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William Antrim
02-10-12, 10:29
Bear with me on this as posting on mobile.

Reading the forum today I had an idea about the role of pe's in nc.

What do you guys think about making pe's a battlefield support class?

Think of them akin to a modern day combat medic. He or she will fight with their unit but can also provide heals and buffs to their team.

I am not sure how to do this essentially but I can see two ways.

Lower the tl of blessed buffs to make them easier for pe to use. Not the best idea as this is also a slight nerf on the ppu.

Or my more favoured idea is to bring in a new set of buffs at current psi for the pe. Essentially giving 4 levels of non rare buffs.

This would work better imo but I am concerned that the buffs might not be very strong compared with other ppu buffs etc and the pe might be ignored because his heals aren't that much better than the targets own.

The last idea I had was to possibly take away a portion of his strength and con perhaps and add some psi.

These are all very sketchy ideas which need discussion but I think hopefully that there is food for thought.

I think if psi raised to 45 or 50 at a loss of 5-10 con or strength, this might allow the pe to use better buffs, coupled with drugs or implants. I am not in game so can't check on exact levels but I figure blessed buffs could be reached at this level.

Coupled with 80 dex they can still use some decent non rare guns to defend themselves with/level.

They can change imps too for dex based ones if their role is then combat related or support if that is their job.

Sounds good?

Drachenpaladin
02-10-12, 10:52
The idea sounds good, as an all-rounder support sounds logical to me. But 4 tiers of nonrare buffs?

Nanites? *duck*

A revamp of this feature is necessary anyway, so yeah, tele-injector! It shoots a small blister with buff/debuff nanites at the target or himself and would do without messing with PPU.

William Antrim
02-10-12, 13:42
I know about the buffs thing but if they are store bought it will be minimal impact on the economy.

If you go for nannites then the problem is pesky spies can use them as well and therein lies the original problem.

The only forseeable work around is pe only tools but I would rather avoid that.

Drachenpaladin
02-10-12, 13:54
Well, on a second thought, there is not so much need for a second supporter role besides the PPU - he's been there on this position from the start and thus is too tightly woven into the overall game concept as such.

But i think the role of the driver could be another option, if vehicles get a bit more attention some day.
The thing is, aside from the buffs ppl are already pretty self-supporting. Like with recycle, that could have been another point of a support role, the field supplier. But there is no real high level ammo/consumables maybe except for drugs...

Its the fate of the PE to be never really outstanding and unique.

Dropout
02-10-12, 13:58
Hmm something I don't agree on! 8|
I loved the old role of PE's as a solo/small scale fighter. And Im sure that by buffing the low level buffs (PAD in particular), we would be a bit closer to what they used to be.. Then its only a matter of making the lower TL weapons a little better.
Uh and maybe lower the req's for MC5's to 90dex? And Special Forces/whatever the other one is named to 80dex?
And for the love of.. Make no-PA setups viable again!! Less resists on PAs maybe? To make up for that added damage.

I always saw PE's as a slightly weaker Hybrid - but MUCH cooler!! Guns > fairy ass spells any day! :p

CMaster
02-10-12, 14:13
The PE could already use most blessed shields (they can get up to psi 48 (http://synth-soft.com/)), but only if PPU requirements are reduced. Absorber and heal are a bit further away mind.

However, improved PE psi is only ever going to be of competitive use to the PE themselves - a PPU is always going to be so much stronger, that for serious team fighting that they will always be the prefered choice. It would be nice however if a psi-focused PE would be a boon to their team in ad-hoc leveling groups and small team combat. However I don't want to see making a psi-focussed PE ever being the only way to do the PE.

