View Full Version : Dear KK (Kirk); please, please do something.
--- Thread Updates ---
Post from Danae: http://forum.neocron.com/showpost.php?p=2175608&postcount=6
Kirk's 1st Post: http://forum.neocron.com/showpost.php?p=2175823&postcount=78
Kirk's 2nd Post: http://forum.neocron.com/showpost.php?p=2175886&postcount=106
L0KI's phone call with Kirk: http://forum.neocron.com/showpost.php?p=2175971&postcount=147
Kirk's 3rd Post: http://forum.neocron.com/showpost.php?p=2175985&postcount=153
Kirk's 4th Post: http://forum.neocron.com/showpost.php?p=2176126&postcount=187
Thread Summary from Biglines: http://forum.neocron.com/showpost.php?p=2176144&postcount=194
--- Thread Updates ---
Specifically, anything at all.
I'm probably wasting my proverbial breath writing this, but I feel obliged to tell you how disappointed I am with your utter lack of updates and basic common courtesy. I would appreciate it if the remaining moderator(s?) could leave this thread open, as nothing I have said so far, or am about to say is untrue.
I recently read a thread on a certain gaming website, whereby a number of people were screaming out for a Cyberpunk MMORPG. I was astounded by the responses. For the most part, the thread was filled with people in agreement, asking that same question; 'Why is there no cyberpunk MMO?'
I stepped up, of course, and said, 'Why... there is! Not only is it a cyberpunk MMORPG, it is also the best MMORPG I have ever had the pleasure of playing! You should all go and give it a try, despite its age. The world really is that immersive, and the PvP is the best around'.
Sure, I came across as a bit of a fanboy, but that's because I am. This game deserves fanboys. All of us that played 9 years ago that are still lurking are, in fact, fanboys. Anyone that says otherwise is likely bereft of the basic intellect required to breathe in and out, and thus arguing with me will likely only demonstrate this fact.
Anyway, I digress...
Surprisingly, despite me coming across as 'quite the fanboy', a number (double figures) of forum members actually wanted to try the game, and asked for the URL. I gave it to them, of course. Didn't I look the outrageous twat when said 'best MMORPG I have ever had the pleasure of playing' wouldn't allow new account sign-ups. I understand this is still the case (correct me if I am wrong).
So, that's almost twenty (and no less than ten) potential new players turned away at the door from one person's efforts; namely, mine. Let's do some basic math on that, shall we? If the current PEAK time player base is 40-50 (we'll use 40 as the example), and 20 more players were to join, that's a whopping increase of 50% of the peak time player base.
FIFTY-FUCKING-PERCENT.
What would that lead to? Well, I know for certain it'd lead to potential returning players seeing 7% and thinking 'Hmm, maybe things are picking up', and logging in; thus turning said 7% into 8, 9, or even 10% and beyond. What do we have then? A Neocron worth playing (when patch 175 hits, of course, but I will cover that later).
So anyway... I decided to have a quick scan around a few other forums for posts in the past 12 months from people wanting to try Neocron, and found a few on the extremely popular (and arguably piss-poor) MMORPG.com.
Here are a few of the quotes from the thread, from this year:
I have always been interestedin this game and curious how the free to play works etc.. so if you want to send me a PM with account info it might be fun..
I really would be pleased :) - referring to someone offering to set up an account for him, which never happened.
I could use an account. Can make it any user / pass just shoot me a PM.
i'll take an account!
I used to play this game about 5-6 years ago. Is it still running? If so, I would like an account if someone is able to throw me one. Kinda miss the environment.
I'll appreciate an account.
Many thanks. :)
I could use an account , sounds good to play :)
I would like an account if this is still being offered. had an account years ago, but it doesn't seem to exist anymore :(
It is important to point out, at this stage, that there were no replies to these posts. These are another bunch of people that wanted to try the game but were turned away at the door.
A quick Google search revealed more and more people wanting to try this GEM of a game, and failing.
Why am I posting all this?
Two reasons.
One; I give a shit. Clearly, and undeniably more than you do.
Two; these are just a handful of examples of people that want to play this game, but can't. That's sad in itself.
I wish my rant ended here, but it doesn't. So.. on to my next point.
What the hell is going on?
Over a year ago, the ReaKKtor development team attempted to finally fix the obvious issues we've had for years with hackers. Shock!!! I said it. That's right, players cheating by modifying client-side files, and even using aimbots as seen on Youtube, and a certain German hackers site that I will not list, for fear of having this section edited. I almost forgot to mention the portable Gogus. Pfft.
What happened?
A clusterfuck of a failure happened, of course. The patch was utter trash, and there was no explanation as to why it was utter trash. Instead, the servers were rolled back to what we're playing now, which is of course 'Hacker-friendly' Neocron.
What's the last we heard on the situation?
In JULY 2010, Chenoa said:
The DEVs decided to bring the server back to #168, be sure, they know why and what to do.
They're still working on it and will bring the new patch online as soon as possible. Until then we have to wait.
We're still waiting.
In fairness to the team, Kirk Lenke did come along and say;
I read the forums and believe it or not I am also not that happy with the current status NC is in. AND there was/is a reason we could not fix the patch as promised
My response to this, Kirk, is that whatever the reason may be, it should have been overcome by now. It's been a year.
Kirk then went on to say:
I still have the hope that the "Somehowf#!$up-Patch" can be delivered in Q1 2011 so that NC will be more fun to play instead of playing "who exploits best".
When the patch is out and running well, we will hire more GMs again.
Best,
Kirk
It's mid-way through Q3 Kirk. Any update?
Then along came the whole NC3 teaser. Not a single word about that since you announced your plans to start on it.
What drives me insane about all this, is that it is all fixable, simple stuff. It is well within your power to fix this stuff... it has to be. There must be a way you can find the time for one or two of your developers to put two weeks into NC, the patch, and the shitty, half-arsed sign up system. Who knows, maybe the game will actually be worth playing if you patch it to 175 at long last.
I have no idea who's calling the shots over there, Kirk, so if it's not you, please forward this on to whomever is.
Really KK, at times I think that if brains were chocolate bars, yours would be labelled "Fun Size".
/end rant.
Chuck Norris
16-08-11, 22:51
<3 Loki
Theyre to busy dumping investor dollars into there love child/cash scam crapprophecy.
I am sure this will fall onto def ears, I gave up pvping over A year ago I just log on time to time to do some pve character development mainly quests/runs and chat to A couple of buds.
<3 Loki
Theyre to busy dumping investor dollars into there love child/cash scam crapprophecy.
I appreciate the sentiment dude, and I am inclined to agree.
I just thought it was worth one final attempt.
A valiant effort that will fall on deaf ears.
so far, the only times we've ever gotten a response is when the topic was brought up on the black prophecy forums (afraid of people finding out just how bad a company KK really is), every single post by kirk can be related to someone bringing it up on the black prophecy forums.
In the past I'd thought that most of the mods and GMs were at least looking out for some of our interests, but they aren't even reading these forums anymore, let alone giving us the things they promised. (For example, 11 months ago Chenoa also promised a big series of events which never happened, even though multiple people volunteered services for both translations and content).
And the bad thing is, they can't even say we're doing something against the rules, because we are simply stating facts... It's a sad day indeed if the biggest troll against a company is simply stating a few simple facts about them.
-edit: added info, with click2pay it's still possible for non-US people to get a working account. Simply accept the playing, but cancel the payment after you've made your account, and you should be able to play without paying (or possibly paying for the game itself). Another option is to buy one of the still many cd boxsets around, which will force KK to actually open an account for you as you paid for it, in the uk they are generally sold for around a pound.
I am pretty sure you all know by now Reakktor has never been a huge company. I would love to be able to speak on behalf of the company and give you an update on the state of affairs, but I have no new information and I'm not the "community manager". When I am online I am responding to email tickets; that is my responsibility.
I just want to say something, not as me, but as an adult, with bills and kids. In life you need money. Everything you want and need requires it. This is an ugly truth about this industry as well. Not to be a dirty capitalist here, but game development costs money, no one works for free, no ones time is free. There needs to be revenue period.
Now back to being me - I have never seen a community so dedicated and passionate and interested in all aspects of a game like I see with Neocron folks. Do not think you are ignored, even if someone doesn't take the time to respond directly to you, people do read the forum and they do value you. Not only for your opinions but your evident love for Neocron in spite of your frustration. You need to realise that the lack of interaction may not come from a place of neglect but a place of frustration on the other end as well - wanting desperately to do the things that would please you, but not having the ability at this juncture because there are other things on the front hob.
Do not stop emailing us, do not stop giving us suggestions, do not stop pointing us to flaws and faults. Do always be passionate and vigilant and know that someone is watching, reading, and being enlightened by your words.
I can't promise you anything, I can't give you anything other than support, but I just wanted to respond because I feel you deserved something from someone, even if it's just me ^^
thank you for giving a reply. It really really gladdens me that someone from KK takes the time to at least try to give an honest answer, and to respond to our concerns with honesty and regret, and without empty promises. Seeing the time it isn't even on company time, so doubly thanks for taking personal time to do something nice.
Regretfully I do want to make another point to the rest of KK:
It doesn't take that much money to make a sticky which explains the valid ways of making new accounts. It doesn't take much money to take a few hours to go through the signup process and add a few notes explaining the different charges and how they are different now.
It also doesn't take any money to post a simple post explaining that you have run into problems (no need to even specify them) and that you won't make it to fullfil your promises. But no, instead of a simple post explaining it's not going to happen, we are utterly and completely ignored, except your explanation now, which I take it to be not originated from the company, but from your good will, probably not even on company time.
It has taken more than a year and hundreds of requests for more information, to get even this message.
We don't want promises and updates of all the new things that are supposedly happening (like that imaginary work on nc3), we know you don't care for neocron atm and are focussed on salvaging black prophecy. All we want is the respect to at least be kept somewhat in the loop, and not to be lied to right into our faces. Be honest and don't make empty promises, even if it means you only have sad news.
You are losing customers every single day simply by losing all the credibility and goodwill as a responsible development company. This is sad, because even though it's been a while, you did bring us one of the best games in history back in 2002/2003.
Regretfully I do want to make another point to the rest of KK:
It doesn't take that much money to make a sticky which explains the valid ways of making new accounts. It doesn't take much money to take a few hours to go through the signup process and add a few notes explaining the different charges and how they are different now.
It also doesn't take any money to post a simple post explaining that you have run into problems (no need to even specify them) and that you won't make it to fullfil your promises. But no, instead of a simple post explaining it's not going to happen, we are utterly and completely ignored, except your explanation now, which I take it to be not originated from the company, but from your good will, probably not even on company time.
It has taken more than a year and hundreds of requests for more information, to get even this message.
We don't want promises and updates of all the new things that are supposedly happening (like that imaginary work on nc3), we know you don't care for neocron atm and are focussed on salvaging black prophecy. All we want is the respect to at least be kept somewhat in the loop, and not to be lied to right into our faces. Be honest and don't make empty promises, even if it means you only have sad news.
You are losing customers every single day simply by losing all the credibility and goodwill as a responsible development company. This is sad, because even though it's been a while, you did bring us one of the best games in history back in 2002/2003.
/signed
Terror_Nonne
17-08-11, 11:47
^^ 0190-xxx plz hold the line.... - haha phone-joke, nothing more...
Prodigious
17-08-11, 12:22
I just tried to reactivate. I remember why I haven't done so before. It tells me I only ever had a trial account and wants to charge me €25 before kindly giving me my remaining 21 days free play and then charging me €5 p/m.
I've still got the original case/disc at home and played bc2 (although summit happened with my xfers and I remember losing A LOT of stuff!
If someone tells me how to get my account working I would still log in. I miss nc. I miss my pain easer. And I really miss having prod (PE) in his anti rad suit wielding an artefact first love :D damn druggy he was!
did you play nc2? then just log in to it...
I just tried to reactivate. I remember why I haven't done so before. It tells me I only ever had a trial account and wants to charge me €25 before kindly giving me my remaining 21 days free play and then charging me €5 p/m.
I've still got the original case/disc at home and played bc2 (although summit happened with my xfers and I remember losing A LOT of stuff!
If someone tells me how to get my account working I would still log in. I miss nc. I miss my pain easer. And I really miss having prod (PE) in his anti rad suit wielding an artefact first love :D damn druggy he was!
I think I remember you!
Did you play on Uranus?
It seems Danae has made a sticky at the top of this forum regarding accounts.
If you ever had an NC2 account, it should be free now.
It seems Danae has made a sticky at the top of this forum regarding accounts.
Which feels like a freaking joke.
We are not asking about the current BS system.
We are most likely asking to open Neocron to public?
'THE HELL!
I am pretty sure you all know by now Reakktor has never been a huge company. I would love to be able to speak on behalf of the company and give you an update on the state of affairs, but I have no new information and I'm not the "community manager". When I am online I am responding to email tickets; that is my responsibility.
I just want to say something, not as me, but as an adult, with bills and kids. In life you need money. Everything you want and need requires it. This is an ugly truth about this industry as well. Not to be a dirty capitalist here, but game development costs money, no one works for free, no ones time is free. There needs to be revenue period.
Now back to being me - I have never seen a community so dedicated and passionate and interested in all aspects of a game like I see with Neocron folks. Do not think you are ignored, even if someone doesn't take the time to respond directly to you, people do read the forum and they do value you. Not only for your opinions but your evident love for Neocron in spite of your frustration. You need to realise that the lack of interaction may not come from a place of neglect but a place of frustration on the other end as well - wanting desperately to do the things that would please you, but not having the ability at this juncture because there are other things on the front hob.
Do not stop emailing us, do not stop giving us suggestions, do not stop pointing us to flaws and faults. Do always be passionate and vigilant and know that someone is watching, reading, and being enlightened by your words.
I can't promise you anything, I can't give you anything other than support, but I just wanted to respond because I feel you deserved something from someone, even if it's just me ^^
Thank you very much for this post, and the post describing account creation options! It's really nice to finally see an honest post from someone from Reakktor.
Doc Holliday
17-08-11, 15:06
my fire is ablaze again. thanks D :)
Would you guys please bloody come back instead of just talking about it! For me this is the best NC2 experience to date opfighting nearly every night in a good clan with good people and the cheaters don't really affect me that much
Prodigious
17-08-11, 16:33
I think I remember you!
Did you play on Uranus?
It seems Danae has made a sticky at the top of this forum regarding accounts.
Yes, played on Uranus. I remember being part of Clan Cobra in the Black Dragons. It was awesome being a liberator PE back then!
If I remember rightly last time I logged in as prod I was stuck in city nerds somewhere after trying to go through the old epics quests!
No gear or anything. He's probably in a mess now with implants, skills and everything else!
I'll take a look at the sticky next week, headin to Dublin tomorrow for the weekend so won't have time before I go I don't think.
Were you an APU (when I say you, I mean in game Loki) I'm sure inremember you helping me out in the sewers lol.
Edit: just look again. It says my account is paypal, then it says my gametime has expired, i must buy the game (I already had it!) for €25 and choose a subscription. If I click next it asksfor my email, then says reactivate or abort.
Does that mean it will charge me or not? I'm a bit confused really, I don't get asked to login to paypal or anything and I know that you cant use paypal anyway!
Yes, played on Uranus. I remember being part of Clan Cobra in the Black Dragons. It was awesome being a liberator PE back then!
If I remember rightly last time I logged in as prod I was stuck in city nerds somewhere after trying to go through the old epics quests!
No gear or anything. He's probably in a mess now with implants, skills and everything else!
I'll take a look at the sticky next week, headin to Dublin tomorrow for the weekend so won't have time before I go I don't think.
Were you an APU (when I say you, I mean in game Loki) I'm sure inremember you helping me out in the sewers lol.
Edit: just look again. It says my account is paypal, then it says my gametime has expired, i must buy the game (I already had it!) for €25 and choose a subscription. If I click next it asksfor my email, then says reactivate or abort.
Does that mean it will charge me or not? I'm a bit confused really, I don't get asked to login to paypal or anything and I know that you cant use paypal anyway!
Mad. I was Loki II and Rabbi Fang (APU and PE).
I now remember you very well! :)
Would you guys please bloody come back instead of just talking about it! For me this is the best NC2 experience to date opfighting nearly every night in a good clan with good people and the cheaters don't really affect me that much
I just restarted today. Biglines has been giving me some advice :)
Prodigious
17-08-11, 17:30
Mad. I was Loki II and Rabbi Fang (APU and PE).
I now remember you very well! :)
Yeah I remember Rabbi.
The thing that worries me is the mess Prod will be in when I log in. And what faction!! Scary times, might be worth starting over lol
Yeah I remember Rabbi.
The thing that worries me is the mess Prod will be in when I log in. And what faction!! Scary times, might be worth starting over lol
Don't worry about the mess: LoMs take no time at all now.
Also, don't worry about the faction. There's someone called 'Secret' you can see to switch faction once, and once only.
RE: The sticky at the top of the forums now, I have created a page on neocron.org also
http://www.neocron.org/
RE: The sticky at the top of the forums now, I have created a page on neocron.org also
http://www.neocron.org/
Thanks for that MrTrip, my assumption is it will have to be a Neocron 2 CD key used for manual account creation due to the discontinuation of Neocron 1 accounts many moons ago.
Although I'm guessing Danae will be able to clear that up when she gets a moment :)
I'd like to second this, btw.
Do not stop emailing us, do not stop giving us suggestions, do not stop pointing us to flaws and faults. Do always be passionate and vigilant and know that someone is watching, reading, and being enlightened by your words.
I can't promise you anything, I can't give you anything other than support, but I just wanted to respond because I feel you deserved something from someone, even if it's just me ^^
There is very little I can do other than try and keep the forum readable but i'm always floating around somewhere and try my best to poke the right person when stuff goes to pot.
Thanks for that MrTrip, my assumption is it will have to be a Neocron 2 CD key used for manual account creation due to the discontinuation of Neocron 1 accounts many moons ago.
Although I'm guessing Danae will be able to clear that up when she gets a moment :)
I'd like to second this, btw.
There is very little I can do other than try and keep the forum readable but i'm always floating around somewhere and try my best to poke the right person when stuff goes to pot.
I was under the impression that Neocron 1 CD Keys would work also but that would be nice to clarify
I'd like to second this, btw.
There is very little I can do other than try and keep the forum readable but i'm always floating around somewhere and try my best to poke the right person when stuff goes to pot.
Let me make one thing clear. In no way did I, nor have I ever knocked the moderator team. This is aimed at your higher-ups.
In fact, the moderators on this forum are some of the best I have ever encountered in an online community.
I'm still at work, so I'm updating it as I get the chance. But all your answers will eventually be in there. Not going to spam this thread.
Let me make one thing clear. In no way did I, nor have I ever knocked the moderator team. This is aimed at your higher-ups.
In fact, the moderators on this forum are some of the best I have ever encountered in an online community.
I second loki about Moderators being one of the best! But even if the mods are really good KK tarnish them by being blind and deaf when the community calls for them!
