Paid contribution to NC? [Archive] - Official Neocron Forum

L0KI

08-09-11, 18:09

I would only pay KK once they get what they promised finished. I would however be willing to buy developers that are working on it in their free time a few beers (figuratively speaking), through some kind of paypal donation system (or any payment provider that accepts paypal, since I don't have a credit card).

Wait for Kirk's view on donations. I believe it's a little more difficult to do this in Germany due to their tax laws on it. I'm sure he will clarify when he gets chance to respond.

However, I had the same idea Biglines, and I'd happily donate.

William Antrim

08-09-11, 19:22

Ok

I'm all up for that.

I just thought we could possibly get something going here. If pay to play got rid of cheaters I would be happy with that at least.

Mr_Snow

08-09-11, 20:21

Well since KK is solvent again they shouldnt have a problem getting paypal set again so should be able to get subs running again. This will mean KK can justify giving resources to the game and would also show that they can get subscribers to the game which would help when presenting the plan for NC3 to a publisher which I presume would be gamigo as I would be surprised if they bought a stake in the company and didnt get a "you can only publish through us" clause built into the contract.

This would have to happen after an anti-cheat patch as most people wont be willing to pay when people can cheat ingame, myself included.

Kamuix99

08-09-11, 22:32

The best way is to bring Neocron back to Pay2Play along with a practical subscription method, not C2P.

I've said it once, I've said it twice and I will say it again as many times as necessary. NC still is better then Fallen Earth, Earthrise, and whatever else current MMORPG/FPS on the market. Some people pay around 15,00 EUR a month for just mining in EVE Online. 5,00 EUR then seems more then reasonable for a revived Neocron.

Doc Holliday

09-09-11, 06:57

if its 5 euros again im gonna get another account and have the slots to play with. yeah i would love to donate something too. im inclined to think its a chicken and egg scenario regards the anticheat situation. maybe they need money in first to justify the work to be done or maybe they do the work first then see the money.

either way im prepared to go on record and say yes i would be willing to put money in (more than 5 euros too. if i can make a decent donation i would do) and lets hope we can resuscitate this game. i think if someone wants to pm some of the guys from the bp forum and let them know when more concrete info comes available they would be appreciative of it. I know the ex NCers over there would be curious to say the least.

Chuck Norris

09-09-11, 07:45

I'd pay whatever they want to get NC1 back on new DX *boing*, just thinking about those Kamis and old Move-On :angel: :angel:

William Antrim

09-09-11, 11:14

Personally I think if cheaters had to pay they would go elsewhere.

zii

09-09-11, 12:00

I should happily donate, so long as its for an anti-cheat patch. A patch that not only addresses the current hacks used, but addresses hacks that are used in similar games and that could be used in NC.

In fact, I paid bi-annually for NC until two months ago, when my CC expired and I could not get Click2Pay to add the new one. I paid from 2002 until July 2011.

Biglines

09-09-11, 13:54

Personally I think if cheaters had to pay they would go elsewhere.
no, cheaters were around long before payment was stopped. That said, a proper payment system would take care of at least one thing, people would have to be identified, and as such it would be harder for cheaters who have been banned to come back.

Brammers

09-09-11, 13:59

I'm going to wait on what Kirk says before saying anything.

William Antrim

09-09-11, 14:58

no, cheaters were around long before payment was stopped. That said, a proper payment system would take care of at least one thing, people would have to be identified, and as such it would be harder for cheaters who have been banned to come back.

If you go on Youtube you can find evidence of cheaters in NC1. I know of 2 personally who cheated in NC1 and have seen videos of more on Pluto. One quite prominent forum user was banned due to circumstances (which i am not fully versed in) which came to light around his posting of videos on youtube of people cheating. I cant comment on that individual case suffice to say he knew there were cheaters and whether or not he used the programs etc is another thing.

Anyway that said there have been cheaters in nc for eons.

What I meant by my post was - if Credit card payments etc came back into NC it would suddenly make it a much less attractive game for them to play. There will always be cheaters in games, the same as there are in sports and many other things where people compete. If we cant get an anti cheat patch up and running in the short term then switching back on the money side of things (subject to various legal ramifications) is one such deterrent to get rid of a few of them. Certainly it ought to get rid of a few of the younger ones by virtue of the fact they dont have their own credit cards.

