PDA

View Full Version : Kickstarter campaign



Kirk Lenke
14-03-12, 15:02
I have told you guys before that we are currently evaluating the possibility to raise a kickstarter campaign for a NEOCRON Reloaded.

Just to receive a feedback how much money would you invest?

Jaeon
14-03-12, 15:18
Maybe it would be interesting if you mass emailed everyone that has ever played NC about this.

I bet many of the old players still have hope that NC will be revitalized and updated, they simply don't check the forums anymore.

Brammers
14-03-12, 15:24
Those figures in Euro's?

Also if I remember my currency formats correctly 15,00 means €15 and zero cents? (There will be people who think 15,00 means 1500 :confused: )

Edit: @Jaeon and @Kirk - The THN can mass mail about 2,600 users if you like.

Edit2: What do I get if I say promise 100,00 ? Naming rights to a sector of Techhaven? :D

Kirk Lenke
14-03-12, 15:29
Those figures in Euro's?

Also if I remember my currency formats correctly 15,00 means €15 and zero cents? (There will be people who think 15,00 means 1500 :confused: )

Edit: @Jaeon and @Kirk - The THN can mass mail about 2,600 users if you like.

Good idea, but I just want a sort of indication were all will end up somehow.
Keep the mass email for the latter, when we have the campaign on Kickstarter or something equal. ;)

Cheers
K.

Brammers
14-03-12, 15:32
Good idea, but I just want a sort of indication were all will end up somehow.
Keep the mass email for the latter, when we have the campaign on Kickstarter or something equal. ;)

Cheers
K.

Yes that makes sense. I'll still put a little article on the THN, which will get a few more people looking here, rather than the 1,000's!

Jaeon
14-03-12, 15:59
it's getting exciting now! :D

Biglines
14-03-12, 16:09
This is not this simple to be honest.

I find this a very weird question because the point of a kickstarter campaign is that when it is funded, you are actually able to finish the game, without going insolvent/bankrupt. Kickstarter is not a way to get some money to boost your company, it's a way to fund a certain project. So the question isn't really how much money can you get from us, it's how much is nc:r or nc3 going to cost to make (how much will you be able to get funded by yourself, and how much do you need from a kickstarter campaign). Because once you get the money, you will actually have to be able to finish your promises with that money.

So if you want to start a kickstarter campaign, you need to figure out how much it will cost to fund the project (ncr or neocron3)(minus own investments), and then start a kickstarter campaign. The kickstarter campaign will then either be a success or it wont. If you don't get enough money, nothing is lost, and if you do get enough money, you will have to finish the game that way.

Kickstarter is not a donation or investment system. It is a way to fund a project that, with the kickstarter money WILL be completed.

The state the company is currently in, and the lack of transparency and accountability (at least as far as I can see it, which is arguably very little), I don't trust it enough to invest a lot of money. I would probably invest at least 20 euros at this point (certainly with the right reward tiers), but in case KK manages to convince me they have changed the way they do business, the way they communicate with people and accountability for promises that are and aren't kept, I would be interested in investing far more.

Brammers
14-03-12, 16:23
@Bigline - Kirk is asking how much we are willing to give? What's wrong with a bit of sensible market research, and to gauge interest, before they actually start the Kickstarter campaign properly. (If KK decide to go that way)

As for transparency and accountability, I'm sure KK will set that out as one of their goals in the Kickstarter campaign.

Biglines
14-03-12, 16:31
ye but for what? I have no problem promising that I will have the highest subscription for neocron:reloaded once it comes out.

I just think this poll would be useful only if it gives realistic data on how much people would be willing to pay for what kinds of rewards in the campaign.

Now I realize that there are a few people who would invest in neocron without getting something back, but the large majority of a campaign will be people who will see it as a pre-order that helps make the game.

I don't have job (still a student), so I might be cheap as fuck (comes with being dutch I suppose), but I want to know what I'll get for my money, and be certain that I will actually get it.

Biglines
14-03-12, 16:35
don't get me wrong, I am enthusiastic about a kickstarter campaign and about neocron:reloaded, hell I was the one who originally proposed it after I backed the double-fine kickstarter. But I would want it to be based on proper data, not just empty promises.

CMaster
14-03-12, 16:51
@Biglines - as far as I am aware, there is no guarantee whatsoever that once a kickstarter project gets funded, it will actually get done. Hell, there's nothing stopping somebody setting up a kickstarter and then taking the money and running with it.

Anyway, I'd certainly be hesitant to invest in KK in this way. Their history of delivering, communicating are less than stellar.

I also don't think that Neocron can generate the kind of cash it needs. I'd guess that Neocron Reloaded would cost a substantial amount of money - €1 million wouldn't surprise me. No way is an NC kickstarter going to raise anything like that.

That said, I do think it should be given a go, could well be I'm wrong. And given the right guarantees, I might even chip something in - although no more than €25 or so.

Biglines
14-03-12, 17:03
@Biglines - as far as I am aware, there is no guarantee whatsoever that once a kickstarter project gets funded, it will actually get done. Hell, there's nothing stopping somebody setting up a kickstarter and then taking the money and running with it.
You are right in that there's no guarantee, but from the faq I get the impression that pledging is a form of commerce, and as such there are some consumer protection laws. That said, no idea how that would play out internationally and specifically german laws.

It is however not an Investment, and it's not a Donation.


How do I know a project will be completed as promised?

Each project is crafted solely by its creator, and it’s up to them to make the case that they can successfully bring their project to life. Part of every creator’s job is earning their backers’ trust, especially backers who don’t personally know them.

Creators are encouraged to share links to their personal website(s), as well as any websites that show work related to the project, or past projects.

The web is an excellent resource for learning about someone’s prior experience. If someone has no demonstrable prior history of doing something like their project or is unwilling to share information, backers should consider that when weighing a pledge. If something sounds too good to be true, it very well may be.
Hmm, I hope us forum bastards aren't ruining any chance of a successful kickstarter ;)

Biglines
14-03-12, 17:08
browsing the kickstarter site:


Am I eligible to start a Kickstarter project?
To be eligible to start a Kickstarter project, you need to satisfy the requirements of Amazon Payments:
Be a US resident and at least 18 years of age with a social security number (or EIN), a US bank account, US address, US state-issued ID (driver’s license), and major US credit or debit card.
Please note that anyone, anywhere (with a major credit card) can pledge to Kickstarter projects.
We’re working hard to open up to more countries. If you’ve been waiting, we really appreciate your patience.

won't this be a problem?

Drachenpaladin
14-03-12, 17:09
Tbh, i highly doubt that NC or KK are prominent enough to succeed with kickstarter. A Tim Schafer is, but not yet a Kirk Lenke. :(

Grinny
14-03-12, 17:09
It´s nice to see the ball start rolling! :angel:

Jaeon
14-03-12, 17:10
Hmm, I hope us forum bastards aren't ruining any chance of a successful kickstarter ;)

Solutions are finally showing up. Perhaps we all should make an effort to be positive and have hope that it just might work.

The market of games is totally saturated with fantasy and common sci-fi. NC:R will be a whiff of fresh air because it's unique, and maybe people will see that when joining the kickstart.

elGringo
14-03-12, 17:18
voted [x] 250 - but the truth is ... it largely depends on what NC:R is set out to become. What I have seen so far about NC:R would not win me as a supporter, mainly because there is too little information arround to be able to envision what kind of game NC:R will become.

I love NC and have been a strong supporter for it for more than a decade since the earliest betas... if NC:R is worth funding, it should be easy to pitch it to ppl like me and I'm a fan of direct support via crowdfunding - but it requires a lot more info really - blind trust is not something KK should take for granted after all these years. :)

Chuck Norris
14-03-12, 17:45
Hell ya Kirk thanks for the update, Please ignore brokeass Bigtrolll he will not be donating anything but complaints about EVERYTHING! Id gladly donate 100.00 USD

psychowar
14-03-12, 20:50
[x] 100 € or more depening on the things offered.

I think it is a very good idea. Also I would be interested in how much Kirk thinks would be needed to realize NC:R.

I am excited what the next time brings. As well I am delighted about the communication Kirk does with the community.

William Antrim
14-03-12, 21:05
I would chuck in a few hundred euros. If i can make some more then i will gladly donate more. I am working on something on the ide which might make me some more free money, if it does then I might be able to make a substantial investment.

MadMeleeFreak
14-03-12, 21:06
Also I would be interested in how much Kirk thinks would be needed to realize NC:R.

He already said that they are assuming something around 1.000.000€ costs and 12 month of development time for realizing a revamp (NC:R).

ulx
14-03-12, 21:17
i'd give a hundred €, and definately more if i knew for sure that warping and other network glitches would be a thing from the past in NC:R.
NC always used to be a game where u had to know its glitches to be successfull (by that i dont mean hacking/cheating of any kind)

greetz, ulx

Garfield
14-03-12, 21:33
500 if i get it on paper NC:R will not be f2p, no alts and not more then ONE server

.....100 if above wont happen :D

Biglines
14-03-12, 21:35
i'd give a hundred €, and definately more if i knew for sure that warping and other network glitches would be a thing from the past in NC:R.
NC always used to be a game where u had to know its glitches to be successfull (by that i dont mean hacking/cheating of any kind)

greetz, ulx
exactly, how much I'd pay would really depend on the design goals and a lot more information.

Robert [GS]
14-03-12, 22:10
250,00 € mindestens !!! ;)

MadMeleeFreak
14-03-12, 22:51
exactly, how much I'd pay would really depend on the design goals and a lot more information.

Ultimately this is true for me aswell. Though I based my vote on the assumption of NC being an exact copy of NC 2 featurewise just with anti cheat and working netcode (and of course micropayment based F2P).

I think this vote is a good idea. It's a good indicator to see if the complete production costs can be covered through crowdfunding or if they'd need to get additional investors aboard. Or to see how many people would need to donate to reach the goal based on this vote's average donation amount.

Jaeon
15-03-12, 10:55
I think this post on Kotaku is relevant to the thread:

http://kotaku.com/5893290/10000-worth-of-wasteland-2-is-brought-to-you-by-razer

What about contacting / presenting the pitch to gaming-related companies would be a good way to raise bigger numbers? NVidia, Ati, Razer, Logitech, etc..

silent000
15-03-12, 12:25
I will donate as much as I can possibly afford to the cause. Can't really give a determined figure right now but I will see what my funds are like at the time of the campaign

flib
15-03-12, 18:45
Backers should get first choice on character name reservation! :D
Something like this:
1 name for €25
2 names for €50
4 names for €100
8 names for €250

Mr. Kassad
15-03-12, 19:24
Bei mir kommts auch darauf an:

--> unter 50€, wenn es free2play wird und multi Chars pro Server gibt.

--> 250€ und mehr(!), wenn es KEIN f2p wird und die Server wie MARS sind.

bounty
15-03-12, 19:33
exactly, how much I'd pay would really depend on the design goals and a lot more information.

This sums up my thoughts.

Haven't logged or posted on the forum in years, but have lurked every so often to see what status the game is in.

I'd be willing to donate as little as 25 and as much as 1000 if I had some clue as to what my donation is going towards!

Noldus
15-03-12, 21:41
My definition of investment = buying an asset which can be traded back into money at a later time. This does not sound like a investment but rather a donation.

No matter how much I'd love to see a modern and properly updated version of Neocron, I'd never just hand out any money without knowing anything about the project or the terms/commitment I would recieve in return.

Instead, I'd be happy to donate to the project through some kind of "alpha account" subscription to have the opportunity to at all times download the latest client build and follow the project all the way from scratch. Even from the point where the client application would do nothing but load and show some fancy NC reloaded graphics or whatever.

I don't know if the above is viable or even possible in a client/server based application like this, or how many subscribers this would attract. Just wanted to throw out my opinion...

MrTrip
15-03-12, 22:49
I suppose I'd better say something here...

I see donating to this project a possibility for me, but I wouldn't throw too much at it.

I'll explain how I feel, and this is just how I feel, I don't know about the rest of the community but I really feel cheated...

See, when BP was in works we saw nobody from KK here. There was no official word on anything other than a moderator or two keeping the forums clean. KK pretty much turned their backs on us and moved on, we were just left to flap in the wind. It hurt, seriously hurt. Server populations prove how much it really hurt the community, and when KK got into a bind they came running back to us for support. I'll offer my support and have offered my knowledge but unfortunately that has fallen on deaf ears. A few emails to Kirk and a PM was never responded to and that hurts also.

I have a lot of things to offer the current 2.2 situation and bringing things back to norm, but its always falling on deaf ears.

I'm saddened that it has come down to this, and I'm even sadder that the NC community seems to be a fallback for when all else fails. I'm not saying we should have been top priority, but we should have at least been on the radar... If we couldn't have been on the radar for official KK people, especially for in game events, they should have hired and trained volunteer event gms.

Kirk Lenke
15-03-12, 23:56
I suppose I'd better say something here...

I see donating to this project a possibility for me, but I wouldn't throw too much at it.

I'll explain how I feel, and this is just how I feel, I don't know about the rest of the community but I really feel cheated...

See, when BP was in works we saw nobody from KK here. There was no official word on anything other than a moderator or two keeping the forums clean. KK pretty much turned their backs on us and moved on, we were just left to flap in the wind. It hurt, seriously hurt. Server populations prove how much it really hurt the community, and when KK got into a bind they came running back to us for support. I'll offer my support and have offered my knowledge but unfortunately that has fallen on deaf ears. A few emails to Kirk and a PM was never responded to and that hurts also.

I have a lot of things to offer the current 2.2 situation and bringing things back to norm, but its always falling on deaf ears.

I'm saddened that it has come down to this, and I'm even sadder that the NC community seems to be a fallback for when all else fails. I'm not saying we should have been top priority, but we should have at least been on the radar... If we couldn't have been on the radar for official KK people, especially for in game events, they should have hired and trained volunteer event gms.

Well in general without all reasons at hand I would 100% agree, but there have been reasons why we couldn't do ANYTHING!

Your PM hasn't been not read, I have read it and just read it again and for sure we can have a call but currently we have a heavy workload here trying to get things right and clean up the mess we have produced internally.

Sorry but still I have to focus on my team in 1st place, if you would be an employee here you would like that too I guess. And beside finding a proper solution for all the folks I have here I try share ideas as good as I can with you. Please understand that I have NO private life atm and when I get things right here it worth not seeing my wife or my kids...

so be patient please and i would never ever expect that someone puts even a cent into the project when we get it started on kickstarter without delivering a proper content or better reasons why someone could/should invest something.

The reason I have raised this poll was that I am curious how many people are still reading the forums and beside this how many of them would take in regard to may invest something.

if the kickstarter fails, well we all know that neocron is dead don't we. so we try our best to not let it fail.

I can only apologize for not answering your PM but we can have a chat next week.

cheers
K.

aKe`cj
15-03-12, 23:58
If we couldn't have been on the radar for official KK people, especially for in game events, they should have hired and trained volunteer event gms.


The sad truth is, that EGM activities alone would not have had a great impact on the decline. The critical mass needed to keep NC a vibrant gameworld and playing experience was lacking well before the ingame events were cut back. Beating a dead horse stays just that, even when you throw confetti in the air, blow a whistle and write a short about it.

However, I totally agree with you, that KK (as a company as well as the faces associated with it) are no longer in a position to expect the community to put blind trust and faith in them. That's what I said in some other post and I strongly believe that they have to come up with a reasonable pitch for NC:R as well as take transparency to a new level to win broad support.

That said, KK could be the devil and if it need be done to sell my soul to them to get a kickass NC successor, I'd probably go for it - because my love for NC far exceeds the caused grief (cheesy as it sounds) :p

MrTrip
16-03-12, 00:22
Well in general without all reasons at hand I would 100% agree, but there have been reasons why we couldn't do ANYTHING!

Your PM hasn't been not read, I have read it and just read it again and for sure we can have a call but currently we have a heavy workload here trying to get things right and clean up the mess we have produced internally.

Sorry but still I have to focus on my team in 1st place, if you would be an employee here you would like that too I guess. And beside finding a proper solution for all the folks I have here I try share ideas as good as I can with you. Please understand that I have NO private life atm and when I get things right here it worth not seeing my wife or my kids...

so be patient please and i would never ever expect that someone puts even a cent into the project when we get it started on kickstarter without delivering a proper content or better reasons why someone could/should invest something.

The reason I have raised this poll was that I am curious how many people are still reading the forums and beside this how many of them would take in regard to may invest something.

if the kickstarter fails, well we all know that neocron is dead don't we. so we try our best to not let it fail.

I can only apologize for not answering your PM but we can have a chat next week.

cheers
K.


Understood, completely understood trust me. I'm patient, just kind of wondering where things are going. Take the time you need to get things organized internally, and its good that you are placing a high priority on your team. I'd love to work for somebody who puts me first and makes sure I keep my job, so I applaud you for that.

Biglines
16-03-12, 01:10
if the kickstarter fails, well we all know that neocron is dead don't we.
Why?

it just means you couldn't convince enough people to trust you for longer than a year. Or that the proposal you put up in a kickstarter would be unwanted by the people.

For example a kickstarter for a f2p game will most likely not work very well, even though a f2p neocron could be wildly successful. You could however try a normal investment drive where people actually invest in the game (instead of the funding system of kickstarter).

Jaeon
16-03-12, 12:13
Sorry but still I have to focus on my team in 1st place, if you would be an employee here you would like that too I guess. And beside finding a proper solution for all the folks I have here I try share ideas as good as I can with you. Please understand that I have NO private life atm and when I get things right here it worth not seeing my wife or my kids...

so be patient please and i would never ever expect that someone puts even a cent into the project when we get it started on kickstarter without delivering a proper content or better reasons why someone could/should invest something.

if the kickstarter fails, well we all know that neocron is dead don't we. so we try our best to not let it fail.

cheers
K.

Managing a team and a project while expected to present results can put alot of pressure on someone.

It's important to have the past in account and learn from what went wrong, and then focus on what's to come.

