Discussion thread for Kirk's replies [Archive]

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Biglines

21-02-12, 02:47

Please keep any discussion or replies in this thread, to keep the other thread as clean as possible. Of course properly formatted questions can be proposed in the other thread.

The answers from the other thread:
http://forum.neocron.com/showpost.php?p=2179151&postcount=11
http://forum.neocron.com/showpost.php?p=2179152&postcount=12

flib

21-02-12, 05:17

I was never so involved in Neocron or better its community even though I was with Reakktor from 1999 on with a small break. But by the time I had the chance to take care of it properly there was either the option to shut it down or to keep it alive somehow. I chose the latest. Because I think Neocron is unique and it always will be, this is also the reason we have made the NC3 picture and started writing a unique story heading towards New Tokyo. With Neocron we did things many other developers copied (mainly without knowing that we have invented those things).I know this was speculated about before, but I think this is the first confirmation that NC3 will have to do with New Tokyo.
I, for one, welcome our new, Japanese overlords.

Because I do not lie and I will simply do not ask anybody to lie for me or do you mean when we went to the US last year when I have promised my answers? Well I simply forgot about it…. Sorry. :lol:

Doc Holliday

21-02-12, 14:18

Wow. what a read. Community. you just got put on notice. Its time to put money where mouth is for one and also to actually become a community again and get your collective thinking caps on for suggestions on how/what/when/where/who and how we can save this beloved game. :)

Look at it as a call to arms (sorry for the wow reference but i cant think of a better analogy)

I personally dont easily forget that we waited for ever for answers on this whole subject but believe me after getting such brutal honesty in that above thread i can certainly forgive. It certainly paints a clear picture as to the strife they have had to deal with and the reasons for not having been able to develop the game any further than it is.

I cant say much more right now on the subject other than to say i would definitely like to lend support in some way. most likely it will be financially as i am neither a talented artist or a gifted tech savvy programmer.

final thoughts for you all. If its come out correctly take a look at my signature. then think about the pinocchio sigs and all the other crap that got flung around.

I dont think i would want anyone else in charge of making this right.

Brammers

21-02-12, 16:04

One thing that Kirk mentioned in his replies was funding NC2/3 via Kickstarter like Double Fine did.

http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/66710809/double-fine-adventure

I've got to say, it's an interesting way to fund a game.

L0KI

21-02-12, 17:07

To save this game, it needs players. It needs to be active like it once was so investors see the demand for the niche that it is!

I'm re-installing the client right now.

William Antrim

21-02-12, 19:42

To save this game, it needs players. It needs to be active like it once was so investors see the demand for the niche that it is!

I'm re-installing the client right now.

Holy whack unlyrical lyrics Loki... youre FUCKING RIGHT.

I am deployed at the moment but I am posted home in about.... hmm 6 weeks. I will be around more too.

I have a side project to finish too. I want a job with KK, unpaid.

Chuck Norris

22-02-12, 01:23

open up more old side missions, make it easier for lowbies to get rares *stimulus*, make new dungeon/loots out of DoY, reopen and change some of the closed content Lab-volcano- ect more "new dungeons", people cream their jeans for content now matter how basic or crappy it is!

Dont just nerf stuff go spawn some crap random "easter eggs" or whatever give people a reason to be online, besides sandwiched out PVP

Eckhart

22-02-12, 01:28

There are a lot of answers that Kirk has provided here which can be dissected at will by the community. However, whilst reading through those answers there's one in particular that jumps out at me as most important - not to do with hopes or tentative plans for the future, but instead something tangible that I think needs recognising.

This is a quote that I've posted elsewhere during a separate discussion on the matter, but feel it's also worth saying here on the offchance that Kirk sees it - as it's something I think should be recognised publically.

I would like to mention whilst we're talking about this that Kirk also gives an answer to my long standing query as to how running NC2 is still viable for KK. Namely, that it isn't, and that he's been paying for the servers himself out of his own pocket for several years now. That's incredibly commendable as far as I am concerned, especially when he knows the state the game is in. Clearly he's very committed to the brand, and for nothing else he deserve a lot of respect for that. Servers are not cheap.
I don't know about anyone else, but even whilst watching the game from the sidelines for the last few years I always had made the assumption that KK as an organisation were using some of their profits from BP to keep things running. To find out that's not the case is very surprising, and I think everyone in the community needs to put aside their gripes about the current state of the game in order to recognise the fact that Kirk has plowed mounting amounts of his own money into providing a service for what few remain playing with absolutely no hope of any return in the near future.

I do not know of any other developer who would do such a thing for their own games confronted with such a situation, and that says a lot. It deserves recognising, and it deserves praise imo.