I DO love the game, the GMs, the community and everything that make this game enjoyable.
Mad. I was Loki II and Rabbi Fang (APU and PE).
I now remember you very well! :)
VillianROM eh? ;) You have the same handset as I.
/thread high-jack over.
VillianROM eh? ;) You have the same handset as I.
/thread high-jack over.
I founded VillainROM, and I own pretty much every Android handset ever made ;)
Google NPRussell. That is I :D
Do you use our IRC channel?
I founded VillainROM, and I own pretty much every Android handset ever made ;)
Google NPRussell. That is I :D
Do you use our IRC channel?
!! Hey fool, I have the Evo Shift and I need a digitizer for it, mine is fine but the ribbon rubbed after sliding the keyboard in and out and it quit working. Be my hero <3
Good thread and excellent points made. As much as I left in a huff all those years ago, returning to the game now its still got something I have NEVER found in any other MMO I've played through the years. I cant pin it down but NC just has a shine beneath the tarnished surface that nothing else has ever matched and it's taken me this long to realise it.
Much love to Danae who I wouldnt be playing again if it werent for the help from too <3
http://neocron.klunky.co.uk/
Updated with account FAQ link.
@Mr.Trip. You troll, you :)
William Antrim
18-08-11, 18:46
8th September I will have TEH INTARWEBZ again. I will get my vent server fixed too and pm some of you clowns the detailz. Ill make a new toon on a new account too Rabb.
Much love kids.
8th September I will have TEH INTARWEBZ again. I will get my vent server fixed too and pm some of you clowns the detailz. Ill make a new toon on a new account too Rabb.
Much love kids.
We're making a BD clan top OP fight with Immune and SOAD!
I'm levelling a spy and tank atm. Tank is at 95 str, spy is at 3 dex. Lol.
yay, wb mr Antrim :D
If yer wanting to group for levelling (although I stay LE'd while levelling) be happy to accompany you Loki / Rabbi :)
My tank is a wee bit ahead, but doubt it'd take you long to catch up (42str, **/21) and my 2 spies are currently lommed to tradeskill bitches so be easy to keep upgraded
must try making a Psi at some point soon..... Never ever manged to do one beyond a few levels without wanting to slit my wrists but I would dearly love to try PPU'n
We're making a BD clan top OP fight with Immune and SOAD!
I'm levelling a spy and tank atm. Tank is at 95 str, spy is at 3 dex. Lol.
Against soad, you shall loose. They are leet.
We're making a BD clan top OP fight with Immune and SOAD!
I'm levelling a spy and tank atm. Tank is at 95 str, spy is at 3 dex. Lol.
as long as relations remain friendly, I'd be happy to ppu for you guys when you need me (if he's anywhere near a gr :P)
and providing you have the gr that theyre leveling near biggie..
and providing you have the gr that theyre leveling near biggie..
my ppu has all gr's :p (hes got so much dex overcap that i can lom to vehicle pretty much ever day :p)
And now I posted it on the Black Prophecy message boards :)
I go away for a week, and something happens... o_O
First of all, a very good post LOKI. You are right, KK's utter lack of updates and basic common courtesy is appalling.
I don't often mention the THN is supposed to be a Neocron Official fansite, however I do question whether that official logo should be even displayed on the THN when it's treating players or customers in this way.
However, one good positive step has taken. At least there is (Finally) an uptodate FAQ on the accounts - so thanks Danae!
Doc Holliday
19-08-11, 05:03
Would you guys please bloody come back instead of just talking about it! For me this is the best NC2 experience to date opfighting nearly every night in a good clan with good people and the cheaters don't really affect me that much
im not a morning person. 7pm in the UK is currently 4am for me. im either at work or asleep at this time or going between the 2. play times make it hard. clients installed etc. i tried playing but alone its boring.
http://neocron.klunky.co.uk/
Updated with account FAQ link.
@Mr.Trip. You troll, you :)
The counters? They are just a constant reminder for KK that we are still waiting, and the clock is still ticking. It should burn and it should hurt their feelings that we have been ignored for almost a year (The counter is 4 days from a full year for the promised patch) and 220 days since word of Neocron 3.
Its sad but until KK starts communicating with us on an official level about whats going on (Danae does all she can do but she knows just as much as we do :( ) I'll be leaving the counters up.
I've got big plans for neocron.org and a couple other projects, but really my creative spark comes and goes with how dead it is around here. I logged in game and bought a WoC disk the other day and havent played since, just doesn't feel right anymore :(
im not a morning person. 7pm in the UK is currently 4am for me. im either at work or asleep at this time or going between the 2. play times make it hard. clients installed etc. i tried playing but alone its boring.
I play UK mornings mostly - like 9am - 1pm, as I work US hours from home.
9am would be be 6pm for you, aka, peak ;)
Doc Holliday
20-08-11, 07:36
ub3r. ok. i will see what i can do.
William Antrim
21-08-11, 13:19
All my toons are Black Dragon already.
to the person who said we will "loose".....
we just need to shake the rust off I think. We used to be the best Clan on Uranus at one time. It cant be hard to get back to that without the aid of third party programs. Ok most of us are 6-8 years older but I think we can manage to put up a fight at least even if there are only 2-3 of us playing.
to the person who said we will "loose".....
I wrote "Against soad, you shall loose. They are leet," and sarcasm was intended :lol:
Please get a BD clan up and running. Love to have more op wars and some general melancholy down in pepper park.
Please get a BD clan up and running. Love to have more op wars and some general melancholy down in pepper park.
We don't yet have enough potential members, but I'm working on my levelling :)
Great post LOKI, I enjoyed reading it as well as all following posts. I'm surprised that it's still open considering you mentioned the dreaded... hacking word.
Anyway, I agree with everyone when it comes to how KK has treated loyal fans of this fantastic game, it's quite disgraceful at how we are only acknowledged when the possibility of 'outsiders' discovering how KK treats once paying consumers becomes a possibility.
I'd also like to point out that KK being only a 'small' company should have no effect on developers fixing the patch we were promised last year. When I think of this, I like to compare it to a game MOD that was developed for Star Trek Armada 2, called Fleet Ops.
This small core of coders spent their spare time developing a mod for a game that was released in 2001, and have arguably created something which could easily be burnt onto CD and sold as a *new* complete game, hell even professional gaming companies would start selling hard copies of games which would be buggy, full of errors and have contents which paled in comparison to what these few developers had created, IN THEIR SPARE TIME.
I fully believe that KK has had the ability to fix Neocron for a long time, but has chosen not to for whatever reason they want to tell themselves, and quite honestly I'm disappointed that this once amazing game was developed by a company who, dare I say, is happy to drop loyal followers when it suits them.
If people disagree with what I said than that's fair enough.
well it's probably also to do with the original game designers leaving KK for better places... (One of the reasons I am less than optimistic for the gameplay of nc3 if that'll ever come)
Chuck Norris
23-08-11, 01:29
teh dream is dead
I would guess from the utter ignorance of the KK developers and Kirk himself, that they're not in the least bit interested in the views of their customers.
Free or not; I paid for this game, and threw many hundreds of ££ into subscriptions over the years, as did (almost) everyone else in this forum.
What a shame.
loki you're probably a cool guy but. come on you been in this game for a long time. when will you see that KK have never cared about there customers ever.
loki you're probably a cool guy but. come on you been in this game for a long time. when will you see that KK have never cared about there customers ever.
I actually agree with you. I just thought I'd give them another, more final chance.
Probably pointless, I agree.
William Antrim
23-08-11, 18:42
We have a Black Dragon clan already set up. It has a clan appt too. Just needs a name change and Clan leader change.
Im not up for it but youre welcome to the clan key. I will move my gear out and give it a spring clean.
We have a Black Dragon clan already set up. It has a clan appt too. Just needs a name change and Clan leader change.
Im not up for it but youre welcome to the clan key. I will move my gear out and give it a spring clean.
That sounds tits!
You're not up for leadership or coming back?
I'm well and truly up for both. :D
William Antrim
23-08-11, 23:40
No ill play but I would just rather not have to deal with the politics and recruitment like last time. I want to avoid being hit on on vent every time i log in and all the other bs that went along with inviting certain members into the clan.
You can be the top boy mate I had my time in the limelight and it made me itch tbh.
Doc Holliday
24-08-11, 11:17
No ill play but I would just rather not have to deal with the politics and recruitment like last time. I want to avoid being hit on on vent every time i log in and all the other bs that went along with inviting certain members into the clan.
You can be the top boy mate I had my time in the limelight and it made me itch tbh.
yet you craved it when u played understudy and wanted a piece yourself. or you need a certain clan leader that you followed around to play with you for you to want to do it? ;)
might be able to do some sundays i reckon. :)
William Antrim
24-08-11, 19:01
yet you craved it when u played understudy and wanted a piece yourself. or you need a certain clan leader that you followed around to play with you for you to want to do it? ;)
might be able to do some sundays i reckon. :)
Neither actually.
I am not and never have been a leader. Dont like the limelight. You of all people know that.
I've been hit by the wave of NC nostalgia.
The discussion about Neocron is alive in Black Prophecy (english) Forum - communicator. Come and help your fav game out. Let your voice be heard where KK can't simply ignore your posts
The discussion about Neocron is alive in Black Prophecy (english) Forum - communicator. Come and help your fav game out. Let your voice be heard where KK can't simply ignore your posts
It's here if anyone is interested - http://blackprophecy.gamigo.com/forum/showthread.php?t=16531
MadMeleeFreak
25-08-11, 15:53
I just want to say something, not as me, but as an adult, with bills and kids. In life you need money. Everything you want and need requires it. This is an ugly truth about this industry as well. Not to be a dirty capitalist here, but game development costs money, no one works for free, no ones time is free. There needs to be revenue period.
How much?
Tell Kirk to calculate it and tell us a number. You hire the Devs to fix it we pay them. How 'bout that?
Regards,
MMF
How much?
Tell Kirk to calculate it and tell us a number. You hire the Devs to fix it we pay them. How 'bout that?
Regards,
MMF
Haha - I like that idea. I'd throw some money in the pot ;)
I'll just say what I said over there (BP forum).
The whole thing is pissing me off now.
Either fix it, or tell us why you can't.
Drachenpaladin
25-08-11, 17:04
Mr. Kirk has Birthday today so... maybe if he is in a good mood he will let something slip...
Mr. Kirk has Birthday today so... maybe if he is in a good mood he will let something slip...
Happy Birthday, Kirk. :)
Please read the opening post :lol:
William Antrim
25-08-11, 18:14
The thing is I think Kirk worked for Reakktor when MJS came to the forums and told us all that he had never had a fatal error.....
That was some funny shit.
The thing is I think Kirk worked for Reakktor when MJS came to the forums and told us all that he had never had a fatal error.....
That was some funny shit.
Lol, did he???
MadMeleeFreak
25-08-11, 19:15
Lol, did he???
I think I remember that aswell. And tell you what: I believe the man did not lie about that. I guess this is part of what is wrong in many game development teams. Every member of the team up to the CEOs especialy on MMO teams should be forced to actualy play the game (not for testing but for enjoyment) at least 24 hours per month.
I guess that would be a shock therapy for the one or the other person and might have saved games like Tabula Rasa or Neocron. The problem is: if you tell people in interviews and such often enough that your game is developing great and a shitload of fun to play without regularly checking back ingame if that still holds true you pretty quickly will believe your own hype. And then all of a sudden the people playing and complaining wil seem like they are not playing the game you developed and you think they are all wrong or just don't get how this game must be played.
Chuck Norris
25-08-11, 21:40
Sadly none of this matters the people that made neocron are long gone, we are just suckling off an extinct rapidly drying up teet
Black-Flames
28-08-11, 23:10
This has already been mentioned a dozen times but...
why not open-source it?
I highly doubt that whoever is running those servers is still making any money on this, publisher's bankrupt and most officials don't seem to care that much or at all.
So, again, why not?
Certainly, the fanbase is there and really, some people even took the time to write an emulator years ago.
From scratch.
This alone is proof that people are willing to put their own time and work, probably even money, into this to get back what was once a great game.
Sure, this won't fix everything but it's a start.
And it would surely mean a MUCH better image for ReaKKtor aswell.
At least, better than just continuing this pathetic history of failure with one or two <1MB Patches a year... at best.
Just an idea though, last time i logged in was years ago.
Even though, what's happening is quite sad so... +1 for L0KI.
open source nc current src code? nah bad idea mate. it's old useless and two rendering engines to work with... if you mean for nc3 then that might be a good idea...
MadMeleeFreak
29-08-11, 19:02
Name one open source game that made it to a state of being finished/releaseworthy and had the decent quality (especialy graphics wise) to compete with commercial games.
You will find little to none examples of that.
Don't Open Source it. Hire someone maybe even from this community. A bunch of gifted peeps is floating around here.
Name one open source game that made it to a state of being finished/releaseworthy and had the decent quality (especialy graphics wise) to compete with commercial games.
You will find little to none examples of that.
Don't Open Source it. Hire someone maybe even from this community. A bunch of gifted peeps is floating around here.
the point wudnt be to make it compete with current commercial games. the point would be to make it playable.
Face of Mankind went down an interesting route for revival...
They re-launched it under a fan's publishing company as a freemium game, and it had a sudden influx of new subs. Then, several (crappy) changes were made to the game under the original developer, and he pretty much gave up on it for other projects. The developer in question then sold the game on to Nexeon (the publishers), and they hired developers and actually LISTENED to the community.
The game now is stronger than I have seen it in years, and has more and more returnees every day.
It's a shame KK couldn't bite the bullet on this and consider something similar.
Kirk Lenke
29-08-11, 21:36
Promise!
I will go through this thread within the next days and answer some of your questions and get back to you into a proper discussion!
All the best and thanks for caring about the game you seem to love (still)
Kirk
Promise!
I will go through this thread within the next days and answer some of your questions and get back to you into a proper discussion!
All the best and thanks for caring about the game you seem to love (still)
Kirk
Wow - it worked!
Well I will apologise in advanced for saying you have 'fun size' brains. Ignore that part, but the rest is good reading ;)
I look forward to us all being able to ask questions over the next week or so. I hope we like some of what we hear, more importantly.
CoreInsanity
29-08-11, 21:44
Name one open source game that made it to a state of being finished/releaseworthy and had the decent quality (especialy graphics wise) to compete with commercial games.
You will find little to none examples of that.
Don't Open Source it. Hire someone maybe even from this community. A bunch of gifted peeps is floating around here.
This game is old, the art is old and the engine is old. They aren't going to be able to fix this game and make it on par without remaking it. I would be willing to bed the code has been butchered over the years. They would have to remake this game to make it even close to competeing with anything around. In all honesty, I think they need to remake it to even fix the game in general.
The fact is while there are dedicated people, "fanboys", there aren't enough to support this game. Sure, "This is the best cyberpunk MMO I have played" when people are saying they havn't seen one is going to get people to try it. But a good percent of those will leave once they hear about (or experience) the bugs and the ranting from the community about the company being poor (In both money and quality). I don't know anyone who would fork out money to buy the game, let alone pay a monthly fee in it's current state. This game is basically in a beta state that some people are paying for in the name of "generating money to go to NC3/support KK".
When is NC3 going to happen? Can we actually get some news on that, Kirk? It has been a long, long time since that patch was promised and came out (and reverted..). How is Black Prophacy doing? How is the company as a whole doing? Seeing as how we are supposedly waiting on those two to sort themselves out, I don't see how a status update every now and then would be a bad thing. Yet we have nothing, at all. No status on NC3, NC2 patch development or how well off blackprophacy is or how the company is doing.
I don't see a reason to keep NC 2 as pay to play. I don't have any confidence in you all fixing it, it has been years. Next to no updates, etc. Why should I? All I can tell my friends is "Hey this game is cool, but it's buggy and has no support from developers". And I'm not going to pull a used car salesman move and basically trick them into getting it for you. The game is buggy, the development support is crap and the company is lacking in any interest in sharing information with us as to progress.
I have been playing since beta 4 NC1, and I loved it. I used to go by the name TomParad0x.
You should make the game open source, let us fix it up and maintain it in our spare time. Let people make servers for it if they want to.
Let's face it:
1) Neocron is old, buggy and is using outdated technology. The game needs to be remade if they are going to make it anything that is to bring in money.
2) The community is small, microscopic even by now. The amount of money rolling in from this must be next to nothing.
Open source it. You don't even have the resources to push out a patch to the current game, let alone make a new game based off this one right now. And if you did make a new game, NC2 being open source is not going to affect NC3, unless you barely plan on doing anything new in NC3 that would make it stand out from 2. In which case, what's the point.
Blackprophacy is going to have to be something really special for you to make the money to support developing both games. Since BP is the only game that actually has the potential for income (in their eyes) right now, that is the one that will get priority. Judging by how many posts I see on the BP forum, I'm guessing that game isn't bringing in a whole lot either.
Give us an update on something, seriously. I can't speak for myself, but these people here have been loyal to you. They deserve something for their loyalty, not just more excuses and silence.
1) How is BP doing? Is it bringing in profit?
2) How is KK doing now financially? Are you stable?
3) What are your plans for NC3, or NC2. What are we waiting on for development and what (if anything) are you actively doing development wise on NC2/3?
4) Why won't you open source NC2 or 1 (If you even still have the source for 1)? Are you actually making money/have plans to make money off of it? Can you tell us what they are, or hint at them?. I would be very interested to know how you are going to make money off of an outdated buggy game.
Edit: I am not trying to sound harsh or what not. As I said, I love the game and would love to see it survive and grow.
@Kirk, I am glad to see you read these forums and are interested in replying. I hadn't originally seen your post, I started writing this one before you had replied.
Promise!
I will go through this thread within the next days and answer some of your questions and get back to you into a proper discussion!
All the best and thanks for caring about the game you seem to love (still)
Kirk
Pleased to see a response! Just remember, wherever you go, the THN is watching you. ;)
*thumbs up* beam us up Kirk! Oh, i think that was Scotty... nvm ;)
Some things which i am curious about:
1) why not having a vote: would you pay for a NC1 or NC2 server?
i know several people which, because of the netcode problems, would really like to see nc1 again, i know this has been discussed quite often on the forums, but i would like to know, why you are not considering this option instead of getting a patch out, wouldn't that be less work?
2) how can we help? What can we do so you are able to fix the current problems with the NC2 netcode? i thought about maybe some donations, which would be managed by a third party or someone the community and you are trusting
3) why is the interpolation, which worked in nc1 not working anymore since i think nc2.2, in nc1 the z coordinate was calculated correctly, but since nc 2.2 it isn't anymore
A suggestion: maybe a new thread where we just post our questions, without any discussion would be nice, so that you can focus on them instead of the usual community blabla ;)
Hate to be pessimistic, but am I the only one who remembers the whole NC3 incident? And the response comes after people have started up an NC thread on the BP forums... again...
I'd be the first to cheer if something actually gets fixed so my favourite game is playable again, but this just feels like a case of déjà vu.