I really don't think that a failed kickstarter defines if Neocron is dead or not.

As of right now, neocron lives, even if in a life support machine, supported by you.

With all the material you guys have, all the feedback from the players, i truly believe that if somehow you secure that initial investment to update NC to a good engine and fix all the major problems with it - it will succeed where it once failed.

To us players - there's no point being butthurt about how KK managed or didn't manage the game. It happened and sadly lead to this point.

But where there's a will, there's a way. With a good pitch maybe a good publisher out there is willing to finance the project.

I also think that some sacrifices will have to be made in order for the game to work in today's MMO expectations / requirements. If the game only appeals to a very select few, then either those players are rich (like the case of Project Entropia / Planet Calypso) or how is it supposed to make money?

And by this i don't mean take NC and make it into WoW or LoL - i mean that some game mechanics and design must be adapted and revised so people can easily get into the game. For example: I remember when i first joined NC, i was so close to quitting since i really didn't like the gameplay on the first few hours and how it felt compared to the other games.

People had to learn to love NC - which is fine, but it's an effort the player had to make from the beggining. Well i think that when a product relies on their consumer's own effort in order to be successful, then something is wrong or out of place. Especially nowadays, with our society being so "instant" and wanting things to happen so fast, without having to put too much effort into things.

A good pitch to a good publisher would be to focus on how the game is going to capture people's attention, how they will want to play it, and most important, how it's supposed to profit - afterall any publisher's priority is to make money.

And if that displeases the hardcore fans, well, like i said, it's a sacrifice they have to be willing to make, since money won't come out of thin air if the kickstarter doesn't work.

It's better to have that then no NC at all, i suppose.

MadMeleeFreak
16-03-12, 13:15
It's better to have that then no NC at all, i suppose.

Depends on how drastic such changes would be. The thing is there is not much room for change without essentialy changing what NC is (in which case getting that crippled version is the same as having no NC at all). Some of the things that may drive away newcomers are actually what makes NC stand apart from the rest, like taking the risk to be killed almost anywhere at anytime when removing the LE. Staying in that example a change that would be accepted by most hardcore fans I guess would be to change how the LE works in detail: LE-wearers can join clans, mixed teams are possible and it get's a seperate slot in trade LE does not protect you in Outposts. The borderline at level 30 remains, taking it out above is a final decision.

Also to ease up the start through getting new players in touch with veterans faster and easier the starter MC 5 should be removed alltogether in trade the tutorial get's mandatory upon the first character and get's expanded by some explanation of how the LE works aswell as how the chat works. First stop after tutorial are Plaza 1 or Pepper Park (depending on faction). To explain this: The starter MC 5 area will exactly like the first time around become a overcrowded place in the first days, thus produce all sorts of connection issues and waiting lines to do the runs from those NPCs there. After that beginning time it will be a lonely place with noone to be found but those NPCs that present you faulty and incomplete information in seemingly endless texts (75% of gamers nowadays don't read that stuff anymore, it just get's clicked through and abandoned places in MMOs leave a bad first impression). Caused by it's complexity and freedom of choice there is no good way to learn the ropes in NC but from other more experienced players acting as tutors of sorts so do all newcommers a favor and put them near those friendly people right away.

This is off-topic here sorry, but had to answer.

To say something on-topic: Obviously there aren't that many people left reading these forums. The good news though is. Those 80 people would get you 10000€ so you'd only need roughly 100 times that number to reach a goal of 1000000€. Let's say you'd need about 12000 to 15000 donors. That would be 6% of the 250000 people that played neocron over the past years. So contacting those via their E-Mails which you still have should be first step when launching the campaign.

Anti-Cheating measures, good netcode and refilled servers (though they come with the catch that it is F2P) is what quite a number of those gone allways wanted.

Jaeon
16-03-12, 14:56
This is off-topic here sorry, but had to answer.



Well, it does add up to the reasons NC became empty and people wouldn't keep coming in, so it's relevant IMO.

I still think that formulating a plan on what's going to change in NC in order to make it profitable is essential.

MadMeleeFreak
16-03-12, 16:07
I still think that formulating a plan on what's going to change in NC in order to make it profitable is essential.

Agreed. Taking in regard what Biglines, MrTrip and some others said, it is very crucial that what is planned for NC:R is layed out in as much detail as possible (especialy regarding the micropayment and the optional subscription) at the time the kickstarter campaign is started, if one is started.

phunqe
16-03-12, 17:06
May I suggest using your Facebook page (clean it up if deemed necessary)?

If people start reposting and liking your news and information posts we'll have them reach the whole internet in no time! :D

Especially this kickstarter poll, unless it would cause you some kind of legal predicament having it in public like that.

EDIT: I saw your save Reakktor facebook page now. Albeit a step in the right direction for the company to get the word out, using the original page to post information on Neocron and related projects would do the most impact in my opinion :)

Biglines
16-03-12, 17:09
May I suggest using your Facebook page (clean it up if deemed necessary)?

If people start reposting and liking your news and information posts we'll have them reach the whole internet in no time! :D

Especially this kickstarter poll, unless it would cause you some kind of legal predicament having it in public like that.
tbh I'd suggest a poll on facebook itself then, instead of linking to here, no need to have them combined.

and tnx madmeleefreak for taking my post as intended.

phunqe
16-03-12, 17:13
tbh I'd suggest a poll on facebook itself then, instead of linking to here, no need to have them combined.

and tnx madmeleefreak for taking my post as intended.

Yeah, I was actually thinking of having the information posts and polls directly on Facebook, with perhaps a secondary linking to here. The information should be available directly on Facebook so we all can share/like it to get the word out.
Basically noone who doesn't have an account on these forums is going to register just to perhaps express a quick opinion etc.
Even if you can read without registering, you know how lazy the internet generation is :p

Biglines
16-03-12, 17:17
Yeah, I was actually thinking of having the information posts and polls directly on Facebook, with perhaps a secondary linking to here. The information should be available directly on Facebook so we all can share/like it to get the word out.
Basically noone who doesn't have an account on these forums is going to register just to perhaps express a quick opinion etc.
Even if you can read without registering, you know how lazy the internet generation is :p
afaik you need to have an nc account to register on here (at least to post), so ye, fb would be better for this sort of thing. Plus it removes a lot of anonymity so people troll less.

Model192
16-03-12, 19:09
Go F2P. Make people pay for char slots/apartments/faction changes/instant gratification shit.

Game = Funded at that point.

Biglines
16-03-12, 19:23
Go F2P. Make people pay for char slots/apartments/faction changes/instant gratification shit.

Game = Funded at that point.
While I agree a proper neocron reloaded would pay for itself once completed and properly f2p (not like BP), this does not mean KK/Nukklear have the money to actually build the game in the first place.

Strife
16-03-12, 19:24
Rather see a F2P Nc2 in the meantime.

Danae
16-03-12, 19:54
Rather see a F2P Nc2 in the meantime.


So log in? :P

MrTrip
16-03-12, 20:04
So log in? :P

Allow me to uh........rephrase his post



Rather see a F2P Nc2 in the meantime where we can create new accounts without having to gamble with buying a box version of Neocron 2 only find out the cdkey has been used and now I can't create an account and I just spend $10-$15-$100 on this Neocron game that I can't even create an account for.

Model192
16-03-12, 21:42
While I agree a proper neocron reloaded would pay for itself once completed and properly f2p (not like BP), this does not mean KK/Nukklear have the money to actually build the game in the first place.

They would if they went f2p model with people from the community helping to build.

Chuck Norris
16-03-12, 22:30
I just got three other ex rl friend players to committ 100.00USD also. They love kick start campaigns, they were in the ground floor with minecraft and they are sick of the bloatware EA spams out.

I think youll get a lot of support from gamers if you try and do your own thing rather then seeking corp overlord funding

William Antrim
17-03-12, 14:23
Here is an idea. Ask people pay to pay X amount towards the campaign to keep their players names/accounts. Say a nominal amount of money - 50 euros per account or something like that. Its not a huge amount of money for most people but it is instant cash and the amount of time and effort most people have invested in their accounts I would expect them to want to keep them.


if they dont want to keep them then give them the option to start from scratch. If they do decide they want to port their accounts then perhaps have a limit to the items/money that can be transferred. Like the NC2 overhaul did.

But most importantly make ALL of it completely clear (consent screens on sign up if needed) to peeps when they are handing over their money.

Mr_Snow
17-03-12, 14:37
A lot more info is needed.

I would be willing to give money towards this, probably €50 to €100 at first, but I would need to know what is the estimated cost of the project, what are the goals i.e. is it a complete update update of NC1 or is it going to move towards a more mainstream MMO style and plenty more beside this.

I am not the sort of person that thinks giving money to a kickstarter gives me the right to dictate the games developement path but before I donate money I would have to feel that I am giving money to something worthwhile.

With most kickstarters you are basically buying the game before the developement starts but with an MMO release is just the beginning so we would need to know more info as to what happens when the game is released and how it is released.

Tolots
17-03-12, 17:45
After a short consideration i was suprised by myself but i would donate 250 Euro for a Neocron Reloaded without knowing too much where it goes.

I will also not link my Donation to any therms and conditions towards KK because if too manny people want their options inside the project it hurt more than it help and make keeping promises difficult.

The Message that Nc is death aswell as KK if the Kickstarter Project fails is aknowledged. NuKKlear would probably focus on other projects for other platforms in order to survive and make monney.

Neocron is "Death" for manny years now, i doubt a Kickstarter campain will raise the funds needed to make it happen. However if a Company can collect some cash and have no obligations in return a potential investor might go for it because he dont have to fund the game 100% but reap the full revenue. This make me sound like an idiot, donating monney to make someone else rich and get nothing in return. However, i get maybe a game i like and i spend so much monney on useless things that a failed neocron reloaded would just add a little peak of a evergrowing mountain of useless stuff i throw my monney at. Something i can live with.

Strife
18-03-12, 01:26
So log in? :P
I mean an actual Free-to-play system so new people can join, and population can go double digits :P

flib
18-03-12, 04:50
I mean an actual Free-to-play system so new people can join, and population can go double digits :P
That's the point of NCR.

General Crazy
18-03-12, 07:59
I would love to see Neocron come back from the dead.

But this is the questions that pop into my head first off.

1. Like how much is needed to pay off all of the outstanding debts.

2. What kind of production time frame are you looking at? What are your projected operating and development costs.

3. A solid plan on improvements as well as what direction you plan to take Neocron in terms of content, PvP, and PvE levelling. Also any major charges or removal of things currently in Neocron that would make it more stable or just improve game play.

4. Cost of running servers, bug fixing and releasing new content for Neocron for the first year of after the official re-release.

5. What kind of payment model would you be re-releasing Neocron with?

But most importantly I would want to know that KK is committed to seeing Neocron becoming the product it deserves to be and that they have some kind of plan not to end up back in Insolvency again

MadMeleeFreak
18-03-12, 09:06
I would love to see Neocron come back from the dead.

But this is the questions that pop into my head first off.


Some of this was already answered during the last two months.



1. Like how much is needed to pay off all of the outstanding debts.


As far as I understood there aren't outstanding debts luckily (at least not much). It's just that revenues for KK dropped to the point of no more being able to pay ongoing costs (employee salaries, rent for office and so on...). No guarantees though this is just what I read between the lines, ther was no official statement on this whatsoever beyond the fact that Reakktor is again insolvent.

As far as I know the details aren't subject to public disclosure anyways as soon as the insolvency starts, but I'm no expert in that either.



2. What kind of production time frame are you looking at? What are your projected operating and development costs.


For the project discussed here (Neocron Realoded: A revamp of NC1/NC2 using the old assets on a new engine, namely the unity engine) the "Nukklear.com" page aswell as Kirk himself stated that they project a development cycle of 12 month and about 1000000€ costs. (At least these are the numbers that we were told here the past weeks)



3. A solid plan on improvements as well as what direction you plan to take Neocron in terms of content, PvP, and PvE levelling. Also any major charges or removal of things currently in Neocron that would make it more stable or just improve game play.


Beyond the change from Tekktonic to Unity engine (and with it a complete rewrite of the game code including the network stuff) not much details are known. It's all a bit vague yet. They plan to take the best from NC1 and NC 2. Taking this and the relatively short projected development cycle into regard I guess it's safe to say that core gameplay will stay as it is and only details are subject to change.



4. Cost of running servers, bug fixing and releasing new content for Neocron for the first year of after the official re-release.


Not known yet. I guess that's the minor problem. You don't need heavy hardware to run the game. And needed support personel will depend on number of players so I guess even KK doesn't have more than very imprecise guesses on that point. Anyways right know it's one step at a time.

Again reading between the lines, the air is getting pretty thin for Reakktor this time around as they don't have a potential AAA game in the pipe. Getting that NC Realoded thing going seems to be the last option, so getting the development funded is top priority now. If that's settled they have 12 month to breath and take look at the costs for running and supporting the game post-release.



5. What kind of payment model would you be re-releasing Neocron with?


The Plan (as known to us yet) is a release as Free to Play with Micropayment and optional subscription. Details of this are subject to discussion as of now as nothing has been officially stated.



But most importantly I would want to know that KK is committed to seeing Neocron becoming the product it deserves to be and that they have some kind of plan not to end up back in Insolvency again

I guess there is no guarantee to not end up in insolvency again, kinda comes with focusing on the MMO market I guess, or games in general for this matter. If people don't like what you did for whatever reason you're kinda screwed. Though I think if the kickstarter plan works out allowing them to make NC:R without the need for publishers/investors and release it on their own it at least has the potential to create enough revenue to start working on NC 3 and get aboard investors for that.

There obviously were/are plans for NC 3. There are no further details known but what I could gather from satements that were made by Gamigo officials when the news about the insolvency made the round is this: Reakktor was in progressed negotiations with potential partners (or just one?) to develop and release a subscription based game (most likely NC 3, taking into regard the "kind of" announcement made by Kirk by the end of 2010), which was the reason for Gamigo and Reakktor to part ways.

Nothing further is known but obviously no deal was made so Reakktor ended up with no project funds but a complete development staff. The honesty and frequenzy in which Kirk posted during this last few weeks along with the fact that he obviously paid the NC servers himself (from his personal money) for several of the past years shows that they definetly care a lot about the franchise and would love make NC the product it deserves to be all that's missing is the money. And we all know how freely those that have the money give it away to "niche" projects without a history of at least one widely succesful prequel nowadays (though none of us like this, but NC 1/2 definetly did not play in that league even though it was succesful according to the numbers published on the Nukklear page).

Kamuix99
18-03-12, 15:27
I don't know why people actually throw around with F2P all the time. It's clear that such business models are either made out of despair in an last resort to delay the inevitable, or for trashgames with short Half-Life - feeding the masses before they lose interest.

It's also clear what kind of customers come around. Beside the small amount of die-hard fans, there is a majority who don't care a dann bout the game and quite a number of human trash which you DON'T want to have in your game!

An subscription, even if just 5 Euros per month, is worth the efforts of the developers and won't break the budget of reasonable players who are actually interested in the game. This is the path where we should go. An F2P NC-R is an emergency state to prevent worse things, but for a real future we have to think of a subbed NC.

Fact

William Antrim
18-03-12, 16:04
I don't know why people actually throw around with F2P all the time. It's clear that such business models are either made out of despair in an last resort to delay the inevitable, or for trashgames with short Half-Life - feeding the masses before they lose interest.

It's also clear what kind of customers come around. Beside the small amount of die-hard fans, there is a majority who don't care a dann bout the game and quite a number of human trash which you DON'T want to have in your game!

An subscription, even if just 5 Euros per month, is worth the efforts of the developers and won't break the budget of reasonable players who are actually interested in the game. This is the path where we should go. An F2P NC-R is an emergency state to prevent worse things, but for a real future we have to think of a subbed NC.

Fact


I think you meant a short shelf life, rather than Half Life which even today is far from shit.

The rest of your points are more than valid however. I think (hate making these analogies) following something like Blizzards strategy and business model is worth a look. It worked for them. As long as it is scaled down it should work hopefully.

Biglines
18-03-12, 16:26
Kamiux, why do you hate f2p so much? Did it cost you a job or something? because you seem almost fanatical about the way you ignore simple facts (actual hard facts, not opinions or conclusions) and seem to generalize every bad f2p to all f2p's (granted the majority of f2p's is crap, but this is true for p2p too, and isn't really related to the businessmodel but to the game itself).

I'm not attacking you here, I am genuinely wondering why you are so incredibly anti-f2p. Have you even played any of the good f2p's (ie. LoL, GA, CC, APB, Eve etc)? or are you just inferring from seeing things like maplestory and other koreans f2p's?

also you need to look up the definition of the word fact.

Drachenpaladin
18-03-12, 16:34
because you seem almost fanatical about the way you ignore simple facts [..]

Not especially about f2p only... its just generally stubbornness. He acted the same way with Kirks silence...

General Crazy
18-03-12, 16:37
Some of this was already answered during the last two months.

Yeah I know some things have been hinted at, but you kind of missed the point I was trying to get across. What I want to see is something detailed from KK on what they are planning.


I have told you guys before that we are currently evaluating the possibility to raise a kickstarter campaign for a NEOCRON Reloaded.

Just to receive a feedback how much money would you invest?

A kickstarter is not just simply asking for money. A kickstarter is basically taking a business proposal as to the mass public to fund it instead of taking it to investors. Let people know you have a solid grasp of what you need, what you are going to do, and how you plan to do it.

Kirk just fyi the forums here are a perfect place to practice and refine your pitch for a Kickstarter. Kirk you just need to give the community and the world something that says have a plan and that you can make it happen.




The Plan (as known to us yet) is a release as Free to Play with Micropayment and optional subscription. Details of this are subject to discussion as of now as nothing has been officially stated.

This is something I like to hear more about in detail on how they plan to handle Micro-payments if this is the way they plan to go. I am not of fan of current F2P models out there, but at the same time there is a lot of room for improvement on the F2P models currently being used.


