre asking for measures to soften the competition? i'm not impressed.

I'm far away from agreeing to most of Torgs posts but this one is VERY true!
I really can't understand why people do not enjoy the competition for loot, OPs, caves, etc but want to run around alone all day.
One of Neocrons biggest advantages is that it has no instances and thus can always meet other players that either help or fight you. Getting rid of this one or the other ways just rids Neocron from one of its core qualities!

Dropout
07-11-12, 21:48
since we got moderately populated servers, competition for hunting/farming grounds is more intense, right? so the game is more challenging than before, when you had all the best spots for yourself. instead of taking up the challenge, youre asking for measures to soften the competition? i'm not impressed.

Most of us enjoy the challenge that PvP gets us.. We need those techs to PvP (since not all of us are going for the easy WoC way).

The ONLY "challenge" lowering the tech droprate would bring, was to overcome the boredom of GRINDING.
If you want endless amounts of grinding, go play WoW, or another of that kind of shitty MMO.

William Antrim
07-11-12, 22:05
It has nothing to do with hunting solo or levelling on my own. I am quite happy to kill all of you when you come to a zone I am levelling in. I will gladly fight you for the right to use that zone for a period of time that I see fit. To the victor go the spoils.


However this is about not having to farm for 100s of parts to get that one elusive part of a weapon that I need in order to be able to PVP. The problem is I will be progressing very well towards my woc level before I get the last part I need to pvp with a rare. By that point I might as well A) give up or B) go for the ridiculously easy to get Woc gun and woc level.


The game NEEDS to be about achieving PVP as soon as possible. Neocron is NOT built on the PvE content. Never has been, never will be.

Things like this issue are the reason so many people still have their LE's in.

Apocalypsox
08-11-12, 00:27
warbot tech rate is a joke. 20 warbots for 2 techs is a waste of time, especially considering their rank.

RogerRamjet
08-11-12, 00:36
since we got moderately populated servers, competition for hunting/farming grounds is more intense, right? so the game is more challenging than before, when you had all the best spots for yourself. instead of taking up the challenge, youre asking for measures to soften the competition? i'm not impressed.

I stilll have the zone I use to myself nearly every day, but going to the popular zones, after having LEd Rhinoers stealing your loot by parking on top of everything you kill, it gets old fast.

But the WB drop rate should be addressed, and firemobs are the easiest option for the solo runner. There are plenty of nearly un-used canyon sectors.

Torg
08-11-12, 00:49
The game NEEDS to be about achieving PVP as soon as possible. Neocron is NOT built on the PvE content. Never has been, never will be.
i strongly disagree. to me and a lot of other people this game is about playing this game. not just some single aspect of it.

William Antrim
08-11-12, 00:58
i strongly disagree. to me and a lot of other people this game is about playing this game. not just some single aspect of it.

if it was just about the pve it wouldve died years ago. The thing that keeps it going is the pvp.

Jameson Clarke
08-11-12, 01:34
opinions vs opinions vs opinions

Torg
08-11-12, 01:36
opinions vs opinions vs opinionsanyone got solid data we could build a scientific theory on? no? ok, so we're left with opinions.

Apocalypsox
08-11-12, 05:14
also I've never PVP'd in this game competitively. I will fucking stealth around and snipe your ass until you fuck off, farm techs, build shit, and thoroughly enjoy my time.

I suck at PVP and probably always will, and its ten times an annoyance than a pleasure.

Doc Holliday
08-11-12, 05:56
Right so i got to page 2 and the assholes diverted the topic waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay off and start talking about stuff vaguely related to the OP.

If you want some facts go test some stuff. First things first. No ones talking about warbot drop rates but as its mentioned go try and farm 40 techs on a warbot. Yeah....... Good luck with that.

Now go and farm 40 techs on firemobs and see how they stack up. Then go and farm them from elsewhere. Look for reccurring themes when you start seeing multiple techs stacking multiple times. When you ress them im sure you will see similar parts recurring and that there are certain parts of certain guns that will always drop.

Example. in my inventory on titan now i have 7 SS comps. 2 SS techs. 4 SS Hulls and 2 SS cores. Add a plus one to each of those numbers as i got a frame yesterday which finished it off.

Now try and buy an ATP of CS currently. Or a Rav Tech/Atp. Or a Healing Light Comp. Still to this day i havent seen parts for certain weapons come out in all the techs i have ressed for clan mates. Dissie? 1 part 2x. the ATP.