CoreInsanity
29-08-11, 22:45
*thumbs up* beam us up Kirk! Oh, i think that was Scotty... nvm ;)
Some things which i am curious about:
1) why not having a vote: would you pay for a NC1 or NC2 server?
i know several people which, because of the netcode problems, would really like to see nc1 again, i know this has been discussed quite often on the forums, but i would like to know, why you are not considering this option instead of getting a patch out, wouldn't that be less work?
2) how can we help? What can we do so you are able to fix the current problems with the NC2 netcode? i thought about maybe some donations, which would be managed by a third party or someone the community and you are trusting
3) why is the interpolation, which worked in nc1 not working anymore since i think nc2.2, in nc1 the z coordinate was calculated correctly, but since nc 2.2 it isn't anymore
A suggestion: maybe a new thread where we just post our questions, without any discussion would be nice, so that you can focus on them instead of the usual community blabla ;)
I would rather not see another thread. I already posted my questions, on top of that I think most of the important points have been brought up. I would hate to see another thread pop up for questions just to see it spammed with a metric crap-ton of questions that would undoubtedly roll in.
Besides, the standard community "blabla" is a sign of passion for the game. People don't rant about something unless they have feelings involved, especially a decade old game. He needs to know how much people love the game, and want to see it continue. I think part of the idea behind the original post by L0KI was to convey some of the displeasure and emotion felt by the community in general. Let's not make that bypassed.
This game is old, the art is old and the engine is old. They aren't going to be able to fix this game and make it on par without remaking it. I would be willing to bed the code has been butchered over the years. They would have to remake this game to make it even close to competeing with anything around. In all honesty, I think they need to remake it to even fix the game in general.
The fact is while there are dedicated people, "fanboys", there aren't enough to support this game. Sure, "This is the best cyberpunk MMO I have played" when people are saying they havn't seen one is going to get people to try it. But a good percent of those will leave once they hear about (or experience) the bugs and the ranting from the community about the company being poor (In both money and quality). I don't know anyone who would fork out money to buy the game, let alone pay a monthly fee in it's current state. This game is basically in a beta state that some people are paying for in the name of "generating money to go to NC3/support KK".
When is NC3 going to happen? Can we actually get some news on that, Kirk? It has been a long, long time since that patch was promised and came out (and reverted..). How is Black Prophacy doing? How is the company as a whole doing? Seeing as how we are supposedly waiting on those two to sort themselves out, I don't see how a status update every now and then would be a bad thing. Yet we have nothing, at all. No status on NC3, NC2 patch development or how well off blackprophacy is or how the company is doing.
I don't see a reason to keep NC 2 as pay to play. I don't have any confidence in you all fixing it, it has been years. Next to no updates, etc. Why should I? All I can tell my friends is "Hey this game is cool, but it's buggy and has no support from developers". And I'm not going to pull a used car salesman move and basically trick them into getting it for you. The game is buggy, the development support is crap and the company is lacking in any interest in sharing information with us as to progress.
I have been playing since beta 4 NC1, and I loved it. I used to go by the name TomParad0x.
You should make the game open source, let us fix it up and maintain it in our spare time. Let people make servers for it if they want to.
Let's face it:
1) Neocron is old, buggy and is using outdated technology. The game needs to be remade if they are going to make it anything that is to bring in money.
2) The community is small, microscopic even by now. The amount of money rolling in from this must be next to nothing.
Open source it. You don't even have the resources to push out a patch to the current game, let alone make a new game based off this one right now. And if you did make a new game, NC2 being open source is not going to affect NC3, unless you barely plan on doing anything new in NC3 that would make it stand out from 2. In which case, what's the point.
Blackprophacy is going to have to be something really special for you to make the money to support developing both games. Since BP is the only game that actually has the potential for income (in their eyes) right now, that is the one that will get priority. Judging by how many posts I see on the BP forum, I'm guessing that game isn't bringing in a whole lot either.
Give us an update on something, seriously. I can't speak for myself, but these people here have been loyal to you. They deserve something for their loyalty, not just more excuses and silence.
1) How is BP doing? Is it bringing in profit?
2) How is KK doing now financially? Are you stable?
3) What are your plans for NC3, or NC2. What are we waiting on for development and what (if anything) are you actively doing development wise on NC2/3?
4) Why won't you open source NC2 or 1 (If you even still have the source for 1)? Are you actually making money/have plans to make money off of it? Can you tell us what they are, or hint at them?. I would be very interested to know how you are going to make money off of an outdated buggy game.
Edit: I am not trying to sound harsh or what not. As I said, I love the game and would love to see it survive and grow.
@Kirk, I am glad to see you read these forums and are interested in replying. I hadn't originally seen your post, I started writing this one before you had replied.
Just want to say, I disagree with you there on these days commercial games and Neocron competing with them. The truth is, that the recent games except for the Graphics in no way can make up to Neocron!
Fallen Earth - FAIL. They didn't had any game balance from start on, they didn't had long term PVP objectives and finally they turned Factions into meaningless. Anyone wonders why the game went F2P 2 years after launch?
Earthrise - FAIL. Horrible launch, tab targetting, clumsy animations and combat as intensive as EVE Online LOL
Global Agenda - FAIL. Only MMO Actionshooter with partly soft aim that resembles good ol Tabula Rasa. No RPG, no housing, no crafting
Darfall - or DARKFAIL? Name says it all, the launch was a little bit better then Earthrise and it's Sword an Staff *yawn*
Mortal Online - FAIL. Better launch then Darkfall, but pretty much the same old Orks & Elves cheese you get since 1970s.
Therefore - there is no MMORPG/FPS that offers the same depth and dynamic gameplay as Neocron. This game series is now over 9 years old, and still nobody was able to get close to it or make something better.
CoreInsanity
29-08-11, 23:21
Just want to say, I disagree with you there on these days commercial games and Neocron competing with them. The truth is, that the recent games except for the Graphics in no way can make up to Neocron!
Fallen Earth - FAIL. They didn't had any game balance from start on, they didn't had long term PVP objectives and finally they turned Factions into meaningless. Anyone wonders why the game went F2P 2 years after launch?
Earthrise - FAIL. Horrible launch, tab targetting, clumsy animations and combat as intensive as EVE Online LOL
Global Agenda - FAIL. Only MMO Actionshooter with partly soft aim that resembles good ol Tabula Rasa. No RPG, no housing, no crafting
Darfall - or DARKFAIL? Name says it all, the launch was a little bit better then Earthrise and it's Sword an Staff *yawn*
Mortal Online - FAIL. Better launch then Darkfall, but pretty much the same old Orks & Elves cheese you get since 1970s.
Therefore - there is no MMORPG/FPS that offers the same depth and dynamic gameplay as Neocron. This game series is now over 9 years old, and still nobody was able to get close to it or make something better.
I agree with this - to me NC is better than all listed. However, neocron can't compete with them.
The graphics are out of date. No, this isn't everything, especially to me. But eye candy brings in customers. People that say "Hey that looks good" and try it. You don't want people to say "Hey that looks outdated" and walk away. That's what neocron in it's current state would do.
Sadly, game play is not all that sells a game now. And as much hassle as people have to go through to actually sign up for this game, plus the reputation of KK on the forums, etc. It's going to need more than an outdated graphics engine and a fan base that says "It's good I promise!".
sad to see people responding to his posts. he will be back in 3+ years with his promise to say something again.
@flashlight: http://www.neocron.org/ has a timer for the last patch and NC3 announcement!
i would donate money if NC as in its current state gets ported to another engine like my last topic about graphics, http://forum.neocron.com/showthread.php?t=143976
we ( or should I day "I" ) don't really need new content just a game that isn't broken every single time that it gets a patch...
@Kirk: just a small advice if you want really to have a linux client as you wished in this post of yours http://forum.neocron.com/showpost.php?p=2170514&postcount=17 get one programmer to code on a linux environment from day one instead of making the whole game on windows platform then port it to linux/mac. it reduces a lot of costs...
lol nice setlec if you know who runs that site ask them to add a new timer of his newest "promise to respond to everyone about neocron"
CoreInsanity
30-08-11, 05:15
lol nice setlec if you know who runs that site ask them to add a new timer of his newest "promise to respond to everyone about neocron"
MrTrip runs it :) .
I left him a message.
lol nice setlec if you know who runs that site ask them to add a new timer of his newest "promise to respond to everyone about neocron"
ask MrTrip, He is the one running that website!
I agree with this - to me NC is better than all listed. However, neocron can't compete with them.
The graphics are out of date. No, this isn't everything, especially to me. But eye candy brings in customers. People that say "Hey that looks good" and try it. You don't want people to say "Hey that looks outdated" and walk away. That's what neocron in it's current state would do.
Sadly, game play is not all that sells a game now. And as much hassle as people have to go through to actually sign up for this game, plus the reputation of KK on the forums, etc. It's going to need more than an outdated graphics engine and a fan base that says "It's good I promise!".
Hiya. I also disagree here by saying "Minecraft".
NC doesn't offer the latest render models of current games, but it offers things as housing, hacknet, dynamic armor and several other things that current games simply don't. :)
lol nice setlec if you know who runs that site ask them to add a new timer of his newest "promise to respond to everyone about neocron"
Done. Lets see how long it takes, I replaced the NC3 timer with this one since it is a bit more important.
lol awesome mr.trip
<3
-xanu
I would rather not see another thread. I already posted my questions, on top of that I think most of the important points have been brought up. I would hate to see another thread pop up for questions just to see it spammed with a metric crap-ton of questions that would undoubtedly roll in.
Besides, the standard community "blabla" is a sign of passion for the game. People don't rant about something unless they have feelings involved, especially a decade old game. He needs to know how much people love the game, and want to see it continue. I think part of the idea behind the original post by L0KI was to convey some of the displeasure and emotion felt by the community in general. Let's not make that bypassed.
Yeah that's right, haven't thought about that one. Let's see what happens.
Promise!
I will go through this thread within the next days and answer some of your questions and get back to you into a proper discussion!
All the best and thanks for caring about the game you seem to love (still)
Kirk
please this time actually answer the questions, instead of deflecting them by showing a shiny concept art image and promising some things that as usual have come to nothing.
CoreInsanity
30-08-11, 12:35
Hiya. I also disagree here by saying "Minecraft".
NC doesn't offer the latest render models of current games, but it offers things as housing, hacknet, dynamic armor and several other things that current games simply don't. :)
Again, I agree. Neocron is the best MMO I have played. However, this does not stop the fact that without a big community to back it up, or better looking graphics people will be turned off by simply looking at it.
Sure, features wise this game can compete. But,
1) The engine is out of date.
2) The code is very inefficient, I'm sure.
3) There are a ton of bugs, one of the biggest one is FREs which so far only the really loyal community has put up with for so long and these supposedly can't be fixed.
4) There are a bunch of hacks, and depending on how bad off their code is who knows if they can fix them all.
People don't generally go for games where cheating is as much of a problem as it is here, the company has been bashed to no end for the last couple years and the game has so many bugs it's not even funny.
Sure, I think if they fixed the bugs/hacks and had some kind of aggressive plan to advertise this game they could probably pull it off. But without aggressive advertising this game won't get noticed, and they will have to downplay the crap out of graphics in favor of features. Even then I know probably 5 people who are shallow enough to not try it on graphics alone but would actually love a game like this.
Again, I agree. Neocron is the best MMO I have played. However, this does not stop the fact that without a big community to back it up, or better looking graphics people will be turned off by simply looking at it.
Sure, features wise this game can compete. But,
1) The engine is out of date.
2) The code is very inefficient, I'm sure.
3) There are a ton of bugs, one of the biggest one is FREs which so far only the really loyal community has put up with for so long and these supposedly can't be fixed.
4) There are a bunch of hacks, and depending on how bad off their code is who knows if they can fix them all.
People don't generally go for games where cheating is as much of a problem as it is here, the company has been bashed to no end for the last couple years and the game has so many bugs it's not even funny.
Sure, I think if they fixed the bugs/hacks and had some kind of aggressive plan to advertise this game they could probably pull it off. But without aggressive advertising this game won't get noticed, and they will have to downplay the crap out of graphics in favor of features. Even then I know probably 5 people who are shallow enough to not try it on graphics alone but would actually love a game like this.
Good point, especially the fatals are something which definitely will upset new players. Most probably it will not be possible to attract many new people without rewriting the complete game to fix the fatals. Instead of trying to attract new people, i think it is easier to fix at least the most annyoing things, like cheating and the crappy interpolation, maybe reintroduce a hard speed cap and after fixing them write an email to all former customers and reinvite them, i promise, if things are really fixed, there will be many people who will return, especially once the word spreads that the most annyoing things have really been fixed.
To attract new people i think fixing the problems and advertising the pvp component of neocron would already help.
But i think at the moment we can only speculate about that, at the moment it is more important to know what is taking KK so long and how we can help to get that stuff fixed, there are many people who would be glad to help.
CoreInsanity
30-08-11, 15:38
Good point, especially the fatals are something which definitely will upset new players. Most probably it will not be possible to attract many new people without rewriting the complete game to fix the fatals. Instead of trying to attract new people, i think it is easier to fix at least the most annyoing things, like cheating and the crappy interpolation, maybe reintroduce a hard speed cap and after fixing them write an email to all former customers and reinvite them, i promise, if things are really fixed, there will be many people who will return, especially once the word spreads that the most annyoing things have really been fixed.
To attract new people i think fixing the problems and advertising the pvp component of neocron would already help.
But i think at the moment we can only speculate about that, at the moment it is more important to know what is taking KK so long and how we can help to get that stuff fixed, there are many people who would be glad to help.
Yeah, that's basically what I mean by my initial post on the last page.
1) The game is outdated, buggy and probably poorly coded by today's standards and was more than likely the code was not designed to be expanded upon.
2) There are a lot of hacks, bugs and technical limitations that seem to be in place for some stuff. For instance, FRE can't be fixed without getting a new engine (From what I remember reading a long time ago). Or the fact that the net code seems to be screwed up. Some of these seem to be caused by poorly planned out code, and some to just logic errors. I can point to a few exploits that honestly look like some one stuck an if statement in the wrong spot, or did an action in the wrong order (Not going to say more detail than that).
Like in my main post, the main issue I see here is the fact that they have no viable way or apparent plan to make the game prosper. As a business, they need money. As a dieing business, they need it more. Thus, neocron appears o be more work than reward so they push it off until later.
Even if you got back all the old players, I don't think they would be making enough to cover the costs of developing a game these days; and the only way to bring in money is to remake neocron.
The fact that every patch something seems to get broken indicates either extreme incompetence on the development staff (Doubting this) or the code is written poorly causing changes to become a problem. The code was probably not written with expansion in mind.
Either way, I would love to see NC survive. Through the company if they want to actually take care of the game, or through the community if the company can't afford it or doesn't want to try. Either way, NC open source is better than it getting shut down for good and us losing the game. We could at least fix it over time if it was open source.
But again, if KK actually has viable plans for the game, I would like to know what they are and what we are waiting on? If we are waiting on BP, how is BP doing? The company too, for that matter?
To quote my questions from the last page, and add one:
1) How is BP doing? Is it bringing in profit?
2) How is KK doing now financially? Are you stable?
3) What are your plans for NC3, or NC2. What are we waiting on for development and what (if anything) are you actively doing development wise on NC2/3?
4) Why won't you open source NC2 or 1 (If you even still have the source for 1)? Are you actually making money/have plans to make money off of it? Can you tell us what they are, or hint at them?. I would be very interested to know how you are going to make money off of an outdated buggy game.
5) Will you open source it if you can't develop it further/decide to not develop it anymore?
(I added the 5th)
CoreInsanity
30-08-11, 15:41
Opps. Double posted on accident.
Here is the sort of questions I would like to see an answer from Kirk.
1. When is the next Neocron 2 patch planned to be released?
2. What's the long term plans for Neocron 2?
3. What is Reakktor's view on the current state of communication to the community, and what plans do they have to change it? (If any).
4. What is Reakktor's view on the current state of in-game and out-of-game support, and what plans do they have to change it? (If any).
5. Would you like a cookie? ;)
Yeah, that's basically what I mean by my initial post on the last page.
1) The game is outdated, buggy and probably poorly coded by today's standards and was more than likely the code was not designed to be expanded upon.
2) There are a lot of hacks, bugs and technical limitations that seem to be in place for some stuff. For instance, FRE can't be fixed without getting a new engine (From what I remember reading a long time ago). Or the fact that the net code seems to be screwed up. Some of these seem to be caused by poorly planned out code, and some to just logic errors. I can point to a few exploits that honestly look like some one stuck an if statement in the wrong spot, or did an action in the wrong order (Not going to say more detail than that).
You don't need a new engine to fix FRE's. You need a debugger, and some time to track the issue. Also a bug report with how to recreate the FRE also helps. (Like Alt-tabbing in the wastelands while in full screen mode is one well known FRE, there are others I'm sure)
CoreInsanity
30-08-11, 16:34
You don't need a new engine to fix FRE's. You need a debugger, and some time to track the issue. Also a bug report with how to recreate the FRE also helps. (Like Alt-tabbing in the wastelands while in full screen mode is one well known FRE, there are others I'm sure)
Ah, well either way I just seem to remember them saying something about it being an issue with the engine or something that they couldn't fix. That's where I got that from. I wouldn't be surprised if it could be fixed with some time and debugging, with the help of some proper bug reports. Though they never seemed to get around to doing it :/
But still, the point of my post wasn't FREs.
So once more on the topic. You have to differ if you want a perfect game - impossible for every game and every company - or you want a good game compared to others.
Neutron already has lot of things that other games don't have and never had. Apart from graphics, where is the engine inferior to other mmorpgs? In Fallen Earth or Earthrise you also have elemental or physical damage classes. At least for FE you didn't have dynamic armor, your protection was always same, regardless how many times you were hit. Only healrate counted. Same will be for other mmorpgs
As far as bugs and fatals, let other games run 1 or more years without serviing, you'll see what you get...
Cheats and exploiters have the same origin - without a regulating instance, some people do what they want
So IMHO Neocron has the potential to also win several new customers. People who got disappointed by current mmorpgs on the market
CoreInsanity
30-08-11, 18:07
So once more on the topic. You have to differ if you want a perfect game - impossible for every game and every company - or you want a good game compared to others.
Neutron already has lot of things that other games don't have and never had. Apart from graphics, where is the engine inferior to other mmorpgs? In Fallen Earth or Earthrise you also have elemental or physical damage classes. At least for FE you didn't have dynamic armor, your protection was always same, regardless how many times you were hit. Only healrate counted. Same will be for other mmorpgs
As far as bugs and fatals, let other games run 1 or more years without serviing, you'll see what you get...
Cheats and exploiters have the same origin - without a regulating instance, some people do what they want
So IMHO Neocron has the potential to also win several new customers. People who got disappointed by current mmorpgs on the market
I honestly haven't tried those MMOs, except for Global Agenda. I don't really want to. And further, it doesn't matter.