I guess there is no guarantee to not end up in insolvency again, kinda comes with focusing on the MMO market I guess, or games in general for this matter.

I not going to say it may not happen but I hate to see people put up funding and a lot of work go into development and then it happens because the costs and scope of the project was not grasped properly from the start.


***
I don't know how others feel, but Neocron was my first MMO game. I have a lot of great memories from it, and me and my best friend still talk about some of the stuff we enjoyed in Neocron; usually over coffee at least once a month. I want to see Neocron make a return to it's glory days.
Thing may not of worked out the way they where planned before but here the perfect time to get a second chance to do things right.

Biglines
18-03-12, 16:56
Not especially about f2p only... its just generally stubbornness. He acted the same way with Kirks silence...
Hmm, that's just attacking his personality. I was genuinely asking what he is basing his "facts" on, which f2p's he's played or which they were based on. I mean his insistence on ignoring economic facts is one thing.

Especially this weird thing where free to play means people aren't proud of the game they make. The whole point of a good f2p game is that you actually are so proud of your game, you are convinced people will pay for it even though they don't have to, if only they find out about the game.

neocron/KK will never be able to get the funding to be able to start a media campaign such as blizzard and EA use to get people to play their games, so they have to depend on people actually playing the game and getting their friends and communities to join. This is what free to play games are based on.

Of course they will have to do it properly, because most microtransaction games out there are bad economically, socially and gameplay wise. But a freemium system (free to play basic game, subscription based longterm play), incorporates the advantages of a p2p game with the advantages of f2p.

Jaeon
18-03-12, 17:27
Of course they will have to do it properly, because most microtransaction games out there are bad economically, socially and gameplay wise. But a freemium system (free to play basic game, subscription based longterm play), incorporates the advantages of a p2p game with the advantages of f2p.

True, and agreed.

I don't see a problem with such a system - in fact, it's easy to experiment and join the game if it's F2P, and then once people are set, if the subscription's fee is not too high, it becomes P2P.

All the while with a shop for items, upgrades, characters, etc.

Seems quite logic tbh.

Kamuix99
18-03-12, 17:57
Wiliam> I used half-life in this context for a good reason. As IMHO these games offer a toxic enviroment and deteriorate over time, harming the industry and the players. I don't know any sane company or market that puts effort into producing something and then give it away for free at start (with the exception for drugs probably, but that's another story)


Biglines> I stated it before, F2P is an attack to the gaming market and disobeys any human sense of effort vs profit. You can only make profits via Cash Shop by either offering all kind of clothing stuff etc. or on a PVP-oriented base make it Pay-2-Win. It may work in China or Korea with an playerbase known for gathering all they can, as it's their primary hobby. In Europe at least, people expect solid gameplay, support and continous developement. That's the reason why EVE Online in example became successfull and prospering still in a niche.

I wonder about your definition of "Good F2P" actually. What makes an F2P good? These games you mention are around since mostly 2010. They fall perfectly into the descriptions above. Global Agenda and All Points Bulletin even startet out as normal subscription but then had been taken over for squeezing out the last drop, before they get dumped.

Subscriber games as World of Warcraft or Eve Online haven been around since 2004/2003. I'm not standing alone with my opinion about F2P-trash. Also the gaming industry slowly seems to awake from their long slumber, as you can see in this interview (http://www.gamespot.com/news/namco-bandai-free-to-play-cant-be-high-quality-6348762). Along with that, here's an intersting vid about how gaming industry are using their numbers (http://www.slideshare.net/bcousins/paying-to-win)

Now don't get me wrong, I'm not demanding that KK have to launch their overworked game as P2P (if they can launch it that is). Kirk and probably the people around Nukklear decide on their business model, and from todays point of view, an overworked game can help win back Players interest into the Neocron world for now and for the future. If it goes that way, all is fine. However, the point is, the Devs at Reakktor invest their time and effort into making games. They want to make money and if possible also see their own work flourish and bloom. The best and most solid way of doing so for an future possible Necocron 3 i.e. is an P2P approach which will ensure steady income for steady support and steady service for the player community. An F2P CAN'T do this, at it all depends on how many things are bought in cash shop and if that lacks, Devs need to create more incentive to buy there -> greater bonus from cash shop items -> Players with cash shop items are in advantage -> P2W.


Drachenpaladin> By now you should have realized that people in the English Forums didn't share the unquestioned loyality to Kirk. What you call stubbornness, other people call a principle.

If it were not for Loki and others, neither you nor anyone else may have had any answers from Kirk - cause they would have never been asked. Without people in the English forum making pressure to Kirk and KK, there wouldn't be this state of information that we have today. I think it's time that you realize, "stubbornness" pays out sometimes ;)

Biglines
18-03-12, 19:48
I don't know any sane company or market that puts effort into producing something and then give it away for free at start (with the exception for drugs probably, but that's another story)

Newspapers, facebook (quickest growing company? how many billions based on free stuff?), twitter, every news site out there, google (for a while quickest growing company in the world), youtube, free music festivals, spotify, television (the networks, not the providers), Play station 3 and xbox 360 (sold at a huge loss).


Biglines> I stated it before, F2P is an attack to the gaming market and disobeys any human sense of effort vs profit. You can only make profits via Cash Shop by either offering all kind of clothing stuff etc. or on a PVP-oriented base make it Pay-2-Win. It may work in China or Korea with an playerbase known for gathering all they can, as it's their primary hobby. In Europe at least, people expect solid gameplay, support and continous developement. That's the reason why EVE Online in example became successfull and prospering still in a niche.
First off, Eve online is a free to play game. 50% of the players I know that play eve online never pay a cent. Just because their business model doesn't fit the most common f2p model, doesn't mean it's not f2p.

second, your assertion that you can only make a profit via pay to win or pay for clothes is incomplete. Yes they are completely viable ways to make money (as your example of battlefield heroes proves), but as GA, CC and APB prove, subscription sells just as well. GA and CC for example, have no pay to win mechanics. Their only payment items are convenience boosters, and guns that can be easily obtained through normal play. Yet both of them are very profitable.

Your own link to the battlefield heroes video even states specifically that free to play is one of EA's most profitable games in specifically europe....



I wonder about your definition of "Good F2P" actually. What makes an F2P good? These games you mention are around since mostly 2010. They fall perfectly into the descriptions above. Global Agenda and All Points Bulletin even startet out as normal subscription but then had been taken over for squeezing out the last drop, before they get dumped.

League of Legends by all accounts is a good f2p game. Eve online is one as well, then there are the Global Agenda, CrimeCraft and APB, while not up to snuff to a lot of other games, are very entertaining and certainly better than a lot of the p2p crap that comes out from AAA publishers like EA.

Global agenda was never normal subscription. It was also never taken over by another company, because it was always profitable. They started out with a business model where people could play for free, and only organized clan vs clan play cost money. Afterwards they switched to subscription, which dropped their revenues, after which they switched to f2p which made them about 10x as much revenue as before.


Subscriber games as World of Warcraft or Eve Online haven been around since 2004/2003. I'm not standing alone with my opinion about F2P-trash. Also the gaming industry slowly seems to awake from their long slumber, as you can see in this interview (http://www.gamespot.com/news/namco-bandai-free-to-play-cant-be-high-quality-6348762). Along with that, here's an intersting vid about how gaming industry are using their numbers (http://www.slideshare.net/bcousins/paying-to-win)

The first link you posted is just one person, from a company that has nothing to do with MMO's, even mostly single player games, without so much as a reference to anything supporting his claim.

The second one actually shows how of the 3 million people playing battlefield heroes, less than 2 percent complained, of which most kept playing, and which shows how even an apparently unpopular way for f2p (pay to win), is shown by actual players to actually be more popular.


Now don't get me wrong, I'm not demanding that KK have to launch their overworked game as P2P (if they can launch it that is). Kirk and probably the people around Nukklear decide on their business model, and from todays point of view, an overworked game can help win back Players interest into the Neocron world for now and for the future. If it goes that way, all is fine. However, the point is, the Devs at Reakktor invest their time and effort into making games. They want to make money and if possible also see their own work flourish and bloom. The best and most solid way of doing so for an future possible Necocron 3 i.e. is an P2P approach which will ensure steady income for steady support and steady service for the player community. An F2P CAN'T do this, at it all depends on how many things are bought in cash shop and if that lacks, Devs need to create more incentive to buy there -> greater bonus from cash shop items -> Players with cash shop items are in advantage -> P2W.
It might be your english, but for some reason you seem to be arguing completely against all the sources you posted, as well as the links I posted. First you quote some posts that say that f2p is very profitable. Then you come back and say p2p is the only way KK can make money.

Then you link to APB and say they only switched to f2p after their p2p had failed, which again supports the notion that f2p is easier to make profitable than p2p. This part of your post is so incredibly flawed logic wise...

The point here is that whether a game is of high or low quality has absolutely nothing to do with whether or not it is free to play or pay to play. A game is either good or bad, there are waaaay more bad p2p games than f2p games. The difference is that f2p generally tend to survive even if they are bad (most gamigo games), where p2p games crash and burn (tabula rasa for example).

Then there is the issue that the f2p aspect of it can be done badly (like in BP) gameplay wise, reasonably unpopularly (like in BF:heroes), or reasonably good (like CC, GA, APB), or very good, like in League of legends and Eve online.



Drachenpaladin> By now you should have realized that people in the English Forums didn't share the unquestioned loyality to Kirk. What you call stubbornness, other people call a principle.

If it were not for Loki and others, neither you nor anyone else may have had any answers from Kirk - cause they would have never been asked. Without people in the English forum making pressure to Kirk and KK, there wouldn't be this state of information that we have today. I think it's time that you realize, "stubbornness" pays out sometimes ;).
I don't think you'll say I'm an unquestioning kirk-loyalist.. but there's a difference between persistence and stubbornness :p I have always thought a lot of the discussions you and I were involved in were completely counter productive, and sometimes tended to go way too much towards stupid mulish behaviour (also on our part). One of the main reasons I put in the summary of all those questions was to stop all the bickering.

General Crazy
18-03-12, 20:01
Since people seems to be at odds when it comes to F2P this is just some of my own thoughts on the flaws in the F2P model and some ideas how it would work better with a subscription based model:

I know F2P in it's core i design is a great way of getting people to try a new game because it doesn't cost them anything just to try it and get enjoy it.

But it does has a few major flaws in the use of the Item Shop design.

1. Exclusive Items that give advantages over other players. Which also take away from the feeling players get from working hard at the game to achieve rare and powerful items in game.
2. Added grinding/delays so they can market EXP and other Boosters.
3. Locking character slots/classes, vaults/bags, other skills, and in-game chat channels just to make you purchase them on the Item Shop.
4. New content development goes into stuff for the Item Shop and not the game itself.
5. Makes players feel like games is less about skill and more about how deep your pockets are.

These are just a few key points.

Here are a few ideas to maybe help with the Item Shop Problems that can change be solved with a subscription.

1. Make it so subscribers get exclusive currency drops that can be used to purchase everything available in the item shops.
2. Add small amounts of exculsive content areas and loot that can only be picked up by a subscriber.
3. Make variable lenght subscriptions for people who maybe want to be a subsciber and have access to the exclusive content and get the exclusive currency drops but do not play enough to pay for a full month at a time.

Eg. 1 Day subscription $2, 2 Consecutive Days $3, 4 Days $4, 1 Week $5, 2 Weeks $9, and 4 Weeks $12 ( just some random figures for example purpose. and sorry I use dollars instead of euros as it is just easier for me as a canadian)

So customer start off with subscription for a day at $2, they like it so much they they deside the next day they want it for another day well instead of paying another $2 the system only charges them the difference of $1. So 3 days go by customer doesn't get time to play. But on the 6th day comes back plays for 2 more days as a subscriber, since he has already payed $3 in that week already he only gets charged $2 for the 6th day to equal the total amount of one week of $5.
In the second week he ends up only playing the 2rd, 4th and 6th days in a row which would normal cost $2 each or reduced to $5 for the week gets reduced even more to $4 or $9 overall total for 2 Weeks of game time.

I am not sure if that makes sense to others, it basically lets you pay for just what you play without being charged more for the same thing in the long run as you would paying for a larger amount of time upfront.

Some people just don't like paying for time they may never use.

Also make it so the subscription had to be activated again once the current block runs out since some people may only want to log in to check in with friends some days but don't have time to play or want access to the subscriber only content.


***
Just a few other flaws that tend to be common with most MMO's games but usually more noticable in F2P games.

1. Over populated/laggy servers.
2. Advertising/Spam
3. Bots
4. Poor/Unanswered game support.

Iceflower
18-03-12, 21:00
[x] 100 € minimum and in any case, maybe more once more information is available. Good luck! :)

Kamuix99
18-03-12, 21:42
Newspapers, facebook (quickest growing company? how many billions based on free stuff?), twitter, every news site out there, google (for a while quickest growing company in the world), youtube, free music festivals, spotify, television (the networks, not the providers), Play station 3 and xbox 360 (sold at a huge loss).

Most of these are not free but get their money by commercials. Facebook has an immense worth by selling the informations that people provide every day in their blocks - before you had to do market research, nowadays it's enough to ask Facebook for an customiized data analysis.


First off, Eve online is a free to play game. 50% of the players I know that play eve online never pay a cent. Just because their business model doesn't fit the most common f2p model, doesn't mean it's not f2p.

EVE Online is P2P (http://support.eveonline.com/Pages/KB/Article.aspx?id=21) with an optional PLEX on the CCP Store. Gamers can buy those PLEXes in the EVE store and sell them for ingame money (ISK) to other players. I played EVE Online long enough :)



second, your assertion that you can only make a profit via pay to win or pay for clothes is incomplete. Yes they are completely viable ways to make money (as your example of battlefield heroes proves), but as GA, CC and APB prove, subscription sells just as well. GA and CC for example, have no pay to win mechanics. Their only payment items are convenience boosters, and guns that can be easily obtained through normal play. Yet both of them are very profitable.

Is that your opinion or the official statements of the respective companies? I define profitable by a company doing business on their own and receive more money then they invest on the long run, without getting backed from China or Korea. Yet these games still have to prove that they'll be doing fine and we'll see if they are still around in 1 or 2 years - like WoW or EVE already did.


Your own link to the battlefield heroes video even states specifically that free to play is one of EA's most profitable games in specifically europe....

The first link you posted is just one person, from a company that has nothing to do with MMO's, even mostly single player games, without so much as a reference to anything supporting his claim.

I find it interesting that the second link for you is showing EAs profits, while the first one is just a claim. How come that Namco Bandai doesn't know what they are talking about, while EA does? Isn't it rather, that your wish was the father of thought?



League of Legends by all accounts is a good f2p game. Eve online is one as well, then there are the Global Agenda, CrimeCraft and APB, while not up to snuff to a lot of other games, are very entertaining and certainly better than a lot of the p2p crap that comes out from AAA publishers like EA.

Global agenda was never normal subscription. It was also never taken over by another company, because it was always profitable. They started out with a business model where people could play for free, and only organized clan vs clan play cost money. Afterwards they switched to subscription, which dropped their revenues, after which they switched to f2p which made them about 10x as much revenue as before.

By what accounts is Leage of Legends a good F2P game? By yours i assume.
EVE Online ain't no F2P as i clarified before. In which way you enjoy Global Agenda, Crime Craft or All Points Bulletin is all your private business, and not necessarily meet the taste of others. Now why EA produces P2P crap, while before they are so successfull with Battelefield Heroes?

On Global Agenda the Wikipedia article (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_Agenda) is misleading. The game went F2P in 2011 like Fallen Earth, and likewise the official company sources claim of extrodinary revenues. If those reports last, or if they go down the lane as Earthrise, we'll see soon enough.



The second one actually shows how of the 3 million people playing battlefield heroes, less than 2 percent complained, of which most kept playing, and which shows how even an apparently unpopular way for f2p (pay to win), is shown by actual players to actually be more popular.

These are the claims that come from Electronic Arts, need to say any more? Besides, i'm sure they make enough cash with other games to plug any holes in here.



It might be your english, but for some reason you seem to be arguing completely against all the sources you posted, as well as the links I posted. First you quote some posts that say that f2p is very profitable. Then you come back and say p2p is the only way KK can make money.

Then you link to APB and say they only switched to f2p after their p2p had failed, which again supports the notion that f2p is easier to make profitable than p2p. This part of your post is so incredibly flawed logic wise...

The point here is that whether a game is of high or low quality has absolutely nothing to do with whether or not it is free to play or pay to play. A game is either good or bad, there are waaaay more bad p2p games than f2p games. The difference is that f2p generally tend to survive even if they are bad (most gamigo games), where p2p games crash and burn (tabula rasa for example).

Then there is the issue that the f2p aspect of it can be done badly (like in BP) gameplay wise, reasonably unpopularly (like in BF:heroes), or reasonably good (like CC, GA, APB), or very good, like in League of legends and Eve online.

Nope, it's not my english. It's your very own opinion and notification of what's going on around you. The source that backs your thinking you claim as reasonable, the ones that doesn't are merely a claim. Companies throwing the panic anchor as their P2P subscriptions going away due to bad gameplay, performance or service trying to lure in customers with "a free game" instead of fixing the issues that caused people to leave in the first place. Only time can tell whether this tactic will work or not, and whether your magic "F2P=WIN button" is doing it's job.

I'm not realy into argueing about peoples opinions and it's useless at this point - yours and mine are different in that aspect. And neither you, nor I are going to change that. You asked me a question, you got your answer. So bear with it, as like i said, time will tell and in a year or two we all are smarter.



I don't think you'll say I'm an unquestioning kirk-loyalist.. but there's a difference between persistence and stubbornness :p I have always thought a lot of the discussions you and I were involved in were completely counter productive, and sometimes tended to go way too much towards stupid mulish behaviour (also on our part). One of the main reasons I put in the summary of all those questions was to stop all the bickering.