Chuck Norris

22-02-12, 01:49

well how much was he paying himself as the CEO first of all, but ya that was nice of him, although running a popular forum costs more then running the hamster servers/forums of NC imo these days.

I just hope they can refocus on NC since obviously BP is well ya, hopfully its not a complete fading out post :( :( need to get this bitch (neocron) on steam for 3bucks! youll get so many damn players over night your servers will shit

Riddle

22-02-12, 02:01

need to get this bitch (neocron) on steam for 3bucks! youll get so many damn players over night your servers will shit

Don't kill our poor hamster.......he's the last one left alive!!!

MadMeleeFreak

22-02-12, 11:41

Good to finally get some answers. Here are some thoughts:

The Kickstarter Idea sounds good. But as Kirk said you might have only one shot there. My opinion is go with the NC 2 revamp. Show off what the game could look like on a new engine like Unity (had a look at it a while ago, looks like a good and solid engine and has all in one regarding MMO needs as far as I could see). It's in comparison to a new NC 3 the less cost intensive. And we must be realistic here: NC is a niche product so getting a lot of funders beyond this community might be difficult. But apart from the SciFi setting on the feature-wise side it is in some regards still years ahead of 90% of the existing MMO-Crowd, Crafting/Economy System and Player-Housing are just the two most prominent to name here. Also the Multifaction setting is something you rarely see but really has a big part in NC's special touch.

Then on the Free2Play Option: As Kirk said it's no secret that most of us old farts don't like the shit that's going on with 90% of the F2P games. The Problem is that especialy in game so focused on PvP as NC is the F2P Model is hard to balance and in the long run the constant pressure to pay as much as your competitors do to even keep the chance of beating them will cost you more than it will get you. Black Prophecy just was your hands on example to see that. The shop was misconcepted from the start and thus never really fired off.

The only acceptable F2P examples out there are those that offer F2P AND Subscription, but to my knowledge none of them is really PvP heavy so I have no idea how good they are balance wise. Anyways one of the reason I actually like those games is that they openly tell you what they toned down or stripped out of the game for the F2P customers.

Still I think if you restrict yourself to boosts only indirectly influencing combat (crafting/modding/xp-gain boosts/rare-dropchance increase) and the sale of additional charslots NC can work very well as a F2P game.

Still I'd prefer subscription for several reasons: For one it helps keeping most of the kids out. But more importantly I don't need to worry about anything after setting up the subscription. No playnning of what to buy this month from the shop from my monthly gaming budget. No flaming about how much the other guy payed to win.

One thing though that I think is very important and will become even more important over the coming years: Be on Steam. If your game is up there, looks even remotely interesting and maybe is even sold in a sales event you get tons of sales. Just by popping up in the list of new arrivals to the shop in the week of release you get millions of views on your game.

I'm not sure if they are doing it for subscription also but for their F2P branch the steam service offers payment through steam which is just great.

MrTrip

23-02-12, 03:04

I like how Kirk has mentioned he would open source Neocron if it all fell apart. This gives high hopes for the future and we all know now that Neocron will never die.

I just wish we could get a Neocron Classic server going, heck, I'd even front the bill on that if we could get a US server.

Biglines

23-02-12, 12:06

Then on the Free2Play Option: As Kirk said it's no secret that most of us old farts don't like the shit that's going on with 90% of the F2P games. The Problem is that especialy in game so focused on PvP as NC is the F2P Model is hard to balance and in the long run the constant pressure to pay as much as your competitors do to even keep the chance of beating them will cost you more than it will get you. Black Prophecy just was your hands on example to see that. The shop was misconcepted from the start and thus never really fired off.

The only acceptable F2P examples out there are those that offer F2P AND Subscription, but to my knowledge none of them is really PvP heavy so I have no idea how good they are balance wise. Anyways one of the reason I actually like those games is that they openly tell you what they toned down or stripped out of the game for the F2P customers.

Crimecraft, APB and Global agenda are three examples of f2p with a subscription AND a cashshop. in crimecraft the subscription is loot/xp increase and a monthly stipend of cashshop currency. in global agenda they used to have clan vs clan battles in the subcription, but now subscription is only xp, loot and money boost, though every single item except the purely decorative can be bought with ingame money. The point being that the only difference between non-paying and paying in these games is the rate at which they level, and the ease with which they get the weapons. Free players can get all the weapons, it just takes them 2-3 times as long (offset by leveling slower so gaining more experience before the endgame).

note, I would much prefer neocron 3 to be subcription based, but if KK can't get a publisher for a p2p game (p2p games need far more customer relations and advertising than neocron and KK have ever managed to do), I'd much prefer them to actually work from the start with the assumption of a f2p game with subscription (freemium), and design the world to work well around that, completely unlike BP.

