View Full Version : (POLL) APU Casting Frequency
Manosteel36
08-10-12, 06:34
In the current state of the game I would say Most players in PvP are HC Tanks, Spies, PPU.
I think to enhance NC, and create a little more diversity two things should happen:
APU Fequency should be increased, for those that played NC1 / early NC2 should remember the Holy Lightning machines that were APUs, which had a large following in PvP.
Melee combat should be tuned to be viable in PvP for tanks, there is 0% of the population as melee tanks right now, and I remember when this was at least an Option for tanks to pick for PvP.
So I'd like to poll people on these two points, APU freq and Melee Tanks - please reply with:
Y/N - APU Freq
Y/N - Melee Tanks
Then continue to discuss below your vote!
nomoreheadtrips
08-10-12, 09:07
Yes - APU Freq
Yes - MC Tank
I think you forgot a major one... PEs.
But yes, I think everyone agrees that APUs and Melee tanks need tweaking, along with PEs.
Doc Holliday
08-10-12, 09:34
yes in every single other thread made on this topic previouslytoo.
Yes, Yes, and for PPU tweaking Yes too
tank yes, apu yes, pe yes,
......
para yes!
APU - Antibuff, PPU - Parashock
And yes to the OP!
APU - Antibuff, PPU - Parashock
And yes to the OP!
THIS! and S/D :)
Yes to APU, Melee and a very big yes to PEs!
A HUGE no to bring back parashock (in any form).
PPUs still have parashock. It's really weak, but that's the way it should be.
No to an APU freq increase. APUs need a role change, not a damage buff. If you make them as strong as other classes, we'll return to the horror that was pre-2.2 Monk-o-cron. If they're weaker, then they'll barely be used. They need a different slot to competing with tanks as pure combat.
No objections to buffing melee, but honestly, that shouldn't be done on its own - it should be done as part of fixing weapon damage as a whole.
PEs again need sorting, but as part of a broader look at what there place should be, not just making them slightly better mini-spies.
Usually most threads like these don't take into account the whole picture, but I'll bite for once.
APU - Frequency increase back to NC1/NC2 days err big no. I would like a very small increase, but not on the scale going back to NC1/NC2 frequency rates. (What like 2-3 times?)
MC - Not convinced buffing up MC will do anything to help here, since I've been convinced it's a netcode issue that makes M-C tanks crap in PvP. May be wrong on this one.
MC - Not convinced buffing up MC will do anything to help here, since I've been convinced it's a netcode issue that makes M-C tanks crap in PvP. May be wrong on this one.
Sure it has a Little to do with the netcode, however with some getting used to, its easy to hit every time. Sadly the damage is still pretty bad.
Edit: And I do agree about "the Whole Picture".
Theres lots of Things that needs balancing. I do not envy the volunteer team...
the freq on a holy lightning went from 105/min to 35/min I believe and they added a reticle effectively killing the whole class, So yes an increase would be great, maybe not back to 105 but definitely higher than 35.
Yes to melee also
PPUs still have parashock. It's really weak, but that's the way it should be.
No to an APU freq increase. APUs need a role change, not a damage buff. If you make them as strong as other classes, we'll return to the horror that was pre-2.2 Monk-o-cron. If they're weaker, then they'll barely be used. They need a different slot to competing with tanks as pure combat.
No objections to buffing melee, but honestly, that shouldn't be done on its own - it should be done as part of fixing weapon damage as a whole.
PEs again need sorting, but as part of a broader look at what there place should be, not just making them slightly better mini-spies.
Fully Agreed. In my opinion, the APU has to be a Supporter - Antishield/Def/Prot/Heal. The old APU with actual dmg/freq should be fine.
Melee Tank needs something special for a better protection and a dmg boost.
Summary:
APU Freq - No.
Melee Tanks - Yes.
MC - Not convinced buffing up MC will do anything to help here, since I've been convinced it's a netcode issue that makes M-C tanks crap in PvP. May be wrong on this one.
I beg to differ on that view, I did fine on my melee tank before the 2.2 changes. There used to be issues way back where player location was very iffy compared to how it is now, the work around on that was putting melee range upto 10 meters, which helped out a hell of alot. The problem with melee now is that its damage seems to have been reduced in comparison to the damage caused by the equivalent ranged weapons around the same TL, and on top of that, the rate of fire is lower then it used to be.
Melee has no range to it, if youre the one thats jumped, at any distance, youre effectively screwed if someone knows how to take out your legs. however because of that, ive always felt that melee should do comparable damage to the other classes, because as a 'bonus' melee has unhindered movement which can be used practically as a weapon in itself to cause confusion or distractions.