In the end, the discussions have started an process and lead to an result. Leaving the bashings aside, that can be seen as normal in nowadays forum, the conflict worked for resolving issues and problems between the community and KK. It helped KK understanding that we want to be taken seriously and that communication had to be improved. It helped us to understand the current situation of KK and created a common goal to work for.

Strife
18-03-12, 22:49
That's the point of NCR.I'd rather NC2 with a free2play/freemium, whichever model up in 3-6 months than wait 5 years for NCR. Who's to say we'd even like NCR? I'm particularly fond of the NC world and trying to reinvent could be a risk

Biglines
18-03-12, 23:56
Most of these are not free but get their money by commercials. Facebook has an immense worth by selling the informations that people provide every day in their blocks - before you had to do market research, nowadays it's enough to ask Facebook for an customiized data analysis.

So free to play games that get income from advertisements are in fact not free to play? So selling items directly to your customers is free, but selling advertisements to others is?



EVE Online is P2P (http://support.eveonline.com/Pages/KB/Article.aspx?id=21) with an optional PLEX on the CCP Store. Gamers can buy those PLEXes in the EVE store and sell them for ingame money (ISK) to other players. I played EVE Online long enough :)
if it's a game for free, why isn't that game free to play? :S

Is that your opinion or the official statements of the respective companies? I define profitable by a company doing business on their own and receive more money then they invest on the long run, without getting backed from China or Korea. Yet these games still have to prove that they'll be doing fine and we'll see if they are still around in 1 or 2 years - like WoW or EVE already did.

http://www.pcgamer.com/2011/07/04/global-agenda-free-to-play-gets-five-times-the-players-revenues-higher-than-they-ever-have-been/

can't find the article on APB (never played it myself), but when I was playing Fallen Earth (2 weeks), the news on some gaming site (steam agregrates news) said with f2p their revenues had quadrupled.


I find it interesting that the second link for you is showing EAs profits, while the first one is just a claim. How come that Namco Bandai doesn't know what they are talking about, while EA does? Isn't it rather, that your wish was the father of thought?

First of all, the person from namco bandai says himself that in his opinion, free to play causes less quality, he never said anything about profitability. Quality is an opinion, economics and profitability are simple facts that can be looked up.

While I think EA are dicks, they are also dicks that cut any game company that doesn't make them any profit. Hell, it appears you didn't even watch your own link, cuz he specifically mentions that they were on the brink of being cut by EA if they weren't going to be profitable. A company like EA doesn't "support" a game that's not profitable.


By what accounts is Leage of Legends a good F2P game? By yours i assume.
EVE Online ain't no F2P as i clarified before. In which way you enjoy Global Agenda, Crime Craft or All Points Bulletin is all your private business, and not necessarily meet the taste of others. Now why EA produces P2P crap, while before they are so successfull with Battelefield Heroes?

I have never played league of legends, because the DOTA gamestyle doesn't interest me. My "account", is the fact that it has received consistent "western" reviews of 8/10 and higher, winning several awards, and having a metacritic score of 78%

Those score of GA is 80%, crimecraft doesn't show.

And I really can't be bothered spending more time explaining all this to someone like you. Normally I enjoy a healthy discussion, even pointless ones, but you're starting to bore me.

Kamuix99
19-03-12, 00:03
I'd rather NC2 with a free2play/freemium, whichever model up in 3-6 months than wait 5 years for NCR. Who's to say we'd even like NCR? I'm particularly fond of the NC world and trying to reinvent could be a risk

The thing is, that the source code of Neocron 2 is beyond the point of repair. Due to that, the logic step is making and full advance and recreate the whole game into a new game engine (Unity). And this recreated Neocron is Neocron Reloaded.


Biglines>



And I really can't be bothered spending more time explaining all this to someone like you. Normally I enjoy a healthy discussion, even pointless ones, but you're starting to bore me.

Likewise, I'm glad that in this point we are of one and the same opinion. Cheers :lol:

Drachenpaladin
19-03-12, 01:28
Biglines>

And I really can't be bothered spending more time explaining all this to someone like you. Normally I enjoy a healthy discussion, even pointless ones, but you're starting to bore me.
Likewise, I'm glad that in this point we are of one and the same opinion. Cheers :lol:
I hereby see my point about Kamuix stubbornness and the uselessness to argue with him as proven. :)

Kamuix99
19-03-12, 03:01
I hereby see my point about Kamuix stubbornness and the uselessness to argue with him as proven. :)

I hereby see you trolling skills cowardice proven. If you are unable to lead an factual discussion with me directly and resort to backstabbing and ganging up, you're at a loss and not me!


Sorry KK for deviating the subject here.

Ghostface_Speak
19-03-12, 13:11
Deliver a play&enjoyable "Neocron Reloaded" and i throw 100-250bucks in your direction & pay 15wingwangs each month to play it.

Deliver a new "Evo 2.2" and i visit your office to steal TFT-monitors off your desk (might nick some other stuff too while at it)

edit:not trolling btw

Model192
19-03-12, 20:23
The thing is, that the source code of Neocron 2 is beyond the point of repair. Due to that, the logic step is making and full advance and recreate the whole game into a new game engine (Unity). And this recreated Neocron is Neocron Reloaded.


Biglines>



Likewise, I'm glad that in this point we are of one and the same opinion. Cheers :lol:

Except....if they did it RIGHT NOW with NC2 I guarentee you'd have PLENTY of players that would be in this shit paying for whatever and kickstarter wouldnt be a big of a deal.

aKe`cj
19-03-12, 20:40
Except....if they did it RIGHT NOW with NC2 I guarentee you'd have PLENTY of players that would be in this shit paying for whatever and kickstarter wouldnt be a big of a deal.


... careful there - people that haven't seen NC in its glorious days will notice a few things when they encounter the current state of NC:

1. the graphics and GUI are ancient.
2. PvP is bugged beyond repair.
3. servers are pretty empty
4. there's old-timers with quadrillions in rare items and cash not to speak of rooms filled with expensive furniture ^^

Whatever KK does should imho

a) secure the companies future
b) make enough money to get developement on a real NC3 started

If "NC:R" is their best bet to accomplish this, fine.
If "Elvish Treeparty touch HD" for iPad turns out to be the best option.. fine with me as well.

My hope is that of a long term goal labled NC3 :)

Kamuix99
19-03-12, 23:22
Well, I've simply stated what I got so far from Kirk and his answers. I share the same hope with aKe`cj for a NC3 in the future.

Chuck Norris
20-03-12, 03:42
... careful there - people that haven't seen NC in its glorious days will notice a few things when they encounter the current state of NC:

1. the graphics and GUI are ancient.
2. PvP is bugged beyond repair.
3. servers are pretty empty
4. there's old-timers with quadrillions in rare items and cash not to speak of rooms filled with expensive furniture ^^

Whatever KK does should imho

a) secure the companies future
b) make enough money to get developement on a real NC3 started

If "NC:R" is their best bet to accomplish this, fine.
If "Elvish Treeparty touch HD" for iPad turns out to be the best option.. fine with me as well.

My hope is that of a long term goal labled NC3 :)

Im with this guy!
I got a few accounts and tons of loot and to many years to count vest in NC, screw it all imo lets get something new in the Nc universe please!

I cant help, but feel that the people Advocating for everything to remain the same are, inverted-cheating-narcissists. :lol: ;) :angel: :)
something KK has been insulating for some time in NC weather it be indirectly or not.

Change is good, please!

MadMeleeFreak
20-03-12, 18:56
Agreed. As much as I love NC 1 and liked NC 2, the people wanting the current NC 2 or even NC 1 made into a F2P seem to forget that the latter is so outdated that really only a handful of die-hard oldschool fans would play it (hardly enough to generate any revenue towards funding a NC 3) and the former is in the trouble it is in for a reason (cheaters, hackers, players running away).

Both would need changes that aren't feasible with the old engine (as Kirk stated noumerous times now) hence the plan for NC:R.

I also agree with aKe'cj that the ultimate goal cannot be to just get a running and living NC again but to get a new state of the art installment of the series.

Nadja [Mars]
20-03-12, 19:28
Agreed. (...) to get a new state of the art installment of the series.

totally agree
:)

Genty
20-03-12, 20:38
I just had to watch the old Neocron (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OPmAdI91Zoo&feature=related) trailer to remind me how much I loved this game. I would really like to see a revamped version of Neocron to play again but the game world needs to be shrunk down. Even with a capacity amount of 1000 people the zones felt empty and the majority of them were under used.

My favourite areas were the Outzone, which were used more in Beta 4 than at any point during the game.

In my opinion they should focus on either starting from scratch and doing what happened on Irata 3, or just do the city of Neocron (to start with) and utilise all the fantastic areas that there was there.

I wish you good luck in this Kirk but i am most certainly not holding my breath. If a chance of this does materialise though I would strongly urge you to set up regular brainstorm meetings either in the forum or in a chat room with the remaining pationate members of this community, they have much to offer.

Nadja [Mars]
21-03-12, 09:34
...to remind me how much I loved this game. I would really like to see a revamped version of Neocron to play again ...
Ohhhhhh yes!

Tantta
21-03-12, 14:12
http://motivpic.com/users-data/pics/1/17/shut-up-and-take-my-money-1f46.jpg

Strife
21-03-12, 23:22
... careful there - people that haven't seen NC in its glorious days will notice a few things when they encounter the current state of NC:

1. the graphics and GUI are ancient.
2. PvP is bugged beyond repair.
3. servers are pretty empty
4. there's old-timers with quadrillions in rare items and cash not to speak of rooms filled with expensive furniture ^^Yeah I forgot about that. Was a bit annoyed when the gogo "situation" was well known, and reported, and month(s) went by where KK refused to even take them off the vendor.

General Crazy
22-03-12, 00:33
My favourite areas were the Outzone, which were used more in Beta 4 than at any point during the game.
I loved the outzone during the open beta always found some may random things in boxes, the best of all where the Cash Cubes full of credits.

Qlimax
22-03-12, 23:54
Haven't been on this forum for years, but I heard about this from some old FF friends. A great reason to log in again. And to buy a PC as well :D. I'm keeping my eye on this one to see how it evolves *happy*

Doc Holliday
23-03-12, 03:50
Haven't been on this forum for years, but I heard about this from some old FF friends. A great reason to log in again. And to buy a PC as well :D. I'm keeping my eye on this one to see how it evolves *happy*

Theres one. now lets hope this is a drop of water signifying the rain coming. When it comes lets hope its a Tsunami. (pun intended) :D

I will be black dragon. ;)

MadMeleeFreak
23-03-12, 10:57
Theres one. now lets hope this is a drop of water signifying the rain coming. When it comes lets hope its a Tsunami. (pun intended) :D

I will be black dragon. ;)

Hehe. I hope so, too.

Yesterday I reinstalled ICQ and contacted everyone in my Neocron group about this. It bothers me that I didn't have that idea earlier.

CrushOr
23-03-12, 11:38
No way I would support this. Think about it people.

Kirke has failed us at almost every point, only now hes coming out and communicating with us and only because he wants money.

I wouldnt trust KK with a dime, let alone any serious money, they have proven time and time again that when push comes to shove they will only do the bare minimum, the absolute minimum, maybe even a little less than that.

If anything, we should start a kickstarter campaign to buy Neocron from KK, take it away from these people who try harder to do nothing than to actually do something. KK is not staffed by competent business people, giving them our money like this will result in nothing constructive happening. Kirk has yet to keep any of his promises to us. We should use the money to buy Neocron and staff it with actual professional, competent managers and developers.

Kirke has difficulty even communicating with us. I seriously doubt he could oversee the development of a game.

However I bet hes perfectly capable of taking our money and buying a porshe.

If this goes through I hope kickstarter sees it as the scam it is.

Kamuix99
23-03-12, 16:49
No way I would support this. Think about it people.

Kirke has failed us at almost every point, only now hes coming out and communicating with us and only because he wants money.

I wouldnt trust KK with a dime, let alone any serious money, they have proven time and time again that when push comes to shove they will only do the bare minimum, the absolute minimum, maybe even a little less than that.

If anything, we should start a kickstarter campaign to buy Neocron from KK, take it away from these people who try harder to do nothing than to actually do something. KK is not staffed by competent business people, giving them our money like this will result in nothing constructive happening. Kirk has yet to keep any of his promises to us. We should use the money to buy Neocron and staff it with actual professional, competent managers and developers.

Kirke has difficulty even communicating with us. I seriously doubt he could oversee the development of a game.

However I bet hes perfectly capable of taking our money and buying a porshe.

If this goes through I hope kickstarter sees it as the scam it is.

I don't agree with you. You are right when talking about Reakktors communication policy and inactivity for Neocron in the last two years. However, considering the fact that Kirk payed the servers with his private money all of the time leaves most only the flawed communication problem in question.

As we are all humans, I think that we all have the right to make mistakes and learn from them. For me it seems like Kirk and the people of Reakktor now are doing their best to make up for it, as well as he appologized for the problems in the Question&Answer thread. Therefore they deserve a chance and trust from us to get Neocron going again.

Last but not least, Reakktor created Neocron themself and it's their baby. Either they develope/evolve it or nobody does.

CrushOr
23-03-12, 20:15
Apologies are just words at this moment, As for Kirk paying for the servers out of his own money...That just makes him a nice guy, but there is no correlation between being a nice guy and being a competent business man.

They had plenty of chances to deliver when we were still subscribed and paying, but they never did. Now they owe us, We dont owe them. Our tolerance of their disdain for this community is how we paid for the servers.
If this as you say is Kirks best, then its not nearly good enough, which is another reason why we shouldnt give him our money.

Reakktor has been making the same mistakes for years and has never learned from them and this is where they are at now. There is nothing to suggest that giving them money just like that is will somehow change that. It may just encourage them.

If Kirk needs money that bad, he should just sell the Neocron IP or franchise it or whatever, KK does not have the talent, the ability or the competence to take care of NC or develop NC3. He cant even get someone to post on the forums. KK has no communication policy, they dont have any policies at all. They just dont care.


I suppose I wouldnt be completely opposed to "investing" in KK, because something like a kickstarter is essentially that. But any Investor will want to know a few things, Returns, Paybacks, Management etc. Kickstarter is crowd-sourced venture capital, its not a loan...Beyond their own ambition KK has no obligation to us. We've all experienced KKs ambition...to do the absolute minimum...at best. We shouldnt reward them for that.

I think, to even entertain this idea, as a community we need to be more demanding. Kirk needs to tell us what his plans are in detail, we need to know names, dates, costs. So that we can check these people out ourselves and determine if KK is either going to be staffed by professionals working on NC3 or just another bunch of incompetents. Right now, there isnt anything to suggest that we wont be giving our money to incompetents.

I think we also need to demand some sort of guarantee, something to stop Kirk from just driving away in his new Porshe or stringing us along for years like he's been doing and in the meantime doing F all on our dime.

MrTrip
23-03-12, 20:27
I don't agree with you. You are right when talking about Reakktors communication policy and inactivity for Neocron in the last two years. However, considering the fact that Kirk payed the servers with his private money all of the time leaves most only the flawed communication problem in question.

As we are all humans, I think that we all have the right to make mistakes and learn from them. For me it seems like Kirk and the people of Reakktor now are doing their best to make up for it, as well as he appologized for the problems in the Question&Answer thread. Therefore they deserve a chance and trust from us to get Neocron going again.

Last but not least, Reakktor created Neocron themself and it's their baby. Either they develope/evolve it or nobody does.


Calculating the estimated bandwidth + resources to run a Neocron server, I estimate that Kirk has been dropping $170~\mo out of pocket, of course he could also have been dropping $70~\mo out of pocket for a cloud solution.

That isn't too much, a far cry from the savior of Neocron, but something nice he did none the less.

Biglines
24-03-12, 01:56
Calculating the estimated bandwidth + resources to run a Neocron server, I estimate that Kirk has been dropping $170~\mo out of pocket, of course he could also have been dropping $70~\mo out of pocket for a cloud solution.

That isn't too much, a far cry from the savior of Neocron, but something nice he did none the less.
just wondering, on what data are you basing that estimate? I'd have imagined the hardware itself doesn't cost a whole lot, so the bandwidth would be 90% of the cost?

MrTrip
24-03-12, 06:31
just wondering, on what data are you basing that estimate? I'd have imagined the hardware itself doesn't cost a whole lot, so the bandwidth would be 90% of the cost?

Basing it on mostly bandwidth yes

William Antrim
24-03-12, 10:18
Its still a good chunk of change whatever happens.


Personally I want to see a sound development/business plan before I invest. Whatever level of investment that is I would still like to see what return I expect to get from my money. I can live with deadlines being missed occasionally and things like that but I would like to see something clearly and in writing spelling out how my money is going to help.

Biglines
24-03-12, 14:05
Basing it on mostly bandwidth yes
I meant, could you share what bandwidth you measured cuz I would be very interested in knowing how much neocron uses.

Kirk Lenke
24-03-12, 16:55
Apologies are just words at this moment, As for Kirk paying for the servers out of his own money...That just makes him a nice guy, but there is no correlation between being a nice guy and being a competent business man.

They had plenty of chances to deliver when we were still subscribed and paying, but they never did. Now they owe us, We dont owe them. Our tolerance of their disdain for this community is how we paid for the servers.
If this as you say is Kirks best, then its not nearly good enough, which is another reason why we shouldnt give him our money.

Reakktor has been making the same mistakes for years and has never learned from them and this is where they are at now. There is nothing to suggest that giving them money just like that is will somehow change that. It may just encourage them.

If Kirk needs money that bad, he should just sell the Neocron IP or franchise it or whatever, KK does not have the talent, the ability or the competence to take care of NC or develop NC3. He cant even get someone to post on the forums. KK has no communication policy, they dont have any policies at all. They just dont care.