Kamuix99

23-02-12, 14:54

If the question is, whether to have a Cash Shop in the game or not, for me there is nothing that speaks against a cash shop, where people can buy special - non battle deciding - services, like unique furniture for their appartment, NPC sales clerk for their crafter ingame store, advertisal signs with their name on it, or their own stickers and logo which they can put on their crafted items.

I'm strictly against F2P, though. For a good game everyone is able to pay at least 5€ a month, you'll buy two Big Mac or a pack of Smokes less - which also supports your health :lol: Monthly subscriptions are not only a reward for all the work and efforts which Devs and Publishers do, it's also an threshold against morons and imature scum which plague most all F2P MMOs.

If the business model of "F2P lure to catch some flies for P2W" works with other games, nice for them. But I think we can have something better and I don't want to read forum posts about balance breaking items in item shop, while the game is F2P... :rolleyes:

Setlec

23-02-12, 18:01

Brammers

23-02-12, 18:05

@Setlec - It's here - http://forum.neocron.com/showpost.php?p=2179152&postcount=12 Under section F Question 2 :)

2. Will you make the game open source if you have no longer wish to run it yourself?

Yupp. But there are still plans.

Setlec

23-02-12, 18:18

thanks Brammers already read it (just after my post though). that's was a good reading shit loads of questions answered!

daughterolilith

23-02-12, 19:25

*hugggs all*

gamefreak

24-02-12, 19:09

Damn, I should've posted my questens before Kirk answered, got to wait another year now -.-

zii

26-02-12, 13:22

P2P allows one to predict the revenue as a subscription is regular & f2p is based on a whim.
However, I am content to Support whichever decision makes business sense.

Until then, please tell me how I can help either by donations or by other methods.

I am playing less because I have an infant strapped to me... juggeling NC and a baby is an as yet unacquired art.

Biglines

26-02-12, 13:35

p2p doesn't allow prediction either, you have no idea whether people will pay for the game in the first place, whether you can actually keep the people playing, how many people are willing to keep spending, and because every player HAS to play, the population is completely dependent on p2p players, and a weaning subscription rate accelerates other people leaving.

a f2p with freemium subcription system can do the exact same prediction of how many people will pay for the game (or just as innaccurately predicted), but the population isn't dependent on how many subscribers there are, so that when some people leave, this doesn't influence other people to leave either, because there's still this massive amount of free players to keep the game fun.

The good thing about a f2p freemium system is that even if you want to take it easy a month and not play as much, you can still keep the game playing, while a p2p system would require you to activate your subscription again for at least a month.

That said, there are of course a lot of problems with f2p, such as easy cheating due to no consquences of getting banned (unless identification is made difficult), lot's of kiddies who in other games might ruin game rounds, though that last item is in fact not a problem in neocron, as ganking is the whole point of the game, and organized clan battles (opwars) don't suffer from freebie noobism because they are organized by clans.

f2p has an incredibly bad reputation because of pure cashshop based games such as maplestory and BP :p, but good f2p systems can completely enhance the player experience beyond anything a p2p system can do.

I'm not saying neocron 3 should be f2p, but neocron 2 can most definately profit from it as long as the game isn't transformed into a cashshop sweatshop.

oh and get on mumble :p

Kamuix99

26-02-12, 15:35

I disagree that F2P can keep the game fun for the number of players, while P2P can't. When people only play something, because it's free, they don't enjoy the quality of the game but rather the "i don't have to pay aspect". If such people stay or not, is totally irrelevant. They'll leave latest by then, when they realize they need support of other players for crafting, implanting, repairing, etc.

For an potential NC2.X an fee of 5 Euro or so ain't no big deal. People spend more for other useless stuff a month. And the MMO-gypsies which even don't want to spend that small amount - well, I'm sure there are other games (China grinder) which will happily welcome them. We don't

Biglines

26-02-12, 15:37

ghehe ur starting to get amusing again

Kamuix99

26-02-12, 16:30

ghehe ur starting to get amusing again

If you find differing opinions from your own amusing, then you're welcome ;)

Kamuix99

01-03-12, 20:30

For some of you, this might be interesting.

As it has been anounced yesterday, Gamigo is open for sales by the Axel Springer publishing group. Shortly after that, there were reports about an account/database-hack incident at Gamigo. Officially Gamigo shut down all servers, websites and account-access to investigate the situation. Also today several Gamigo services and forums can't be reached, including Black Prophecy.

