View Full Version : [Balancing] remove unbalanced weapons
From what i read in the nc forum today, there are still complaints about the spy being too strong, apu being too weak, and the need to turn things up. I say: Lets try the opposite direction, turning things down.
Please start your thinking engines, gentlemen, and imagine a world without the Disruptor and without WOC guns in general. Spy still too strong? I really believe it's these guns that were added later, not classes in general.
Austin Powers
25-09-12, 17:21
From what i read in the nc forum today, there are still complaints about the spy being too strong, apu being too weak, and the need to turn things up. I say: Lets try the opposite direction, turning things down.
Please start your thinking engines, gentlemen, and imagine a world without the Disruptor and without WOC guns in general. Spy still too strong? I really believe it's these guns that were added later, not classes in general.
thats like saying nurf tanks because the Rav eats up spies...its not really unbalanced...its all about finding the right setup to counter all different setups
thats like saying nurf tanks because the Rav eats up spies...its not really unbalanced...its all about finding the right setup to counter all different setups
Is this your argument to fix PE's and APU's in OP fighting?
Austin Powers
25-09-12, 17:28
PE's arnt broken again its about finding the right setup but APUs granted are screwed up at the moment - they seem to be more of a PVE class than a pvp one
three hits with an ionic will send a spy runnin :/ some of the damage types are the problem. its not really the weapon its the damage type. the dissy is not the only one that does a lot of damage, it has lil brothers that are very powerful as well ;)
Powerpunsh
25-09-12, 17:35
Ive alrdy posted a thread about weaponbalancing. The issue is just a problem with its efficiency. Means the inflincting damage on a player. Some Weapons are in this kind stronger than other although the balancing was doin its own way by the techlvl.
This won't solve anything in pvp balance. If you remove the strongest spy weapons, Tanks will be OP and APUs will still suck.
In PvE on the other hand this might work, but you can't remove weapons for PvE only. But I still think drones need to be removed until they're fixed, or they will fuck over the economy in no time, meaning everyone has to make one if you don t want to be ripped off by those who did.
It was the rebalancing patches that were half-done. The slasher and other guns like it purely suck now. They ruined a lot of stuff. Don't go with the "oh just counter the counter with a counter" bullshit either. Broken is broken. The Dissy is most certainly broken, and this is coming from a guy that has basically exclusively played spies for idk, 10 years? A lot of things that were viable aren't even close and do no damage now. It's pretty sad.
Forget_My_Name
25-09-12, 18:33
We are playing a half finished game at the moment.
Leave the classes alone unless you plan on BUFFING them as was planned during the 2.2 balancing era.
Stop calling for nerfs. We aren't children here. This is 2012, and frankly its getting old when kids call for class nerfs. This was cute back in 2003 when mmos were young, but after 10 years of you kids yelling for nerfs, and destroying mmo after mmo (including Neocron) it needs to stop.
My only hope isn't that people stop being ignorant. That's impossible. My hope is that the developers have learned over the years in how to develop a game without catering to the dim witted masses.
Leave Spies alone.
Fix starter drones.
Fix Monks. PPU leveling has been shit since they were introduced, and NEVER addressed.
APUs damage output is terrible.
Fix Tank Melee. Its slower than a slug in outer space, and frankly isn't fun.
PEs... Well.. I pray for you guys...
Also make it possible to level using pure tradeskilling. In the era of Guild Wars 2, where tradeskilling HAS FINALLY got the respect it deserves, this out dated model of using combat into LOMing into tradeskilling has got to go.
Apocalypsox
25-09-12, 19:04
I think focus needs to go into fixing some of the classes that are broken before balancing classes that are viable.
Melee is garbage, and needs some buffs across the board to frequency of attack and damage. I did 8 damage with the same frequency from 10 strength to nearly thirty, through three weapons.
Ghostface_Speak
25-09-12, 19:14
... but APUs granted are screwed up at the moment - they seem to be more of a PVE class than a pvp one
if you like kissing the floor after 2 poisonstacks then yes,APU seems to be the best PVE class in the game
Fix Monks. PPU leveling has been shit since they were introduced, and NEVER addressed.
APUs damage output is terrible.
Fix Tank Melee. Its slower than a slug in outer space, and frankly isn't fun.