I suppose I wouldnt be completely opposed to "investing" in KK, because something like a kickstarter is essentially that. But any Investor will want to know a few things, Returns, Paybacks, Management etc. Kickstarter is crowd-sourced venture capital, its not a loan...Beyond their own ambition KK has no obligation to us. We've all experienced KKs ambition...to do the absolute minimum...at best. We shouldnt reward them for that.

I think, to even entertain this idea, as a community we need to be more demanding. Kirk needs to tell us what his plans are in detail, we need to know names, dates, costs. So that we can check these people out ourselves and determine if KK is either going to be staffed by professionals working on NC3 or just another bunch of incompetents. Right now, there isnt anything to suggest that we wont be giving our money to incompetents.

I think we also need to demand some sort of guarantee, something to stop Kirk from just driving away in his new Porshe or stringing us along for years like he's been doing and in the meantime doing F all on our dime.

Boy, well nobody at KK and especially me does owe you anything.

Who are you that you have the balls to demand something. Know what, this is what makes game development so silly, guys like you who are envy of whatsoever and try to have a life by writing BS here in our/my forum.

I dont have a Porsche and even if I would have one, the only people who would have a "right" to complain would be the employees.

You can play NC for free, you can use the forums for free, you find people who read your BS so be kind and respectful.

And hey, of course is Neocron still a product and therefor we need money. Or we leave it and I sell it... Who knows.... Whatever comes you would have to live it.

Thanks and regards,
Kirk

Praetorian
24-03-12, 18:55
Well im in, i'd gladly put in 100€ (that was my vote - if needed i'd give even more) or whatever to help this along. Neocron was my "first" MMO and everything since has always paled im comparison.

On second thought, i would even rob a bank if it ment a NC3 :D

phunqe
24-03-12, 18:57
Damn Kirk, watch the bloodpressure there :p

In any case... I can relate to being dejacent at this point, as far as I can see most flaws and errors have been acknowledged at this time. Quite a few of the fundamental errors that greatly contributed to the current state were done even before Kirk was appointed CEO.

I don't remember when NC was made free to play, but that was a long time ago now if I am not mistaken. At that time it was quite obvious what one could expect, given the financial issues and previous insolvencies.

At this time I have a hard time seeing that KK should owe me anything. Sure, promises were made and broken, communication was lacking, but looking at it from a realistic point of view I dind't really expect anything (after the first insolvency and free to play).
Even if this latest communication has been overdue and in also forced by the community you can still read between the lines and see that the will to commit was and still is there but reality would not have it.

I was much more upset during previous managment when I was actually paying and things were already then not going well.

As for the Kickstarter and cash investment I don't think Kirk or anybody else just expects a "Hey, here is my PayPal account. Put your money here and I'll see what I can do".

flib
24-03-12, 19:30
Boy, well nobody at KK and especially me does owe you anything.

Who are you that you have the balls to demand something. Know what, this is what makes game development so silly, guys like you who are envy of whatsoever and try to have a life by writing BS here in our/my forum.

I dont have a Porsche and even if I would have one, the only people who would have a "right" to complain would be the employees.

You can play NC for free, you can use the forums for free, you find people who read your BS so be kind and respectful.

And hey, of course is Neocron still a product and therefor we need money. Or we leave it and I sell it... Who knows.... Whatever comes you would have to live it.

Thanks and regards,
Kirk
Awesome, man! *high five*
Nice to see the PR gloves come off, putting that troll/dick in his place.

CrushOr
24-03-12, 20:01
Boy, well nobody at KK and especially me does owe you anything.

Who are you that you have the balls to demand something. Know what, this is what makes game development so silly, guys like you who are envy of whatsoever and try to have a life by writing BS here in our/my forum.

I dont have a Porsche and even if I would have one, the only people who would have a "right" to complain would be the employees.

You can play NC for free, you can use the forums for free, you find people who read your BS so be kind and respectful.

And hey, of course is Neocron still a product and therefor we need money. Or we leave it and I sell it... Who knows.... Whatever comes you would have to live it.

Thanks and regards,
Kirk

We paid subs for years while KK ignored us completely...."Boy, well nobody at KK and especially me does owe you anything." Thats not even close to being right.
KK is only now communicating with us because they want money, they are not even offering to sell us shares or anything that carries some sort of obligation...They want to use Kickstarter. KK hasnt even begun to mention how they will go about using our money.

"the only people who would have a "right" to complain would be the employees."
While we all paid subs and KK completely ignored us, we were customers. How many times did we have to go to the BP boards and make a stink there *just* to get someone to post on our forums? When was the last patch?

Those of us that are still here after that...you owe us.

You are not asking for an investment, you are asking for a donation, a hand-out and with your track record we have absolutely no reason to believe that you will deliver. You could just take our money again, like you did with our Subs and we'll get the bare minimum back just like before.... Which wont be NC3. It will be the same lack of communication and periodic stirrings that "NC3 is coming"... some day... and some concept art. You people can barely post on the forums. You cant even patch an existing game. Hell, you cant even ban people for hacking!
There is no way that KK can deliver Neocron 3. Not without some major changes.

We gave you money before and you failed us as customers while you fucked around with BP. If we give you money again, the evidence only suggests that you will fail us again. In both circumstances we absolutely have the right to complain.

As to "who am I to have the balls to demand". Like almost everyone here I am one of the customers you completely ignored. I am also one of the people who could potentially invest in NC3/KK/Kirk Lenke. I am like most other people here one of your potential future customers. I think I can speak for most people when I say its not unreasonable to demand certain things in return for my money.

If you approach any venture capital people. They will have the balls to demand pretty much the same things I have...so good luck with that attitude Kirk, because you arnt doing us the favour and you wont be doing them the favour either.

This is obviously a concept that KK doesnt understand, because they were fine with taking our subs but almost completely dropped their end of the deal.
I would like to see you try that with real investors, who have lawyers.

So yes, while I will concede that you are a nice guy for paying for the servers, I know you got something out of it too so its not like you did it completely out of the kindness in your heart.
Kirk, I'm not saying you are a bad guy. You are just not the kind of person we can blindly give money too and expect any kind of return. I'm smart enough to know that just giving you money and *hoping* that you will make NC3 happen is almost certainly not going to pan out. However if you present us with a plan. Then I am sure people like me will consider it, and if there was some way to guarantee that you will deliver then people like me would almost completely be sold.

As it stands, there is nothing to suggest that my money wont turn into your Porshe, and that belief is further reinforced by the attitude displayed in your post.

Ryan Steiner
24-03-12, 20:36
....*snip* a lot of BS .....*snip*

Kirk, I'm not saying you are a bad guy. You are just not the kind of person we can blindly give money too and expect any kind of return.

Would you pls stop using the word "WE" here ?

Kirk might not be "the kind of person YOU would blindly give money" but he is definitely the kind of person I would blindly give money to develop NC. As you can see in the poll, a LOT of people would do that, so pls start talking only for yourself !

As for the rest of your post:
You definitely do NOT have the right to demand anything from KK/Kirk.
It has always been your own choice to pay the monthly fee for your account. Nobody forced you to do that and NC has been completly free to play for many years now.
You are NOT a customer who has the right to demand anything, because you do NOT pay for anything.

Lia Wong / Last Generation / Terra

Nadja [Mars]
24-03-12, 20:42
As a professional trouble shooter I know the inside of corporates when having troubles.
And ...
Maybe KK didnt fulfil all of the expectances of some ppl here.
Yes. Maybe.
But ...
Maybe KK had other and more important things to do than fulfilling exaggerated expactances of some sort of players.

Surely KK could have done things better with outside-communications. Yes. They definitly could.
But ...
Dont judge something you dont even know fragments of the background reasons. There are so many. You surely are wrong with your speculations.

How I see it?

I see KK doing better now. Way better!
A small company with limited resources started a new product (development, publishing, supporting it when running). Parallel they had to go through an insolvency. They had to get rid of the 10t guys (btw.. many mistakes where made at 10t's not at KK's side :) ) to get back working on NC issues adequately.
After insolvency and 10t issues where clarified they started to give information, started to include us to development.
Watch it on the "search" option here: Some user suggested about kickstarter and a few ours later Kirk started this thread. THAT is awesome good reakktion and awesome good communikkation. Quickly and related to users suggestions.
So what are some here whining about? Mistakes of the past?
That doesn't help anyone here. Especially when some here forget what KK really did well:

During all the time we could p4f. And some here are whining about that?
Did some here ever thought about what it means for a company to get through an insolvency? .. AND offering a free product with no cash gain (but gaining costs) at that time?

We really should respect the point that KK made it possible FOR US to p4f.
It surely had to be explained to the guys checking out the insolvency plan. ;)

Oh..
btw..
Maybe you, Crush0r, think about this:
The CEO of a company usually has a REALLY full timetable.
Normally it's guys like Trivaldi's (and his colleagues') job to care for us customers. I never saw a corp where the boss himself cared for the forums. For that job he usually pays employees.
I really admire Kirk's decision for finding the time and showing us personally how important this project is to KK and to him.
We should respect that.

What would be when the KK guys stop including us to NC:R development and maybe close old NC2 and use the free time for the new project. It might be less frustrating to them. So be kind and enjoy being included now.
:angel:

MrTrip
24-03-12, 21:54
Look, I guess I need to say that I am not taking any side really, I am just kind of....cautious when it comes to my money...and here is why..

KK dropped development on Neocron for well over a year, and is now starting to come back when they need us most.... The fact that anybody still plays is awesome, and preaching the bad business decisions KK made in the past to them is like preaching to somebody who has been "touched by the hand of god" that god doesn't exist. Won't work, ever.

The sour customers left long ago, and that is fine I suppose, the loyal ones are still here, clinging to a future. Fine, let them have that.

I agree with Crush0r a bit, I really want to see a well laid out plan before I hand money over.

However, my knowledge and skills? I'll hand those out to KK in a heartbeat if they ask me for it. I have offered, I'm awaiting a response.

Kirk, I understand you are busy, so don't take that the wrong way, I'm patiently waiting :)

Chuck Norris
25-03-12, 01:27
The globes broke, I got kick-start funds, Ive gotten three others to dedicate funds also and they dont even play, dont let one smeghead derail the movement!

sl33py
25-03-12, 12:47
Kirk... 500... don't hesitate to call if you need anything

General Crazy
25-03-12, 18:40
While we all paid subs and KK completely ignored us, we were customers. How many times did we have to go to the BP boards and make a stink there *just* to get someone to post on our forums? When was the last patch?

Those of us that are still here after that...you owe us.
1) Who are you to think you to even think your opinion is shared by others? You should have said "I" in stead of "us"

2) Putting aside the "ToS" and thinking about Neocron like any other product or service, you chose to continue pay for it: you are not required to have that product or service like you are required pay taxes.

So from the way you talk you must think that if you get a service like say a internet service or a cell phone(non-contract service). You don't like the service well you keep paying for that service month after month year after year, finally you call up the company and say "Your service sucks, I want all my money back". They are not going to give you that money back and they don't owe you anything you had chosen to continue to pay for that service when you could have cancelled at any time.


We gave you money before and you failed us as customers while you fucked around with BP. If we give you money again, the evidence only suggests that you will fail us again. In both circumstances we absolutely have the right to complain.

As to "who am I to have the balls to demand". Like almost everyone here I am one of the customers you completely ignored. I am also one of the people who could potentially invest in NC3/KK/Kirk Lenke. I am like most other people here one of your potential future customers. I think I can speak for most people when I say its not unreasonable to demand certain things in return for my money.
3) Being a customer is not the same as being an investor. Again think of it like your personal internet service or a cell phone service you are not an investor, you are the customer. A customer is paying for a product or service, where as an investor not getting anything, they are risking their money for a chance at making a big profit on their investment.


If you approach any venture capital people. They will have the balls to demand pretty much the same things I have...so good luck with that attitude Kirk, because you arnt doing us the favour and you wont be doing them the favour either.

This is obviously a concept that KK doesnt understand, because they were fine with taking our subs but almost completely dropped their end of the deal.
I would like to see you try that with real investors, who have lawyers
4) Again you are confusing a customer with a investor, investors sign contracts and may have requirements they force a company that are investing in to follow, but with customers they are not required to do a lot of things, there is an old saying "buyer beware", it is your choice to by a product or service, it is you obligation to look at what you are buying and ignorance to this fact will not hold up in any legal form.

Here is an example of seller obligation vs. buyer ignorance.

Seller obligation: Take for instance like here in Ontario, Canada you buy a used car from a dealer and it has had a "Safety", you drive down the road and you blow a tire and end up in the ditch to find out the tires where unsafe because the rubber was dried out and cracking, as part of a vehicle "Safety" the tires must meet minimum conditions which they did not, you have the legal right to go after the dealer(and/or the mechanic that said it pass a "Safety") you got the car from because it of what the legal requirements of a vehicle that has passed a "Safety".

Buyer ignorance: Take you buy a used car "as is"; and you just in and drive down the road and you blow a tire, and end up in the ditch, because those tires where unsafe for the road, you have no legal right to go after the person you got the from, because you had chosen to purchase that car "as is".


So yes, while I will concede that you are a nice guy for paying for the servers, I know you got something out of it too so its not like you did it completely out of the kindness in your heart.
5) What possible gain could Kirk get out of paying for the servers that do not create any form of returns?

-----

My advice CrushOr if you fell so negative to KK and Kirk why are you still coming to the Neocron forums? You come across just like one of the people that don't like their ex and complain about them now stop, but you keep crawling back to them every chance you get. If you fell wronged by KK and Kirk as much as you come across in your post you might want to think about to just move on with you life and not look back.

General Crazy
25-03-12, 18:58
Put aside anything to do NC in the past and put aside that the fact that you maybe already standing there with money in hand to give up to see NC continue.

How many others are would like to see a Business/Kickstarter Plan?

Please keep any responses as a "yes" or a "no". I think by just asking simple questions with a simple agreement or disagreement, it will be more beneficial then long posts that can come across like rants and cause people to argue back and forth.

MadMeleeFreak
25-03-12, 19:20
How many others are would like to see a Business/Kickstarter Plan?

YES (But I'm already among the voters in that poll)

@Kirk: Just ignore that useless troll. He obviously is just here to cause a fuss (any moderator on?). Most of us hope the best for you guys at KK (even if it only is to ensure that there is a future for NC) and are looking forward to any news and further details as soon as you are able to share them with us.

psychowar
25-03-12, 20:18
Yeah, like Kirk said



The reason I have raised this poll was that I am curious how many people are still reading the forums and beside this how many of them would take in regard to may invest something.


Crush0r for sure didn't read that part. There is no campaign, so why should Kirk already go into details about the project?


@Kirk: Just ignore that useless troll.
/signed

Strife
25-03-12, 20:39
You can play NC for free, you can use the forums for free, you find people who read your BS so be kind and respectful.


Thanks and regards,
KirkI"d rather pay and have a population that is respectable for this game. It's a great concept, and a great game. There is no reason why this game should have a population on a server under 4 digits.



Who are you that you have the balls to demand something.
Most likely someone who has spent money on this game, for a buggy unpolished product, unmaintained game, with such poor judgement in game publishers that put forth barely any effort to promote this game, publisher after publisher. The game at it's core is fun, but the lack of competence has made Neocron an inferior product and paying customers deserved more than they received.

I mean no offense here, I respect you as someone of your position with a game developer, and the ability to put a game out, and I know most of Necron's problems stem from before your reign, but Reakktor's leadership has shown a lack of responsibility and competence when it comes to the business aspect of their products. You've had AMAZING support staff, great employees, but the leadership has always left a LOT to be desired. Show us what will or has changed?

I'd love to drop tons of money to help get a new Neocron out. I don't mean to be prejudiced here, as my family is from Germany, but I won't drop a dime if you intend to use a German publisher. I've seen 4-5 of them try to push games, and i've seen 4-5 them do almost absolutely nothing. With social media the way it is now, I find that extremely embarrassing.

I'd love to be a fanboi of yours and keep a picture of you with hearts around it in my closet, but give me a reason. :P

CrushOr
25-03-12, 22:41
1)
A whole bunch of stuff from "Intro to business 101" at El Taco Bell School of Business.


Go read about how investing works, what venture capital is, what they want, how its different from banks because you clearly havent got a clue. You completely missed the mark on almost everything I said and instead prattled on about some occupational health and safety consumer protection BS and I'm not here to educate you on the fundamentals of how business works.


----
We kept paying subs when we had every reason to walk away because KK told us they were working to fix neocron and that everything would be fine "soon" this was like 5 years ago. We were promised an anti-cheat patch how long ago?

This is why we are "owed". Why do I keep saying "we"? Because everyone here was paying subs while KK ignored us got told the same thing and we kept being lied to and ignored collectively, "we".

Giving him money, either through kickstarter, into paypal or in sizzler gift certificates for him to go and develop NC 3 makes us investors, not customers.




As for everyone else...

Kissing Kirks ass and being nice to him isnt going to deliver NC 3, he isnt going to make NC 3 because he likes you and wants to make you happy and be friends. Giving Kirk money "just like that" without him providing you with a business plan isn't going to make NC 3 either.

If he provides you with a business plan and some framework of accountability then the chances of NC 3 being delivered are massively improved because he is at least obligated to some extent to deliver.
Anything less and he could literally just take our money, buy a porshe and go on vacation.

Kirk, Is KK a company or a charity? If you want charity, free money. Just say so.

Its not that I dont want to see Neocron 3 happen. Of course I do, there isnt anything to even suggest that Kirk and by extension KK can actually make it happen, not without something more.
They were able to make BP only because Gamingo was riding their asses to do it. As a bunch of disconnected and disorganized people, the NC community doesnt even have a fraction of that bargaining power.

Biglines
25-03-12, 23:23
They were able to make BP only because Gamingo was riding their asses to do it.
Gamigo only got involved after they had pretty much finished the game (between alpha and beta tests). The original money came from venture capitalists and KK itself if I remember right from the posts.

CrushOr
26-03-12, 00:14
Well, the point I was trying to make was that someone was riding their asses to do it.