There is that balance though, just putting the rate of fire up isnt a 1 hit fix, the base damage caused has to be taken into account too and find that balance that makes its damage on par with the other classes.
Forget My Name
08-10-12, 17:55
APU - Single target spell Frequency bumped up a TAD, but not much. APU have massive AOE spells and can level just fine.
Melee - Frequency and damage needs to be bumped up, but that isn't the issue. Melee still needs some form of AOE damage to make sure the melee style is a good one for players to use from ranks 2 - 60, and not just a weapon class Heavy Cannon users LOM to when capped. Why even have melee weapons bellow rank 60 usage if the purpose of them is just for capped pvp?
Melee - More important than anything I said above is damage reduction. For leveling, Melee requires much more, much better damage reduction than any other weapon class. Even with the fixes above, you seriously think Melee players are going to be single targeting Regant/Fire Cave/El Farid mobs while Heavy Cannon users are hitting 10 mobs at once? Seriously? And how long is this melee user going to live running head first into 90/90+ rank mobs? 3 seconds?
Please do NOT forget bringing back the old casting animations for rezz and antibuff. So that you actually see what is being casted...
APU should get a slight increase.
Melee shouldn't have AoE as it's against what Melee stands for.
Melee should have specialist Armour which offers greater protection from damage than ranged combat classes.
Overall an overview of classes needs to be looked at.
Please do NOT forget bringing back the old casting animations for rezz and antibuff. So that you actually see what is being casted...
I absolutly agree.
And APU should get antibuffs back, PPUs got way to much anti spells, poisen energy xray .... to much we only have 10 quickbelt slots (maybe thats the real issue here)
carbonkink
08-10-12, 19:21
Yes
yes
Keeping it simple.
Forget My Name
08-10-12, 19:28
Melee shouldn't have AoE as it's against what Melee stands for.
And you know this how? Were you one of the Developers working on the game back in 1999? Or did you know some of them and talk to them, and they told you what the intent of melee was?
You know this is just a video game, right? Just because in your mind Melee shouldn't get aoe doesn't mean it isn't a smart thing to do.
Where are you petitions to remove rocket firing pistols from the game? Why do pistols get AOE, yet Rifles don't?
Goal - Make melee a VIABLE weapon choice to use from ranks 2 - 60, and not just something you LOM over to.
Okay, let me ask you this... We are in a team farming, okay? We are in Regants, and you are using APU AOE, someone else is using Drone AOE, another person is using Heavy Cannon AOE, and I am using melee on single Genetoxic crawler, chasing him around the room. Our ranks are such that you three are sharing exp, but mine is too low to gain any.
What do you think is going through my mind? Oh, how fair and fun this game is! No... it's... I am going to LOM over to Heavy Cannons.
Now I know what the knee jerk off reaction is going to be "Well, I enjoyed leveling as melee, and other people do too!" That is a loaded, false comment. People enjoyed it until, when, rank 25? Then they stop after seeing other people run around and AOE everything. People enjoyed it until rank 30? Then they stop until they realize charging 5 Launcher Cyclopses means either death or 5 minutes waiting to heal?
Just stop it. Melee is complete and utter garbage in Neocron 2.2 as a viable leveling option, and you know it.
Or hey, prove me wrong. I can get my Heavy Cannon Tank to strength 80 in 2 days. How about you roll a melee along with my new heavy tank, and we level together? We don't form a team, we just level together. Let's do this experiment together in Neocron 2.2, okay? Let me see how much fun you have....
Or shit... Just meet me in Regants/El Farid/Fire Caves with any character you have now, LOMed over to melee, and lets farm together. Melee doesn't need AOE right? It levels just fine right? Prove it to me in Neocron 2.2.
Now, I could be 100% wrong in all of this. Maybe I just suck at melee and I don't know the secrets to leveling as one. Perhaps you can persuade me into thinking melee is peachy keen as a leveling weapon?
-edit-
Oh yeah... Raise APU frequency just a tad, or damage, but not both. Need to stay on topic here lol....
i leveled my first tank ever as melee in nc1.. i would melee down fire mobs for rares near CRP
i leveled my first tank ever as melee in nc1.. i would melee down fire mobs for rares near CRP
I'm about to attempt the same thing, just for the challenge.
I have a feeling I'll regret it.
What happened to Melee exactly? I know they nerfed the damage and RoF, but whenever I use melee the hits don't register. I doubt KK, back in the days, did that intentionally?
I also think "Melee" armor sounds like a good idea, but it should require so much M-C that H-C users should not be able to equip it or having any base points in H-C would make the armor unusable, if that's even possible.