My point is simple. I see this game as an excellent game. I love the mechanics, the community is really good and the gameplay is fun. This was the first MMO I have ever played and so far the best.
However, some random person who has never played this game doesn't know the gameplay is fun, the community is good and the mechanics of the game are fun. He sees screenshots of what looks like outdated graphics, and sees a ton of bugs and exploits.
That person is going to walk away thinking "That game is old and probably not worth my time" and more than likely not give it a second thought. This goes for the majority of people, general people, not neocron vets. I don't see Earthrise, Fallen earth, Global Agenda or any of those games really thriving. None of them are pulling in much money I would bet, and honestly I wouldn't be surprised if they shut down. All of them but global agenda and earthrise look like crap.
Global agenda and Earthrise have what Neocron doesn't, pretty graphics. But they lack in either gameplay or they have a ton of bugs. They draw people in, but people get bored or frustrated and leave. That's their flaw.
Neocron has the game play and over time could fix some of the bugs. But they need a way to draw people in. Graphics draw people in, features and good game play keep them paying money.
It's like trying to sell a car. You could have a great car on the inside; excellent motor, electronics, expensive radio system, really good seats and so on. But if that car looks beat up and rusty on the outside most people would pass it by without a second thought even though all it needs is a new paint job. Sure, some will stop and play it and love it. You and me for instance. But I don't think enough people would do that at first. That's probably why they are working on BP right now and not neocron. BP looks pretty, game play wise I don't know (I havn't played it).
Exploiting and bugs are not a side effect caused by lack of regulation. Exploiting is a side effect of bad code. So are a lot of the bugs that exist. I know, and have reported in the passed, I think most of the exploits. The fact that some of them work astonishes me, they are so stupid it's not even funny. This is not lack of some one banning cheaters, it's a lack of some one coding properly. Perhaps a byproduct of a system that wasn't designed to expand.
If they design an inflexible system and then try to bend it, it's going to break. That's what I think started most of these exploits. That's why they are so numerous.
Kirk Lenke
31-08-11, 00:26
Yeah, that's basically what I mean by my initial post on the last page.
1) The game is outdated, buggy and probably poorly coded by today's standards and was more than likely the code was not designed to be expanded upon.
2) There are a lot of hacks, bugs and technical limitations that seem to be in place for some stuff. For instance, FRE can't be fixed without getting a new engine (From what I remember reading a long time ago). Or the fact that the net code seems to be screwed up. Some of these seem to be caused by poorly planned out code, and some to just logic errors. I can point to a few exploits that honestly look like some one stuck an if statement in the wrong spot, or did an action in the wrong order (Not going to say more detail than that).
Like in my main post, the main issue I see here is the fact that they have no viable way or apparent plan to make the game prosper. As a business, they need money. As a dieing business, they need it more. Thus, neocron appears o be more work than reward so they push it off until later.
Even if you got back all the old players, I don't think they would be making enough to cover the costs of developing a game these days; and the only way to bring in money is to remake neocron.
The fact that every patch something seems to get broken indicates either extreme incompetence on the development staff (Doubting this) or the code is written poorly causing changes to become a problem. The code was probably not written with expansion in mind.
Either way, I would love to see NC survive. Through the company if they want to actually take care of the game, or through the community if the company can't afford it or doesn't want to try. Either way, NC open source is better than it getting shut down for good and us losing the game. We could at least fix it over time if it was open source.
But again, if KK actually has viable plans for the game, I would like to know what they are and what we are waiting on? If we are waiting on BP, how is BP doing? The company too, for that matter?
To quote my questions from the last page, and add one:
(I added the 5th)
You have nailed quite a lot of things here...But I will respond to it as promised.
Cheers
Kirk
P.S.: DOES THE COUNTER RESTART NOW? ;)
You have nailed quite a lot of things here...But I will respond to it as promised.
Cheers
Kirk
P.S.: DOES THE COUNTER RESTART NOW? ;)
Oh snap, it sure does.
EDIT- I think I will clarify the real purpose of the counters.
We care, we all care, and we are all waiting and watching. The best way to count the days since a response was a counter, and the best way to show we aren't forgetting and haven't forgotten was a counter. Neocron is VERY important to us and we don't want to let it go. Think of it like the first girl we ever had sex with, we don't want to let this girl go, yeah, she has been around the block a few times now, and has a few weird things that don't wash off easily, but a shot of penicillin and we can all be okay again, we just want to know when that shot is coming Kirk :)
Updates are being posted to Neocron.org with links to Kirks posts...
You have nailed quite a lot of things here...But I will respond to it as promised.
Cheers
Kirk
P.S.: DOES THE COUNTER RESTART NOW? ;)
it should but i dont think saying "But i will respond to as promised" will be classified as being a real repond to this post. If you answered his post with a real respond to his question/feedback about the game. then yes thats a real retart.
Oh snap, it sure does.
EDIT- I think I will clarify the real purpose of the counters.
We care, we all care, and we are all waiting and watching.
Quoted for truth (except the wierdness :p). It took me 8 years to realise it, but by god I want NC to floursih again. There has NEVER been another MMO that had/has me like NC did. Planetside came seriously close and was an asssload of fun with the guys I was playing with (The Halibuts) but coming back now and seeing that Kirk (and other devs too hopefully) do still look in on NC gives me some hope, and for that I will likely be staying a wee while longer yet.
You have nailed quite a lot of things here...But I will respond to it as promised.
Cheers
Kirk
P.S.: DOES THE COUNTER RESTART NOW? ;)
That's Mr Trip's counter, his call! :)
However, you now can progress to the next level where the questions get harder! ;)
CoreInsanity
01-09-11, 02:51
You have nailed quite a lot of things here...But I will respond to it as promised.
Cheers
Kirk
P.S.: DOES THE COUNTER RESTART NOW? ;)
Look forward to reading your response to our questions :)
Yeah, that's basically what I mean by my initial post on the last page.
1) The game is outdated, buggy and probably poorly coded by today's standards and was more than likely the code was not designed to be expanded upon.
2) There are a lot of hacks, bugs and technical limitations that seem to be in place for some stuff. For instance, FRE can't be fixed without getting a new engine (From what I remember reading a long time ago). Or the fact that the net code seems to be screwed up. Some of these seem to be caused by poorly planned out code, and some to just logic errors. I can point to a few exploits that honestly look like some one stuck an if statement in the wrong spot, or did an action in the wrong order (Not going to say more detail than that).
Like in my main post, the main issue I see here is the fact that they have no viable way or apparent plan to make the game prosper. As a business, they need money. As a dieing business, they need it more. Thus, neocron appears o be more work than reward so they push it off until later.
Even if you got back all the old players, I don't think they would be making enough to cover the costs of developing a game these days; and the only way to bring in money is to remake neocron.
The fact that every patch something seems to get broken indicates either extreme incompetence on the development staff (Doubting this) or the code is written poorly causing changes to become a problem. The code was probably not written with expansion in mind.
Either way, I would love to see NC survive. Through the company if they want to actually take care of the game, or through the community if the company can't afford it or doesn't want to try. Either way, NC open source is better than it getting shut down for good and us losing the game. We could at least fix it over time if it was open source.
But again, if KK actually has viable plans for the game, I would like to know what they are and what we are waiting on? If we are waiting on BP, how is BP doing? The company too, for that matter?
To quote my questions from the last page, and add one:
(I added the 5th)
I think Neocron going F2P open source could be the best thing to ever happen to it. Anyone with code or modding experience could help improve the game and enhance it. Hell, I'd rather just get a F2P rollback into NC1 days just to mess around with.
No way KK has the money or the manpower to actually remake Neocron in a timely fashion or in a way that's worth their time and effort.
I think Neocron going F2P open source could be the best thing to ever happen to it. Anyone with code or modding experience could help improve the game and enhance it. Hell, I'd rather just get a F2P rollback into NC1 days just to mess around with.
No way KK has the money or the manpower to actually remake Neocron in a timely fashion or in a way that's worth their time and effort.
I think that'd be a really good idea provided there was a group of people willing to spend their time developing the game. However, I'm not sure what state the game is in right now. It's possible that the engine might be too broken to be saved.
It'd be cool if someone could make it happen though. While I never got too far in the game, I've spent countless hours just wondering around the city.
CoreInsanity
01-09-11, 05:44
I think that'd be a really good idea provided there was a group of people willing to spend their time developing the game. However, I'm not sure what state the game is in right now. It's possible that the engine might be too broken to be saved.
It'd be cool if someone could make it happen though. While I never got too far in the game, I've spent countless hours just wondering around the city.
I think the code in general is broken, but I don't think it's too broken. I think it's just poorly written/designed. I think a group of people could fix it. The game isn't that big, the art is made, the database of items/mob locations/loot/etc is already there. It won't be like making a new game for people to fix it. Heck, I might learn C++ (I am assuming that's what it's written in) to help. Not like redoing WoW or EVE.
It wouldn't get fixed instantly, it would probably take a while. But it could be fixed, I'm sure.
I think the code in general is broken, but I don't think it's too broken. I think it's just poorly written/designed. I think a group of people could fix it. The game isn't that big, the art is made, the database of items/mob locations/loot/etc is already there. It won't be like making a new game for people to fix it. Heck, I might learn C++ (I am assuming that's what it's written in) to help. Not like redoing WoW or EVE.
It wouldn't get fixed instantly, it would probably take a while. But it could be fixed, I'm sure.
Your, sir, have stated a lot of true issues about the current state of neocron and its possible future.
The most important of your points in my opinion is the idea to have the community work for the game, especially the coders.
However, I have to disagree with you regarding one of your main points. While it is surely important to have the best graphics possible today for any game it must not be the priority for making Neocron interesting again for a bigger audience.
The main issue with neocron in my opinion are the bugs, especially the Fatal Errors and the synching problems, and the myriad of other exploits and netcode issues.
If I had to priorize the main issues that should be fixed first I would see them as follows:
1.) Fatal Errors
2.) Synch Problems
3.) Exploits, Hacks
The first two points are what every new player experiences instantly, and it destroys the whole experience that is Neocron. The vets put up with it but every new player won't.
The third point however is what puts the Vets off especially because they can't PVP properly.
In my opinion it has always been a big mistake to add new content to Neocron while not fixing these bugs because this approach makes the situation worse.
New graphics are new content again and this is not needed at the moment in my opinion.
Think about players with older computers, and players from other countries, like Russia, that maybe do not care about the graphics as much as a computer geek from England or Germany who is playing the newest games like Crysis 2 on his newest mega computer rig or on a alienware laptop.
How about focussing on fixing what we have this time, instead of adding new stuff again.
Thank you very much.
Regards
Ivan
The UI as stands is not good enough for a modern game. I can't see many truly new players, even if the game has a decent population, is more stable and cheater free, standing the clunky, outdated 10 year old UI.
The UI as stands is not good enough for a modern game. I can't see many truly new players, even if the game has a decent population, is more stable and cheater free, standing the clunky, outdated 10 year old UI.
while it is not as flashy and ridiculously "3d" as some modern games, in essence the HUD is quite well designed. The only thing it's not good at is scaling to current widescreen and huge resolutions.
try getting some of the more modern hud skins that are made by the community, and imagine a properly scaled ui ;)
and @Ivan Eres, putting fixing cheating behind the other two points is simply wrong. I suppose you haven't played recently, but the only reason the game is toxic is cheating and an inactive GM team. While the netcode could get an upgrade and clipping be fixed, cheating is and always has to be the number one priority. While pve is a huge part of the game, the vast majority will play this game to pvp at least part of the time, and as such will run into cheaters which will ruin the game for them.
It will also fix the toxicity of the game by removing the basis of most of the cheat accusations, as people will get shushed again for spouting bullshit, instead of currently most people just thinking (oh well, there's probably some truth in that).
CoreInsanity
01-09-11, 14:11
Your, sir, have stated a lot of true issues about the current state of neocron and its possible future.
The most important of your points in my opinion is the idea to have the community work for the game, especially the coders.
I think the best course for NC, unless Kirk says something pretty interesting regarding NC and their plans, is to have the community work on it.
This would, of course, give us the ability to run our own servers however. While I think this is a good thing, it does pose the problem of splitting the community. However, I have a feeling neocron.org or the techhaven network would pool the developers and become a more central server. Where as people like me would run one for fun, for myself and a few friends to mess around with the code. I would also play on that other server, though.
However, I have to disagree with you regarding one of your main points. While it is surely important to have the best graphics possible today for any game it must not be the priority for making Neocron interesting again for a bigger audience.
Well, don't get me wrong. Graphics is a big thing, but it's not everything. Graphics is merely the "fresh paint job" on the game to give it a good look in marketing. It doesn't need to best and amazing graphics around, just look at WoW.
What WoW has is a reputation that draws people in. People like community interaction; Good guild(clan in this case) options, good group activities (PVP and PVE), etc. Though I think WoW has died off in it's skill uniqueness. The setups have become cookie cutter and I think this is very bad.
Neocron has no real reputation. We have a few vets that say it's good (Including me). And despite the bugs, we continue playing. Neocron lacks something to draw people in at a glance (I don't consider a wall of features a glance. That's something they read after they are interested).
The main issue with neocron in my opinion are the bugs, especially the Fatal Errors and the synching problems, and the myriad of other exploits and netcode issues.
If I had to priorize the main issues that should be fixed first I would see them as follows:
1.) Fatal Errors
2.) Synch Problems
3.) Exploits, Hacks
The first two points are what every new player experiences instantly, and it destroys the whole experience that is Neocron. The vets put up with it but every new player won't.
The third point however is what puts the Vets off especially because they can't PVP properly.
In my opinion it has always been a big mistake to add new content to Neocron while not fixing these bugs because this approach makes the situation worse.
New graphics are new content again and this is not needed at the moment in my opinion.
Think about players with older computers, and players from other countries, like Russia, that maybe do not care about the graphics as much as a computer geek from England or Germany who is playing the newest games like Crysis 2 on his newest mega computer rig or on a alienware laptop.
How about focussing on fixing what we have this time, instead of adding new stuff again.
Thank you very much.
Regards
Ivan
If this game was to really turn into a viable source of income for the company, I think they would have to remake it.
Sure, we could prioritize a list and start fixing it. It would bring back some people, but I don't think it could get fixed and developed enough to become a viable source of income for the company. We are already talking about a niche game, which limits your audience from the start.
Really, the only way to answer the question/debate "Which is better? Building it from the ground up or fixing what we have" is research on KKs part. In marketing cost, development and potential audience size.
Can they actually market the game good enough in it's current (Fixed) state to bring in enough people to make money off it?
Can they fix the game enough to expand on it without breaking it?
Can the game in it's current (Fixed) state even handle an increased number of players (hundreds).
*What exactly will it take to fix the current state of Neocron?
How much will it cost them to fix NC compared to how much it will cost for them to make an NC3.
* This one is special. Neocron in it's current state is very rigid; It's code is static and unbending. Whoever made it initially did not have expansion in mind, they had "How can we make it do *this* and only this?" in mind. Thus, we have all these problems now.
This is one of Neocron's biggest flaws. This is probably why when they made NC2.2 the game started to break rapidly. For instance, they went from having static apartments to having players place furniture in them. Or they went from having just skills to having WoC skills and weapons. They updated some of the graphics, etc. All of this was "bending" the code. All of this bending caused small cracks; combine that with lack of testing, development and the initially poorly designed code that was there to begin with and you have all the bugs and exploits we have today.
Fixing this isn't going to be a simple "Jump in and move some code around". It may even take a redesign of the core of the game. Some hacks work because the server is stupid and takes information it shouldn't from the client when it should be the other way around. Some stuff works because it removes an item from the players inventory AFTER it does whatever said item should do. I could go into a detailed list of exploits that work because the game does stuff stupid because of how it was designed, but I have a feeling KK wouldn't like that and it might make the current situation in game worse.
Edit: Yeah, a new HUD would be useful. Though, honestly, I miss the old NC1 UI. Personally I love what WoW has, I love being able to make addons or use addons for that game to completely customize my UI. I have spent a lot of time tweaking it, and it looks nothing like the default UI; everything is where I can easily see it and it's functional for every class I play.
Also, please never make the NC inventory system work like fallout/oblivion. I hate that list crap.
I think the best course for NC, unless Kirk says something pretty interesting regarding NC and their plans, is to have the community work on it.
This would, of course, give us the ability to run our own servers however. While I think this is a good thing, it does pose the problem of splitting the community. However, I have a feeling neocron.org or the techhaven network would pool the developers and become a more central server. Where as people like me would run one for fun, for myself and a few friends to mess around with the code. I would also play on that other server, though.
I'm not sure how neocron.org is run, I'll let MrTrip speak for himself.
Got to ask, how would the techhaven network pool the developers and become a more central server? I'm not quite following what you are trying to say here. (Also out of the THN admin team, I'll point out there are only 2-3 devs)
Also until I know what direction KK is going to do with Neocron, I can't say what direction the THN is going to take. I've got quite a few plans which have been sitting on the shelf for the last few years as KK haven't been able to tell us (as in the community) what they are going to do with Neocron.
while it is not as flashy and ridiculously "3d" as some modern games, in essence the HUD is quite well designed. The only thing it's not good at is scaling to current widescreen and huge resolutions.
try getting some of the more modern hud skins that are made by the community, and imagine a properly scaled ui ;)
There's more to a GUI than how it looks. Regardless of looks(and neocron 1 had a prettier and slightly more usable HUD), the actual user interface in Neocron is terrible and a real pain in the arse to use.
It wasn't great 9 years ago (but it was acceptable), it definitely isn't acceptable anymore.
I think the best course for NC, unless Kirk says something pretty interesting regarding NC and their plans, is to have the community work on it.
This would, of course, give us the ability to run our own servers however. While I think this is a good thing, it does pose the problem of splitting the community. However, I have a feeling neocron.org or the techhaven network would pool the developers and become a more central server. Where as people like me would run one for fun, for myself and a few friends to mess around with the code. I would also play on that other server, though.
I think the problem you mention is far worse than you expect. I personally would expect that the community would totally break apart if you make NC open source, because everyone has his or her own opinion how this game should be and therefore an equal amount of servers will be set up. That's most probably one of the reasons, why KK hasn't made NC open source. Therefore i don't like the idea of NC being open source. For a game and also other projects it is most often a good think if they are not developed in a democratic way where everyone's opinion is equally worth. It is much better if everyone may discuss things, but only a few people decide, especiall if it comes down to a huge project like MMORPG.
But maybe it is possible to find some devs with good references in the community who will sign a contract with KK to work on NC without being paid. What NC definitely does not need is developers who just started to learn/mess around with C++. That's another point why i don't like the open source idea. Maybe Kirk will tell us what he things about it :)
There's more to a GUI than how it looks. Regardless of looks(and neocron 1 had a prettier and slightly more usable HUD), the actual user interface in Neocron is terrible and a real pain in the arse to use.
It wasn't great 9 years ago (but it was acceptable), it definitely isn't acceptable anymore.