At the moment, PEs have a major problem - they're just mini spies. A spy that is, in most ways, slightly worse. They have 20 less dex than spies, meaning they can't use as good weapons. They have 40 less int, meaning they can't have a sideskill (poking hacking) and be really competent with their weapons. They can't have stealth for more than a few seconds. Then the advantages they should have simply aren't there. They have 20 more strength - but the only armour this makes available to them sacrifices the poison protection that spies already get for a little more fire resistance - and meanwhile, spies can use heavy belts and tier 3 overalls (or PA), to make up for the gap, which are denied to PEs (well, without giving up a lot of dex). They have 15 more psi, however the differences in protection this makes are minimal at the moment, and they can't implant up from this due to the aforementioned high PPU requirements. Finally, PEs have 25 more con, which does have some measurable advantage, but not a lot. So PEs wind up as slightly tougher, but lower damaging and less versatile spies, who need to take more drugs (a curious turn around from before 2.2, where combat spies almost all took 2 drugs to make them a lot more like PEs). As for HC and MC PEs, the crippling of the marine and the MOVEON (and vehicles, to some extent) has killed them, not helped by the current weakness of some of their preferred weapons.

So, what can we do to fix this? How do we stop PEs being more than just a worse spy?
Change armour around - Add energy armour in the 60-80 str range. Remove int-based overalls, int belts. All around, make the fact that PEs are stronger than spies or monks a benefit to them
Reduce PPU reqs on spells - make utilizing psi as a PE viable. Perhaps buff tier 1 (and 2?) shields as well, to the point where PEs feel they make a difference
Balance weapons and the costs of using them - Part of this is just the general need of the game to make weapons more sensibly distributed. Currently, weapons are all over the shop in damage. Also, there needs to be some real, compelling reason to not just use the highest TL weapon available.
Make the Marine worth using - resurrect HC and MC PEs by making the Marine a chip that is worthy of it's rare status. Make getting useful str levels possible - if this means making the MOVEON give str again, or buffing the soldier implants as well, so be it.
Look again at the antibuff nanites - Currently, these PE-targetted nanites are not worth using. I'm not sure I really like the idea, but perhaps they could be worth a shot, giving PEs a role to play in team combat?

As for the idea of a support-PE being possible - the idea has been around for a long, long time. Comie for example waxed lyrical about it. However, to make them actually useful once the PPU shows up, means the need for either a new skill, or (probably better) existing uses for current skills. Introducing combat medics and combat engineers into NC has been something of a fantasy of mine for a long while.

Drachenpaladin
02-10-12, 14:36
Isn't the PE supposed to be a drug addict? At least thats what i got to understand. They are supposed to utilize drugs to max out his full potential. Where other classes are getting an edge from drugs its normal condition for PEs to stay viable. Couldn't you gain access to the blessed tier by doping him?

Drachenpaladin
02-10-12, 14:39
Introducing combat medics and combat engineers into NC has been something of a fantasy of mine for a long while.

War conster could be funny, popping claymores, turrets and dragon's teeth/barricades on the battlefield. Or some sort of buff beacon... though that would probably get a bit too WoW'ish ^^

William Antrim
02-10-12, 19:07
I want the pe to be as good as they were in nc1. Not the forgotten class they are now.

Dropout
02-10-12, 20:08
I want the pe to be as good as they were in nc1. Not the forgotten class they are now.

Cant speak of NC1, but as good (or close to) as they were in NC2 would be absolutely awesome.
BTW, damn you Will.. Because of this thread I have now made a PE on... Titan.. o_O

Chuck Norris
02-10-12, 20:16
pes just need class specific items since min maxing is the only way to be come powerful nowa days

Selket
02-10-12, 21:28
The PE needs to be a Threat.

Alone aswell in Fullscale PVP. The best form was back in the day when the PE was viable in LOWTEC Pistol/rifle Heavy and Melee. Making him into an obscure opfight only char isnt in my opinion the best approach. Nanites should be something for the spy or as an obscure setup for the PE.

As PE you should be able to fight any class but not dominatingly strong. That means a Melee PE will always loose against a Melee Tank (disregarding skill for a minute here) and so on. The PE should have more standing power then a spy but better buffs then a tank while having an lower ability in DMG output.

So in theory like the old PE (with a few changes). PVE should also be possible without drugging his ass into nirvana.

Thats my opinion.