PPU leveling was fine in 2.1,the XP-share system is borked after the 2.2 rebalance.Teaming sucks in general nowadays [from a level-speed point of view]
The Problem with Melee is the laughable damageoutput iirc,may be a direct result of the Rebalancing & Techlevel adjustment that came with 2.2
It IS half finished,some things were never thought trough & do not make much sense
Fix rayguns (RoG, RoLG); make their beams blue again = me happy.
Give melee/APU a boost to frequency, too.
Oh, and keep the WoC tunnels closed, forever.
/discuss
Chuck Norris
25-09-12, 19:52
Everyone being OP was much funner then just spies and tanks... Lowtech rifle PE's with an IAR is the only fesable dmg output build atm for pe's and that means they have to have woc and one of the hardest woc weapons to get.... thanks to the horrible addition of the missions added to the dome after you jackasses forced us out there then closed it!
Make apus freq lower but get rid of the need for closed reticule for max dmg, do something similar for melee tanks.... melee tanks dmg equation involves END iirc and thats just nor right!
Dribble Joy
25-09-12, 20:08
Removing stuff doesn't solve anything and is worse than a bandaid solution, it's just brushing things under the carpet.
All the weapons need to be looked at and resorted properly, of course this is pointless with an imp system that promotes higher tl rather than a range of defence/offence, which is in turn exemplified by a defence system that's largely pointless given the minimal apparent differences between high and low.
lower APU frequency? surely that would make them more boring that what they are now...
I will always say that APU OP'ness was always tied in with PPU's.
An invincible APU with no reticule with such insane damage was overpowered. However, now PPU's no longer have the ability to make someone unkillable, I don't think there is an issue. I was under the impression that an APU was supposed to have insane damage to outweigh their squishy-ness.
Every other class has an ability to deal with getting out of fights.
Tanks = Massive Constitution
PPU's = Shields
Spies = Stealth
PE's = Combination of all three
APU's = Nothing
I don't really understand the grounds for the mah-ooo-sev nerf.
People will ask about melee tanks. My thoughts are that there should be a trade off between increased DPS purely because of a tanks ability to soak much more damage than an APU.
I assume people will think I'm biased, but I'm just trying to be logical ...
Apocalypsox
25-09-12, 20:19
The reason for that used to be a tradeoff as well. APUs used to do fucking huge amounts of damage.
OH LOOK HOLY LIGHTNING WELL FUCK BETTER JUST /set kill_self 1
Thats the reason they don't have some kind of escape. It doesn't really fit the class either. What are they going to do? Disappear in a storm of fire and lightning?
It must be hard as fxck trying to balance the damage of weapons/spells in this game...given the rubberbanding way your health goes down an up lmao@the code
It was the rebalancing patches that were half-done. The slasher and other guns like it purely suck now. They ruined a lot of stuff. Don't go with the "oh just counter the counter with a counter" bullshit either. Broken is broken. The Dissy is most certainly broken, and this is coming from a guy that has basically exclusively played spies for idk, 10 years? A lot of things that were viable aren't even close and do no damage now. It's pretty sad. They made a split with evo some guns are with maximum damage at maximum distance and with close combat lesser damage and some guns are with maximum damage in close combat but lesser damage at maximum distance.
I agree with all points. But now people have larger health pools surely it would take more shots of a HL to actually kill?
It doesn't appear logical to increase health pools and to lower rof.
Dribble Joy
25-09-12, 20:42
Tanks = Massive Constitution
PPU's = Shields
Spies = Stealth
PE's = Combination of all three
APU's = Nothing
I think there is/was some confusion as to the roles and/or the defence/offence balance of the classes.
One 'problem' tanks currently have is that they have the highest armour, the most health, the highest resists, near enough the highest damage and benefit almost the most from PPUs.
That last point has been a bone of contention since these forums started. PEs loose out immensely compared to the other classes (especially APUs and tanks) when it comes to PPU support.
PEs simply won't have the dmg output of the other three classes, so they need to come at the defence side of things or you implement some horrible fudge by way of a class only item or some other ungainly mechanism to bring them up. It's better to have an inherent ability that's actually worth the time. As it stands the best way is their self-casts, though as mentioned, this gets tricky when you bring in PPUs. You could give them a special defence buff like a reworked psi booster, but that again bring up the point about fudging if not done properly.