All weapons should have some form of AoE or it should be possible to level with single target only, without having to spend 100(?) days more than someone with AoE. I LOMed my Rifle spy to Droner here yesterday and leveling is going 10 times faster, if not more.
Also, don't give me the crap about "finding a team". What sort of team would invite a Non-AoE user over another AoE user? I might sound cold now, but I wouldn't. Ever. Unless he paid me 1 million NC.
Forget My Name
Shrank the quote to save space. :lol:
I agree with you 100% that as a viable combat class melee is pretty useless in NC2.2
My issue is as a principal hand to hand combat melee shouldn't have projectiles im not saying they shouldn't have AoE completely just if you can find away around that i would support it 100%.
Off the top of my head Electro Shockers are classed as Melee, instead of the way they shock now change the this to a kind of Raygun type attack that attacks your target for most of the damage and the mobs around your target for a less amount.
I am bit anti AoE in general because if all combat classes had AoE 90% of all other non rares wouldnt be used. If the game has got to the point where AoE is the only way to level reasonably then something needs to change
A favourite quote of mine is "Focus on the journey, not the destination. Joy is found not in finishing an activity but in doing it."
Forget My Name
08-10-12, 23:18
i leveled my first tank ever as melee in nc1.. i would melee down fire mobs for rares near CRP
Those same fire mobs deal much more damage in NC2.2, and will destroy any melee build within 5 seconds.
Shrank the quote to save space. :lol:
That is fine, I am 5'3" anyway.
My issue is as a principal hand to hand combat melee shouldn't have projectiles im not saying they shouldn't have AoE completely just if you can find away around that i would support it 100%.
I apologize for not making my point of view clear.
When I say "Melee AOE" I mean one, or both, of two things; 1) Give melee access to grenades exclusively. 2) Make some melee weapons AOE when they hit.
I didn't mean that melee should get a sword that fires a projectile or something like that.
Off the top of my head Electro Shockers are classed as Melee, instead of the way they shock now change the this to a kind of Raygun type attack that attacks your target for most of the damage and the mobs around your target for a less amount.
Ehh... If this was/is true, this is sort of what I want in game. Enemy is 10 meters away, you hit him with an energy weapon, or a mechanical club that fires nails when striking, and enemies within a few meters get hit as well.
I am bit anti AoE in general because if all combat classes had AoE 90% of all other non rares wouldnt be used. If the game has got to the point where AoE is the only way to level reasonably then something needs to change
Just because classes have AOE does not mean single target is dead. I use single target MORE than my AOE as a Tank because most of the time a Launcher Cyclops is alone, or I am sniping a Grim for Tech Parts.
Also, when it comes down to PvP, for the most part, single target weapons are always better for the fact that you aren't killing yourself and other teammates.
A favourite quote of mine is "Focus on the journey, not the destination. Joy is found not in finishing an activity but in doing it.
Yeah, but this quote fails to take into account that while you can enjoy the game dying over and over while getting shit exp as a melee user, you may notice the APU destroying everything in droves and making rank 60 while you are struggling to make rank 25, and you may want a little more fairness in your character choice.
When I say "Melee AOE" I mean one, or both, of two things; 1) Give melee access to grenades exclusively.
Only issue with that is with grenades you throw them which makes them a ranged weapon. I mean at a stretch if it was implemented i could learn to accept it as part of the game.
Ehh... If this was/is true, this is sort of what I want in game. Enemy is 10 meters away, you hit him with an energy weapon, or a mechanical club that fires nails when striking, and enemies within a few meters get hit as well.
The beggers which use the electroshocker seem to hit you from a slight distance i know this is down coding though. I think making Electroshockers AoE is the way to go hit your main target for X ammount then all other mobs take damage from the electric current depending on how close they are to the main target. Sort of like a chain reaction.
Yeah, but this quote fails to take into account that while you can enjoy the game dying over and over while getting shit exp as a melee user, you may notice the APU destroying everything in droves and making rank 60 while you are struggling to make rank 25, and you may want a little more fairness in your character choice.
Agreed 100% my main char back in the day was a Melee Tank miss waving my devil's grace about :(
I personally don't think an AOE weapon should get an advantage in level speed compared to a non AOE weapon, there is no reason why an AOE weapon should gain more experience as a non.
Forget My Name
09-10-12, 01:55
I personally don't think an AOE weapon should get an advantage in level speed compared to a non AOE weapon, there is no reason why an AOE weapon should gain more experience as a non.
Why not? You get exp for damaging monsters, so if you do more damage, then you get faster exp. Now I didn't say MORE exp, just faster.
Heavy Cannon killing 10 Launchers in 40 seconds gets 100k exp.