I respectfully disagree, from an interaction design point of view, the interface (I'm not talking about the cluttered menu, that's bad, I'm talking about the HUD), is actually pretty good for a game this complex. The map and compass allows navigation, the quickbelt allows for mapping of actions to functionality, the healthbar (when used with colours) is clear and absolute, the chat and local area is in the only spot a social game like this could have it. The only thing is that the minimap bugs away half the time, health doesnt always update fast enough, and the rest of the menus are waaaaay too cluttered. (by the menu I mean the whole clutter that pops up when u press tab, I agree that that is indeed a horrible GUI).
if you are a gui designer, feel free to counter this with more indepth terminology and descriptors, I would love to actually discuss this :)
CoreInsanity
01-09-11, 16:06
I'm not sure how neocron.org is run, I'll let MrTrip speak for himself.
I have known MrTrip since beta 4 of NC1. Knowing him and how much he loves NC I'm fairly sure he would want to (and could) run a server if it became possible for him to do so.
Of course, that's completely up to him.
Got to ask, how would the techhaven network pool the developers and become a more central server? I'm not quite following what you are trying to say here. (Also out of the THN admin team, I'll point out there are only 2-3 devs)
Also until I know what direction KK is going to do with Neocron, I can't say what direction the THN is going to take. I've got quite a few plans which have been sitting on the shelf for the last few years as KK haven't been able to tell us (as in the community) what they are going to do with Neocron.
I was merely suggesting that being an organized group like THN is, and being really the only third party "group"/resource for neocron, it would be plausible that with open sourcing NC would come THN having an interest in doing something with the source.
It's like if you had a fansite for a game that wasn't moddable, and then the company releases an editor of some kind making it moddable. There is a good chance that fansite would expand to accommodate mods and modding tutorials, if they had the resources to do so.
I would guess if NC was open source, and you started hosting documentation on the code or hosting a test server to fix it, developers would probably go there in the interest of working with a group and fixing it quicker. It wouldn't make sense for every developer here that has an interest in fixing NC to go off and try to do it by themselves.
My main point was mostly that if the server went open source, some one would probably create a group that was dedicated to fixing it so they could pool the man power and knowledge of the developers in the community. THN came to mind because you are (like I said) one of the only (if not the only, now) resource / group for NC. You're like the wowhead+wowwiki of neocron.
Edit: Just saw there was a page 9 now.
I think the problem you mention is far worse than you expect. I personally would expect that the community would totally break apart if you make NC open source, because everyone has his or her own opinion how this game should be and therefore an equal amount of servers will be set up. That's most probably one of the reasons, why KK hasn't made NC open source. Therefore i don't like the idea of NC being open source. For a game and also other projects it is most often a good think if they are not developed in a democratic way where everyone's opinion is equally worth. It is much better if everyone may discuss things, but only a few people decide, especiall if it comes down to a huge project like MMORPG.
This is a good point I had not considered. However, when you look at it who's idea are we supposed to base game balance off of?
People disagree with KK and other people who suggest stuff. That problem already exists, and is partially why neocron is the way it is today. The only way that will get fixed is for KK to (for the most part) ignore what the community thinks balance should be and, though lots of testing and trial, change the game to be balanced the way they want.
The problem I see happening is developers split off from the main group and start working on it themselves. This would leave the main group short on manpower.
It's true it might get worse if NC becomes open source, but I would rather see some people fighting over game balance in open source rather than the game completely gone.
Besides, it's not hard for some one to modify the balance in the game. It's not so complex to modify that. The complex part of what the developers are going to be doing is fixing the actual core architecture of the code. Not the game item balance.
But, it's like I said. I only *really* want neocron open source if the only other option is shutting it down or leaving it exactly like it is and not fixing/developing it, and not making an NC3. It might as well be dead if it's just going to sit like this until they finally shut it down, it's just a really slow death.
But maybe it is possible to find some devs with good references in the community who will sign a contract with KK to work on NC without being paid. What NC definitely does not need is developers who just started to learn/mess around with C++. That's another point why i don't like the open source idea. Maybe Kirk will tell us what he things about it :)
There is nothing wrong with people learning C++ or whatever language this is written in using the source. Of course, you wouldn't want to accept commits/patches from anyone who hasn't proven a competent and experienced coder.
My comment was that I would probably just run a server locally, or locally + a few friends of mine for me personally to learn C++ with it. I would never expect to be able to commit my changes to any centralized repository, like something KK or whoever organizes it would setup, until I have become very experienced with the language and the source itself. At that, if no one controlled how patches/commits were applied it would be a very bad thing. I would guess they would go through some kind of review process by the community who setup the repository and test server. That's how private server developers handle it for the most part and aside from random emo crap that they tend to pull sometimes, it works quite well.
We care, we all care, and we are all waiting and watching. The best way to count the days since a response was a counter, and the best way to show we aren't forgetting and haven't forgotten was a counter. Neocron is VERY important to us and we don't want to let it go. Think of it like the first girl we ever had sex with, we don't want to let this girl go, yeah, she has been around the block a few times now, and has a few weird things that don't wash off easily, but a shot of penicillin and we can all be okay again, we just want to know when that shot is coming Kirk :)
I think I might.. *HURL*
Neocron.org would be all for becoming a central development site for Neocron and accepting code changes by the community for review to be included in a main server.
I have the resources to host an American Neocron server, be it NC1 or 2.2, I also have the manpower to staff the server with GMs, respond quickly to in game support tickets, and resolve any issues server side should one happen to go down.
We are just waiting for an okay and a server base to work with *thumbs up*
Neocron.org would be all for becoming a central development site for Neocron and accepting code changes by the community for review to be included in a main server.
I have the resources to host an American Neocron server, be it NC1 or 2.2, I also have the manpower to staff the server with GMs, respond quickly to in game support tickets, and resolve any issues server side should one happen to go down.
We are just waiting for an okay and a server base to work with *thumbs up*
Impressive stuff! I'd be all for helping out too, as would many around these forums I'm sure. Hey I can't code for shit but being able to do "something" would be good.
I have to get serious now. This thread was started by LOKI with the aim to get a word from Kirk onto the future of Neocron 2 plus showing up some issues that could be worked around without too much hastles.
On page 6, Kirk gave his first reply after a long time, saying he'll check through the thread and give a statement afterward.
After that, people came from everywhere and start making wild claims and demands and what not all else could/should/must change...
1.) We are talking about an MMORPG game created 2002/2007 by Reakktor Media. KK had dedicated programmers, graphic artists and people whose daily job was to make or improve software. Their combined efforts made Neocron possible which was the first MMOFPS and also the first MMORPG/FPS ever.
2.) Your talks about make it F2P or open source is BS/CRAP/HORSEDUNG. There are enough F2P games on the market, why don't you play these and rather paid money for Neocron before? I bet I already know the answer. Furthermore, I've seen dozens of threads that people wrote "Hey, we make an MMO ourself" which in the end turned out to be nothing but hot air. I know nobody who'd invest all of their time into something that they don't get any benefit from - and that is for a programmer. Most other people like you and me who go to work and back every weekday to earn their cash will have even less time and energy (not mentioning skills) to invest for get nothing for it.
3.) The graphics are not nice and the effects are blah. Well my friends, there are games with better graphics out there - i said it several times before. Then go and play those games, but then you also get the sh*t from these games as pointless/suck PVP, snore combat, imbalanced weapon and classes, suck crafting, no housing. If that's what you want, go for it. Here is your F2P MMORPG/FPS (http://www.gamersfirst.com/fallenearth/)
4.) Some peeps like this, some peeps like that and some know already since years that everything sucks. Well, for the first 2 groups, you should take an example on the Black Prophecy Community. BP is the current F2P Space Opera game by Reakktor which received some harsh criticism before. Nevertheless, people from the community combined their efforts and wrote an open letter (http://blackprophecy.gamigo.com/forum/showthread.php?t=16689) to KK, which finally lead to an rather positive result, namely the next addon with complex changes to a better gameplay experiences. For Neocron it would be helpfull if you can focus on the game itself and what is reasonable. Give that as a clear feedback to KK and that's something they can work on.
For the third "everything sucks" group, take a look in the mirror :lol:
You do make a good point Kamuix99 (if a little ranty :p) but in all honesty, what is there to lose by just discussing possibilities amongst ourselves until Kirk does reply?
The more feedback / information and suggestions Kirk gets the more in depth he would be able to make a reply. If the whole F2P or Open Source ideas are not in his thinking then he'll simply say so, no harm done at all.
Yesterday some Neocron MP3s fell into my random queue and I started remembering the great time I had in Neocron. And now I am baffled that there is still so much activity going on in its forum.
Just wanted to say that I used to love NC and that I think it would be a delight to see it buzzing again. No other game has left so many good memories.
Btw. can anyone point me to a source about the general status of NC and KK, if there is one?
CoreInsanity
01-09-11, 22:10
Alright I'm going to assume at least some (if not all) of this is aimed at me, so here we go.
I have to get serious now. This thread was started by LOKI with the aim to get a word from Kirk onto the future of Neocron 2 plus showing up some issues that could be worked around without too much hastles.
You were not serious before?
On page 6, Kirk gave his first reply after a long time, saying he'll check through the thread and give a statement afterward.
Which I still look forward to hearing.
After that, people came from everywhere and start making wild claims and demands and what not all else could/should/must change...
Nothing I have said has been a "wild claim". It's all based off of evidence I have seen and logic.
1.) We are talking about an MMORPG game created 2002/2007 by Reakktor Media. KK had dedicated programmers, graphic artists and people whose daily job was to make or improve software. Their combined efforts made Neocron possible which was the first MMOFPS and also the first MMORPG/FPS ever.
Yes, and they did a great job back then. Those developers are gone, if I recall. The people who worked on NC2 aren't the same, afaik. I believe Codi left a long time ago (I don't remember why).
2.) Your talks about make it F2P or open source is BS/CRAP/HORSEDUNG. There are enough F2P games on the market, why don't you play these and rather paid money for Neocron before? I bet I already know the answer. Furthermore, I've seen dozens of threads that people wrote "Hey, we make an MMO ourself" which in the end turned out to be nothing but hot air. I know nobody who'd invest all of their time into something that they don't get any benefit from - and that is for a programmer. Most other people like you and me who go to work and back every weekday to earn their cash will have even less time and energy (not mentioning skills) to invest for get nothing for it.
Please, do tell what you bet you already know.
Also, there are pleanty of people out there who would gladly work on fixing NC. There are a lot of people who really love the game and have the skills to fix it in their spare time. Sure, not everyone would, but some would. And some is more than what KK has done in the past few years.
But, as I have said in previous posts (Which quite frankly I'm guessing you didn't even bother reading fully): You are missing the point.
I am not saying I want neocron open sourced at all costs. I am saying that I want it open sourced if KK are going to kill it off and shut down the game. If they aren't going to make an NC3 and aren't going to continue developing NC2 or NC in any way then it would be nice if the community had a chance to keep it alive. They take no loss that I am aware of releasing the source if they have no plans to do anything with the game anyway. If the game dies, it's gone. That's it, no more NC. No money coming into them from it, etc. If they release it to us at that point, at least we can TRY to fix it.
I don't know where you keep coming up with this crap like I want a F2P opensource game, as if I want neocron to turn into some garbage with a bunch of pay to win crap in it. I want neocron to survive. Either by KK (preferably), or by the community if KK doesn't care anymore/can't make money off it/whatever and are going to shut it down..
3.) The graphics are not nice and the effects are blah. Well my friends, there are games with better graphics out there - i said it several times before. Then go and play those games, but then you also get the sh*t from these games as pointless/suck PVP, snore combat, imbalanced weapon and classes, suck crafting, no housing. If that's what you want, go for it. Here is your F2P MMORPG/FPS (http://www.gamersfirst.com/fallenearth/)
Again, you're missing my point.
THE GRAPHICS ATTRACT NEW CUSTOMERS. IT'S SOMETHING THEY SEE THAT DRAWS THEM TO THE GAME, THEN THE GAME PLAY GETS THEM PAYING. Why you can't seem to wrap your head around this marketing concept makes no sense to me. I could care less about the graphics, KK on the other hand has to. If all it took was gameplay to sell a game, then every game would look like crap so they could save the development time. The graphics don't need to be perfect, and they might even be able to do it without redoing the graphics.
Either way, my point is and has always been They need something to draw in customers from an advertisement. It can't be some complicated paragraph describing the gameplay, it needs to be a quick "at a glance" type of thing. That's what graphics are.
4.) Some peeps like this, some peeps like that and some know already since years that everything sucks. Well, for the first 2 groups, you should take an example on the Black Prophecy Community. BP is the current F2P Space Opera game by Reakktor which received some harsh criticism before. Nevertheless, people from the community combined their efforts and wrote an open letter (http://blackprophecy.gamigo.com/forum/showthread.php?t=16689) to KK, which finally lead to an rather positive result, namely the next addon with complex changes to a better gameplay experiences. For Neocron it would be helpfull if you can focus on the game itself and what is reasonable. Give that as a clear feedback to KK and that's something they can work on.
For the third "everything sucks" group, take a look in the mirror :lol:
Good for BP. I am happy for them, they got KK to do something. But the thing is, BP is what KK are using to save the company. So yes they are going to do everything in their power to keep that game, and in tern the company, afloat.
I'm not trying to come off as ranting, but quite frankly you're replying to me as if I am some idiot who thinks the game should go open source at all costs, graphics are all that matters and I want a free run. And quite frankly that is completely wrong, and I'm sick of explaining it.
I have been playing this game since beta 4 of Neocron classic, I would be happy to continue paying for this over WoW any day - but only if they actively fix it. I could donate 50/m and it still wouldn't fix neocron. So could all of you, probably. I don't think you realise how much money it takes to make or fix an MMO as screwed up as neocron is. They can't sit down with a debugger and fix it in 5 minutes, you're probably talking months of testing and bug tracking especially given how they have to take care of BP. This costs money, and that's just to fix what they have.
I made my original questions two or three pages back. They are valid questions that aim to get an idea of how KK is doing financially and how good BP is doing for them, and what their plans are for neocron. These are important questions the answers of which have a huge impact on what happens to this game.
This is a discussion forum, I am discussing possibilities for the game, both KK controlled and not. I am not demanding anything, I am stating points.
Edit: Also, I can't give clear feedback on what is reasonable. I have no idea what state the company is in and what they could actually put to fixing it.
You do make a good point Kamuix99 (if a little ranty :p) but in all honesty, what is there to lose by just discussing possibilities amongst ourselves until Kirk does reply?
The more feedback / information and suggestions Kirk gets the more in depth he would be able to make a reply. If the whole F2P or Open Source ideas are not in his thinking then he'll simply say so, no harm done at all.
Yup, i know it's a rant, but I had to let off some steam. As player also I made lots of suggestions in other Forums before. However, the experiences I've made were that only if there was a broad consens of the community on a certain subject, the Devs actually made a move - everything else were just opinion of single players.
Now, looking at NC2, we know that it's not in the Focus of KK and therefore one shouldn't expect wonders. The only consens so far was that people are dissatisfied with the game as it is now, from that point on opinions break into a lot of personal opinions and wild speculations or wishes.
Kirk and KK can't work wonders, they can't turn neocron into Battlefield 3, neither they can turn it into EVE Online. What they can do though, is do some corrections toward better accesability, greater stability and cheat protection.
With these corrections Neocron actually IS an valid MMORPGFPS for the current market. The game doesn't offer Graphic extravaganza, but rather a deep and detailed gameworld plus reasonable PVP, dynamic combat and crafting which younger and graphical more advanced games simply doesn't.
@Kamuix99: KK had to respond to the open letter due to Gamigo being involved in the Dev process mate! duh!
I don't care if the graphics sucks i do care about gameplay and ingame content! i still do play id tech 3 games even if looks bad but they are unique games (RtCW, ET:W, JK: JO, JK:JA, SoF series)
Go play on your fancy shitty console if you love good looking graphics more than gameplay, storyline, game content and whatnot!
CoreInsanity
01-09-11, 22:24
Yup, i know it's a rant, but I had to let off some steam. As player also I made lots of suggestions in other Forums before. However, the experiences I've made were that only if there was a broad consens of the community on a certain subject, the Devs actually made a move - everything else were just opinion of single players.
Now, looking at NC2, we know that it's not in the Focus of KK and therefore one shouldn't expect wonders. The only consens so far was that people are dissatisfied with the game as it is now, from that point on opinions break into a lot of personal opinions and wild speculations or wishes.
Kirk and KK can't work wonders, they can't turn neocron into Battlefield 3, neither they can turn it into EVE Online. What they can do though, is do some corrections toward better accesability, greater stability and cheat protection.
With these corrections Neocron actually IS an valid MMORPGFPS for the current market. The game doesn't offer Graphic extravaganza, but rather a deep and detailed gameworld plus reasonable PVP, dynamic combat and crafting which younger and graphical more advanced games simply doesn't.
Tell you what; You make an advertisement that sells this game and gets, at a glance, some one interested in the game. That's my point. Nothing more, nothing less.
Graphics are eye catching. Most people aren't just going to read a bunch of text on an advertisement. If the advertisement catches their eye, they will.
I am saying they need a way to sell the game, and graphics is one of the most popular ways to catch peoples attention and draw them in.
I am not saying redo the graphics, I am just saying I don't know how they are going to market the game with bad graphics. I also said that is something I would love for Kirk to answer in my first post I believe.
Edit: I would also like to point out that since they haven't told us their financial state, plans for neocron and in general what they can actually do then we can't do anything aside from:
1) Tell them to fix the cheats
2) Tell them to fix the bugs
3) Speculate on different ways the game can survive.
CoreInsanity>
What you keep repeating is they need advertisal, they need marketing, they need etc. etc. to attract new people. This discussion is first about getting an update on the further developement of Neocron in hope for maintenance and repairs to get the cart from the dirt and things working.
Despite that, I see lot of people returning to NC lately, also several newcomers. The greatest obstacle for new customers now is that only C2P is available for subscription which causes massive troubles to potential customers in the US and were also part of LOKIs opening.
One element thats already in effect for Neocron is mouth propaganda. People returning to the game, coz they heard from their friends or mates on TS or wherever else that there's movement on the NC horizone. Newcomers who get in here are not impressed by graphics but rather by their own apartment, fast paced combat, FFA pvp zones and crafting system with slots and expansions.
You won't see KK starting an media campaign for NC as their funds are limited. Their current game Black Prophecy is advertised by Gamigo. In these days, there are many games you haven't heard from in TV, magazines or game shops. You disvover them by browsing the net, and you get a feel for the game not by looking at screenshots but by using a 14 days trial.
With regards to your open source and community project, if KK decides to jump the NC boat. Nice thoughts, but at first they won't be of interest for KK if they realy decide to dump it and at second there have been similar projects for other games (i.e. Tabula Rasa) that didn't got too far. For interacting with KK on a still alive NC it doesn't play a role.
