View Full Version : Runspeed
How difficult would it be to adjust the runspeed?
At the moment we have some problems with the servers not being able to handle the high runspeed of the NC characters.
The "Clipping"-Problem is getting adressed already, but maybe we could adjust some other things too.
Every standard cookie cutter build relies on speed. Agility > 150, ATL >= 100 and there you go. Result is clipping, characters "flying" above the ground and netcode getting completely fcuked up.
You do not need any movement (dodging, changing direction and so on), everybody with low HP is just running away.
Maybe you could decrease the runspeed to a good amount, so that there is something like a "harder" softcapp?
But of course I also see some problems.
- Melee Tanks are not viable at all in OP Fights at the moment (they are perfectly viable in 1on1 situations though), if you adjust the speed melees become even crappier.
- Less points having to be spent on Agility means more points spent on R-C or P-C? On the other hand less points spent in ATL means more resist?
Getting the formular for calculating the runspeed would help a lot btw.
Agree this needs to be addressed along with clipping, dodge/evasion fine, but to the level of breaking the boundaries of a game is not the idea. Sure make yourself hard to hit, but not impossible.
P.s. I want my drugged up melee PE from early days back :)
tbh I think if clipping is genuinely fixed, people will naturally graduate towards less runspeed over time. Of course at the start people will continue using their current setups, but as soon as people realize clipping is not as effective, they will most likely return to sinking more points into High tech and rifle/pistol. This will allow melee tanks to still be effective, yet people will realize tank, spy and pe setups will now have more efficient setups with less runspeed.
Powerpunsh
29-08-12, 14:05
Correct me if im wrong, but isnt clipping just the fact runner can pass through walls/buildings/hills? If yes people wont change anything it just would change the way you see the runner. He can still bug through a lab hackterm and would not pass through it he would stick at a wall or something but would take no damage cause his serverposition is already another and the LoS isnt free.
Runspeedcap is needed or just reduce the effect of atl/agl. That might do all classes slower so you can shoot afterwards. :)
Drachenpaladin
29-08-12, 14:14
Correct me if im wrong, but isnt clipping just the fact runner can pass through walls/buildings/hills? If yes people wont change anything it just would change the way you see the runner. He can still bug through a lab hackterm and would not pass through it he would stick at a wall or something but would take no damage cause his serverposition is already another and the LoS isnt free.
Runspeedcap is needed or just reduce the effect of atl/agl. That might do all classes slower so you can shoot afterwards. :)
Afaik there are 2 different kinds of problems here:
1 - bad collision boxes that just don't fit the visible geometry (the hack term, rocks etc.)
2 - imprecise display of player-positions
from the video description, what they fixed is that the players can now always be hit (unless the one shooting is on the other side of the wall obviously), so no more hiding inside walls. The only thing that will still exist is that you run around an object and might get stuck visually until it pops to the other side. but at all times the clipping person can be hit from some angle, which it cudn't before.
also, if it hits on ur screen, it very very likely hits on the server as well, which is why people were always complaining about getting hit in stealth, because there's about a 200-400ms (almost half a second!) discrepancy between u pressing stealth, and stealth showing up on ur opponent's screen.
and like drachenpaladin says, the collision boxes are something else entirely, going through those was never really called clipping, since if u aim properly u can easily follow those people through the hackterm or rocks.
from the video description, what they fixed is that the players can now always be hit (unless the one shooting is on the other side of the wall obviously), so no more hiding inside walls. The only thing that will still exist is that you run around an object and might get stuck visually until it pops to the other side. but at all times the clipping person can be hit from some angle, which it cudn't before.
This is true, but needs some more testing on the public testserver. Clipping through hills and in holes in the terrain no longer happens, and it makes it much easier to shoot your target now. Clipping needs to be tested in city sectors and also in the wasteland.
also, if it hits on ur screen, it very very likely hits on the server as well, which is why people were always complaining about getting hit in stealth, because there's about a 200-400ms (almost half a second!) discrepancy between u pressing stealth, and stealth showing up on ur opponent's screen.
This is also true, the client tells the server "Hey, I'm targeting xxx and I have shot them" and the server goes "Okay, this can happen" and damage is dealt. People who get stuck on corners could be shot at and take damage even though they are somewhere else in the map. This may just end up being a downside to clipping around objects ;)
and like drachenpaladin says, the collision boxes are something else entirely, going through those was never really called clipping, since if u aim properly u can easily follow those people through the hackterm or rocks.