Nadja [Mars]
26-03-12, 07:48
... I really want to see a well laid out plan before I hand money over.
...


I think some here share that point.
But it wasnt Kirk's intention with this threat. Think we both share that point. :)

--

Well, the point I was trying to make was that someone was riding their asses to do it.
erm .. lol .. ?!
Is this speculation or just trolling?!
What exactly do you know about the backgrounds of the KK-gamigo-deal? What about their way of working? Nothing.
So stop spreading rumors.

I better stop feeding the troll now.
:rolleyes:

Fuzzy Wuzzy
26-03-12, 12:46
blatantly someone doesn't read the forums nadja, there was a post back then about (in simplified terms) they had to stop doing stuff on neocron, because they were told to focus on only bp.


Also I understand why there are some people with negative opinions on this..


I am not trying to be a dick, but it is a little strange how nobody from kk will even answer something on the forums, or an ingame ticket for months, except the random, "luls we is still here". Then suddenly they are in insolvency again, and they decide, hey, let's get 2-3 new gms (jord (if he ever started? gave up on nc tbh), and scanline (who abuses his powers from what I have heard, again not trying to cause problems, I am just taking feedback from others). Then start answering questions and starting events..

Yes active gms, awesome. Yes events, awesome. Yes responses from the neocron team, awesome. But wait, doesn't that kind of send out a red flag?? That it is good to hear something from the company that made the game... I mean, they should have never given up on their community...

After these new turn of events they are now seeing if people will give money? I am not saying people shouldn't ect. But the order and timing they did it in was poorly done, and makes it seem like they are only paying attention to us again for our money, and if they weren't in insolvency, we would be that ugly sweater that grandma knitted for you, that you hide in the back of the closet until she is around, again...

I personally, and other people I have spoken to feel it was wrong of kk to just flat out ignore their community, who is 100% behind them, for as long as they did..

Again I am not saying they are just doing this for money, ect. I am saying it was poorly executed, and I can see why some people have different opinions on the matter....

MadMeleeFreak
26-03-12, 12:51
We kept paying subs when we had every reason to walk away because KK told us they were working to fix neocron and that everything would be fine "soon" this was like 5 years ago. We were promised an anti-cheat patch how long ago?

Five years ago (2007) we were playing NC 2.1. Back then cheaters and exploiters haven't been that much of a problem. The issue at hand was balance. Pretty much exactly 5 years ago the balancing update NC Evolution 2.2 went live after months of dicsussion and playtesting. By the end of that year a content patch reverting several things back to the state of NC 1 (as requested by a huge portion of the active players) followed (most factions went back to NC, the dome became a PvE zone, the faction system was loosened again away from the 2 Alliance system). Somewhen around that time Reakktor started working on BP. In 2008 they revealed their plans for BP publicly. By mid of 2008 the subscription fee for NC was lowered to 5€/month (I guess they even admitted they'd do this due to the reduced support and the game's age). By the end of 2008 all accounts that already were created by then were modified to be able to play for free in the course of the 10T insolvency and the problems it caused with the payment providers. This is the very same state our accounts are still in. So you sir were hardly paying "for years" for an unsupported game.

The promise, test and failure of that anti-cheat patch all happend after the 10T insolvency when you were already playing for free. Also note that the patch was made by Reakktor employees in their free time without being payed for it. So much for how much Reakktor (as the persons working there) cares about the game.

As for the whole BP and Gamigo Deal: Gamigo believed that game was worth making so they got involved, invested the money needed to finish the game and in the end even bought the IP as a whole. There is nothing wrong with that. We all aren't stupid here you know. We all know that there has to be big money involved in order to get a NC 3. And we all know that if it's made it is also made to get revenue out of it, which is not wrong either. Same holds true for NC:R. And it is not like you'd get nothing out of investing into a kickstarter campaign. The few games made with kickstarter money so far gave away free copies and other stuff. I guess for a MMO if you invest enough you easily get free lifetime subs (which safes a lot of money) or free gametime.

I am well aware of false decisions made in the past regarding NC. But we all know that in all these years reakktor was never acting on their own. There allways was a publisher and/or investment fund behind them they had to answer to. And as far as the publishers go they surely also took an active role when it came to making decisions.

A Kickstarter campaign would be a chance to do things independently. That alone should be reason for Reakktor (or Nukklear, which ever will try to do NC:R in the end) to try and go for it and reason for us to take the risk and invest a few euros. No one says it has to be thousands. Hell I put more money into steam for games I don't have time to play in their holiday season sales as I have voted in this poll.

MadMeleeFreak
26-03-12, 13:04
snip for length ...

It's true to some extend. The problem they had (from my perspective) was that their hands were kind of tied during those 3 almost 4 years. They had to do BP for Gamigo to survive. Subs for NC were all canceled so no money coming from there. Also I would guess it was layed out in detail how and what for they are allowed to use the money coming in from Gamigo. So they couldn't pay devs or professional support staff to fix NC, hence a reactivation of subs was out of question. And honestly: how would most of us have reacted if they'd told us month for month: "We have no money to work on NC, sorry guys all will stay as is". In the end it would have been better and easier for them to just shut the game servers and forum and leave it at that. Any company doing things just for money would have done that years ago, SOE or EA for instance do that garbage on a regular basis.

I for one believe Kirk when he says that they also want NC to go on, as it is their baby, and all that's hapining about this kickstarter thing is done to ensure that NC goes on in a way that they as a company are able to actively support it. This impression (that things don't happen only out of greed or something) also is strengthened by the fact that they consider releasing NC as open source if all else fails.

Nadja [Mars]
26-03-12, 14:16
blatantly someone doesn't read the forums nadja...
I read the forums and I did read that post.
My quote was to short and misunderstandingly cut. Sry for that.
My statement on that was like:
We only know fragments (btw. KK gave them) and some here judge like knowing everything about "behind the scenes".

What I refer to is that some ppl here keep on bashing KK for whatever they do:

Comm asked for changes at DoY. KK made DoY a PvE zone and moved the apartments.
Comm asked for changes at F6. KK changed the F6 like comm asked for.
Comm asked for new balancing. KK started the new balancing project.
Comm asked to be involved in the balancing. KK involved comm to balancing project.
Comm asked if NC will go on when BP starts. KK promised to keep NC alive - and it did.
Comm asked for more action on the servers. KK starts events on servers.
etc.
etc.
(no order of appearance)

I really wonder what some ppl are whining for here?!
The balancing is f**** up? Yes it is.
But it was us who made it. It have been our suggestions that made the balancing as it is.
See what KK really did and think about if some expectations might be slightly exaggerated...

KK has always shown reactions to our demandings - as far as they could from external reasons.
Sometimes this reaction wasnt as some here wanted. Sure. But you can hardly satisfy everyone here. We are too different at some points.

Oh and btw.. I'd like to see NC:R or NC3 better to be developed by KK than by EA.
Imho that would be enough reason to give KK some money.
:)

Fuzzy Wuzzy
26-03-12, 14:23
a thing about balancing...

A lot of people have been raging at dribble joy's suggestions for the balancing, since he did put a large amount of ideas out there...

If you really look into it, they did take some of his suggestions, then bastardized them..

He really did have some great ideas...

But not all of the balancing that happened / most of it, did not come from community suggestion, it came from poor takes on what the community suggested. So yes, partially the communities fault, but not fully..

General Crazy
27-03-12, 03:32
Quote:
Originally Posted by General Crazy
1)
A whole bunch of stuff from "Intro to business 101" at El Taco Bell School of Business.

I never laugh so hard in my life I at someone trying to troll me. I have to give you points for creativity.

I sorry CrushOr, but I am incapable of providing you with a angry comeback, as I am not a very creative person, I lack the emotions, and plan and simple I just don't see logic in attempting it. But hey next time you may want to try first inputting the code: UP UP DOWN DOWN LEFT RIGHT LEFT RIGHT B A

MrDomino
28-03-12, 02:51
Seems to me like this is a borderline scam. There's no plan or anything. It's just a guy with a failing company begging people on a forum to send him money without the promise of anything in return.

Seriously, guys. You need to take a step back and think about what's going on here.

Think of a cook who begs his guests to pay extra for their meal because the restaurant is going to go under but if they can just scrape together a little more cash then maybe they'll be able to reinvent the place and attract big business. It's just not going to happen.

Even if they find 2,000 people to donate $200, that's only enough to pay 13 people $30,000 for one year which is pretty crappy pay. That doesn't even include their monthly lease for their building, utilities, insurance, hardware, software, etc.

Jodo
28-03-12, 03:14
Seems to me like this is a borderline scam. There's no plan or anything. It's just a guy with a failing company begging people on a forum to send him money without the promise of anything in return.

Seriously, guys. You need to take a step back and think about what's going on here.

Think of a cook who begs his guests to pay extra for their meal because the restaurant is going to go under but if they can just scrape together a little more cash then maybe they'll be able to reinvent the place and attract big business. It's just not going to happen.

Even if they find 2,000 people to donate $200, that's only enough to pay 13 people $30,000 for one year which is pretty crappy pay. That doesn't even include their monthly lease for their building, utilities, insurance, hardware, software, etc.

Firstly, nobody has asked for money. Kirk was just curious if anyone would be willing to invest IF they ever decided to go with a Kickstarter campaign. Possibly the reason for this is to see if there is a rich NC player out there somewhere who would be willing and ale to invest serious money (but that is pure speculation from me).

Secondly, I've lost count of the posts begging to have the opportunity to just give, yes give, money to KK to keep the ship afloat and help in anyway they can. What the hell is so wrong with thinking about offering the chance to invest it instead and be a small part of the game so many of us have fallen in love with?

Thirdly, even if all that could be done is raise a few grand, that's a start and a very positive thing to show wealthier investors. "We have fans so loyal, so dedicated, that they keep asking for the chance to throw their money at us." That can look real good to an investor.

As I said, no one has asked for money so get off Kirks back and don't do something as despicable as suggesting that he's out to con anyone.

Doc Holliday
28-03-12, 05:44
Firstly, nobody has asked for money. Kirk was just curious if anyone would be willing to invest IF they ever decided to go with a Kickstarter campaign. Possibly the reason for this is to see if there is a rich NC player out there somewhere who would be willing and ale to invest serious money (but that is pure speculation from me).

Secondly, I've lost count of the posts begging to have the opportunity to just give, yes give, money to KK to keep the ship afloat and help in anyway they can. What the hell is so wrong with thinking about offering the chance to invest it instead and be a small part of the game so many of us have fallen in love with?

Thirdly, even if all that could be done is raise a few grand, that's a start and a very positive thing to show wealthier investors. "We have fans so loyal, so dedicated, that they keep asking for the chance to throw their money at us." That can look real good to an investor.

As I said, no one has asked for money so get off Kirks back and don't do something as despicable as suggesting that he's out to con anyone.


beautiful. just beautiful. summed it up perfectly. What some people fail to see and as jodo rightly said if they raise X funding from the crowdfunding/kickstarter whos to say there isnt an investor out there who will say ok we can match/double that investment or more.

when u go for a bank loan you dont often get 100% loans without some kind of deposit. If you think of it in this way thats what we are doing. providing that deposit. And you dont HAVE to donate so please people stop trolling about scams and shit. Me i quit smoking about 2 months ago. i reckon i saved $45AUD a week already. 8 x 45 = $360 I would gladly donate that in a heartbeat. what ever else i can add in on top i would do. If its a chance to see a new NC or even a hark back to its glory days via a reloaded (my idea for the name waaaaaaaaay back when. :P cant prove it here and now but it was written on this forum and yes i did kinda take the idea from the way APB was done) version then so be it. i have my health instead. life is about choices.

Jodo
28-03-12, 09:29
Whoa, someone else with some common sense AND who also fully read and understood the OP and posts since. Give that man a big fooking cookie.
I can't believe how much peoples imaginations and paranoia have run away with this thread. :wtf:

[removed picture]

Congratz on giving up smoking btw and good luck staying off them.

William Antrim
28-03-12, 20:33
I am your long lost cousin from nigeria.... i have located our family gold that was stored out here before the war. Please send me money so that I can unlock the fees from the bank to pay out the gold that our family owns. Then i will send you the money that you need and all the diamonds that are rightfully ours.....



This above is a scam.

Kickstarter is just what it says on the tin. A kickstart to a game that a die hard group of fans have tried to help for a long time.

If people dont like it why troll? Does it really feed the ego that much to make you feel better for telling the world what idiots they are for falling for a scam.... Dude its the internet. There is a sucker born every minute and ten scams for each one.


I for one have a serious proposition for Kirk about investing some serious money in this game. I am keeping my thoughts to myself for now and waiting for a pm to talk about it in more detail.

I have a way of investing I believe and I earned this money through my own hard work. If i want to invest in this scam instead of sending it to my cousin in Nigeria then I will do that. It seems to me I will get a better return in Germany.

Santo
29-03-12, 11:44
Damn, I'd love to see that campaign :)

However, 2 vote options for the poll above would have been awesome ;D Would have not forced me to decide whether where I vote on or not.

DIABLO666
31-03-12, 14:05
Would love it as long as they can make it properly, it seems to have done amazingly for other games, one for example needed $900k and got 3 million.

Santo
31-03-12, 16:16
There are severall incredible examples out there. Last game I saw tried to get like 10k $ and they got 180k $. You just need some luck and a good working concept tho (imho)

zii
06-04-12, 09:48
Here is the email I received for a Kicker Starter campaign that commenced recently. I expect to see similar standards of communication from Reakktor - Which I think I did back during the balancing for NC2, so no complaints as I know it can be done. It a fun mailshot, and I suspect the first of many. Its tone is very positive.

P.S I raise my 15euros to 50euros.


--> The URL links were removed for the following email.


Project Update #8: Episode 1: A Perfect Storm for Adventure
Backer_white For backers only,

Posted by Double Fine and 2 Player Productions Like

Greetings Backers!

Welcome to the first episode of the Double Fine Adventure! series, titled “A Perfect Storm for Adventure”. This first episode is primarily about the launch of the Kickstarter campaign. We've said before that no one was expecting the Kickstarter to be so successful, and when things really took off we found ourselves scrambling to capture as much as possible. The story of starting the project had become just as important as the project itself.

Speaking of the project, we’ve now officially entered pre-production and are brainstorming concepts for the game, experimenting with different art styles, and building technology to help ensure that production goes smoothly. Make sure to join us in the backer forums for discussion and the most up to date information on our progress! If you haven’t set up an account yet for some silly reason, you can do so here (remember to register with the same email address as your Kickstarter account).

More fun news-we’re also currently prototyping shirts and posters, and are hoping to ship in a couple months! Those of you who backed for at least $100 can expect surveys soon to gather shipping information, shirt sizes, and names for the credits. We obviously can’t order the shirts until we know what sizes to get, so if you could get those filled out as soon as possible that would be swell!

And without further ado, Double Fine Adventure!, Episode 1: A Perfect Storm for Adventure! (Remember, the following link in this email will not work. Please view the video on Kickstarter here)
https://vimeo.com/XXXXXREMOVEDXXXXX

Episode notes
You’ll find that this first episode contains a lot of media from different sources.

00:05 // Bagel was kind enough to make a new logo for us that reflects the Adventure! theme.

00:41 // The opening credits montage was filmed during a trip to a photography studio. Taking this photo of Bagels painting is part of the process of making the poster rewards.

01:13 // The NPR interview with Tim can be found here.

01:18 // Machinarium can be found here.

02:33 // We used footage from Gamespot’s live stream but we did actually film that night at the GDC awards as part of our work on the Minecraft documentary. Keep an eye out for the Notch cameo.
03:30 // Full Throttle and the rest of Tim’s classic games can be played via the ScummVM emulator.

Grim Fandango is a little trickier, you can find instructions for playing it here:

For Windows --LINKREMOVED
For Mac --LINKREMOVED

04:26 // "Up at Noon" Episode featuring Tim Schafer can be found here.

06:24 // The alternate takes to Kickstarter update #2 were actually filmed the day after we shot the pitch video, before the project was even launched. In case we couldn’t make it back to the office soon enough after the launch, we had Tim record three messages for how the campaign could potentially go.

07:05 // We used Screenflow to capture the day one push to the goal.

10:00 // YouTube users sonicdahedgehogrules, ciscovaras, and JetyCityOrange were kind enough to let us include some of their commentary on the “Adventure!” phenomenon. The full videos can be found here, here, and here, respectively.

10:55 // D.I.C.E. is a annual games industry summit held by the Academy of Interactive Arts & Sciences. It is an exclusive event for game developers to get together and discuss the industry, minus the media penetration seen at events like GDC and E3.

13:56 // The huge number of people refreshing the Kickstarter site watching the campaign close in on $1 million caused the site to crash. It was the most activity at one time they had ever experienced.

14:31 // The first day of the Kickstarter campaign set off a media firestorm; coverage of the campaign’s overnight success appeared on virtually every gaming news program and talk show out there. A handful of them are represented here and can be seen in full by clicking on the following links (listed in order of appearance): Novede, Tom Magrino's interview with Tim, Sourcefed, Up at Noon, Anthony Carboni's interview with Greg Rice, Veronica Belmont's interview with Tim.

15:02 // The photoshoot featuring Tim with lots of money was for a GDC awards presentation, and later featured on VentureBeat.com.

15:37 // Dave returns as the Adventure fan “I told you, ADVENTURE GAMES ARE NOT DEAD!”

17:10 // Every Monday the entire Double Fine team gathers to discuss the previous week's events and set new goals for the following days.

17:45 // The final countdown to the end of the campaign was broadcast live from the Double Fine office via Ustream. Simultaneous viewers reached numbers close to 10k.

18:00 // We would have had a Zapruder moment on our hands if that champagne cork had popped two seconds earlier. Watch it frame-by-frame.

21:36 // Cameo appearance by Tim’s daughter Lili.