We have tried switching up the farming spot and even the mob but it still seems like something is out of kink here just as the OP said so. I dont remember it being this weird in all my NC time but it truthfully is.

The bottom line is this. The DROP TYPES (not drop rates) seem to be strange. Almost as if Certain mobs ONLY contain certain parts that will drop and even then DONT have an even chance of dropping compared to others.

If anyone wants to harvest some data and shit from this you need only one source to see theres an issue. NC trade channel. Watch the rare sellers. See how many of em are looking for certain parts for certain guns. then check for the next person whos trading. you can be fairly sure that there will be the reccurring theme of the same part(s) missing.

Torg. Grow a brain. Try and discuss things intelligently and with thought and insight if you dont wanna get bitchslapped on the opening page. I read some of the shit you come out with and its like sometimes you want to deliberately sabotage this game its so small minded.

apoc try and keep the topic in mind thats here for discussion too. no one cares about your pvp skills or lack thereof. This i think is an important topic for discussion

Torg
08-11-12, 10:50
so, doc, what youre basically saying is tech part drop is *not* random but has some parts in favour, and others thoroughly missing. well, i believe this is not the case. random distribution will of course lead to an even number on all parts ingame, given our test sample is large enough. how many identified parts do you store an titan? i guess the pool has to be really big until we get the impression of even distribution. and if tech part type distribution really was off the line that much, everybody would miss the same parts, so we'd have only a few ravagers, cursed souls etc on the server, compared to, lets say libras or judges. in fact ravas and cs's are among the most sought after items on titan, so the impression of scarceness may be plainly subjective.
do you really think the original devs of neocron sat down to put up tech part loot tables manually? i believe NC is set up like any other computer program. so in my view this discussion is just a leisure time activity and will not go anywhere.
just one more thing, doc: may i ask you to accept there are different opinions on most subjects, and opinions different from your own are not automatically shit, as well as people telling those different opinions? unless you want to be regarded and treated as not yet grown up, that is.

Dribble Joy
08-11-12, 11:02
Some parts are more common than others, it has been like this since the beginning. All it does it fill the server with excess parts that never get used, clogging the database.

So yes, the chance of finding a rav hull should be the same as a rav atp.

Ivan Eres
08-11-12, 11:16
Some parts are more common than others, it has been like this since the beginning. All it does it fill the server with excess parts that never get used, clogging the database.

So yes, the chance of finding a rav hull should be the same as a rav atp.

That's right.

Even if it was not intented by the developers this could easily be caused by the randomizer code itself.

Randomizing results is a science for itself ....

Regards

Brammers
08-11-12, 12:08
anyone got solid data we could build a scientific theory on? no? ok, so we're left with opinions.

Yes :) However I won't call it solid data as it's accuracy is down to the players. Also not every rares trader uses the THN rares DB.

Raw data totals and pivots for Terra and Titan can be found at:-

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/pub?key=0AhN8Ah_CjflJdHNRNzBJWnFxRHRKQURjUXVoTU9NZlE&output=html

CMaster
08-11-12, 13:18
Yes :) However I won't call it solid data as it's accuracy is down to the players. Also not every rares trader uses the THN rares DB.

Raw data totals and pivots for Terra and Titan can be found at:-

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/pub?key=0AhN8Ah_CjflJdHNRNzBJWnFxRHRKQURjUXVoTU9NZlE&output=html

Titan data is rather too small a sample still to come to any conclusion on.
Terra data doesn't seem to suggest anything is especially amiss at a quick glance. Especially once you allow for some items being new to the pool (tier 4 chips, various new for 2.2 weapons), and the fact that shitty weapons nobody bothers trading parts for, so they pile up more.

Edit: there are a few oddly rare parts on the Terra data. CCP Tech, Adorption and Thunderstorm Core all seem to only have about half as many parts listed as is typical for that weapon.

Edit again: Of course, the thing about Terra is that it's been through lots of patches, so lots of chances for something to have changed.