Dissenter
02-10-12, 23:52
It would be nice if Low-tech and no PA was an option :) Armor is certainly Borked in my opinion!

Dribble Joy
03-10-12, 09:03
The PE needs to be a Threat.
Indeed.


That means a Melee PE will always loose against a Melee Tank
However here I disagree. A PE needs to be on a completely equal footing against any other class, solo or team.


The PE should have more standing power then a spy but better buffs then a tank while having an lower ability in DMG output.
Exactly, at the moment PEs don't have the defence capacity to compete with the higher dmg output of the other classes.

Doc Holliday
03-10-12, 15:24
Cant speak of NC1, but as good (or close to) as they were in NC2 would be absolutely awesome.
BTW, damn you Will.. Because of this thread I have now made a PE on... Titan.. o_O



Hahahah. he did it to me too. and other people. i have rolled my pe and begun levelling him. its a grind but i love it. he was a labour of love ten odd years ago and i will play him again and enjoy it. some how.

Dropout
04-10-12, 16:45
Hahahah. he did it to me too. and other people. i have rolled my pe and begun levelling him. its a grind but i love it. he was a labour of love ten odd years ago and i will play him again and enjoy it. some how.

Haha glad to hear that Im not the only one whos gonna be totally gimp :p
Have your thought of what kinda setup your gonna be using?

Im thinking of using either a no-PA tl92 pulselaser setup or a no-PA Pain Easer setup.. :D

Torg
04-10-12, 18:40
I believe the class balancing problem is too powerful guns and too effective armour for the spy. that class should act as a combat support, driving, putting up turrets, mobile shields, drones, remote controlled vehicles. not so much of a "glass cannon" tha apu was supposed to be. true: remove the dissy, remove int-based armour, so the pe's strength will be a quality again, not a weakness.

Nadja [Mars]
22-11-12, 16:09
Your suggestions are really interesting, but I fear they would finally make the PE obsolete due to be less effective than specialized classes in both - support and combat.
That would keep PE classes away from endgame content.

I'd rather appreciate the following class balancing:

spy:
speed-high
resist-low
dmg-med

pe:
speed-med
resist-med
dmg-med

tank:
speed-low
resist-high
dmg-med

monk:
speed-mid
resist-low
dmg-high

Giving ppu-shields a +xyz% effect do resists.
So a ppu+tank-team is more resistant than a ppu+apu-team while doing less dmg.
An equalized speed-resist-dmg balancing (what might be hard to get, I guess) would equal the classes in solo-pvp.

It's clearly simplified, I know.
But somewhere there I'd like to see PvP-balancing.


And finally I'd love to revive the hc-pe as it was the most fun I ever had in this game.
:)

Netphreak
22-11-12, 23:13
;2196062']Your suggestions are really interesting, but I fear they would finally make the PE obsolete due to be less effective than specialized classes in both - support and combat.
That would keep PE classes away from endgame content.

I'd rather appreciate the following class balancing:

spy:
speed-high
resist-low
dmg-med

pe:
speed-med
resist-med
dmg-med

tank:
speed-low
resist-high
dmg-med

monk:
speed-mid
resist-low
dmg-high

Giving ppu-shields a +xyz% effect do resists.
So a ppu+tank-team is more resistant than a ppu+apu-team while doing less dmg.
An equalized speed-resist-dmg balancing (what might be hard to get, I guess) would equal the classes in solo-pvp.

It's clearly simplified, I know.
But somewhere there I'd like to see PvP-balancing.


And finally I'd love to revive the hc-pe as it was the most fun I ever had in this game.
:)

Speed really shouldn't come into the equation whenever speed is largely dictated by the weapon type you have drawn (and therefore specced for).

Simply put, balance weapon damage. This will fix a lot of the issues currently present. Once balanced, low-tech weapons should also be viable again.

Doc Holliday
23-11-12, 05:59
I had an idea last night before i fell asleep. Make Woc easier for a pe to get. I can hear the boo's and hisses but its a valid arguement. Here is why.