Care to comment? View this update on Kickstarter →
Unsubscribe from this project's updates with one click
KICKSTARTER

Ivan Eres
10-04-12, 15:28
My suggestions:

0.) Take all the money from the donations

1.) Go back to a stable NC Build, even if it is NC1

2.) Avoid the problems that were build in after that.

3.) Evaluate all changes carefully, and value stability higher than content.

4.) Make it F2P where people can pay for everything to be uber 1337

Rock it.

aKe`cj
10-04-12, 16:03
@ Kirk :

Do you guys have a rough estimate in terms of time and money needed to create a NC successor you can be proud of? :)
Purely hypothetical that is ...

Retaard
10-04-12, 22:18
start donation for neocron3 we in community can help reakktor

http://www.kickstarter.com/

Biglines
11-04-12, 01:08
@ Kirk :

Do you guys have a rough estimate in terms of time and money needed to create a NC successor you can be proud of? :)
Purely hypothetical that is ...
well the estimate for nc:r was 1m, so I'd say a proper nc3 would run in the tens of milions.

zii
11-04-12, 21:17
start donation for neocron3 we in community can help reakktor

http://www.kickstarter.com/

Kickstarter.com is not a donations web site. Its for raising venture capital.
Lets stick to this so that there is a clearly defined project start and end.

The advantage is that KK will either have the funds to complete, or not. Therefore we can either not get it and know from the start, or know that we will get it. Sounds pretty neat to me.

Jaeon
12-04-12, 14:03
well the estimate for nc:r was 1m, so I'd say a proper nc3 would run in the tens of milions.

Maybe not, since all the hard work has been done once, and while alot will have to be redone, it will be easier and faster to do - since the developers have a good base to look at.

I say this because NC3 will be based on the storyline and game mechanics, even if evolved. You know what i mean here i'm sure.

Also, as for texture and modeling, things have evolved alot in the last decade. Programs like ZBrush or Mudbox allow for spectacular maps that can be applied to low poly models.

All it takes is good professionals, since software is not a barrier anymore.

So, you're estimate is kind of grim i'd say. You shouldn't say things like that, or NC3 will never be a reality. :lol:

Biglines
12-04-12, 14:30
Maybe not, since all the hard work has been done once, and while alot will have to be redone, it will be easier and faster to do - since the developers have a good base to look at.

I say this because NC3 will be based on the storyline and game mechanics, even if evolved. You know what i mean here i'm sure.

Also, as for texture and modeling, things have evolved alot in the last decade. Programs like ZBrush or Mudbox allow for spectacular maps that can be applied to low poly models.

All it takes is good professionals, since software is not a barrier anymore.

So, you're estimate is kind of grim i'd say. You shouldn't say things like that, or NC3 will never be a reality. :lol:
note, by running to the tens, meant that I think it would cost around 10m.

I also think you don't really know what's involved in getting a modern model or level created. Especially saying ZBrush or Mudbox make modelling faster? While it is of course faster than poly modelling every detail from scratch (which even modern graphics card wouldn't be able to render), the normal and oa baking that zbrush and mudbox allow are actually an extra step that takes more time, not less.

Then there's the fact that texture resolutions have gone from maybe 256*256 in neocron, to 2k or 4k in modern games, with the same amount of workload increase because it all needs to be more detailed.

For reference, I could model a neocron level model including UV mapping and texturing in about a day from scratch. A modern model would take me about 1-2 weeks.

Now of course I am an amateur, but it shows the difference in time it takes to create modern characters. The same is true for animation. While motion capture makes animation faster, there also has to be way more of it.

Also in neocron now a lot of the non-player models are just recycled and reskinned models, a modern game needs to have far more individual models.

and tbh, even if I was completely wrong and neocron 3 could be made for far less, how does anything I say influence the amount of money KK (nukklear or reakktor) could get or need?

Jaeon
12-04-12, 17:28
note, by running to the tens, meant that I think it would cost around 10m.

I also think you don't really know what's involved in getting a modern model or level created. Especially saying ZBrush or Mudbox make modelling faster?


Lol there you go assuming stuff like you know everything... well you are wrong really.

It does since before you couldn't sculpt polygons the way you can now. Before you had to do it point by point lol.



Then there's the fact that texture resolutions have gone from maybe 256*256 in neocron, to 2k or 4k in modern games, with the same amount of workload increase because it all needs to be more detailed.


Get a DSLR, and a Wacom. You'll see the wonders you can do with those - i know i have :) So realistic and so easy to work with.



For reference, I could model a neocron level model including UV mapping and texturing in about a day from scratch. A modern model would take me about 1-2 weeks.

Well maybe you are doing it wrong mate.



Also in neocron now a lot of the non-player models are just recycled and reskinned models, a modern game needs to have far more individual models.


Yes and no. It all depends on how the engine works and how modular it can be and if models are done smartly, where you assemble in pieces.



and tbh, even if I was completely wrong and neocron 3 could be made for far less, how does anything I say influence the amount of money KK (nukklear or reakktor) could get or need?

Lol you of all lurkers should know the influence of your posts. As long as you're not being a troll, you can spit out smart stuff that people listen to.

So yes you being positive is important. Even if it's only an illusion. Most achievements in life are done by being optimistic and sometimes delusional. :D

Let's not enter a fight here - i don't really enjoy flame wars - but i do care about NC, just like you.

Biglines
12-04-12, 18:55
Note I am not inciting flaming, I truly believe you are simply misinformed. I will try to add sources for everything I say so it's not just "my experience".

Lol there you go assuming stuff like you know everything... well you are wrong really.

I am very aware I don't know everything, and would be more than willing to see any of the articles you get your information from.


It does since before you couldn't sculpt polygons the way you can now. Before you had to do it point by point lol.

Yes, the High resolution models are generally not poly modelled but sculpted instead. These high resolution sculpts however are only used to make ao and normal maps, not the actual model, since no computer would be able to run more than a few of those models at the same time, let alone animate them.

The sculpted characters are used as a base for a low poly character, retopology (this has to generally be done from scratch, to conserve poly counts and make sure polygons bend properly when animated). These are however modelled poly by poly, not sculpted, since sculpting makes your meshloops go wonky and makes animation hell.

http://blenderartists.org/forum/showthread.php?208567-Estimated-time-for-game-character-completion (Shows a professional estimating completetion times for character models, without actual animation).
http://wiki.polycount.com/CategoryCharacterModeling?highlight=%28%5CbCategoryCharacter%5Cb%29 (More info on actualy character modelling for game design).
http://udn.epicgames.com/Three/DevelopmentKitContentCreation.html (Good overview for various ways to go about character creation).
http://ruramuq.blogspot.com/2009/02/topology-principles-for-animation.html (Good overview of why low poly models are still made by hand if they have to be animated (like in games))


Get a DSLR, and a Wacom. You'll see the wonders you can do with those - i know i have :) So realistic and so easy to work with.

I've had SLR's since I was around 10 years old, and dslr's since about the year 2003/2004. I've had a wacom since 2005. I have also textured for various personal projects. And while yes, a wacom is much better than a mouse, and a dslr with proper reference images is awesome, both those tools have been around since the start of 3d gamedesign.

As an example, for neocron you have 1 texture map. The diffuse (or colour) map. For a modern game, you need a Diffuse map, a normal map (though this generally comes from the high poly sculpt), a transparency map, an emission map, a specular map, and if you're doing any special shaders any maps you need for those as well (displacement, paralax, radiosity, environment, detailmaps, gloss etc).
http://udn.epicgames.com/Three/MaterialsAndTexturesHome.html (UDK info on texturing and shading, very interesting, though a lot of engines use different types of shader creation).
http://udn.epicgames.com/Three/CreatingTextures.html

While there are a lot of tools out now that make texturing/shading faster and easier, the huge amount of work that goes into making current models so detailed is regretfully the reason games are so expensive these days.



Well maybe you are doing it wrong mate.

Oh ye, like I said, I'm an amateur, I've never modelled to a deadline or been formally trained. I'd guess that professionals model much faster than me.



Yes and no. It all depends on how the engine works and how modular it can be and if models are done smartly, where you assemble in pieces.

This is in a sense true, modular models like in team fortress are a good way to decrease the workload. You still need enough differentiation though, I don't think neocron has more than 20 character models in total.


Lol you of all lurkers should know the influence of your posts. As long as you're not being a troll, you can spit out smart stuff that people listen to.

So yes you being positive is important. Even if it's only an illusion. Most achievements in life are done by being optimistic and sometimes delusional. :D

Let's not enter a fight here - i don't really enjoy flame wars - but i do care about NC, just like you.
I'll take this as a compliment :p But what I meant was that whether I was right or not, it doesn't influence the amount of money they need. I totally agree that we need to remain positive to be able to fund it through a thing like kickstarter.

And tbh, 10m for a proper mmo that nc3 would need to be to succeed is not a lot of money. Remember they themselves estimate 1m for neocron:reloaded, and that is without having to redo the whole art of the game, the gamedesign, the mechanics, the story, the sound design or the engine.

Kirk said that for nc3, they want to make neocron take place in new tokyo, so the whole world would be different, and a whole new area of the storyline would have to be written.

10m is not a lot of money for a full size mmo these days. I'd ask Kirk to comment on this, but I'd say most people would prefer answers to other questions than the estimate for an nc3 that's unlikely to come unless NC:R is a success.

Jaeon
12-04-12, 20:07
You should probably know them, but in case you don't, check these links out:

http://www.thegnomonworkshop.com/

http://www.gameartisans.org/forums/index.php (http://%20http://www.gameartisans.org/forums/index.php)

http://forums.cgsociety.org/

I used to spend more time in there when i was studying 3d modelling, nowadays i'm more inclined to photography and graphic manipulation. But there's alot of great info, tutorials and showcase work in there.

Also a good place to hire some really good artists by the way (for KK).

Note on Gnomon - the DVD's are quite good, and you can see the workflow used which helps alot.

But maybe more important then knowing how to do it, is to be able to do it.

Modeling, sculpting, painting requires great skill in artwork.

And to make a case in point - If you have a team of good artists that can work fast and together as a machine, assets can be made quickly and effectively, especially nowadays where programs are made to fit each other and workflows have improved vastly (even if more complex, still, more intuitive, automated, compatible, etc).

That's what i'm saying.

aKe`cj
12-04-12, 20:19
Both of you have valid arguments, but the answer to the question I asked can only be given by Kirk - who, as you have mentioned, probably has other priorities right now and other community questions to attend that are less hypothetical.

since I started it.. may I end it here?

topic: kickstarter vote.

:angel:

Jaeon
12-04-12, 21:39
Fair enough. + 10 SL

Biglines
12-04-12, 23:38
ye I know those, gnonom has awesome drawing videos, did a few of them at school.

That said, I do photography, u got a site or something?

Sargas
18-04-12, 12:21
Is this kickstarter campaign for a "real" game or just for a browsergame mentionend in another thread?

Because I won't pay any cent for a browsergame. A browsergame CAN'T resurrect the fun and feelings that are connected to the good old NC1 (and the partially good NC2).

Geist-[uTw]-
18-04-12, 12:32
A browsergame CAN'T resurrect the fun and feelings that are connected to the good old NC1 (and the partially good NC2).
Even a client based game cannot entirely resurrect the old times. The people, who make this game special (for me) are gone and polygons cannot talk.

About your kickstarter question:
So far unknown - if a kickstarter campaign is coming
So far unknown - if NC:R will be only a F2P browsergame or/and client based game

CMaster
18-04-12, 12:34
Is this kickstarter campaign for a "real" game or just for a browsergame mentionend in another thread?

Because I won't pay any cent for a browsergame. A browsergame CAN'T resurrect the fun and feelings that are connected to the good old NC1 (and the partially good NC2).

How about a game that is playable both in browser, and as a downloadable client that is both more stable and better looking than the current NC client? Because that is what is being proposed.

Drachenpaladin
18-04-12, 12:47
and better looking than the current NC client? Because that is what is being proposed.
Would go so far out on that limb here. Better looking means some new weather effects, maybe some glow&blooming effects.
But "better looking" like high res textures and stuff i would not expect.

NC:R will be RELOADED - not redesigned or revamped or what.

MadMeleeFreak
18-04-12, 12:55
How is it that whenever the word comes to "playable in the browser" people panic (obviously thinking of things like OGame, Dark Orbit or Archmage [anyone remember that one from the late 90s?]) and start to kinda rant in here how browsergames suck instead of reading/comprehending the numerous explanations regarding this topic in here.

As someone that has been playing Quake-Live (this is as close as you can get to what is planned for bringing NC into the browser, except for being on a different engine) I can asure you that it is indeed possible to have a decent 3d Game in a browser. Quake-live looks and feels exactly the same as Quake 3 Arena did.

CMaster
18-04-12, 13:00
Would go so far out on that limb here. Better looking means some new weather effects, maybe some glow&blooming effects.
But "better looking" like high res textures and stuff i would not expect.

NC:R will be RELOADED - not redesigned or revamped or what.

Yup. That's all I meant - Unity's rendering engine produces better looking results than Tekktonic.

Sargas
18-04-12, 14:01
-']Even a client based game cannot entirely resurrect the old times. The people, who make this game special (for me) are gone and polygons cannot talk.

[...]

The same to me. If there are not the right people even a otherwise fantastic game could be boring and uninteresting. But for me (and thats only my opinion) a browsergame didn't need to try to be awesome.



How is it that whenever the word comes to "playable in the browser" people panic (obviously thinking of things like OGame, Dark Orbit or Archmage [anyone remember that one from the late 90s?]) and start to kinda rant in here how browsergames suck instead of reading/comprehending the numerous explanations regarding this topic in here.

As someone that has been playing Quake-Live (this is as close as you can get to what is planned for bringing NC into the browser, except for being on a different engine) I can asure you that it is indeed possible to have a decent 3d Game in a browser. Quake-live looks and feels exactly the same as Quake 3 Arena did.

No worry, I didn't panic :)
I just don't like what I've seen until now. But who knows, maybe I will give it a try. But I won't pay money for the kickstarter campaign for a browser version, thats for sure.

Biglines
18-04-12, 15:06
No worry, I didn't panic :)
I just don't like what I've seen until now. But who knows, maybe I will give it a try. But I won't pay money for the kickstarter campaign for a browser version, thats for sure.
I'm just wondering what you think will be different in unity? except of course that the game will run faster, without fatals, and load much more quickly?

Rascil
18-04-12, 15:42
I would support it and I think I can reanimate 2 -8 persons as well :-)

Chuck Norris
18-04-12, 21:22
/yawn so is this happening?

Hippieman
19-04-12, 01:56
Do a campaign like Shadowrun Returns did with yourself, Kirk that is, and a video. Think it would be fairly successful. Possibly extras for certain amounts like art, music and intake benefits etc etc. I might but not that much, least no damn $2500 Euros, maybe pesos.

Selket
19-04-12, 09:56
Even though i earn a chinese salary i would spend (if i can pay with alipay!) 100 euro`s or Dollars.

had lots of fun with NC and would love to see it further devolped even i cant play it^^

Drevious
19-04-12, 11:20
i would donate so much....

Zorky
19-04-12, 18:48
I would donate at least 250$ this is still by far my favorite mmo and the one I played the longest...Today's mmos just don't hold my attention like neocron did.

eNTi
22-04-12, 09:19
kk can't even get a kickstarter campaign running. well maybe kirk has come to the conclusion, that people might have trust issues with kk's track record? who would blame him?

MadMeleeFreak
22-04-12, 10:01
kk can't even get a kickstarter campaign running. well maybe kirk has come to the conclusion, that people might have trust issues with kk's track record? who would blame him?

I guess even if the decision is made to get on kickstarter it can take quite some time to get it started properly. First step being that you have to be in the US to be on kickstarter.com so there either has to be a company founded in the US or you need to find an adequate alternative for europe. Also other's have said already: With Reakktor being bankrupt (don't know if that is the correct term at least they're not able to pay anything anymore) as of 31.03.2012 Kirk certainly still has more pressing/important things in mind at the moment than the future of Neocron.

Also this vote clearly shows two things, there are people able and willing to fund NC:R's production, but there also are not enough veterans left over to reach to goal with just us. So you have to go through some pre-production to show some stuff of. I think it would be a bad idea to try and get the kickstarter thing going showing off footage from NC2. There also has to be some kind of demonstartion of what changes to expect from the change to unity engine.

Also a few people in this thread said they'd like to see a detailed plan on what will change how before they donate. Working out such a plan also can be a time consuming effort.

We simply have to wait until everything's sorted out and Kirk let's us know what's planned. He said it will be soon, that was merely three weeks ago. Taking the overall situation in regard I consider no news = good news anyways, as it means that he is not yet unable to keep NC 2 going and get NC:R on the route.

Richard Slade
14-05-12, 04:45
I'd pay the *shit* out of Neocron Reloaded.

Seriously though, you're doing it wrong.

Just slap it up on Kickstarter and see what happens.

If things go right, you'll get insane media exposure for whatever reason (Like making an MMO on Kickstarter) and all of a sudden you're bathing in money.

Go. For. It!

Zorky
13-06-12, 12:27
I guess even if the decision is made to get on kickstarter it can take quite some time to get it started properly. First step being that you have to be in the US to be on kickstarter.com so there either has to be a company founded in the US or you need to find an adequate alternative for europe.

No kickstarter is worldwide I even seen kickstarter project from my home in Iceland any one can use kickstarter and the payment system goes trough amazon and everyone can make amazon account.

Here is an example http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1318532670/iceland-documentary-with-mary-ellen-mark?ref=home_location

Biglines
13-06-12, 12:43
No kickstarter is worldwide I even seen kickstarter project from my home in Iceland any one can use kickstarter and the payment system goes trough amazon and everyone can make amazon account.

Here is an example http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1318532670/iceland-documentary-with-mary-ellen-mark?ref=home_location
read the rules before u post stuff like that:


Am I eligible to start a Kickstarter project?