Last but not least, what is reasonable? Reasonable are goals that can be achieved within the limits of the game engine on one side, and the limits of Reakktor as company on the other side. Creating new Payment options ain't not a problem, installing cheat protection takes time but seems practical, bugtracking and fixing also takes some while (as you said yourself) but still is realistic and possible if KK wants to. Anything beyond that point is merely uncertain.
CoreInsanity
01-09-11, 23:28
CoreInsanity>
What you keep repeating is they need advertisal, they need marketing, they need etc. etc. to attract new people. This discussion is first about getting an update on the further developement of Neocron in hope for maintenance and repairs to get the cart from the dirt and things working.
Despite that, I see lot of people returning to NC lately, also several newcomers. The greatest obstacle for new customers now is that only C2P is available for subscription which causes massive troubles to potential customers in the US and were also part of LOKIs opening.
One element thats already in effect for Neocron is mouth propaganda. People returning to the game, coz they heard from their friends or mates on TS or wherever else that there's movement on the NC horizone. Newcomers who get in here are not impressed by graphics but rather by their own apartment, fast paced combat, FFA pvp zones and crafting system with slots and expansions.
You won't see KK starting an media campaign for NC as their funds are limited. Their current game Black Prophecy is advertised by Gamigo. In these days, there are many games you haven't heard from in TV, magazines or game shops. You disvover them by browsing the net, and you get a feel for the game not by looking at screenshots but by using a 14 days trial.
With regards to your open source and community project, if KK decides to jump the NC boat. Nice thoughts, but at first they won't be of interest for KK if they realy decide to dump it and at second there have been similar projects for other games (i.e. Tabula Rasa) that didn't got too far. For interacting with KK on a still alive NC it doesn't play a role.
Last but not least, what is reasonable? Reasonable are goals that can be achieved within the limits of the game engine on one side, and the limits of Reakktor as company on the other side. Creating new Payment options ain't not a problem, installing cheat protection takes time but seems practical, bugtracking and fixing also takes some while (as you said yourself) but still is realistic and possible if KK wants to. Anything beyond that point is merely uncertain.
All of this to some degree is kind of my original point.
KK is broke, as far as I can tell. The only real source of income they can count on is BP. Thus my original comment was, given that, I don't know how they will keep NC alive. What is reasonable indeed, we don't even know that they have the manpower or money to fix neocron at this point, hence why I want to know what the state of their company is and what the state of BP is along with the plans for neocron.
I'm not saying they need to start a marketing campaign, I am simply saying that if they want neocron to become a viable source of income they have to market it and do what they did with BP to a degree (Make it noticable, advertise, etc).
Sure, there are some people coming in. But without money going to development, those people won't stay. And we don't even know if they can afford the money to do even that. The number of people, even if paying, that are currently playing the game aren't enough to cover the cost of development. I am guessing right now the cost and risk is too high for them to fix the game, thus they haven't done it.
I don't think I have ever heard of a game get canceled that has gone open source. I'm fairly sure Tabula Rasa didn't. At best some one probably tried to make an emulator for it, which would fail due to lack of an active game and lack of people with enough experience to do it. Making an emulator is not easy, and is not what I'm suggesting. What I am suggesting is that if possible when or if KK decides to shut down NC for good, release the source code to the game and let us keep it alive.
As I have said, and MrTrip himself, neocron.org would be happy to be the development center for it. At least then the game doesn't die.
Honestly, I don't know that it will ever really happen. I would love to see that rather than the game die, but it is unlikely.
About the only thing there is to hang on to is the fact that the servers are still running, which means they are at least thinking about something. We just don't know what or how.
Edit: Also my main point with the advertising was that the game won't survive unless they get people in. Word of mouth won't be enough. Thus advertising, they need to think bigger than a few hundred fans. As the CEO of the company he needs to be thinking how he can make the game viable to make profit. He needs to think about a bigger picture than just fixing a few bugs and banning a few cheaters - provided he has the resources to do this.
I am going to guess what they are thinking (to some degree anyway) is: fix NC2 when they start to be able to develop NC3 (And maybe have something to show for 3). This could help get people back into NC2, advertise for NC3 and show that the company is progressing forward nicely. Kind of a "Hey look, we're back on our feet and serious about this" kind of a thing.
what's the point of discussing the open source idea? KK have said multiple times in the past that it is never going to happen. Partly because they have contracts with other companies that prohibit it, and probably also because it would take huge amounts of time to supervise (of course they're not going to give away complete control of the game... even KK is not that stupid).
CoreInsanity
02-09-11, 00:43
what's the point of discussing the open source idea?
Because it would be cool for the game to not die completely.
KK have said multiple times in the past that it is never going to happen. Partly because they have contracts with other companies that prohibit it, and probably also because it would take huge amounts of time to supervise (of course they're not going to give away complete control of the game... even KK is not that stupid).
News to me. I didn't know they had contracts with other companies preventing them from doing it, though that makes sense. I also didn't know they had actually commented on it.
iirc, they licensed 2 rendering engines, one for interior (inside buildings) and one for terrain. that's why they can't go open source with the current code.
CoreInsanity
02-09-11, 01:22
iirc, they licensed 2 rendering engines, one for interior (inside buildings) and one for terrain. that's why they can't go open source with the current code.
Makes sense, if that were the case then they wouldn't be able to release the full source to the game. They could release everything but the engine, but all that would allow people to really do is either replace the engine or make a new server/client based on their code. But that's really pointless.
iirc, they licensed 2 rendering engines, one for interior (inside buildings) and one for terrain. that's why they can't go open source with the current code.
that would also make sense, open source would need to use an open source engine, but the contracts I was talking about were more on the art side of things I think. (which was also why they couldn't hire community members for art, since they had stupid contract that forces them to hire certain companies to do art for them (note, this is how i remember it, but am not 100% sure))
But ye, KK have definitively said that open source is not an option. (open sourcing or using some open source engine has come up every few months in the past few years).
(omfg I just noticed my post count... I really shud get a life)
CoreInsanity
02-09-11, 01:25
that would also make sense, open source would need to use an open source engine, but the contracts I was talking about were more on the art side of things I think. (which was also why they couldn't hire community members for art, since they had stupid contract that forces them to hire certain companies to do art for them (note, this is how i remember it, but am not 100% sure))
But ye, KK have definitively said that open source is not an option. (open sourcing or using some open source engine has come up every few months in the past few years).
Yeah, it sounds like they would have a lot of problems releasing the source, then. Which makes more sense now. Let's really hope they come through and fix it up.
blegh, I just hope Kirk doesn't start promising stuff again and distract us with some more concept art. I just want an explanation for past behavior, admission of failure and a true insight in what is going on, instead of empty promises and outright lies. If it's gonna take years, just say so, instead of stringing us along with some shiny trinkets.
I also don't get why it is again taking days to just post something. Taking this long just smacks of past behavior, I don't want big announcements or reveals, I want to be kept in the loop.
questions I'd like answered:
- Who is responsible for the incompetent communication with us users?
- Is it going to get any better?
- Why did we get lied to when they said they were working on the patch (it doesn't take a year to debug a patch for any game, including neocron, if the largest base for the patch is already done), and what actually happened?
- Are you at this point working on the anti-cheat patch or if not, is there an actual planning for getting it done, or are you waiting for some time when BP doesn't require constant attention?
Thing I don't want:
- futuristic concept art for neocron 3 unless development has actually started properly.
- promises of things that are going to happen in the future. in the past 5 years, KK has never given us any reason to believe in any of their promises (no promise has been kept in the past 5 years)
kk outsource all or most 3d content to a single company the very same that did BP content! lame idea!
I respectfully disagree, from an interaction design point of view, the interface (I'm not talking about the cluttered menu, that's bad, I'm talking about the HUD), is actually pretty good for a game this complex. The map and compass allows navigation, the quickbelt allows for mapping of actions to functionality, the healthbar (when used with colours) is clear and absolute, the chat and local area is in the only spot a social game like this could have it. The only thing is that the minimap bugs away half the time, health doesnt always update fast enough, and the rest of the menus are waaaaay too cluttered. (by the menu I mean the whole clutter that pops up when u press tab, I agree that that is indeed a horrible GUI).
if you are a gui designer, feel free to counter this with more indepth terminology and descriptors, I would love to actually discuss this :)
Why do you keep going back to the HUD? There's far more to the interface than the HUD and yet you keep arguing that because the HUD is ok, the rest doesn't matter/is unimportant.
It could be the language barrier, but regardless, no point arguing with you as you'll probably just say "The HUD is good!!!" :)
kk outsource all or most 3d content to a single company the very same that did BP content! lame idea!
Its not all bad as if KK have to use the same people for the content, we can be sure any graphics development (be it NC3 or whatever if it really is on the go) will look good! BP is very nice graphically, just that the game blows compared to NC lol.
Why do you keep going back to the HUD? There's far more to the interface than the HUD and yet you keep arguing that because the HUD is ok, the rest doesn't matter/is unimportant.
It could be the language barrier, but regardless, no point arguing with you as you'll probably just say "The HUD is good!!!" :)
lol, I had originally read ui as in hud, because most people think thats the ui, and in the next post I assumed the same. However, of the ui, the hud is by far the most difficult to get right, menus are relatively easy to design with current standard interfaces, so ye, a redesign of the GUI isnt that difficult with the current HUD as a base (wireframe, not graphical design). But you are right that it should be redesigned, though I don't think it's the problem considering the rest of the problems of the game ;)
Okay all;
I just got off the phone after a 20 minute conversation with Kirk Lenke. On reading my post, and a couple of the PM's I have sent him over the months, he asked for a contact number to call me on.
In the 20 minutes we had on the phone, we discussed a lot about Neocron, its current state and its future. Kirk went into a lot of detail about certain things that I'm not sure I can discuss here, so I'll share with you the basics of what he specifically said I could talk about.
Pretty much the first point that came up was IP (Intellectual Property). I don't think I am over-stepping the line in saying this, as I'm pretty sure this is information that could be obtained from various Google searches/phone calls. Neocron is the IP of ReaKKtor Media, and Black Prophecy is the IP of Gamigo. So... what does that mean?
Essentially, it means that the team at KK are paid to work on BP, and only BP. They are not paid to work on Neocron. As such, the (failed) 174 patch of over a year ago was worked on by their developers in their FREE TIME. This is a big deal, and is something I wasn't entirely aware of prior to our phone call. This isn't the only issue though.
Kirk also confirmed what we already knew. The code is old, haggered and an utter nightmare to work with.
On a plus note, however, work is currently underway on re-developing the anti-cheat patch which failed many months ago; again, in their free time. Kirk did give me a rough ETA, but I can't share that. If he feels it's a date they can stick to, then I'm sure he will share it when he responds to this thread.
Kirk seemed like a nice bloke, and it seems I may have misjudged him based only on his lack of presence on this forum. It was clear to me on that phone call that Kirk is genuine when he says he cares about Neocron, and is proud of what the game achieved many years ahead of its time. I believe him when he says he is working on kick starting the development of Neocron 3, but for the reasons outlined above, there's a lot more to it than just taking 'some' of the team off Black Prophecy. Sadly, it's never going to be that simple.
Kirk was honest with me about everything I asked. Nothing was ignored or brushed away. Again, I wish I could share the entirety of our conversation, but some of what Kirk said is better left for him to share himself.
He said he'd take the time to read and reply to this at some point next week, and he's aware the timer is still ticking ;)
Good news all round then.
Nice work Loki.
Will await a more detailed response from Kirk as you have me all excited with your secrets and mysteries!
Thanks LOKI.
Admittedly it's not the worlds best news, but it does clear up some misunderstandings about Neocron, which is a good step.
Looking forward to reading Kirk's reply next week.
For those just joining us I've added relevant links to the original post.
Quality stuff!
IP explanation really makes sense now, hope that Gamingo dont abuse nor underestimate the talent they have at Reakktor.
Had the pleasure of chatting with Rift devs myself through work and they were also really decent types, must be a dev thing lol.
Great info bud, look forward to hearing from Kirk.
Firstly, great that he contacted someone like that, and good to at least get some involvement. Hopefully he'll feel up to including the rest of us at some point, but at least there's progress :D
as to the "free time", anything a company does to develop its own titles is "free time", so calling it free time is weird, because it's not like it's done for non-profit, it's done so subscriptions can be restarted and they can earn money from their own IP again. (that said, I'm sure that atm it's more profitable to work on BP since that's where the money is coming from, so in a sense it's "free-time", as it's an investment in the future, instead of immediate cash return, unless KK really doesn't pay their programmers for developing their own games :p) It might however be a simple case of miss communication calling it free time ;)
as a question though, did he answer why they completely ignored us for 2 years and the communication is so utterly abysmal? A simple post takes 5 minutes, a well-written post with future repercussions takes an hour. Either of those would have relieved so much grief.
Kirk Lenke
02-09-11, 17:01
on a short notice: in their private time
...
as to the "free time", anything a company does to develop its own titles is "free time", so calling it free time is weird, because it's not like it's done for non-profit, it's done so subscriptions can be restarted and they can earn money from their own IP again. (that said, I'm sure that atm it's more profitable to work on BP since that's where the money is coming from, so in a sense it's "free-time", as it's an investment in the future, instead of immediate cash return, unless KK really doesn't pay their programmers for developing their own games :p) It might however be a simple case of miss communication calling it free time ;)
Short notice: no I haven't but as you can see, I am following threads. Ignoring would mean that do not give a dime about anything being said etc.
We simply had and have a s***load of work to do
as a question though, did he answer why they completely ignored us for 2 years and the communication is so utterly abysmal? A simple post takes 5 minutes, a well-written post with future repercussions takes an hour. Either of those would have relieved so much grief.
Firstly, great that he contacted someone like that, and good to at least get some involvement. Hopefully he'll feel up to including the rest of us at some point, but at least there's progress :D
as to the "free time", anything a company does to develop its own titles is "free time", so calling it free time is weird, because it's not like it's done for non-profit, it's done so subscriptions can be restarted and they can earn money from their own IP again. (that said, I'm sure that atm it's more profitable to work on BP since that's where the money is coming from, so in a sense it's "free-time", as it's an investment in the future, instead of immediate cash return, unless KK really doesn't pay their programmers for developing their own games :p) It might however be a simple case of miss communication calling it free time ;)
as a question though, did he answer why they completely ignored us for 2 years and the communication is so utterly abysmal? A simple post takes 5 minutes, a well-written post with future repercussions takes an hour. Either of those would have relieved so much grief.
By free time, as Kirk just said himself, I mean personal time - ie, after office hours.
lol okay, wow, I jumped to conclusions too soon again. I apologize to the developers. That said, why doesn't reakktor work on it on reakktors time then? surely gamigo isn't the boss on everything reakktor can or cannot do? does gamigo pay the developers directly for working on BP, or reakktor?
For all my criticism on the work on neocron itself I hereby apologize to the developers, I assumed that KK would pay the developers for working on neocron.
It could also explain the lack of communication (though I still think it would have stopped a lot of grief if this kind of information had simply been given out years ago, simply a quick post explaining the situation).
lol okay, wow, I jumped to conclusions too soon again. I apologize to the developers. That said, why doesn't reakktor work on it on reakktors time then? surely gamigo isn't the boss on everything reakktor can or cannot do? does gamigo pay the developers directly for working on BP, or reakktor?
This may help http://www.techhaven.org/neocron/news/gamigo-buys-a-stake-in-reakktor.html
Read and think about it. The read it again, and think about it again.
1) BP is the main source of income for Reakktor.
2) Gamigo owns part of KK, so they do have a bit of say on how KK is run.
3) KK do have to pay the devs. It's much respected that the devs have given their free time to do some work on Neocron, but the devs still need to pay their own bills!
4) I think it's safe to say, that if KK didn't focus on BP, there would be no Neocron.
I read that when it was posted, I've remembered it now, and I know what it means concerning BP, it doesn't concern any of my questions though (neither do your points, tho I agree with them).
What i meant with "does gamigo pay the devs or gamigo", is whether KK lends all its developers to gamigo on a project basis, or if gamigo pays KK for work on BP. In the last case I just don't get why part of KK's capital isn't used to actually pay the developers to work on neocron. If gamigo wants KK only to work on BP, why not just buy the whole company?
Note, it might sound too negative or critical, at the moment I'm just trying to get more information on which to base any opinions I might form. By "I don't get why" I literally mean I don't get it, and would like to know about it.
All in all, I think it's save to say my respect to KK for their efforts on NC. At least by now the community got aware that you didn't forget your own game.
The problem at hand seemed to be similar as that in Black Prophecy: Communication. When you let us know some news from time to time, people won't feel frustrated and left alone :)
Biglines,
Gamigo (would) pay KK, KK pay thier employees an hourly rate.
Since all the money comes from Gamigo at the moment and it is being paid for work on BP, they (should) not be able to "split" funds and pay employees for working on NC.
As far as gamigo are concerned if they are paying money and it is not going towards the development of BP, then why are they paying ? (also it would be breaking contracts (?) ).
I dont know if you will understand that, but the situation seems pretty clear to me, i hope i have explained it well enough.
Reakktor is hiring (devs and artists). I have no idea how long ago this appeared on their website, but it is kinda funny coincidence that I only noticed this about same time Mr. Lenke magically re-appeared in the Neocron forums/this thread.
Coincidence or just more staff for BP...?
CoreInsanity
03-09-11, 03:16
I am glad to see there was a reply of some kind to this. Interesting to know the developers were working in their free time when they made the patch. Thanks to the developers who did this :) Given that you weren't being paid that makes it completely different in my eyes.
Also didn't know you couldn't have the devs work on NC during work hours. That would explain some things.
Glad to see KK are still interested in NC, thanks for the reply.
Biglines,
Gamigo (would) pay KK, KK pay thier employees an hourly rate.
Since all the money comes from Gamigo at the moment and it is being paid for work on BP, they (should) not be able to "split" funds and pay employees for working on NC.
As far as gamigo are concerned if they are paying money and it is not going towards the development of BP, then why are they paying ? (also it would be breaking contracts (?) ).
I dont know if you will understand that, but the situation seems pretty clear to me, i hope i have explained it well enough.
hehe, the point is, just like me, you're just guessing. a company that gets paid for a service, is paid as a company for that service, the company itself has to decide how much manpower to put on providing that service. Of course it is possible that KK simply needs all their developers for providing that service, but it sure isn't normal business policy to work exclusively for one company (here in the Netherlands, a freelancer isn't even allowed to work exclusively for one company, you have to have at least 3 customers in order to call yourself a business (else you're just a part of that one company)).
If gamigo only pays KK enough to keep their developers paid, KK has a bad deal (of course it could be that because of the money troubles they had to accept such a deal, but it's still a bad deal if it doesn't provide KK with enough capital to exist beyond BP).
but to explain, I am certainly not bashing the developers (the people paid by KK), hell, they're angels if they actually work on a company's property in their own time just for helping us with our gaming experience. I just don't get how in a business, employees do not get paid for developing the business' property. This has nothing to do with time, but with choosing how money is spent (time is created by hiring more people).