The hackterm does not stop the targeting of objects. An object inside the hackterm can be targeted just fine, they are just not totally visible and that makes it a bit harder to target. This is something that could be mentioned in the bug reports forum by the way *poke poke*
Also, hello :)
Hello! Good to see this is going in the right direction
Powerpunsh
30-08-12, 00:33
...
This is also true, the client tells the server "Hey, I'm targeting xxx and I have shot them" and the server goes "Okay, this can happen" and damage is dealt. People who get stuck on corners could be shot at and take damage even though they are somewhere else in the map. This may just end up being a downside to clipping around objects ;)...
Wait.
It means, if someone is stuck at a wall on my client (on his client hes running through the hackterm, but is stuck at a corner on my client) i shoot him and he takes Damage? There is also a bug a runner isnt moveing he just gets higher and higher and rises off the ground. If i shoot that "free target" in the air, he will probably die, cause my client says "hey i hit him, gimme some red numbers" even hes somerwhere else, maybe behind the shop healing up or refill his Quickbelt?
Wait.
It means, if someone is stuck at a wall on my client (on his client hes running through the hackterm, but is stuck at a corner on my client) i shoot him and he takes Damage? There is also a bug a runner isnt moveing he just gets higher and higher and rises off the ground. If i shoot that "free target" in the air, he will probably die, cause my client says "hey i hit him, gimme some red numbers" even hes somerwhere else, maybe behind the shop healing up or refill his Quickbelt?
Short version: Yes
Long version: This is true with some things, obviously if the runner is out of your range (using a psi spell) you will not cause damage, but simply fail the cast even though he is right in front of you. It is an odd bug but has been noted. More testing is required on the testserver to know if this is still an issue though with the new clipping system. So I urge you all to get testing :)
EDIT- The bug you mentioned happens most in Neofrag, where the runner just goes up up up.
Another thing on the runspeed:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=elvxz5xNxX4&feature=plcp
Why does it have to be so fast? I am chasing that tank at high speed and of course the server has its problems with it.
At the moment wie also have the problem that new runners are not able to hit anything in PvP. It is too fast. They die like 100 times in a row without killing anybody.
This game is faster than Quake/UT. Please adjust this.
It would also lead to that people would spec more resist, which means a higher varation of settings
he doesn't have his weapon out, which is why he can outrun you. that's supposed to be the way tanks can heal up, as spies and pe's have stealth to get away.
the relative speed is good tbh, a non-weapon wielding, completely low tech tank should ALWAYS be able to outrun a hightech tank with his weapon out, else what would be the point of a low-tech tank?
as to the total speed (urs and his), I wouldn't mind if it slowed down a bit, but if clipping is fixed, and a server move can deal with people moving around again, the speed will drop down anyway with people speccing resists in lieu of clipping.
I know I sound very conservative, but I really believe balancing should be done intelligently and in increments, not change every single thing in one go, as noone can predict how a change like not being able to clip will affect gameplay when people get used to it. It's possible that speed needs to go down too, but please let's wait till we see what effect not being able to clip has, because I personally think not clipping will already make playing a tank incredibly hard, removing the speed as well might make him unplayable in opfights (tanks drop so incredibly fast if they can't clip.. and more than one person is focussing)
he doesn't have his weapon out, which is why he can outrun you. that's supposed to be the way tanks can heal up, as spies and pe's have stealth to get away.
the relative speed is good tbh, a non-weapon wielding, completely low tech tank should ALWAYS be able to outrun a hightech tank with his weapon out, else what would be the point of a low-tech tank?
The speed malus imposed by weapons is clearly not the issue at hand here.
At least, I don't see anyone raising that issue.
With the clipping issue already being addressed, the remaining question is the overall runspeed.
I agree that the runspeed we have is insane and I would certainly hope to see this toned down in the future - which, as you rightly point out, has to be done with a close eye on the broader balancing being affected through any such measures.
Still, if tanks are only viable with clipping, something else needs fixing as well I say. Not an argument to maintain current speed levels on capped & drugged chars.
I think everyone who witnessed the 2.2 testserver phase and it's release, agrees that the project was rushed to an end and a good balance was not the result. Thus I have hopes this will become the focus again (maybe after the bugfix patch that is currently being tested).
Long story short: +1 on flattening out the speed curve in the upper section some more.
then what is the issue in that video? all I see is clipping through mountains (which I assume is fixed), and a lowtech tank with his weapon gone, out-distancing a high-tech tank with his weapons out? I genuinely don't get what you are upset about in the video?
then what is the issue in that video? all I see is clipping through mountains (which I assume is fixed), and a lowtech tank with his weapon gone, out-distancing a high-tech tank with his weapons out? I genuinely don't get what you are upset about in the video?