The balancing project is gonna be far off. im sure of that. the dev team has a lot on and its never gonna happen over night. (side note. still trying to get people to come on test server with me when im on but play time is varied atm and its not easy. i do want to help though)

Therefore the PE is gonna be sat for a while doing pretty much nothing as everyone and their mum plays a spy or a tank. People have said however that woc isnt bad on a pe and can help give them a bit of a boost in terms of pvp ability. As it stands the pe has to get 257m xp the same as other classes. This imo isnt really fair as his main stats dont cap out at 100. They are done way before that as discussed in the thread. means he has to grind up to the equivalent of dex 100 WITHOUT the extra dex. then grind over the cap to 257m xp)

The pe therefore (IMO) should have that percentage of overcapped xp (what ever it may be) applied to him for his dex requirement AT HIS Dex Cap. This means that at least its not SO much of a rediculous grind to get woc in the first place when you know once your there its already like fighting with one hand behind your back.

I can already forsee people saying no no no thats a shit idea and then not being able to give valid reasons as to why but truthfully i have seen 1 single woc pe on terra. i salute that person. (dont remember his name and it could be that im out of peak time but it makes a point) Its almost the forgotten class. At least this would be a short term fix to bring back another option for people to play as really what incentive is there other than that you can level pretty quick and then put your ball gag on as soon as the LE comes out.

If anyone wants to know and feels this is slanted towards bias as i have a pe and have always played a pe i can assure you no its not. I have capped mine and i am slow grinding him to woc. i did it once and i will do it again. im quite prepared for that. but this idea came to me and i figured well it seems daft that its been this way for so long and maybe something reasonable can be done about it now that there is feedback to the dev team etc.

ps if anyone starts saying oh its 260m xp for woc or something as pedantic i will KOS YOU :)

Torg
23-11-12, 08:54
you got a valid argument, doc. PEs are sort of lost in the endgame nowadays. changing WOC could be an easy fix, this needs to be discussed further imho.

what about (soft-) capping spy damage instead, or additionally? afaik spy damage output is considered too high, while the spy initially wasnt designed as a main fighter class. discussion needed, too.

Nadja [Mars]
23-11-12, 10:28
Speed really shouldn't come into the equation whenever speed is largely dictated by the weapon type you have drawn (and therefore specced for).

Simply put, balance weapon damage. This will fix a lot of the issues currently present. Once balanced, low-tech weapons should also be viable again.
Yes, you are right.
Forget my post.

... except the part about heavy-PE. :)

Netphreak
23-11-12, 12:39
you got a valid argument, doc. PEs are sort of lost in the endgame nowadays. changing WOC could be an easy fix, this needs to be discussed further imho.

what about (soft-) capping spy damage instead, or additionally? afaik spy damage output is considered too high, while the spy initially wasnt designed as a main fighter class. discussion needed, too.

Specializing a spy for combat appears to have always been a intentional option for the class as they were the only ones that could realistically use weapons such as RoHL, Healing Light and First Love.

I don't think spy damage needs soft capping, I think it's all down to weapon damage needing balanced.

Don't forget that not everyone has a PPU glued so them so a classes defense does also matter.

William Antrim
23-11-12, 14:47
Spy is just as much a combat class as anyone else. For reasons stated above. Please can we refrain from nerfing other classes in order to make PE more balanced. The 100 mill over cap for a PE should be a standard and easy fix as far as I know. I think it has been suggested earlier in the thread. It would mean (I think PE dex caps at around 40m) that he is on the level playing field with the spy instead of getting the shaft.

The Spy's description in the manual (paper version) talks about his use of exotic weaponry so yeah he definitely was meant as a combat character.

As for the damage output of weapons.... well as we know that is a controversial issue all in itself and we have a thread for that.

I can honestly see no reason why the PE should not get his Woc level at 100 mill over cap just like everyone else. It is simple and logical.