Of course I could be all wrong in every single one of my assumptions, which is why I am addressing this to the only person that actually knows what's going on, which is Kirk Lenke. Noone else on this forum (except maybe other KK employees), knows what is going on at KK, so I am not addressing this post to anyone except KK. Of course anyone else can post their opinion like I'm doing, but only KK can actually answer it.
I am heartened to read that the developers put their free-time into the patch. I am not surprised that they had to. I wholeheartedly appreciate this.
Please pass on my regards to the developers.
(here in the Netherlands, a freelancer isn't even allowed to work exclusively for one company, you have to have at least 3 customers in order to call yourself a business (else you're just a part of that one company)). .
In which case I know many IT freelancers in The Netherlands who run afoul of that rule.
Additionally, this may be the case in NL, but it is certainly not the case elsewhere.
I am heartened to read that the developers put their free-time into the patch. I am not surprised that they had to. I wholeheartedly appreciate this.
Please pass on my regards to the developers.
Agreed. It shocked me too.
Here's an idea...sell 48% of Neocron rights to gamigo also, and let it go f2p. Then I'll have plenty of people to group with and kill when they piss me off.
Neocron.org would be all for becoming a central development site for Neocron and accepting code changes by the community for review to be included in a main server.
I have the resources to host an American Neocron server, be it NC1 or 2.2, I also have the manpower to staff the server with GMs, respond quickly to in game support tickets, and resolve any issues server side should one happen to go down.
We are just waiting for an okay and a server base to work with *thumbs up*
God damnit, you're still here too?
Neocron.org would be all for becoming a central development site for Neocron and accepting code changes by the community for review to be included in a main server.
I have the resources to host an American Neocron server, be it NC1 or 2.2, I also have the manpower to staff the server with GMs, respond quickly to in game support tickets, and resolve any issues server side should one happen to go down.
We are just waiting for an okay and a server base to work with *thumbs up*
Mr.Trip - What do you think the server resources are required for this? Please include dB and login server requirements. I have no idea.
what makes me angry after read this is that, KK could have told us years ago instead gone mute. I feel sorry for KK being overworked (though good for them they get paid) and disregard NC. I wonder how KK came to be the BP dev was that a 10tacle move? KK original idea then sold the IP to gamigo?if it was money that you need you could have made a new paycheck system for customers, like not using paypal... and having credit card input somewhere which is common in any selling system.
God damnit, you're still here too?
Never leaving ;)
Powerpunsh
04-09-11, 18:35
Im glad that some developers still work in their private time on neocron. Fixing the cheatprotection could fix the netcode abit. That would be a huge step and bringing back alot more fun ingame.
@ Kirk: As i can see you read through the thread. We had a little DB error on terra some months ago (click me (http://forum.neocron.com/showthread.php?t=144697)) which caused damage at some players appartments. Chenoa told us that you are on it and after 1 or 2 weeks like 2% of the missing furnitures came back. But thats all so far. Iam not the only one who has literally lost all his important stuff. I would be appreciate about an information about this issue. :)
Fixing the cheatprotection could fix the netcode abit.
Actually, that would probably make it worse. Part of the reason the netcode is so much worse than it used to be is because of all the crap they had to add to help stave off cheats.
Powerpunsh
05-09-11, 17:36
Actually, that would probably make it worse. Part of the reason the netcode is so much worse than it used to be is because of all the crap they had to add to help stave off cheats.
Its not a part its the central issue. So if they do a rework on their cheatprotection neocron would make a huge step back to its top again. In my opinion its not a matter of content but rather a matter of its playability which causes the leak of population.
So lets see how things going and hope the best for neocron. :angel:
CoreInsanity
06-09-11, 01:11
Actually, that would probably make it worse. Part of the reason the netcode is so much worse than it used to be is because of all the crap they had to add to help stave off cheats.
Honestly the code is horrible. It has been modified a lot when it probably wasn't designed to be (as I said earlier in the thread a bunch).
So really, the cheat protection probably broke stuff because of that. I honestly think much of anything they do to the code has a good chance of breaking something, Kirk said it himself in that phone call that the code is a nightmare to work with.
Honestly the code is horrible. It has been modified a lot when it probably wasn't designed to be (as I said earlier in the thread a bunch).
So really, the cheat protection probably broke stuff because of that. I honestly think much of anything they do to the code has a good chance of breaking something, Kirk said it himself in that phone call that the code is a nightmare to work with.
where do you get anything about cheat protection? There has never been any cheat protection in neocron except the filecheck from what I hear from some of the more knowledgeable people, not even rudimentary network security any flash game offers (yes that's exaggerated for those that didn't notice)
CoreInsanity
06-09-11, 02:11
where do you get anything about cheat protection? There has never been any cheat protection in neocron except the filecheck from what I hear from some of the more knowledgeable people, not even rudimentary network security any flash game offers (yes that's exaggerated for those that didn't notice)
I agree, and from what I have seen there isn't. There is a little bit more than the file check I know that, but not a whole lot.
They were talking about cheat protection breaking netcode, so I was mostly making a point that adding cheat protection more than likely isn't what ultimately broke the code (If they added it at all). It's just the fact that the code is a nightmare, which means pretty much anything you do to it is going to be complicated and have a high potential to break other stuff.
If they have any cheat protection it sucks. The file check we know they have is weak.
Honestly the code is horrible. It has been modified a lot when it probably wasn't designed to be (as I said earlier in the thread a bunch).
So really, the cheat protection probably broke stuff because of that. I honestly think much of anything they do to the code has a good chance of breaking something, Kirk said it himself in that phone call that the code is a nightmare to work with.
You said many times before that the code is horrible (Before Kirk said anything). So are you a dev of some sort, and have you seen the source code?
Also it was said that the devs work on it in their own time, and are paid only yo work on BP. They probably know how to fix the problems with the last patches, but they are not in a position to as BP has to come first.
CoreInsanity
06-09-11, 20:13
You said many times before that the code is horrible (Before Kirk said anything). So are you a dev of some sort, and have you seen the source code?
lol, no I'm not a dev (not at KK, anyway) nor have I seen the source code. I do web design, specifically PHP backends and know a lot of people who do application development in C / C++. I have messed with the two as well, to some degree. Though, due to being busy I haven't had much time to do more than studying a few things and asking the people I know questions.
The signs are there, though. I have seen them many times in other applications (Granted on a smaller scale than Neocron). Especially in some medium sized web applications I have seen (Still smaller than Neocron, though). People designed it with one goal in mind, to make it work exactly how they thought it out at the start and then left no room for expansion.
I have been playing since beta 4 NC classic, and remember the game slowly getting slightly worse stability wise every time they did a patch that added or changed much of anything aside from small balance stuff here and there.
Given how much they have expanded the game since then to make NC2 as we have now, it makes sense that the architecture wasn't designed properly for this sort of thing. I honestly wonder some times if this game was initially made to be an FPS game and then changed to be an MMO (Back in the very early development of it).
On top of that, they changed development teams afaik. If I recall, I don't think any of the original NC developers are still working with them, are they? So that would further make it a nightmare to work with, if that's the case. Who knows how well it was documented.
Also it was said that the devs work on it in their own time, and are paid only yo work on BP. They probably know how to fix the problems with the last patches, but they are not in a position to as BP has to come first.
Oh yeah, don't get me wrong (If you were at all). I think the fact that the devs worked on this in their spare time is really cool. Makes me think a lot more of them than I used to, it's a good thing they did and shows some dedicated to Neocron IMO.
I don't know how well they can fix the problems that plague NC. It's possible to fix them, but how much work will be needed to do so is really too hard for anyone but the devs to tell.
For all we know (Unless they specified such) they were working on that patch for a while in their spare time.
I can't say with 100% accuracy that the code is designed like that, or that it's horrible. I don't know if it's:
1) Simply lack of time.
2) Lack of documentation.
3) Badly planned out development (Initially).
4) New developers that don't know the code.
5) A combination of all 4.
6) Something else entirely.
I am only stating conclusions I have reached logically over the course of observing the games development for years. As I said, I know most of the hacks (and before I quit a while ago due to lack of time IRL, was in the process of writing a report on them to send to KK. Though, I have a feeling KK has reports on most of them but it can't hurt to send them in anyway). The fact that a lot of these hacks work the way they do has helped lead me to these conclusions. However I would be happy to give KK a full report on pretty much everything I know (as I said), I just have to have the time to write it.
You said many times before that the code is horrible (Before Kirk said anything). So are you a dev of some sort, and have you seen the source code?
Also it was said that the devs work on it in their own time, and are paid only yo work on BP. They probably know how to fix the problems with the last patches, but they are not in a position to as BP has to come first.
well I did have a long discussion with a gm a few years back, who was also a dev, who explained pretty clearly that the code is worse than you can imagine, he spent more time just trying to sort through it than actually getting things done. He also explained that the two engines were not well-integrated, which is one of the main causes for fatals and the huge amount of memory leaks still present in neocron. These things are simple facts, the neocron source code is an incredible mess. I'm not sure if this was also posted on the forums, so I can't link to a post, but it was in a long discussion when I was trying to get some dev support for getting lists of items sold at vendors, and for some events (before the insolvency).
new engine is required to save NC clean code is a must have. now i don't know what i could do to support KK if they decide to have a team dedicated to NC. it saddens me to see my fav game in such poor state.
new engine is required to save NC clean code is a must have. now i don't know what i could do to support KK if they decide to have a team dedicated to NC. it saddens me to see my fav game in such poor state.
There are also smaller bugs that maybe could be fixed as a start:
- Weight bug when doing res missions
- Reload bug of the weapon when it won't reload at all
- Casting bug of the ppu when switching the module and it wont work the first time
I did also not know that they "married" two engines. That's really a technological masterpiece, but the code must be very difficult.
However, if kk would think about having devs of the community work for nc maybe things would move along better.
Next point:
- The incredible & invisible damage the Grim Persecutor does sometimes
My ppu died an instant death just passing one by, fully buffed. Even my tank cant stand it. But the tank can withstand a Grim Chaser, at least to some degree.
Next point:
- The incredible & invisible damage the Grim Persecutor does sometimes
My ppu died an instant death just passing one by, fully buffed. Even my tank cant stand it. But the tank can withstand a Grim Chaser, at least to some degree.
Ahh yeah, the AoE force damage I think it deals. It is insane, nearly lost a couple of Rhino's by driving too close....and don't get me started on the fluffy dice that one percy decided to set on fire! :lol:
Ahhh yes, I don't think it's AoE so much as DoT bugs.
Ever since 2.2, every mob that does Damage over Time has been overpowered, often ludicrously so. I think this is just because someone at KK got their wires crossed with how the numbers work. As in: The field is meant to be "damage per tick" but someone put in the damage to be done over the entire stack duration.
CoreInsanity
07-09-11, 18:27
Ahhh yes, I don't think it's AoE so much as DoT bugs.
Ever since 2.2, every mob that does Damage over Time has been overpowered, often ludicrously so. I think this is just because someone at KK got their wires crossed with how the numbers work. As in: The field is meant to be "damage for entire stack" and is being dealt per tick.
Yeah, if they decide to go ahead with fixing bugs in NC they should address some PVE balance issues. Yes, this is a PVP game blah blah blah. Yes, I know. But it still has PVE aspects that need to be balanced in some degree. The best method for leveling a spy should not be droner. IMO they should try to make them equal so we can do what we want. Give us more of an incentive to kill warbots/firemobs/stuff in the wastelands in general and less regants boss room/ceres labs grinding.
I would like to actually level characters without the pile of boring that is doing those places a ton of times.
But really balance issues of any kind are probably getting ahead of ourselves at this point.
Yeah, if they decide to go ahead with fixing bugs in NC they should address some PVE balance issues. Yes, this is a PVP game blah blah blah. Yes, I know. But it still has PVE aspects that need to be balanced in some degree.[...]
There are really people who love to hunt and do trader stuff.
But you are right again, without the resources at KK nothing will happen anyway.
Kirk Lenke
07-09-11, 23:17
Hi all,
I know I have promised you some answers this week but unfortunatly this will not happen due to family issues and lack of time.
So please do not be too upset, I hope I can do it latest next week.
Due to the fact that this thread is getting longer and longer is there a possibility that someone can sum up all things so that my life is a tad easier?
If not, I will go through it step by step... but this will take longer - for sure.
Hope you all are doing good, take care,
Kirk
Hi all,
I know I have promised you some answers this week but unfortunatly this will not happen due to family issues and lack of time.
So please do not be too upset, I hope I can do it latest next week.
Due to the fact that this thread is getting longer and longer is there a possibility that someone can sum up all things so that my life is a tad easier?
If not, I will go through it step by step... but this will take longer - for sure.
Hope you all are doing good, take care,
Kirk
^ THIS ^
this message is what I (and afaik, we) want, a few posts explaining a situation, asking for understanding, but giving a reasonable and realistic timeframe, just something like this every few weeks/months, just so we're up to date, and don't feel left out. (aside from an anti-cheat patch and other promised things of course :p )
As to your question, if no one gets around to it I'll start on it tomorrow
CoreInsanity
08-09-11, 02:19
There are really people who love to hunt and do trader stuff.
But you are right again, without the resources at KK nothing will happen anyway.
I love to do trade skill / hunting stuff. I mostly help a friend of mine gather resources and stuff. However, I am mostly talking leveling here. It's just do blasted slow in the wastelands compared to ceres lab or regants boss room :/
One of the things I loved about this game is that it wasn't really a grind-fest, which is unique now in an MMO. Most of them appear to just follow the path of "Do this to feel like you accomplished something". I fail to see why you get an achievement in WoW for hitting level 10, 20, 30, etc.
But yeah, first things first as was said.
Also: Love PVP too. Used to do it a lot back in NC1, anyway.
Hi all,
I know I have promised you some answers this week but unfortunatly this will not happen due to family issues and lack of time.
So please do not be too upset, I hope I can do it latest next week.
Due to the fact that this thread is getting longer and longer is there a possibility that someone can sum up all things so that my life is a tad easier?
If not, I will go through it step by step... but this will take longer - for sure.
Hope you all are doing good, take care,
Kirk
Thanks for the update, I hope everything goes ok with your family :)
I don't want to speak for other people, or quote what I think is important. However, I will state my main points of my post:
(Keeping in mind most of this is just logical conclusions I have drawn from observing)
1) It's going to take more than bug fixes to make Neocron a viable source of income. It needs marketing and constant development.
2) The code is really hard to work with, probably wasn't made to be flexible. Lack of flexibility + the two engine thing might go a decent way to explaining why it's been getting so buggy and why there are so many exploits.
3) Given #2, the best bet for Neocron is to (Eventually, not *right now*) be remade.
4) This goes along with marketing. I mostly made a connection between selling the game (Advertising) and graphics. I love NC, the graphics don't bother me. But my main point was at a glance graphics grab the attention of a customer, thus helping to pull them in and get them hooked.
My main 3 questions are:
1) How is BP doing? Is it bringing in profit?
2) How is KK doing now financially? Are you stable?
3) What are your plans for NC3, or NC2. What are we waiting on for development and what (if anything) are you actively doing development wise on NC2/3?
I had 4 and 5 but they were related to open sourcing NC, and since you have contracts making that impossible there is no real point in including them.
And one last I would like to add:
4) What is your plan as far as cheaters go? Specifically:
Will the exploit specific bugs be fixed before taking any action?
Will the fact that the community is really small be taken into account?
Will there be a wipe to counter the fact that a lot of trading is restrictive due to how much cheating has gone on? For instance, CR is next to useless. I remember CR used to be a viable way to buy stuff from players, as was trading. I still remember building up the money for my first CS on my tank a long time ago. Personally, I'm in full support of a wipe after you fix stuff up. It would be nice to have something fresh, not a few people controlling most of the techs, plus the other stuff I have mentioned.
One important point is the payment option. You know that people from the US have serious trouble with C2P. So potential new players can't subscribe. Are you going to fix that in a way that more options are offered? Credit card is the way to go.
Also will there be active fees again for vets? I pay happily and without hesitation 5 Euros a month for a lively NC. Regardless of what other people say bout graphics and so on, the game is still superior to **** as Fallen Earth, Earthrise and whatever else.
Doc Holliday
08-09-11, 06:35
I honestly think i can sum it up quite easily.
Havent realised this thread garnered so much attention till i just trawled through.
If pve can be fixed your gonna make the game a lot more fun for people as it provides an alternative to pvp. if you can fix the cheat issues its gonna be a lot more fun for people who like to pvp (me included)
i would also like to propose starting an OFFICIAL thread on who would be realistically willing to pay again so you can see what sort of revenue you can generate from this game. it might not be much but its better than nothing im sure. delete any posts that say anything other than yes or no. or even start a poll. with no droms. :)
Doc Holliday
08-09-11, 09:50
sorry for the double post.
i think the 4 key points for this thread really are as follows:
1. Fix the cheating issues. Number 1 priority. (clipping also but cheating for definite!)
2. Fix Pve and make the game more playable for this aspect. open up more of the underused areas.
3. Fix payment options and make it pay to play again (i think this would help get rid of some of the cheaters plus bring in money again)
4. What can WE as the community do to help?
if anyone disagrees with point 4 please close your browser as you really shouldnt be on this forum ;)
otherwise i really see all 3 points above helping to bring an increase to the population and hopefully show the powers that be (ie gamigo) that this is not a lost project and that it has potential.
1. Fix the cheating issues. Number 1 priority. (clipping also but cheating for definite!)
2. Fix Pve and make the game more playable for this aspect. open up more of the underused areas.
3. Fix payment options and make it pay to play again (i think this would help get rid of some of the cheaters plus bring in money again)
4. What can WE as the community do to help?
Perfect summary, Doc. These are the main points.
I'd just like to add to Nr. 4 that there would be the possibility to add community members to work on nc by having them sign contracts (e.g. NDA). This way the intellectual property is not harmed.
I will try to summarize and group the questions I can glean from the posts, each as specific as possible to minimize the chance it will be overlooked. The numbers with an asterix behind the number, are questions that I personally have after reading through the thread again, which did not seem to have been asked yet. If someone wants to rewrite the post into something more flowery and optimistic, go ahead.
Anti-cheat patch
A year ago, chenoa said that the developers knew what went wrong with the patch, and how to fix it. There were a few posts explaining that you were actively working on it.
1) If the developers are working on it (even in their free time), why is it taking so long?
2) How far along are you, have you fixed the problems and are just waiting for a time to patch, or are you still stumped as to why the patch didn't work last time?
3*) How many people are working on it in their free time?
3.1*) Does KK lend all its developers to gamigo on a project basis, or does gamigo pay KK for work on BP. In the last case I just don't get why part of KK's capital isn't used to actually pay the developers to work on neocron. If gamigo wants KK only to work on BP, why not just buy the whole company?
4*) Why can't these people be compensated in either overtime or subcontracting?
4.1*) If these developers are really working on neocron, is there some way for us to donate to them personally or to buy them a beer?