Whether it will work or not is another thing and no i am not suggesting that ALL cheaters are 12 yr olds etc I just think its a step in the right direction to make NC something akin to its former glory.

p.s Id be happy paying 10 euros a month for a couple of accounts no worries.

Neallys

09-09-11, 16:11

I'm going to wait on what Kirk says before saying anything.

But.. but it would be good to have your opinion before 2015 :D

CMaster

09-09-11, 16:57

It's a possible idea, but I'd be hesitant to contribute, as KK have a history of doing most of the work, but not actually implementing it. So I'd want to see something with some certainty done along these lines:

Community come up with a list of things they want doing
Agreed list is sent to KK
KK come back with how much of that is actually achievable, with a sensible price
Community raise the cash and provide
KK actually do the work agreed, regardless of if it works out costing them slightly less or more than the quote

Of course, this might not be possible at all. If the entire company is contracted to work for Gamigo, then there's nobody available to be paid for other projects.

Neallys

09-09-11, 18:12

Community come up with a list of things they want doing

This is where your plan fails.
I'm sorry but Neocron2 hit a wall because Reakktor actually listened to what people wanted, we ended up with.. this version of the game.

Tratos

09-09-11, 18:36

This is where your plan fails.
I'm sorry but Neocron2 hit a wall because Reakktor actually listened to what people wanted, we ended up with.. this version of the game.
I think by that CMaster means a list of Community priorities rather than a list of specifics.

Things like:
Anti-cheat patch New content PvE Fixes/Improvements
The idea makes sense, especially if we're only going to get a very limited about of developer time.

Iceflower

09-09-11, 19:03

Short answer: Yes, sure.

Long answer: I would even pay the original fee again just to have Neocron around, even in the current lousy, butchered state just for the sake of having at least one MMO left that truly offers choices. Yes, with SWG gone for good soon, I am really that desperate. Others are not that desperate, and their suggestions and demands are what should be taken into account by KK when it comes to payment / donations / whatever. Just saying that I would pay even the original fee again regardless.

CMaster

09-09-11, 19:09

Yeah, I don't mean, "Slasher RoF adjusted by 5%"
I mean something like:
Prevention/detection of all known cheats
Removal/Detection of known exploits (where practical, safespotting isn't going to get fixed without a deep combat overhaul)
Minor rebalancing (something crude along the lines of reducing the burst weapon bonus slightly, doubling vehicle weapon damage)
Only if availableImplementation of any effectively completed but unavailable content

Neallys

09-09-11, 20:48

Thought it was obvious enough this has to be fixed ASAP.
But I doubt a patch will fix everything, although detection of false clients connecting throughout Neocron would help a lot.

That and PvE yeah, excellent point.

hybok

10-09-11, 02:41

I'm with brammers.. nothing in this thread needs to be discussed until we have some real answers from kirk.

wishful thinking is not something i contribute in.. cold hard fact and progress is what im looking for.

Ashley003

04-10-11, 15:52

I already pay about £5 a month subscription for Neocron but I'd be glad to donate more, love this game. :D

Biglines

04-10-11, 16:01

I already pay about £5 a month subscription for Neocron but I'd be glad to donate more, love this game. :D
ah, someone else who can actually demand answers since he's actually paying for it :p

Ashley003

04-10-11, 16:49

ah, someone else who can actually demand answers since he's actually paying for it :p

Does nobody else actually pay monthly then? 'Cause I've heard people say that it's free to play but I've always paid monthly.

Biglines

04-10-11, 16:50

i havent paid for a few years. But I can only use paypal so even if I wanted to I couldn't.

Ashley003

04-10-11, 16:53

i havent paid for a few years. But I can only use paypal so even if I wanted to I couldn't.

So it depends on how you buy the game? I bought it online for £20 through Pay By Cash and PayPal in PBC and still have to pay £5 a month.

I mean I don't really mind, the game is worth more than £5 a month. :D

Setlec

04-10-11, 19:25

Ashley003

05-10-11, 01:27

no the C2P is a pain in the ass for non EU ppl! So US forbids the use of Click2Play because of online gaming (or something like that), Paypal was used to avoid this issue for non EU. ever since ex-KK onwer went insolvent paypal decided to cut their money entry, so KK made the game free for paypal subscribers only.

Ah, so only non-Europeans actually don't pay? Even in England C2P doesn't work which made making my account a fair bit harder, I believe it only works or only works properly in Germany, correct me if I'm wrong. :P

Drachenpaladin

05-10-11, 02:43

Not really, i'm german and my subscription got canceled quite some time ago and i can still log in.