The video shows clipping for which runspeed is not the immediate cause, but a very important factor.
As far as I understand the fix, it does not solve the underlaying problem of positon errors - it will just become harder to abuse them on purpose as the char remains visible at all times.
Clipping occurs when the the movement approximation inbetween 2 position updates and map geometry get into an unhealthy argument. The amount of clipping is thus directly related to the distance traveled between position updates .. and distance in relation to time is ... voila ... runspeed. So I would agree that the video does fit the thread title nicely, as it illustrates the current rate of clipping errors in certain terrain :)
he doesn't have his weapon out, which is why he can outrun you. that's supposed to be the way tanks can heal up, as spies and pe's have stealth to get away.
the relative speed is good tbh, a non-weapon wielding, completely low tech tank should ALWAYS be able to outrun a hightech tank with his weapon out, else what would be the point of a low-tech tank?
as to the total speed (urs and his), I wouldn't mind if it slowed down a bit, but if clipping is fixed, and a server move can deal with people moving around again, the speed will drop down anyway with people speccing resists in lieu of clipping.
I know I sound very conservative, but I really believe balancing should be done intelligently and in increments, not change every single thing in one go, as noone can predict how a change like not being able to clip will affect gameplay when people get used to it. It's possible that speed needs to go down too, but please let's wait till we see what effect not being able to clip has, because I personally think not clipping will already make playing a tank incredibly hard, removing the speed as well might make him unplayable in opfights (tanks drop so incredibly fast if they can't clip.. and more than one person is focussing)
This is not about that this guy "outruns" me. It simply doesn't matter. The thing is that the whole pursuit could haven even worked with lower speed on both sides.
And I think the fun would have been higher.
This game is too fast. The server have their problems with it and the players have their problems with it. Why don't we adjust it ?
The video shows clipping for which runspeed is not the immediate cause, but a very important factor.
As far as I understand the fix, it does not solve the underlaying problem of positon errors - it will just become harder to abuse them on purpose as the char remains visible at all times.
Clipping occurs when the the movement approximation inbetween 2 position updates and map geometry get into an unhealthy argument. The amount of clipping is thus directly related to the distance traveled between position updates .. and distance in relation to time is ... voila ... runspeed. So I would agree that the video does fit the thread title nicely, as it illustrates the current rate of clipping errors in certain terrain :)
not really, as apparently all these have been fixed in the patch without touching runspeed?
not really, as apparently all these have been fixed in the patch without touching runspeed?
it does not solve the underlaying problem of positon errors - it will just become harder to abuse them on purpose as the char remains visible at all times.
sorry for repeating myself here. :)
Try it yourself please.
This is not about that this guy "outruns" me. It simply doesn't matter. The thing is that the whole pursuit could haven even worked with lower speed on both sides.
And I think the fun would have been higher.
This game is too fast. The server have their problems with it and the players have their problems with it. Why don't we adjust it ?
you say that it is not nescesary to have all this speed, and I think I disagree, I think when speed becomes healthy dodging again instead of using it to clip, it will become a choice. Currently resists are almost completely useless, as speed means clipping, and while clipping, resists are useless.
when clipping is removed from the equation, resist setups become a viable option again, but a speed setup becomes skill based again. When I'm on my apu, I always get complimented because I am very hard to hit in duels (not in opwars regretfully...), because I am used to Global agenda, natural selection and other games, where moving in a proper way to break fire, instead of just resists etc, or the simple running in a circle that most people use (watch the fight night video again, the movement of the majority is very predictable).
I just think that when we make other options viable again, a lot of people will choose to forgo speed and turn to resists, and in that case I still would like to see speed as an option, otherwise we're just forcing people into other cookie cutter setups. They might be different from now, but they will still be cookie cutter.
So what I would like to see is that speed becomes something that requires skill to use effectively, but has several tradeoffs such as lower damage, not being able to use high tech, low resists, etc etc. I want speed to be an option, but no longer the requirement that it is now. Because currently, speed means clipping, which means being able to survive in opwars. When clipping is taken out, speed is no longer a default option, but something that will require great skill still to rely on, but will make the game experience much richer for it, by making resist setups, damage setups etc also viable alternatives.
so I would really like to wait until we've seen a sufficient amount of opwars on a clipping free server, before starting on other mechanics. If it turns out we need to change the speed, I'm all for it, but I really hope the development team will wait with that until after a few weeks/months of anti-clipping play.
sorry for repeating myself here. :)
if clipping is not the problem, what is the problem?
Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.2.3 Copyright © 2024 vBulletin Solutions, Inc. All rights reserved.