To be eligible to start a Kickstarter project, you need to satisfy the requirements of Amazon Payments:

—You are 18 years of age or older.
—You are a permanent US resident with a Social Security Number (or EIN).
—You have a US address, US bank account, and US state-issued ID (driver’s license).
—You have a major US credit or debit card.

Projects must also follow the Kickstarter Guidelines.

http://www.kickstarter.com/help/faq/creators#AmIEligToStarAKickProj

Zorky
13-06-12, 12:48
A Documentary project in Reykjavik, Iceland by Liss LaFleur'

as you can see the project is in Reykjavik Iceland she is not in USA and its been up for a while I even donated so f*ck the rules no one follows them.

psychowar
13-06-12, 12:59
https://dl.dropbox.com/u/16864005/nope.jpg

BTW: Driver's license? Why? Because it's called "kick starter"? So a driver's license for motor bikes should be enough I suppose.

Mighty Max
13-06-12, 13:31
as you can see the project is in Reykjavik Iceland she is not in USA and its been up for a while I even donated so f*ck the rules no one follows them.

You might decide to do just that.

You just don't have to wonder if your kickstarter fund never gets paid because you have put yourself into their mercy with it.

MadMeleeFreak
13-06-12, 13:33
BTW: Driver's license? Why? Because it's called "kick starter"? So a driver's license for motor bikes should be enough I suppose.

No I guess it's an example for a valid sort of ID. I believe in contrast to for instance germany in the US your drivers license is a valid means of identifiying yourself, while in germany only a ID Card (for residents) or a passport (for tourists) are valid, which is why you usually get asked for Drivers license AND ID-Card when you get in a traffic check in germany and MUST have your ID-Card with you at any time once you get 18.

psychowar
13-06-12, 13:48
No I guess it's an example for a valid sort of ID. I believe in contrast to for instance germany in the US your drivers license is a valid means of identifiying yourself, while in germany only a ID Card (for residents) or a passport (for tourists) are valid, which is why you usually get asked for Drivers license AND ID-Card when you get in a traffic check in germany and MUST have your ID-Card with you at any time once you get 18.

Well that's not true. You don't have to take your ID card with you. You just have to own one. Furthermore you do not necessarily need an ID card if you own a german passport.

Anyway. I think it's obvious that I was (trying) to make a joke ;)

Biglines
13-06-12, 15:01
mostly people from other countries use the services of a US based citizen to register their payment account. They still have to use the rules, they just find a way around it. (for your information, that pic that psychowar showed means that this icelandic person is somehow registered as living in America).

If KK wants to go on Kickstarter, they have to still adhere to the rules, and get a US citizen to get the money. Also german law concerning these payments is more difficult, as it is neither a donation or an investment.

In america u can just get the money, as long as u pay the taxes over it, it's much more difficult for KK due to intermediaries, taxes, countries etc.

Danae
13-06-12, 16:09
Which is exactly the case - you must be a legal US resident (or citizen) with a social sercurity number (not neccessarily physically living in the US) - but capable of paying US income taxes on all the earned/unearned income you recieve in any given tax year to start a kickstarter campaign. So while you can have people all over the world working on your project - the campaign starter and person taking the money must be a legal US resident and pay US taxes on all the income they recieve through the Kickstarter funding because presently the Kickstarter program is a US company and they have to follow US law and tax code. They are working on opening it up to other countries, as it states on the Kickstarter web site - but then they will have to set up sites in that country and adhere to the tax code/law of that country.


mostly people from other countries use the services of a US based citizen to register their payment account. They still have to use the rules, they just find a way around it. (for your information, that pic that psychowar showed means that this icelandic person is somehow registered as living in America).

If KK wants to go on Kickstarter, they have to still adhere to the rules, and get a US citizen to get the money. Also german law concerning these payments is more difficult, as it is neither a donation or an investment.

In america u can just get the money, as long as u pay the taxes over it, it's much more difficult for KK due to intermediaries, taxes, countries etc.

Zorky
13-06-12, 21:23
Which is exactly the case - you must be a legal US resident (or citizen) with a social sercurity number (not neccessarily physically living in the US) - but capable of paying US income taxes on all the earned/unearned income you recieve in any given tax year to start a kickstarter campaign. So while you can have people all over the world working on your project - the campaign starter and person taking the money must be a legal US resident and pay US taxes on all the income they recieve through the Kickstarter funding because presently the Kickstarter program is a US company and they have to follow US law and tax code. They are working on opening it up to other countries, as it states on the Kickstarter web site - but then they will have to set up sites in that country and adhere to the tax code/law of that country.

I see then I was wrong Im sorry.....What about straight up paypal donation site with kickstarter goodies but money straight to you ?

Biglines
13-06-12, 22:39
I see then I was wrong Im sorry.....What about straight up paypal donation site with kickstarter goodies but money straight to you ?
german donation law is different from most of the rest of the world, plus I think paypal doesn't like KK anymore.

Kamuix99
14-06-12, 14:33
Excuse me to blow the party, but all your discussion is bout building castles in the sky. If the dog wouldn't have gone to take a shit, he'd would be a bit faster and took the right corner, then he could have catched the rabbit - because a german rabbit runs 1.5km/h slower then an american rabbit bla bla bla. Who cares?


Has anyone of you heard something new about the future of Neocron from Kirk since the sad announcement of Reakktor gone insolvent and the "new info soon" in march?

It's nice to see GMs and Mods taking an active role in Game and Forum, but what's really intersting would be an hint on where the train is heading at the moment. Still searching for investors, found some US resident to do an Kickstarter campaign, found a way to raise funding in Germany?

Kirk, hopefully you can spend us a few lines here. Thanks in advance.

Chuck Norris
15-06-12, 16:30
Excuse me to blow the party, but all your discussion is bout building castles in the sky. If the dog wouldn't have gone to take a shit, he'd would be a bit faster and took the right corner, then he could have catched the rabbit - because a german rabbit runs 1.5km/h slower then an american rabbit bla bla bla. Who cares?


Has anyone of you heard something new about the future of Neocron from Kirk since the sad announcement of Reakktor gone insolvent and the "new info soon" in march?

It's nice to see GMs and Mods taking an active role in Game and Forum, but what's really intersting would be an hint on where the train is heading at the moment. Still searching for investors, found some US resident to do an Kickstarter campaign, found a way to raise funding in Germany?

Kirk, hopefully you can spend us a few lines here. Thanks in advance.

I think they are working on elfquest for iphone before next nc

Drachenpaladin
15-06-12, 17:36
I think they are working on elfquest for iphone before next nc

lol...
http://i0.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/000/131/351/eb6.jpg

Snedex
16-06-12, 13:04
I would happily donate money towards this as I would love to see this game refreshed/reloaded/fixed. Actually postivitely excited by the prospect, would love to roll up my sleeves and lend a hand if could.

What is holding me back is (as others have mentioned) KK's appalling relationship with the community with either no communication for months at a time/zero transparency or worse; promises that are convieniently forgotten after x length of time.

I would want a detailed game plan (I know no spec ever goes to plan), but at least if I knew what they will do with the money and how much time/cash they need. It would put my mind at ease when hammering the donate/get to worKK button.
Be able to hold KK to account or at least a timely response/update if there are delays/issues. Not in a shouty horrible way, but at least get a reason why and how much this will effect/delay delivery (transparency).

If KK do run it, I will probably put some cash towards it, but unless KK genuinely show that they are willing to be transparent and work with the people who are helping them get this off the ground, it will not be as much as I would like to give.

Aerasin
22-06-12, 18:47
I'm interested. Start it up and see where it goes.

Biglines
22-06-12, 19:00
I'm interested. Start it up and see where it goes.
please don't. Please sort out the company, team, ip, plans, and everything first. Starting a kickstarter and seeing where it goes is the worst thing you could do at this point. A kickstarter without a clearly defined game, developer and time schedule is completely counterproductive and would fail miserably. Remember KK (nukklear or reakktor, take ur pick) at this moment is two people, afaik not even either of them a developer (source: nukklear website if they have finished cleaning it after the hack).

MadMeleeFreak
22-06-12, 19:22
please don't. Please sort out the company, team, ip, plans, and everything first. Starting a kickstarter and seeing where it goes is the worst thing you could do at this point. A kickstarter without a clearly defined game, developer and time schedule is completely counterproductive and would fail miserably. Remember KK (nukklear or reakktor, take ur pick) at this moment is two people, afaik not even either of them a developer (source: nukklear website if they have finished cleaning it after the hack).
^
this

Atreides
22-06-12, 19:41
What hack?

MadMeleeFreak
22-06-12, 20:19
What hack?
Good question.
Two weeks ago nukklear.com wasn't reachable for a few hours. But no further info was officially released afaik. Maybe Biglines knows more through the IRC channel.

Biglines
22-06-12, 22:42
nukklear.com was causing virusscan warnings for a brief time, tho i think that was fixed quite quickly.

Selket
23-06-12, 04:37
from that poll it would seem that it would be around 30k. As soon as payday comes i guess it will be more like 10% actually put their money behind their words....doesnt look too good.

flib
23-06-12, 07:11
please don't. Please sort out the company, team, ip, plans, and everything first. Starting a kickstarter and seeing where it goes is the worst thing you could do at this point. A kickstarter without a clearly defined game, developer and time schedule is completely counterproductive and would fail miserably. Remember KK (nukklear or reakktor, take ur pick) at this moment is two people, afaik not even either of them a developer (source: nukklear website if they have finished cleaning it after the hack).
http://suptg.thisisnotatrueending.com/archive/15807166/images/1312408325909.jpg
The way I see it, they only have one shot at this. They'll blow their only chance if they just throw it up to see what happens.


from that poll it would seem that it would be around 30k. As soon as payday comes i guess it will be more like 10% actually put their money behind their words....doesnt look too good.
This poll is only representative of the small group of people on the forums. I'd say 30k from the poll an impressive and encouraging number.

Biglines
23-06-12, 13:49
tho remember that about a third of it goes to taxes first (it's not an investment)

MadMeleeFreak
23-06-12, 16:05
This poll is only representative of the small group of people on the forums. I'd say 30k from the poll an impressive and encouraging number.

Agreed. On the other hand Kirk stated that the development of NC:R would need about 1.000.000€. So they would definetly have to find a lot more backers. To achieve that they NEED to be able to show a detailed overview of planned changes for other NC Veterans aswell as ingame footage of the new version's alpha to get new folks interested.

Anyhow, I fear we'll have to wait and see what happens. I had hopes things would be further developed by now and we'd be in a stage of getting more people interested. I've abbandoned that hope by now.

I'll keep an eye on here but it's time to start looking for alternatives again. Grimlands looks promising (though it has a slightly different setting) and I hope to get into beta there soon.

Kamuix99
24-06-12, 15:04
Agreed. On the other hand Kirk stated that the development of NC:R would need about 1.000.000€. So they would definetly have to find a lot more backers. To achieve that they NEED to be able to show a detailed overview of planned changes for other NC Veterans aswell as ingame footage of the new version's alpha to get new folks interested.

Anyhow, I fear we'll have to wait and see what happens. I had hopes things would be further developed by now and we'd be in a stage of getting more people interested. I've abbandoned that hope by now.

I'll keep an eye on here but it's time to start looking for alternatives again. Grimlands looks promising (though it has a slightly different setting) and I hope to get into beta there soon.

Well, i sum it up as it's about high time for Captain Kirk to wake up.
http://www.bullyfriends.de/pics/surprise027.jpg

He shined with a good information and communication policy before, sadly just when KK broke down. Since then, we haven't heard anything from him regarding the future of the project. I can't help but wonder, whether he went back to old habbits of not communicating with us - despite his statements before.

As with Borderlands, I can't be bothered by any F2P game anymore. Take a look at Black Prophecy which also was F2P from the same publisher as Borderlands -> Gamigo.
Take a look at Earthrise and Masthead studios, an small developer studio like Drago Entertainment - did F2P help them in any way?

Isn't it more like, the whole MMO market is going down the drain due to declining popularity, lack of innovation and inferior game quality? Throwing out money of the window by big investment gambles (aka Games starting F2P which may never even cover developement costs) did become a trend lately and broke the back of many market newcomers.

There is a reason, why the experienced and big players in the market still use either an P2P (WoW, EVE Online) or B2P (Guildwars). They know a very simple fact: You need to know your market+customers and supply them with a good quality product.

Drachenpaladin
24-06-12, 15:54
As with Borderlands, I can't be bothered by any F2P game anymore. Take a look at Black Prophecy which also was F2P from the same publisher as Borderlands -> Gamigo.
The game is called Grimlands. Although it looks quite familiar.^^

Kamuix99
24-06-12, 16:37
The game is called Grimlands. Although it looks quite familiar.^^

Grimlands, Borderlands, Disneylands, whatever :lol:

MadMeleeFreak
24-06-12, 18:38
Well from the prospective feature set both Grimslands AND Otherland sound promising so they are worth a look, the fact they both incorporate many sandbox elements plays a big role in that. That does not mean that I am not sceptical about what Gamigo makes out of it this time around.

The important thing you said, kamuix, is that it is important to know your market and audience and give them what is needed to satisfy them. In this regard Black Prophecy yet is the only failure Gamigo had so far. The rest of their protfolio still does pretty good despite their problems with the hack and all. And unlike Black Prophecy there is huge interest in Grimlands and Otherland allthough they are barely in beta stage.

Also the failure of BP is not Gamigos fault alone. Right from the start before it even was a Gamigo baby it was visible from community feedback that the idea of a Space MMO that is NOT basically a 4X game was a bad idea. The tight focus on action PvP and PvE combined with loot based economy simply narrowed down the prospective player base to the small numbers we saw logging in. And even with the pretty small feature set they weren't able to make even those few features fun and worthwhile mainly because of half the stuff never worked bugfree.

I know saying so afterwards always is easy, but in the end KK would have been better off, if they'd made BP a single player game. A new modern Space Opera in the line of Wing Commander and Freespace. Everyone agreed the story and tutorial were awesome. But they were wasted on this project.

aKe`cj
24-06-12, 19:40
I know saying so afterwards always is easy, but in the end KK would have been better off, if they'd made BP a single player game. A new modern Space Opera in the line of Wing Commander and Freespace. Everyone agreed the story and tutorial were awesome. But they were wasted on this project.


Not surprising, is it?
It was never KKs choice to roll BP into a MMO. It was planned to be a single player game with scripted missions and a strong narrative element to it - so of course, those SP aspects where deemed among the best parts of the game by many.

The failure of BP is imo the direct result of the really stupid decision by 10tacle to turn BP into an MMO.

MadMeleeFreak
24-06-12, 20:00
The failure of BP is imo the direct result of the really stupid decision by 10tacle to turn BP into an MMO.

So true. What I wonder is: After the 10T bankruptcy, did Reakktor think about going back to the initial plan? Granted it would have meant to throw away the time that went into making it MMO, but a SP Game might have been easier to find a publisher for, I would think.

CMaster
24-06-12, 20:26
Not surprising, is it?
It was never KKs choice to roll BP into a MMO. It was planned to be a single player game with scripted missions and a strong narrative element to it - so of course, those SP aspects where deemed among the best parts of the game by many.

The failure of BP is imo the direct result of the really stupid decision by 10tacle to turn BP into an MMO.


Huh, now that IS interesting.

aKe`cj
24-06-12, 21:36
So true. What I wonder is: After the 10T bankruptcy, did Reakktor think about going back to the initial plan? Granted it would have meant to throw away the time that went into making it MMO, but a SP Game might have been easier to find a publisher for, I would think.


In theory, you might have a point, but looking at this from a pragmatic point of view, they had to get new funding ASAP after 10tacle went down the drain and that ment selling a product to a publisher that was still very much WIP.

My view on this may be distorted, but I dont think it would have been possible for Kirk to not take advantage of gamigo's pronounced interest in aquiring BP. At the very least this allowed the company to continue without layoffs...

Of course, this did not solve the initial problem: that BP was never ment to end up as an MMO and was completely underfinanced for such an effort and even more so with time and money long spent on areas that were less critical for its F2P MMO future.

There sure are many issues for which KKs management is to blame as well (more so with NC than BP in my view) - but these sequential decisions by KK on the way to BPs failure, I can totally understand and agree with.

... anyway: this is a thread about NC and it's glorious future, not the fukked up past ;)

MadMeleeFreak
24-06-12, 22:51
... anyway: this is a thread about NC and it's glorious future, not the fukked up past ;)

You're right. I'm eagerly looking forward to any official news. Even if the news just was that they are still preparing to start a crowdfunding campaign (while looking for alternatives for kickstarter or waiting for kickstarter to be available to european project starters aswell), along with maybe some new screens, that would be awesome.

As I said though my hopes for getting any news soon are little. My guess is we won't see any news until after the gamescom in August.

garyu69
27-06-12, 10:56
I'm in, sure I could find a few more people who would be in too.

switchnine
04-07-12, 02:32
It's been about 5 years since I stepped foot in Neocron. I only checked back here to dig up a short story I wrote in Garriot's Diner. But, now that I'm here I have to say something.

I totally agree with Jaeon's early comment on this topic --email former members! I might not have been around for a long long time, but if I'd got an email about this, I would have come on here to show my support. I have a lot of fond memories of the Dome of York, my first vehicle, stepping out into the wasteland, collecting trophies, picking off unsuspecting runners outside military base with my silent hunter... I sure as hell would throw a few quid your way, if you guys were willing to breathe new life into it all.

Good luck to you.

Riot Dawn
12-08-12, 15:46
Kickstarter Win/Looses Ranking Estimation* on TechCrunch (http://techcrunch.com/2012/07/16/allegation-kickstarter-is-still-hiding-data-about-failed-projects/)

*Full Analysis not possible due to KS data politics, see article, scroll down for estimation

Hoppimike
10-09-12, 04:27
I'm pretty poor atm, but as much as possible. This would be about €25 tops right now, but I could give more in future maybe :)

necrocon
17-12-14, 05:58
look at this thread...

Bifrost
17-12-14, 11:25
Please do not bump old threads