Biglines

05-10-11, 12:29

im dutch, afaik its the americans that cant use c2p

Dribble Joy

05-10-11, 13:57

The problem is that KK only - and can only - work on NC in their spare time as they are contracted to work on BP.
Contributions for outside office hours work could run foul of the developer's contracts, tax laws or a myriad of other legal issues.

If it is possible, then I would be up for it though.

Drachenpaladin

05-10-11, 14:24

The good old hamper is still an option...

Biglines

05-10-11, 14:29

The problem is that KK only - and can only - work on NC in their spare time as they are contracted to work on BP.
how do you know this? the problem is that they don't answer questions like that. I know from my business classes that the primary objective of any company is to continue existing (not making short term money), so from a business perspective, working only on BP seems like a very bad decision. That said, due to Kirk utterly ignoring us yet again, we can only speculate, but not state things like they are facts.

Dribble Joy

05-10-11, 15:34

Phone Call. (http://www.techhaven.org/neocron/news/dear-kk-kirk-update-no-2..html)

Biglines

05-10-11, 16:13

ye I meant that as well, it doesn't say they can't, it just says it's not that simple. Being only paid to work on bp is kind of obvious... who would pay them to work on neocron? the point in development is to develop your own software, for future reward.

Dribble Joy

05-10-11, 17:55

I could be misinterpreting, but seems to say that KK is being contracted to work on BP by those funding them, and they wouldn't want them working on a project that are not paying for - and one that has no current revenue for either them or KK- during work hours.

BaDDaSS

05-10-11, 18:36

I wonder if we launched a Kickstart project or something, how many pledges we could get.

I reckon with all the NC fans, we'd be able to pull a decent investment together.

KK won't be working full-time on BP forever...

Setlec

05-10-11, 19:10

i was thinking the very same thing, Badass. but it would be kinda obvious that the kickstart project would be for NC3. No NC 2.2 patch/balance/update would be included in this project.

CrushOr

05-10-11, 23:23

Biglines

05-10-11, 23:33

We would need someone to set up something like a trust or a llc that the kickstarter project would fund which in turn could be used to either purchase equity in KK (unlikely) or buy a bunch of shares (is KK on any exchange? and are they willing to issue shares if needed)
as far as I can tell, Kirk owns the majority of the company (which afaik is why he's ceo), gamigo owns a small percentage, and the company that got them out of the insolvency prolly owns the rest.

Doc Holliday

06-10-11, 05:23

as far as I can tell, Kirk owns the majority of the company (which afaik is why he's ceo), gamigo owns a small percentage, and the company that got them out of the insolvency prolly owns the rest.

its a little bit more than a small percentage. forgive me for not knowing the exact amount but i "think" its a sizeable chunk maybe even close to 30%

Biglines

06-10-11, 10:59

ye, i just meant not a majority, they dont own KK, can't tell it what to do unless they have a specific contract.

Dribble Joy

06-10-11, 12:24

Biglines

06-10-11, 12:27

think being able to take it away would depend on what contract they have with concerns to the development, but ye, it means KK has no control over it.

(Which as far as I'm concerned makes betting it all on that one horse, which they dont even control anymore, is stupid, they're working on a game that's not theirs, yet have a promising future cashcow which they don't support properly)

Dribble Joy

06-10-11, 12:52

Given their situation (the insolvency of 10T), I don't think they had much choice at the time.

Ashley003

06-10-11, 14:30

Here. (http://massively.joystiq.com/2011/01/27/gamigo-buys-black-prophecy-buys-into-reakktor-media/)

And here. (http://blackprophecy.gamigo.com/forum/showthread.php?t=9571)

Which basically means gamigo has a degree of board control over KK and can take BP away from them at a moment's notice.... so they pretty much have to do what they're told or they go out of business.

Gamigo sound like real dickheads if they control KK like that. Didn't Reakktor actually develop BP, making it their hard work, not Gamigo's?

Also, what's a kickstart project?

Brammers

06-10-11, 15:16

Gamigo sound like real dickheads if they control KK like that. Didn't Reakktor actually develop BP, making it their hard work, not Gamigo's?

Yes, Reakktor did all the development. Gamigo didn't come on board until several months before closed beta started. (Early 2010 I think) They had more of a publisher role, until they purchased a part of KK.