Dropout
23-11-12, 16:53
I would (obviously) LOVE if WoC for PE's required less XP than it does currently! So definately /signed :p


I am very much against softcaps of anything however. Speed and damage is both Things you have to spec for, and therefor will hurt in other "departments". I would love if resists were important though, so you actually would spec for resists over speed.. But hopefully that will come when the weapon balancing starts.
And when weapon balancing starts there hopefully wont need to be a soft damage cap anyways :)

Netphreak
23-11-12, 17:12
I would (obviously) LOVE if WoC for PE's required less XP than it does currently! So definately /signed :p


I am very much against softcaps of anything however. Speed and damage is both Things you have to spec for, and therefor will hurt in other "departments". I would love if resists were important though, so you actually would spec for resists over speed.. But hopefully that will come when the weapon balancing starts.
And when weapon balancing starts there hopefully wont need to be a soft damage cap anyways :)

While I agree in general with you about softcaps, from what I remember speed used to be soft capped and it did seem to work at the time. Maybe with what I've seen on the Test Server regarding the improvements to position updates, soft capping speed just isn't really needed.

Doc Holliday
23-11-12, 20:56
ignore the soft capping business but i seriously think the pe should get a fair go with the woc xp requirements. if nothing else (and i mean ignoreing the other class deficiencies) it would be fairer that he/she gets an equal shot at woc in comparison to other classes. i never did understand the logic behind making it so hard but it could easily have been a coding issue or what ever.

damage caps etc are a whole other discussion and rightly valid but in the case of woc i think its clear cut and reasonable to ask that they lower the xp requirement for a pe. it would certainly help increase the use of the pe class in the short term while other balancing takes place in regards to weapons etc.

\\Fényx//
23-11-12, 22:11
Why should a PE be equally effective as anyone their up against.

The PE is/Was always the soloists class, For optimal team play efectiveness you played one of the primary classes, Tank, Monk, Spy. the PE was a merge of the 3 allowing a bit more flexibility in solo play.

The problem however now is that the games rebalancing in 2.2 appears to have been handled by an absolute goon. (If their still present in the community, sorry, but you really did manage to teabag the whole system...)

Chuck Norris
23-11-12, 23:08
(If their still present in the community, sorry, but you really did manage to teabag the whole system...)

Hacknet and the UI also! Someone mustve been on some good dope

Introduce more class specific items to bring them in line with other classes, since the original scope of classes and there roles continually evolves.

William Antrim
24-11-12, 03:27
Why should a PE be equally effective as anyone their up against.

The problem however now is that the games rebalancing in 2.2 appears to have been handled by an absolute goon. (If their still present in the community, sorry, but you really did manage to teabag the whole system...)

PE should be as effective because he has every right to be as effective. All four classes should have advantages and disadvantages over one another but all four should be as equal and fun to play.

As for the last comment. I lol'ed hard. It is so true. I think there are still people here who contributed to the clusterfuck that is 2.2 balancing but I don't want to point any fingers and upset anyone.

Doc Holliday
24-11-12, 07:20
PE should be as effective because he has every right to be as effective. All four classes should have advantages and disadvantages over one another but all four should be as equal and fun to play.


agreed.

also yes 2.2 is a cluster fuck but im sure it can be unfucked. There is a game hiding under all this shit after all and its a game we all know and love. just needs to get some soapy water and scrub away the shit. I think it was zii who used to have "you cant polish a turd" in his forum title. when the dev team get this game sorted i think this might just be the exception to that rule :)

Izeo
24-11-12, 08:38
I think it was zii who used to have "you cant polish a turd" in his forum title. when the dev team get this game sorted i think this might just be the exception to that rule :)
NC isn't a turd. It's a great game that got some poo on it.

William Antrim
24-11-12, 12:39
I prefer to think of it as an uncut diamond.

Doc Holliday
24-11-12, 22:31
NC isn't a turd. It's a great game that got some poo on it.

ok :) maybe a little extreme in the analogy but you get the idea. i fucking love this game more than any other i have ever played. you can see my forum join date as evidence. im a supporter of this as much as anyone here. it wasnt a diss or dig on the game but theres still plenty to do as im sure plenty of folks are aware. didnt mean to piss anyone off with that comment/post but it made a point.