As I would have it:
Defence/Offence
PEs 4-1
Tanks 3-2
Spies 2-3
APUs 1-4
As far as I'm concerned why not just restore the strenght of HL was, after all not its recticle targeting it actually requires skill now rather than point and click.
I agree with all points. But now people have larger health pools surely it would take more shots of a HL to actually kill?
It doesn't appear logical to increase health pools and to lower rof.
^This would compensate for the sheer amount of damage HL did. Also APU spells should be stackable again.
Removing stuff doesn't solve anything and is worse than a bandaid solution, it's just brushing things under the carpet.
All the weapons need to be looked at and resorted properly, of course this is pointless with an imp system that promotes higher tl rather than a range of defence/offence, which is in turn exemplified by a defence system that's largely pointless given the minimal apparent differences between high and low.
Whilst I agree with your second paragraph, we've never seen eye to eye on WoC. Believe me, I respect what you're saying, and granted, I don't have as much experience with 2.X as you do. That being said, I've always disliked the array of WoC weapons and feel it has become more of a necessity for some classes than the bonus it was implied to be originally.
I also loathe the grind to get there; especially when it feels like it's an aforementioned necessity.
Another thing, is that WoC weapons all sport ridiculous stats and slots, and it sort of detracts from the fun of having to trade my way to that lucky 4/5 slot pistol I've worked so damn hard for. I think if WoC weapons were made unavailable from missions and instead their parts were to drop like regular rares (all advanced TPs), then that would also level the playing field a little.
It is purely a personal preference that WoC be removed from the game. The alternative of course, is to make it less of a necessity and more for bragging rights. That I could live with.
If I'm missing the main reason you (and others) feel WoC should remain in game, please do help to educate me.
I hope you can at least appreciate where I'm coming from.
on a side note, we are having a proper balancing debate. Not had one of these in years!
As I would have it:
Defence/Offence
PEs 4-1
Tanks 3-2
Spies 2-3
APUs 1-4
I do not understand this, explain?
Dribble Joy
25-09-12, 21:34
Whilst I agree with your second paragraph, we've never seen eye to eye on WoC.
Actually I think we do (though frankly my memory is appalling), just that we're focused on different areas.
If I'm missing the main reason you (and others) feel WoC should remain in game, please do help to educate me.
I think I probably agree with you about WoC as it stands. I like the concept of WoC and want it as part of the game and think it has great potential, but it's current implementation is flawed.
I hope you can at least appreciate where I'm coming from.
Like I said ;).
I do not understand this, explain?
PEs have the highest defence and the lowest offence.
APUs have the lowest defence and the highest offence.
The other two classes would fit in-between.
To make it clear: i like playing the spy more than any other class. but to my understanding (formed in late 2002, when i first joined the game) the spy isnt exactly a combat class. engineer, scientist, hacker, driver, even sniper and stealther, but never a frontline warrior like in these days. so my idea is to tune down spy damage output and concentrate on the tech support role. driving a tank, putting up turrets to fire on your foes, or even supply allies with nanite-health and nanite-shields. sort of.
To say that the SPY should be a support-only class is outrageous to me, as the spys have always been a viable PvP class. They were viable in duels, OP wars, and city/zoneline fighting.
Also spys have been designed to use the highest TL DEX weapons, so in that view it makes sense that they do more damage than PEs or Tanks using similar weapons. The only class that should make more damage/minute is the APU, for obvious reasons.
***Also to be considered : since the nanite tools now surpass the PSI spells for selfcast on a spy. Now I personnally dislike this, but what I dislike even more is the fact it takes about 80 hard aggressor missions to cap the PSI on the spy, and that once capped it is completely useless. I would like to see the shelter spy make a comeback.
To say that the SPY should be a support-only class is outrageous to me, as the spys have always been a viable PvP class. They were viable in duels, OP wars, and city/zoneline fighting.
Also spys have been designed to use the highest TL DEX weapons, so in that view it makes sense that they do more damage than PEs or Tanks using similar weapons. The only class that should make more damage/minute is the APU, for obvious reasons.
***Also to be considered : since the nanite tools now surpass the PSI spells for selfcast on a spy. Now I personnally dislike this, but what I dislike even more is the fact it takes about 80 hard aggressor missions to cap the PSI on the spy, and that once capped it is completely useless. I would like to see the shelter spy make a comeback.