10T may had a part in the in development of BP, as KK was part of 10T when development of BP started in early 2005, until 10T went bust.

Ashley003

06-10-11, 17:49

Yes, Reakktor did all the development. Gamigo didn't come on board until several months before closed beta started. (Early 2010 I think) They had more of a publisher role, until they purchased a part of KK.

10T may had a part in the in development of BP, as KK was part of 10T when development of BP started in early 2005, until 10T went bust.

While I heard 10Tacle did die a while ago, it seems they are back?

http://www.10tacle.be/

I also never knew they developed Outcast. :P

Brammers

06-10-11, 18:07

While I heard 10Tacle did die a while ago, it seems they are back?

http://www.10tacle.be/

I also never knew they developed Outcast. :P

Don't think so... Unless the Belgium division was separate to the German division for it to continue.

I think the website just hasn't been shut down. One clue is it talks about the game Totems which is due to be released in 2008. :confused:

Edit: Ahh 10t Belguim was also Elsewhere Entertainment. They worked on the NeoReality engine, which has nothing to do with Neocron, and at one point it was speculated that it would be the engine that was going to be used for BP. In the end KK used the Gamebryo engine

http://www.techhaven.org/component/option,com_docman/Itemid,132/task,cat_view/gid,55/ If you fancy a look at a video of the engine.

Ashley003

06-10-11, 18:38

Don't think so... Unless the Belgium division was separate to the German division for it to continue.

I think the website just hasn't been shut down. One clue is it talks about the game Totems which is due to be released in 2008. :confused:

Edit: Ahh 10t Belguim was also Elsewhere Entertainment. They worked on the NeoReality engine, which has nothing to do with Neocron, and at one point it was speculated that it would be the engine that was going to be used for BP. In the end KK used the Gamebryo engine

http://www.techhaven.org/component/option,com_docman/Itemid,132/task,cat_view/gid,55/ If you fancy a look at a video of the engine.

Wow! Those graphics are amazing even for today, was that really from 2003?

Ivan Eres

07-10-11, 16:43

Given their situation (the insolvency of 10T), I don't think they had much choice at the time.

Why can't the community buy NC with these donations and let our own developers work on it?

Or make it OS then, if possible.

james_finn

08-10-11, 00:43

Why can't the community buy NC with these donations and let our own developers work on it?

Or make it OS then, if possible.

Two failings with this idea:

#1 - The amount of money the game would cost, not to mention the fact that KK want to keep the rights to neocron for future development of the franchise.

#2 - The amount of work that would have to go into keeping a game as big as neocron going, first of all we would need *dedicated* coders (I mention dedicated, as you only need to look on moddb to see people who promise and never deliver). You would need the server farm to host it, not to mention the bandwidth required to run it... etc. etc. Plus how do you ensure that the developers are actually developing what you want them too, and not making more bugs.

AFAIK one of the biggest problems with the neocron codebase, is that the original developers left soon after launch of neocron 1, which meant that patching the game would create spagetification of the code. Thus patches always have secondary effects where you did not anticipate them to be. Each patch effectively became a 'band-aid' - where they *hoped* that the patch wouldn't break the game (many times in my years of playing - I've seen exactly that happen).

I've seen this suggestions many times since beta4, and always comes back with the same point, the game is KK's and they want to keep the franchise.

IMHO the best thing for KK to do will be to revive the neocron franchise through a new game - not named neocron keeping any stigmata which may pass down from the neocron 2 review debacle - which has a totally new codebase, and therefore will be patchable and should be better balanced from the start. However, have people ever stopped to think maybe the occasional unbalance was good for the neocron economy?

William Antrim

08-10-11, 17:35

You make a good point James.

Well several actually but yeah. The economy point is certainly a valid one. I think with any MMO seeking to balance its classes there will always be one perceived "favourite" class. This is normal.

In terms of economic impact however I would rather see some measures installed to ensure that we don't have problems in the future with our ingame economy. If stockx worked for example that would give us room to play, or even some form of online casino type thing within the game (npc controlled) would be good.

I would rather not see things go back to the dark days of Saturn and paying ten million nc for a marine cpu.

On Uranus our economy was pretty stable. Then they gave us the Johnny 5 parts vendor. Overnight almost I went from being modestly wealthy to practically footballer wealthy and I was only levelling my spy casually. The real farmers were making stupid money.

I would rather not see this happen again. Cash sinks in this case are welcomed in my view.