This is the awful thing about rare, randomized stuff. It's really, really hard to figure out if it is working as intended. (Hence why I suggested some more common dropping part that can be exchanged for MC5s, rather than some mega-rare MC5 drop chance in that other thread)

Torg
08-11-12, 14:09
Yes :) Raw data totals and pivots for Terra and Titan can be found at:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/pub?key=0AhN8Ah_CjflJdHNRNzBJWnFxRHRKQURjUXVoTU9NZlE&output=html
brilliant. i think this is as close to "valid data" as we can get. we can clearly see tech drop is not spread evenly. to my guess this is because its randomized. the initial question (thank you, William) here was: can we get a more equal, less random distribution? i just doubt this is either viable or desirable. apart from that: we dont have statistics on how many rare items have been built yet on titan. so again i doubt a cs is harder to get than a healing light or winding argument. of course: there seems to be a pattern, concerning missing ATPs for some spells and guns, but i wouldnt call this a proof.

Brammers
08-11-12, 14:34
...there seems to be a pattern, concerning missing ATPs for some spells and guns, but i wouldnt call this a proof.

Not all weapons need an ATP part. So if the cell for ATP is blank, it means the part isn't required. Have a look at http://rares.techhaven.org/list.php

I have to agree with Cmaster's comment that the Titan data is too small a sample to draw any conclusions. However I'll leave the conclusions to the people around here who do know how to analyse data.

Torg
08-11-12, 15:44
Not all weapons need an ATP part. So if the cell for ATP is blank, it means the part isn't required.true. which leaves us guessing even more.

Doc Holliday
08-11-12, 15:47
brilliant. i think this is as close to "valid data" as we can get. we can clearly see tech drop is not spread evenly. to my guess this is because its randomized. the initial question (thank you, William) here was: can we get a more equal, less random distribution? i just doubt this is either viable or desirable. apart from that: we dont have statistics on how many rare items have been built yet on titan. so again i doubt a cs is harder to get than a healing light or winding argument. of course: there seems to be a pattern, concerning missing ATPs for some spells and guns, but i wouldnt call this a proof.

maybe the guns listed as an example were not the best choices but clearly there are issues with what drops and where. i would swear to it.

I havent ever written down the parts i take from firemobbing in comparison to other techs but i have definitely noticed a difference in loots that drop. it seems to be the same weapons and the same parts dropping. I tried hunting hoverbots but the drop rate is significantly lower than firemob drops. Ie you dont get the guarenteed tech for every 100/100 or above killed. This made it tough to test because a few hours farming those will not produce the same volume of techs as what a few hours fire mobbing will provide.

Additionally there are still guns that i have never seen parts for drop from any firemobs. Between myself and my clan mates who i have ressed techs for and who have handed me 100s now over the time titans been up. This makes me wonder. we had a discussion about it all too. We are in agreement from all our personal experiences that the loot tables do appear somewhat imbalanced and its not as "random" as people like to believe.

Its something that needs to be looked at by the devs honestly. Yes there was always that part that you were searching for out of the set of five or six (PE Tech was my biggest bug bear in nc1 by FAR) but the sheer amount of common techs that stack up in a batch of firemobs and turn out the same makes me think something is very much off.

Finally. Yes torg i read your first post in reply too what i wrote. Paragraph the post please next time and yes i can accept an intelligent and carefully thought out opinion when its presented succinctly and is on topic and to the point of discussion. Then i will respond to said post in a similar way. This is not intended to sound sarcastic either. Please dont mistake it. I have a good grasp of english as do you so lets keep it civil and on topic.

Brammers
08-11-12, 16:50
Raw data totals and pivots for Terra and Titan can be found at:-

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/pub?key=0AhN8Ah_CjflJdHNRNzBJWnFxRHRKQURjUXVoTU9NZlE&output=html

I've now added Mars, Mercury and Neptune data. Neptune server was discontinued before 2.2, however it seems some people used the Neptune server as a 2nd rares list before it was disabled on the THN rares DB.

William Antrim
08-11-12, 20:05
Any chance of some official comment?

Torg
08-11-12, 21:00
Any chance of some official comment?that's the single important question. i doubt there's an easy way to replace the randomizing algorithm governing the rare part loot table database, but who knows? any official opinion on feasibility and/or timeframe would be welcome to many of us. i, personally, dont think theres a problem at all, its just one of neocrons many inconsistencies, adding atmosphere and character to the game.

William Antrim
08-11-12, 21:06
I wasnt asking you.

Torg
08-11-12, 21:11
I wasnt asking you.do you want me to care?

Mokoi
08-11-12, 21:27
No need to get hostile here.

As there is no reason or intent to skew the drop chance for specific parts in one direction or the other, we shall inspect the matter as time permits.
Needless to say, that this is not a huge priority right now with a very important R#175 close to release and in need of testing.