Info in German (http://www.oglabs.de/news/22349-gamigo-spieleserver-weiter-nicht-erreichbar)

I'd say, Kirk and KK bailed just out in time before HIOB made his strike :lol:

Drachenpaladin

01-03-12, 21:23

Kamuix99

01-03-12, 23:55

Dunno, I checked the BP ever now and then, for following up the playerbase response towards KKs insolvency. If that problem takes already that long, then they must be in some serious sh*t.

Drachenpaladin

02-03-12, 01:37

Dunno, I checked the BP ever now and then, for following up the playerbase response towards KKs insolvency. If that problem takes already that long, then they must be in some serious sh*t.

If i understood correct it started on a different board, so i wouldn't necessarily connect it to BP/KK/whatever.
Gamigo is just a good target for kiddies and trolls in general, scapegoat and so on ^^

Chuck Norris

02-03-12, 04:30

now that KK isnt with them can we talk smack about bp!?!? hopefully it was a ex staff members stealing new engines lmao jk

FireWarrior

02-03-12, 11:22

Learning that Kirk has been paying for or game on his own for this long should really be reason enough for us to take a deep breath and accept that we, as the community, is the only thing that can make Neocron truly live again. Do we really need more information than that?

I would gladly support a Kickstarter-type funding system to get this game rolling again, even if it only helps Kirk keep the servers running. And I hope I am not the only one.
We need to stop demanding patches and content and instead support the developers and moderators as they go through all this crap. If they can make it out the other side, I know I for one will be happy to support this game as much as I can.

A Kickstarter type fund would allow us old crusty veterans to put our money where are mouths are for once.

Brammers

02-03-12, 12:32

Chuck Norris

02-03-12, 12:35

I would consider putting some money towards a Kickstarter type fund, however if there isn't going to be any patches, I'm not going to consider it.

The game really needs patches for the exploits and bugs, I've seen enough "Sandwich of the day" threads and post around here.
Looks like they called it

https://www.facebook.com/pages/Save-Reakktor-Spread-the-Word/194474483990280?sk=app_202746096443643

Brammers

02-03-12, 13:05

Looks like they called it

https://www.facebook.com/pages/Save-Reakktor-Spread-the-Word/194474483990280?sk=app_202746096443643

30 days left to Doomsday? That doesn't sound good at all.

nabbl

02-03-12, 13:10

As I said on Facebook:

I WANT TO KNOW WHAT THIS FCUKING COUNTER IS FOR!!!

Jodo

02-03-12, 13:18

Is it when Jord officially starts? Some uber event planned perhaps.

BaDDaSS

02-03-12, 13:50

What an interesting read.

Personally, I think KK would be better off crowdfunding a NC1 revamp, over trying to crowdfund NC3 - which would no doubt be far more expensive.

That is, unless they manage to acquire investment, then NC3 would be the preferable option.

flib

02-03-12, 20:25

john irons

02-03-12, 21:44

well if kk is going down the shitter then for the love of god please release the source for nc1 like many other game developers have done with old games.

Chuck Norris

02-03-12, 21:47

well if kk is going down the shitter then for the love of god please release the source for nc1 like many other game developers have done with old games.
AMEN!

Let the emu culture do what you couldnt

MrTrip

02-03-12, 22:47

well if kk is going down the shitter then for the love of god please release the source for nc1 like many other game developers have done with old games.

QFT! *5characters*

Jaeon

03-03-12, 10:41

In my opinion, the best thing would be to port the NC2 content to Unity (or something else), as Kirk mentioned. They would be able to develop a new infrastructure, rather than just putting more band-aids on the problem, but wouldn't have to go through all the trouble of developing new assets.

Sounds like a good plan to me.

I'd also really like to see fixed the damned netcode.

Even with an empty server there are so many problems with it. :/

I've played other F2P games where you could be for hours on dungeons with a team of 5 and everything would register near perfectly without lag at all. The experience is just awesome.

I think that NC has it all. I love this game. Years go by and i keep returning here like i haven't on any other mmo. And i'm not really a PvP'er (where's the fun in that with all the cheaters..).

IMO The next move should be just like what flib said: It would be best to port the game to a stable engine that has good support and is easy to develop.

Because adding more patches is just like building more floors on a building with about to collapse infrastructures...

How much would something like this cost? Porting to Unity?

flib

03-03-12, 18:21

Sounds like a good plan to me.

I'd also really like to see fixed the damned netcode.

Even with an empty server there are so many problems with it. :/Well, porting to a new engine would mean it would have completely different netcode! :)

How much would something like this cost? Porting to Unity?Above one million.

or example we have made tests with Unity and Neocron assets. And it worked pretty well! But making a revamped version of Neocron is also a question of money.

Setting up this basic version would cost above one million and would take probably round about one year with the current team we have.