Izeo
25-11-12, 00:54
Actually, I wasn't offended whatsoever, I was just trying to make a joke haha. :P
Sorry for OT. I don't know enough about PEs to contribute, but I do kind of agree with whoever said that a secondary PPU/lesser fighter would be a worse option. I still feel that a full PPU would always be the better choice, because it's very very hard to kill a PPU, and he's an insane support. If we weakened the PE even a little for the sake of slightly higher PPU, the PE could be focused and killed much easier than a PPU monk could be.

But after saying that I have to reiterate that I don't know too much about PEs (always played tanks or spies.. simplest characters I guess) so what I've just said may be total bs.

William Antrim
25-11-12, 15:42
It was my suggestion. It wasn't intended for the pe to replace the ppu but merely support him. I was thinking more in terms of pve for this change. Not PvP.

Torg
25-11-12, 18:32
the PE isnt the problem, the PPU is. a PPU supported char will always be stronger than any soloing. if we would empower the PE to withstand any supported APU, Spy or Tank, it'd end up in a broken balance, the PE being way stronger than any other soloing char class. of course a PE should be able to fight unsupported APUs, Spys and Tanks. i'm not sure for HC Tanks, but Spys and APUs have a weaker defense compared to a PE, to balance the extra damage. i still believe making the most effecting weapons just a little less effective would both bring in more variety in weapon use and allow the PE to make up larger parts of NCs population.

William Antrim
26-11-12, 12:38
I cant tell if youre agreeing Torg, can you explain a bit better?


P.s the ppu issue is a whole other thread and too big a topic to cover here. We are just talking about the group dynamics between the pe as a solo class and as part of a larger group. The ppu is to be honest probably the most balanced of all the classes currently (with the exception of antibuff but again thats for another topic).

Youre saying you think that the PE should have higher damage or you think he will be too high damage with a ppu buff? Im a little confused.

If you add the ppu to any class you make him way stronger, that is obvious.

Torg
26-11-12, 14:02
I cant tell if youre agreeing Torg, can you explain a bit better?i'd be with you with tuning up psi and nanite buffs for the PE, as well as armour, but just a little. so lowering some psi, int and str requirements could do the job. and i believe the solution to the lack of damage of PEs would be tuning down the damage output of top-end weapons (i.e. dissy), so that weapons within PE usage range would no longer be far worse than top-end ones, but just somewhat. imho the PE is not very far behind a balanced role, balance tuning should be rather careful.

warbot7777
02-01-13, 05:39
I gave in and made a PE also. I love all the ideas here. Better support and defense would be nice. I was in regants the other night, buffing and healing a friend. Once he was good, I switched to my rifle.

Sometimes though when I see a spy, I say why did I roll a PE? They are fun but not in good shape. I had a capped pistol PE in NC1, back when lowtech was viable.

Dropout
03-01-13, 23:23
I gave in and made a PE also. I love all the ideas here. Better support and defense would be nice. I was in regants the other night, buffing and healing a friend. Once he was good, I switched to my rifle.

Sometimes though when I see a spy, I say why did I roll a PE? They are fun but not in good shape. I had a capped pistol PE in NC1, back when lowtech was viable.

I made a PE as my first character on Titan. And it was supposed to be my only character.. I did make a tank later on just to be viable though. And sure, a tank can be kinda fun to play as.. But its just no where near as fun as a PE (was).

Honestly, I dont see myself return to NC till the PEs are balanced Again.. Although, when they start doing balancing, expect to see me on the test server! I need my crack soon tbh! :p

William Antrim
04-01-13, 03:56
Agreed. I just want them to lower the PE dex cap to 100m overcap. I would be happy with that for now.

Netphreak
06-01-13, 23:58
Agreed. I just want them to lower the PE dex cap to 100m overcap. I would be happy with that for now.


This, plus when they get round to balancing weapon damage across the board (and also mob damage), PE's and I would hope every class will be in much better shape and different weapon types viable again.