Melee killing 10 Launchers in 10 minutes gets 100k exp.
So technically AOE doesn't get you more exp, it gets you the same faster.
Fixing APU frequency/damage and melee everything will just enhance the experience for players wishing to use those classes/weapon types to play the game.
apu - antibuff, ppu - parashock
and yes to the op!
this! And s/d :)
this!!!!!
Why not? You get exp for damaging monsters, so if you do more damage, then you get faster exp. Now I didn't say MORE exp, just faster.
Heavy Cannon killing 10 Launchers in 40 seconds gets 100k exp.
Melee killing 10 Launchers in 10 minutes gets 100k exp.
So technically AOE doesn't get you more exp, it gets you the same faster.
Fixing APU frequency/damage and melee everything will just enhance the experience for players wishing to use those classes/weapon types to play the game.
Except it doesn't work like that. I'm still amazed that people in Neocron still don't know how to play this game after all these years. And, that bullshit about firemobs taking apart a tank with any build? lullllllllllzzzzz.
No/Yes/Fix PE(Make him the equivalent of a ranger or paladin perhaps. druid/clearic skills, acceptable to duo with in some situations, can still put out damage but not as much as a rogue or dps warrior. just an analogy to make it easier to understand)
Except it doesn't work like that. I'm still amazed that people in Neocron still don't know how to play this game after all these years. And, that bullshit about firemobs taking apart a tank with any build? lullllllllllzzzzz.
You forgot to explain how it DOES work.
dWintermut3
09-10-12, 21:27
You forgot to explain how it DOES work.
You get damage per mob hit based on the rank of the mob and the TL of your weapon.
I think the problem lies in that it's not based on total damage done.
The crux of the issue is if you put a rocket in the middle of a giant group of mobs, lets say you deal 15 damage to one, 30 to another, 45, 45 and 90 to the one in the middle. You deal a total of 225 damage and get hit credit for 5 mobs. If you use a sniper rifle to do 225 damage to a single mob you get 1/5th the XP
Forget My Name
09-10-12, 21:37
You get damage per mob hit based on the rank of the mob and the TL of your weapon.
I think the problem lies in that it's not based on total damage done.
The crux of the issue is if you put a rocket in the middle of a giant group of mobs, lets say you deal 15 damage to one, 30 to another, 45, 45 and 90 to the one in the middle. You deal a total of 225 damage and get hit credit for 5 mobs. If you use a sniper rifle to do 225 damage to a single mob you get 1/5th the XP
Exactly :)
Are you really sure about that? Because then you could level PPUs really easy, and I've never seen anyone do that.
Edit: Ok, it doesn't work if the summed up dmg counts in, but then the difference in cr of the mobs would still have to be compensated somehow.
Why not? You get exp for damaging monsters, so if you do more damage, then you get faster exp. Now I didn't say MORE exp, just faster..... But you are missing the point why an AOE based weapon with the same TL should give you far more exp per time as a non.
Forget My Name
09-10-12, 22:56
But you are missing the point why an AOE based weapon with the same TL should give you far more exp per time as a non.
Sooo...... If I am missing the point... and you won't tell me.... what is the point of your post? Do you want to add anything of significance to the thread?
take your speculation on AoE dmg / xp to a different thread please.
This is strictly on APU and melee as per the opening post.
P.S.:
oh... and please drop them paladin, druid, wtf examples. I have no idea what you are talking about (many people hug trees, not all do, I dont)
Manosteel36
10-10-12, 02:01
I appreciate the GM's allowing us to discuss this on the forums uncontested :D.
I'm glad to see you all are listening :]
dWintermut3
10-10-12, 03:19
To the topic of the thread, APU needs some serious love. Frequency is one way to go about it, another would be to make their after-effects stronger.
I would prefer the latter because it would mean your choice of weapon module meant more than just trying to play "guess the gap" with their resist setup.
take your speculation on AoE dmg / xp to a different thread please.
This is strictly on APU and melee as per the opening post.
P.S.:
oh... and please drop them paladin, druid, wtf examples. I have no idea what you are talking about (many people hug trees, not all do, I dont)
Haha well said. I love it. I agree on both the APU and melee tank ideas. I also would like to see less spies and tanks.
Peter-Lustig
10-10-12, 06:50
Yess please Push the freq on APu :)
Mellee Tank Push too..
And for pe Just make the Lower tl weapons stronger like slasher,Termin,pain Easer usw
No. sorry, but NC is fine the way it is. cyberpunk and laserguns, but nearly no elves and orcs. melee is fun to play, as is psi, but we dont need it in the endgame.