>> moved to bug reports
From here on, please keep opinions out of this thread and respond _only_ if you have factual info to report on this issue.

William Antrim
08-11-12, 22:13
Is it possible to inspect runners cabinets and their rare storage? I have never yet seen an addtech of Ravager drop but I have collected almost 4 full sets of ravager parts. Same with the CS. Everyone is asking for the same part. You will see the parts people are missing and it is always one or two parts to EACH rare. It has been this way for ten years. I have no statistical evidence to support it other than the farming I have done in that time. I have probably farmed thousands of techs by now. It is a pattern I have seen in that time.

CMaster
08-11-12, 22:47
Better would be to set up a log that records when each tech part drops - what's already in cabinets is subject to a whole range of distortions.

Then wait months for any kind of result, because with a pool this big, you need huge samples before you can start coming to any kind of conclusion. My probability isn't good enough to know the actual numbers, but it strikes me that with several hundred different parts, you'd actually expect to have some dropping 100 while another has only done 10 in the same time.

William Antrim
08-11-12, 23:03
Better would be to set up a log that records when each tech part drops - what's already in cabinets is subject to a whole range of distortions.

Then wait months for any kind of result, because with a pool this big, you need huge samples before you can start coming to any kind of conclusion. My probability isn't good enough to know the actual numbers, but it strikes me that with several hundred different parts, you'd actually expect to have some dropping 100 while another has only done 10 in the same time.

based on purely non-scientific experience but extensive rare part farming over the years I concur that this is what you would find. I have no proof however and THAT is the frustrating part.


What distortions? Rares should drop evenly and they dont. What can be distorted about that? If you looked in the cabs you should see a roughly even number of everything allowing for variables due to randomisation. Yeah you will find some parts drop more sure as they randomly popped up in a given day. However there should not be a hugely skewed number of CS comps etc.

2 nights ago I went rhinoing and again last night. Collected about 40 parts. In that time 6 of those parts had doubles and one even had a triplicate. so roughly 25% of my rare farming that night was the same part. I ressed the first of each to see what they were and then chucked em in the clan cabs to find out that, not surprisingly, I already had several of each part.

That is why I made the thread.

CMaster
09-11-12, 00:49
What distortions? Rares should drop evenly and they dont. What can be distorted about that? If you looked in the cabs you should see a roughly even number of everything allowing for variables due to randomisation. Yeah you will find some parts drop more sure as they randomly popped up in a given day. However there should not be a hugely skewed number of CS comps etc.
Going by stuff that's currently in cabs, you have two problems: one, what people may throw away (don't know if anybody does, but it's possible) and two, what people have already built. People are more likely to trade to complete popular weapons, so you'd see less say, CS parts than you would say, EoF ones. Recording what drops gets rid of these ambiguities.



2 nights ago I went rhinoing and again last night. Collected about 40 parts. In that time 6 of those parts had doubles and one even had a triplicate. so roughly 25% of my rare farming that night was the same part. I ressed the first of each to see what they were and then chucked em in the clan cabs to find out that, not surprisingly, I already had several of each part. .

The problem with that is that due to the huge number of possible parts and the small numbers gathered (in your case 40) that's not necessarily surprising behaviour. Probability is a bit weird. Classic example is birthdays - if every person was randomly allocated a day of birth, you only need a group of 23 people (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Birthday_problem) before you expect there to be a shared birthday. As there are a similar number of non-MC5 techs, you'd have similar expectations by the time you had 20 or so, you'd expect a double - assuming tech drop genuinley was random. This carries on. If you looked at a collection of only say, 5000 techs, you'd actually expect to see some techs 20 times, and some 2. By the time you start getting many tens of thousands though, you'd be expecting something more consistent. That said, my probability isn't good enough to know what you would expect.


So yeah, stuff like this is a bitch to tell if is working right. Noone (not even a whole clan's) personal experience is worth a great deal. Again, this is (part of) why I dislike the idea of basing anything new off rare drops - so hard to tell if it's actually doing what you want.

Edit: Just to clarify - not trying to argue that the tech drop rate is random right now. Just that probability is weird, and it's very hard to prove either way. Neocron's certainly had plenty of weird loot issues over time (best one was when fixing grim perse loot broke stealth) that it's certainly quite possible for something to be slightly off with tech drops.

Mokoi
08-01-13, 04:38
probability is weird

this. the part distribution for unidentified tech parts is indeed random.