I've asked trivaldi if the mods have any plans on re-balancing and got no response.
It displeased me.
Dribble Joy
26-09-12, 00:07
I've asked trivaldi if the mods have any plans on re-balancing and got no response.
It displeased me.
I'm not surprised in the slightest. The team have far bigger things on their plate and in any case are not going to give anything more than a 'political' response on the matter.
I'm not surprised in the slightest. The team have far bigger things on their plate and in any case are not going to give anything more than a 'political' response on the matter.
I know, I know.
I understand they're busy and what not. Impatience is just a terrible thing.
William Antrim
28-09-12, 15:16
We already got told that the first patch is technical and they will inform of other changes later. For now we can assume woc has gone as the tunnels are closed. This is a good thing. All hail regular rares. We want an nc1 feel to the game, not nc2.
By removing woc you would turn every single combat spy in the game into a dissy spy, is that what we want? They need to rebalance everything, not remove stuff. I dont think woc should be a requirement for pvp, it isnt now, and shouldnt be later.
By removing woc you would turn every single combat spy in the game into a dissy spy, is that what we want? They need to rebalance everything, not remove stuff. I dont think woc should be a requirement for pvp, it isnt now, and shouldnt be later.
It is for PEs.
PE's don't count lol even with woc they still suck hardcore
Apocalypsox
28-09-12, 17:41
and thats a problem. I say leave it gone until everything else gets balanced. Then MAYBE balance the WoC stuff and bring it back.
Chuck Norris
28-09-12, 18:08
Woc really only effects spies if you think about it which is why its retarded... they are the only ones who use the WOC weapons aside from PE's (IAR and they still suck) No other class uses woc weapons, certainly not monks (no woc modules). Tank's WoC'kett launcher is about as useful as the red clowncar with the grenade launcher on it but twice as deadly to yourself, so no weapons for tanks!
Woc really only effects spies if you think about it which is why its retarded... they are the only ones who use the WOC weapons aside from PE's (IAR and they still suck) No other class uses woc weapons, certainly not monks (no woc modules). Tank's WoC'kett launcher is about as useful as the red clowncar with the grenade launcher on it but twice as deadly to yourself, so no weapons for tanks!
In what World does IAR PE's suck? :wtf:
William Antrim
28-09-12, 19:08
In what World does IAR PE's suck? :wtf:
Terra.
Terra.
I have done quite a few damage tests with it (with stationary targets). And the IAR PE beat every other class/weapon, every time..
Even against a Ionic pistol switching PE - The IAR PE was at about half Health when the Ionic pistol PE dropped.
I didnt test against a Creed tank, since thats not a weapon used in actual PvP (However on a stationary target, I do suspect that the Creed tank would win.. :p )
Obviously in actual PvP people isnt stationary, but its really not a hard weapon to use.
I still wouldnt use it for opfights though - but thats because of the PA bug after rez..
William Antrim
28-09-12, 21:35
Too many variables to make this actually scientific.
In any case if it was any good you would see lots of rifle pe's with it, and you dont. This is a problem.
Too many variables to make this actually scientific.
In any case if it was any good you would see lots of rifle pe's with it, and you dont. This is a problem.
I agree. And the problem with the setup (and all PE setups really), is that its great in duels, but bad in larger scale fights.
Honestly I dont think I ever lost a duel on Walker when I was using IAR's on him. Im a fan of shitty setups though, so now hes a noPA Xbow PE :p
Actually I really have no idea why there wasent more IAR PE's around. Since it without doubt was the best weapon for PE's.
Maybe just because it was such a pain to get the IAR's? I dont know..
Maybe it was just because people couldnt get their head around Xbow not being the best PE weapon..
Or maybe it was because you had to sacrifice a lot to get to 108 Dex?
So many possible reasons :)
Doc Holliday
29-09-12, 03:36
was/is the swat rifle ever any good? i have one on terra for my beloved pe but not dueled in forever and i really cant recall the last op fight i went to in nc2......
was/is the swat rifle ever any good? i have one on terra for my beloved pe but not dueled in forever and i really cant recall the last op fight i went to in nc2......
I didnt like the SWAT rifle, no.
Have one myself on Terra, but only used it for a couple of weeks - it just didnt do enough dmg IIRC.
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