Payment and accounts
About 3 years ago now, 10tacle went insolvent, causing paypal subscriptions to stop functioning, to which you said that payment would be reinstated very soon.
5) Why can't there be another payment provider reinstated now that KK is no longer insolvent, so that click2pay isn't the only one still working?
6) What do you plan on changing in neocron before the monthly fee will start again? (As obviously hardly anyone will pay for the game in it current state, both support and content wise)
Communication
Communication with the community at least in the last 5 years has been abysmal, almost no messages were written concerning what was happening, the moderators on the forum were either not informed or were not allowed to comment, and most of the messages that came were mostly filled with promises that were almost never kept, or were made by moderators/employees who had to spend their own time helping/informing us. Having no time is not really an excuse when it takes over a year to communicate. Not being able to write something for a week or two is possible due to some deadline looming, but during an entire year, it is impossible for there to have been no time for a message that in the worst case scenario takes an hour or two to research and write.
7) What are your plans on improving communication with the community?
8) Can you in the future, when it appears you will not be able to keep the promises you made, at least let us know as soon as possible that you won't be able to make it?
You don't even have to say why if that's something private to the company, but at least let us know that you won't be keeping your promises, instead of just waiting years and then doing something drastic. Three years ago you promised us an anti-cheat patch in 3 months, after a year of no communication, suddenly you patched the game without prior notice, and without much communication that patch was then rolled back because it simply didn't work.
We understand if you are having troubles financially that you can't keep your promises, but at least let us know immediately when you realize this will happen.
Development
9) How many of the original neocron developers are still around?
10) What is the state of the code for neocron, can you give us a few details about how neocron is built up?
10.1) Can you tell us if it is at all possible for you to fix the huge amount of memory leaks and conflicts between the gfx engines?
Some community members expresses their wishes for neocron to be made open source, or to hire/include some community members as sources for development, content and artwork.
11) Could you explain why the game won't be made open source?
12) Could you explain why you don't use the huge potential of some of the community members to work on neocron? We have some very talented developers here.
Future content
13) Are you planning any content patches for nc2?
14*) You said you were working on nc3, but obviously since the developers work on nc2 in their free time, this simply wasn't true. Is there actual work being done on nc3, or was it only a deflection?
Alternative revenue models
15) What kind of revenue models are you considering? for example freemium, cash shop, monthly subscription, ad-based etc?
16) Will you make the game open source if you have no longer wish to run it yourself?
Some more questions that could be directly taken from posts by community members that did either not fit, or are more fitting than the ones above (or because I am simply too lazy to paraphrase them further :p )
My main 3 questions are:
1) How is BP doing? Is it bringing in profit?
2) How is KK doing now financially? Are you stable?
3) What are your plans for NC3, or NC2. What are we waiting on for development and what (if anything) are you actively doing development wise on NC2/3?
I had 4 and 5 but they were related to open sourcing NC, and since you have contracts making that impossible there is no real point in including them.
And one last I would like to add:
4) What is your plan as far as cheaters go? Specifically:
- Will the exploit specific bugs be fixed before taking any action?
- Will the fact that the community is really small be taken into account?
- Will there be a wipe to counter the fact that a lot of trading is restrictive due to how much cheating has gone on? For instance, CR is next to useless. I remember CR used to be a viable way to buy stuff from players, as was trading. I still remember building up the money for my first CS on my tank a long time ago. Personally, I'm in full support of a wipe after you fix stuff up. It would be nice to have something fresh, not a few people controlling most of the techs, plus the other stuff I have mentioned.
Some things which i am curious about:
1) why not having a vote: would you pay for a NC1 or NC2 server?
i know several people which, because of the netcode problems, would really like to see nc1 again, i know this has been discussed quite often on the forums, but i would like to know, why you are not considering this option instead of getting a patch out, wouldn't that be less work?
2) how can we help? What can we do so you are able to fix the current problems with the NC2 netcode? i thought about maybe some donations, which would be managed by a third party or someone the community and you are trusting
3) why is the interpolation, which worked in nc1 not working anymore since i think nc2.2, in nc1 the z coordinate was calculated correctly, but since nc 2.2 it isn't anymore
@Kirk: just a small advice if you want really to have a linux client as you wished in this post of yours http://forum.neocron.com/showpost.php?p=2170514&postcount=17 get one programmer to code on a linux environment from day one instead of making the whole game on windows platform then port it to linux/mac. it reduces a lot of costs...
1. When is the next Neocron 2 patch planned to be released?
2. What's the long term plans for Neocron 2?
3. What is Reakktor's view on the current state of communication to the community, and what plans do they have to change it? (If any).
4. What is Reakktor's view on the current state of in-game and out-of-game support, and what plans do they have to change it? (If any).
Can they actually market the game good enough in it's current (Fixed) state to bring in enough people to make money off it?
Can they fix the game enough to expand on it without breaking it?
Can the game in it's current (Fixed) state even handle an increased number of players (hundreds).
*What exactly will it take to fix the current state of Neocron?
How much will it cost them to fix NC compared to how much it will cost for them to make an NC3.
A really important one:
@ Kirk: As i can see you read through the thread. We had a little DB error on terra some months ago (click me (http://forum.neocron.com/showthread.php?t=144697)) which caused damage at some players appartments. Chenoa told us that you are on it and after 1 or 2 weeks like 2% of the missing furnitures came back. But thats all so far. Iam not the only one who has literally lost all his important stuff. I would be appreciate about an information about this issue. :)
Also from the thread, it seems that though most people agree that cheating is one of the biggest problems, in order to get more players, there are a number of things that need to be fixed as well (in no particular order):
- Cheating/exploits, fixed, not just barred with GM spawned fences
- PVE, the only way to reasonably level these days is the most boring route, make mobs possible to solo and fix the DoT damage
- Fatal runtime errors and synching, fix the memory leaks, a game over 10 years old should not still be suffering from elemental programming errors.
For me personally, the first 2 are required to even make me consider paying for the game again, but that's possibly just me.
But the most important question of all:
Would you like a cookie? ;)
Nice post biggi ;)
i hope we get some answers now???
This should be the easiest way for Kirk to answer "all" questions!
I will try to summarize and group the questions I can glean from the posts, each as specific as possible to minimize the chance it will be overlooked.[...]
Kudos to you, sir. Good work.
CoreInsanity
08-09-11, 17:47
Thanks for the very nice summary, Biglines :)
Kirk Lenke
08-09-11, 19:18
I will try to summarize and group the questions I can glean from the posts, each as specific as possible to minimize the chance it will be overlooked. The numbers with an asterix behind the number, are questions that I personally have after reading through the thread again, which did not seem to have been asked yet. If someone wants to rewrite the post into something more flowery and optimistic, go ahead.
WOW! Thanks a lot! That was fast!
Really appreciated
Cheers
Kirk
WOW! Thanks a lot! That was fast!
Really appreciated
Cheers
Kirk
:D Yay! Go Kirk! Hope your family is doing better!
Some reading for all of you anxious to hear something back from Kirk...he mentioned this in 2009..
Before we get started, how is Neocron?
Neocron 1 has been canceled some time ago. Neocron 2 is still online and is becoming more and more popular and often old player come back to play a bit Neocron. For many player Neocron is the 'first love'. We see this the same way. Out heart is still in Neocron.
Sometimes we come across negative comments in the web, amongst other things that we have “patched Neocron down”. This might be right or wrong, but it shows us that Neocron is well known. Against the speculation that the project was a flop, it has brought in its budget 4 times. Of course there were mistakes in the development, but it was a new area for us at this time.
And this was noted at the end
How will Reakktor continue? What will be after the release? Are there any new and secret projects?
At this moment the team is completely focused on the development of Black Prophecy. We cant tell you a release date, because this has to be done in close cooperation with our future publisher. After the release the development of Black Prophecy will continue. This is the nature of an MMO. The work will continue with addons and patches.
Of course we are evaluating future projects and are looking out for possible partners to realize them. One of them could be a new MMO based on our classic Neocron. We will see.
Hi Kirk,
there are some of the old team of voluntary helpers (which did , and presumably still do, a big job and spending literally hundreds of hours to improve the game in many ways. Getting as only -positive- reward a lifetime account and their names on the nc box). Still only a handfull really did coding the missions or coding game code.
I think many would come back and help, but only if some things change.
From my experience then, 2 of 3 main problems which led to me and others leaving:
Ideas and even fully written updates or completed models were not implemented due to lack of time and lack of commitment! Beeing creative and doing more than the the given work was not rewarded, even punished.
Giving higher rights to decide internal game logic and coding freedom to a bigger part of the voluntary members of the team was not an option, even after signing the NDA.
- not to be discussed -
so even now i still would try to help again and i don't expect you to answer the nice summarized questions the community asked you. In fact i don't expect to get an answer or comment to this post either... but maybe something changed so i try.
The only questions for you (answer them to you, if you get them right everybody will soon notice a change -or a working update :D -) to get this game going further are:
Do you have the staff resources to get and pay a good, experienced and committed team of 1 coder, 1 gfx man and 1 dev team organizer ?
There must be somebody at KK doing this, since organizing the work properly is important when working with a community. If no - another option is to make it open source or at least put it for sale.
Do you change your rules to allow voluntary devs getting documentations and coding game code ?
There are certain levels here but the now important stuff is not upgrading the engine or net code (that would be better done in nc3) i mean:
coding game logic, building zones and models, coding the xls and lua for the missions (aka content) etc.
Sincerely,
Harald "Ferron" Quint (the real me)
aka
Asleifson
aka
Henry Dorsett, ex NX FC, NC Governor
aka
Ferron, ex ECC, EGM
Chuck Norris
09-09-11, 07:42
I believe the massive dot damage was the "fix" against drones being to powerful, they also massively lowered drone resists and how much exp is gained per shot. Ages ago
Also as far as fences go they dont seem to stop determined players.
so even now i still would try to help again and i don't expect you to answer the nice summarized questions the community asked you. In fact i don't expect to get an answer or comment to this post either... but maybe something changed so i try.
Hello Asleifson,
we really hope that kk has learned their lesson by now and that you will get the proper answer that you deserve.
In my opinion your posting sounds very professional and this is a serious matter.
I hope kk does it right this time.
Thank you for all your efforts.
Regards
Ivan
I often find myself thinking "oh wait, Neocron had that already" when wanting functionality and features in an sci-fi MMO.
We talked about this in TGM and if they would fix the exploits, possibly some of the biggest gripes and the game got a couple of hundred active players you would probably see us in game again.
There is simply nothing else. Earthrise is screwed up, which currently is the sole possible substitute.
Wow, it's been ten years since I first registered on these forums to discuss this new exciting game called Neocron.
There is still no other game that can match it, I have tried to find one but they can just not replicate it.
I still hold out hope that one day I will get an e-mail about Neocron returning to popularity of even that an NC3 or "new version same concept" game arises. Because, despite what anyone says, Neocron has the best damn concept and the best damn potential of any game.
Good luck Kirk, I hope you can achieve this, if you do, drop me a message and I will join the queue to come back. Perhaps after BP you can start all over again with Neocron and make it what it should of been first time round.
Wow, it's been ten years since I first registered on these forums to discuss this new exciting game called Neocron.
There is still no other game that can match it, I have tried to find one but they can just not replicate it.
I still hold out hope that one day I will get an e-mail about Neocron returning to popularity of even that an NC3 or "new version same concept" game arises. Because, despite what anyone says, Neocron has the best damn concept and the best damn potential of any game.
Good luck Kirk, I hope you can achieve this, if you do, drop me a message and I will join the queue to come back. Perhaps after BP you can start all over again with Neocron and make it what it should of been first time round.
http://forum.neocron.com/showpost.php?p=2170493&postcount=11
http://www.techhaven.org/cache/docman-thn-image-153.png (http://www.techhaven.org/index2.php?option=com_docman&task=doc_view&gid=153&Itemid=132)
[ edited ]. Bring back the neocron 1 models any day of the fuckin' WEEK. I miss my midnight blue gentleman's suit. [ edited ]
http://i.imgur.com/6z30E.jpg
vs
http://wiki.techhaven.org/images/thumb/c/cb/Spy.jpg/250px-Spy.jpg
[ edited ] RUINED the atmosphere.
CoreInsanity
13-09-11, 04:23
[ edited ]Bring back the neocron 1 models any day of the fuckin' WEEK. I miss my midnight blue gentleman's suit. [ edited ].
vs
[ edited ] RUINED the atmosphere.
What a useful post...
The models are the least of Neocron's problems right now, but I doubt they would revert them back. Who's going to pay for models and then not use them?
I just hope that NC3 models will be based on NC1 models, not NC2 models.
CoreInsanity
13-09-11, 04:53
I just hope that NC3 models will be based on NC1 models, not NC2 models.
I agree, the NC2 models don't seem to fit nearly as good.
I agree, the NC2 models don't seem to fit nearly as good.
I just want my pink shirt tank back... :(
MrTrip you old ass oldbie.
Doc Holliday
13-09-11, 10:22
I just want my pink shirt tank back... :(
i would love my green jacket and flame pants back. got the pants. would love the red hair too ;) (1 out of 3 aint that bad)
pink shirt tank for the win. model has a good point. i know a few of us on here would love old models too. i know i loved them more than the new ones. they had character. they look cyberpunk. especially the tanks although i do like the new tank models and the monk ones. just not the spy/pe.
Powerpunsh
13-09-11, 15:02
Everyone here would think different about the models if kk had'nt removed the accessoires.
[ edited ] Bring back the neocron 1 models any day of the fuckin' WEEK. I miss my midnight blue gentleman's suit. [ edited ]
IMG
vs
IMG
[ edited ]RUINED the atmosphere.
With this change my characters and Neocron died. Not only the models, also the movement is totaly crap.
btw: I dont like how you use the word gay
With this change my characters and Neocron died. Not only the models, also the movement is totaly crap.
btw: I dont like how you use the word gay
Yeah the character movement is hilarious. Try crouch-walking. :D But for someone who has never played 'Cron 1 (apart from the offline demo) the models aren't too bad. Can you change your characters clothes in Neocron 2?
It also looks funny to press the forward and backward buttons at the same time.
It also looks funny to press the forward and backward buttons at the same time.
I gotta try that next time I play 'Cron. :D
Was Kirk supposed to answer some of these questions this week or was it next week? I know he had family stuff to deal with, I just don't want this thread to be forgotten.
were u seriously expecting something else? he wanted to try last week, but thought it would probably not be until this week :p
were u seriously expecting something else? he wanted to try last week, but thought it would probably not be until this week :p
no i wasnt actually :p I thought it suspicious enough when he postponed it the first time. But I think at this point I may as well give him the benefit of the doubt. Although Nidhogg would call me nay say-yer but i dont think even he is still around lol.
no i wasnt actually :p I thought it suspicious enough when he postponed it the first time. But I think at this point I may as well give him the benefit of the doubt. Although Nidhogg would call me nay say-yer but i dont think even he is still around lol.
Yeah, where is our ol' Hog!?
Doc Holliday
17-09-11, 12:12
bp forum community manager. he gets paid for his services to reakktor. has done for a while. The mods as far as i know are all volunteers so we only see the guys. everyone whos an employee is workin on bp.
Even with problems in the family nobody can say me it is impossible to find 30 min within one month. This shows which value the loyal nc-community has. And I am so stupid to check this thread every day with my last piece of hope to read something like there if more than an one year old artwork :lol:
Really, how stupid are we??
Chuck Norris
17-09-11, 20:30
Even with problems in the family nobody can say me it is impossible to find 30 min within one month. This shows which value the loyal nc-community has. And I am so stupid to check this thread every day with my last piece of hope to read something like there if more than an one year old artwork :lol:
Really, how stupid are we??
ROFL :D :D :D
Chuck Norris
17-09-11, 20:32
Capitalism destroying your favorite things one day at A time!
So kirk, when are we getting the promised update?
bp forum community manager. he gets paid for his services to reakktor. has done for a while. The mods as far as i know are all volunteers so we only see the guys. everyone whos an employee is workin on bp.
Niddy doesnt even seem to be on the BP forums anymore.
Havent seen a post by him in months it feels like.
Doc Holliday
21-09-11, 12:41
Niddy doesnt even seem to be on the BP forums anymore.
Havent seen a post by him in months it feels like.
hmmm. odd. did he move on too? that would be a great loss to the community imo.
So kirk, when are we getting the promised update?
Or any info at all.
Been checking this thread daily, man.
Drachenpaladin
21-09-11, 16:56
Niddhogg had to step back due to his job and stuff...
From the Black Prophecy board:
Nobody killed him and he is healthy and alive. Unfortunately his real-life job is eating most of his daily time and so he had to step back a bit. Aquarii is now the English Lead Gamemaster and your person of contact for any issues you might have.
http://blackprophecy.gamigo.com/forum/showpost.php?p=151335&postcount=3
lead GM for BP only, right or is it for NC too?
lead GM for BP only, right or is it for NC too?
There are no NC gm's!
There are no NC gm's!
they couldnt munch all the sandwiches. no wonder they had to give up with stomach illness
i just wonder from what Kirk got ill from, he didnt taste even a small canapes :D
Aww come on guys, it's only been a month...
Maybe someone should post over on BP forums again :lol:
Aww come on guys, it's only been a month...
Maybe someone should post over on BP forums again :lol:
nono, only 3 weeks! according to kk time he still has a week
(anti-cheat patch promised: 3 months, actual time before first try: 1 year and a bit)
though joking aside, if it is truly a family problem keeping away from KK, then I'd excuse him for not doing it himself. Though that he didn't get someone else to at least give a heads-up is classic KK again though.
Powerpunsh
22-09-11, 03:26
I think we should really be patient in this case. :angel:
kk should hire a new person meanwhile!
Fool me one, shame on me.
Fool me twenty times, shame on you.
That's how it goes, right? :confused:
Chuck Norris
22-09-11, 06:38
http://cache.ohinternet.com/images/b/b1/Doing-it-wrong.jpg
Geist-[uTw]-
22-09-11, 08:31
Even if Kirk has family issues to solve or Black Prophecy requires Kirk's full attention (they making the same mistakes like in Neocron ^^), why doesn´t he delegate this questions-answer-task to someone familiar with Neocron ...like Chenoa.
I guess we are alone
There are no NC gm's!
Sure, the team is still there, me 2 :)
Will ask Kirk for an update asap, but can't promise anything!!!
Chen
Sure, the team is still there, me 2 :)
Will ask Kirk for an update asap, but can't promise anything!!!
Chen
Chenoa we love you Greeting
Page
Sure, the team is still there, me 2 :)
Will ask Kirk for an update asap, but can't promise anything!!!
Chen
back to square one.
Doc Holliday
23-09-11, 13:15
back to square one.
certainly feels like it.
ps terra just went off line
Sure, the team is still there, me 2 :)
Really? because over a year ago you promised us a storyline/event? (and yes, I looked up the original thread)
Consider the BP forum reminder done. I'll take care of it. ;)
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