APUs need a role change. As for melee, I'm really not sure how you make something that's based on whacking a guy with a stick (albeit a shiny one) as good as shooting him with a gun (again usually a shiny one).
Y - APU Freq
Y - Melee Tanks
I agree with the APU the frequency should be increased, but no change in the DPS. The damage calculation with the new frequency should be tested and in the case it is not buggy and all hits are counted correctly we could maybe change the DPS.
Same with the melee tank, before the DPS are changed the damage calculation should be proved error-free, it wouldn't help anything if we try to change something but the damage and hit calculation itself is buggy. Personally i wouldn't change the DPS of the melee weapons but as close combat class add more tank and/or a better heal. From the melee class view the AOE discussion is part from this thread, because it wouldn't help the melee if it's comparable in the endgame but the process of leveling a character need far more time to a comparable AOE class like the HC. It shouldn't be part of the game to use lom pills because some classes are in a major disadvantage in level speed, the level speed shouldn’t be HC > melee it should be HC = melee maybe it's only my opinion.
well i won't comment on apu that much, not my expertise.
to the mc on the other hand... yes he sits between all chairs.
hes bad in pve (spawnmobs are horror), back in 2.1 a mc could take on a grim persi or chaser, laught about warbots... and even had the int to hack them :)
today mcs dont pack the punch, but get hit way harder.
so mcs in pve dont have the damage, they dont have the range, they cant take more damage but also lack the aoe of hc... hc even does more single target damage while mc has to repair way more often.
so hes good in pvp then like in the old days?
no, with the new design all but 2 weapons of the mc get even less damage, cause the 'hightech' bonus is missing on all but DG and Thunderbolt. melee damage is not only lower than hc from the start, but also lacks the tc-bonus weapons like CS/Rava/Creed get.
on top the stamina per hit on melee is so high that there arent enough spaces in the belt to fit in enough boosters.
well melee does ok in 1v1 for the most parts, because the damage of PoB is ok as long as theres no holy deflector involved mc has at least a chance. but in a group vs group the melee is more an anoyance than a danger.
mc needs love, they need to be the fastest (nothings more silly than a closecombat char not able to race a spy), maybe a little less stamina per hit. they need damage that makes them competetive, not even more damage per hit but tune it with the frequency.
and (dont hate me hcs) isnt the flamer a melee weapon in nc? how about its a aoe flamer? maybe not as big as the heavy weapons but at least some sort of aoe while staying in the model of close combat.
Increase to APU freq if the current casting bugs are fixed. Fix range while you are at it too.
Yes to melee being viable for sure.
William Antrim
10-10-12, 19:14
I would be fine with the current RoF if they removed this reticle not being fully closed issue. Also APUs need more range too. Agree with that.
Apus should be like spies with gloves.
Pes should be like hybrids with guns.
There you go I balanced it all in 2 sentences.
As I always claimed, give APUs higher RoF so they get fun to play again, and maybe reduce a little bit the damage per hit so that in the end, if somebody aims really well, he can do more DPS than right now, and if he aims shit, he will do much less than right now.
Give them back HAB. But to make the HAB usefull again, there is a BIG need to fix the overcast spells bug as right now, it takes much less mana pool and much less time to just overcast a shield on enemy ppu rather than using a proper HAB on him...
OP wars are now a bunch of ppus running around with overcasting shields like crazy...
Melee needs a boost on damage & frequency but mainly against ppu buffed targets imo, as when you fight 1 v 1 on a non buffed target, it's still possible to make some good damage as a melee tank, but once healed and ppu shielded, its almost impossible to kill somebody that doesn't suck too much.
Forgot to mention, but there is also another bug that would need a fix for apus:
- When you cast spells, if you hold down mouse button to hit someone (for example a poison lance or whatever spells but more evident on a fast rate spell) the damage that registers will be cut by like 60% compared to if you click every shot...don't know why it does that but in 2.1, it wasn't like this...
- When you cast spells, if you hold down mouse button to hit someone (for example a poison lance or whatever spells but more evident on a fast rate spell) the damage that registers will be cut by like 60% compared to if you click every shot...don't know why it does that but in 2.1, it wasn't like this...
the same bug exists in the hacknetsoftware
the same bug exists in the hacknetsoftware
lol I just said this out loud after reading vegah's post. You have to deliberately shoot slower, which I don't think is a good thing.
dWintermut3
11-10-12, 21:37
the same bug exists in the hacknetsoftware
That's because hacknet software is considered a psi module in the code. Just look at the effect the heals put up it says "psi effect" under the ticker bar.
Apocalypsox
12-10-12, 21:26
I'm gonna wait until patch 175 until I make serious comments here, as I want to see what direction the current team will take with things.
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